Angel Season 6 Comic

[bishopcruz]

Figured I'd start a thread here to see if anyone else has been reading the Angel comics that have been coming out recently. Which ones to people like? Which ones do they not?

I think that the most recent ones, the ones from IDW are in some ways better than the Dark Horse comics from a few years ago, and in some way worse.

A Season 6 Angel comic is also in the works right now, so what would you all like to see in it?

Starting things off, I have read all the IDW comics that have released so far, (with the exception of Shadow Puppets.) and they have really been hit or miss.

The three Spike one-shots, as well as Spike vs Dracula, while a little spotty did have some fun stories, and kept the humor in it that so many of the other Angel comics have been missing.

I also very much enjoyed Spike: Old times, and Lost and Found. They really felt like they could have been lost episodes of the show.

The others, Asylum, Old Friends, Aud Lang Syne, and The Curse just didn't seem to fit well with the Angelverse, they weren't horrible, but I didn't find them particularly inspiring either.

So, what does everyone else think?

[Chosen1]

I haven't really read any of the Angel comics, but if they were to make a season 6 in comics I would for sure start reading, haha.

[ThePoet's<3]

Well, so far I've only read the first in the Spike: Shadow Puppets series. And I LOVE it!!

There's just enough self-deprecation of the character to be enjoyable and the inflections, nuances and intonations of Spike's dialogue are spot-on!

I also like the Spike/Lorne team up! Good choice as they don't have a whole lot to do with one another in Angel 5.

I have an order in for the rest of the series as well as an order for Spike: Asylum. And with your suggestions above - I may have a busy (and expensive :D ) summer until the next issue of Buffy comes out!!

I am really looking forward to the Angel 6 series!!

I'm a Spuffy fan so I do hope something is addressed in one of the issues about Buffy and Spike. I also hope that the issues between Buffy and Angel regarding W&H will be resolved as well.

I look for the comics following the TV Series. Occasional cross-over stories with an occasional character guest appearance but I don't see either of our beloved vampires becoming a permanent fixture in the Buffyverse any longer.

In that case - I want Spike to have a Kick-ass girlfriend who likes him just the way he is and they can "team up" to their hearts content. The writers can call and talk to me if they need any specifics. :D

I actually would like for the two vamps to "split" but yet be in contact. Working separately but as a team. Partners. They are both too Alpha to report to each other, but one of the things I like more and more about Spike and Angel were the episodes toward the end of the series when they began to work together - an Odd Couple arrangement.

And just for grins and giggles I would like for Spike to become a writer and sell a critically - acclaimed book!! lol!!!!:D

[Dorian's Kitten]

Well, so far I've only read the first in the Spike: Shadow Puppets series. And I LOVE it!!

There's just enough self-deprecation of the character to be enjoyable and the inflections, nuances and intonations of Spike's dialogue are spot-on!

I also like the Spike/Lorne team up! Good choice as they don't have a whole lot to do with one another in Angel 5.

I may have to check that out-Spike/Lorne would be adorable.


I am really looking forward to the Angel 6 series!!

I'm a Spuffy fan so I do hope something is addressed in one of the issues about Buffy and Spike. I also hope that the issues between Buffy and Angel regarding W&H will be resolved as well.

I look for the comics following the TV Series. Occasional cross-over stories with an occasional character guest appearance but I don't see either of our beloved vampires becoming a permanent fixture in the Buffyverse any longer.
[QUOTE]

I think that is what Joss has in mind. He has said that he could use the characters if he wants to and that he would be.

[QUOTE=ThePoet's<3;20217]
I actually would like for the two vamps to "split" but yet be in contact. Working separately but as a team. Partners. They are both too Alpha to report to each other, but one of the things I like more and more about Spike and Angel were the episodes toward the end of the series when they began to work together - an Odd Couple arrangement.

And just for grins and giggles I would like for Spike to become a writer and sell a critically - acclaimed book!! lol!!!!:D

Yeah-it would have nice to see how that settled out in another season. I actually think Spike is not very Alpha when Angel is around-but if they split he may be able to come in to his own.

And as for grins and giggles:
Maybe with a little help from Lorne's contacts, he could be a Rock Star.
Also-I want Angel to come to him for help writing a love letter.

[bishopcruz]

I also forgot to mention the Angel: Character Spotlghts. They did one for each of the major characters from Angel, even Doyle! Well, almost all, the lack of a Cordy one really bummed me out. The best ones were the Doyle, Wesley and Illyria ones. Continuity on them can be a little fuzzy, but they are definitely good reads.

I'll check out Shadow Puppets, Spike and Lorne might be a good team, though I wonder if I'll be able to get over the whole 'Lorne wants to be done with all the fighting.' thing. We'll see.

[Leloo]

I read some of the Dark Horse Angel comics years ago but I actually gave it up because I didn't think they were as well done as the Buffy ones. I did enjoy them though and I actually meant to pick the Spike one shots up but just never got around to it.

I'd be thrilled if there ever was a season 6 comic. That'd be awesome :D

[Fallen Angelus]

I've been reading the IDW books since they first debuted. They've gotten a lot better over time, but initially I wasn't especially thrilled with them.

I've yet to pick up the first issue of Spike: Shadow Puppets. I kinda dug Lynch's work on Asylum, so I'm hopeful, but I think the idea of Spike going all puppety is a bit of overkill.

[vampmogs]

I haven't been a big fan of the Ats comics in terms of storytelling and stories. I think the pages are wonderfully drawn and like the shiney paper they get :D But the characters don't sound like the characters, the same way the un-canon Btvs comics suck as well.

With Joss writing them for s6 I'm sure they'll blow the other comics away, just like s8 has with all the other Btvs comics before it.

[ThePoet's<3]

I've been reading the IDW books since they first debuted. They've gotten a lot better over time, but initially I wasn't especially thrilled with them.

I've yet to pick up the first issue of Spike: Shadow Puppets. I kinda dug Lynch's work on Asylum, so I'm hopeful, but I think the idea of Spike going all puppety is a bit of overkill.


The Spike Shadow Puppets does not compare well with Spike: Asylum. The Asylum is an awesome read - and I just LOVE the artists!!! I hope they keep the artists for Angel Season 6 that have worked on Asylum and Shadow Puppets!!

Shadow Puppets is "lighter" than Asylum. But it's an enjoyable read - if you like Spike!!

[vampmogs]

Hi everyone :wave:

I've been hearing a lot more about the upcoming Ats season six comic that will be happening soon and thought that it deserved its own thread, and perhaps one day after its release even its own section ;)

Basically what we know is that this is going to take place after Not Fade Away and I get the impression it will take place pretty much straight away after the alley and not sometime after like what happened with Btvs season eight. The series will be a 12 Issue mini series and Whedon describes it as being very 'intense' because of this.

Whedon also states that he is pretty much following what he had always planned for the sixth season of Ats, except without Wes of course, and this gives us to some clues what it may be about. I'm betting that Gunn has been turned into a vampire, LA is a hellzone and that the fang gang are in serious trouble. I didn't spoiler-tag any of these things because it is just speculation and not fact.

More importantly Whedon himself has stated that this "isn't pretty" so I'm betting that whatever is going to happen it is going to be very bad.

What is everyone elses thoughts on the issue, are you happy it is happening, what do you expect will happen?

vampmogs :D

[KingofCretins]

Well, since Season 8 is an unquestioned commercial and critical success so far, I'm sure this Angel Season 6 mini-series (more of a coda than a season) will also be awesome.

[slaycandy]

Oh wow. I never even knew they were thinking of releasing a season six comic! I am so out of touch with the joss-verse these days it is unbelievable! So thanks for adding this thread, it's got me excited now!

I love the way Joss has described this as 'intense' and from the sounds of it, this could be a lot darker, which is just how I like my Angel stuff to be, heh. :D

If season 8 is anything to go by, the artwork for the covers should be awesome, and if they do have a dark edge to them, then all the better for art-ing with, :D I hope they release some awesome promos for the comics. *fingers crossed*

Sayjay
xox

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Hi everyone :wave:
I'm betting that Gunn has been turned into a vampire, LA is a hellzone and that the fang gang are in serious trouble. I didn't spoiler-tag any of these things because it is just speculation and not fact.

What is everyone elses thoughts on the issue, are you happy it is happening, what do you expect will happen?



I'm certainly happy it's happening. While I thought the Shrodingery ending of NFA was perfect for AtS, that doesn't mean I'm not curious about what happens next.

I'd love to see a Vamp!Gunn - perhaps a malicious wish, since he'd have become his own worst nightmare, the thing he's always feared and fought... even more so than Buffy, perhaps? I mean, she feared becoming a vampire in Nightmares, but Gunn's loss of his sister made the thing even more personal. Buffy never had to see someone she loved turned into a vampire except in the comic case of Willow (doubt that Jesse had really captured her heart...and Harmony wasn't exactly her soulmate).

Rambling....anyway, I'd love to see a) how they got out of that alley and b) how they deal with the fallout of the apocalypse they brought upon themselves (and LA). The idea of the diminished Fang Gang on the run (Spike, Angel and Illyria with a hint of turning back into Fred?) in hell-torn LA could be lots of fun.

An all-demon fang gang could be interesting (well, god, demon, whatever Illyria is), and perhaps necessary if the stakes (sorry) have been raised by the unleashing of the senior partner's demon dawgs (and giants and dragons).

I know they don't have much room in 12 issues, but one thing I'd like to see is a return of Anne and Kate. I always wanted to know what happend to them...for me they represent the human dimension of LA, the people that Angel is fighting for (as opposed to the ones he's fighting against). But perhaps they've gone beyond the "for" of things? All is chaos and pain and whatnot, just trying to stay alive?

I feel that Lorne's probably out of the game, and perhaps out of the city...but who knows?

[vampmogs]

I'm certainly happy it's happening. While I thought the Shrodingery ending of NFA was perfect for AtS, that doesn't mean I'm not curious about what happens next.

You've hit the nail on the head here. This is the exact reason I asked wether or not people would be happy about this :) I know a lot of people who loved the way Ats ended and really don't want to know what happened, rather they want to imagine themselves what happened. I personally want to see what happened, I'd be happy either way. I think in this case especially the fact Joss had plans for more gives us enough reason to want more, to see what he planned finally be laid out.

I'd love to see a Vamp!Gunn - perhaps a malicious wish, since he'd have become his own worst nightmare, the thing he's always feared and fought... even more so than Buffy, perhaps? I mean, she feared becoming a vampire in Nightmares, but Gunn's loss of his sister made the thing even more personal. Buffy never had to see someone she loved turned into a vampire except in the comic case of Willow (doubt that Jesse had really captured her heart...and Harmony wasn't exactly her soulmate).

I agree, it would be extremely interesting to see :D I'd love to see how he deals with it, perhaps in some ways he could be self-loathing? Lawson is a perfect example of a vampire not being entirely happy with who and what he is. I picture vamp Gunn being something that despises himself to some extent yet still kills- and might I add would be a very lethal vampire given his extraordinary fighting capabilities as a human.

Rambling....anyway, I'd love to see a) how they got out of that alley and b) how they deal with the fallout of the apocalypse they brought upon themselves (and LA). The idea of the diminished Fang Gang on the run (Spike, Angel and Illyria with a hint of turning back into Fred?) in hell-torn LA could be lots of fun.

Well there always was that speculation of bringing Fred back, didn't Joss plan to seperate the two of them into different entities? I wonder if he'll do such a thing with only 12 issues?

An all-demon fang gang could be interesting (well, god, demon, whatever Illyria is), and perhaps necessary if the stakes (sorry) have been raised by the unleashing of the senior partner's demon dawgs (and giants and dragons).

The gang slowly immersed themselves more in the demon world so it is kind of fitting all humans would slowly die out of the group- though regrettably.

I know they don't have much room in 12 issues, but one thing I'd like to see is a return of Anne and Kate. I always wanted to know what happend to them...for me they represent the human dimension of LA, the people that Angel is fighting for (as opposed to the ones he's fighting against). But perhaps they've gone beyond the "for" of things? All is chaos and pain and whatnot, just trying to stay alive?

I'd love to see Kate again and yeah Anne would be cool :)

I feel that Lorne's probably out of the game, and perhaps out of the city...but who knows?

I had actually forgotten all about Lorne, silly me. I do wonder, I think he'll be in the comics but what role he'll play will be interesting.

[Ojuice5001]

One interesting thing about Gunn, his sister, and vampirism is that Gunn's sister was trying to turn him into a vampire, and Gunn staked her to keep that from happening. And it must have been really hard for him to have to do that.

So just think, if Gunn's fate is to become a vampire anyway, then in a sense, his staking of his sister was for nothing. That's gotta suck. ;)

[Amber]

OOh, yeah, there is no way Gunn makes it out as a human so I would love to see him as a vamp. He would make an amazing vampire because he hates vamps more than anything, he may even suffer some self loathing after being sired.

It seems so unlikely that Angel, Spike, and Illyria ALL make it, but hey. What can ya do? I'm sure some miraculous event happens where they are saved. OOH, you know what I wish would happen. The demons are closing in, and they begin to fight when there's all of a sudden and huge light coming from the sky, and it's a freakin Slayer Cell dropping down from a helicopter to help. That would be awesome and would even the odds a bit, but I know Joss is sorta tryin to keep the two shows separate for more than one reason. Though, realistically, there no way that this major mini-apocalypse is happening in L.A. and Buffy and gang haven't heard about it. Distrust of Angel for heading Wolfram and Hart is one thing, but to ignore his bringing down of a major branch as well as The Circle of the Black Thorn would be just silly. Even if Buffy didn't help, surely there is a Slayer cell in Los Angeles, I mean come on, it's a major city with a major demon/vamp population.

We all know that Joss planned to make Illyria become more reachable and somewhat more like Fred through Fred's memories and I don't remember exactly how he even explained it but it was something along the lines of the fact that Fred wasn't ENTIRELY lost in Illyria, and remnants of her did in fact remain. I for one would LOVE to see what he would do with this, especially after reading the Illyria Spotlight comic, which I don't want to spoil for anyone, but I will say that Illyria experiences a truly emotional moment in regards to Fred.

I would love to see Kate again myself. She sorta just slowly disappeared and it seemed like no one ever missed her. Man, she was great in Sense and Sensitivity.

[ThePoet's<3]

NOOOooo... Not Vamp Gunn!! NOOOOO!! BOOO!! He will be EVIL!!
E-V-I-L! (See Souless Spike Thread...:roll: ) And I would rather have all of them make it from the alley or none at all. Hate to say but Gunn or Illyria can die but not the Vamps!!

I've heard that the Slayers will be no help at all. It will not be Buffy who rescues The A-Team. Which I guess in a way would be the best - so as not to steal the A-Team's thunder.

I don't like the sound of "intense"... It's too...intense for me. :err:

[vampmogs]

OOh, yeah, there is no way Gunn makes it out as a human so I would love to see him as a vamp. He would make an amazing vampire because he hates vamps more than anything, he may even suffer some self loathing after being sired.

Yeah I think it would be really interesting to see what he thinks of himself if he was sired.

It seems so unlikely that Angel, Spike, and Illyria ALL make it, but hey. What can ya do? I'm sure some miraculous event happens where they are saved. OOH, you know what I wish would happen. The demons are closing in, and they begin to fight when there's all of a sudden and huge light coming from the sky, and it's a freakin Slayer Cell dropping down from a helicopter to help. That would be awesome and would even the odds a bit, but I know Joss is sorta tryin to keep the two shows separate for more than one reason. Though, realistically, there no way that this major mini-apocalypse is happening in L.A. and Buffy and gang haven't heard about it. Distrust of Angel for heading Wolfram and Hart is one thing, but to ignore his bringing down of a major branch as well as The Circle of the Black Thorn would be just silly. Even if Buffy didn't help, surely there is a Slayer cell in Los Angeles, I mean come on, it's a major city with a major demon/vamp population.

As Poet pointed out Joss confirmed that the slayers would not be helping Angel- basically because as she said it would steal Angel's thunder :) I have to agree with this, as realistic as it would be I think being a show we can take liberties and that the fang gang will solve he problem, or die trying, all on their own. :D

We all know that Joss planned to make Illyria become more reachable and somewhat more like Fred through Fred's memories and I don't remember exactly how he even explained it but it was something along the lines of the fact that Fred wasn't ENTIRELY lost in Illyria, and remnants of her did in fact remain. I for one would LOVE to see what he would do with this, especially after reading the Illyria Spotlight comic, which I don't want to spoil for anyone, but I will say that Illyria experiences a truly emotional moment in regards to Fred.

Yeah I have a theory that Fred won't be resurrected as such but somehow her memories will form into Fred. After all didn't ghost Darla state to Connor that she has all Darla's memories and therefore doesn't that make a person who they are? I reckon it won't actually be the same Fred physically but almost like a clone of Fred, with the same memories and feelings.

I would love to see Kate again myself. She sorta just slowly disappeared and it seemed like no one ever missed her. Man, she was great in Sense and Sensitivity.

I never actually liked Kate in the series but it would be nice to have her back for old times sake. :)

[Julian]

At the moment, I have a couple of Auld Lang Syne comics… and it is my firm opinion… that IDW sucks. It just isn’t like the show at all.
However, if Joss is on the helm I think that we could get the continuation that we deserve. I think NFA was the perfect ending for Angel but I’m not complaining for a continuation. It’s certainly another hopeful sign of spinoff.

Things I expect:
Gunn will not become a vamp. That’s too obvious… or is it? Anyway, I expect more from Joss when it comes to saving Gunn.

Illyria will probably have a synthesis with Fred’s memories. I loved Fred and it will be painful to watch but it will most likely happen. I mean ATS is jam packed full of schizos: Angel/us, The Destroyer/Connor Reilly, Jasmine/Cordy and, of course, Fred/ Illyria. So it’s only to be expected.

The Vamps will survive. If they don’t, (or if they are dust, and then not resurrected somehow) Joss will get a lot of poopy mail from a lot of fans.

Connor will be in it. I am certain of that. But what part he will play is ambiguous at the moment because he has so many possibilities.

Wolfram and Hart should still be around but I don’t want them to be the big bad anymore. After NFA they kinda felt old.

Slayers! I don’t care about the Scoobies appearing just as long as there’ll be Slayers, or at least new magical characters like the fairies in season 8 issue 5Perhaps Dana will make an appearance she was so cool.

There are a lot of loose ends at the end of NFA that there are so much possibilities….

[NileQT87]

there is one angel comic that i love--it's the one where angel sort of goes into a dream-state meeting past victims. the bit with jenny in the movie usher outfit with the doors and then the confrontation with angelus and seeing nothing in the mirror...

that comic is beautiful, imo.

[vampmogs]

At the moment, I have a couple of Auld Lang Syne comics… and it is my firm opinion… that IDW sucks. It just isn’t like the show at all.
However, if Joss is on the helm I think that we could get the continuation that we deserve. I think NFA was the perfect ending for Angel but I’m not complaining for a continuation. It’s certainly another hopeful sign of spinoff.

Agreed. IMO Darkhorse Buffy comics sucked until Joss came on board for Fray, Tales of the Vampires and Tales of the Slayers. The Buffy comics were as terrible as the Ats ones.

Things I expect:
Gunn will not become a vamp. That’s too obvious… or is it? Anyway, I expect more from Joss when it comes to saving Gunn.

Most of us are speculating that this will happen because Joss said his original vision for season six would happen in these comics. Amy Acker stated that one of the planned tv movies Joss had in the works involved Gunn being turned into a vampire.

Illyria will probably have a synthesis with Fred’s memories. I loved Fred and it will be painful to watch but it will most likely happen. I mean ATS is jam packed full of schizos: Angel/us, The Destroyer/Connor Reilly, Jasmine/Cordy and, of course, Fred/ Illyria. So it’s only to be expected.

This is along the lines of what I think will happen. I think that her memories will manifest into their own entity even therefore creating Fred again, even if physically it isn't the same Fred from before.

The Vamps will survive. If they don’t, (or if they are dust, and then not resurrected somehow) Joss will get a lot of poopy mail from a lot of fans.

I agree, they'll survive.

Connor will be in it. I am certain of that. But what part he will play is ambiguous at the moment because he has so many possibilities.

Probably, I think that being a warzone it would be hard not to have Connor effected by the events somehow.

Wolfram and Hart should still be around but I don’t want them to be the big bad anymore. After NFA they kinda felt old.

Well it will have to be rebuilt all over again so I'm not sure if Joss will have time.

Slayers! I don’t care about the Scoobies appearing just as long as there’ll be Slayers, or at least new magical characters like the fairies in season 8 issue 5Perhaps Dana will make an appearance she was so cool.

Dana was always planned to return so it is likely she will return in the comics. :)

[wil_spike_bloodyhell]

I've been following the comics because I don't watch much TV outside of BBC America these days. Old Times & Lost and Found were probably among my favorites. I really enjoyed Asylum and I'm amused by Shadow Puppets. Though the plot in Shadow Puppets is a bit far-fetched, the writer has absolutely captured the characters of Spike and Lorne, right down to their idiosyncricies.

Spike VS Dracula had some great bits when they went back into past...but I always thought Dracula was a bit hokey.

I guess I'll keep reading as long as it keeps me entertained. If I don't dig the way a story is being done, I just don't finish that part of the story's run. Comic books in general seem to be hit-or-miss--- for example Marvel's books. I love certain books but hate how their handled at time, but I'm an old comics geek. I wait 'em out, and when it gets interesting again, I pounce.

Old habbits die hard.

[Julian]

I've read Auld Lang Syne and specials: Connor. And I think they all felt commercialised and kinda crappy. I haven't read the comics you have NileQT87, but given my experience with the others I can't say that IDW is doing a good job. The characters were, well... out of character IMO. Hopefully, Joss could fix that the way he fixed the buffy ones. The comics sucked, I liked some of the novels like India Cohen's story from Tales of the Slayer, but overall they were bland. The same is true with the Angel comics. I don't know, maybe it just isn't dark enough or "Joss" enough and thus has that biased fanfic feeling to it. Also, don't hate for this, I haven't read the Spike comics, but I think they shouldn't have made him into a puppet. It just makes him look like a copy cat of Angel. I mean, they could have thought of something better than the puppet plot to give to Spike, which isn't very original and is simply playing into the desires of Spike fans rather than creativity IMO.

[Leigh]

I'm really looking forward to "After The Fall" coming out later this year. Obviously, it won't have Wesley in it, which is a bummer. But I'm still looking forward to it.

And yeah, I prefer the comic "books" with the glossy paper rather than the less expensive comic book format as well.

[omri]

I havn't really been reading Angel comics. But i can't wait for season 6 in comic because of the lame but not so lame ending of the series.

[bishopcruz]

mogs, I agree with the voices of the characters feeling off on some of these. A few have had the voices spot on though. We'll see.

Still haven't gotten around to Shadow Puppets 2 yet, the first was cute, so we'll see how it goes. I think that overall though Lynch is good, but not great. There was no way Spike should have had the rep he did in the Asylum, I mean that was ridiculous.

Here's hoping that 'After the Fall' is good. I really wanted to see what happened after the end of S5 of Angel.

[ThePoet's<3]

Since posting I've also read Spike vs. Dracula - very good read - LOVE the ending!

I also read

Angel: The Curse - very good
Spike: Old Wounds - Really good story plot! Spike is suspected as the Black Dahlia Murderer!! Interesting!
Angel: Auld Lang Syne - also a good read.

But my favorite so far is Spike: Asylum. Brian Lynch seems to be a fan of Spike - so he writes him VEEEEEERY well.

Shadow Puppets is a nod to Spike fans - it did seem a bit "copy-cat" of Angel, but Spike as a puppet is WAY more funnier than Angel! Broody Angel Puppet vs. Naughty Spike Puppet?? Oh - naughty gets my vote all the time! :D

I've also read the Spike and Dru comic James had a hand in writing... It's a bit interesting in plot. Shows how Spike has always thought Dru had more of a "thing" for Angel. I think this is a good setup for "other" Spike and... relationships...:D

Juliet Landau did not like the way she was portrayed (visually) by the Dark Horse artists so she didn't like the comic very much. And I agree. Artwork was - yucky.

Hands down - Franco Uro, David Messina are the better artists for IDW. I would throw Chen in for Dark Horse. If the three of them work the Angel comic - WOW!!

[BAF]

Some of the Angel and Spike comics are better then others.Brian Lynch's Spike:Asylum and Shadow Puppets are becoming canon.Joss let him bring one of the characters from them into Angel:After The Fall.

I'm a Spuffy fan so I do hope something is addressed in one of the issues about Buffy and Spike. I also hope that the issues between Buffy and Angel regarding W&H will be resolved as well.

I look for the comics following the TV Series. Occasional cross-over stories with an occasional character guest appearance but I don't see either of our beloved vampires becoming a permanent fixture in the Buffyverse any longer.


I think that is what Joss has in mind. He has said that he could use the characters if he wants to and that he would be.

Well,Mr. Lynch has said none of the Buffy characters will be appearing in After The Fall other then maybe some little nods at most.Even if they did,I don't know how much spuffy you would get between Buffy and Spike given Brian Lynch's views on spuffy vs. bangel.He made those views known a year ago when Asylum was just starting and a lot of spuffy fans were not happy with him or what he said and believed while bangel fans were thrilled.


With Angel;After The Fall though,I don't think ships are going to be playing a part in this considering how dark and bleak this story is supposed to be.

[bishopcruz]

Agreed. IMO Darkhorse Buffy comics sucked until Joss came on board for Fray, Tales of the Vampires and Tales of the Slayers. The Buffy comics were as terrible as the Ats ones.

Actually the old Buffy comics were even worse than the old Angel ones, at least the Dark Horse Angel comics had the feel of the show down. Though agreed that IDW has been spotty at best when it comes to the Angel comics. Outside of some of the Spike comics (Not Asylum) and the Character spotlights, it has been pretty bad.


Probably, I think that being a warzone it would be hard not to have Connor effected by the events somehow.

I hope Connor has a big role to play, as I think he can work much better now that he is a bit better adjusted.




Dana was always planned to return so it is likely she will return in the comics. :)

I would just have to wonder how. For a 12 issue series, there is a ton of ground to cover. I think she is kinda superfluous, though she was cool as hell.

Personally I would LOVE to see Wesley back, as he was my favorite character. I mean if Spike can get resurrected, why not Wes? Ok I am still in denial.

Also count me in on wanting to see Kate again, and Nina would be cool too.

[omri]

Well, here it is. We finally get a glimps of Angel season 6 in comic!
http://whedonesque.org/media/Angel-COVER1b.jpg

I think it looks amazing. I can't wait to read it when it's out!

[NileQT87]

things that are wishful thinking on my part:

* more vamp quartet flashbacks.

* finding out liam and drusilla's last names and darla's real human name (hey, we found out william pratt, kendra young and faith lehane!).

* drusilla getting an emotional arc! a finality for angel and spike with her.

* illyria bringing back wesley (please! i want to see wesley back). i want to desperately see that fred/illyria/wesley dynamic.

* i want to see angel and connor working together and bonding. i'd also like to see another confrontation between connor and ghost-darla.

* dead-holland and -lilah in the hell office of wolfram & hart.

* you know who i'd love to see? kathy. angel's little sister. i once read a time-travel fanfic piece (unfinished, unfortunately) and it was brilliant. i think something else could be done with kathy.

* the shanshu prophecy.

those are the sort of things that i think would be worthy of the show. vamp-gunn, unfortunately, sounds like a bad one-episode plot.

but remember, buffy season 8 was supposed to be short originally, too, but then they realized they couldn't fit it in in that many issues, so it grew to a huge amount of issues being discussed.

eventually, i want to see a finality to all the characters with their destinies in comic-book form. and yes, this includes buffy deciding between angel, spike or whomever she ends up with, or if she follows the same fate as all the slayers before her--dies young. or perhaps she'll be the one to live a full life.

[Jenni Lou]

oooh, I do like that. It definitely seems to be right after Not Fade Way. :)

Buffy s8 is really good so I have expectations for this series too!

[omri]

Me too! Though Joss's is not the one to work on it. so we'll see//

[Jenni Lou]

Whedon also states that he is pretty much following what he had always planned for the sixth season of Ats, except without Wes of course, and this gives us to some clues what it may be about. I'm betting that Gunn has been turned into a vampire, LA is a hellzone and that the fang gang are in serious trouble. I didn't spoiler-tag any of these things because it is just speculation and not fact.

ooh, I hadn't heard that about Gunn. Guess it makes sense. I have to admit though, I don't really think about where the series go after they end.


I know they don't have much room in 12 issues, but one thing I'd like to see is a return of Anne and Kate.

I feel that Lorne's probably out of the game, and perhaps out of the city...but who knows?

Man, I always loved Kate. I know I am in the minority but I did like her. :)

Lorne is like my fave character. I imagine he may pop in for an issue or two. I think he is still on the periphery; he's just not aprt of the core anymore.


We all know that Joss planned to make Illyria become more reachable and somewhat more like Fred through Fred's memories and I don't remember exactly how he even explained it but it was something along the lines of the fact that Fred wasn't ENTIRELY lost in Illyria, and remnants of her did in fact remain.

I would love to see Kate again myself. She sorta just slowly disappeared and it seemed like no one ever missed her. Man, she was great in Sense and Sensitivity.

I like that about Illyria..hints of Fed shining through....

And she was great in Reprise/Ephiphany too!! ;)

I mean ATS is jam packed full of schizos: Angel/us, The Destroyer/Connor Reilly, Jasmine/Cordy and, of course, Fred/ Illyria.


:lol: I never really realized that. It certainly seems to be a recurring motif!


Connor will be in it. I am certain of that. But what part he will play is ambiguous at the moment because he has so many possibilities.


Good point. Like Lorne, I am sure Connor will pop up in some capacity. He just may be more recurring than Lorne. I guess we'll see!

[Jenni Lou]

'Tis true, I suppose. But then again, he wasn't highly active in the series for the bulk of its run either...Greenwalt & Co. seemed to do more than he did. In any case, it's canon and that's what's important to me. :D

[NileQT87]

dun, dun, dun! angel season 6 is coming out soon... and i'm even more excited about that than i was for buffy season 8. my beloved angel is back! ...and he's even wielding his trusty broadsword and byzantine axe. the "billowy coat, king of pain" is back! eeeeee!

[omri]

Well, I can say that im even more exited two, because of the sucky but not so sucky ending ;) .

[Phoenix]

The cover looks so awesome, i cant wait to get it! When is it actually out?

[omri]

The cover looks so awesome, i cant wait to get it! When is it actually out?

I have no idea. I think this cover is variant. But im not sure :/

[vampmogs]

This is the kind of feeling I have to. I can't help but be a little cynical about the Ats comics because Whedon isn't writing in it, hopefully I will be proven wrong but it does worry me a little. :s

Though the picture looks great, looks very much like what was planned for the original s6.

[omri]

In other thought, I'm kinda disapointed from this cover. I like it, it looks really good.. but where the other charecter are? I mean, Why are they not on the cover? Is that mean that they are dead? cause they were in a middle of a war when the series ended. you think that it's saying something about the charecters destiny?

[ThePoet's<3]

Some of the Angel and Spike comics are better then others.Brian Lynch's Spike:Asylum and Shadow Puppets are becoming canon.Joss let him bring one of the characters from them into Angel:After The Fall.

OH WHICH ONE?!?!?!?!?! I HOPE IT'S BECK! BECK!! BECK!!!

She is so SUPER KEWL!! And we need a new "girl" in the all-boy club. I can't imagine Beta George - that would be unlikely.

And if Spike gets to stay around in Angel - well I could get some "SPECK"-love going REALLY easy!!! or Toki! They both adore Spike!!

Franco Uru and Tony Harris are the artists for the covers. The Varient is by Tony Harris. Uru keeps the characters looking more like the actors who portrayed them.

I know what you mean Vampmogs about the story lines. However, it seems he has quite a lot of confidence in Lynch to take this on. And it was from Asylum he was introduced to Lynch's work.

Even Buffy S8 is being turned over to other writers. The Faith arc will start the first change with Brian K. Vaughn. He wrote an excellent episode for Locke/Sawyer on LOST - "The Brig" - one of my favorites of Season 3.

I'm confident Joss has picked good writers for both comics.:)

[vampmogs]

I know what you mean Vampmogs about the story lines. However, it seems he has quite a lot of confidence in Lynch to take this on. And it was from Asylum he was introduced to Lynch's work.

Even Buffy S8 is being turned over to other writers. The Faith arc will start the first change with Brian K. Vaughn. He wrote an excellent episode for Locke/Sawyer on LOST - "The Brig" - one of my favorites of Season 3.

I'm confident Joss has picked good writers for both comics.:)

Yeah I see what you mean, for some reason I just am not as worried about Btvs as I am Ats though and it really should be the other way around! When Joss had minimal involvement with Btvs it began to worsen, Ats was usually left up to other writers other than Joss and managed ok. I'm sure I am just worrying for nothing, it should be very good. :)

In other thought, I'm kinda disapointed from this cover. I like it, it looks really good.. but where the other charecter are? I mean, Why are they not on the cover? Is that mean that they are dead? cause they were in a middle of a war when the series ended. you think that it's saying something about the charecters destiny?

Well in the first issue of Buffy s8 she was the only one on the cover, this doesn't mean all the other characters were dead ;) I doubt Joss would have killed off all the characters, I wonder if he has killed off any? I just think Angel is only on the cover because well.. it is his show :roll: like it is Buffy's in season eight.

[omri]

Not really the same thing. in this cover you can actually see Angel with weapons and in the middle of the war. In buffy we knew that the charecters remained a live cause we saw that in Chosen. So... Yeah.

Yeah I see what you mean, for some reason I just am not as worried about Btvs as I am Ats though and it really should be the other way around! When Joss had minimal involvement with Btvs it began to worsen, Ats was usually left up to other writers other than Joss and managed ok. I'm sure I am just worrying for nothing, it should be very good. :)


Well in the first issue of Buffy s8 she was the only one on the cover, this doesn't mean all the other characters were dead ;) I doubt Joss would have killed off all the characters, I wonder if he has killed off any? I just think Angel is only on the cover because well.. it is his show :roll: like it is Buffy's in season eight.

My first post with cover turned out to be the variant. So here is the main cover:
http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0708/13/angel1.jpg

[NileQT87]

i think i prefer the variant. a bit more spoilery (in that angel is so far surviving in battle--plus, it looks like he's going after that dragon), rather than a drawing of what is essentially based on the season 2 btvs promos.

but the writing all over it makes me think of prophecies. love the angel wings that were often used in ats promos and box art.

i actually prefer the less colored-pencil art in this case. maybe it's because there's not a lot of contrast in the colored pencil drawing... and i've seen better drawings of db. too much magenta. perhaps they should have used flesh tones on him with a glow from the background, rather than color him magenta too.

here's a slight color-tweaking that i think perks it up a lot: http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/7941/atsrecolorpn8.jpg

[vampmogs]

Not really the same thing. in this cover you can actually see Angel with weapons and in the middle of the war. In buffy we knew that the charecters remained a live cause we saw that in Chosen. So... Yeah.

Oh than I can see your point on that. Perhaps the cover is just trying to show that Angel is alone in the war, not alone in the sense of being the only one still alive, but alone as in how he feels? I think it has been established Spike has at least survived so we know he isn't the only one that survived, but perhaps the gang have been split up?

From the other cover you gave it looks like Angel is actually praying? I'm not sure if he is, his hands might just be placed that way but if he is I wonder what this means or is supposed to represent?

[NileQT87]

the praying hands is something that strikes me as something of david's influence (he's strongly catholic, whereas joss is atheist, but even joss can't help but play with religious ideas). i always felt that liam's catholic fear of god instilled by his father, angelus' mocking of god, etc... it seems it was always one of his main influences for his actions. liam, angelus and angel all seem obsessed with god. angelus' obsession with nuns isn't so much about corrupting the pure, as it was about mocking god. there was always a little bit of creeping-in religiosity into angel.

that pose is based on several season 2 btvs promo shots, including this one (it's even the same red velvet shirt and hand angle--the head is the only thing they changed--they went for the straight ahead angle):

http://davidboreanazweb.com/gallery/albums/TVShows/BTVS/SeasonTwo/Promotionals/med_b2_angel_promo_9.jpg

again in other promo shots from this era, there were a few others with the praying hands. the "the end" ats poster (which is actually a season 2 btvs promo) that the wb used to advertise the series finale with, also has somewhat of the prayer/contemplation pose.

remember in "in the dark" when marcus asks angel what he wants most, and he answers "forgiveness".

angel cares a whole lot about being forgiven for his sins--it's also about earning redemption. humanity also means that he has been forgiven, in that he will not suffer the fate of the demon--he doesn't want to go to hell.

[vampmogs]

the praying hands is something that strikes me as something of david's influence (he's strongly catholic, whereas joss is atheist, but even joss can't help but play with religious ideas). i always felt that liam's catholic fear of god instilled by his father, angelus' mocking of god, etc... it seems it was always one of his main influences for his actions. liam, angelus and angel all seem obsessed with god. angelus' obsession with nuns isn't so much about corrupting the pure, as it was about mocking god. there was always a little bit of creeping-in religiosity into angel.

I agree about Angelus and wanting to mock god, after all he was the one that taught Penn and Penn would carve a cross into his victim's cheek as a way to mock god. This seems to be influenced by Angelus and his teachings, even Angelus' name is about mocking god as it plays on the idea of an Angel, something his sister calls him when she believes he has returned to them.

that pose is based on several season 2 btvs promo shots, including this one (it's even the same red velvet shirt and hand angle--the head is the only thing they changed--they went for the straight ahead angle):

I had never seen this image before, but did think that on the cover Angel looked like he did during Btvs s2 and now I know why! :)

again in other promo shots from this era, there was a few others with the praying hands. the "the end" ats poster (which is actually a season 2 btvs promo) that the wb used to advertise the series finale with, also has somewhat of the prayer/contemplation pose.

Yeah I saw that promo, it seemed to be taken around 'Becoming' as I think they were wearing the same clothes.

angel cares a whole lot about being forgiven for his sins--it's also about earning redemption. humanity also means that he has been forgiven, in that he will not suffer the fate of the demon--he doesn't want to go to hell.

What do you feel about Angel's cynical attitude towards being redeemed in Ats s5? Do you believe this is healthy for him?

[NileQT87]

in season 5 he starts to loose faith in his destiny and in the possibilities for redemption, because he has been dumped on so many times, and spike showing up with a soul just knocks another chink in the little hope he has left that there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

what cordy brought back was hope that he has a chance--there's somebody up there that still cares about him, is still counting on him. so, it is more healthy, surely, when he believes in himself. jasmine being one of the ptbs and not being what he wants to be fighting for--that is one of the things that made him lose faith in being redeemed... almost like, maybe the ptbs aren't after the same thing he believes in, or that the ptbs are just playing games with him, manipulating his life for their own gain. it isn't until you're welcome that he feels there is a point to still hoping for redemption.

in not fade away, i think in some ways he's just so fed up with wolfram & hart, he's willing to give up a chance for redemption and forgiveness just to knock a chink in their pet project. he chooses what he believes is the right thing to do over any personal reward.

[vampmogs]

in season 5 he starts to loose faith in his destiny and in the possibilities for redemption, because he has been dumped on so many times, and spike showing up with a soul just knocks another chink in the little hope he has left that there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

I think what he also can't stand is that he is in this situation because he chose to be in it. He chose to be placed in this situation because it was the only hope for Connor, but choosing to place yourself in that place would be very frustrating. Especially when you've then got people like Spike making you doubt yourself as a champion, because it was all self-inflicted.

what cordy brought back was hope that he has a chance--there's somebody up there that still cares about him, is still counting on him. so, it is more healthy, surely, when he believes in himself. jasmine being one of the ptbs and not being what he wants to be fighting for--that is one of the things that made him lose faith in being redeemed... almost like, maybe the ptbs aren't after the same thing he believes in, or that the ptbs are just playing games with him, manipulating his life for their own gain. it isn't until you're welcome that he feels there is a point to still hoping for redemption.

Well in Lineage he is told that he is a merely a puppet to the powers, that must suck on some level. Angel did seem to loose faith in the powers by the end of it, he states how they aren't in his corner anymore. I just think he felt at a complete loss, that he was kidding himself that he could change this place, that he wasn't out doing what he wanted to be doing, that it was his own doing that put him in this situation and the powers appeared to have lost all hope in him. It is this what makes Cordy's appearence so more meaningful, she puts her guy back on track.

in not fade away, i think in some ways he's just so fed up with wolfram & hart, he's willing to give up a chance for redemption and forgiveness just to knock a chink in their pet project. he chooses what he believes is the right thing to do over any personal reward.

Angel signing away the Shanshu is most possibly one of my most favourite moments in the entire show, and for Angel as a character. It shows how selfless he can be, how no matter how much arguments he may have about who is the real champion and the Shanshu, really it isn't what is the most important thing to him.

And on that note I had totally forgotten about the Shanshu.. I wonder if anything will come of it in s6. Now I'm excited! :D

[Nikki]

Just so you know I've merged this thread with a similar one in the General Chats and renamed it so hopefully people will see it and not start a new one on the same topic :)

[BAF]

OH WHICH ONE?!?!?!?!?! I HOPE IT'S BECK! BECK!! BECK!!!

She is so SUPER KEWL!! And we need a new "girl" in the all-boy club. I can't imagine Beta George - that would be unlikely.

And if Spike gets to stay around in Angel - well I could get some "SPECK"-love going REALLY easy!!! or Toki! They both adore Spike!!

Franco Uru and Tony Harris are the artists for the covers. The Varient is by Tony Harris. Uru keeps the characters looking more like the actors who portrayed them.

I know what you mean Vampmogs about the story lines. However, it seems he has quite a lot of confidence in Lynch to take this on. And it was from Asylum he was introduced to Lynch's work.

Even Buffy S8 is being turned over to other writers. The Faith arc will start the first change with Brian K. Vaughn. He wrote an excellent episode for Locke/Sawyer on LOST - "The Brig" - one of my favorites of Season 3.

I'm confident Joss has picked good writers for both comics.:)

Tony Harris is the main cover artist and Uru is doing the variants like how Jo Chen is the main cover artis on Buffy with Georges Jeanty doing a variant for each issue.

Sorry to disappoint but Brian Lynch already confirmed on the IDW boards that Beck will not be appearing in Angel:After The Fall.The only Asylum and Shadow Puppets character who will make a appearence After The Fall is Betta George.

Here are his latest comments.

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=335358

Does Betta George appearing make Spike: Asylum and Spike: Shadow Puppets officially canon? Or is it just going to be left ambiguous?

I think ambiguous is the way to go. Truth be told, George is with some people who aren't Spike in the first couple'a issues, so maybe he knows him and maybe he doesn't. I would imagine as the series goes on maybe just maybe we'll see if ASYLUM and PUPPETS are now canonized kinda sorta, but truth be told, the point of AFTER THE FALL is definitely not to retroactively canonize earlier writing, so I won't go out of my way to do it. Everyone knows the point of AFTER THE FALL is to bring Wolverine into the ANGEL world.



Betta (two t's) George became canonized when Joss said "let's find a place for George. I like him." which was music to my ears because I wanted that too. Problem was, I killed him in ASYLUM, so he's back in SHADOW PUPPETS. It's true.

While ATF was being treatment-ized, I realized there was a NEW character that could very easily be Betta George, so I put George where that guy was in the treatment and here we are.



A while back on the IDW board,Brian also said that he would never pair Spike and Beck together.He sees her as a little sister to Spike,not a love interest.Toki would be a more likely choice for love interest but she won't be in Angel:After The Fall either.I don't think pairing characters is going to factor much into this story.It sounds like it's going to be very dark and serious.

Lynch did just comfirm on his my space page that Conner will be involved in Angel:After The Fall in some way.

[NileQT87]

i don't want to see comic characters taking spotlight from the show characters. i want to see a continuation of ats: the show, the story after not fade away. i don't want it to be just like a normal non-canon comic. let's keep the focus on angel, spike, illyria, gunn, possibly connor and whomever else from the SHOW they decide to resurrect or bring in.

sure, there can be new characters, just like the show brought in new faces for brief appearances or as new characters, but keep them the quality of the show and not to just have comic-made characters that the publishing company can say they created.

honestly, satsu over on btvs season 8 is turning into a bit of a mary sue comic addition (so far, her only personality trait is she has interesting hairstyles), though potentials turned slayers in general tended to border on that level of vagueness. it was nice at least to see vi and rhona (though i still wish amanda made it instead). ditto for andrew, warren, amy, catherine, ethan, angel, spike, etc... (now where's jonathan, lol.)

but i want the focus to be the kind of story that would have been seasons 6+ of ats, had it gone on. that level of emotionality and storytelling.

btvs season 8 has done a good job with bringing in the slayers vs. humanity theme--that's show-worthy. i just hope that the ats comic thinks big on the level that was consistant with the show. illyria is certainly a must to discover--someone who we definitely need to see the full-potential of (wesley is my personal little fan-wish and hope). the illyria/fred dynamic is something worthy.

i just hope idw's ats gets the same amount of love and devotion from joss as does btvs season 8. keep it out of the realm of excuses for comic book artist monster and spandex fanfiction (my biggest negative about most of the non-canon comics not scripted by joss). ats was first and foremost an epic character drama. also--i hope idw's artists use the same kind of discretion that btvs season 8 has done pretty well, and not make amy acker's breasts look like cordelia's. LOL! dress the characters like they would in the show, and don't make angel and spike look like he-man, either. the comics always look better when they draw the character's human likenesses and they don't put them on steroids and breast enhancement. also, let's avoid stuff like shadow puppets for ats season 6. making spike into a puppet reeks of bad fanfiction. let season 6 ats be done seriously.

[Impy]

I doubt the Angel comic will have as much success as Buffy Season 8. Joss talks about the posotives about writing comic books being budget. I am hoping and betting that we are going to get to see Angel slay the dragon.

[NileQT87]

i disagree. if done right, ats season 6 would be a hundred times better than btvs season 8. the characters were still interesting and growing when they left off. and as far as i'm concerned, faith is more an ats character now than a btvs one--wesley and angel had far more to do with her story than buffy and giles, imo.

if they are going the shadow puppets route, or making it a spike love-fest, yes. the comic will fail miserably. spike's great... when he's not the main focus. he's best in a cast of characters. angel, however, is what ats was about. he was the one who carried the plot and the stories. it is he who needs the utmost focus as the glue that holds everything together. heck, he was one of the main plot catalysts during his time on btvs. he was what the entire mythology ended up based around--tweaked to fit his character. all the rules of demonology and vampirism were created around making his character. he was the launching plate as far as being the first sympathetic demon/vampire. something that completely shaped btvs. if angel had not been introduced, buffy would have been like the movie (it wasn't entirely the fault of the people who took it away from joss, either). even with her close-knit friends, it would have been a monster-of-the-week with comic sidekicks and teens in school. it didn't get mythic or epic until you had angel introduce the redemptive depth and moved the show into being led by the characters, not wacky episode ideas.

sure, btvs is more popular as a lot of the people who prefer it to ats like the lighter humor, the more human side and the less serious/self-deprecating tone. which is why the comic will do better.

but if done right by joss, season 6 ats would be the better story, with characters that really had strong emotional arcs going the last we saw them. the buffy characters didn't have that kind of depth when chosen left off--faith, aside. and even faith was misused in btvs. it was on ats that her redemptive depth was fully explored. on btvs, she was just one of many slayers and used to make buffy play leader. on ats, she was emotionally on her journey to becoming something to be counted.

she'll never be one of the scoobies. she's one of the lost children and rejects like the ats cast was made up of. btvs started out with having lone figures who came together, but then they became the exclusive club. angel, cordelia, wesley, faith, spike and somewhat anya, never quite entered that club. for example: jonathan is a character who WAS the kind of people that once formed into the scoobies, yet he was consistently rejected by buffy. with ats, people where falling in and out of the main nucleus all the time. they really were a home for those picked up along the way, bound together by a common mission, new characters (like wesley, gunn, fred, lorne, connor--none of whom were there from the first episode) and even external characters (darla, lindsey, lilah) outside of the mission who grew into part of the family of misfits, despite often running on a different side.

continuation-wise, ats was the one where the story felt incomplete. in fact, it felt like just the beginning for angel, despite him being the longest running character in the jossverse. he's one of those characters where you can feel his character is just getting started. spike, faith and illyria also fit into the category of feeling like they are just beginning.

[Jenni Lou]

This is the kind of feeling I have to. I can't help but be a little cynical about the Ats comics because Whedon isn't writing in it, hopefully I will be proven wrong but it does worry me a little. :s

Though the picture looks great, looks very much like what was planned for the original s6.


I don't know. I mean one could argue that Joss wasn't as hugely involved with Angel than he was with Buffy. So perhaps the comic won't suffer as a result of his absence. Although time will tell of course.

[NileQT87]

joss was more involved in season 4 of ats than he was in seasons 6 and 7 of btvs (which he had very little involvement--that was mostly marti noxon--just like much of ats was tim minear and david greenwalt--whom, imo, were superior), so that's not entirely true. it seems like he was similarly excited over waiting in the wings as he was by once more, with feeling--so it's not just about btvs' "special" episodes. in fact, on the ats season 4 documentary he talks about how he got even more involved with ats. and of course he was doing firefly which took him away from both ats and btvs. i don't know why people are so adamant that joss had nothing to do with ats. in fact, illyria was his favorite character out of all of them to write for. if anything, i'd argue ats season 1 had more effort put into it than btvs season 4, despite hush and restless.

he probably loves them all. various characters and episodes that are dearer to him (innocence being his favorite from btvs), but i think they are all special.

it's not like joss has no involvement in ats season 8. it is all his ideas. just somebody else doing the scripting and drawing... similar how to most of all of his shows were other people doing the scripting and directing (ats was no less joss than btvs and ff). it's really not any different. the fresh blood brings in their ideas, but it is still joss at the helm saying what he has envisioned. btvs season 8 has somebody else writing the faith arc, for example. it's no different than somebody else writing the beginning ats season 6 arc (it could stay short or it could go on for a long time too with more issues added, who knows).

[Vampire in Rug]

I'm really looking forward to this, even moreso than Buffy season 8. I read Spike: Assylum and Brian Lynch handled the character awesomely. He posts pretty frequently at the IDW boards, and it's pretty obvious he's a devoted fan who's not gonna screw it up.

[Cinderela]

oooh, I do like that. It definitely seems to be right after Not Fade Way. :)

Buffy s8 is really good so I have expectations for this series too!

Just catching up on this thread, but I want very, very much to see how they get out of that alley! I have my own weird idea about that! I would be very disappointed if it were slayers that came to the rescue! It was made pretty clear in "Damage" that the slayers were hanging Angel out to dry without even finding out the real facts of what really happened to have the gang take over W & H (which I found really out of character from Buffy and Giles, especialy - judging with out even contacting Angel - especially the way Buffy and Angel left their relationship in Buffy S7).

It seems that it has been overlooked or conveniently forgotten that CORDY herself is not only part demon ("Birthday"), but also has been a higher being. Also, in YW, she made it clear that she was not dying, but "on a different road" - well, why couldn't it be CORDY that helps the gang escape the alley? Wouldn't be the first time she has come to the rescue. She even called in a favor from TPTB to help them get back on track in YW. She's gone, not dead. And it wouldn't take a ton of explanation or continuity lapses to have her be involved in making sure at least some of the gang survives. Even if she's too late for Gunn to be vamped.

Well, I can say that im even more exited two, because of the sucky but not so sucky ending ;) .

Exactly! There are still so many great possibilities. I can't wait!

[Wolfie Gilmore]

RE how they get out of the alley...I'm finding it hard to come up with an option that wouldn't seem a cop-out. Being saved by slayers, or a higher power (Cordy or otherwise) seems too easy. Unless "they" were only saved when it's too late perhaps....when Angel's the only one left standing (or perhaps Angel and Illyria). But then there wouldn't be many characters to play with in the comics! Unless Gunn was around as a vamp of course. Still, hope they don't kill Spike, cos I'm fond of the chap, even if he ws written terribly in s5.

Still trying to think of non cop-out exit routes. Erm...Illyria displays some weird ninja power in which she can split herself into zillions? Heh, like that's not a deus ex.

God himself comes down to save them, inside some kind of souped-up fighting machine tank type thing - then at least they can make a joke about it.

SPIKE: What the bloody hell....?

GOD: Dude! Deus ex machina!

Because God would clearly say dude. And wear a hawaiian shirt.

[vampmogs]

Joss has ruled out the slayers coming and saving Angel :)

IMO I think it doesn't automatically have to feel like a cop out for them to get out of the alley. I think a lot of people on the net are speculating how they got out of the alley, with the idea that they somehow defeated the gigantic army. However, IMO I don't believe this will be the case at all, I think they'll be forced to flee when the battle gets too bad. How, well I'm not sure exactly :)

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Joss has ruled out the slayers coming and saving Angel :)

Good! Cos, the cavalry showing up...well, that seems to defeat the whole point of NFA for me - as in, there's no one coming to save you so you have to do your best. No shiny reward, and no magical girls with shiny hair like something out of a manga ;)

IMO I think it doesn't automatically have to feel like a cop out for them to get out of the alley. I think a lot of people on the net are speculating how they got out of the alley, with the idea that they somehow defeated the gigantic army. However, IMO I don't believe this will be the case at all, I think they'll be forced to flee when the battle gets too bad. How, well I'm not sure exactly :)

Them boldly buggering off might be fun. Though, hmm...in terms of people coming to help them out, the idea of a less-than-morally-upright ally might be interesting. Can't think of anyone off the top of my head but, ya know, someone like Lilah.

Now this is going to bug me. I'm going to have to draw up a list of possible exit strategies. And I don't like lists. :)

[vampmogs]

Good! Cos, the cavalry showing up...well, that seems to defeat the whole point of NFA for me - as in, there's no one coming to save you so you have to do your best. No shiny reward, and no magical girls with shiny hair like something out of a manga ;)

haha :roll: Well na I agree. Realistically I could see the slayers swooping down from the sky and helping because it seems unlikely they failed to hear about this and didn't have any slayers in a demon infested LA, but storywise it wouldn't be very good. For the reasons you mentioned above, and just because this is Angel's show and we don't want to Buffy to take the spotlight from one of the most talked about things in Ats history.

Them boldly buggering off might be fun. Though, hmm...in terms of people coming to help them out, the idea of a less-than-morally-upright ally might be interesting. Can't think of anyone off the top of my head but, ya know, someone like Lilah.

Well from the variant cover and from what we knew were Joss' original plans for season six, LA looks like a hellish place which to me kinda means they must have buggered off to survive because they most certainly didn't win. Doesn't Lynch say something in a recent interview about Angel facing a battle he just can't win?

Now this is going to bug me. I'm going to have to draw up a list of possible exit strategies. And I don't like lists. :)

Neither do I :) If it was coming out this month I'd just not bother, but we have till November to speculate and it will bug me immensly. And on that note, I just pre-ordered After The Fall: Issue 1 wahoo! :2party:

[Wolfie Gilmore]

haha :roll: Well na I agree. Realistically I could see the slayers swooping down from the sky and helping because it seems unlikely they failed to hear about this and didn't have any slayers in a demon infested LA, but storywise it wouldn't be very good.

That's the funny thing about stories, isn't it? Sometimes the realistic thing sometimes just doesn't work from a narrative point of view. Like how in life there are sometimes coincidences that seem so ridiculous that, if you put 'em in a story, they'd seem ludicrous. Stranger than fiction and all that :)

For the reasons you mentioned above, and just because this is Angel's show and we don't want to Buffy to take the spotlight from one of the most talked about things in Ats history.

Yeah, it'd be like Richard III rocking up near the end of Hamlet and saying, "Come on, if you won't kill Papa, then I will!" *Stabs Claudius and everyone can go home for tea*

Though, now I think about it, Shakespeare crossover fanfics would WROK. I think I might be a Titania/Edmund shipper ;)


Well from the variant cover and from what we knew were Joss' original plans for season six, LA looks like a hellish place which to me kinda means they must have buggered off to survive because they most certainly didn't win. Doesn't Lynch say something in a recent interview about Angel facing a battle he just can't win?

I love love love the idea of post-apocalyptic LA. I mean, we've had so many apocalypses that surely one of them must stick? I'm thinking Mad Max meets Blade Runner with a hint of whatever that film was with the dude whose name escapes me...Escape from LA?


Neither do I :) If it was coming out this month I'd just not bother, but we have till November to speculate and it will bug me immensly. And on that note, I just pre-ordered After The Fall: Issue 1 wahoo! :2party:

Woo! But not woo for November. So, speculation is all we have til then. Hmm...options. Not all of them serious, obv...

1) Slayers save them (not in the running then?)

2) Lorne sings Mandy at a pitch that only kills demons (um...apart from vampries). Kind of like a dog whistle deal.

3)David Nabbit arrives with an army of heavily armed dungeons and dragons geeks, whose boy-toys make Riley's look like water pistols. I love Mr Nabbit more than life :)

4) The Fang Gang escape through some kind of portal. (lame)

5) They all die and season 6 is seen from the perspective of ghosts (lamer).

6) They escape into the sewers (lamest).

7) It turns out that the demon army aren't interested in them, they just want to kill people.

8) Anne and her street urchins tool up, like the baddest assed Lost Boys that ever were (and she's Wendy. With a machine gun).

9) Illyria still has some demon god tricks up her sleeves.

10) When Angel kills the dragon, all the other demons fade...he was the source of their power.

Hmm, still can't come up with anything plausible!

[vampmogs]

That's the funny thing about stories, isn't it? Sometimes the realistic thing sometimes just doesn't work from a narrative point of view. Like how in life there are sometimes coincidences that seem so ridiculous that, if you put 'em in a story, they'd seem ludicrous. Stranger than fiction and all that :)

It is very strange, and then you get people complaining when things aren't realistic enough or are too realistic. It is a very hard thing to write a great story and find that happy mix.


I love love love the idea of post-apocalyptic LA. I mean, we've had so many apocalypses that surely one of them must stick? I'm thinking Mad Max meets Blade Runner with a hint of whatever that film was with the dude whose name escapes me...Escape from LA?

I like it as well. Only thing though is that it brings up that whole believability issue again. Firstly, if the slayers don't show up throughout the season then it just wouldn't make sense because surely with a whole major city in an apocalyptic state they would do something- especially a city that has the lead slayers true love in it? But we won't have any slayers we know because of rights and everything, so I'm thinking a rehabilitated Dana perhaps?


1) Slayers save them (not in the running then?)

Yeah I'm fairly certain Joss himself has ruled this out.

2) Lorne sings Mandy at a pitch that only kills demons (um...apart from vampries). Kind of like a dog whistle deal.

Haha, well he song a pitch in Lullaby that only hurts humans and not vampires apparently, and not even Gunn or Fred so he has his talents!

3)David Nabbit arrives with an army of heavily armed dungeons and dragons geeks, whose boy-toys make Riley's look like water pistols. I love Mr Nabbit more than life :)

Oh. god. shoot. me. :roll: Not a fan of Mr Nabbit :roll:

4) The Fang Gang escape through some kind of portal. (lame)

Yeah, portals were used too much on Ats.

5) They all die and season 6 is seen from the perspective of ghosts (lamer).

Very lame. Maybe through the perspective of one ghost with the others all still alive, I could deal with that, but not all of them ghosts.

6) They escape into the sewers (lamest).

Ya know I could actually see them doing this though. Which does worry me because it is very anti-climatic and would be a big let down.

7) It turns out that the demon army aren't interested in them, they just want to kill people.

Cept they were running down the same alley the fang gang just happened to be in.. so I don't really see it, though I'm sure they have no qualms about killing everyone else as well.

8) Anne and her street urchins tool up, like the baddest assed Lost Boys that ever were (and she's Wendy. With a machine gun).

I always said 'Hook' would be much better if Wendy pulled out two pistols as she walks up the stairs to find Pan's kids missing. :D

9) Illyria still has some demon god tricks up her sleeves.

Mmm I'd feel like it was a cop out.

10) When Angel kills the dragon, all the other demons fade...he was the source of their power.

Is the dragon supposed to be the dragon from 'The Gift'?

Hmm, still can't come up with anything plausible!

Yeah, right now I'm imagining what a hard time the real writers must be having! Wouldn't want to be them, a lot of pressure!

[Mabus]

Regarding W&H's army...I've been doing a lot of thinking on the subject lately, and it finally occurred to me:

Why do they have an army at all?

We've heard over and over, Wolfram and Hart aren't interested in anything so mundane as "winning". They don't need an army; they already own us. They go on; that's all they need to do.

Finally I realized, there's only one reason for them to have an army--to distract champions who want to take them down.

W&H is about apathy, no? Consider these outcomes of a fight:

1) The heroes beat the army. They go away pleased with themselves for having "won"; W&H goes on with business and rebuilds somewhere else.

2) The heroes die or run away. Any survivors (if there are any) are more concerned with staying alive than with helping anyone else.

3) Stalemate. Ultimately this leads to one of two likely situations:
3a) The heroes give up and walk away.
3b) The heroes resort to extreme measures without concern for what happens to bystanders.

In other words--no matter what happens, the result in some form of unconcern or "giving up"--precisely what W&H are into. "Victory" achieved.

My guess is that W&H will allow Angel & Co. to "win"; the army will fold after several rounds and scarper off to some hell dimension. Quite possibly they are not nearly as powerful as they look in the first place, if they are indeed just for show. The survivors (whoever they are) will believe they have done their part and go pester someone else while the other offices (like the one in Rome) continue the job of corrupting humanity.

"I am well struck! I call on the misty portal to my demon dimension, where I will lay my head and gently die."
(Hopefully W&H have their army's escape planned better than this...)

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I read an interesting observation in an academic book about Angel – that Angel is pumped full of the power of the senior partners in NFA, after snacking on Hamilton. Perhaps this could explain how he’s able to beat the army?

Lee, still thinking re your W&H ideas, will come back when have something fully formed in my mind.

[Mabus]

I read an interesting observation in an academic book about Angel – that Angel is pumped full of the power of the senior partners in NFA, after snacking on Hamilton. Perhaps this could explain how he’s able to beat the army?

I used that explanation (in part) in DeadWar. Ironically, it implies that Harmony's betrayal is partly responsible for his victory--if she hadn't tipped off Hamilton, Angel would either have not encountered him at all, or would have had to fight him along with the army.

Come to think of it, maybe that's why she insists she's not betraying him! She's telling the truth! :lol:

Lee, still thinking re your W&H ideas, will come back when have something fully formed in my mind.

Was wondering a little about that.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Regarding W&H's army...I've been doing a lot of thinking on the subject lately, and it finally occurred to me:

Why do they have an army at all?

We've heard over and over, Wolfram and Hart aren't interested in anything so mundane as "winning". They don't need an army; they already own us. They go on; that's all they need to do.

They're not interested in anything so mundane as winning...is the party line at least. I wonder though, when it comes down to it, whether the individuals involved actually believe that? After all, businesses say a lot of things they don't actually mean when talking to clients/arch nemeses ;)

But let's say they were being upfront...


Finally I realized, there's only one reason for them to have an army--to distract champions who want to take them down.

W&H is about apathy, no? Consider these outcomes of a fight:

1) The heroes beat the army. They go away pleased with themselves for having "won"; W&H goes on with business and rebuilds somewhere else.

2) The heroes die or run away. Any survivors (if there are any) are more concerned with staying alive than with helping anyone else.

3) Stalemate. Ultimately this leads to one of two likely situations:
3a) The heroes give up and walk away.
3b) The heroes resort to extreme measures without concern for what happens to bystanders.

In other words--no matter what happens, the result in some form of unconcern or "giving up"--precisely what W&H are into. "Victory" achieved.

My guess is that W&H will allow Angel & Co. to "win"; the army will fold after several rounds and scarper off to some hell dimension. Quite possibly they are not nearly as powerful as they look in the first place, if they are indeed just for show. The survivors (whoever they are) will believe they have done their part and go pester someone else while the other offices (like the one in Rome) continue the job of corrupting humanity.

"I am well struck! I call on the misty portal to my demon dimension, where I will lay my head and gently die."
(Hopefully W&H have their army's escape planned better than this...)

I wonder how that would play out in narrative terms....how do you have the W&H army let Angel and Co win without it seeming a bit damp squibby? Perhaps you could have what seems like a terrible, ginormous battle...but they later find out that it was a con, a fake victory? So, they felt like they were giving it their all...and even that was still just a fraction of W&H's strength?

I used that explanation (in part) in DeadWar. Ironically, it implies that Harmony's betrayal is partly responsible for his victory--if she hadn't tipped off Hamilton, Angel would either have not encountered him at all, or would have had to fight him along with the army.

Come to think of it, maybe that's why she insists she's not betraying him! She's telling the truth! :lol:

That Harmony - smarter than people give her credit for.



Was wondering a little about that.


Wonder no more! (see above)

[vampmogs]

Hey everyone

Guess what I found! Preview panel from Issue 1, yet to be coloured but is very revealing about who will be returning to the series! If you don't want to be spoiled do not click on this link!

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=335358&blogID=307040752

So it looks like we have Connor and Gwen back, and as some kind of team. Interesting from the image we can see they are facing someone, as you can see their hands in the shot- probably revealing they've mustered some force and are ready to kick arse. I'm not sure who the blonde is, some speculate Harmony, others Nina and others Anne. I don't know if Harmony would be working with Connor and Gwen, and wasn't Nina supposed to have skipped town? Someone suggested Anne as it looks like her street kids are the army behind the three of them, which is very cool!

[NileQT87]

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/4661/lb2a257f3a5e53ec49b0933rr3.jpg

that's definitely connor and gwen. and i'm putting my money on anne! the street kids and the fact that harmony and darla wouldn't be caught (un)dead in that outfit. nina... hmm, it doesn't seem like her to me either. definitely feels like anne to me. somebody also mentioned it could be kate... i could see her coming back as being interesting, but that just screams anne at me.

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/8/81/Anne_Steele.jpg

the profile and the second-hand clothing even seem right.

you knew connor wouldn't go home like angel asked... i mean, when did he ever listen to his dad? lol. similar to how he popped in to w&h during the hamilton fight because he suspected something was up when his dad took him out for coffee. it looks like connor went rounding up gwen and others.

well, there's our answer to how to spruce up the diminishing fang gang with people who have some superstrength or superpowers (like electrocution).

still holding on to hope for dear ol' wes.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

If the above speculation about who's in the picture is correct then...Perhaps I guessed (partly) right??

8) Anne and her street urchins tool up, like the baddest assed Lost Boys that ever were (and she's Wendy. With a machine gun).

[vampmogs]

If the above speculation about who's in the picture is correct then...Perhaps I guessed (partly) right??



I was thinking the same thing about your comment when I found this picture :D I think it is likely her, well done.

[NileQT87]

i wonder what anne will think when she sees spike! LOL.

i mean, it's one thing for her to know about angel being a good vampire, but the guy that almost ate her in lie to me is also on the good side now.

or for that matter, what his reaction would be if she told him that she was chanterelle, one of billy fordham's fodder vampire cultists.

and i'll assume that either gwen's experimental l.i.s.a. device stopped working or she removed it.

[NileQT87]

forgive me for answering myself, but, this is totally new-ish (new panel folks--this is the one that leaked onto the net that wasn't supposed to):

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/5146/dragonthxn3.jpg

angel and the dragon! apocalyptic L.A.!

[ferdy-m]

forgive me for answering myself, but, this is totally new-ish (new panel folks--this is the one that leaked onto the net that wasn't supposed to):

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/5146/dragonthxn3.jpg

angel and the dragon! apocalyptic L.A.!

whoaahh, nile! ;) strong "fray" element coming in, which makes sense as JW is behind both. And after everything the city of angels has done to Joss in the way of pulling plugs on his "frikkin shows" what's the likelihood he was standing right behind the penciller there, saying, "that building there, on the corner ... I want major carnage on those offices ... nothing personal, but ..." :D

[NileQT87]

well, at least one person has an opinion on the new spoiler. lol

i love it, personally. it looks like there's a portal, some tentacled snake thing going up one of the buildings. just awesome. imagine if that had been the opening of an angel theatrical film! .::tear::.

and i like the way they are drawing angel. you get scared with some of those older comics that look nothing like the characters. angel ends up turning into he-man and illyria turns into cordelia. LOL. some of those early buffy comics had comic artists who were desperately trying to put buffy into spandex as well. it just ups the quality of the comics when they dress and look like themselves, in a very human, fallible way. it puts more depth in the portrayal.

and yes, i see what you mean with the whole "fray" thing.

you know what would be beyond cool? angel, spike or drusilla (whoever survives that long) showing up in "fray" further down the line. it might be a good chance to show perhaps the signs of vampire aging (it seemed to even bother the master!). there have been a handful of extremely amazing fanfics on that subject of waaaay in the future, that just would really be emotionally strong. angel would probably be the best candidate for that sort of arc--because loneliness and loss are his forte. fray would be a perfect opportunity to show something like that. sort of going along with the tales of the slayers thing where melaka is seen learning about the different slayers of the past. how about she meets somebody who knew slayers--angel's experiences with buffy and faith, for example. spike would also be a good choice for that sort of arc, being that he killed two and was with another.

ah, the stuff of fanfiction. but that's the sort of stuff i would like to see explored in the comic format.

ok, maybe it's just that i desperately miss my vamps. hopefully the fact that both angel and spike, which are arguably the two most popular/fan-obsessive characters in the entire jossverse due to the bangel/spuffy arcs, will pull people over to reading the ats season 6 comics. let's just say the futures of angel, spike, wesley (if he has one) and fred strike me as a bit more 'i have to find out' than buffy, xander and willow. the paths that giles and faith are heading down might easily be the hilights of the dark horse property--and faith, in all honesty, belongs on ats. as far as property, in some ways, idw is sitting on the hotter property in terms of potential, imo.

i still simply don't understand the people who watched btvs only, or focus on btvs only and refused to watch ats (in many cases, they gave in but only for the 5th season). com'on, jossverse! as much of it as we can get! i really want to see the idw comics do gangbusters too.

also, if the writers/joss ever read this: you stick darla in a flashback or as a ghost any time soon and i'll have to track you guys down to kiss you. though, i already owe them that just for getting the stories going again.

anyway, i so want more than 12 issues of angel season 6!!! that's so unfair. hopefully, they are just testing the waters, seeing if the demand is there, and that they'll do more if people want it. i, honestly, am WAAAAAY more excited for ats than btvs continuing.

[vampmogs]

Very nice panel thanks Nile!

The only thing I'm a little concerned about is how the writers will handle the fact that the demon world has come right into the human world, there is now no escaping the fact that regular joe's have seen the demons and are possibly fleeing from them. I hope we'll get to see some media reactions to this or something to indicate to us how the world is dealing with a dragon flying over one of the major cities of the world.

I liked keeping the demon and human world seperate, at times I always found it unbelieveable there were so many demon bars in LA without it being common knowledge they existed, with this though there is no doubting that the demon world has been exposed. Really hope that it is addressed.

Other than that, very exciting panel and very cool- Angel is riding the dragon right? Can never picture that on the show without it looking majorly lame, thanks no budget! :D

Notedly, every image we've seen of Angel so far has been of him alone, is this to say the gang had been split up in the battle? By the gang probably only Spike and Illyria given Gunn looked pretty much dead.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I was thinking the same thing about your comment when I found this picture :D I think it is likely her, well done.

I hope it is...I love Anne! I love that she's been through so many phases. Also, that she can be pretty badass without being physical...as in, she's powerful in and of herself, never mind whether she can kick people. But I reckon she can probably do a bit of that too....

Cool panel indeed! All stops pulled out it seems!

[NileQT87]

bigger version of the aforementioned new panel:

http://westfieldcomics.com/wow/art/feature/large/frm_int_178-04-05.jpg

you can definitely see angel on top of the dragon better in this one.

and a new interview from brian lynch:

http://westfieldcomics.com/wow/order_main.html

[KingofCretins]

"Angel: After the Fall" #2 cover and variant are out.

Angel #2 covers (http://www.idwpublishing.com/solicit/dec07.shtml)

Nice harem for Spike.

Previous spoiler discussion.

Also, based on that spoiler panel Angel managed to destroy Los Angeles during his plan to extract himself from a bad situation he got into by choice. Nice job, genius :)

[ferdy-m]

Nice harem for Spike. Marti Noxon must be grinning in satisfaction. Turning Spike into prime-time soft porn appears to have been her mission statement in S6. The alternative cover ...

scrumptious though the artwork is, haven't we seen a souled vamp tormented by inner demons, struggling with broody angst - he's called "Angel"?

Previous spoiler discussion.

Also, based on that spoiler panel Angel managed to destroy Los Angeles during his plan to extract himself from a bad situation he got into by choice. Nice job, genius :)

Either a prelude to a challenging story arc about whether the end justifies the means - or comicbook extremism used unthinkingly. Wait and see, I suppose.

[NileQT87]

so you don't have to go opening a bunch of new windows:
http://www.idwpublishing.com/solicit/dec07/Angel_ATF_2.jpg
http://www.idwpublishing.com/solicit/dec07/Angel_ATF_2RI.jpg

i'm rather disappointed here. this is ANGEL: the series, not SPIKE: the series. i thought the other character specials were supposed to come later. it seems like brian lynch is used to writing about spike (he created the spike puppet comic--'nough said--imo, i thought smile time was pushing it for ats into catering to the btvs-only crowd) more than he is about angel and the fang gang. one thing about spike's character on ats, is that even though he came close to being used to lighten the show to improve ratings (along with harmony), they still kept angel enough in focus, and balanced out spike's arc by focusing more on the wesley/fred arc and then bringing angel's 'verse-long arc back front and center for the finale.

but this wreaks of brian lynch's involvement in spike-centric comics by putting those as the second covers. it was the one thing that made me uneasy when you note what he has written. joss always made it clear that he thought spike worked best as a supporting character that provided a commentary on other characters.

the only way i could see spike coming up in focus would be if, say, drusilla came in the picture. then the story would clearly necessitate spike's views on drusilla and angelus as well as angelus' past with drusilla. otherwise, he's a bit of a buddy cop character in ats, but a supporting character, nonetheless. if anything, he's moved up one space in the hierarchy of character importance because of wesley's death.

granted, he's a popular character with a lot of people who watched buffy just to see his shirt off--i'm talking about non-true jossverse fans here (ugh, can we say cashing in on marti noxon's season 6 sexploitation?), but to me this is actually a step-back for the character. the whole point that spike has been that he doesn't want to be exploited and used any more--he doesn't want to not be taken seriously. he's heading into a redemptive storyline. the character does have depth other than being there for ratings, to crack jokes and having his shirt off.

i'm guessing it's the los angeles demon brothel there... which we saw in several angel episodes (the war zone & couplet). perhaps it is a statement about how los angeles is going to the dark side.

i don't mind other characters on the covers (quite the contrary), but they better not be trying to make this "angel & spike: the series" either. and i wouldn't mind illyria, connor, etc... making the cover along with angel. but angel should always be the main character in a true CANON season 6. this isn't just a series of random non-canon comics, but *the* continuation. they need to make it feel like the show as much as possible.

[Thomas]

More the more I see of this comic, the more I wish it wasn't happening... I hate saying it, but I'm not liking what I'm seeing AT ALL. Gwen, while I loved the character, and Connor being in the comics is one of those things. A majority of fan fics, involve those two showing up to help.

Also, the Spike covers, he’s surrounded by four female demons, like he’s Hugh Heffner… If Spike’s lost his soul and is now all evil, I’ll be pissed. I seriously doubt Spike would take time off from fighting a demon army to get some.

[NileQT87]

i am bummed only about one thing: brian lynch's focus on spike and the fact that it seems his entire angel comic catalog has only been spike comics. a smart thing for him to do is to not do too much spike until we get settled into the characters in the new medium. angel needs to be the focus of the first arc.

connor and gwen, imo, are the highlights of the new stuff, BY FAR. i always believed we needed to see angel and connor together again. that was an arc i felt to be unfinished and it felt like there could be so much more. gwen is just about the most underutilized character in the jossverse as far as potential goes--and ats is running out of characters.

but i admit it, the spike covers just scare the crap out of me. the demon-face one is nice and all (hey, it actually looks a lot like the pylean vampire demon inside angel!), but it doesn't belong as issue #2. the variant is a step-back in how spike was starting to be treated as a character. it's totally out of character for him to be acting like a sex object after what he went through, and especially with the fact that hell's wrath just went over los angeles. it's more likely that he'd be fighting with his fists and fangs out in some dark alley than playing hugh heffner.

also, the way the demon broads were drawn: that better not be a sign of what the comic artists are going to do with illyria/fred (though, i must say that i am happy that over in btvs-land they just started to color willow's eyes hazel/green instead of blue in the latest preview). amy acker is a skinny, tall twig with small breasts. keep it that way.

let these comics not just be an excuse for bored comic artists to draw big breasts, abnormally large thighs and big horny monsters that feel out of place compared to the show. not every other woman in the comic needs to look like cordelia, either. VARIETY! these comics are ultimately for the fans, not for people who just want to look at pictures of shapely women and monsters. put some love into the drawings of the guys, too (some of those early ats comics--you'd think cordy was the star of the show, judging by how many times she is drawn and large in each frame). the dragon is one thing, as that was actually in the show, but not every monster now has to be things that the characters wouldn't face on a regular day on the show. hey, i wouldn't mind a few demons that are the size of average joes with prosthetics.

i recommend that brian lynch pulls back on the focus with spike, and goes more for angel, illyria, connor and perhaps wesley's death/illyria's relationship to him. spike and illyria is something that whedon seems to have considered--him taking over wesley's job as the new world guide. that's fine (though i'd rather see wes back--a girl can wish). just remember what the title of the show was, too. it's still angel's story. he's still the leader of the ensemble. his journey is still the point of the whole spin-off.

[ferdy-m]

but i admit it, the spike covers just scare the crap out of me. the demon-face one is nice and all (hey, it actually looks a lot like the pylean vampire demon inside angel!), but it doesn't belong as issue #2. the variant is a step-back in how spike was starting to be treated as a character. it's totally out of character for him to be acting like a sex object after what he went through, and especially with the fact that hell's wrath just went over los angeles. it's more likely that he'd be fighting with his fists and fangs out in some dark alley than playing hugh heffner.

... or worse, sold out to the PTBs for the same? Anyone check the bible - anarchist, outsider, middle-finger up to authority in all forms?

also, the way the demon broads were drawn: that better not be a sign of what the comic artists are going to do with illyria/fred (though, i must say that i am happy that over in btvs-land they just started to color willow's eyes hazel/green instead of blue in the latest preview). amy acker is a skinny, tall twig with small breasts. keep it that way.

I hate to say it, BL's comicbook qualifications could lose him this particular BtVS fan :(

i recommend that brian lynch pulls back on the focus with spike, and goes more for angel, illyria, connor and perhaps wesley's death/illyria's relationship to him. spike and illyria is something that whedon seems to have considered--him taking over wesley's job as the new world guide. that's fine (though i'd rather see wes back--a girl can wish). just remember what the title of the show was, too. it's still angel's story. he's still the leader of the ensemble. his journey is still the point of the whole spin-off.

I agree, good plan.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

The alternative cover ...

scrumptious though the artwork is, haven't we seen a souled vamp tormented by inner demons, struggling with broody angst - he's called "Angel"?

Gosh, it is a little on the moochy-broody side isn't it? Unless that coat Wolfram and Hart gave him is evil and those are literal demons coming out of it, at which I imagine anyone would feel a bit grumpy.

[sueworld]

Err, I hate to say this, but aren't you all rather jumping the gun here. The issue isn't even out yet, and those images may represent not what they first appear to. The covers are there to grab attention, and in that I think they work.

I for one have enjoyed Brian Lynch's previous work and have great faith that he'll do well by all the characters concerned.

Maybe it would be better to pass judgment after they're out and not start getting too concerned about things as they stand just yet. :)

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Err, I hate to say this, but aren't you all rather jumping the gun here. The issue isn't even out yet, and those images may represent not what they first appear to. The covers are there to grab attention, and in that I think they work.

I for one have enjoyed Brian Lynch's previous work and have great faith that he'll do well by all the characters concerned.

Maybe it would be better to pass judgment after they're out and not start getting too concerned about things as they stand just yet. :)

Aww, but that's the joy of spoilers. It's all about getting hot under the collar and flying off the handle in an irrational manner. :D

I think they should be fun. The premise - of a post-apocalyptic LA rather than a pre-apocalyptic one offers a fun playground.

[Enisy]

Apart from pimp!Spike, I'm also worried about this statement of Lynch's:

Also, people seem to really dig the covers for ANGEL:AFTER THE FALL issue 2. You didn't hear it from me, but one of the ladies with Spike is a pretty cool character that will have an impact on the series. Not saying WHICH ONE, and it's not a character we've seen on the show, but she is a pretty important part of Spike's world, and the storyline in general.

I seriously hope "pretty important part of Spike's world" does not imply impending romance. The sixth season of Angel is only going to be 12 issues, so do we really have to work new ships into it? Besides, Spike loves Buffy and his relationship with her remains unresolved, as Joss himself has stated, so I won't be buying any new Spike-centric ships, if that's what they're planning, sorry.

[NileQT87]

we're already 6 issues into season 8 of btvs and i feel like we're only on about the 3rd episode of a season. 2 issues equal about an episode, if that.

so, if ats season 6 only lasts 12 issues, that's like 6 episodes to make a season... which is NOT room enough for that kind of adding in new characters. certainly not the kind of characters that become equal with the main gang. if they really want a fresh relatively new character--use gwen (who i'm tickled pink to see again).

we ultimately don't want new characters that we haven't quite attached to ourselves with actors who portrayed them. we want a continuation of our old characters and what they were actually doing at the end of season 5--meaning: angel was still the lead and had just signed away his chance at "forgiveness", illyria was brand-spankin' new and riddled with fred's human emotions towards wesley, wesley had just died and was willing to believe a lie in his last moments, connor had just accepted angel as his father and was starting to understand the reasons of things angel did--but we still don't know if he currently still has some loyalty to holtz or not, and spike was just starting to make selfless decisions.

that's what i want a continuation of, anyway. not new curvy comic chick for spike to romance. but knowing joss, he subverts fan fears and does things along the lines of kate lockley. it adds flavor, from a writing statement, to do something we AREN'T expecting, but also because it didn't feel right at the time for that relationship to happen. joss has a pretty good record with not doing too many for-the-heck-of-it relationships. fans are important. it's fans that kind of send the writers into various directions because what seems to feel right with the performances and how it is being portrayed. if original intentions were always followed, buffy and xander would have gotten together, angel would have disappeared into nothingness, spike would have died in what's my line? pt. 2, etc... fans are important! there's a reason that characters are chosen to come back, certain fan favorite jokes are referenced, etc...

if what is in the comics feels unbelievable if it happened in the show, it's a bad comic. end of story. even if it is how comics are generally written, that doesn't fit the canon of the show.

when you introduce new characters, they have to be developed enough and you have to truly care about them enough for a relationship between characters to not feel random and just for the sake of doing it. the problem with introducing characters in the comic world is they feel quite vague and pointless next to characters that have full 3-dimensional personalities with a human touch (which is a bonus of the film/tv format). otherwise, it is: new character, she dresses cute, oh, how do you like her hair and look! she likes so and so. at best, comic characters are written about as badly and 2-dimensional as most '60s beach movies (which is about as much as i can say for the new slayers over on btvs season 8 as well), no matter how curvy or muscular they look on a page. they simply don't feel alive to me.

however, for fans, the 3-dimensional characters we already know, when they do things, we can imagine how it would feel to see it acted out, thus, there is a reason to care.

this is for the fans seeing a canon continuation, that's my #1 concern.

granted, it could completely change when i read the comic. believe me, i was EXTREMELY excited about the issue #1 previews. they're just beautiful. lynch has now said that despite the spike covers, the story is still about angel... look at all the dvd box covers for the shows. who do you see? the main character--buffy or angel, with one or two other characters. the btvs boxes highlighted more characters, but you never lost who was the star. though, the way spike's head was blown up way bigger than cordelia's ever was on the advertisements and box art covers... it was definitely a marketing ploy... but at least the title character was still making it in the advertising, and the show balanced out the arcs and time spent on all the characters fairly well. in other words, most episodes stayed firmly on the main characters as a group with a leader in angel or buffy.

...and despite all the hoopla about spike coming onto ats and bringing over the btvs fanbase... joss still gave the big arc of the season to fred and wesley! if anybody deserved their head next to db's on the box art from season 3 on, it was alexis.

also, it looks like brian didn't like my message about checking out some other opinions like on here. and i also got a couple apparently die-hard spike fans mad at me (jesus, i like spike, too--but i actually care if going to a demon brothel is necessitated by fetching some magical elixir or getting information or if they are trying to appeal to the casual viewers of btvs' last seasons who ONLY watched for the sexual content--i've unfortunately run into more of these kind of people in real life than i have die-hard fans who really know the shows.).

if its a ploy to get these kinds of people to buy the comics, then i am actually disappointed, even if i want the series to do gangbusters and kick btvs' butt (ats is, in fact, my favorite show of the two and the one i still feel to have the most potential).

perhaps, i feel its a bit too early to be catering to the btvs-only crowd who only watched season 5 of ats for spike. ats is supposed to stand on its own, while each series compliments and expands on the same story--at the same time. in 12 issues, we need to see angel's gang all take spotlight. had they put, oh, say... spike and illyria on a cover, or spike and angel... or maybe had one cover with spike, another with a different character, etc...

as for the insinuation that i didn't like it because i was feminist... wow. because i actually am not. it just seemed odd for spike to be in a brothel in the middle of w&h's big apocalypse and introducing a "big" new character when we have possibly only 12 issues to see what happens to characters we really care about. with that limited amount of space, i'd prefer less filler, more meat.

i do trust joss though. i hope he's really involved here.

[KingofCretins]

I won't be upset at all over a romantic interest for Spike... there's nothing left to say about Spuffy, sorry. Especially since Buffy isn't going to be making an appearance in "After the Fall" most likely, and Joss has already said that Spike will not be a regular in Buffy anymore.

That said, a new romantic interest for Spike is a lot of space used on a new character that isn't Spike, and more to the point, isn't Angel. I just hope that they don't do anything in "After the Fall" that has a *huge* impact on the Buffy side of the Buffyverse so that they decide to start retconning it into Season 8 (which starts after "After the Fall" ends anyway).

[ThePoet's<3]

Err, I hate to say this, but aren't you all rather jumping the gun here. The issue isn't even out yet, and those images may represent not what they first appear to. The covers are there to grab attention, and in that I think they work.

I for one have enjoyed Brian Lynch's previous work and have great faith that he'll do well by all the characters concerned.

Maybe it would be better to pass judgment after they're out and not start getting too concerned about things as they stand just yet. :)

I agree sueworld!!

I mean - if what's on the covers is true then bring it on!!

However - I have a feeling what you see (covers) is not what you will get. Yes - BL is a fantastic Spike writer. But both of these covers seem to me to be completely "dream sequence" stuff. If anything - what someone else brought up about "turning to the dark side" would be more likely. (And I agree - BOOOOO!)

Think Buffy S8 and the Faith cover from issue #8

http://www.darkhorse.com/profile/profile_popup.php?sku=14-664
Are we to think that one is actually going to happen??

Calm down...take deep breaths...I'm sure Angel will be ALL about Angel...:D

[NileQT87]

1. It's more than 12 issues.

2. There are new characters. Not many thus far, but they serve to tell the lead characters' stories all the better. I am sorry if this rubs people the wrong way. All the Betta Georges and Becks didn't take away from Spike's story in ASYLUM, just like all the new slayers don't take away from Buffy, Willow, Xander and Giles' story in Season 8.

3. It's Angel's story first and foremost.

4. Just because Spike is hanging out with four ladies on Franco's cover doesn't mean that Spike spends the entire issue hanging out with four ladies. Case in point: Angel is kinda sorta praying on Tony Harris' cover for ANGEL 1. Angel does not spend 27 pages doing this in issue 1. I read it, I know this for a fact.

5. Critique the comics once you read the comics. It will be so much easier, trust me. Let the story play out. You won't be disappointed. Everyone's journey