"Into each generation a slayer is born..." Strategizing: The Significance of Slayer

[Nostalgia]

First off, I am warning anyone willing to enter this thread: The first post that I am including is very long, almost as if considered an essay. If you are up to the read, then I fully recommend you try and read what I have written. I am taking a lot of time of my day in order to express this entire debate, along with opening up any new ideas and concepts that one has and feels towards the topic of the importance of "A Slayer." I would really hope that you would enjoy reading this, but I know there are some that may not have the time/patience to swallow this amount of writing all at once. Again, please if you may.. add your opinions and thoughts to this thread. I really feel like it's one of the most important topics that can be talked about on this site, and I would really enjoy having everyone get heated simply because I love what we are talking about here. When one does respond however I still would more interesting responses than 4-5 sentence answers. Responses should be at least a paragraph.. but you are welcome to type anything you feel at any amount of words. Just giving you a heads up of what I'd appreciate. Without a further due...

Read and discuss.

There has been a minor sub debate in the "I Love Kennedy.." thread upon the realms of a Slayer's superiority, and whether or not Slayers should be held on a higher pedastal, have certain priveleges other than the obvious physical and survival advantages. I felt as if it was an interesting enough topic to bring up alone, as it doesn't seem to be getting resolved in any sort of way, nor has it been reaching to other posters other than the few that have been focusing on it. Furthermore, I have seen bits and pieces of this debate in other threads before.. and I feel as if everyone could contribute to it somehow because of how sparcely its been covered.

Before I begin this essay, I'd like to give a short summary of what exactly has been brewing in the "I Love Kennedy.." thread.
Originally there had been a feud over whether or not Kennedy had been a helping hand to contribute something to the Scoobies other than sarcastic comments and rude gestures. A few people had argued that despite her delivery, she still had been stepping up to the plate while others had been cowering in fear. Others responded with the notion that even though she had been useful to a degree and extent, 1. Her comments and naiveness outweighed any type of help that was given. 2. The simple fact that she is a potential who hadn't been there for more than 4 months limits her judgement, no matter if she had given good advice or not (depending on what you had thought of her insight to the situation they had been in). This thread is made specifically for the second route that had been paving.

Rather than just focusing on the season seven arc, I figured I would expand the bigger ideas and concepts that were acting as the blueprints for our opinions debated upon the Kennedy issue.
Before Buffy The Vampire Slayer had even begun, a concept had already been born. Women can be strong, and have the ability to fight back just as any male character in the world could. The show in itself had a goal and this was to express the idea that women have power, and this power needs to be shown through better and more structural ways than The Spice Girls. However, just as any other "Good guys vs the Bad Guys" type of story, within of the realms of the show there was always the notion of a superhero. The Slayer. As the show once demonstrated in its early years, the series would begin with a man reading an excerpt that was revealed as early as episode one.

"In every generation there is a Chosen One. She alone will stand against
the vampires, the demons and the forces of darkness. She is the Slayer."

Thus the show kicked off revolving around a girl that would be considered special. A person who had a calling to be fulfilled. A calling that would involve risking their life by attempting to defend and eventually rid the world of the monsters and demons that our parents once told us that were never real. Not only was The Slayer considered just "different" by purpose, they are also different by a number of physical and mental capabilities. For example, Slayers have the ability to heal quicker than a normal human being would. They also are incredibly stronger as a consequence simply just by their Destiny. While many Slayer train in order to become stronger, slayers have had a head start for pretty much all human physical abilities: Speed, agility, strength, etc. Not only were Slayers given exquisite physical qualities.. but mental as well. Slayers eventually were able to recognize a vampire simply by their presence. Slayers also have the ability to recognize when a vampire is approaching them or others in a well assumed distance. What would be considered an infringement of Spider-Man.. a "Slayer sense" so to speak. As a collection, these qualities have forever put The Slayer at a distance from the regular world. A clear example of this is demonstrated with the character "Faith," one of whom alienated herself simply because she had felt like she could not fit in. Buffy, despite having many friends and support unlike Faith, still understood the loniliness that came with the package. Even though Buffy was surrounded by people that loved her as much as she had loved them, she still had felt as if they could not and do not understand her lifestyle. The pain and loniliness that a slayer sometimes feels. The moments when she wishes she could change things so that life could be more simpler. The moments that a slayer wishes she could someday live a happily married life without the worry of causing a death in the family, let alone leaving their family in destraught if sadly she would have to die at some point (As shown with Nikki Roberts.) Buffy understood that no one could ever understand where she was coming from, or be in her position. Even before Buffy and Faith had lived, The First Slayer had proposed to Buffy the concept of a slayer always being alone, no matter where she was or who she was with. Buffy had not fully understood this until she had been resurrected and continued living.

The rest of this post will contain mostly of just my opinion, rather than an explanation of what the show had been demonstrating. Just warning readers in order for them to understand that I am not stating my opinions as the opinions for everyone. I had made a comment earlier in another thread that "I speak for the audience as well." I was being rude by stating this, and I am sorry for anyone that took offense to this comment. The audience is filled with tons of opinions, all of different kinds. However, I still will shy away from stating what I feel is the majority of the audience's opinion. You all have the freedom to correct me if you feel as though I am wrong on this judgement as well though. My thoughts on the majority are solely based on my opinion as well. This should have been addressed in the First vs PTB thread.
Where does all of this finish a full circle at?
The apprehension that Buffy, Faith, along with every slayer that had ever lived prior to "Chosen" were and are superior to the world and the people that live upon them.
It is at this point that people begin to interpret the concept of a Slayer in many different ways. As for me, I've always gotten my interpretations from what I based what the show had been trying to display to me. Therefore, my opinions about a Slayer being superior to a human is completely centered around my understandings of the purpose of the show.
It's obvious the fact that Slayers have a numerous amount of survival skills that put them at a higher pedastal than the average human. This is demonstrated obviously by Buffy and Faith when it is evident that they succeed others in certain qualities that have already been mentioned. Therefore it is in my opinion that because of this Slayers will and should have the mic in their hand at all times. Meaning that humans and any other sort of creatures simply cannot have the rule of thumb when it comes to strategizing. Slayers automatically are given the gain when it comes to a decision.. simply because well: They're slayers. Slayers are mean't to lead.. are are mean't to offer their insight and plan for a situation because it is their job. No other person's opinion should come before their's. Before anyone else is recognized, a slayer should be the first on the list. The problem here lies. Some people aren't able to accept that Slayers are superior. Nonetheless, everyone should be recognized, and most certainly be heard out before rubbed off.. Yet, the slayer has the choice of which proposed theory they want to choose: Their's or someone else's.

(I would say the case with the Potentials is an exception, however (regarding Faith completely ignoring any of Kennedy's ideas.) Kennedy and the laundry list of potentials did not know what they were getting into and had no one bit of experience. It should also be noted that by my standards "experience" does not include training. I am talking about fighting and understand vampires and their destinies. Therefore, this whole paragraph applies only to those who have the experience to make an opposing theory or even question the Slayer. I may have stated earlier in the other thread that Potentials should have the ability to question. Now thinking hard on this entire paragraph, potentials just do not have the right to question the slayer. This is should be left for the ones who have experience (In Buffy's case: The scoobies and Wood and of course other Slayers). If everyone agrees on a Slayer's decision.. then an inexperienced person's (Potentials) worry ultimately becomes invalid. )

Buffy The Vampire Slayer has never been about a dictatorship. Others with experience are perfectly allowed to question a Slayer's motives and offer their opinions if disagreeing. However, as I've said before, The Slayer is in charge. If we take the concept of the Slayer not having the final say on something, it completely washes away the significance of them being chosen. It is important for some people to understand that there is more to a slayer than a person who has super strengths and abilities. They are unique. Their role in the world has a purpose and is predetermined. They are born with the presets to protect and save the world. Thus if others' opinions succeed over a Slayer's, it tip the scale and completely offsets the balance of things.
How can we even assume that our opinions are more valid than a slayers? That we should be considered over them? If a mother has a debate with her children, a good mother will listen to and try to understand their points of view. However, if she doesn't agree.. What happens? Who automatically decides to this decision? The mother. Motherhood is not a dictatorship, neither is Slayerhood. Both just having the advanced understanding and determination puts them above everyone else. Of course maturity applies to both situations as well. I can understand an exception if the Slayer or mother is am early stage. After years of practice and experience (for a mother a lot less obviously) though.. this is when society must follow by the slayer's rules.

So.. let's say one disagrees with my opinion. By disagreeing with me, I also feel as if you're disagreeing with the concept of the show. The uniqueness of a slayer, the idea of there being only two slayers in the World, and the notion that they set themselves apart from society regardless whether they wanted it or not.

This is even more to an extent, but I'd also add that Slayers, as hard as it is to swallow, have a greater margin for error. The reason for this is quite simple: Everyone will always be given a second chance. How a person uses this second chance to their advantage is determined by.. well what they do. With Slayers.. they are given power, strength, and tons of abilities that no other people have to their extent. Thus, it's almost as if telling a person to repaint the house that they destoyed while the job's already half done.
To apply this to the show, look at Faith.. she's killed numerous people and has made tons of wrong decisions.. yet everyone is willing to accept her as their leader in "Empty Places." I know I wouldn't want a person who killed and tortured people as my leader even if they are good now.. However.. in this case it is a "Slayer."

To conclude, Slayers will always be on a higher scale than everyone else, no matter if it's cruel or if someone wants it a different way.


As Buffy once stated to a demon, "I'm the slayer. And you're on my turf."

[vampmogs]

The notion of wether or not a slayer is better than the people around her is a complicated one. Seemingly the 'gifts' a slayer possess have lasting negative attributes to that slayer on a personal and societal level. I'll try and address some parts of your question the best I can whilst trying to remain brief as I don't have much time.

A slayer is given enhanced abilities that physically place them above most humans and other supernatural beings. Physical superiority can have just as much of a lasting impression on the person as a mental one; much of the slayer's world is physical. As a result a slayer grows a superiority complex, Buffy admits to this in Conversations With Dead People and Faith demonstrates such a complex in Consequences. Now I don't believe this is entirely the slayer's fault, with such enhanced abilities it is evidently going to be extremely hard for any one not to feel superior. I'd go as far as saying that I view a good slayer, a righteous slayer as superior based on these qualities. I would never judge Buffy for openly admitting she feels superior but would Faith because of one major factor; Buffy doesn't accept this. Buffy feels terrible that she feels superior to everyone else, so much so that she has an inferiority complex about her own superiority complex. Buffy doesn't want to feel this way but it is a feeling that inevitably was going to happen. As she states, 'they haven't been what I've been through, they aren't the slayer. I am.' However, Faith completely accepted this superiority complex, she embraced it and loved the fact that she was better or more superior than the people around her. This acceptance of such a feeling is key to establishing wether or not a slayer is right or wrong for feeling this way.

A slayer’s jurisdiction is also a debatable topic. As a slayer she is thrust into this world of vampires and demons, a world where she is told she is chosen to combat this darkness. Buffy was an anomaly as a slayer, she had a support growth that largely established there own footing in the supernatural world, some where vampires or demons always grounded in that mythology and others found their place in that society, for instance Willow with her magics. Seemingly this complicated Buffy’s role more so than other slayers. A slayer was supposed to have one real relationship; with her Watcher. She was supposed to be removed from society and hence things inevitably would be a lot more black and white for other slayers. Buffy has mingled with the very creatures she was supposed to rid the earth of and has dealt with situations other slayers were unlikely to ever face. These situations cause conflict, as for example when she has to determine wether or not Angelus should die, wether or not she should stake Spike or wether or not Anya had to die in Selfless. For any other slayer it would be very simple, demon kills twelve people, demon dies; for Buffy it was anything but. Does this change the slayer’s jurisdiction or does it just make Buffy’s role a hell of a lot harder; I choose the latter. Buffy still is first and foremost the slayer. The slayer’s specific role is to combat “the vampires, the demons and the forces of darkness” regardless of wether they be vampire, demon, human or witch. Buffy is completely right when she states I am the law because she is, wether people like it or not. Our own laws are based on a set of morals that society values, Buffy is the law in the supernatural world and hence her law, her practices, are based entirely on her own moral values. Buffy believes that humans who can be dealt with by human law don’t fall under her jurisdiction, she believes those who can operate supernaturally above the confines of human laws fall under her jurisdiction. We can call her actions hypercritical or unjust but in the end she is the law; she was thrust into that world, a world that is dependant on her to keep that balance.

I want to make draw connections between both themes now- Buffy's superiority as the slayer and her role as the law in the supernatural world. As I said earlier, Buffy doesn't accept the fact that she is superior, she recognises this is how she feels but doesn't support it. However, this acceptance is always going to be there, she can't get out of this world or the choices she has to make; the supernatural world falls under her jurisdiction wether she likes it or not. Buffy is right to forever feel like she shouldn't accept that she is superior but to act according to her duties. She will forever feel judgement by her peers for the level of responsibility that has been handed to her as the slayer, Anya judges her for believing she is better than everyone else. However, Buffy never chose to be like this, she didn’t earn it like Anya states but it was handed to her. Buffy was handed this superiority complex, this duty to be the law and it is ridiculous to judge Buffy based on something she herself stated she had no control over.

I've really just touched upon ideas and they probably aren't as coherent as they should be however I don't really have enough time to go deeper into my ideas now.

[Anon]

Slayers are superior in terms of physical ability and their 'sixth sense', however that does not, by any means, automatically make slayers qualified to be leaders. The power they receive is of a very different nature to those of political and military leaders. If you look at Faith, for example, she makes bad call after bad call and needed all the help she could get just to live past Sanctuary. If Buffy hadn't intervened, then Faith would have cost them the war against the First.

Leadership is a role that Buffy took away from her watcher, who would traditionally be the one in charge. She was able to do this for numerous reasons, the main two being that she was needed to fight the war against evil and that most of the time her decision making was fairly good. However, she was also far from perfect. She screwed up in any number of ways that showed she was still, largely, human. Her instincts may have helped her spot things that others missed, but they didn't automatically make her a qualified leader. Faith could never have taken the leadership role in the way Buffy did. The only reason she managed it in season 7 was that Buffy had set the status quo and Faith simply took her role temporarily.

If you think about Kendra, not only wouldn't she have taken charge of things if she'd been in Buffy's place, she would have been completely incapable of performing the task. Nostalgia, if you look at the personalities of the three slayers that feature in the TV series for any significant length of time (I'm not counting the new ones in Chosen) it's clear that only one of them made a competent leader and basing all your ideas on your individual interpretation of the message behind the show results in a gross oversimplification of the issues.

[Nostalgia]

Personalities and human behavior make a huge difference.. if one experiences a bad past and is easy to succumb to evil simply because she's never had a dad in her life or one person giving her credit, then it will affect in terms of how their leadership skills will work.

However, this is just one case. Both Buffy and Kendra knew how to display leadership skills. It's in my opinion just one more part of the Slayer superiority.

[Anon]

Personalities and human behavior make a huge difference.. if one experiences a bad past and is easy to succumb to evil simply because she's never had a dad in her life or one person giving her credit, then it will affect in terms of how their leadership skills will work.

However, this is just one case. Both Buffy and Kendra knew how to display leadership skills. It's in my opinion just one more part of the Slayer superiority.Sorry, what??? When did Kendra display any sign of leadership skills? She was barely capable of taking the initiative in a situation yet alone giving orders.

Let's try this from another angle. Did the potentials opinion suddenly become worth much more after they were called? Some of the girls shown were as young as twelve. Do you really think that their opinions would suddenly outweigh those of their parents for any given situation? Some situations possibly, depending on how well developed their sixth sense was, but in general? Buffy was an exception who made a good leader in most of the situations she was in because it was her. In other situations, or if it was someone else that wouldn't have been true. If this wasn't the case then the traditions that grew up in the council wouldn't have lasted five minutes.

[KingofCretins]

I don't think the seat of leadership has necessarily anything to do with being the Slayer, or the Watcher. Instead, the best combination of experience and will has always risen to the top of the Buffyverse.

Buffy, and later Faith, weren't the leaders *because* they were Slayers. They were leaders because their experience lent them credibility, and because they believed that they were the leader in a way that projected to others. Call it charisma, call it gravitas, they had it. And, yes, the strength to impose one's will as leader is a factor, but it's not definitive.

Take, for instance, "The Weight of the World". When Buffy went catatonic, Willow became leader. She demonstrated this very directly by forcing Xander and Spike apart, but she was the leader nonetheless. A few years earlier, she became the de facto leader in "Becoming", despite being in a hospital bed. Her experience, and her belief that it was her time, made it happen and made it believable.

Xander ostensibly took that stage in the summer after "Becoming", and we saw instances of that type of natural authority in "Dirty Girls" and elsewhere. And it is rightfully so, for even he is more qualified to lead than is Kennedy. Not only did she never have any combination of experience and strength to qualify herself, she didn't *really* believe she should be in charge or she wouldn't have always been insipidly insisting she get her turn to speak. People would have waited to hear what she had to say. That's just how that leadership thing happens.

[Nostalgia]

Originally Posted by KingofCretins
Take, for instance, "The Weight of the World". When Buffy went catatonic, Willow became leader. She demonstrated this very directly by forcing Xander and Spike apart, but she was the leader nonetheless. A few years earlier, she became the de facto leader in "Becoming", despite being in a hospital bed. Her experience, and her belief that it was her time, made it happen and made it believable

This isn't my point though. In both of these situations a person other than a slayer is stepping up to the plate while a slayer is either not available or under enough pressure that she needed extra help.

Sorry, what??? When did Kendra display any sign of leadership skills? She was barely capable of taking the initiative in a situation yet alone giving orders.

Kendra displayed leadership skills when she had shown Buffy that she was willing to eliminate any type of inhabitions such as friends and love in order to focus on the mission. Kendra knew the main goal and stepped up and did her job the best to her ability.

Someone convince that a slayer is not chosen with the power of leadership skills and authority. You're telling me that in a situation where two ways to take out a solution, one from the slayer the other from a civilian, the Slayer does not have the power to choose which strategy to take?

In my opinion the Slayer has complete power over any type of situation regarding monsters, demons or a threat to their world. It is their job. You can't steal someone's job from them.

[redrevo]

It's obvious the fact that Slayers have a numerous amount of survival skills that put them at a higher pedastal than the average human. This is demonstrated obviously by Buffy and Faith when it is evident that they succeed others in certain qualities that have already been mentioned. Therefore it is in my opinion that because of this Slayers will and should have the mic in their hand at all times. Meaning that humans and any other sort of creatures simply cannot have the rule of thumb when it comes to strategizing. Slayers automatically are given the gain when it comes to a decision.. simply because well: They're slayers. Slayers are mean't to lead.. are are mean't to offer their insight and plan for a situation because it is their job. No other person's opinion should come before their's. Before anyone else is recognized, a slayer should be the first on the list. The problem here lies. Some people aren't able to accept that Slayers are superior. Nonetheless, everyone should be recognized, and most certainly be heard out before rubbed off.. Yet, the slayer has the choice of which proposed theory they want to choose: Their's or someone else's.

And this is where things get murky. What happens when the Slayer starts to do things that are consistently detrimental to the rest of the people involved? What about Empty Places? The Slayer is not infallible. They must be held accountable for their actions, ideas, words just as any other human, otherwise they will begin to become apathetic about the rest of the world. Being determines consciousness - if you don't hold the Slayer accountable, they'll not be accountable; we see this in "Consequences" as Buffy talks to Faith. I wholeheartedly agree with her here. The Slayers are not the law; the law is in the hands of everybody who understands the world. When we talk about the supernatural, Buffy and Faith are not the sole enforcers - Xander, Willow, Anya, Tara, Spike, and Giles help as well, and therefore they are a part of the law. Just because some random people created a prophecy, does not mean humanity has to follow it. We create our own destinies, our own lives; and if that means not holding the Slayer above all criticism and accountability, so be it.

Buffy The Vampire Slayer has never been about a dictatorship. Others with experience are perfectly allowed to question a Slayer's motives and offer their opinions if disagreeing. However, as I've said before, The Slayer is in charge. If we take the concept of the Slayer not having the final say on something, it completely washes away the significance of them being chosen. It is important for some people to understand that there is more to a slayer than a person who has super strengths and abilities. They are unique. Their role in the world has a purpose and is predetermined. They are born with the presets to protect and save the world. Thus if others' opinions succeed over a Slayer's, it tip the scale and completely offsets the balance of things.

Maybe we "wash away the significance" of a Slayer if we take them off their high horse, but the only reason Slayers were intended to be "the law" in the first place is because no one else knew about the vampires, demons, and forces of darkness. Once everyone has the knowledge, then the Slayer's opinion is no more informed than anyone else's. Their only advantage is in strength, which still somewhat retains some sort of significance of their being chosen. Once everyone knows, they have an equal say in the decision process - or, yes, it is a dictatorship.

Re: the "balance of things" - Please, be more specific. How is there some sort of "sacred balance" that must be kept or the world will end? Are humans not really "supposed" to be involved in making decisions that concern them? If the defense of the human world becomes more efficient when more people are involved in the decision making process, and there is a consensus rather than "Slayer has the last say," who even cares about the "balance of things"?

How can we even assume that our opinions are more valid than a slayers? That we should be considered over them? If a mother has a debate with her children, a good mother will listen to and try to understand their points of view. However, if she doesn't agree.. What happens? Who automatically decides to this decision? The mother. Motherhood is not a dictatorship, neither is Slayerhood. Both just having the advanced understanding and determination puts them above everyone else. Of course maturity applies to both situations as well. I can understand an exception if the Slayer or mother is am early stage. After years of practice and experience (for a mother a lot less obviously) though.. this is when society must follow by the slayer's rules.


This is another thing I hate as well. Parents like the one you are outlining assume their interests take all, simply because they're larger, stronger, and older than their children. They don't take time to explain to their children why their ideas are incorrect. They don't listen to their children, even when they do something like refuse to go to school, or something incredibly stupid, like try to run across a busy street. It's just "you can't do that, because I say so." Maybe the child has a reasonable complaint, but the parents don't stop to explain why what the child is saying will hurt them in the long run. They don't ever say, "You have to go to school because otherwise the government will punish our family and force you to go." Maybe the kid doesn't even learn anything at school because it's incredibly boring, or the kid is very bright...but no, it's "My word goes, because I'm bigger."

One could even say the mother metaphor is completely invalid because the potentials and Scoobies are not children. The Scoobies know just as much about the situation as Buffy does, and the potentials have some sort of knowledge about the nature of vampires.
So.. let's say one disagrees with my opinion. By disagreeing with me, I also feel as if you're disagreeing with the concept of the show. The uniqueness of a slayer, the idea of there being only two slayers in the World, and the notion that they set themselves apart from society regardless whether they wanted it or not.

No, I think the concept of the show is to take this "superhero idea", the little blond girl who always gets killed, and the chosen one, the entire horror/action genre and turn it on its head. To defy the rules set down by the same old cliched movies about how the superheroes are always right. The best examples of this are in Season 3, when Buffy tells Faith that they're not the rulers of humanity, in Season 5 when Buffy defies her "destiny," her source and dies for her sister rather than sacrificing her. She is struggling with the whole "alone" concept throughout the season, and realizes that she doesn't have to be alone; she doesn't have to sacrifice the ones she loves. Again, in "Chosen," we take the "great leader/chosen one" concept and completely destroy it with the scythe. Now, the fate of the world is in the hands of the people, people all over the world, not some lone irritated superhero. Ironically, this is why I like Buffy so much in the first six seasons. Most of the time she doesn't shun her friends, her helpers, the ones who save her time and time again. She reconciles her Slayer duties with the world she's trying to protect.

Giles: "Buffy, maintaining a normal social life as a Slayer...is problematic at best."

Buffy: "This is the 90s. The 1990s, in point of fact, and I can do both."

EDIT: Just wanted to make things a bit clearer. If there were an impending apocalypse, I wouldn't mind the Buffy's word going as she's faced quite a lot of apocalypses. This still doesn't make her immune from criticism, though, and she'd still have to explain why her tactics would be best. But in the end, with an apocalypse at hand, I'd accept her word just on the number of apocalypses she's faced, and her track record (undefeated - the world's still here, isn't it?).

[tangent]

Ineresting thread...

O.k first of all are slayers different from the rest of mankind? Yes of course they are They have those extra physical attributes mentioned already (although i think the slayer sense is debatable). Does this automatically give them a right to lead others? No.

Slayers have a gig, a mission in life if you like. That mission is to fight the forces of darkness and it is one that is given to them alone. Why then should these lone warriors be given any super leadership powers? Also the staus quo until a certain very wilful slayer came along was for each slayer to have a watcher, someone to guide her steps to direct her force, in other words to lead her.

The reason buffy get's to have a leadership role in season 7 is directly because of her experience in the role. It is this experience that grant's her the right to lead the potentials not her super strength. It also seems to me that bufy does struggle to come to terms with her leadership role that it sits a little uncomfortably with her.

But given that Buffy because of her seven years experience fighting evil deserved to have a leadership role here soes it then follow that everyone should show blind obedience to her? again I say no. If you think that someone has just made a decision that might end up with you dying that night then they should have the right to speak up. If everyone feels that way then maybe it's time to rethink things a little.


Kendra displayed leadership skills when she had shown Buffy that she was willing to eliminate any type of inhabitions such as friends and love in order to focus on the mission. Kendra knew the main goal and stepped up and did her job the best to her ability.

That's a big sacrifice sure but it's not leadership. Kendra isn't leading buffy anywhere nor is she showing that she has the tactical awareness and inteligence to lead anyone anywhere. In her unswerving obedience of her watcher an inflexibilty to her role she's showing she's a follower not a leader.

To finish, a point from the show that demonstrates why slayers don't have the god given right to lead.

Cordelia: I don't get it. Buffy's the Slayer - shouldn't she have...
Xander: What, a license to kill?
Willow: Well, not for fun. But she's like this Superman. Shouldn't there be different rules for her?
Cordelia: Sure, in a fascist society.
Willow: Right! Why can't we have one of those?

[vampmogs]

This isn't my point though. In both of these situations a person other than a slayer is stepping up to the plate while a slayer is either not available or under enough pressure that she needed extra help.

The point others are trying to make is that being a slayer doesn't automatically make you a good leader they are simply in a position where people automatically turn to them for leadership because of their role. The potentials in season seven automatically turned to Faith for leadership based solely on the fact she was a slayer, even Faith says she doesn't know if she can lead at this point. The potentials never once considered turning to Willow, Giles or Xander for leadership when they would have been far better choices. A slayer may be thrust into the leadership position but that doesn't automatically make them a good leader based solely on the fact of their title.

Kendra displayed leadership skills when she had shown Buffy that she was willing to eliminate any type of inhabitions such as friends and love in order to focus on the mission. Kendra knew the main goal and stepped up and did her job the best to her ability.

How was this in anyway showing leadership skills? That wasn't showing leadership, especially when she made it clear she didn't have any love in her life because her watcher prohibited her from talking to boys. Nor does stepping up to the job and being the slayer automatically make Kendra a good leader, from what we know the only other person she had in her life was her watcher and stated she followed his orders, who exactly was she leading?

Someone convince that a slayer is not chosen with the power of leadership skills and authority. You're telling me that in a situation where two ways to take out a solution, one from the slayer the other from a civilian, the Slayer does not have the power to choose which strategy to take?

A slayer has authority because of her position, in the end I agree with Buffy's statment that she is the law. However, in society a lot of the time we have authoritians who make lawful decisions that aren't just or beneficial to people under their power, because of their position they have this ability to do so but it doesn't automatically mean they are a good leader. When Buffy was chosen as the slayer she wasn't given leadership abilities, that came from something within her all along. All being the slayer did was thrust her into that situation where she was often forced to lead.

In my opinion the Slayer has complete power over any type of situation regarding monsters, demons or a threat to their world. It is their job. You can't steal someone's job from them.

Well actually you can steal someone's job from them, many people get fired for others who are more qualified to do their job. Whilst I don't support the Scoobies for this they did however kick Buffy out of her leadership position in Empty Places because they didn't want her to lead them.

Someone brought up a very good point before, you have said it yourself in another thread that Kennedy lacked any leadership qualities. When she was made a slayer in Chosen did she suddenly have the ability to lead people? You said it yourself that Kennedy needed to learn and grow before she could lead, so regardless of wether Kennedy was slayer or not she still needed to learn and grow before she could be a good leader; regardless of the fact she was now a slayer.

[Anon]

Kendra displayed leadership skills when she had shown Buffy that she was willing to eliminate any type of inhabitions such as friends and love in order to focus on the mission. Kendra knew the main goal and stepped up and did her job the best to her ability.That could be an attempt at leadership by example, but it doesn't show that she can perform any of the roles required of a leader.

Someone convince that a slayer is not chosen with the power of leadership skills and authority. You're telling me that in a situation where two ways to take out a solution, one from the slayer the other from a civilian, the Slayer does not have the power to choose which strategy to take?

In my opinion the Slayer has complete power over any type of situation regarding monsters, demons or a threat to their world. It is their job. You can't steal someone's job from them.The ability to decide what you do and the ability to convince others to support you or follow you are two different things.

Let's be clear on this. Leadership requires the ability to make decisions and convince others to follow them. Ideally you would also be able to get others to support those decisions. If you can't do either of the first two, you aren't a leader.

Concerning Kennedy, the potentials, for whatever reason, respected her enough to follow her instructions during training sessions, and in End of Days, with Faith unconscious Kennedy is able to take charge and organise them.

[KingofCretins]

Concerning Kennedy, the potentials, for whatever reason, respected her enough to follow her instructions during training sessions, and in End of Days, with Faith unconscious Kennedy is able to take charge and organise them.

I didn't get the impression that there was even one Potential in "Get It Done" who was following Kennedy's instruction other than that they must have been told to do so off-screen by Buffy or a Scooby. Disappointing Kennedy sure didn't do anything to motivate Chloe, just avoiding a completely loathesome browbeating.

Incidentally, it is pretty unlikely that Kennedy was qualified to train a large group in any martial form whatsoever. She was 19 years old. How many masters are 19 years old?

Kennedy has the instinct to lead, I'll give her that. Although her instinct was to try to engage the Turok-han instead of run, which was, well, dumb. And, really, it comes back to the question of whether anybody listens to Kennedy because they think Kennedy is qualified to lead them, or because Kennedy has created the illusion of sanction by the people who *are* qualified to lead them?

[Anon]

I didn't get the impression that there was even one Potential in "Get It Done" who was following Kennedy's instruction other than that they must have been told to do so off-screen by Buffy or a Scooby. Disappointing Kennedy sure didn't do anything to motivate Chloe, just avoiding a completely loathesome browbeating. Kennedy has the instinct to lead, I'll give her that. Although her instinct was to try to engage the Turok-han instead of run, which was, well, dumb. And, really, it comes back to the question of whether anybody listens to Kennedy because they think Kennedy is qualified to lead them, or because Kennedy has created the illusion of sanction by the people who *are* qualified to lead them?The answer to that question, along with your opinion of events in Get It Done, is down to personal bias rather than anything in the show. Even you admitted that she does have some potential for leadership, even if you don't think its much.

Besides, Faith didn't have any real talent for leadership and she still got put in charge. She got appointed on the basis that she was the Slayer, which we agree is really not a sound basis for choosing a leader.

[ThePoet's<3]

Leadership does have certain amount of equal experience vs. confidence in one's experience - the *I know what I'm talking about* factor.

I know many people who have years and years of experience but simply do not have the confidence in their abilities to step forward in a leadership role - which is fine - because there eventually will be people who are able to step into this role.

And sometimes all it takes is someone willing to place their confidence in that person's experiences for them to assume the role.

Faith has the experience but she doesn't seem to have the confidence in her experiences - she's not sure she knows what she's talking about at times. However, when she stepped up in Angel she was confident in front of Angelus to a sort. And I do think it made a difference that Faith's Watcher was not as involved in her life as Buffy and Kendra's had been. She had no one to encourage or discourage her successes or mistakes and so no one to *shape* her confidence.

Kennedy on the other hand seems to have the *I know* factor up front but no experience to put behind it. That's good for rallying the troops but you probably won't find them following her into battle until someone else places confidence in her experiences.

There are people who naturally display abilities for leadership. Using this confidence if they are shaped correctly - encouragment/discouragement they can earn the experience it takes to make them great leaders.

But there are also people who quietly come into leadership. They have performed time after time with good results and learned from their mistakes. It may be that someone else has to recognize the leadership qualities they have.

The problem we now face is that we have a whole slue of Slayers! Not just the two. Everyone of them with the abilities to Slay Vampires, Demons, and Fight Evil. Someone has to shape and mold them.

It raises a question to me - whether some of the Slayers died because they were not such great leaders? Just thinking...

[KingofCretins]

Faith wasn't in charge because she was a Slayer. Why would that make Giles defer to her? Or Willow, who's already beaten down a Slayer? Or Xander, who she tried to kill? She was in charge because she was willing to be in charge and she had credibility. Everyone there knew she was a fighter, knew she'd been through more serious crap than most of the rest (especially if we assume Willow briefed them on what happened in L.A.). The Potentials deferred to her precisely because she had reached out to them already.

In fact, there was only one person who didn't defer to Faith out of respect -- Kennedy, who, again, thought she should be in charge.

Being the Slayer is not the "why" of Buffy or Faith ever being in charge. Their power is not their command. Buffy was still "in charge" in "Earshot", she was still essentially in charge in "Killed By Death" (or Xander, when needed).

To go with Poet's example, Buffy and Faith, as well as Giles, Xander, Willow, and Spike, are all the authentic leaders at the house in Season 7 because they can all say "I know because I've seen it and done it". Kennedy can only say "I know because I heard it from others".

There is nothing in the episode at all that explains *why* or *how* Kennedy got put in charge of that horribly inefficient training session. But there's a LOT more subtextual basis to think it's because some of the real authority in the house said so and not because Kennedy just inspired them to do it. The only thing Kennedy was good at in that scene was calling another Potential a maggot (gleefully!) and questioning Buffy on who she has as a guest in HER house.

[kana]

Sorry if I’m stepping on anyone’s point but here’s some of my views.

Ok my thoughts on this is that the Slayers origin comes from subjugation, this means that anything regarding the meaning of being a Slayer is self defined. It’s up the Slayer to regard it as their job, or indeed as part of their identity., this includes self worth, leadership etc.

Also although it’s allowed ;), I wouldn’t necessarily use the mission statement of the show (of course there is more than one of those) to argue whether I believe something is right or wrong. While I wouldn’t agree with autocracy in it’s extreme measure but I wouldn’t use the “Whedon thinks it so it must be right” line.

Like I said before, the significance of being chosen doesn’t give the Slayer the right of having the final say as the origin of this power has roots in patriarchal dominance which undermines the idea of the empowerment of the Slayer which I understood to really start with Buffy anyway. Buffy’s leadership comes from her as a person not as a slayer in my view.

Kendra seemed more like a product of the establishment than anything else. Her reply to Buffy’s reasoning wasn’t her own reasoning but it was what was taught by the establishment, procedure. Kendra if you pardon the pun is still thinking like a tool rather than a leader.

All this said, I believe although Buffy has shown strength and impressive leadership (which come from her as person in the role rather than her preternatural abilities) she has had her share of mistakes and luck has sometimes been on her side. The interesting thing about leadership is that sometimes time doesn’t let you become ready. Buffy received her leadership role relatively early and with little experience (compared others in such roles of leadership in the world) and she was a teenage girl with little life experience with arguably more responsibility than anyone in the world. Was Buffy ready? I’m not sure but she stepped up. Did Buffy excel? I think so. Was Buffy lucky at times? I believe so. This is one of the reasons I wasn’t too hard on Faith in Season 4/7. (4 refers to Angel) because she had elements of self doubt but she showed one quality all leaders should show in my opinion: a willingness to lead at the very least.

My memory of Kennedy is always sketchy as I never seem to remember or care about her existence (it’s not personal to her I just feel that way, I don’t dislike her). Could Kennedy lead? From what I remember she at least had the willingness. Would she have been rash and made mistakes? I think so but then so have Buffy and Angel and I don’t think either of them are bad leaders. Does she have the potential to lead? I can’t remember that much but perhaps the question is that is she the most qualified to lead? Based upon her lack of experience I’d agree with those who say no, but that doesn’t mean she’ll never make a good a leader if the circumstances present themselves.

[KingofCretins]

My memory of Kennedy is always sketchy as I never seem to remember or care about her existence (it’s not personal to her I just feel that way, I don’t dislike her). Could Kennedy lead? From what I remember she at least had the willingness. Would she have been rash and made mistakes? I think so but then so have Buffy and Angel and I don’t think either of them are bad leaders. Does she have the potential to lead? I can’t remember that much but perhaps the question is that is she the most qualified to lead? Based upon her lack of experience I’d agree with those who say no, but that doesn’t mean she’ll never make a good a leader if the circumstances present themselves.

Kennedy won't ever be a good leader if she has never learned how to follow. I don't think she even started to "get it" until Buffy showed up to save them in "End of Days".

From what we know now, she apparently was not put in charge of one of the Slayer teams. We don't have a lot of specifics about that, but considering that only a total of eight Slayers made it out of Sunnydale, including Buffy and Faith, it's probably not an accident that she doesn't appear to be in a leadership role.

[vampmogs]

Concerning Kennedy, the potentials, for whatever reason, respected her enough to follow her instructions during training sessions, and in End of Days, with Faith unconscious Kennedy is able to take charge and organise them.

I wouldn't automatically assume that the others respected her enough to follow her instructions, as KoC points out Kennedy would have evidently been put in that position by someone in charge of her. Kennedy was the only potential who appeared to believe she should be in charge and hence yelling out orders and having them followed doesn't mean that the other potentials respected her, the simply did things they chose to do.

Faith wasn't in charge because she was a Slayer. Why would that make Giles defer to her? Or Willow, who's already beaten down a Slayer? Or Xander, who she tried to kill? She was in charge because she was willing to be in charge and she had credibility. Everyone there knew she was a fighter, knew she'd been through more serious crap than most of the rest (especially if we assume Willow briefed them on what happened in L.A.). The Potentials deferred to her precisely because she had reached out to them already.

Well the group turned to Faith to lead them because she was a slayer too, seemingly Faith was thrust in the leadership position based on her title, regardless of wether she was actually capable of leading or not. No one suggested Willow, Xander or Giles leading them because they weren't a slayer.

Being the Slayer is not the "why" of Buffy or Faith ever being in charge. Their power is not their command. Buffy was still "in charge" in "Earshot", she was still essentially in charge in "Killed By Death" (or Xander, when needed).

I think that Buffy and Faith are placed in a leadership position because of their title, holding that position and making people repsect and follow you is something that requires more than being the slayer though. The majority of the time Buffy's peers turned to her based on the fact she was a slayer, but it was her own personal skills of leadership that kept them turning to her.

To go with Poet's example, Buffy and Faith, as well as Giles, Xander, Willow, and Spike, are all the authentic leaders at the house in Season 7 because they can all say "I know because I've seen it and done it". Kennedy can only say "I know because I heard it from others".

Very true. Which is why Nostalgia's idea doesn't really make a great deal of sense, Kennedy was made a slayer but when the powers handed out super strength and speed to her they didn't hand her that experience. Being the slayer doesn't give you leadership abiltities, it just puts you in a situation where people turn to you to lead.

[Anon]

Faith has the experience but she doesn't seem to have the confidence in her experiences - she's not sure she knows what she's talking about at times. However, when she stepped up in Angel she was confident in front of Angelus to a sort. And I do think it made a difference that Faith's Watcher was not as involved in her life as Buffy and Kendra's had been. She had no one to encourage or discourage her successes or mistakes and so no one to *shape* her confidence. Well why would she? She had experience, but it didn't help her. She was still a hopelessly incompetent leader both in terms of leading people and making decisions. Was I really the only one who spotted the trap Faith walked into from a mile away?

Faith wasn't in charge because she was a Slayer. Why would that make Giles defer to her? Or Willow, who's already beaten down a Slayer? Or Xander, who she tried to kill? She was in charge because she was willing to be in charge and she had credibility. Everyone there knew she was a fighter, knew she'd been through more serious crap than most of the rest (especially if we assume Willow briefed them on what happened in L.A.). The Potentials deferred to her precisely because she had reached out to them already.Buffy had created a system where by the Slayer was in charge. That is the only reason Faith was even considered for a leadership role, and it is certainly the only reason she got the job.

In fact, there was only one person who didn't defer to Faith out of respect -- Kennedy, who, again, thought she should be in charge.She challenged the status quo. Smart girl. The entire system that worked under Buffy worked because it was under Buffy. With her gone, it should have changed, but it was so deeply entrenched that no one else did anything.

There is nothing in the episode at all that explains *why* or *how* Kennedy got put in charge of that horribly inefficient training session. But there's a LOT more subtextual basis to think it's because some of the real authority in the house said so and not because Kennedy just inspired them to do it. The only thing Kennedy was good at in that scene was calling another Potential a maggot (gleefully!) and questioning Buffy on who she has as a guest in HER house.I can find plenty of reasons of my own for assuming its more than that. Most of it is you reading in what you want to see. Besides, what ever subtext there was for the trianing session, there is none for 'End Of Days'. One thing I notice about Kennedy bashers is that time after time they insist on reading thing she says and does in the worst possible way. Almost as if many of them had decided to hate her first and look for reasons second.

[vampmogs]

Buffy had created a system where by the Slayer was in charge. That is the only reason Faith was even considered for a leadership role, and it is certainly the only reason she got the job.

I agree. It is actually stated in Empty Places that Faith should have a turn in charge based on the fact that she is a slayer. The fact none of the Scoobies saw the bad in this is beyond me, but then I disagree with them kicking Buffy out as well. :confused2:

She challenged the status quo. Smart girl. The entire system that worked under Buffy worked because it was under Buffy. With her gone, it should have changed, but it was so deeply entrenched that no one else did anything.

Well no not really. I think really challenging the status quo would be offering for Willow, Xander or Giles to be put in charge. Kennedy believed she deserved to be in charge because she was a Potential slayer which really isn't far off from an actual slayer. Thinking outside of the box would be putting someone in charge based on their experience and ability to lead, not by their title.

No. There is very little 'subtext' to speak of. Most of it is you reading in what you want to see. One thing I notice about Kennedy bashers is that time after time they insist on reading thing she says and does in the worst possible way. Almost as if many of them had decided to hate her first and look for reasons second.

There is a reason there are so many Kennedy bashers and that is because the things she does and says are stupid ;)

I think it is safe to assume Kennedy was given that responsibility by someone, after all she states she loves "this job" and Buffy smiles weakly at her and nods. Since when did Kennedy have this kind of leadership position on her own when it was made clear Buffy was in charge? One could safely assume she was delegated this power.

[Anon]

Well no not really. I think really challenging the status quo would be offering for Willow, Xander or Giles to be put in charge. Kennedy believed she deserved to be in charge because she was a Potential slayer which really isn't far off from an actual slayer. Thinking outside of the box would be putting someone in charge based on their experience and ability to lead, not by their title.Well, maybe. She certainly seemed to think that power should have been shared, or that others should have had influence (NOTE: there is little indication that she wanted it all for herself).

There is a reason there are so many Kennedy bashers and that is because the things she does and says are stupid ;)Some of them are. Others take a bit of effort to make them into something negative and some require an actual determination to see them in a negative way.

I think it is safe to assume Kennedy was given that responsibility by someone, after all she states she loves "this job" and Buffy smiles weakly at her and nods. Since when did Kennedy have this kind of leadership position on her own when it was made clear Buffy was in charge? One could safely assume she was delegated this power.You still haven't explained End of Days. Besides, think about a bad teacher in school. Either people don't listen to them or they might have complained. I saw no evidence of either.

[vampmogs]

Well, maybe. She certainly seemed to think that power should have been shared, or that others should have had influence (NOTE: there is little indication that she wanted it all for herself).

I never saw evidence of Kennedy thinking power should be shared, she believes she is in charge of the Potentials, she didn't like it that Faith was shutting HER down. Kennedy often seemed to try and put herself on a higher pedestal than the other potentials.

Some of them are. Others take a bit of effort to make them into something negative and some require an actual determination to see them in a negative way.

I very rarely see anything as positive that comes out of Kennedy's mouth. Even when there is supposed to be a sweet moment between her and Willow I don't like the things she says, girl bugs me.

You still haven't explained End of Days. Besides, think about a bad teacher in school. Either people don't listen to them or they might have complained. I saw no evidence of either.

I tried to sum up Kennedy's role to the other potentials in my last post, I just didn't make specific reference to End of Days. Basically, the girls were in a situation where there were very little choices that could have been made. Kennedy physically yelling out things that were probable to happen anyway doesn't mean the Potentials were led by her. Basically it is Kennedy being Kennedy, barking out orders for the hell of it regardless of wether the Potentials would have done the exact same thing on their own.

[Anon]

I never saw evidence of Kennedy thinking power should be shared, she believes she is in charge of the Potentials, she didn't like it that Faith was shutting HER down. Kennedy often seemed to try and put herself on a higher pedestal than the other potentials.She never said that she wanted to make all the decisions. She was just trying to get Faith to listen to her. There are plenty of ways of reading it, and you chose the worst one possible.

I very rarely see anything as positive that comes out of Kennedy's mouth. Even when there is supposed to be a sweet moment between her and Willow I don't like the things she saysThis supports my theory that most of what you say on this subject is self-rationalisation rather than genuine reasons why you hate Kennedy. No matter the situation, you find it difficult to look at anything she does in an even remotely positive manner.

I tried to sum up Kennedy's role to the other potentials in my last post, I just didn't make specific reference to End of Days. Basically, the girls were in a situation where there were very little choices that could have been made. Kennedy physically yelling out things that were probable to happen anyway doesn't mean the Potentials were led by her. Basically it is Kennedy being Kennedy, barking out orders for the hell of it regardless of wether the Potentials would have done the exact same thing on their own.I can think of at least one time when that almost certainly isn't the case.

[Ravynnia]

The concept of a Slayer is re-invented in the course of the show, not just once, but at least three times: first, when Buffy quits the Council. Quentin Travers asserts that the Council is fighting a war, and the Slayer is the Council's instrument. Buffy judges the Council wanting & refuses to be anyone's vessel, handmaid, or subordinate. When they try to reassert control, she recognizes that their resources are really hers to command, and they can only co-operate with her ultimatums. And she makes it clear that her power is not solitary, but linked to the family she's gathered around her.

For the Council, the Slayer is a sacrificial queen always replaced by the next; but the quality of the sacrifice is meaningless to them. Buffy gives the sacrificial nature of the Slayer significance when she leaps, not just to save the world, but to save it in place of her sister, for her sister.

When Buffy returns, this signficance itself is made insignificant. If you make a sort of universal mother-sister blood sacrifice of yourself, and nonetheless are restored to die yet another death, what character, quality, significance remains? "What if I kill you?" "Trust me, it won't make a difference." "Mm- that's gloomy." "That's life."

The actual abolition of the Council, the murder of Slayers-in-training and their Watchers, gives Buffy the burden of trying to step into the Council's role. But this negates her own development entirely. She can't be Quentin Travers, take on the mantle of a general fighting a war. Buffy's ties are always intimate, despite the amount of isolation & loneliness her abilities & task require of her. Being besieged & surrounded with girls who only have the preliminary capacities for being a Slayer prevents her from developing the ties that would strengthen her & strengthen all of them.

Buffy does not redefine Slayer as make the status the subverting force that the Council existed to prevent. Buffy becomes a catalyst and a polarizing power.

The Slayer is the permament revolution. It isn't a Slayer's task to be "positive."

[vampmogs]

She never said that she wanted to make all the decisions. She was just trying to get Faith to listen to her. There are plenty of ways of reading it, and you chose the worst one possible.

And you chose the most positive one, why is your opinion any greater than ours because you don't hate her character? Surely everyone's opinion is valid wether they like, hate or couldn't care about Kennedy at all. Disliking her character doesn't mean our opinion isn't as valid as yours.

This supports my theory that most of what you say on this subject is self-rationalisation rather than genuine reasons why you hate Kennedy. No matter the situation, you find it difficult to look at anything she does in an even remotely positive manner.

I'm not posting to show my genuine reasons for why I hate Kennedy, that isn't the point of this thread but if you want to talk about that start a new one because I'd be perfectly happy listing all the reasons why I hate her. Furthermore, why should I look at anything she does in a positive manner if I don't believe this to be the case? Why should I try hard to look for something I don't see just because you do? It is like me telling you your opinion is wrong because you find it difficult to look at everything she does in a completely negative manner. I don’t do this because I am focusing in your arguments and not only your personal preferences.

I can think of at least one time when that almost certainly isn't the case.

You willing to share that since in your previous post you called me on not directly giving my opinion on End of Days?

[KingofCretins]

She never said that she wanted to make all the decisions. She was just trying to get Faith to listen to her. There are plenty of ways of reading it, and you chose the worst one possible.

The one most consistent with Kennedy's behavior the rest of the time. Kennedy's agenda was pretty obvious in "Touched". Consider her line when they start contemplating how to reorganize without Buffy:

KENNEDY
I just wonder if those of us who have been here longer should have more of a say.

Which is, really, hysterical -- she was there at most a week ahead of several of the other Potentials and has no meaningful experience whatsoever. The people "who had been (there) longer" already had more of a say. Their names are Giles, Willow, Xander, Spike, Dawn, Buffy...

When Faith steps up to suggest they just go to bed, Kennedy frames that as a waste of time. And, the moment you refer to where Kennedy was just wanting to be heard? Was her trying to insist that they *not* follow Faith's idea of planning out based on who their enemies were, Kennedy wanted to charge blindly to, presumably, either the high school or the vineyard (particularly nuts, since that was Buffy's plan that got her kicked out of HER house). It's not that Kennedy wasn't heard, it's just that there was nothing that she could have finished that sentence with that wasn't a bad idea. There's a similar scene in "Gone in 60 Seconds" where Kip wants Memphis to listen to his "shadow games" idea and is upset he's interrupted. The fact was, Memphis heard the idea and the idea was terrible.

It appears that it's been shown that dialogue strongly suggests that Kennedy's authority in "Get It Done" *was* delegated, so "End of Days" becomes the alamo for arguing in Kennedy's defense as a leader.

Let's review that.

Kennedy gives only a handful of commands in that scene: to find Faith, to run, to get the wounded first, and then to fight the Turok-han. Nobody else is even making declarative statements in the scene, and the first three commands were pretty much things everybody standing there was already inclined to do. The fourth command was... deeply stupid.

[vampmogs]

Which is, really, hysterical -- she was there at most a week ahead of several of the other Potentials and has no meaningful experience whatsoever. The people "who had been (there) longer" already had more of a say. Their names are Giles, Willow, Xander, Spike, Dawn, Buffy...

:roll: I always want to slap some sense into her when she says this, she is making a fool of herself when she states such a thing.

When Faith steps up to suggest they just go to bed, Kennedy frames that as a waste of time. And, the moment you refer to where Kennedy was just wanting to be heard? Was her trying to insist that they *not* follow Faith's idea of planning out based on who their enemies were, Kennedy wanted to charge blindly to, presumably, either the high school or the vineyard (particularly nuts, since that was Buffy's plan that got her kicked out of HER house). It's not that Kennedy wasn't heard, it's just that there was nothing that she could have finished that sentence with that wasn't a bad idea. There's a similar scene in "Gone in 60 Seconds" where Kip wants Memphis to listen to his "shadow games" idea and is upset he's interrupted. The fact was, Memphis heard the idea and the idea was terrible.

Kennedy's equally as nuts when she decides the best plan was to scream "Lets go!" and charge at Caleb; the very guy who just knocked a slayer out with one punch. A good leader would have told them to run after they realised it was a trap; the exact thing Buffy tells them to do as soon as she regains consciousness.

Kennedy gives only a handful of commands in that scene: to find Faith, to run, to get the wounded first, and then to fight the Turok-han. Nobody else is even making declarative statements in the scene, and the first three commands were pretty much things everybody standing there was already inclined to do. The fourth command was... deeply stupid.

That is the point I'm trying to make, everything Kennedy stated for them to do would be the first things anyone would immediately think to do. Barking out orders over people who one could assume would have done the exact same thing anyway doesn't make Kennedy a leader, if anything it just proves the point that she liked being heard for the sake of being heard.

I also would like to point out that being boss and a self proclaimed brat isn't the same as being a leader, are we sure any of these traits aren't of a brat being a brat and not someone making terrible attempts at leading?

[Anon]

And you chose the most positive one, why is your opinion any greater than ours because you don't hate her character? Surely everyone's opinion is valid wether they like, hate or couldn't care about Kennedy at all. Disliking her character doesn't mean our opinion isn't as valid as yours.True. Just bear in mind that a strong bias can affect the integrity of opinions based on it. I'll admit I've been acting with a bias myself, very deliberately trying to see the best in Kennedy where I can, but I'm not sure of the extent to which I've let it affect my judgement.

I'm not posting to show my genuine reasons for why I hate Kennedy, that isn't the point of this thread but if you want to talk about that start a new one because I'd be perfectly happy listing all the reasons why I hate her. Furthermore, why should I look at anything she does in a positive manner if I don't believe this to be the case? Why should I try hard to look for something I don't see just because you do? It is like me telling you your opinion is wrong because you find it difficult to look at everything she does in a completely negative manner. I don’t do this because I am focusing in your arguments and not only your personal preferences.Sorry.

You willing to share that since in your previous post you called me on not directly giving my opinion on End of Days?After the explosion, they were trying to escape through the tunnels. They came up against a blockage and it looked like the most of them were either going to give up or panic, until Kennedy told them to climb over it. It is possible that one of the others might have spotted this, but I think it's more likely that they would very shortly have been killed by the Turok-Han that was chasing them.

Kennedy gives only a handful of commands in that scene: to find Faith, to run, to get the wounded first, and then to fight the Turok-han. Nobody else is even making declarative statements in the scene, and the first three commands were pretty much things everybody standing there was already inclined to do. The fourth command was... deeply stupid.Caridad's first instinct was not to find Faith. Vi actually asked Kennedy what they should do in the second instance. For the third one see above. By the time Kennedy gave the fourth command, there were no good or even useful options available.

Which is, really, hysterical -- she was there at most a week ahead of several of the other Potentials and has no meaningful experience whatsoever. The people "who had been (there) longer" already had more of a say. Their names are Giles, Willow, Xander, Spike, Dawn, Buffy...That is entirely dependant on how you interpret her statement. If applied only to the potentials, there's no problem. Better yet, apply it literally to everyone in the room in which case the Scooby gang, not Faith, get to call the shots. Suddenly it becomes a very good idea.

[vampmogs]

True. Just bear in mind that a strong bias can affect the integrity of opinions based on it. I'll admit I've been acting with a bias myself, very deliberately trying to see the best in Kennedy where I can, but I'm not sure of the extent to which I've let it affect my judgement.

I agree strong bias can effect the judgement of someone. However, speaking entirely for myself here, the reason I hate Kennedy is for her attitude towards leadership, believing she deserves the role when IMO she clearly shows she does not. Everything that I hate about her relates to this topic, this topic is why I hate her character. I don't hate her because she replaced Tara, although I don't like the relationship, it is about her attitude.

Sorry.

Apology accepted.

After the explosion, they were trying to escape through the tunnels. They came up against a blockage and it looked like the most of them were either going to give up or panic, until Kennedy told them to climb over it. It is possible that one of the others might have spotted this, but I think it's more likely that they would very shortly have been killed by the Turok-Han that was chasing them.

Naturally wouldn't the girls at least try and climb over it on their own unless they are dumber than I thought.

That is entirely dependant on how you interpret her statement. If applied only to the potentials, there's no problem. Better yet, apply it literally to everyone in the room in which case the Scooby gang, not Faith, get to call the shots. Suddenly it becomes a very good idea.

Kennedy never really referred to herself as a potential, it seemed evident to me she tried to be above the other potentials. When she said this I took her as literally meaning out of everyone in the room which your right does make sense, only Kennedy was stupid enough to believe this somehow included her.

[Anon]

Naturally wouldn't the girls at least try and climb over it on their own unless they are dumber than I thought.Intelligence isn't the main trait displayed by kids when their scared out of their wits. I got the impression that most of them thought that was pretty much the end of the line.

Kennedy never really referred to herself as a potential, it seemed evident to me she tried to be above the other potentials. When she said this I took her as literally meaning out of everyone in the room which your right does make sense, only Kennedy was stupid enough to believe this somehow included her.That would depend on how the system was implemented. It doesn't have to include Kennedy, and there's no particular reason why it should, but it doesn't necessarily cut her out of the picture entirely.

As for Kennedy's attitude towards leadership, well she clearly wants a say in how things are run, but on the other hand, once she has been made to accept a decision she will go along with it. She won't refuse to do something simply because she doesn't like it and nor will she only make a half-hearted effort.

[vampmogs]

Intelligence isn't the main trait displayed by kids when their scared out of their wits. I got the impression that most of them thought that was pretty much the end of the line.

But seeing a wall whilst running from something, doesn't that provoke a natural instinct or urge to try and climb over said wall?

That would depend on how the system was implemented. It doesn't have to include Kennedy, and there's no particular reason why it should, but it doesn't necessarily cut her out of the picture entirely.

She stated the people who have been there longer, there many people who had more experience than her and had been there longer so I think she should be cut out of the picture entirely.

As for Kennedy's attitude towards leadership, well she clearly wants a say in how things are run, but on the other hand, once she has been made to accept a decision she will go along with it. She won't refuse to do something simply because she doesn't like it and nor will she only make a half-hearted effort.

Exactly, she is a good follower but isn't a good leader.

[Anon]

But seeing a wall whilst running from something, doesn't that provoke a natural instinct or urge to try and climb over said wall?If you look at the way they reacted, the answer is apparantly not.

She stated the people who have been there longer, there many people who had more experience than her and had been there longer so I think she should be cut out of the picture entirely.You think Kennedy was stupid to make that statement because you thought it would cut her out of the picture, but this doesn't have to be true. Then again the people who had been there longest were better qualified than Kennedy so you think it should be true. Is there something I've missed here or does this simply feed on itself?

[vampmogs]

If you look at the way they reacted, the answer is apparantly not.

I don't think we were given enough time to see what the girls would have done without Kennedy barking out orders.

You think Kennedy was stupid to make that statement because you thought it would cut her out of the picture, but this doesn't have to be true. Then again the people who had been there longest were better qualified than Kennedy so you think it should be true. Is there something I've missed here or does this simply feed on itself?

I believe Kennedy's intentions when suggesting this was to have her included in some form of leadership role. By being here longer it was fairly evident she was referring to herself and how long she had been in the house. Therefore, I believe she was stupid for saying this. If someone like Xander had said this it wouldn't be stupid because he'd have been referring to himself or one of the other Scoobies.

[Anon]

I don't think we were given enough time to see what the girls would have done without Kennedy barking out orders.No, but we can see what their initial reaction was and it's not like they had lots of time.

I believe Kennedy's intentions when suggesting this was to have her included in some form of leadership role. By being here longer it was fairly evident she was referring to herself and how long she had been in the house. Therefore, I believe she was stupid for saying this. If someone like Xander had said this it wouldn't be stupid because he'd have been referring to himself or one of the other Scoobies.The reasoning stated there is not sufficient to draw the conclusion. You would also need to assume that she wouldn't get any influence under the system she suggested. This isn't a safe assumption to make.

[vampmogs]

No, but we can see what their initial reaction was and it's not like they had lots of time.

I think it is safe to assume that the girls would have at least tried to jump over the wall and wouldn't have fallen to the floor and waited for the Turok Han to come. Logic would imply this would be the case. This is kind of my point, yelling out orders whilst people would do that exact thing anyway doesn't make a great leader.

The reasoning stated there is not sufficient to draw the conclusion. You would also need to assume that she wouldn't get any influence under the system she suggested. This isn't a safe assumption to make.

Why not? Kennedy has always been about her getting a chance to lead, she loved the job of leading the potentials in those chants and in this very scene in question has a go at Faith for shutting her down, believing she'd be able to lead now that Buffy was gone. All this would suggest that Kennedy was talking about herself when she states people who have been there longer, especially when she was the first potential to have arrived now that Molly and Annabelle were both death.

I don't believe that she would have gotten any influence under the system suggested, Giles tells her to give him the knife down in the basement and she does so, Willow openly states that Kennedy is pushing too hard and in season eight Xander can effectively order around hundreds of slayers, I think he'd do the same with one noisy arrogant potential. I think if that system had been adopted and they had agreed to it, the power would have been delegated between Willow, Xander and Giles and it is likely being the slayer Faith would have some input as well.

[Anon]

I think it is safe to assume that the girls would have at least tried to jump over the wall and wouldn't have fallen to the floor and waited for the Turok Han to come. Logic would imply this would be the case. This is kind of my point, yelling out orders whilst people would do that exact thing anyway doesn't make a great leader.Some of them might have done. Others might have tried something completely different. You would be astonished how stupid people can be when panicking, especially if they've already given up on an idea (in this case, continuing down the same path).

Why not? Kennedy has always been about her getting a chance to lead, she loved the job of leading the potentials in those chants and in this very scene in question has a go at Faith for shutting her down, believing she'd be able to lead now that Buffy was gone. She might have believed she'd have more of a say, but that's different from saying she'd believed that she would be the one calling the shots.

I don't believe that she would have gotten any influence under the system suggested, Giles tells her to give him the knife down in the basement and she does so, Willow openly states that Kennedy is pushing too hard and in season eight Xander can effectively order around hundreds of slayers, I think he'd do the same with one noisy arrogant potential. I think if that system had been adopted and they had agreed to it, the power would have been delegated between Willow, Xander and Giles and it is likely being the slayer Faith would have some input as well.That's your opinion. Actually let's just agree to disagree. Neither of us have anything other than opinions based on personal interpretations of events and this really isn't going to get anywhere.

[Nostalgia]

Originally Posted by vampmogs
Very true. Which is why Nostalgia's idea doesn't really make a great deal of sense, Kennedy was made a slayer but when the powers handed out super strength and speed to her they didn't hand her that experience. Being the slayer doesn't give you leadership abiltities, it just puts you in a situation where people turn to you to lead.

Every human being is different.. therefore why would my idea not make a great deal of sense? If we are to assume that rather than being given leadership abilities we are make them ourselves, then why are the slayers in the first place? It's obvious that slayers aren't stronger than everyone, but given an advantage to everyone. A witch as strong enough as Willow could be argued to be stronger than every slayer that existed/exists as Buffy semi stated (although I disagree). Slayers are killed by vampires, showing that vampires sometimes prove to be physically stronger. So if we assume that slayers are powerful based on a head start past everyone, one that continues throughout their life why even have one when people can work hard enough to be at this quality anyway? Because the world needs an authority. Authority cannot be based on everyone, considering there are always better people in the world. If the Supreme Court makes a final decision, we are there to respect, hate, disagree with this decision. But we aren't here to change this decision. We're not in their position.

Joss had stated in the season seven Chosen commentary that he wanted to stress the difference between a slayer and everyone else. This was evident in Conversations With Dead People.

I think that Buffy and Faith are placed in a leadership position because of their title, holding that position and making people repsect and follow you is something that requires more than being the slayer though. The majority of the time Buffy's peers turned to her based on the fact she was a slayer, but it was her own personal skills of leadership that kept them turning to her.

. You state my opinion to "not make a great deal of sense" yet you also make a statement that everyone was counting on Faith and Buffy solely because of their duty and calling?

If we state that slayers are given leadership qualities solely because of their personalities and human abilities to lead, then aren't we questioning whether or not they should have been a slayer in the first place? I think if the PTB chose them to be a slayer then we can assume that they have the abilities to lead and be in control. Otherwise are we going to assume that there's a chance that a person shouldn't be called? That there's a chance that the Powers made a mistake? That's very stubborn in my opinion.

Jesus and his Disciples acted as the morality and protectors of their time.. but Jesus was ultimately the person in command. He was the chosen one, not one of his 12 disciples. They were there simply to help and serve, just as Xander, Willow, Oz, Cordy, and Giles do. If we assume that anyone that helps a slayer in some form is the authority as well, then that's basically stating that every human that exists is some form of authority, considering that everyone contributes to the world somehow.

[Anon]

You state my opinion to "not make a great deal of sense" yet you also make a statement that everyone was counting on Faith and Buffy solely because of their duty and calling?

If we state that slayers are given leadership qualities solely because of their personalities and human abilities to lead, then aren't we questioning whether or not they should have been a slayer in the first place?Thing is, Faith didn't have any of the qualities that make a good leader. Traditionally, the slayer served the council. Buffy changed a lot of things. She took the leadership role for herself. She got away with it. Most slayers wouldn't have done. Faith didn't and Kendra wouldn't have known how to lead them.

I think if the PTB chose them to be a slayer then we can assume that they have the abilities to lead and be in control. Otherwise are we going to assume that there's a chance that a person shouldn't be called? That there's a chance that the Powers made a mistake? That's very stubborn in my opinion.This only works if you assume that being a slayer and a leader are the same thing. It was made very clear on the show, several times, that a slayer traditionally served the watcher, not the other way round. Being a slayer and a leader are two entirely separate concepts.

Jesus and his Disciples acted as the morality and protectors of their time.. but Jesus was ultimately the person in command. He was the chosen one, not one of his 12 disciples. They were there simply to help and serve, just as Xander, Willow, Oz, Cordy, and Giles do.I could give you my opinion on Christ and his followers, but I don't fancy getting kicked of the forum so I'll drop the topic.

[Nostalgia]

This only works if you assume that being a slayer and a leader are the same thing. It was made very clear on the show, several times, that a slayer traditionally served the watcher, not the other way round. Being a slayer and a leader are two entirely separate concepts.

If the watcher is the man who draws the plans then what significance is Buffy betraying the council? It was evident that even the original Watchers hadn't been completely correct with their decision with how much freedom a slayer has.


It's stated in the show that it is a slayer's duty to protect and save the world. This is the purpose of their superpowers. Leading and saving the world are pretty much the exact same thing. Saving the world requires leadership. I'm not stating that slayers can't screw up and not be confident enough to lead (Faith.) What I'm trying to get across is that no one should lead above them.
Since no one has really made a remark to my last comment, I'd like to query whether or not people agree that Slayers have a bigger margin for error than humans do.

[Anon]

If the watcher is the man who draws the plans then what significance is Buffy betraying the council? It was evident that even the original Watchers hadn't been completely correct with their decision with how much freedom a slayer has.It was evident that the council had grown too rigid and were out of touch of the situation in Sunnydale. It was evident that Buffy found them a nuisance and didn't need them any more. It was evident that Buffy was ready and able to run things without their help. It was also evident that the old rules never really worked for Buffy. Buffy was exceptional, as were the circumstnaces she worked in.

It's stated in the show that it is a slayers duty to protect and save the world. This is the purpose of their superpowers. Leading and saving the world are pretty much the exact same thing. What????? How do you manage to figure that one out?

Saving the world requires leadership.Sorry, but there's still a logical disconnect there. Saving the world requiring leadership is not the same as saying that only a leader can save the world. To be honest I'm not sure that either is true.

I'm not stating that slayers can't screw up and not be confident enough to lead (Faith.) What I'm trying to get across is that no one should lead above them.What I'm trying to get across is that this is a fallacy.

Since no one has really made a remark to my last comment, I'd like to query whether or not people agree that Slayers have a bigger margin for error than humans do.I won't bother with the Jesus analogy, except to say that it is the only part of your last comment for which I can follow the reasoning, or make sense of. As for this, I would say that the slayers responsibilities give her less margin for error than most other people, even if they're only following orders instead of making decisions.

[Nostalgia]

What????? How do you manage to figure that one out?

Sorry, but there's still a logical disconnect there. Saving the world requiring leadership is not the same as saying that only a leader can save the world. To be honest I'm not sure that either is true.

What I'm trying to get across is that this is a fallacy.


What does leadership exactly mean to you? In my opinion, leadership is the confidence a person has to overcome and put others above themselves. Leadership is the eye that sees the bigger picture and has the ability make a change in the world. Leadership isn't always about giving orders and rankings. Therefore anyone that saves the world is therefore a leader. Xander is very much a leader in the sense that he stood alone without anyone's help in order to save the world.

How does saving the world not require leadership? How far off the deep end have you gone? You're then stating that if a person or creature saves the world by accident or chance, this is just as acceptable as a person who leads the world into safety?!!

If this is a mislead to you, then what exactly does a Slayer even mean to you? If this is a "fallacy," you honestly think the Buffyverse could exist without Slayers?

[Anon]

What does leadership exactly mean to you? In my opinion, leadership is the confidence a person has to overcome and put others above themselves. Leadership is the eye that sees the bigger picture and has the ability make a change in the world. Leadership isn't always about giving orders and rankings.
Let's be clear on this. Leadership requires the ability to make decisions and convince others to follow them. Ideally you would also be able to get others to support those decisions. If you can't do either of the first two, you aren't a leader.Look up the word 'leadership' and if you get a definition close to yours then please let me know (preferably with reference to your source).

How does saving the world not require leadership? How far off the deep end have you gone? You're then stating that if a person or creature saves the world by accident or chance, this is just as acceptable as a person who leads the world into safety?!!See above.

If this is a mislead to you, then what exactly does a Slayer even mean to you? If this is a "fallacy," you honestly think the Buffyverse could exist without Slayers?Again, see above.

[tangent]

Leaderhip obviously means different things to different people. Some see it as the ability to inspire. To show others through your actions that they can be better. To give them an ideal to work towards and to set an example for those that follow.

To me the slayer, on the whole, does this (as long as she's fighting on the right side that is.)

Others see it as the ability to take charge, to plan and strategise (as is mentioned in the name of this thread). To take command in the way that a general would.

Now although buffy herself does this, it is not traditonally the role of a slayer as they are, again traditionally, lone fighters who have a watcher to direct their actions.

Now given that usually the slayer is a focal point in the fight against evil that would mean that they inspire a lot of people (assumingthose people have heard of a slayer) but does that then give them an automatic right to take charge in the second way, to have their word held sancrosanct andtheir orders unquestioned? To me the answer is no. This is because the acts of bravery, skill, endurance and self sacrifice say nothing about tactical awareness, inteligence, ability to plan ahead etc. To me the person who strategizes in this way should be the one most capable of doing so regardless of their title.

Where i do think that a slayer has an edge is making decisions in the heat of battle. I think that their fighters instincts coupled with battle experienc probably gives them an advantage in making those snap decisions that can mean the difference between life and death. In the mid'st of the action it is important to have one clear voice and that would naturally be the one who is most aware of the fight.

In the long run though i do not believe that just because the slayer has advantages over a normal human that that gives them an automatic mandate to rule without being questioned by those who think they have made the wrong call. Oh and as on e last point if the world got saved by mistake then it still got saved. I say result!

[Nostalgia]

Look up the word 'leadership' and if you get a definition close to yours then please let me know (preferably with reference to your source).

See above.

Again, see above.

If you're actually going to try and use the dictionary as your word rather than speaking for yourself, then I have to say that's pretty pathetic.

If that's the case read these essays on leadership:

http://www.asu.edu/lib/archives/rhodes/essay24.htm

http://www.saem.org/publicat/chap14.html

http://kongming.net/novel/writings/wotg/

The way you treat some situations is very dull. Rather than forming a full opinion you're sending me on dictionary errands? Since when is opinion only based on text and not on interpretation?

[Nostalgia]

Originally Posted by tangent
Now given that usually the slayer is a focal point in the fight against evil that would mean that they inspire a lot of people (assuming those people have heard of a slayer) but does that then give them an automatic right to take charge in the second way, to have their word held sancrosanct andtheir orders unquestioned? To me the answer is no. This is because the acts of bravery, skill, endurance and self sacrifice say nothing about tactical awareness, inteligence, ability to plan ahead etc. To me the person who strategizes in this way should be the one most capable of doing so regardless of their title.

Where i do think that a slayer has an edge is making decisions in the heat of battle. I think that their fighters instincts coupled with battle experienc probably gives them an advantage in making those snap decisions that can mean the difference between life and death. In the mid'st of the action it is important to have one clear voice and that would naturally be the one who is most aware of the fight.

In the long run though i do not believe that just because the slayer has advantages over a normal human that that gives them an automatic mandate to rule without being questioned by those who think they have made the wrong call. Oh and as on e last point if the world got saved by mistake then it still got saved. I say result!

If a Slayer has the advantage in a heated situation, when it comes down to the wire, then why doesn't she if it's a well thought out timed situation? I still don't understand how a Slayer could be called to have the duty to protect the World and it would be okay for them to not be choosing the paths that need to be taken.

What happened when Buffy was ripped from her place? What did Spike tell her?

6.20 Touched

SPIKE
You’re the one, Buffy.
BUFFY
I don’t want to be the one.

It's her duty to be making the decisions, its her duty to protect the world, its her duty to keep everyone safe. No one else has the right. No one else was chosen. Why do you think Slayers become so lonely otherwise?

[tangent]

If a Slayer has the advantage in a heated situation, when it comes down to the wire, then why doesn't she if it's a well thought out timed situation?

Because the former is more about instincts, about reacting to a situation as it happens. The latter requires more long term planning and a view of the bigger picture, which is difficultto get when your in the middle of that picture.

I still don't understand how a Slayer could be called to have the duty to protect the World and it would be okay for them to not be choosing the paths that need to be taken.

Look at it this way, a soldier is called upon to do their duty to protect their country but they still rely on information and tactical knowledge from their superiors. A slayer is obviously just one person but they are still primarily a fighter not a planner.

The quote is a little out of cvontect. What spike is telling her here is that she is the woman for him that she is 'the one' in the romatic sense.

It's her duty to be making the decisions, its her duty to protect the world, its her duty to keep everyone safe. No one else has the right. No one else was chosen. Why do you think Slayers become so lonely otherwise?

To protect, to keep everyone safe yes to make plans no. No one else has the right? So gunn, wood, xander, willow et al shouldn't fight cos they weren't called. Buffy is alone because she has to fight, she has no choice, the others do.

[Nostalgia]

Because the former is more about instincts, about reacting to a situation as it happens. The latter requires more long term planning and a view of the bigger picture, which is difficultto get when your in the middle of that picture.

So then would you be implying that not only are Slayers not the only ones in charge but they don't think as logically as others do?


Look at it this way, a soldier is called upon to do their duty to protect their country but they still rely on information and tactical knowledge from their superiors. A slayer is obviously just one person but they are still primarily a fighter not a planner.

This just isn't true though. The slayer is the full package. When a girl signs on to be a Slayer, there's no specifics to just combat. If this is the case, then why did everyone assume Buffy and Faith as leaders of the entire season seven role/plot?

6.20: Empty Places
RONA
Why is that, exactly?
BUFFY
Because I'm the slayer.
RONA
And isn't Faith a slayer, too?

Everyone clearly demonstrates that they respect the Slayer as head charge.

The quote is a little out of cvontect. What spike is telling her here is that she is the woman for him that she is 'the one' in the romatic sense.

You might see it this way, but in the long run it was more than trying to convince Buffy that she's the only one for him. That's not what Buffy needed to hear in the first place. Buffy needed to realize that she is the Slayer. That she is in charge and that she should never doubt herself when she knows she is right, even when your friends and family don't believe in you.

To protect, to keep everyone safe yes to make plans no. No one else has the right? So gunn, wood, xander, willow et al shouldn't fight cos they weren't called. Buffy is alone because she has to fight, she has no choice, the others do.

How can you protect and keep everyone safe without making plans? No, no one else has the right the assume duty as full authority. They sure can help.. but anyone that actually believes that they have better tactics than a slayer is out of line.

[vampmogs]

Originally Posted by Nostalgia
If you're actually going to try and use the dictionary as your word rather than speaking for yourself, then I have to say that's pretty pathetic.

Okay you are being extremely rude here, calling another member pathetic isn't allowed so remember that. Nor is it pathetic to use a dictionary to further your point, perhaps you should check the definition of leadership because half of what you were saying has nothing to do with leadership.

If we state that slayers are given leadership qualities solely because of their personalities and human abilities to lead, then aren't we questioning whether or not they should have been a slayer in the first place? I think if the PTB chose them to be a slayer then we can assume that they have the abilities to lead and be in control. Otherwise are we going to assume that there's a chance that a person shouldn't be called? That there's a chance that the Powers made a mistake? That's very stubborn in my opinion.

Really? Cause the PTB chose Dana to be a slayer and she had been driven insane as a child and ended up killing innocent people because she couldn't understand what she was doing. You going to tell me that she had the ability to lead based on the fact that she is a slayer? Furthermore, if I chose to take that viewpoint that the PTB can mistakes.. because you know we have afterall seen them do it with Cordy and Jasmine and everything.. how exactly would that be stubborn? How does that would even apply to what you are saying?

So then would you be implying that not only are Slayers not the only ones in charge but they don't think as logically as others do?

A slayer is a person, so it is natural that there will always be someone who thinks more logically than they do. Are you going to tell me Faith thought more logically than Xander or Willow when she decided to try and strangle Xander to death in her motel room?

This just isn't true though. The slayer is the full package. When a girl signs on to be a Slayer, there's no specifics to just combat. If this is the case, then why did everyone assume Buffy and Faith as leaders of the entire season seven role/plot?

Firstly, a girl doesn't sign on to be the slayer she is chosen to be the slayer wether she likes it or not. It has never been stated that a slayer gets leadership qualities along with her special skills, to loosely quote the Quentin Travers "the slayer is the tool used to fight the war."

Can I ask you something? Why the hell would a slayer be given leadership qualities when they were always supposed to work alone, when the first slayer was created by being chained down and have a demon essence forced in her against her will? when they were supposed to work for the council and have no one working for them? Why be given leadership qualities when they were never supposed to have anyone to lead?

Everyone clearly demonstrates that they respect the Slayer as head charge.

Buffy believes this to be the case so Rona points out; Faith is a slayer as well basically finding a loop hole in Buffy's own argument. If they respected it so much they would have never believed they had the right to kick Buffy out of her leadership position.

You might see it this way, but in the long run it was more than trying to convince Buffy that she's the only one for him. That's not what Buffy needed to hear in the first place. Buffy needed to realize that she is the Slayer. That she is in charge and that she should never doubt herself when she knows she is right, even when your friends and family don't believe in you.

It wasn't about Buffy being the slayer, it was about Buffy being Buffy. Spike doesn't respect Faith as leader but shouldn't he based on the fact she is the slayer? According to your logic that'd make sense wouldn't it? It is because of what Buffy has been through that she has grown to be a good leader that deserves that title, not because she is the slayer.

How can you protect and keep everyone safe without making plans? No, no one else has the right the assume duty as full authority. They sure can help.. but anyone that actually believes that they have better tactics than a slayer is out of line.

This doesn't make a bit of sense. The point of Joss' characters were to make them human with human flaws that is why they are interesting. Nor Kendra, Buffy or Faith were incapable of making flaws and nor were they better than anyone at working out tactics because they were the slayer- they were never meant to be perfect.

Again I say if being a slayer automatically gives a slayer the ability to lead and puts them at a position that they are better than anyone else at making tactics, how'd you feel about Kennedy being a leader in season eight? Did she suddenly get all these magic leadership abilities?

[tangent]

So then would you be implying that not only are Slayers not the only ones in charge but they don't think as logically as others do?

You see this is where i think we run into trouble. Do slayers think less logically thacalling are human beings with different personalities and minds. The fact that a particular slayer might be a tactical genius doesn't mean the next one will be. However i wasn't actually implying that at all just that it can be hard to look at the over all picture when your actually part of that picture.

This just isn't true though. The slayer is the full package. When a girl signs on to be a Slayer, there's no specifics to just combat. If this is the case, then why did everyone assume Buffy and Faith as leaders of the entire season seven role/plot?

Because buffy had at that point a lot of experience in battling big bads and they were on her turf. To me Giles should certainly have had more input in the season though as arguably he has better experience of strategizing.

You might see it this way, but in the long run it was more than trying to convince Buffy that she's the only one for him. That's not what Buffy needed to hear in the first place. Buffy needed to realize that she is the Slayer. That she is in charge and that she should never doubt herself when she knows she is right, even when your friends and family don't believe in you
Yeah you have a point there. He's still saying it to buffy though. Not just any slayer but buffy.

How can you protect and keep everyone safe without making plans? No, no one else has the right the assume duty as full authority. They sure can help.. but anyone that actually believes that they have better tactics than a slayer is out of line.[/QUOTE]

Not if they have better tactics than the slayer. You can still keep people safe without having the natural ability to make long term strategical plans. You can do this by having someone nearby who does and allowing them to guide you.

So a couple of questions.

are you saying that every slayer (including faith and kendra and all the ones that came before are given some kind of superhuman tactical knowledge and if so what is your evidence for this?

And

If a slayer comes up with a plan that is clearly suicidal and has more holes in it than a fishing net should it be blindly followed just because the slayer said so?

[Nostalgia]

Okay you are being extremely rude here, calling another member pathetic isn't allowed so remember that. Nor is it pathetic to use a dictionary to further your point, perhaps you should check the definition of leadership because half of what you were saying has nothing to do with leadership.

I never said that anyone is pathetic.. I said that the fact that rather than explaining his/herself but telling me to look up the definition is pathetic. What point was there to further? I was just specifically told to look into a dictionary for information. I took it as rude, considering the three "aboves" that were used as if she/he didn't have the time to explain themself.


Really? Cause the PTB chose Dana to be a slayer and she had been driven insane as a child and ended up killing innocent people because she couldn't understand what she was doing. You going to tell me that she had the ability to lead based on the fact that she is a slayer? Furthermore, if I chose to take that viewpoint that the PTB can mistakes.. because you know we have afterall seen them do it with Cordy and Jasmine and everything.. how exactly would that be stubborn? How does that would even apply to what you are saying?

This is an extreme case but a very valid point. I still feel like there's a big purpose than random selection despite this though.

A slayer is a person, so it is natural that there will always be someone who thinks more logically than they do. Are you going to tell me Faith thought more logically than Xander or Willow when she decided to try and strangle Xander to death in her motel room?


I am going to tell you that in the end Faith would have the better idea of how to scope out a plan because of a slayer's instinct.

Firstly, a girl doesn't sign on to be the slayer she is chosen to be the slayer wether she likes it or not. It has never been stated that a slayer gets leadership qualities along with her special skills, to loosely quote the Quentin Travers "the slayer is the tool used to fight the war."

When I stated "Sign on", I mean't metaphorically. I never said that it was "stated," I don't know how many times I've said it's solely my opinion though.

Can I ask you something? Why the hell would a slayer be given leadership qualities when they were always supposed to work alone, when the first slayer was created by being chained down and have a demon essence forced in her against her will? when they were supposed to work for the council and have no one working for them? Why be given leadership qualities when they were never supposed to have anyone to lead?


It was originally the Watchers intent to keep them alone, to have them fight without an army to lead or any type of situation that requires leadership. However, the Watchers aren't the PTB. We have no way of determining if the PTB knew if Buffy would one day face an army, or have to guide friends into battle as well.

Buffy believes this to be the case so Rona points out; Faith is a slayer as well basically finding a loop hole in Buffy's own argument. If they respected it so much they would have never believed they had the right to kick Buffy out of her leadership position.


Who did they resort to after Buffy? Faith, correct?


It wasn't about Buffy being the slayer, it was about Buffy being Buffy. Spike doesn't respect Faith as leader but shouldn't he based on the fact she is the slayer? According to your logic that'd make sense wouldn't it? It is because of what Buffy has been through that she has grown to be a good leader that deserves that title, not because she is the slayer.

I don't necessarily agree with this at all. If that's the case, what is "The one?" The one and only Buffy? It definetly works both ways.


This doesn't make a bit of sense. The point of Joss' characters were to make them human with human flaws that is why they are interesting. Nor Kendra, Buffy or Faith were incapable of making flaws and nor were they better than anyone at working out tactics because they were the slayer- they were never meant to be perfect.

Again I say if being a slayer automatically gives a slayer the ability to lead and puts them at a position that they are better than anyone else at making tactics, how'd you feel about Kennedy being a leader in season eight? Did she suddenly get all these magic leadership abilities?

I never stated a slayer could be flawless at all. All characters are different and all slayers played their role different ways. Also a Slayer having natural leadership skills would in no way make them perfect. Leadership can become corrupted.

As for the Kennedy question, I've previously stated that a Slayer develops into a strategic player as they grow. As a mom learns the correct ways to nourish and guide her children, as does a Slayer and her world.

[Anon]

If you're actually going to try and use the dictionary as your word rather than speaking for yourself, then I have to say that's pretty pathetic. Your definition of leadership doesn't fit any definition of the word I have ever encountered, or any official definition as is entered in a dictionary. You can interpret these definitions and decide where they apply, but you seem to have gone beyond that.

If that's the case read these essays on leadership:

http://www.asu.edu/lib/archives/rhodes/essay24.htm

http://www.saem.org/publicat/chap14.html

http://kongming.net/novel/writings/wotg/Thanks for showing me these...

The way you treat some situations is very dull. Rather than forming a full opinion you're sending me on dictionary errands? Since when is opinion only based on text and not on interpretation?Time to do something entertaining then:
Here is a definition of 'Leadership' as defined by one of your sources:
Leadership is the ability to get people to follow.
Compare that with my definition and the one you use.

Unfortunately the other two didn't seem to have much that defined leadership. One was about how to obtain it, and the other was about someone who was a leader. Both seemed in line with my definition, but neither actually gave anything that would help.

vampmogs, leave Kennedy out of this. That discussion has already been done in this thread. However I do agree with you in a more general sense.

he didn't have the time to explain themself.Or alternatively, I didn't say anything else because I would simply have been repeating myself. As it was you were asking a question that had already been answered.

Who did they resort to after Buffy? Faith, correct?That was because Buffy set up a system where by the slayer was in charge. I think I've answered this one on at least two previous occasions as well.

Leadership is a role that Buffy took away from her watcher, who would traditionally be the one in charge. She was able to do this for numerous reasons, the main two being that she was needed to fight the war against evil and that most of the time her decision making was fairly good. However, she was also far from perfect. She screwed up in any number of ways that showed she was still, largely, human. Her instincts may have helped her spot things that others missed, but they didn't automatically make her a qualified leader. Faith could never have taken the leadership role in the way Buffy did. The only reason she managed it in season 7 was that Buffy had set the status quo and Faith simply took her role temporarily.
Buffy had created a system where by the Slayer was in charge. That is the only reason Faith was even considered for a leadership role, and it is certainly the only reason she got the job.