View Full Version : Connor? Who's Connor?
"Yes. Hi. You must be Angel's handsome, yet androgynous, son."
(OT; androgynous? it's not the word I would use to describe Connor or VK)
Well, Willow seemed not suprised at all when she met Connor. Nor did it look like she just heard of it ... so I would say that the scoobies were aware of Connor.
But it's not like there was any on screen contact between the teams between Connor's birth and Orpheus. So, did it happen off-screen or did it never happen and Willow found out about Connor when Fred called her.
XavierZane
19-09-08, 05:40 PM
Fred and Gunn probably called the Scoobs between Season 3 and Season 4, when they were looking for Angel and Cordy, and ended up explaining a few things.
hawkedup
19-09-08, 06:05 PM
Yeah. Androgynous? I think the writer's pulled one over there.
carousel_girl8
19-09-08, 06:07 PM
I would guess that Fred told her about it when she called to ask Willow to come to LA to try and re-ensoul Angel.
FRED
She has a fresh brain. I thought she might see some things
we missed.
WILLOW
Well, hearing the thoroughness of your research
methodology, I don’t think that’s possible.
It sounds like they were on the phone for a long time and so it is likely that it would have come up.
Sosa lola
19-09-08, 09:23 PM
Usually, Willow and Cordelia call each other, probably chatting about the going ons in Sunnydale and LA. Sweet how both girls who used to hate each other grew to be phone friends.
Cordelia was still Cordelia in S3, so it's probably her who told Willow that Angel had a son who disappeared and then appeared again as a teenager.
This has always annoyed me so much. I always assumed that Fred told Willow about Connor before asking her to come to L.A. but surely the writers should have given us something a little more substantial? It seemed like such a slap in the face to loyal Bangel fans.
Sosa lola
19-09-08, 09:49 PM
This has always annoyed me so much. I always assumed that Fred told Willow about Connor before asking her to come to L.A. but surely the writers should have given us something a little more substantial? It seemed like such a slap in the face to loyal Bangel fans.
Like I said, Willow and Cordelia tend to call each other from time to time, exchanging info about what's going on with their lives. I'm sure Cordelia had called Willow to tell her about Angel having a son, and that his son became a teenager after months of being vanished.
Like I said, Willow and Cordelia tend to call each other from time to time, exchanging info about what's going on with their lives. I'm sure Cordelia had called Willow to tell her about Angel having a son, and that his son became a teenager after months of being vanished.
Yeah, I know that we are supposed to assume something of the sort had happened. I also know that there was bad blood between the WB and UPN during Season Three of Angel and Season Six of BtVS, but crossovers were allowed later on. I just wish they had handled the situation somewhat differently and we could have seen something real instead of just being expected to assume that Cordelia or Fred had called to tell them about Connor. :)
Illyrian
20-09-08, 05:09 AM
But if everything had been explained fully, this thread wouldn't exist.
hawkedup
20-09-08, 07:20 AM
Well, they weren't very well going to talk about anything Angel related on Buffy. That would negate the whole redheaded step-child thing.
But one line on Ats would be enough, Cordelia, Wesley or Angel just needs to say that they did told the people in Sunnydale. Wesley could've called Giles to ask him if his books said anything more about a son of vampires. Cordelia could make a joke about Willows reaction when she told her about Connor ... anything.
Sosa lola
20-09-08, 12:54 PM
A line would have bee funny and a nice touch :D
Cordelia holding baby Connor: You wouldn't believe how Willow reacted on the phone. She went crazy on the babble. Makes you think how Buffy will react. *pointed stares at Angel*
Angel: Huh? Yeah. *distracting himself from the coversation by cooing to Connor."
watcher1006
22-09-08, 08:21 PM
Does this thread belong in the Buffy or the Angel section? Sort of both, I guess.
Willow did seem kind of secretive with Buffy in general about what she was doing when she got the call and was about to leave Sunnydale for L.A. I can imagine that Angel might not have wanted anyone but himself to break the news about Connor to Buffy and everyone who knew about Connor respected that. Faith could have also told Buffy about Connor when she came back to Sunnydale in "Dirty Girls" but she didn't.
I can imagine Willow would have worried about Buffy's reaction if she found out about Connor and the fact that Willow had withheld the information from her.
Of course by the time Angel finally saw Buffy in the last two episodes of the series the memory of him had been erased from everyone's mind - Willow's too I imagine. Isn't that right?
That's right, in 'Chosen' nobody knew who Connor was. But I would like to know if Angel just kept his mouth shut about his son for a year ... or that he told her. The first thing is a bit weird I think ... it's quite a big thing.
hawkedup
23-09-08, 06:50 AM
Don't forget the spell that made everyone forget Connor.
Also, didn't Joss say that in the original script Angel was going to tell Buffy about Cordy and Connor and stuff but then they remembered that Angel the Series was a redheaded step-child and shouldn't get more than a passing mention on Buffy?
Yeah, I did read that a well. But I'm not sure in which episode that was. I hope that this means that Angel did it anyway but off screen and that this doesn't mean that Angel kept it quiet.
vampmogs
23-09-08, 10:38 AM
Don't forget the spell that made everyone forget Connor.
Also, didn't Joss say that in the original script Angel was going to tell Buffy about Cordy and Connor and stuff but then they remembered that Angel the Series was a redheaded step-child and shouldn't get more than a passing mention on Buffy?
He said he didn't include it because there wasn't enough time for the final episode as it is, without bringing about all Ats related stuff on top of all the Btvs related stuff they had to cover. As much as I'd have liked to see it, I agree with him that it makes more sense to cover Btvs ground in the series finale over another show's mythology.
Wolfie Gilmore
23-09-08, 10:52 AM
"Yes. Hi. You must be Angel's handsome, yet androgynous, son."
(OT; androgynous? it's not the word I would use to describe Connor or VK)
Gosh, I would. Definitely has something androgynous about him in these pics:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a7/Connor.gif
http://www.gazillionmovies.com/Actor/V/Vi/Pictures/vincent-kartheiser.jpg
But it's not like there was any on screen contact between the teams between Connor's birth and Orpheus. So, did it happen off-screen or did it never happen and Willow found out about Connor when Fred called her.
I'm totally confused about who among the Scoobies knows what re Connor. I think there was a comic at some point that had Angel telling Dawn about Connor, but that wasn't canon anyway so...who knows. I'm guessing there was some communication. But then, with the spell to take away the memories... was that reversed for everyone or just the people nearby when the spell happened? If Buffy knew before, would she know again later (ie in season 8)?
watcher1006
23-09-08, 02:47 PM
He said he didn't include it because there wasn't enough time for the final episode as it is, without bringing about all Ats related stuff on top of all the Btvs related stuff they had to cover. As much as I'd have liked to see it, I agree with him that it makes more sense to cover Btvs ground in the series finale over another show's mythology.
It's funny, but if Angel HAD told Buffy about Connor she would have been in the position of knowing about his son and holding his secret from everyone else in Team Angel and her own Scooby Gang (save for the comatose Cordelia). It would have been a total reversal of the earlier situation. It might have reflected on how much Buffy meant to him if he had shared his secret with her but given all the emotional complications and so on that it would have entailed maybe it was the prudent thing to leave that out of the ending of BtVS. The episodes "End Of Days" and "Chosen" were packed full of action as they were (and rather rushed in my opinion.)
Why did they wait until the last episode to tell Buffy about Connor? That's 1,5 season after he was born ... it would make much more sense if Angel told her a week after his birth. But they would probably want to do this face to face on screen I guess.
Gosh, I would. Definitely has something androgynous about him in these pics:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a7/Connor.gif
http://www.gazillionmovies.com/Actor/V/Vi/Pictures/vincent-kartheiser.jpg
I would use 'boyish', VK looks very young for his age ... but not androgynous.
Btw; The last picture isn't his best ... :D
vampmogs
24-09-08, 02:57 AM
It's funny, but if Angel HAD told Buffy about Connor she would have been in the position of knowing about his son and holding his secret from everyone else in Team Angel and her own Scooby Gang (save for the comatose Cordelia). It would have been a total reversal of the earlier situation. It might have reflected on how much Buffy meant to him if he had shared his secret with her but given all the emotional complications and so on that it would have entailed maybe it was the prudent thing to leave that out of the ending of BtVS. The episodes "End Of Days" and "Chosen" were packed full of action as they were (and rather rushed in my opinion.)
I had never thought about that, good point. For some reason I always assumed she'd have forgotten like everyone else, but you're right, she would have been told *after* the spell had taken place and therefore would have been the only one aside from Cordy and Eve who did know.
buffyholic
25-09-08, 01:19 PM
Maybe Cordelia told her, I don´t know. I guess it´s one of those things secretive about the show. Since we don´t have hardcore info, all we´re doing is speculate about what happened.
Fred and Gunn probably called the Scoobs between Season 3 and Season 4, when they were looking for Angel and Cordy, and ended up explaining a few things.
I actually think it's more likely that they somehow got in touch with Willow and Giles in England.
First, I don't think that Cordelia told Willow about grown-up Connor, because at that point in Angel season 3 Cordelia was very much in her glowy style and generally fairly distracted. Not to mention Willow going Dark at the end of season 6. I think at the tail end of the season they would have been too busy to call and catch up.
Secondly, I think that Fred may have known about Cordelia's contact with Willow, and thought that a witch could help her locate Angel or Cordelia. Also connects to that scene in Buffy season 7 when Willow's looking through the earth and gets attacked by the first... or something. :)
vampmogs
26-09-08, 12:36 PM
I actually think it's more likely that they somehow got in touch with Willow and Giles in England.
First, I don't think that Cordelia told Willow about grown-up Connor, because at that point in Angel season 3 Cordelia was very much in her glowy style and generally fairly distracted. Not to mention Willow going Dark at the end of season 6. I think at the tail end of the season they would have been too busy to call and catch up.
Secondly, I think that Fred may have known about Cordelia's contact with Willow, and thought that a witch could help her locate Angel or Cordelia. Also connects to that scene in Buffy season 7 when Willow's looking through the earth and gets attacked by the first... or something. :)
Heh. Did anyone else just pick up on the fact that the season six/season seven period show Willow and Cordy's roles reverse? At the end of season three of Ats Cordy glows white, at the end of season six Willow goes dark. At the end of s4 of Ats Cordy's gone dark and dressed in black but at the end of season seven Willow's now glowing white. It's as if they're doing eachother in reverse. :err:
buffyholic
26-09-08, 01:02 PM
vampmogs, you´re right. I´ve never noticed that but it´s a cool detail.
This thing with Connor reminds of Dawn. Because Angel (while Angelus) in S4knows about Dawn. How? The monks made fake memories but Angel wasn´t in Sunnydale at the time. Does that mean that the monks implanted those memories on Angel, too? Guess we´ll never know!
I think that everybody who should know Dawn, got some extra memories. It would be weird when Buffy talked about Dawn in 'Forever' and Angel wouldn't know who Dawn was. It would be very dangerous if Hank, Angel ... etc. would come back and say that they never knew Dawn.
vampmogs
26-09-08, 01:48 PM
vampmogs, you´re right. I´ve never noticed that but it´s a cool detail.
This thing with Connor reminds of Dawn. Because Angel (while Angelus) in S4knows about Dawn. How? The monks made fake memories but Angel wasn´t in Sunnydale at the time. Does that mean that the monks implanted those memories on Angel, too? Guess we´ll never know!
Yeah if Angelus remembers Dawn than Angel would to. They wouldn't have given the memories to Angelus but not to Angel. Faith knew who Dawn was aswell but she wasn't in Sunnydale during the time of the spell either.
watcher1006
26-09-08, 03:48 PM
I agree, I always assumed the memory rewrites had to have affected everybody everywhere, regardless of where they were. The monks certainly had to rewrite Hank Summers' memory, wherever he may have been at the time they cast the spell (and he certainly doesn't seem to have been in Sunnydale.)
I regret that there wasn't time to show Dawn is more scenes with the characters from the early seasons of the series - her father, Angel, Faith, and so on. I would have been particularly interested to see more of what "history" there was between her and Faith, we only got a hint of that in S7 "Dirty Girls".
Yeah if Angelus remembers Dawn than Angel would to. They wouldn't have given the memories to Angelus but not to Angel. Faith knew who Dawn was aswell but she wasn't in Sunnydale during the time of the spell either.
Interestingly, the writers did play around with the idea of Faith not knowing who Dawn was when she returned to Sunnydale. I guess they just realized how complex things would get if Angel or more importantly, Hank came to Sunnydale and wouldn't know who she was. That would have been fun to watch (although, I'm sure it would be heart-wrenching to see Dawn have to deal with all of that).
And for the record, yes - I wish the writers had given us some small indication of the fact that Buffy knew of Connor's existence. He was Angel's son, after all, and Bangel fans (who, perhaps, didn't watch 'Angel' but still knew about Connor) deserved that much.
vampmogs
27-09-08, 01:51 AM
Interestingly, the writers did play around with the idea of Faith not knowing who Dawn was when she returned to Sunnydale. I guess they just realized how complex things would get if Angel or more importantly, Hank came to Sunnydale and wouldn't know who she was. That would have been fun to watch (although, I'm sure it would be heart-wrenching to see Dawn have to deal with all of that).
Nah, Faith and Dawn had met before, or at least they had memories of it. Faith says "the brats all women sized" implying she knew her when she was younger and Dawn calls Faith a "try to kill your sister type" implying they have memories of Faith trying to kill Dawn, probably season three/ season four. Most likely, the monks added in Dawn to when Faith held Joyce hostage and went for her with the knife.
Roses-r-Red
27-09-08, 04:56 PM
I think the Sunndydale crew did know about Conner. Willow doesn't seem at all taken aback when she meets him. I think we have to assume that Angel told Buffy at some point. My question is, in Season 5 and in the Angel comics, does Spike know about Conner? I can't remember how it played out?
About Spike knowing Connor;
On the last page of Spike:ATF #3, Connor comes into the picture and Spike thought is something like "It's Angel's kid". This is probably the spell W&H used to make it a known fact that Connor is Angel's son. Every person in LA just knows it when they see Connor. (Another punishment for Angel). I don't think that he knew it before that moment.
Nah, Faith and Dawn had met before, or at least they had memories of it. Faith says "the brats all women sized" implying she knew her when she was younger and Dawn calls Faith a "try to kill your sister type" implying they have memories of Faith trying to kill Dawn, probably season three/ season four. Most likely, the monks added in Dawn to when Faith held Joyce hostage and went for her with the knife.
I should have been more clear. I meant that the writers had initially planned out a whole storyline where Faith would return to Sunnydale and not recognize Dawn because she was away in L.A. when the monks did the memory-altering spell. I'm glad they realized that viewers would notice that since Angel knew who Dawn was when he returned to Sunnydale in 'Forever', Faith should, too.
vampmogs
28-09-08, 02:04 PM
I should have been more clear. I meant that the writers had initially planned out a whole storyline where Faith would return to Sunnydale and not recognize Dawn because she was away in L.A. when the monks did the memory-altering spell. I'm glad they realized that viewers would notice that since Angel knew who Dawn was when he returned to Sunnydale in 'Forever', Faith should, too.
Oh sorry I misunderstood. Really? I never knew that, do you have a link by any chance that'd be a great read? Where did you hear it, very interesting stuff :)
Oh sorry I misunderstood. Really? I never knew that, do you have a link by any chance that'd be a great read? Where did you hear it, very interesting stuff :)
This was revealed in an interview with one of the writers right after Chosen was aired, as far as I remember. I'll look for a link for you, Alex. I might even have that interview saved on my computer somewhere but it was way back in 2003, so I'll have to see if it's still there! :p
Nina -
Thanks for mentioning that! I don't read ATF a lot, so that was interesting to hear. It's funny that Spike would recognize Connor. They have never met and even if Cyrus Vail's orb hadn't broken, it shouldn't have made any difference.
vampmogs
28-09-08, 03:44 PM
This was revealed in an interview with one of the writers right after Chosen was aired, as far as I remember. I'll look for a link for you, Alex. I might even have that interview saved on my computer somewhere but it was way back in 2003, so I'll have to see if it's still there! :p
Sure no problem. I just thought it'd be a great read don't go out of your way or anything :) I'm just interested to know if they planned this for Faith returning in season seven or there'd be an idea to have her return earlier, perhaps in season six or five. Thanks anyway :)
Sure no problem. I just thought it'd be a great read don't go out of your way or anything :) I'm just interested to know if they planned this for Faith returning in season seven or there'd be an idea to have her return earlier, perhaps in season six or five. Thanks anyway :)
This was definitely planned for the Faith arc in Season Seven because the interview I read was almost entirely about that season. I remember that much clearly. :)
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