The totally unofficial season 8 thread.

[tangent]

As there does'nt seem to be place for this yet i thought i'd jump right in and make one:) .

So what are we making so far of the comic form season? Is it everything we wanted? what or who else would you like to see? And perhaps most importantly where do we think it is going?

Personally i just got 8.03 at the weekend due to my local supplier running out the day after the issue came out and so far i'm loving every second of it. The artwork, cover art in particular, is superb although i think that sometimes buffy herself comes off as being slightly...odd looking. Xander is so far my character of the season though and about time too. Mr harris certainly seems to have found his niche at slayer HQ.

As for what i would like to see, well firstly i want more giles. The original watcher just isn't getting enough screen time for me. I also want faith (god do i want faith).

So what do we think people c'mon share your opinions and seculations.

[ferdy-m]

A word from Scott Allie, DH's "producer" - although his role is unique he says - working closely with Joss on S8 - through whedonesque.com ...

http://www.stakesandsalvation.com/

J: (Interviewer) Thanks for doing the interview. Is there any thing else you want to tell the readers of Season Eight?

SA: There's a new social disease spreading around that you get from not reading Season Eight. I don't want to get too graphic, but stuff turns black and, sadly, doesn't fall off. But it does learn to talk.

Working with JW sounds a lorra fun and he confirms it's canon, but I'd like to test that theory when I've got more time - I've followed Joss boldly into genres that would have blown my head into little itty pieces for over 10 years, but comicbook is eluding me ... :(

[KingofCretins]

I've almost gotten Big Honkin' Castle, or BHC, to catch on as the nickname of their Scotland headquarters. I love that Xander and Buffy are still basically side by side and in the thick of it. I want to see more of Buffy as trainer and teacher and more of Xander in action, just to keep their roles more balanced in what they do all the time. Buffy is a natural teacher, I think, despite Season 7.

[Ameer]

I loved Issue #3 a lot more than I loved the previous 2 issues. It had some typical 'Buffy' moments, especially some of the Buffy/Xander/Willow parts. As much as I am loving the comics, I do hope that the writers don't use this medium as an excuse to write some over-the-top storylines, which I'm sure they won't. I would like the series to stick to the original show as much as possible otherwise it's going to be very difficult to accept it as canon, despite what Joss and the publishers might say.

So far, I'm loving what I've read. 6th June is too far away. After that last panel in Issue #3, who here is not dying to lay their hands on Issue #4? I'm also looking forward to Issue #5, a stand-alone issue that Joss is writing. From the little I've heard about it, I'm very excited to see how it's going to turn out.

[KingofCretins]

Joss said that he is looking forward to doing stuff that they never had the budget to do; Giant Dawn is an example. So there will be 'over-the-top' stuff, but I'm hoping it will be rooted in a much closer exploration of the central characters. I'm also vigorously hoping for Buffy/Xander, and I do think that he kissed her, no matter how "obvious" it might be.

As for Issue 8.05, "The Chain", I'm looking forward to seeing Vi and Rona again.

[Ameer]

Giant Dawn, I definitely don't mind. I think Dawn is more endearing than ever before. I won't mind 'over-the-top' storylines as long as they contribute to character devlopment and the storyline in the long run.

Issue #5 -
I am also looking forward to seeing Vi and Rona. Vi, especially. It's going to be interesting to see how they are going to fit in Tokyo, which is where the events of Issue 5 are going to take place. They are probably going to go and look for a new slayer.

The art for the series is pretty well done, in my opinion, although I do have slight issues with certain characters. Dawn, especially. It took me a while to realize who it was the first time around. I think Xander is the best-drawn character, or at least the most easily recognizable one, what with the eye-patch and all.

[Dorian's Kitten]

I can't remember which interview I read it in, but Joss specifically told the artists to draw the characters and not the actors. Which is why no one looks quite the same as we might expect. What I am not sure about is why he did that. Any ideas?

[KingofCretins]

Joss mentioned that there are likeness rights issues in an interview with the Buffy magazine, but he was not specific as to what characters that is a problem for.

[Dorian's Kitten]

That's disappointing. I guess I am still a bit of an ideologue; I would wish the actors would all be willing to accept that, after being involved in something as popular and cult-tastic as Buffy, they should allow the use of their images. Not just any dark-haired guy with pointy ears would look like Spock and not just any red haired girl will look like Willow.

[KingofCretins]

Joss has also said that it's not as easy to attract people to draw characters that are primarily identified with actors, so he probably just wanted to emphasize to any other artists that might want to work on the book someday that it's safe to do it.

I reiterate my entirely prurient desire to see J. Scott Campbell draw the book at some point.

[Dorian's Kitten]

Thank You, I feel better. At least that's an art based reason.

So, if I can maneuver discussion in another direction for a bit. I am really curious what people are making of the three crosses (X's). I posted in the other place that I found a Norse Symbol called the Web of Wyrd that is composed of three overlapping X's.

The web serves as a reminder that the actions of the past affect the present and that present actions affect the future; all timelines are inextricably interconnected- in a sense, it is a representation of the tree of life.


I think it is an interesting possibility but I also got the idea from the book that it should be meaningful to Buffy-like she should remember it. Of course her Odin reference suggests she knows more Norse mythology than I would have anticipated.

Any other thoughts floating around out there?

[Wolfie Gilmore]

So, if I can maneuver discussion in another direction for a bit. I am really curious what people are making of the three crosses (X's). I posted in the other place that I found a Norse Symbol called the Web of Wyrd that is composed of three overlapping X's.

The web serves as a reminder that the actions of the past affect the present and that present actions affect the future; all timelines are inextricably interconnected- in a sense, it is a representation of the tree of life.


I think it is an interesting possibility but I also got the idea from the book that it should be meaningful to Buffy-like she should remember it. Of course her Odin reference suggests she knows more Norse mythology than I would have anticipated.

Any other thoughts floating around out there?


I think that it's probably something character-based, given that the symbolism of Buffy's dreams has (usually) been rooted in people, in relationships (eg be back before Dawn), rather than mystical-referency...then again, there was that bizarre meta thing with counting down from 7-3-0 (something about how long it was before Dawn appeared wasn't it? Can't remember how that worked). So maybe you're right and it is something mystical. Though a lot of Buffy mythology is maguffin-based and made up!

I haven't got a specific theory. Maybe it's a symbol of a group of rival slayers? Maybe someone's going to make three Xanders and Buffy will have sex with all of them, outdoing even Anya's fantasy....maybe it's a computer code of some kind, related to the military?

Some questions that might spark ideas....

- Are the X-s crosses, or are they the letter X?

- what might come in threes in the Buffyverse? Connection to three as magic number? The trio?? (well, warren is around now...but I doubt it) Xander Buffy and Willow??

-might it have something to do with where Ethan's imprisoned?

I must read the comic again cos I can't remember exactly what the panels looked like.

[KingofCretins]

- Are the X-s crosses, or are they the letter X?

They are three dimensional roman numerals that may also be construction crossbeams. They are arranged in three sides of a square, with Ethan standing inside with the open space behind him.

Maybe someone's going to make three Xanders and Buffy will have sex with all of them, outdoing even Anya's fantasy....

Wow...

Best. Fic. Ever.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

They are three dimensional roman numerals that may also be construction crossbeams. They are arranged in three sides of a square, with Ethan standing inside with the open space behind him.

Hmm....so, perhaps something to do with the number 30, or multiples thereof?

I hate numbers. They make my head hurt!

Now I'm thinking "fourth wall", due to Ethan's shakespeare referencing...but I think that's a step too far.

Oh, about that, what do people think of the "more an antique roman than a dane" reference? That would make him Horatio, Hamlet's scarcely-developed foil (of "Alas poor yorrick, I knew him horatio" fame)...and by implication of the quote, more rational than emotional perhaps? Or suicidal!!

Horatio's also an outside observer to Hamlet's craziness, a sounding board for him...maybe he's saying he's just Buffy's "witless foil" here (to quote Xander)?

Damn, does anyone have a scan of the page? Don't have it with me.





Best. Fic. Ever.

Heh. I'm sure Buffy would enjoy it too ;)

[Dorian's Kitten]

HMMM...things that come in threes. We have lost three beloved people: Joyce, Tara, Anya. Buffy's died three times (if we count when she was shot by Warren). Buffy's had three boyfriends (Parker couldn't count right?). Giles apparently got frisky with three women during his time in Sunnydale.
Clearly I am grasping at straws.

King of Cretins:Are you by any chance a Bander Shipper?:laughbounce: (Is my sarcasm coming through here?) Excellent determination and loyalty through the years; I hope you are given a little somethin' somethin' during season eight by way of vindication.

[KingofCretins]

Well, I've posted three fanfics on the actual site, and two of them have Buffy/Xander-ness. I am a definite 'shipper.

I am not going in for the symbolism theories on the comic yet. Take the Hamlet quote. Does it make him an outside observer? Yeah. And it's very possible that's *all* he is. Buffy had just said that her two best guesses to interpreting the "X" structure were "Vin Diesel and *****. I think that's the kind of thing that would lead a man like Ethan to dryly quote Shakespeare. The stuff I think is important in Ethan's talk is that "twilight is coming" -- that might be a play on the symbol that Buffy interpreted as "a beautiful sunset".

[tangent]

I bthink the three x's are going to be importan as only a few frames later ethan is telling buffy to remember what she see's here and ethan in the 'cage' is certainly the bit that jumps out at me as being a little different from the rest.

One interpretation of the three x's could be as a triple cross maybe? a warning that maybe ethan himself might not be trustworthy perhaps? or a warning to watch out for a previously redeemed bad guy?

But then again maybe its the fallen figure in the tunnel a couple of frames earlier that's imortant or something in the dream cubes.

[ciderdrinker]

So what do we think people c'mon share your opinions and seculations.

I haven't got an actual "hold in your hand" look at any of the issues yet, but I have read the transcripts on BWF, so can kinda answer (although the few post above me all go completely over my head). I read the transcripts for a few seasons of BtVS and AtS before actually watching them, so in a way I'm used to it. Mostly, I can really hear the voices and the intonations of the characters and that is way impressivo.

I was watching Damage yesterday and was wondering how the season 8 will explain what Andrew says about everyone's whereabouts. I know "Buffy in Rome/with the Immortal" has been explained already, but what about Willow and Xander (respectively South America and Africa)? Are we to presume that in the comics everyone has returned from these travels, or is it more of Andrew's lies? Quite clearly, Andrew has been spending time in England with Giles at the point of Damage (clue - the Union Flag on his brown lunch bag) so does he go to Italy after then, or was he lying about everything?

We get two other tie-in's during S5 of AtS, and only TGIQ has been explained, so far. I really would like to see the other side of Angel/Giles convo from AHITW, or at least a reference to it, if it happened before the comic starts (I'm a bit hazy on the timeline).

Other than that, I wanna see some "core four" time! If this is the last we're gonna get from Buffy, I want to see them all come full circle, in a more in-depth way then the "The Earth is Doomed" scene in Chosen.

[KingofCretins]

I was watching Damage yesterday and was wondering how the season 8 will explain what Andrew says about everyone's whereabouts. I know "Buffy in Rome/with the Immortal" has been explained already, but what about Willow and Xander (respectively South America and Africa)? Are we to presume that in the comics everyone has returned from these travels, or is it more of Andrew's lies? Quite clearly, Andrew has been spending time in England with Giles at the point of Damage (clue - the Union Flag on his brown lunch bag) so does he go to Italy after then, or was he lying about everything?

Right now, the safest assumption is that Andrew was actively providing "disinformation" to the people in L.A. In the case of Willow, particularly, the evidence is that nobody really knows what the heck Willow and Kennedy were up to for at least a year prior to "The Long Way Home". That pretty much precludes them knowing she and Kennedy were supposed to be working out of South America.

Or, Andrew might have thought she was, because maybe the fact that she was just sort of gone was a secret being kept by Buffy and Xander, and presumably Giles.

I can't figure that Xander was ever really in Africa, or rather, that if he was, he was just leading a mission of some kind.

We get two other tie-in's during S5 of AtS, and only TGIQ has been explained, so far. I really would like to see the other side of Angel/Giles convo from AHITW, or at least a reference to it, if it happened before the comic starts (I'm a bit hazy on the timeline).

Between this conversation and "Damage", the only thing that Andrew appeared to be telling the truth about is that the Scoobies don't trust Angel anymore. Now, again, because we know that Willow has been gone, Giles was being lying about Willow's whereabouts, but the fact is, he had no interest in helping Angel at all.

The comic is set around 6 months after "Not Fade Away".

[Dorian's Kitten]

The comic is set around 6 months after "Not Fade Away".

You're assuming that "Not Fade Away" is a year after "Chosen", but I don't know that it is necessarily the case. All of the seasons cannot be exactly the same length; the apocalypse cannot occur during the same week each year.

Now that I am done nitpicking, I will agree that it is probably at least a few months after NFA and probably not more than a year.

[KingofCretins]

You're right, I've assumed the same linear time flow for Angel Season 5 as for previous Angel and Buffy seasons. But, that doesn't make much sense since "Conviction" is only 19 days after "Chosen".

But, we do know that events in L.A. have already played themselves out for at least some time before we get to "The Long Way Home".

[ciderdrinker]

If the comic is set 6 months after NFA - then surely Buffy and the others would know what happened in the alley?

I doubt that even a untrusting Scooby gang in other parts of the world wouldn't find out about an apocalyptic battle in a alley in LA... so if what Joss says about Spike and Angel being used sparingly is true - then we can surmise that they at least survived?

Just a thought...

[KingofCretins]

More than that, there is a canon Season 6 Angel comic planned. So, they probably both survived, and it's likely Illyria did as well. I think on the Buffy side the inference is just that they either A) don't know about it, B) haven't investigated it, or C) don't associate with them anymore.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

More than that, there is a canon Season 6 Angel comic planned. So, they probably both survived, and it's likely Illyria did as well. I think on the Buffy side the inference is just that they either A) don't know about it, B) haven't investigated it, or C) don't associate with them anymore.

And Joss is trying to commit to as little as possible to leave himself free to write whatever he wants for the season 6 comic ;)

[KingofCretins]

Well, that is a factor, sure. But I don't figure that, after the Wolfram & Hart run, that the scoobies are going to be closely connected to Angel or Spike anymore.

[ciderdrinker]

Well, that is a factor, sure. But I don't figure that, after the Wolfram & Hart run, that the scoobies are going to be closely connected to Angel or Spike anymore.

You are joking surely? Buffy would never let what she had with Angel or Spike fade into nothingness. She will always care about what happens to them - maybe not quick to forgive them after the "Wolfram&Hart run" but she would at least want to know their side if she knew that they went up against an organisation such as the Circle of the Black Thorn. I doubt that the Scoobies would be as forgiving - especially Giles and Xander, so maybe they are deliberately not giving her all the facts. I always found it difficult to believe that Buffy would turn her back on "her" vampires so easily.

I agree that maybe Joss is playing it carefully, in case there is a canon comic for Angel. Also, in the later seasons of BtVS, what was going on in LA was only briefly mentioned if one of the cast members was directly involved with something going on there, so it follows that unless Joss is planning a sorta tie in, it won't be discussed (also the limitations of the length of the comics will leave more to the imagination than the TV episodes, so maybe we can presume it has been discussed off screen, so to speak)

Anyway, I'm rambling....

[KingofCretins]

You are joking surely? Buffy would never let what she had with Angel or Spike fade into nothingness. She will always care about what happens to them - maybe not quick to forgive them after the "Wolfram&Hart run" but she would at least want to know their side if she knew that they went up against an organisation such as the Circle of the Black Thorn. I doubt that the Scoobies would be as forgiving - especially Giles and Xander, so maybe they are deliberately not giving her all the facts. I always found it difficult to believe that Buffy would turn her back on "her" vampires so easily.

I'm not joking. As far as canon has given us reason to assume, Buffy personally authorized Andrew to retrieve Dana by force if necessary, and that she has no idea Spike is back. Black Thorn or not, Wolfram & Hart was never anything resembling the side of good, and Angel and the MoG just flat out blew it and essentially sold out by joining. Their plan to kill the Black Thorn served only as an effort to make amends.

At her core, Buffy is about the fight for good. You're either with it or you aren't. She doesn't leave a lot of room for ambiguity -- Spike is the only meaningful example of her not holding that standard, and, as mentioned, she has no idea that he's involved. I have no problem believing that she could lose confidence or trust in Angel given what she undoubtedly learned, namely that he was running Wolfram & Hart's LA office, and that they were trying to locate one of her Slayers.

I think it's a broad leap to assume that Giles and/or Xander would be withholding information from Buffy.

I don't doubt that she could make amends with either of them (Angel for the sell-out, Spike for A) working with him and B) hiding his return from her), but I personally suspect that the romance is finished with both vampires. The best they may be able to hope for is for her to trust them as allies again.

[Dorian's Kitten]

So the romance is finished, but she is still fantasizing about them?

I don't think Buffy's view of the world is so black and white that she would never trust them again because they made a difficult choice that was probably not the best. Certainly she would understand Angel's side if she had a chance to her it. She may even have understood it before and simply not felt they were the best place for Dana. Andrew could easily have dramatized that situation. "Were not so sure you're making the right choice here and we wont be leaving one of our troubled slayers with you" does not mean "I no longer have any trust in you and won't be associating with you in the future."

As far as being upset with Spike for not telling her that he was back, I think that there will be initial anger but I think she will understand where he was coming from. At first he wasn't even corporeal and couldn't leave L.A. and after he really had just accepted that he likely didn't have a real future with her and wanted to save them both some pain.

I think that you are overstating the divide between Buffy and her Vampires a bit.

[KingofCretins]

So the romance is finished, but she is still fantasizing about them?

First, it was an image pulled at random out of her memory bank of dreams. Second, haven't you ever fantasized about an ex? I mean, they are still a couple of hunky vampires, and two of the only four lovers she's had, that we know of.

I don't think Buffy's view of the world is so black and white that she would never trust them again because they made a difficult choice that was probably not the best. Certainly she would understand Angel's side if she had a chance to her it. She may even have understood it before and simply not felt they were the best place for Dana. Andrew could easily have dramatized that situation. "Were not so sure you're making the right choice here and we wont be leaving one of our troubled slayers with you" does not mean "I no longer have any trust in you and won't be associating with you in the future."

I don't think she would have seen Angel's side of it, since "it" presupposes that she would understand him going to Wolfram & Hart -- and *nobody* ever agreed with that that commented on it from outside their circle, ever. Not Spike, not Cordy, not *Lindsey*, not Giles, not Andrew, nor, presumably Buffy. The season itself concludes with them realizing it was a bad idea.

I seriously doubt Andrew would have taken a chance on lying about having Buffy's authority to threaten Angel, knowing that there would be a good chance it would get back to her.

As far as being upset with Spike for not telling her that he was back, I think that there will be initial anger but I think she will understand where he was coming from. At first he wasn't even corporeal and couldn't leave L.A. and after he really had just accepted that he likely didn't have a real future with her and wanted to save them both some pain.

From what I can tell, the place he was coming from was not wanting Buffy to think less of his sacrifice because it didn't stick, which is really about as shallow a reason as he could have come up with.

From the Buffyworld transcript:

HARMONY
But...what happened to Europe? Aren't you supposed to be slayer-chasing or something?

SPIKE
I was on my way. Had a boat ticket and all. Then I put a little thinking into it. A man can't go out in a bloody blaze of glory, savin' the world, and then show up 3 months later, tumbling off a cruise ship in the south of France. I mean, I'd love to, don't get me wrong, but, uh, it's hard to top an exit like that...I expect Buffy would be happy enough to see me. It's just, I gave up my life for her, the world, and if I show up now, flesh and bone, my grand finale won't hold much weight. All of it... won't matter.

Sure, later, Spike realizes he 'probably never' had a chance with Buffy, but his first reactions upon being corporeal again are to screw Harmony and to protect his heroic reputation.

I think that you are overstating the divide between Buffy and her Vampires a bit.

I think she could trust them again, but I don't think she could be in love with them. Especially not older and more mature.

[Dorian's Kitten]

First, it was an image pulled at random out of her memory bank of dreams. Second, haven't you ever fantasized about an ex? I mean, they are still a couple of hunky vampires, and two of the only four lovers she's had, that we know of.


She mentions that it's been a slow year as an excuse which certainly suggests it is a recent dream. As far as fantasizing about an ex, maybe one you still have good feelings about, not one you think is evil.


I don't think she would have seen Angel's side of it, since "it" presupposes that she would understand him going to Wolfram & Hart -- and *nobody* ever agreed with that that commented on it from outside their circle, ever. Not Spike, not Cordy, not *Lindsey*, not Giles, not Andrew, nor, presumably Buffy. The season itself concludes with them realizing it was a bad idea.


I'm saying that if Angel came to her and told her about Conner and said "Look I was there fighting and losing and the trying to take it down from the inside thing seemed like my best chance at the time", Buffy would understand. I'm not saying she would agree that it was a good choice; I'm saying she would be sympathetic to his reasons and thinking.


I seriously doubt Andrew would have taken a chance on lying about having Buffy's authority to threaten Angel, knowing that there would be a good chance it would get back to her.


Umm...making stuff up is what Andrew does. He lied/exaggerated to Buffy on several occasions. I don't mean to suggest he wasn't told to get Dana. I am just saying that the tough guy "whatever means necessary" bit could have been Andrew's addition.



From what I can tell, the place he was coming from was not wanting Buffy to think less of his sacrifice because it didn't stick, which is really about as shallow a reason as he could have come up with.

Sure, later, Spike realizes he 'probably never' had a chance with Buffy, but his first reactions upon being corporeal again are to screw Harmony and to protect his heroic reputation.


I think she could trust them again, but I don't think she could be in love with them. Especially not older and more mature.

I don't think we can assume that Spike shares all of his innermost thoughts with Harmony. What was he supposed to say: "Well all of my sodding life all I ever really wanted was the love and acceptance of a good woman and I'm afraid Buffy only said she loved me because she knew I was dying. If I see her now she may tell me she didn't mean it, cause God knows I don't deserve her. Well I don't think I can take that. I can't go back to standing off to the side and watching her go on dates with another man."

People don't say everything they are thinking and feeling.

You say he was only trying to protect his reputation. I say he was still too insecure about her affections. He was worried she only loved him because he died.

As far as not being in love with them anymore. I agree it is unlikely there will be any continuation of her relationships with them, but I do think she still loves them. I don't think love just goes away, it might change: be less romantic and more friendly, but I don't think she will just stop caring about them.

[KingofCretins]

She mentions that it's been a slow year as an excuse which certainly suggests it is a recent dream. As far as fantasizing about an ex, maybe one you still have good feelings about, not one you think is evil.

I don't think I agree that it has any bearing on one's feelings, but there is still the problem that by fantasizing about *both* of them she's undercutting any passionate devotion she has toward either on their own.

I'm saying that if Angel came to her and told her about Conner and said "Look I was there fighting and losing and the trying to take it down from the inside thing seemed like my best chance at the time", Buffy would understand. I'm not saying she would agree that it was a good choice; I'm saying she would be sympathetic to his reasons and thinking.

Well... that would also mean explaining that he very possibly *erased Buffy's own memory* of the fact that he had a kid. I mean, Willow knew it before she even showed up in L.A., Faith knew it when she got to Sunnydale, are we to assume Buffy didn't know about Connor and therefore wasn't affected by Vail's spell? I highly doubt that. So, accepting his reasons for going to Wolfram & Hart may also mean accepting that Angel messed with her memories.

Umm...making stuff up is what Andrew does. He lied/exaggerated to Buffy on several occasions. I don't mean to suggest he wasn't told to get Dana. I am just saying that the tough guy "whatever means necessary" bit could have been Andrew's addition.

I don't even like Andrew, and I'm willing to give him more credit. He threatened Angel's life. That is the sort of thing that could cause a guy to make a few angry phone calls. And cause someone caught lying about it more than a little bit of grief, not to mention authority. Also, if he wasn't authorized to use force... why send him there with a dozen Slayers? Based on what we know in Season 8, that is not the kind of thing he could have done off the books.

You say he was only trying to protect his reputation. I say he was still too insecure about her affections. He was worried she only loved him because he died.

I'm inclined to agree with him if he felt that way -- I've never thought she meant that she was in love with him in any lasting way in "Chosen".

As far as not being in love with them anymore. I agree it is unlikely there will be any continuation of her relationships with them, but I do think she still loves them. I don't think love just goes away, it might change: be less romantic and more friendly, but I don't think she will just stop caring about them.

We're tacitly on the same page now -- it's likely that Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike as romantic relationships are finished. I just think there is also a component where they would both need to earn back her trust.

[Dorian's Kitten]

I agree Buffy will not be pleased that he "messed with" her memory. But she would understand. Buffy would have done anything to save Dawn (did do anything) she will understand that Angel had to do whatever he could to protect his son.

I actually love Andrew. :) I just think he is prone to being overly dramatic. And just a thought: The slayers would have been needed to help protect Andrew from Dana.

[KingofCretins]

Yeah... but they were there to step out on cue and all that. I don't know. I thought the entire point of the episode was to demonstrate that Angel had gone further from his mission than even he realized in the starkest way possible, and that message is pretty much lost if it was just an illusion. Keep in mind, it was only Andrew because Tom Lenk is who was available. I thought they had wanted Sarah or Nick for "Damage" originally.

[Dorian's Kitten]

Yeah... but they were there to step out on cue and all that. I don't know. I thought the entire point of the episode was to demonstrate that Angel had gone further from his mission than even he realized in the starkest way possible, and that message is pretty much lost if it was just an illusion. Keep in mind, it was only Andrew because Tom Lenk is who was available. I thought they had wanted Sarah or Nick for "Damage" originally.

Ahh, you bring up an age old debate. :coffee: Do we base our opinions/arguments on what actually happened or upon what Joss and crew wanted to happen? I think that there are solid cases to be made for both ways, and I am not sure which way I am likely to go on that. However you do decide to go though, I think you (not you: King of Cretins, you: anyone) have to be consistent, meaning you can't decide that what Joss intended in one episode is important but that it is not important in a different episode; It's kind of like Constitutional Law.

[KingofCretins]

In this instance, I don't think it creates a major inconsistency. For the arc of the season, the episode is only supposed to play one way -- as a wake-up call to Angel. The only difference in who they cast is how resonant and in-your-face that wake-up call is. You are right in general, though, it's a tricky game to play, when you know they want one thing but had to do another.

I've said before I think "Damage" would have been much, much stronger if they'd played the same lines with Xander and not Andrew.

As a rule, though, I err on the side of the on-screen product.

[vampmogs]

She mentions that it's been a slow year as an excuse which certainly suggests it is a recent dream. As far as fantasizing about an ex, maybe one you still have good feelings about, not one you think is evil.

In season six Buffy calls Spike an "evil soulless thing!" and yet sleeps with him on numerous occasions. I don't think it'd exactly be a stretch to think she could have fantasies about sleeping with someone she thought may or may not be evil when she was actually doing it with someone she classified as evil.

I actually love Andrew. I just think he is prone to being overly dramatic. And just a thought: The slayers would have been needed to help protect Andrew from Dana.

That many slayers for one slayer? The scoobies obviously wanted to use Angel's resources to help them locate and capture Dana, the slayers were obviously there as a tool for the transition to take place smoothly. Basically, I doubt Andrew could a) Get hold of that many slayers b) Threaten Angel's life surrounded by that many slayers without Buffy hearing about it.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

In season six Buffy calls Spike an "evil soulless thing!" and yet sleeps with him on numerous occasions. I don't think it'd exactly be a stretch to think she could have fantasies about sleeping with someone she thought may or may not be evil when she was actually doing it with someone she classified as evil.

"I like my evil like I like my men. Evil"

Buffy, definitely not put off teh sex by teh evil!


That many slayers for one slayer? The scoobies obviously wanted to use Angel's resources to help them locate and capture Dana, the slayers were obviously there as a tool for the transition to take place smoothly. Basically, I doubt Andrew could a) Get hold of that many slayers b) Threaten Angel's life surrounded by that many slayers without Buffy hearing about it.

Though, I can imagine Andrew wheedling at Buffy for hours until she gets so sick of it she's like, fine, take the slayers!

But, yes, I doubt he could operate under the radar. This is the guy who painted the death star on the side of his van and had a star wars car horn. I know he's grown and changed since, but you can't make a sneaky ninja silk purse out of a flamboyantly klutzy sow's ear ;)

Buffy and co were probably taking extra care over where all their slayers were in the early days. Well, I know I would...suddenly having all these new charges, you'd want to keep track.

Unless...perhaps they didn't have the resources at the outset to keep tabs (only Willow's sense of the slayers' presence, and presumably she couldn't focus on them all the time all at once)...maybve they only got funding later....so it is conceivable that Andrew could've got away with it. Still, doesn't seem likely.

[vampmogs]

[QUOTE=Wolfie Gilmore;5464
Unless...perhaps they didn't have the resources at the outset to keep tabs (only Willow's sense of the slayers' presence, and presumably she couldn't focus on them all the time all at once)...maybve they only got funding later....so it is conceivable that Andrew could've got away with it. Still, doesn't seem likely.[/QUOTE]

I did think about this, the lack of high tech gizmos perhaps indicate they hadn't fully established themselves yet, or perhaps they didn't feel this was a mission worth suiting up for? It is also entirley possible they wanted to blend in with the folk of LA.

Ah it is so confusing.. posting on here and the Buffyworld forums at the same time! :confused3:

[KingofCretins]

"I like my evil like I like my men. Evil"

Not just a self-deprecating comment?

Though, I can imagine Andrew wheedling at Buffy for hours until she gets so sick of it she's like, fine, take the slayers!

Still, we're reaching into a lot of fanwankery just to deprive the scene of its face value, aren't we? And I still come back to wondering what the point of the scene was *at all* other than to illustrate that Angel had gotten so far away from his mission that even the scoobies didn't believe in him anymore -- which is not true if Andrew was lying.

[vampmogs]

Still, we're reaching into a lot of fanwankery just to deprive the scene of its face value, aren't we? And I still come back to wondering what the point of the scene was *at all* other than to illustrate that Angel had gotten so far away from his mission that even the scoobies didn't believe in him anymore -- which is not true if Andrew was lying.

I believe Andrew is telling the truth, Angel learns later in the seasons that he is in fact playing on the wrong side and this is obvious to everyone but the fang gang. It'd make sense that the scoobies like everyone else could see the situation for what it really was, the whole point of working at Wolfram and Hart was to try and corrupt Angel and keep him pre-occupied, so of course to Angel and to us as viewers who watch his experience, it appears they are still fighting on the good side.

[KingofCretins]

Honestly, the end of "Damage" was the most significant scene in Angel Season 5 to inform who Buffy and the gang are and how they work by the time we reach Season 8.

[Dorian's Kitten]

I just think we have to have an open mind to several possibly background stories for the lines Andrew has in that episode. We have already found out that he gave them false information: that Buffy was dating The Immortal. I would also like to point out, as evidence that he is clearly not always telling Buffy everything, that he apparently did not share with her the reason he thought that person was a "hilarious" choice of a partner for one of the fake Buffys. He clearly felt it was okay to hold back the fact that he was intentionally irritating/ hurting her exes from her. I don't think it is such a stretch that he also threatened them behind her back. It is just not beyond the realm of likely that he said other falsehoods that evening.

[KingofCretins]

I still put the difference off to the number of accomplices he would have needed in "Damage", which would have required tacit cooperation by at least 12 Slayers, Giles, and anyone else in the heirarchy that would have needed to know about the use of resources.

In "The Girl in Question", he basically needed the resources he already had at his control -- false information about Buffy's address and the overall cover story.

[ThePoet's<3]

Hmm... I just thought Andrew brought the Slayers to a) Look intimidating - because let's face it - Andrew does not inspire confidence! If I were one of his "Slayers in Training" I would be "tap-dancing" on Giles or Xander's desk demading that I be transferred to Buffy's Unit IMMEDIATELY! I mean - he was playing Strip Poker with them! UMMmm... Is that for when they go undercover killing Poker Demons??

And b) If Angel had decided to push his initial plan to take care of Dana himself - Andrew would not have been able to defend himself. He would have needed that many "Slayers in Training" to kill or subdue Angel at best.

I like Andrew - it was nice they incorporated him into the Buffy "story". But he almost seems to be the "front" man for the Buffy Inc. He'seems to be the flashy incompetent Trainer - so the the Big Bad will think the Slayer can't get her act together. Meanwhile the real training is going on at the Castle.

The Spike/Angel relationships... I believe they will play a part in the Season 8 series the way Angel and Buffy eventually settled in their respective worlds. Hopefully Joss/Creators will address both of them - especially Spike because Buffy doesn't know he's alive. I think also Angel will want to be "cleared" with Buffy on the W&H matter as well. I can actually see a lot of storylines coming out of that misunderstanding.
But I think the storylines will ease back into their respective worlds. With maybe an occasional "cross-over" team fight.

That of course will be up to Joss!

I hope Joss does an Angel 6!!!


ETA - Is anyone as excited as I am about tomorrow?!?! I can't wait to get my new Buffy!!!!

[KingofCretins]

Andrew is Buffy's press secretary, from what I can tell. He *is* there to sell Buffy's public persona, i.e. club-hopping arm candy, probably only semi-active. I don't think he even has Slayers around other than as additional cover, and that his role is more as house mother for whatever boarding school they might have younger Slayers set at as part of the cover.

Which is also why I think the fact that he had a bunch of Slayers with him in L.A. only lends more credence to what he says about his orders.

I have little trouble believing that Buffy could clear the air with Angel, and also Spike, but I don't think they could ever assimilate into the BHC.

[ThePoet's<3]

Andrew is Buffy's press secretary, from what I can tell. He *is* there to sell Buffy's public persona, i.e. club-hopping arm candy, probably only semi-active. I don't think he even has Slayers around other than as additional cover, and that his role is more as house mother for whatever boarding school they might have younger Slayers set at as part of the cover.

Which is also why I think the fact that he had a bunch of Slayers with him in L.A. only lends more credence to what he says about his orders.

I have little trouble believing that Buffy could clear the air with Angel, and also Spike, but I don't think they could ever assimilate into the BHC.

That's what I get from Andrew's job as well - although in the comic it is a bit confusing because he seems to actually be training them. Is that the way you interpreted the scenes? It almost reminded me a bit of he and Anya training the Slayers in the basement with flip charts!

I don't see Joss incorporating the Vampires on a permanent basis. He was very deliberate in separating Buffy and Angel in Angel Season One. So, if he does another comic series - Angel 6 - I would imagine it would be the same. Just cross-overs here and there.

But I don't think it would be like Buffy not to be "understanding" about how Angel came to be with W&H. He made a mistake and has tried to fix it. I always thought it would be great if at that last moment when Team Angel was facing the Big Bad in the alley - Buffy and Co. would show up and help them get out at the last minute.

[KingofCretins]

I always thought it would be great if at that last moment when Team Angel was facing the Big Bad in the alley - Buffy and Co. would show up and help them get out at the last minute.

Absolutely is not happening, according to the guy that's going to be heading up the Angel Season 6 mini-series. And I agree, since I think it would be a little cheap. I don't *want* huge casualties for Angel's team, but it already feels a little cheap that their admitted suicide mission is not as costly as they suggested.

I'm sure Buffy would probably forgive Angel for abandoning the mission if he gets a chance to explain it, but as things stood in "Damage", it makes complete sense that she wouldn't trust him at that point.

[vampmogs]

Okay I have just read some spoilers for Buffy Issue 4,5 and 6. Some you may know, others you may not.

In Issue 4 Buffy battles the US Military

In Issue 5 a slayer close to Buffy dies

In Issue 6 Faith has a go at 'My Fair Lady' against a high society slayer gone rouge.

Someone has a secret crush on Buffy (Xander) and Buffy will have a 'familiar stalker-type' begin following her (the guy in the boots?)

[KingofCretins]

I'd spoiler tag those if you could, since it's not a spoiler thread per se.

That said XANDER is the kisser, then! XANDER! XANDER! YOU DA MAN XAN!

*ahem*

[vampmogs]

I actually don't know how to spoiler tag on these forums? I can't find the Shh icon anywhere?

Oh Xander isn't the man for sure, I just put his name in there because I think its obvious it will be Xander.

[KingofCretins]

manually add [ spoiler ] and [ /spoiler ] (without spaces) to the text.

And there I was all excited. I still like the theory on the main site where the reason Joss didn't show the kiss was because it was basically a given and they didn't want to show us a kiss that wasn't a *real* kiss if they are going with a Buffy/Xander story.

[vampmogs]

manually add [ spoiler ] and [ /spoiler ] (without spaces) to the text.

And there I was all excited. I still like the theory on the main site where the reason Joss didn't show the kiss was because it was basically a given and they didn't want to show us a kiss that wasn't a *real* kiss if they are going with a Buffy/Xander story.

I can't believe I didn't think of it manually? I haven't been getting much sleep lately lol :coffee:

Sorry to get your hopes up but I just assumed that it would be Xander, just as I assumed the boots would be Buffy's stalker? I wonder what they mean by 'familiar stalker type'? Does this mean someone we have had before? All I can think of are Angel and Spike and I doubt that very much? Or do they just mean yet another person will start stalking Buffy?

[KingofCretins]

We don't really know anybody who can fly in the Buffyverse other than Dracula, and he was in bat form. So I don't assume anything about the boots guy. Xander as the kisser just makes far more sense than any other possibility.

I doubt they use Spike or Angel in a role like that, especially since neither is going to be a frequent character in this book.

[bishopcruz]

Sill hoping for Xander, I REALLY hope that
Satsu is a red herring. Mainly because if she isn't it MAKES NO DAMNED SENSE!!!!!!!!!!!

[ThePoet's<3]

Absolutely is not happening, according to the guy that's going to be heading up the Angel Season 6 mini-series. And I agree, since I think it would be a little cheap. I don't *want* huge casualties for Angel's team, but it already feels a little cheap that their admitted suicide mission is not as costly as they suggested.

I'm sure Buffy would probably forgive Angel for abandoning the mission if he gets a chance to explain it, but as things stood in "Damage", it makes complete sense that she wouldn't trust him at that point.

The ending of NFA was not well done. It implied that this was the Big Apocalypse (and it certainly looked pretty bad too!) But, commentary I've read has implied that this scene was left this way because it was "just another day at the office fighting an apocolypse - not THE apocalypse". And there's not many more "huge" casualties left for Team Angel! Gunn, Spike, Illyria and Angel - that's it.

What more can you share about Angel Miniseries Season 6? Do you have a link? I've heard rumors through this board but this is the first I've heard of it being a mini-series.

I'd spoiler tag those if you could, since it's not a spoiler thread per se.

That said XANDER is the kisser, then! XANDER! XANDER! YOU DA MAN XAN!

*ahem*

That's okay, man. You deserve it. It felt right. ;)


The familiar Stalker... Hmmm... I thought we decided that "Flying Boots Man" was Ethan? Did we decide that? Or did I make that executive decision alone?!? :D

[Nostalgia]

I seriously don't think it was Ethan if we now know he is locked up in a military cell. How would Ethan even be able to fly? I believe that Ethan was trying to contact Buffy through her dreams because he knew that there was no other way because he was stuck in cell 30.

I really don't understand where people get the idea that Buffy has completely lost trust in Angel. I have to watch "Damage" again.. can someone give me a quick synopsis of what happens? And any important details?

[KingofCretins]

When Angel and his people find out they are after a Slayer, they call Giles, who in turn sends Andrew to consult them and assist in finding her. Andrew mostly just observes the goings-on, until Dana is finally captured.

That's when it gets interesting. Andrew stops Angel and, diplomatically enough, thanks him for his hard work and says that they'll take it from there, that Dana is "one of (theirs)" and not Angel's responsibility. When Angel tries to blow him off, Andrew doesn't back down, and in fact marches out a dozen Slayers to emphasize his point -- that Dana is coming with him, one way or another. Angel tries to talk big and says that he'll just call and clear it with Buffy, to which Andrew replies "Where do you think my orders came from?" He then informs a thunderstruck Angel that the Scoobies don't trust him anymore, that he sided up with Wolfram & Hart, and that's all there is to it.

Here's the transcript of the dialogue from BW, spoilered for length:

ANDREW
That's all right, boys. I'll take it from here.

ANGEL
What?

ANDREW
Totally 'preciate your help on this one, big guy. Never could've found her without you, but you got enough problems of your own to worry about.

ANGEL
Get outta the way, Andrew.

ANDREW
(steps in Angel's path)
She's a slayer. That means she's ours.

ANGEL
Yeah. Sorry. Not how it works.
(to the guards) Load her up. Don't hesitate to tranq her if she so much as—

ANDREW
(stands right up in Angel's face)
No. I don't think you... heard me, Angel.
(a group of young women walks out from the shadows to back up Andrew)
Think we're just gonna let you take her back to your evil stronghold? Well, as they say in Mexico... No. We're not...gonna... let you.

ANGEL
She's psychotic, and I'm not turning her over...to you.

ANDREW
You don't have a choice. Check the view screen, Uhura. I got 12 Vampyr Slayers behind me, and not one of them has ever dated you. She's coming with us one way or another.

ANGEL
You're way outta your league. I'll just clear this with Buffy.

ANDREW
Where do you think my orders came from? News flash—nobody in our camp trusts you anymore. Nobody. You work for Wolfram & Hart. Don't fool yourself... we're not on the same side. Thank you for your help... but, uh...we got it.
(gestures to the girls to get Dana)

[Nostalgia]

We all saw that Angel had even fooled his own group at one point.. he made everyone think that he was evil... when he really was not. I cannot truely think that after everything they had been through.. after the cookie dough speech and the bright hopes for the future that Buffy would lose complete trust in her once loving man. Buffy knows Angel better than that.

Maybe she was just confused.. I really think it's just smoke in mirrors thanks to Andrew.

[KingofCretins]

Buffy didn't know Angel had joined Evil, Inc. when she made the cookie dough speech. And I think you might be being too kind when you say "and he really was not". There is very little about Angel that is "good" in Season 5 of that show.

I have a much easier time believing that the much less relativist Scoobies lost trust in Angel than I do that Andrew, on his own, could coopt a dozen Slayers without knowledge or consent from the BHC and run his own game on Angel, who had never met and had nothing to gain by playing a prank on.

What I don't buy is that she would only fail to trust Angel out of 'confusion'. There is not one person that looked at what Angel had done from the outside that thought it was smart or good. Spike knew it was a lousy idea. Cordy knew it was a lousy idea. And apparently Buffy knew it was a bad idea, too. What Angel and his gang refused to accept despite the obviousness of the thing is that they *were not* doing anything good at W&H. As Lindsey reveals, it was a ploy to draw them out of the good fight, and it worked perfectly.

[bishopcruz]

Rereading that scene just reminds me of how much cooler it would have been with Xander instead of Andrew, especially S8 Xander.

Back to the comic, who else thinks that we need some more guys hanging around? I am kinda loathe to mention this as most new male characters on Buffy have a tendency to pussify Xander, but I think as far as regulars are concerned, we have very few men around at all right now.

[KingofCretins]

"Damage" would have been so much better with Nick Brendan, no question. That would have become one of the most memorable scenes on either show.

More male characters would be reasonable, as long as they are not:

A) imported specifically as Buffy love interests, and
B) actually have a logically, plot relevant purpose.

I'd like to meet the thricewise, Kenny. It's obvious that Riley will cameo at some point because of the Army connection to Twilight.

[Nostalgia]

Originally Posted by KingofCretins
Buffy didn't know Angel had joined Evil, Inc. when she made the cookie dough speech. And I think you might be being too kind when you say "and he really was not". There is very little about Angel that is "good" in Season 5 of that show.

Really?! Saving the world.. sometimes you have to make sacrifices.

[KingofCretins]

Precisely when was it that he saved the world in Season 5?

[Nostalgia]

Okay.. you caught me. ;). But still.. let me rephrase this:


You have to make sacrifices in attempting to the save the world.

[bishopcruz]

"Damage" would have been so much better with Nick Brendan, no question. That would have become one of the most memorable scenes on either show.

More male characters would be reasonable, as long as they are not:

A) imported specifically as Buffy love interests, and
B) actually have a logically, plot relevant purpose.

I'd like to meet the thricewise, Kenny. It's obvious that Riley will cameo at some point because of the Army connection to Twilight.

Man, I almost want to rewrite "Damage" with Xander in it, maybe when I'm done writing my Xander/Angel (NON-SHIP, just the two main characters) fic.

anyhow, as to the male characters. I agree with you completely. I actually hope there is a good arc with Riley in S8, as I think there are a lot of storyline possibilities to mine with that character, especially if he has to decide where his alliances lie.

[vampmogs]

We all saw that Angel had even fooled his own group at one point.. he made everyone think that he was evil... when he really was not. I cannot truely think that after everything they had been through.. after the cookie dough speech and the bright hopes for the future that Buffy would lose complete trust in her once loving man. Buffy knows Angel better than that.

Maybe she was just confused.. I really think it's just smoke in mirrors thanks to Andrew.

We find out near the end of the season that Angel is in fact working on the wrong side as are the rest of the fang gang and the Senior Partner's plan all along was to keep Angel distracted by working at Wolfram and Hart whilst the apocalypse happened right under their noses. So Buffy was in fact right in believing that Angel had turned evil because he was in fact working on the wrong side; it was just unknown to them at the time as they were consumed by Wolfram and Hart and believed they were changing the place from the inside. To everyone else, including Buffy, it was evident Angel was fighting on evil’s team and hence, she didn’t trust him with one of her own.

[Jenni Lou]

I just read the first three today. About to read the fourth in a minute.

Xander is so far my character of the season though and about time too. Mr harris certainly seems to have found his niche at slayer HQ.


Me too!

I also am finding the Andrew bits hilarious.

I am not much of a comic bok reader but my fiance has been buying them for me and I finally made myself read them. Now I can't wait to see what happens next!

One thing I am not too keen on is the obligatory cameos...like Amy and Ethan Rayne. I guess it is better to have them then some more new characters but I found their presence a little odd. :/

JI'm also vigorously hoping for Buffy/Xander, and I do think that he kissed her, no matter how "obvious" it might be.

It does seem to be swaying in that direction. I was shocked by the possibility of it because it always seemed utterly non-canon to me, but I do like it! :)

[Sosa lola]

These are probably the best S8 transcripts I ever read, they're done by stormwreath. Transcript + commentary = the best meta.

Issue 1 (http://stormwreath.livejournal.com/18508.html) and Issue 2 (http://stormwreath.livejournal.com/18824.html?#cutid1)

[KingofCretins]

These are probably the best S8 transcripts I ever read, they're done by stormwreath. Transcript + commentary = the best meta.

Issue 1 and Issue 2

*sniff sniff*:cry2: :cutecry: :twak: :sadwalk:

[Jenni Lou]

Those are great transcripts and I love the running commentary. I will have to leave a comment later. :) Thanks for the links!!

[Sosa lola]

KingofCretins, your transcripts are also awesome!! *pouts* I left a link to your transcripts in Buffyworld in My LJ so people can read and enjoy them :) Did you post your transcripts here? You really should.

[Jenni Lou]

KingofCretins, your transcripts are also awesome!! *pouts* I left a link to your transcripts in Buffyworld in My LJ so people can read and enjoy them :) Did you post your transcripts here? You really should.

I did not realize you had written some. Now I see what you were crying about. :p But you did indeed post them here! (http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?t=164) :)

[SlayerGirl]

Hey guys I was a member of the old forum and I kinda lost track of everything.
Now I know that is may not be the place to ask for this...
I am from Greece and I bought the 1st comic but due to circumstances I cannot buy the others one that are published. Does anyone know where I can find them in pdf form? Thanks guys and sorry if this aint the right place.

[Ehlwyen]

Hi SlayerGirl! Glad that you found us. :D

Unfortunately due to copyright issues we consider actual pdf, jpg, or other viewable copy of comics in the same manner as illegal downloading of television shows. So we do not allow any discussion of such a topic.

However, one of our members has taken the time to transcribe the comics HERE (http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?t=164), if you wish to read what happens and his interpretation of the visuals.

[ThePoet's<3]

I got word last week that my S8 Issue #5 is available for me to pick up

THIS WEEK!!!:2party:

I'm so excited about this!!!:hf2:

Is anyone else receiving their Issue #5 this week??

[Jenni Lou]

Not that I heard (or that I've checked). And my friends own the comic book shop here.

[vampmogs]

I got word last week that my S8 Issue #5 is available for me to pick up

THIS WEEK!!!:2party:

I'm so excited about this!!!:hf2:

Is anyone else receiving their Issue #5 this week??

I recieved an email today (July 25th) saying that it has been shipped to me, and since I live in Australia it usually takes around 13 days. I was amazed as it isn't supposed to come out till early August, and you appear to have had a similair thing happen to you. I wonder why this happening? Although I'm far from complaining.. means I get Buffy earlier! :2party: :D :hf2:

[ThePoet's<3]

I received mine today!! Issue #5 about the unknown Slayer...! I was very surprised! But I will wait till you all receive yours for discussion. Overall I think the story is good but I have a couple of questions.

[vampmogs]

I received mine today!! Issue #5 about the unknown Slayer...! I was very surprised! But I will wait till you all receive yours for discussion. Overall I think the story is good but I have a couple of questions.

My friend just recieved theirs today as well, if you want spoiler tag what you want to ask and I'll see if I can answer them for you cause I know what happens as well :) I most certainly have some questions as well :)

[ThePoet's<3]

My friend just recieved theirs today as well, if you want spoiler tag what you want to ask and I'll see if I can answer them for you cause I know what happens as well :) I most certainly have some questions as well :)

Was the Slayer telling the story and the Slayer in the story two different Slayers or the same? Because at the beginning she says, (or is it Buffy speaking?) "The funny part about all this? I never even met her." And at the end, ""You don't even know who I am. But I do." Are we not to have known her?

I thought the storyline was quite interesting. I still haven't decided if I "like" it or not!:D It left me with a strange feeling! I suppose it was to be taken quite generically but I have a feeling this story will come back to us in the future. Perhaps the military force using this Slayer's story as amunition against Buffy?

I think - I like the anonymity of the Slayer - never knowing her name. And lots of mention of "name" and the meaning of names and about the name "Buffy". Found that quite intriguing as well.

[vampmogs]

Was the Slayer telling the story and the Slayer in the story two different Slayers or the same? Because at the beginning she says, (or is it Buffy speaking?) "The funny part about all this? I never even met her." And at the end, ""You don't even know who I am. But I do." Are we not to have known her?

I think it is supposed to be the same slayer. As you said, the importance of names is a major theme in this Issue- mainly because this slayer is assuming someone else's identity when she herself needs to be strong. It is kind of like at the end that we never knew who she was but she did, and that is something she needed and she can live with because she knew who she was. I dunno it is hard to explain, do you understand what I'm trying to say? I could be saying it really confusignly and chances are I'm totally incorrect :)

I thought the storyline was quite interesting. I still haven't decided if I "like" it or not!:D It left me with a strange feeling! I suppose it was to be taken quite generically but I have a feeling this story will come back to us in the future. Perhaps the military force using this Slayer's story as amunition against Buffy?

I haven't actually seen it yet, I've just heard all about it so I know pretty much what went on. But from what I've heard it did seem quite an odd issue. Especially with the slayer advertisement and the fairies and just the general idea behind the story. I guess it is supposed to leave you with that weird kind of feeling but it is definitly strange.

It would be great if the military force used that against Buffy.

I think - I like the anonymity of the Slayer - never knowing her name. And lots of mention of "name" and the meaning of names and about the name "Buffy". Found that quite intriguing as well.

Yeah it is most certainly interesting. I think it is a lot about finding yourself and needing to be your own strong person. One of the variant covers has a poster saying "You need to be strong!" and I kind of think this is what it means. Although, again I could be completely wrong :roll:

[ThePoet's<3]

[/SPOILER]

I think it is supposed to be the same slayer. As you said, the importance of names is a major theme in this Issue- mainly because this slayer is assuming someone else's identity when she herself needs to be strong. It is kind of like at the end that we never knew who she was but she did, and that is something she needed and she can live with because she knew who she was. I dunno it is hard to explain, do you understand what I'm trying to say? I could be saying it really confusignly and chances are I'm totally incorrect :)



I haven't actually seen it yet, I've just heard all about it so I know pretty much what went on. But from what I've heard it did seem quite an odd issue. Especially with the slayer advertisement and the fairies and just the general idea behind the story. I guess it is supposed to leave you with that weird kind of feeling but it is definitly strange.

It would be great if the military force used that against Buffy.



[SPOILER]Yeah it is most certainly interesting. I think it is a lot about finding yourself and needing to be your own strong person. One of the variant covers has a poster saying "You need to be strong!" and I kind of think this is what it means. Although, again I could be completely wrong :roll:


No - I think we are on the same thought path here.

Here's another part I thought interesting...

She asks if she got the hardest, darkest pat to walk because she is strong and can handle the burden or because she was weak and expendable the one that won't be missed? She then says, "The truth? There is no truth."

I think this Slayer represents all of the Slayers. And the call they have all responded too. We have gone from two Slayers (Buffy/Faith) to almost 2000 Slayers. (it actually says something about that at the beginning of this issue) A person's own identity could become so mired in what "Slayer" means. So, this issue is to remind us that each Slayer is still an individual - but an individual who is part of the Slayer Team. How can one maintain one's identity in such a case? Or how one sacrifices one's identity? Such as a soldier in an army.

Yeah - the fairies got me there... I'm thinking Fairies? Or Fairies...? Or what I mean is - I began questioning everything I saw and was reading in the panes! Do the Fairies "mean" something?!? :D As is the scene where the "Slug" says the Slayer "passed the test" and "the last one to fall this far years ago HE gave us your language. And this pretty necklace because HE didn't pass. I thougt the HE part was very interesting. Who was HE? And why didn't HE pass the test?

[Jenni Lou]

Hey, why don't you guys start a new thread for Issue #5 and then you don't have to worry about the spoiler tags? It's up to you but it's just a suggestion. ;)

[vampmogs]

No - I think we are on the same thought path here.

Hasn't happened very often lately. It's a welcomed change of pace :)

She asks if she got the hardest, darkest pat to walk because she is strong and can handle the burden or because she was weak and expendable the one that won't be missed? She then says, "The truth? There is no truth."

I think this Slayer represents all of the Slayers. And the call they have all responded too. We have gone from two Slayers (Buffy/Faith) to almost 2000 Slayers. (it actually says something about that at the beginning of this issue) A person's own identity could become so mired in what "Slayer" means. So, this issue is to remind us that each Slayer is still an individual - but an individual who is part of the Slayer Team. How can one maintain one's identity in such a case? Or how one sacrifices one's identity? Such as a soldier in an army.

This is exactly what I was thinking. It is extremely hard to establish your own identity when your suddenly part of something huge. In a way it is the very opposite of what the slayer used to face but in some ways blends it all together. As the only slayer in the world you were the slayer, the Chosen One. This created all kinds of problems but it something characters like Faith yearned for- which is when the jealousy set in. Yet, at the same time this made you isolated, made you loose some of your own identity. Buffy and Faith feel incredibly alone and being the slayer makes them different. Travers states the slayer is the tool in which they fight the war, it is extremely hard to establish your own identity when your just a tool :roll:

Now things are slightly different- a slayer is one of many and it is hard to establish your own identity and be strong when your part of nearly 2000 others just like you. Basically it is what Faith went through all multipled by thousands :) And of course in this slayer's case it is even harder when you have to assume someone else's identity, someone seemingly more important and precious than you.

Yeah - the fairies got me there... I'm thinking Fairies? Or Fairies...? Or what I mean is - I began questioning everything I saw and was reading in the panes! Do the Fairies "mean" something?!? :D As is the scene where the "Slug" says the Slayer "passed the test" and "the last one to fall this far years ago HE gave us your language. And this pretty necklace because HE didn't pass. I thougt the HE part was very interesting. Who was HE? And why didn't HE pass the test?

This is where I get a little fuzzy. My friend and I didn't get into the main details of what was going on so I'm afriad I am a little lousy in this department. But feel free to share about the storyline if you have time, I don't mind being spoiled.

[some spykie ship]

When I read the part about there being a Buffy decoy in Rome with The Immortal, I immediately remembered something. A fan called this! There was a virtual season in BW where it was a Buffy look-a-like who Buffy didn't even know doing stuff with The Immortal. Of course it was the army that engineered it and not The Scoobies, but the concept was still there. I think Scott Allie wrote something in Slay the Critics asking whether or not anyone predicted anything that was happening so far. I hope that person writes in.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

When I read the part about there being a Buffy decoy in Rome with The Immortal, I immediately remembered something. A fan called this! There was a virtual season in BW where it was a Buffy look-a-like who Buffy didn't even know doing stuff with The Immortal. Of course it was the army that engineered it and not The Scoobies, but the concept was still there. I think Scott Allie wrote something in Slay the Critics asking whether or not anyone predicted anything that was happening so far. I hope that person writes in.

Hmm....don't think you're talking about the official season 8, but we had Andrew making up the idea that Buffy was dating the Immortal like in this one. I'm thinking that the notion of Buffy with the Immortal seems so fanficky that ANdrew's the obvious source of the notion...ergo various people (official and unofficial) coming up with that idea. Ditto fake Buffy's...since it wasn't really SMG in the girl in question, that's one take you could have on it...that it's not really Buffy either.

[KingofCretins]

I think the Season 8 by Alex had that, sort of. Writing out the Immortal from Buffy's love life was such a great move by Joss. I know it hung a lot of fanfic and Nancy Holder's book out to dry, but he sucked too much to justify. That's why I'm trying to reinvent him as a decent villain.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I think the Season 8 by Alex had that, sort of. Writing out the Immortal from Buffy's love life was such a great move by Joss. I know it hung a lot of fanfic and Nancy Holder's book out to dry, but he sucked too much to justify. That's why I'm trying to reinvent him as a decent villain.

I think he works so much better as a cover story. Quite glad we never saw him either, so he's all the more cloaked in myth and puff.

I'd like to see him though....perhaps played in a similar way to that chap in Dangerous Liaisons...lord/count/whatever who plays the mind games with the lady whose name escapes me also.

Nancy Holder's shite, so I've no qualms about her being washing lined :)

I'm interested to see how many fanfic season 8 things end up in the real season 8....there are so many alt!8's out there that surely the monkey/typewriter theory must hold? Well, not monkeys...but sheer volume of writing.

[KingofCretins]

I've put him in "Game of Love", where he is essentially the central villain, in a narcissistic rage over finding out that his "Buffy" isn't, in fact, the legendary Slayer and ultimate supernatural sub-culture arm candy.

I thought "Queen of the Slayers" was absurd.

[Heather]

I have a question, actually, about "Queen of the Slayers:" at the time of its publication, were we supposed to take that as canon? Because, the writing isn't top notch at all but I do think that the storyline/concept of it was interesting enough - hence, I rewrote the concept in "Chosen." But aside from an nice plot, everything else as weak and I'd hate to think that that was supposed to be canon before the comics came out...

And, speaking of the comics, I would like to say that I agree Joss was smart in doing the write-out of Buffy and the Immortal. It kinda gave Spuffy and Bangel closure back in "The Girl in Question," in my opinion, which was the right thing at the time but now, with the comics for Season 8 and eventually Angel Season 6, having written out the Immortal, I think Spuffy and Bangel fans can be happy that the REAL Buffy didn't love the Immortal.

And WOW that paragraph just seemed very ranty... :p

Oh and I've only read 2 of the comics, and while a comic continuation didn't make me jump with joy at first, I think it's going along pretty well. I was kinda disappointed that the storyline's rather slow but I think that that's only because they have the stories split up amongst issues.

Question and I bet this has been asked and answered before, but I'm wondering: are each of the story arcs (IE: "The Long Way Home" Pts. 1-4) supposed to be like...an episode? Or a couple of episodes? Or is it not even comparable?

[Jenni Lou]

Question and I bet this has been asked and answered before, but I'm wondering: are each of the story arcs (IE: "The Long Way Home" Pts. 1-4) supposed to be like...an episode? Or a couple of episodes? Or is it not even comparable?

I was thinking about that too and I am leaning towards the its not even comparable. While the issues can be quite episode in their individual story and arc, I am thinking that if it were a filmed episode it would be lacking in material to fill 42 minutes of time.

[KingofCretins]

I have a question, actually, about "Queen of the Slayers:" at the time of its publication, were we supposed to take that as canon? Because, the writing isn't top notch at all but I do think that the storyline/concept of it was interesting enough - hence, I rewrote the concept in "Chosen." But aside from an nice plot, everything else as weak and I'd hate to think that that was supposed to be canon before the comics came out...

I actually gave up and started skimming that book. I never heard anything to suggest it was supposed to be canon, I think people just reacted to it like that because it was set after "Chosen".

And, speaking of the comics, I would like to say that I agree Joss was smart in doing the write-out of Buffy and the Immortal. It kinda gave Spuffy and Bangel closure back in "The Girl in Question," in my opinion, which was the right thing at the time but now, with the comics for Season 8 and eventually Angel Season 6, having written out the Immortal, I think Spuffy and Bangel fans can be happy that the REAL Buffy didn't love the Immortal.

I think it still works as closure on Angel and Spike, because Andrew's message to them was still valid -- Buffy has moved on with her life. Any 'shipping interests aside, I don't think Buffy has time in her life for "jealous vampire crap" and everything else that went with those relationships.

Question and I bet this has been asked and answered before, but I'm wondering: are each of the story arcs (IE: "The Long Way Home" Pts. 1-4) supposed to be like...an episode? Or a couple of episodes? Or is it not even comparable?

I think of each issue as an episode for the purpose of referencing, but the structure could work as each issue in a four part arc being an "act" of a single episode. If one were to try to put them on TV, it would probably be one issue per episode, just expanded in detail.

[vampmogs]

I tend to think that each arc was supposed to be on episode. Each Issue has roughly about fifteen minutes worth of content in it, so I think one arc could work as one episode with the standalones being fleshed out enough to be an episode on their own. The whole first arc really works as a first episode for the season, slowly introducing each character throughout the act.

Does anyone wish season eight was done as the Animated serious, now that'd be cool.

[Jenni Lou]

I tend to think that each arc was supposed to be on episode. Each Issue has roughly about fifteen minutes worth of content in it, so I think one arc could work as one episode with the standalones being fleshed out enough to be an episode on their own. The whole first arc really works as a first episode for the season, slowly introducing each character throughout the act.


It seems that way to me a bit too but then I wonder where those stand alones come into play...I think that maybe the first four issues was done in parts because it made for a good season opener and gave time to re-introduce the characters and set up new villians. But I don't expect that we are going to be getting tons of four-part arcs. Unless I'm wrong? I haven't actually read any spoilers and I don't know how they are planning to do the season...

I'm just not a comic book reader. I'm trying not over think things like this. :p

[some spykie ship]

You know how sometimes Joss sometimes plans his seasonal arcs about two years ahead of time? I wonder if, when The Girl in Question was being done, Joss already had it in mind that it wasn't going to be Buffy, like he would have cleared the whole thing up like he has in S8 if AtS had aired past the time that Spike and Angel left W&H. I guess the only problem with my theory is that I read somewhere that they tried to get SMG to come on to AtS, which would defeat the purpose of teasing about whether or not the girl dancing with The Immortal was really Buffy.

I sort of got four of the comics at the same time, so naturally my impression was that one arc makes an episode, but I too have trouble figuring how the stand-alone issues would fit in, unless there will be several stand-alone issues spread throughout the season and Joss is telling the stories this way simply because he can.

I don't mean to start a Spike-debate, but I'm waiting for someone to find him and recruit him. Not just because he's one of my favorite characters on the show, but because he was a BtVS villain, etc. long before he was on AtS, so he technically belongs with The Scoobies, whether he's Buffy's boyfriend or not.

[Jenni Lou]

I don't mean to start a Spike-debate, but I'm waiting for someone to find him and recruit him. Not just because he's one of my favorite characters on the show, but because he was a BtVS villain, etc. long before he was on AtS, so he technically belongs with The Scoobies, whether he's Buffy's boyfriend or not.

Now that we know there is also going to be an AtS season six, it should be interesting to see where Spike fits into things in the whole of the Jossverse. He could very well appear in both series. I hadn't actually thought about Spike until I just read your post but now I am kind of curious about where he will re-emerge first...

[some spykie ship]

I've been thinking back on Xander's frequent merging on homophobia in the past. He keeps such close contact with Andrew, and doesn't seem to notice Renee flirting with him that much. Do you think Xander will come out in this season? Does anyone know what it meant when Xander said that his mom would say that the action he's been getting would make his remaining eye go blind?

[Anon]

I've been thinking back on Xander's frequent merging on homophobia in the past.Homophobia? Sorry, what? Admittedly this entire sentence doesn't have any meaning that I can make out, but I really don't think that 'Homophobia' is the word you were looking for.

[tangent]

If the question is regarding Xander and Homosexuality then i would probably venture that he won't be declared as being gay during season 8. I'm not all that sure that Xander has ever really indicated that he has gfay tendencies. Sure he's a sensitive caring bloke but then aren't we all at heart?:rolleyes:
He also does form a bond with Andrew (whose gayness is another debate altogether) but i think this is the recognition of one geek to another.

I think he does recognise Renee's interest but there are also hints of a Bander relationship coming into play. I also think the loss of Anya in battle might make him a bit more hesitant to form a relationship with someone who is basically a soldier in the slayer army.

As or the going blind comment, can we just say questionable personal habits and leave it there?

[vampmogs]

It seems that way to me a bit too but then I wonder where those stand alones come into play...I think that maybe the first four issues was done in parts because it made for a good season opener and gave time to re-introduce the characters and set up new villians. But I don't expect that we are going to be getting tons of four-part arcs. Unless I'm wrong? I haven't actually read any spoilers and I don't know how they are planning to do the season...

I'm just not a comic book reader. I'm trying not over think things like this. :p

The season is going to play out like this.

Four Issue Arc
Standalone
Four Issue Arc
Standalone

and so forth... :)

You know how sometimes Joss sometimes plans his seasonal arcs about two years ahead of time? I wonder if, when The Girl in Question was being done, Joss already had it in mind that it wasn't going to be Buffy, like he would have cleared the whole thing up like he has in S8 if AtS had aired past the time that Spike and Angel left W&H. I guess the only problem with my theory is that I read somewhere that they tried to get SMG to come on to AtS, which would defeat the purpose of teasing about whether or not the girl dancing with The Immortal was really Buffy.

Originally Joss started writing s8 with Buffy dating the Immortal and in Italy but decided to change it, something I'm personally greatful for. So na I don't think he ever had this in his mind as he changed his mind at the last minute.

I sort of got four of the comics at the same time, so naturally my impression was that one arc makes an episode, but I too have trouble figuring how the stand-alone issues would fit in, unless there will be several stand-alone issues spread throughout the season and Joss is telling the stories this way simply because he can.

At the end of every four issue arc there will be a standalone, or at least in the foreseeable future. Wikipedia has a list of how it is going to play out, it may change among time but it seems the season will play out the same way it has been.

I don't mean to start a Spike-debate, but I'm waiting for someone to find him and recruit him. Not just because he's one of my favorite characters on the show, but because he was a BtVS villain, etc. long before he was on AtS, so he technically belongs with The Scoobies, whether he's Buffy's boyfriend or not.

Whedon states that Angel and Spike will only be used 'sparingly' so I don't think he will be teaming up with the Scoobies any time soon. His character really belongs to Ats now. Personally, and not trying to start a debate, I'm loving no Spike at the moment- no Spuffy and more core four interaction is just great.

I've been thinking back on Xander's frequent merging on homophobia in the past. He keeps such close contact with Andrew, and doesn't seem to notice Renee flirting with him that much. Do you think Xander will come out in this season? Does anyone know what it meant when Xander said that his mom would say that the action he's been getting would make his remaining eye go blind?

I don't think Xander could ever be called homophobic. He was never homophobic towards Willow and just because he didn't want Larry or anyone else thinking he was gay this doesn't make him homophobic. I wouldn't want people thinking I'm gay if I am not, just in the same way proud gay people wouldn't want to be seen as straight.

[KingofCretins]

The going blind refers to masturbation. It's a biblical consequence for masturbation. That's the only action Xander is getting.

Xander is just a boring old heterosexual. They are pretty clearly setting up his relationship arc as being part of a Buffy and Renee love triangle.

[vampmogs]

The going blind refers to masturbation. It's a biblical punishment for masturbation. That's the only action Xander is getting.[\QUOTE]

I always found it weird that Xander's parents would have told him this, they don't seem the kind of people who would believe in such crap. But then they are the type to say something as embarrassing to Xander as this.

[QUOTE]Xander is just a boring old heterosexual. They are pretty clearly setting up his relationship arc as being part of a Buffy and Renee love triangle.

Possibly a rhombus if it turns out Satsu does indeed love Buffy. I still think the lip gloss is meant to lead us down the wrong way though.

[some spykie ship]

I still think the lip gloss is meant to lead us down the wrong way though.

You think so too? At first I believed fully that it was Satsu kissing Buffy, but then I remembered who we're dealing with. Joss constantly throws curve balls in situations like this.

[vampmogs]

You think so too? At first I believed fully that it was Satsu kissing Buffy, but then I remembered who we're dealing with. Joss constantly throws curve balls in situations like this.

Yeah I have to believe it :) We've seen this sort of thing before. In OMWF we are led to believe that Dawn was the one that brought forth Sweet but she just stole the necklace, it was in fact Xander who did this. The same thing could happen here, I could see a funny joke with Xander secretly putting on Satsu's lip gloss the whole time or something like that.

[Anon]

Yeah I have to believe it :) We've seen this sort of thing before. In OMWF we are led to believe that Dawn was the one that brought forth Sweet but she just stole the necklace, it was in fact Xander who did this. The same thing could happen here, I could see a funny joke with Xander secretly putting on Satsu's lip gloss the whole time or something like that.Sorry, but personally I think even Satsu is a more plausible choice than Xander. If it had been Xander, he wouldn't have started looking for ways round it being a "true love" spell, and he wouldn't have needed Willow prompting everyone to close their eyes. He would have kissed her as soon as Amy told him what was required to wake Buffy. It might be that Satsu shared her lip gloss with other slayers, but Xander is the least probable option. Also in OMWF it was very explicitly stated that Dawn was the one who summoned Sweet. This is more of a hint. It might still be a red herring, but it isn't like the situation in OMWF.

[vampmogs]

Sorry, but personally I think even Satsu is a more plausible choice than Xander. If it had been Xander he wouldn't have started looking for ways round it being a "true love" spell, and he wouldn't have needed Willow prompting everyone to close their eyes. He would have kissed her as soon as Amy told him what was required to wake Buffy. It might be that Satsu shared her lip gloss with other slayers, but Xander is the least probable option. Also in OMWF it was very explicitly stated that Dawn was the one who summoned Sweet. This is more of a hint. It might still be a red herring, but it isn't like the situation in OMWF.

I think he would have most certainly needed Willow telling everyone to close their eyes. I don't think Xander wants anyone to know he has feelings for Buffy and probably doesn't want to admit it to himself. Whedon states that this season everything is about Anya for him, we are yet to discover what this means but I can take a guess. In my opinion Xander feels like he is betraying Anya somehow by having these feelings for Buffy and doesn't want to believe this himself let alone share his feelings with the rest of the group.

Whilst it hasn't been stated it has been pretty strongly implied that Satsu was the one to kiss Buffy. It isn't exactly the same situation but how often is a situation exactly the same, generally both situations are very similair.

[Anon]

I think he would have most certainly needed Willow telling everyone to close their eyes. I don't think Xander wants anyone to know he has feelings for Buffy and probably doesn't want to admit it to himself. Whedon states that this season everything is about Anya for him, we are yet to discover what this means but I can take a guess. In my opinion Xander feels like he is betraying Anya somehow by having these feelings for Buffy and doesn't want to believe this himself let alone share his feelings with the rest of the group.Maybe, but he isn't exactly a man of principle and it has been a long time since her death. If he was in love with Buffy, but feeling guilty over Anya, I would expect to see a failed relationship rather than Xander in denial.

[Moscow Watcher]

My money is on Xander with Joss replaying his old trick from Our Mrs. Reynolds.

[Jenni Lou]

Weren't we having this discussion in another thread? :p There was a lot of back and forth there. But I am still in the Xander camp. To e honest, I will be upset if it is Satsu or another slayer...I mean, Buffy's not gay so let's not introduce conflict through a slayer's unrequited feelings for Buffy. There's got to be better ideas out there. That's just imo.

Plus, I would love for it to be Xander. Anya or no Anya, he's had feelings for Buffy since the day he met her. The true love spell and kiss would be true to his character, I think.

[Anon]

Weren't we having this discussion in another thread? :p There was a lot of back and forth there. But I am still in the Xander camp. To e honest, I will be upset if it is Satsu or another slayer...I mean, Buffy's not gay so let's not introduce conflict through a slayer's unrequited feelings for Buffy. There's got to be better ideas out there. That's just imo.

Plus, I would love for it to be Xander. Anya or no Anya, he's had feelings for Buffy since the day he met her. The true love spell and kiss would be true to his character, I think.I think quite a bit of the betting on Xander is wishful thinking. Vampmog's idea of feeling guilty over Anya was, by a long way, the most plausible theory I've heard as to why he wouldn't just kiss her, and it still fails to reconcile with his past behaviour. Particularly the whole Xander/Cordelia/Willow/Oz affair in season 3. Doesn't mean there won't be Bander later on, but I don't think it would be very likely right now.

[Jenni Lou]

I think quite a bit of the betting on Xander is wishful thinking.

No, it's not. KingofCretins is the Bander shipper, not me. ;)

You wrote earlier:


Sorry, but personally I think even Satsu is a more plausible choice than Xander. If it had been Xander, he wouldn't have started looking for ways round it being a "true love" spell, and he wouldn't have needed Willow prompting everyone to close their eyes. He would have kissed her as soon as Amy told him what was required to wake Buffy.

Well, I happen to disagree with you. I find it very much it Xander's character to act the way he did. I don't think he would outright kiss her if he knew that was all it took. Xander can be a bit of a scatterbrain and gets flustered very easily.

We just see him differently, I guess. And I can agree to disagree on that. :)

[Anon]

No, it's not. KingofCretins is the Bander shipper, not me. ;)I never said you were a Bander shipper, but you stated that you would love for it to be Xander.

Well, I happen to disagree with you. I find it very much it Xander's character to act the way he did. I don't think he would outright kiss her if he knew that was all it took. Xander can be a bit of a scatterbrain and gets flustered very easily.True, but, especially for someone like Xander, what happens when people get flustered is they follow their initial instincts. Xander's reaction was to look for any alternative. It didn't even seem to occur to him to kiss her. This seems a highly odd way to respond if he was in love with her at the time.

[Jenni Lou]

I never said you were a Bander shipper, but you stated that you would love for it to be Xander.

I really would. With Satsu as the alternative, yes.


True, but, especially for someone like Xander, what happens when people get flustered is they follow their initial instincts. Xander's reaction was to look for any alternative. It didn't even seem to occur to him to kiss her. This seems a highly odd way to respond if he was in love with her at the time.

Perhaps. *shrugs* I just don't see it the same way you do is all. :)

I will be happy when we find out who this kisser is though because it's been a hot topic of debate so far! I think one of the other issue threads has a bunch of posts about it ... and I think a chatters thread too...

[some spykie ship]

I have a feeling the kisser was someone who was in the room but we don't know very well yet. Buffy doesn't have to be a lesbian, or even in a slightly lesbian love triangle, for this to happen. The whole situation, including Buffy's almost sex dream about Xander and Amy suggesting that Xander try kissing Buffy, seems more to me like a set-up for an interesting red herring. Remember how Buffy said "cinnamon buns," not "cinnamon" when she woke up? Maybe it's supposed to be a coincidence that Satsu has cinnamon lip gloss, and the person who really kissed Buffy had actually been eating cinnamon buns. If Satsu had something to hide, would she have let Buffy have her lip gloss? Slayers are smarter than that. I don't think it was Xander or Satsu. I think it was someone Joss hasn't introduced into the picture yet, but Willow knew about. But I don't think it was Willow any more than I think it was Xander.

If Joss said that this season was supposed to be about Xander dealing with Anya, then it might be Xander moving on to a relationship with Renee. She flirts with him, and he doesn't dislike it.

[vampmogs]

I think quite a bit of the betting on Xander is wishful thinking. Vampmog's idea of feeling guilty over Anya was, by a long way, the most plausible theory I've heard as to why he wouldn't just kiss her, and it still fails to reconcile with his past behaviour. Particularly the whole Xander/Cordelia/Willow/Oz affair in season 3. Doesn't mean there won't be Bander later on, but I don't think it would be very likely right now.

I think Xander's feelings for both Buffy and Anya were a far greater than they ever were for Cordelia, got to say that the situation is very different now. I mean what a character does in the past doesn't automatically mean they'll do it again in the future. Xander has matured a lot since then, I most certainly cannot see him cheating now.

[Anon]

I think Xander's feelings for both Buffy and Anya were a far greater than they ever were for Cordelia, got to say that the situation is very different now. I mean what a character does in the past doesn't automatically mean they'll do it again in the future. Xander has matured a lot since then, I most certainly cannot see him cheating now.In some ways he has matured. I can't see him shying away from asking a girl out for fear of rejection any more. However, he hasn't become much better at committing himself to things, knowing somethings wrong still doesn't stop him from doing it (His and Anya's wedding, for example) and he is still largely ruled by his emotions. I certainly wouldn't count on him remaining loyal to Anya's memory for a year and a half to the exclusion of all others.

[vampmogs]

In some ways he has matured. I can't see him shying away from asking a girl out for fear of rejection any more. However, he hasn't become much better at committing himself to things, knowing somethings wrong still doesn't stop him from doing it (His and Anya's wedding, for example) and he is still largely ruled by his emotions. I certainly wouldn't count on him remaining loyal to Anya's memory for a year and a half to the exclusion of all others.

I could see it when it is Buffy, his best friend and someone who has rejected him in the past. This isn't some girl in a bar, it is someone who he has a long history with and if he was to make a move, and was rejected he could risk the state of that friendship.

[Anon]

I could see it when it is Buffy, his best friend and someone who has rejected him in the past. This isn't some girl in a bar, it is someone who he has a long history with and if he was to make a move, and was rejected he could risk the state of that friendship.Except for the bit where that didn't happen last time round, and both of them have grown up since then. He might decide to wait for a bit and see if he can improve/try to get a measure of his chances, or he might feel that he doesn't have a chance and not bother, but in either case it wouldn't be likely to hold him back here.

[KingofCretins]

I'd say being in love with someone, really in love with someone, is pretty intimidating if you're used to being hurt, in a dangerous line of work, and talking about a long time friend who did reject you once.

Now, someone mentioned a reason it really *has* to be Xander. He wouldn't let her twist in the wind if he thought his feelings for her even *might* qualify.

Denying his feelings about Buffy is a bit of a reflex at this point for Xander, after doing so for the benefit of Cordy, Riley, and Anya. Talking to Amy, he was trying to find an official way to give Buffy the kiss without it revealing his feelings for her.

[vampmogs]

Except for the bit where that didn't happen last time round, and both of them have grown up since then. He might decide to wait for a bit and see if he can improve/try to get a measure of his chances, or he might feel that he doesn't have a chance and not bother, but in either case it wouldn't be likely to hold him back here.

Yeah but last time around they had known eachother for a couple of months, not seven years. If Buffy didn't feel the same way, it would create a lot of problems because of their history, their past partners- basically they are much better friends now. And I agree with KingofCretins about him having a fear to ask her again after already being rejected the first time; not many people would have the courage to ask a second time.

[Anon]

Yeah but last time around they had known each other for a couple of months, not seven years. If Buffy didn't feel the same way, it would create a lot of problems because of their history, their past partners- basically they are much better friends now. And I agree with KingofCretins about him having a fear to ask her again after already being rejected the first time; not many people would have the courage to ask a second time.Well, maybe. I still think it far more likely to have been one of the slayers.

Now, someone mentioned a reason it really *has* to be Xander. He wouldn't let her twist in the wind if he thought his feelings for her even *might* qualify.If I remember correctly, that was you misinterpreting something I said. Besides, I'm not sure he did ever think that. It looks to me as if it never crossed his mind that they would find someone who could wake her.

One thing I will add is that if Xander's been lying to himself about his feelings for Buffy, he's done an excellent job of deceiving himself.

[KingofCretins]

I'm sorry I have to disagree. Each of Xander's questions to Amy was pretty obviously referring to plausible "outs" by which he could kiss her and it not be a "big deal". Amy herself puts it on the nose and asks him if he's going to kiss her himself. And, when she wakes up, which looks like happens pretty instantly... who's standing closest to her lips?

I've covered the logistics on other threads -- if its not Xander, Georges was cheating on the space.

[vampmogs]

Spose it wasn't Xander, I think it is fairly obvious Bander will become and issue or happen. Joss wouldn't drop the hints, make us think it is Xander and have specific shots like Xander's glare at Amy when she asks if he wants to girl it a whirl. And from what we know in the Buffyverse, more often than not a crush develops into something or there wouldn't be any point to iexploring it in the first place.

[Anon]

I'm sorry I have to disagree. Each of Xander's questions to Amy was pretty obviously referring to plausible "outs" by which he could kiss her and it not be a "big deal".Including the one about if a sister could do it? The term 'wishful thinking' once again springs to mind.

And, when she wakes up, which looks like happens pretty instantly... who's standing closest to her lips?Given this is a comic book, it's kind of hard to tell.

Spose it wasn't Xander, I think it is fairly obvious Bander will become and issue or happen. Joss wouldn't drop the hints, make us think it is Xander and have specific shots like Xander's glare at Amy when she asks if he wants to girl it a whirl. And from what we know in the Buffyverse, more often than not a crush develops into something or there wouldn't be any point to iexploring it in the first place.Quite possibly. There's certainly evidence that Bander could develop, but there's nothing solid suggesting anything between them so far.

[KingofCretins]

Read the panel again.

"So this doesn't have to be someone she's in love with... but not friend-love... and not a sister."

In the context, it doesn't seem like he's asking specifically about Dawn -- why not just say her name? -- he's asking if the qualified party could love her like a friend, and then asking if they could love her like a sister. And, Amy's refusal to give him the 'out' is why Xander answers "Ha! But no, I hate you".

Honestly, if he was thinking about Dawn as a qualified party, wouldn't it be more typical of Xander to just push it in Amy's face? "Great plan, I wonder where we'll find someone who loves Buffy in the castle where her sister and her best friends live?", and then Amy respond off that?

[vampmogs]

Given this is a comic book, it's kind of hard to tell.

I don't think so. Buffy awakes and Xander is right beside her, surprised as he to jumps back. No one but Willow is in view and she isn't jumping back. It almost looks as if Xander kissed her then jumped back as she sprang upwards.

Quite possibly. There's certainly evidence that Bander could develop, but there's nothing solid suggesting anything between them so far.

Nothing solid but it has been implied and there is def some flirting going on. I just don't think anything would be teased or indirectly implied in such a way if there was no point.

[Anon]

Read the panel again.

"So this doesn't have to be someone she's in love with... but not friend-love... and not a sister."

In the context, it doesn't seem like he's asking specifically about Dawn -- why not just say her name? -- he's asking if the qualified party could love her like a friend, and then asking if they could love her like a sister.That might work, if I ignored Amy's replies. It doesn't work so well given the context.

Honestly, if he was thinking about Dawn as a qualified party, wouldn't it be more typical of Xander to just push it in Amy's face? "Great plan, I wonder where we'll find someo