Darla or Drusilla?

[icegemz]

Okay my question is this. Out of Darla and Drusilla, who did Angelus have a special place in his twisted heart for? Who did he preffer?

Okay I think that it would be more Drusilla then Darla and heres why. He put alot of time and work into breaking Drus mind and turning her insane.

Don't get me wrong, Darla sired him and taught him the ways of the Vampire but Angelus loved to be in charge and he was never that when it came to Darla. But because he sired Drusilla after torturing her, he always could control Dru and do whatever he felt like doing to her. Drusilla never said no to her daddy but Darla always did what she liked, no matter what Angelus thought.

Maybe I'm wrong. Whats your views??

[Nina]

No question, Darla.

Darla was his equal, smart, exciting and she had the same ideas as Angelus. Darla showed him the world, she was the woman of his dreams. It was Darla he shared everything with, it was Darla who gave him Dru and the Roma daughter. She played the same games, she could keep him him for 150 years without him getting bored. Dru was a toy ... an artwork, a masterpiece to show his badness ... not a mate for the rest of his life, Darla was. I believe that Darla & Angelus would still be together if they never went to Romania.

I think that this conversation says all:

Dru: "I'm full and warm - yet all alone."
Angelus: "That's not true, precious. You've got us."
Dru: "Not in the least. You won't even have me just a little bit."
Darla: "All you have to do is ask."
Dru: "No. He's head's too full of you, grandmother."
[...]
Angelus: "Well, if you're lonely, Dru, why don't you make yourself a playmate?"
[...]
Angelus: "You think she'll find a good one?"
Darla: "I found you."

Angelus is clearly still into Darla and got bored with Dru after a while. He is fine with her getting a mate. I think that Angelus had his obsessive moments (like with Dru) but he always came back to Darla, and that was probably why Darla was so upset when he choose Buffy and not her ... for the first time he didn't came back.

Also his behavior after he got a soul. Angel's bond with Darla is much stronger than his bond with Drusilla. He feels guilty for what he did to Drusilla but it was Darla who drove him crazy, it was Darla he focussed on when both girls were in town.

Nope, I think that is was Darla ... and somehow it will always be Darla. Nobody knows him better and nobody can excite him like she can.

[sueworld]

Oh I agree, Darla, not question.

As Nina says she was his Sire, his equal, his lover.

[Bloodsucker]

I'd say Darla, too. Drusilla is just a plaything for Angelus, whereas for Darla he has soem kind of respect.

[kana]

Darla was also the only one he indulged. Sadism usually only works for someone like Angelus if the person isn't a masochist. Once Dru became one, he didn't bother indulging her but Darla also likes her pain and Angelus being the kind 'soul' that he was only too happy to oblige.

[assydingo]

In the vampire world relationships are very complicated. The sire feels a paternal bond it seems... but often are sexually attracted to them as well. I think Drusilla was Angel's twisted father/daughter relationship in a way. But she was also a sexual partner.

He seemed to love Darla though. His affection for her seemed more than pleasure-based.

[hawkedup]

Angelus did not love Darla. They were great together as evil creatures, but there was no love involved.

[Nina]

We don't know that ... James/Elisabeth, Spike/Dru ... they used to 'love' eachother and it was certainly not the same feeling we cal 'love'. It's a word, we can't look in their heads and compare the feelings. Darla and Angelus were both vampire who had nothing with the romantic forever together thought ... while their bond was really strong and defintly not weaker than Spike/Dru's relation.

Actually Darla used 'love' to describe their feelings together in 'Angel':
Darla: To love someone who used to love you.

Love is just a word, and some people use it and some don't. I can see Angelus not using it because it's 'too human' for him. That doesn't mean that he cares less about Darla than Dru cares about Spike.

Personally, I think that Angelus cared more about Darla than he showed while other couples were too dramatic.




Or do you mean the human version of 'love'? in that case; I agree.

[vampmogs]

It's tricky because both Angel and Darla state that they never loved before. Angel tells Darla in 'Dear Boy' that he never loved her, and then in season three with a soul Darla tells Angel that Connor's the first thing she's ever been able to love. When both of them have souls neither believe they loved one another.

But as you say, in 'Angel' Darla states she loved him, so perhaps Darla views vampire love as different than when she has a soul, and our version of love.

[Bloodsucker]

Maybe in her soulless state she refers to a certain kind of passion for Angelus. Vampires may not be capable of love, but they can be obsessed with something, and this probably is their equivalent.

[assydingo]

I think vampires can love but it is a flawed, mostly self-serving love.

Maybe a better word for that is infatuation...

[hawkedup]

I don't know what you guys consider to be love but I've never seen anything on the show that would suggest a soulless vampire has ever loved someone, much less another vampire. I’m a little afraid for anyone who thinks that the vampire “love” depicted in the show in any way resembles what love actually is.

[Nina]

I use two kinds of love ... vampire love which is twisted and for us not real love, but for them the closest thing to love they can feel.

And our kind of love, I agree that a soulless demon will never love the way we do.


My reaction is my standard reaction when somebody says that Spike is a better person because he can love somebody without a soul and Angel can't. But I agree with what you said, I just did read it wrong. :)

[buffyholic]

Darla. Darla was his mother, his lover, his sire, she taught Angelus everything. She "made" Angelus into a saddistic killer, she was badass and she wanted an equal. In Angelus, she found it and she was always pushing the envelope, always giving him things that fed his murderous impulses. She was the one who found Drusilla for him and the gypsy girl. And she was sick too. When Angelus was biting the gypsy girl, Darla said she wanted to watch. Angelus was her darling, her "dear boy". So, they have a lot of history together.

[DigitalLeonardo]

Darla.

No question. She was the one person I feel that Angel could be truthful with, even with Buffy or Cordelia he had to lie. He could never go into full detail of his true nature and his true past. I mean even Faith saw things he had done and was not able to look at him the same, imagine if Buffy or Cordelia found out that he hate that store clerk!

But with Darla they can just be free and happy. I really would have loved ALOT more Darla scenes and even seeing her as a series regular in season 2 cause I think she deserves it...

Oh Darla :heart:

[buffyholic]

And that´s why W&H´s plan in S2 worked out great, until their death anyway. But for a while, Angel was isolated from his mission and his friends because of Darla, because she had such an impact on him. Their plan in bringing Darla back was genius!

[Nina]

Cordelia does know about everything, didn't she? She saw it all when she was in heaven. She knows in season 5 while it was the real Cordelia talking, and she was fine with him. Cordelia never saw Angel as more than that he was, like the scene were she promissed to kill him somewhere in season 1. I think that from all the people in the 'verse; Buffy is the person who would have the most trouble dealing with seeing everything Angel(us) did.


And did we ever agree so much in a poll, ever?

[Roses-r-Red]

I think that from all the people in the 'verse; Buffy is the person who would have the most trouble dealing with seeing everything Angel(us) did.

I actually think the opposite. Buffy is the only one who actually dealt with Angelus up close and personal (besides Darla). Like she said in "Amends": "I know everything you did because you did it to me." She also saw Angelus kill that servant in the dream they shared. I think Buffy knows exactly who Angelus is and still cared for Angel besides what she knew.

If she took Faith's place in "Orpheus", I don't think she'd be any more shocked than Faith was in that scene with the store clerk. Buffy saw Angel when he came back from Hell and he was not exactly the Angel of Season 1 and the beginning of Season 2. He killed the boy in "Beauty and the Beast" right in front of Buffy.

[vampmogs]

Yeah I think I have to agree with Roses-R-Red on this one. God Nina usually we agree on everything! :roll: Oh well it makes for a change! :)

Buffy's be faced with some of the harsh reality of Angelus. She'll never see everything but she's been through it and seen some of it, both past and present, first hand.

Much like Drusilla she was a victim of Angelus herself, she was a girl he became obsessed with, her life became a toy for him the same way Drusilla's did, they're incredibly similar. He killed her friends, he tortured her watcher, he emotionally and physically hurt her and he taunted her with threats against her mother. Buffy also saw him in 'Amends' as the post above me points out, so she sees first hand some of his cruelty and crimes towards others back before he gets his soul. And she's capable enough to demand Angel tell her the truth about Dru, she listens as he tells her about what he did to Drusilla and she still loves him regardless.

But I agree that Cordy would be able to live with it. It wasn't really Cordy telling him that she can't and as Nina says, she was fine with him in 'You're Welcome.'

[Nina]

Oh no, :lol:

I always have the feeling that Buffy tries to ignore Angel's issues and past. She asked it once and never again. I never liked her lines in 'Amends' about knowing it because he did it to her. He made her scared, but he never came close to his real cruelty. Buffy had a hard time, of course she had, but Holtz found his family killed/sired/raped. Drusilla had to watch how all her loved ones were killed and got sired to burn forever, The gypsies lost their favourite daughter because Angelus raped and killed her. The father who found his two little kids in bed ... dead while Angelus was probably watching because the father was dead after a while as well.

Angelus failed in Buffy's case, he had the chance to kill/rape/sire Willow & Joyce. He could enter Giles' house, so he could kill him as well. Angelus would've won if he did that, but he didn't. Buffy saw a failing Angelus.

Buffy saw and felt glimpses but so did Cordelia, who was still shocked after seeing everything Angelus did (could be Jasmine though, I'm not sure). And from the two girls, it was always Cordelia who had less trouble seeing Angel for what he was. Buffy doesn't know anything about Angel's past or issues, at least she never showed that she did. Even in Amends, she made it more about her than about Angel. It could be another reason why Angel didn't open up (drinking blood in public) until Ats, because Cordelia and Wesley (who knew everything about Angelus) weren't running from what Angel was ... but accepting it, while I missed that with Buffy. And it's not really her fault, because it's not easy to accept ... but I never saw her accept Angel as the person who he is & was.

[vampmogs]

I always have the feeling that Buffy tries to ignore Angel's issues and past. She asked it once and never again.

We did see Buffy try and learn more about Angel in 'Halloween' which is one of, if not, the only time Buffy ever bothers to learn anything about the guy she's dating, usually it's the other way around :lol: So that's something. But I got the impression from 'Earshot' that Buffy was hesitant to ask Angel because, as she puts it, he's not exactly "Jo here's what I'm thinking." It's not until that episode that he tells her simply "then ask me" in which she replies "oh but that would have made sense."

I never liked her lines in 'Amends' about knowing it because he did it to her. He made her scared, but he never came close to his real cruelty. Buffy had a hard time, of course she had, but Holtz found his family killed/sired/raped. Drusilla had to watch how all her loved ones were killed and got sired to burn forever, The gypsies lost their favourite daughter because Angelus raped and killed her. The father who found his two little kids in bed ... dead while Angelus was probably watching because the father was dead after a while as well.

Angelus failed in Buffy's case, he had the chance to kill/rape/sire Willow & Joyce. He could enter Giles' house, so he could kill him as well. Angelus would've won if he did that, but he didn't. Buffy saw a failing Angelus.

Well he did kill Jenny and Theresa and she states in a later episode that he's been killing other members of her class, so I got the impression he's killed more people that we never actually saw on screen. He may have failed a lot of the time but he made Buffy's life a living hell.

It could be another reason why Angel didn't open up (drinking blood in public) until Ats, because Cordelia and Wesley (who knew everything about Angelus) weren't running from what Angel was ... but accepting it, while I missed that with Buffy. And it's not really her fault, because it's not easy to accept ... but I never saw her accept Angel as the person who he is & was.

I agree that Angel opened up more in Ats but I think Buffy accepted what Angel was. I think that's the point of their scene in 'What's My Line' when she says she doesn't care about his vampire face, whilst Angel feels ashamed, she strokes it and kisses him. And she did bring him his blood on at least two occasions in season three.

[Nina]

We did see Buffy try and learn more about Angel in 'Halloween' which is one of, if not, the only time Buffy ever bothers to learn anything about the guy she's dating, usually it's the other way around :lol: So that's something. But I got the impression from 'Earshot' that Buffy was hesitant to ask Angel because, as she puts it, he's not exactly "Jo here's what I'm thinking." It's not until that episode that he tells her simply "then ask me" in which she replies "oh but that would have made sense."

And we found out that the information if Giles' diary was wrong. :lol: Poor Buffy.

Angel has no problems telling stories about his past, like he said; all you have to do is ask. I think that it would be nice if Buffy showed sometimes if she has knowledge about Angel; dropping his real name, something about his family, were he came from, her finding out about his bad relation with his father, what he likes to do, that he loves coffee ... anything.


Well he did kill Jenny and Theresa and she states in a later episode that he's been killing other members of her class, so I got the impression he's killed more people that we never actually saw on screen. He may have failed a lot of the time but he made Buffy's life a living hell.
But it was never close, Jenny was self-defence and Theresa was never really close just like all the other people he killed. It weren't here closest friends, family, kids etc. And that's what he did to his previous victims. The thing that hurted the most was Angelus' face because it was Angel's face ... but what he did was not much worse than what Spike and/or Dru did. Angelus did much worse in the past.


I agree that Angel opened up more in Ats but I think Buffy accepted what Angel was. I think that's the point of their scene in 'What's My Line' when she says she doesn't care about his vampire face, whilst Angel feels ashamed, she strokes it and kisses him. And she did bring him his blood on at least two occasions in season three.

But WML happened before the whole Angelus arc. In WML, Angel was some puppy with fangs, which he showed when Buffy was in danger. Angel's incredible nasty past was too far away for Buffy at that point. In season 3, the whole team showed fear/anger and also Buffy dumped him, came back to him and tried to keep distance again. A scene like Angel had with Cordelia after "Somnambulist", she never had. And I think that it would be nice if they would have faced the vampire issues a bit more, and not only his immortality and the curse. Because to me, it felt like Buffy was really in love with somebody she can't deal with. Instead, both tried to find their season 2 relation back, which was of course impossible. They both tried to ignore Angelus and Angel's issues.

[vampmogs]

Hey Nina I've moved the discussion over to the Buffy/Angel thread so we don't go too of course from the point of this thread, check it out there :)

[buffyholic]

Darla had a huge impact on Angel, and vice-versa. Darla really made him what he was. And I´m not just talking about siring him, she gave him a new life, let him explore his instintcs and his nature.

Now, do you think Liam had "evil" inside of him, like Darla said? Darla said that she chose him because she saw what was inside of him, what he could do.

[Nina]

I think that Liam was not evil, or at least not more evil than other people. I think that Darla picked Liam for 3 reasons;

1. Liam's physical appearance & talents; he was handsome, strong, smart, his parents were rich and Liam had probably the best education they could get in that time.

2. Liam was born in the wrong time; he wanted to see the world, doubted god and had no interest in the rich women of that time because they couldn't challenge him. He wanted an equal.

3. Liam's frustration, he had so much anger in him and I think that Darla saw the potential of that anger. Liam knew the power of words because his father destroyed him with words and Angelus used that knowledge to become the greatest vampire of all time.

[Roses-r-Red]

I think that Liam was not evil, or at least not more evil than other people. I think that Darla picked Liam for 3 reasons;

1. Liam's physical appearance & talents; he was handsome, strong, smart, his parents were rich and Liam had probably the best education they could get in that time.

2. Liam was born in the wrong time; he wanted to see the world, doubted god and had no interest in the rich women of that time because they couldn't challenge him. He wanted an equal.

3. Liam's frustration, he had so much anger in him and I think that Darla saw the potential of that anger. Liam knew the power of words because his father destroyed him with words and Angelus used that knowledge to become the greatest vampire of all time.

Nina, I love this answer. Very insightful and makes a lot of sense. I never thought Liam was evil, just a product of his environment.

[buffyholic]

And Darla used that potential to make him the worst vampire that ever existed. She was the one who discovered Drusilla, and the one who gave him the gypsy girl. She was always pushing further.

[Nina]

I'm not sure if Darla made Angelus. I think that Liam's dad did enough. The girls she gave were just presents, like a birthday gift. I doubt if Darla was not pushing him, because we saw her face when he was buzy with Drusilla. It went too far for Darla at that point. Angelus was crueler than Darla could enjoy. I think that she didn't want to push that any further.