What secondary character(s) should've been explored more? [Archive]

Weredog

20-09-08, 02:16 PM

Okay, so we can all name episodes that are " (insert character) -centric". These are episodes that explore the characteristics that define the past, the present, and the future actions of the main guys: Buffy, Willow, Xander, Giles, Dawn, Spike, and Angel.

However are there any secondary characters you wish had more (or any) episodes that explored their background?

I definitely wish Oz was further explored. I feel like if you put Willow and the werewolf aside, we know absolutely nothing about him. I can only think of four episodes that revolve around him: "Phases", "Beauty and the Beasts", "Wild at Heart", and "New Moon Rising." However, I would argue that the latter three revolve more around Willow and her concern with the werewolf in him. Let's face it: we were led to favour Willow over Oz, right?
I think an episode from Oz' point-of-views that focused away from his werewolf would've been very interesting. For example, season 3 could've had an episode where Oz is very self-conscious about repeating senior year -- making him question himself if he (a failure) is compatible for Willow (a victor), or for the Scoobies themselves.
I find it kinda unfortunate that "Phases" was the only episode that mainly had the viewers in Oz's shoes.

Nina

20-09-08, 02:31 PM

I think that the most love interests needed more exploring. Hence Angel getting his own series, where also Cordelia and Wesley got more depth. (and Spike as well, but I'm in the minority with my statement that Spike got a lot more development in his time on Ats than in his run on BtVS).

That leaves us with the characters who never went to Ats; Anya, Oz, Tara & Riley.

Anya; 4 seasons long she was used as comic relief and only Selfless touched the potential the character has. This girl is a massmurderer while she had a soul. She is more than an egocentric woman who loves sex. Still it's almost the only thing we saw for 4 seasons.

Riley and Tara aren't very complex people, they were the perfect boyfriend and girlfriend ... I think that we saw enough of them ... of course they deserved one or two episodes extra, especially Tara ... but there weren't a lot of mysteries or problems around those two.

I agree with you about Oz, it was very hard to understand how he felt and his role was the most of the time not more than saying funny lines and being a really cool boyfriend.

so, Anya gets my vote ... less funny Anya and more serious Anya.

vampmogs

20-09-08, 02:56 PM

I'm with Nina, Anya needed more time. It's not fair the vamps get so much time dedicated to their history when Anya's been around for 1000 years and only got one episode dealing with her past. She must have got up to some really interesting things, more could be explored. And as a comedic character we never got a lot of insight into her, it's unfortunate because characters like Angel and Spike were made to pay and feel guilty for their crimes but they let Anya get off with a lot.

Oz as well, it's weird because I never felt like I needed to know heaps more about him, but I agree it would be nice. I love his character though, he's fantastic, I love his dry wit.

Wouldn't mind even getting a bit more on Dru I gotta say, she's the least fleshed out character out of the "fang four" and yeah, maybe some more Tara but she never really interested me. She was sweet, a lovely warm person, but I'd have liked to see more.

carousel_girl8

20-09-08, 05:34 PM

I agree about Dru, I found her an interesting character because of her insanity and I would have liked to have seen the writers explore her history more. I find her and Angel/Angelus's past very blurry, we don't know much about his obsession with her when she was human and why he was so desperate to make her crazy. I would like to have seen more of her point of view in her history.

I don't know if this has been written about in Season 8 of Buffy but I would like to have seen more of Amy too, why she became so bitter towards Willow and also how she became involved with Rack in the first place because before she was a rat she didn't seem like she was that involved that she was a complete magic addict.

icegemz

21-09-08, 10:33 PM

The character I always wondered about and wish was explained more was Drusilla. I would like to have seen more of her personality before she got turned. In most of her flash backs where she is still human, she is in a paniciky state.

I also would love to know what happened to her after Buffy season 5. She only reappears after this point in flash backs. I mean out of the Fang four, we know what happens to the other three but Drusilla where abouts is never explain or discussed again. I just find it irrating.

I was kind of hoping she would reappear in real time in Angel season 5, just for a second. It would have been cool to see both Angels and Spike joint reaction to her. They would probly start blaming each other for her appearance...or compette who she came to see .... but I'm going off the point.

I do believe out of all the secondary characters in Buffy, Drusilla's character work was serious lacking and should have been worked on some more.

Theresa Marie86

21-09-08, 10:56 PM

I have two i would of liked to know about Jenny, and Olivia!! I mean what do we really know about either of them? Ecspecially Olivia! It wouldve been nice to have delved into Giles' backgrounds alittle more. Give him a little more screen time with his relationships. He barely ever got anytime with girlfriends the poor guy. It wouldve also been nice if they explained what actually happened between him and Olivia. I know she was saying she didnt know if she could live around all the demons and what nots but what was really said?

Oh and def more Oz! I looove Oz! And i agree with what has already been said he did deserve more of a background then what he got.

watcher1006

21-09-08, 11:38 PM

I certainly would have liked to have seen more of Amy. The Buffyverse's original witch. She was taken out of the picture when she turned herself into a rat in Season 3's "Gingerbread", not to return for almost three seasons (save for a few seconds appearance in S4 "Something Blue"). The rivalry/jealousy story we saw with her v. Willow in Seasons 6-7 gave a hint of what more we might have seen had she been brought back earlier or had the show gone on longer.

RuFio

22-09-08, 03:40 AM

Definitely ANYA. I also would've liked to have seen more serious anya. Granted, anyas comic relief was VERY welcome ,but being such a prominent character in the final 4 seasons, I feel she could've been explored much more.

We did see quite a bit of Dru's history, but it would've been nice to get in her head more-to see what makes her crazy brain tick.

Now, AMY definitely should've been explored more in seasons six and seven. With her being like she is now in season 8, there should've been much more backstory there- ESPECIALLY in season seven.

Other characters that had major potential that they didn't seem to ever reach : Joyce, Veruca, Halfrek

bknick

22-09-08, 07:28 AM

Most certainly Oz. I feel like there was much more to the character than people give credit for.

Jenny. I always loved Jenny. Poor, poor Jenny.

Drusilla for sure. With the (almost ridiculous) amount of back story we got with Darla (especially on AtS), I wish we could have gotten more Dru.

Ethan Rayne. In my opinion, one of the most underused characters in the verse. He really just served the purpose of a plot tool for "wacky hijinks that involve Giles" when he really could have had a more dramatic presence and depth of character.

Oh yeah, and Parker.

...no? Ok, that was a joke. :)

buffyholic

22-09-08, 01:26 PM

I´m not bothered about no more Drusilla backstory. It leaves much to the imagination, especially her with Angelus.

Tara and Oz deserved more development. At first, Tara was presented as sweet, naive but on S6 she started to step out on her own and I wanted more. Most of the time, she was just Willow´s girlfriend.
Oz was also interesting and exploring his werewolf instincts would have been great.

On Ats:
Wesley: It would have been cool to find out more about his childhood and how he was raised.
Fred: I just feel they could have done more about her.
Lilah: I would have loved to see how she became such a lovable bitch! I said it: she´s a bitch but we love her!

Retrograde

22-09-08, 03:16 PM

I definitely agree with all the people saying Anya. From a completely selfish point of view I think Oz's backstory would be good, but from a show perspective, Anya would definitely be the best to delve into her history. I mean, we saw a little in Selfless but it's not enough! Possibly some of her time as a human could be explored as well?

XavierZane

22-09-08, 06:42 PM

It would be cool to see more of Giles' past. We all know he was a rebellious youth, and it would be interesting to see what it was like for him to go back to the Watchers and his father humbled.

Darla, too, since she was one of the older characters on the show. And she was part of the early colonization of the Americas! How cool is that?

And, of course, Andrew!

bknick

22-09-08, 08:50 PM

Darla, too, since she was one of the older characters on the show. And she was part of the early colonization of the Americas! How cool is that?

Did you watch Angel? Cause seasons 2 & 3 make Darla almost a main cast member (at least in how much screen time and importance she receives).

Bubblecat

22-09-08, 09:31 PM

It wouldve also been nice if they explained what actually happened between him and Olivia. I know she was saying she didnt know if she could live around all the demons and what nots but what was really said?.

I totally agree Theresa - I would have loved to have had a little bit more of Olivia. I always wondered what her cameo in Restless was - with a upturned pram.

I would have liked to have known what The Guardians were all about. I mean, they came out of nowhere - very interested to know all about them!! Oh, and the Coven. Yeah, okay, my curiosities are a little out there!

Rowan Hawthorn

23-09-08, 02:14 AM

Tara. Kennedy. Oz. Giles and Willow, too, though they're both more than just secondary characters (the show always struck me as being nearly as much about Willow's journey as it was about Buffy's, yet we don't even know her birthday - possibly because she doesn't seem to place much importance on it.) Problem is, you can only spend just so much time exploring secondary characters until you push the main protagonists completely out of the picture.

XavierZane

23-09-08, 02:55 AM

Did you watch Angel? Cause seasons 2 & 3 make Darla almost a main cast member (at least in how much screen time and importance she receives).

Kinda. She received no more screentime than Anya or Giles. But we've seen very little of her life before the present, and only one scene that I can remember of her life before siring Angelus or before she was a vampire. That's what I would like to see.

hawkedup

23-09-08, 06:46 AM

I don't think you had to have an anybody centric episode. Cut two or three Buffy/Spike sex romps and show scenes where Buffy and Anya are hanging out together. It wouldn't have taken anything away from the Buffy/Spike storyline and would have added volumes to Anya and made her feel less periphery. (Not to mention, they would probably have been more fun and just plane old better television.) Instead of Riley/Buffy drama, show Riley and Tara scenes. The problem with the secondary stars of the show could have easily have been fixed with a few well placed scenes that the writers instead opted to fill with unneeded angst.

hawkedup

23-09-08, 06:48 AM

Also, Angel did a much better job with making recurring characters stand out in the foreground. Nobody was ignored.

Nina

23-09-08, 08:24 AM

doubleshiny

23-09-08, 04:35 PM

I'd like to have seen more of Warren, especially the things that happened after I Was Made To Love You, and more of his backstory. I think there's a cool origins story in there which we didn't get to see. I would have liked to have seen him making the Buffybot!

Weredog

24-09-08, 02:43 AM

Problem is, you can only spend just so much time exploring secondary characters until you push the main protagonists completely out of the picture.

Oh yeah, for sure, which is why I think it was very smart for Joss to have made a Willow-centric episode ("Doppelgangland") following a Buffy/Faith two-parter in season 3. Had they gone straight to "Enemies", I would've wondered if Willow still lived in Sunnydale. ;) But, fortunately, they didn't.

And I can understand that the writers feel limited with 22 episodes a season to present the main characters, the secondary characters, and the plot itself thoroughly. However, I would honestly take a character centric/standalone/whatmahcallit episode any day before a 'plot-centric' one like "Goodbye, Iowa", "Checkpoint"", "Spiral", "Never Leave Me", or "Bring on the Night".

Season 7 suffered a lot from 'plot-centric' episodes ("suffered" being a subjective term of course). I felt that season behaved too much like a movie -- where characters present who they are by the situation/predicament they're in (aka the plot). It works wonders for movies, whereas it doesn't necessarily work for television. The difference? Television has more than two hours. Which is perfect to develop intimacy between the viewers and the characters by having these character-centric episodes (ie. "The Dark Age", "Phases", "The Zeppo", "Earshot", "Family", "For for Love", "All the Way", "Normal Again"). Season 7, however, was all about exploring the characters through the plot ("Conversations with Dead People" straight to "Chosen"), and didn't take any breaks from it -- which consequently made it, er well, boring.

Season 8 Discussion:
"Time of Your Life" is a plot-centric episode, which is why I find it less interesting than "No Future for You" or "Wolves at the Gate". It's also why I'm uber psyched for "After These Messages..." because that one seems to be a Buffy-centric one. :) Nice!

vampmogs

24-09-08, 02:54 AM

I think season three had the right balance of "character-centric" episodes. We had 'Amends' focused on Angel, 'Dopplegangland' focused on Willow, 'The Zeppo' focused on Xander, 'The Wish' focused on Cordelia, 'Faith, Hope & Trick' focused on Faith, 'Helpless' focused on Buffy and Giles and then there was still room for the main arc which didn't suffer at all. Like you said we then had 'Enemies' 'Revelations' 'Bad Girls' 'Consequences' 'Choices' all focused on the Buffy/Faith dynamic.

It was the perfect blend in my opinion, everyone got their chance to shine without it sacrificing the main plot, I think the season was the tightest by far.

doubleshiny

24-09-08, 11:35 AM

I like the character centred episodes, the only problem is that by Season 4 there were so many characters that half the season would have been taken up by them.

Storyteller was a great episode because it managed to drive the story forward and be character centred at the same time.

buffyholic

24-09-08, 12:45 PM

I'm not sure. Yes, Angels team was more a team and not 3 friends with their love interests and the characters got more time because they were more than boy/girlfriend of [insert name] ... but Lorne never got much development, Gunn had not much to do until season 5 and Fred was not much until Illyria.

I agree. There were some characters that had little to do. Gunn was often pushed aside and he was the most interesting in S5. Lorne, most of the time, had nothing or little to do. I mean, what the hell did he do in S4?
I also feel Fred should have been more explored. I liked what they did with her, but I wanted more.

About Buffy, S5 is a season where every character has their journey, their development is amazing, mainly Spike, Willow and Buffy. But everyone was covered, from Dawn to Xander. I agree S3 also has a balance between character centric and plot, but S5 does that too. And I prefer S5.

MyPet

28-09-08, 06:30 PM

Anya, definitely. Maybe a bit more Tara exploration. I would have liked her to come back in visions or haunting to Willow in early S7, or as part of the coven energies in Grave. I would have liked to see her energies help Xander stop Willow - circle of life and all that.

Clem. I liked Clem and wanted to know more about him and why he was so good-natured for a demon. I guess he sort of took over the wacky neighbor role after Spike was promoted.

WC7

29-09-08, 01:56 PM

I'm pretty sure they would have taken Oz deeper into the series had Seth not wanted to go pursue other things in his career.

But hey, thanks to that we now have great works of art like... uhh... Robot Chicken!

Who am I kidding, I love Robot Chicken.

sueworld

29-09-08, 02:15 PM

Oh god so do I!

I hear he's going to be having a few Buffyverse characters turn up in one episode, judging by a press release that I saw online a while back.
Lest face it there's enough Sideshow figures out there of the cast he can 'play with'. :roll:

I also think If Seth had stayed that he would have had more story time and development. Oz was a great character which warranted exploring more.
Hopefully he'll get some of that in season 8 at some point.

assydingo

29-09-08, 03:10 PM

I loved Oz but I don't see him as a character that can go on forever. When he left it was perfect timing.

All of the trio could have been explored more. I'd say Amy but she's getting her chance in s8.

bknick

29-09-08, 08:55 PM

I think Oz most certainly had the potential for further character development. Just in what little we saw of him (although it might not seem like it because he was so laconic) he changed greatly in two years time.

In fact, I'm fairly certain that EVERY member of the trio got tons more story and screen time than Oz ever received.

Dark Ages

29-09-08, 10:45 PM

I would have to say Oz, Tara and my girl Jenny. Tey were all great characters. We saw a little glips of bacground from Tara and Jenny, but not really for Oz. His past was never explored, which sucks. Which is strange beacuse he was iin Buffy longer that Jenny, but we only found out about her being a gypsie. Tara was explored a little bit, but I would have liked to learn more about her mother.

eveee

30-09-08, 01:07 AM

Oz! Ohmahgawsh. We never explored his background and it would have been spectacular to have a episode revolve around him, and not Willow. I'm reading a book about Oz right now, and not Willow. Willow isn't even in it. And it is fantastic. ; )

I think there should have been more of Tara as well, but Oz more.

Weredog

30-09-08, 07:33 AM

Storyteller was a great episode because it managed to drive the story forward and be character centred at the same time.

Yup, I agree. It's very much the only exception to my whole "'Sleeper' to 'Chosen' was nothing but plot" claim. It explored Andrew's past and also presented his personal view on the war against the First. It's unfortunate that they didn't apply the "Storyteller" structure to all of the other characters. In other words, what did Xander think about this war brewing? Other than young girls having pillow fights in his living room...

And come to think of it, "The Killer in Me" was a Willow-centric episode. And I think I'm one of the few who actually enjoys that episode. Because it completely dealt with her finally accepting Tara's death and moving on. If there was another and separate episode focusing on Willow actually testing her magical limits post-Dark Willow would've been better instead of her saying "I dunno if I can do it... I get vainy...." in every other episode.

Come to think of it, I suppose there's Dawn's "Potential" which was character centric. But I'm one who despises that episode, because of its horrible storyline structure and dialogue. But that's a whole atta rant ;).

Saro49

30-09-08, 09:53 AM

I think that in terms of character driven seasons you can't go past Season Six. There weren't character themed episodes because everyones journey progressed together.

Also for those who say Fred is underdeveloped I have to say I disagree. We see all aspects of her and how she lost and gained the strength that she has by the end of the series.

EyeballKid

01-10-08, 01:43 AM

Also for those who say Fred is underdeveloped I have to say I disagree. We see all aspects of her and how she lost and gained the strength that she has by the end of the series.

I agree. And as much as I loved my Fred, I don't feel that she was ever under-represented.

Oh yeah, one add-on: Willy the Snitch!

WC7

01-10-08, 11:56 AM

vampmogs

01-10-08, 11:59 AM

Haven't a few of them done character voices in the past? I don't watch religiously, but I'm pretty sure I've seen SMG in the credits at some point.

Yup Sarah's guest starred I believe, at least twice. I know she's definitely had a role but I'm a little fuzzy on the exact number of times. But she's the only one as far as I'm aware, SMG and Seth have always been really close friends, before and after Btvs. That’s why they came together to the PaleyFest reunion.

buffyholic

01-10-08, 02:03 PM

I wanted to explore more of Xander´s family, explore those fears more. We see hints of his family and then in "Hells Bells" we see them personally. Poor Xander! but still, I wanted to see maybe more explanation as to why he has all those fears and insecurities.
In Ats, I wanted Lorne to be more explored, as well as Lilah. I absolutely love Lilah, such a ruthless bitch.

Zosimos

03-10-08, 06:20 PM

I would have liked seeing more of Jonathan; he didn't really have anything to do until 'Earshot', but it seemed like he was always around before that. It would have been interesting to see more of how he got into magic; aside from 'Superstar' and parts of season 6, we never got to know much about that.

colorthestars

03-10-08, 10:28 PM

Yup Sarah's guest starred I believe, at least twice. I know she's definitely had a role but I'm a little fuzzy on the exact number of times. But she's the only one as far as I'm aware, SMG and Seth have always been really close friends, before and after Btvs. That’s why they came together to the PaleyFest reunion.

Michelle Trachtenberg, Emma Caulfield, and Abraham Benrubi (Olaf) have all voiced characters in Robot Chicken in addition to SMG. :) And SMG played Buffy on the show once (just one of the many times she voiced characters).

As far as secondary characters, I would have like to see more Oz. We never really found out much about his life before he met the Scooby gang. Also, I would have liked to see more Devon. He was in the line of danger a few times because of the Scoobies. Does he explain away the weird creatures that he's come acrossed?

Bloodsucker

04-10-08, 01:41 PM

Just recently I remembered that there would have been another Scooby if not for unlucky chance - Jesse. He is a close friend of Willow and Xander's, gets bitten in the first episode, gets dusted int he second (if recall that correctly) - and then he's out of the story and never mentioned again. The strange thing is, he must have been an important part of the lives of Willow and Xander, as their friend, but he's just a casualty and hardly missed.
Maybe at least a bit of mourning for him later on would add some emotional depth to the first season (which wasn't as emotional for my taste as the later ones, and this is the reason why I liked the first season least). Moreover, it would be logical that he's mentioned again, like saying they help Buffy so Jesse will be avanged/something like this never happens again/whatever.

Any opinions? :)

vampmogs

05-10-08, 10:14 AM

Sosa lola

05-10-08, 01:47 PM

Apparently they were planning on having the First appear as Jesse to Xander in 'Conversations With Dead People' but scrapped the idea, a long with Xander in that episode as well :rolleyes:

Just more evidence to show what they could have done with the First, but didn't do...

I would have liked if The First appeared as Buffy to the Scoobies and tore them apart, it would have made Empty Places make more sense.

vampmogs

05-10-08, 02:34 PM

I would have liked if The First appeared as Buffy to the Scoobies and tore them apart, it would have made Empty Places make more sense.

Yeah that would have been great. It could have appeared as Buffy to Willow telling her that she never really will trust her again and it could appear as Xander playing on a lot of things that went on between the two of them. How he's useless, how he's never really helped her, how she could never love him, how she slept with Spike ect

Sosa lola

05-10-08, 04:18 PM

Yeah that would have been great. It could have appeared as Buffy to Willow telling her that she never really will trust her again and it could appear as Xander playing on a lot of things that went on between the two of them. How he's useless, how he's never really helped her, how she could never love him, how she slept with Spike ect

That would have made one dark, twisted episode! :D

Joyce's "She'll never choose you" will also be perfect if First!Buffy appeared to Dawn. Maybe First!Spike appearing to Dawn taunting her about how he tried to rape Buffy.

Enisy

05-10-08, 04:41 PM

I've told you before, guys: You should not be allowed to talk about the ways the First could have been improved as a villain. It's freakin' depressing.

Sosa lola

05-10-08, 09:02 PM

I've told you before, guys: You should not be allowed to talk about the ways the First could have been improved as a villain. It's freakin' depressing.

I agree. Now I'm just too depressed. :( S7 should have been made into two seasons. Too many bits were unsolved, too many issues unresolved. And a very lame big bad who had lots of potential to be the best big bad.

bknick

06-10-08, 06:58 AM

I agree. Now I'm just too depressed. :( S7 should have been made into two seasons. Too many bits were unsolved, too many issues unresolved. And a very lame big bad who had lots of potential to be the best big bad.

Check...22 more episodes of Buffy's motivational speeches.

buffyholic

06-10-08, 02:04 PM

Sosa lola

08-10-08, 07:46 PM

But remember, Joyce telling "She´ll never choose you" worked perfectly because Dawn was never able to trust fully in Buffy again. Dawn was the perfect target because she believed Joyce/The First. And I don´t agree with Jesse appearing as The First, because he only was in two episodes and we didn´t know him very much.

Jesse was the biggest reason for Xander's hate on vampires. It would've made a full circle to Xander's character if he appeared as The First.

When didn't Dawn trust Buffy? If you mean Empty Places, I've always seen it more about her disagreeing with Buffy's plan than not trusting her. I agree that Buffy seems to be choosing Spike over Dawn (like when she checked on him before Dawn in LMPTM and when she told Giles she'll sacrifice Dawn if the world depended on her death.)

DigitalLeonardo

08-10-08, 08:21 PM

I would have loved more of Tara's family. Maybe her and Willow going to her hometown? Or have her go to her hometown when she and Willow broke up. I think just some Tara time would have been really nice, cause we never get Tara, she is always with someone and had no story of her own except for "Family"

It was a bit upsetting.

buffyholic

09-10-08, 12:40 PM

vampmogs

10-10-08, 10:10 AM

sosa lola, in "Sleeper", when Buffy says that she´s gonna watch Spike, Dawn gives her a look of mistrust. Also, I think her resistance in telling that she saw "Mom", is also a sign. And also, "Potential" hurts Dawn too because Buffy is basically ignoring her in favor of the Potentials.

But then it's dropped and never raised again. When you give a big ominous message like that, it's only expected that the audience is going to be expecting something big from it, but we got nothing.

Theresa Marie86

27-10-08, 06:44 PM

YES!! I agree wholeheartedly! Jesse shouldve been mentioned,.. at least another time! Willow and Xander seemed very chummy with jesse.. Xander was all gunho to help save jesse how come on the rest of the six years of the show he is never to be mentioned again????

And I as well think that they should at least shown us the "coven" in which giles gets his powers from, and helps restore willow to her old self.

Has anyone mentioned Mr. Summers??? What do we know about him?? Bad father much? How canhe not know that his daughter is dead???? Ok buffy had a funeral and grave how can they hid her death from everybody( social workers, schools, parents) But back to the subject, how come you don't see Mr. Summers after say.. the third season? Second if i remember correctly? I think we shouldve see him way more, and sould know alittle more then nothing about him!