New Joss and Brad Meltzer Interview About Season 8 (Spoilers) [Archive]

KingofCretins

18-09-08, 11:31 PM

Joss and Brad Meltzer talked to MTV about where the season is going.

About the one-shot arcs, the characters involved are...

Harmony, then combinations of Buffy and Andrew, Kennedy and Satsu, Xander and Dawn, and Giles and Faith.

Joss talks about the major dilemma for Buffy coming out of her visit to Fray's time...

As the time-traveling “Time of Your Life” arc in Dark Horse Comics’ “Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Season Eight” wraps up, we’re going to start seeing a lot of the characters in the Buffyverse dealing with what’s in store in the future, and the question of whether Buffy’s activation of all the potential Slayers was a good thing.

“Is this like a ‘Terminator’ thing where we can change it?” Whedon asked. “Are things going to be like that in the future, or is it a ‘Terminator 3’ thing where we can’t change it? That’s the question. Can Buffy preserve the world she’s created, or is it going to come crashing down?”[/quote]

And, the most fascinating choice of phrase to me, by far, is something Brad Meltzer said...

[spoiler]“Buffy and Xander don’t need me for a new twist,” Meltzer said. “You love the characters already, because they’re terrific. My job isn’t to show you what’s not there, but what you’ve always seen before but never thought was there. I’m going to try my best not to screw it up too badly.”

Can I just have a fanboy flip out over that? "What you've always seen before but never thought was there"?

MTV Interview with Joss and Brad (http://splashpage.mtv.com/2008/09/18/joss-whedon-teases-return-of-oz-things-to-come-in-buffy-the-vampire-slayer-season-eight/)

hawkedup

18-09-08, 11:57 PM

Oh please. Well, at least I know I should stary looking for another series to replace Buffy on my subscriptions list.

Sosa lola

19-09-08, 01:30 AM

Wow, that sounds amazing! I think 2009 will be a fun year for S8, the actual story will start in #21 like I said. I can't wait for the ones with characters' opinions, all of them will be great. I'm amazed that Willow won't geta point of view of her own.

XavierZane

19-09-08, 01:53 AM

These combinations are just on the awesome side of perfect! I'm especially excited to see what business Buffy and Andrew have. Is it about Rome!Buffy? Simone? Spike? Or is Buffy just taking Andrew out to dinner because he was voted Employee of the Year?

About Meltzer's quote...sounds amazing, but I don't wanna get my hopes up too much. I'm like Buffy post Angel; my heart is fragile and can't take another beating.

Enisy

19-09-08, 01:59 AM

vampmogs

19-09-08, 02:03 AM

Nice interview;

At least now we know who the standalones will be on and it's good to see that we will see Buffy and... MORE GILES AND FAITH! :D :2party: Can't wait!

The Buffy/Xander thing was pretty interesting...

LaJaula

19-09-08, 02:43 AM

How much do I love Seth Green?

[Joss:] "I just saw Seth [Green], and I think I mentioned it to him. He’s the only cast member who actually reads the comics. He gets it, he loves them.”

“Let me be clear,” Green told MTV, “I love that character. I loved playing it, and I love Joss Whedon and his interpretation of it, so anything he sees fit to elaborate on with that character, I’m excited to see.”

Although I really hope that Oz's character is done well. As for the rest of it, I'm not really sure what to think. I'm glad to see the Giles/Faith issue, and I'm glad that we'll get to see Satsu again and she hasn't just dropped off the face of the planet. That gives me hope that Buffy/Satsu actually had some sort of a purpose. And I also think that the Xander/Dawn issue will probably give us a clear answer on whether or not they're 'going there'. It'll either be shippy, or obviously not, IMO.

The Buffy/Xander comment...well, it does seem very shippy to me, although oddly placed in the article. But... I hope that it isn't. I still think Xander's waaaay too good for Buffy, and I hope that they don't drag him through the mud and make him 'dark' for her. Actually, that'll be my second hope, and right now I'll cling on to the idea that if I squint, I can kinda see a friendship vibe that he's talking about. I never thought that they had such a strong friendship before, but after this issue, I'll definitely see it. ;)

Charles

19-09-08, 03:01 AM

Meltzer's comment...

It could be shippy or as I think it is, it's the tipping of the hand that Xander is indeed going to be playing the part of Dark Willow while Buffy plays the role of Xander.

In either case, it appears as though those five issues somehow revolve or deal with Willow since she's not mentioned in any of them yet it appears her storyline is the now taking precedence in the comics with the appearance of Snake lady.

XavierZane

19-09-08, 03:08 AM

I was thinking about the Buffy-Andrew team-up vis a vis Spike, too, but probably too good to be true.

About that Xander/Buffy quote, as I said on Whedonesque: Jeanty stated that, whoever it is that Xander's paired with, it's "more of a hookup [than a relationship]", so I'm not sure Xander/Buffy fans should be squeeing over the prospect. (But I still think it's more likely to be Dawn.)

With an Andrew and Buffy issue directly following a Harmony issue, I think the idea that Buffy has found out about Spike being alive isn't all that unlikely.

But Jeanty also said that Xander's hookup was coming soon, did he not? Meltzer's arc doesn't start for a year, and won't be ending until almost a year and a half from now. So I'm thinking Xander will get a bit of romance in the next few issues, and then what happens in Meltzer's arc will be separate.

...and there go my hopes, flying all upwards.

Matt

19-09-08, 08:27 AM

That's quite interesting, especially how Harmony gets her own issue completely to herself and the others have to share, but I'm guessing that Harmony does something to get herself into the spotlight as she's the only vampire who has their own issue?

Also, about the teaming up thing, Buffy and Andrew should be quite a duo from what we saw in Storyteller, or the end of it at least, I'm hoping Spike has nothing to do with it because there's ATF and then the Buffy comics and they seem miles apart and it would make sense for theirs to be about Simone, she was Andrew's operative.

Kennedy and Satsu should also be quite interesting, I'm guessing it says them together as they are going to meet and interact?

Xander and Dawn... as much as I want Bander it just seems like the perfect premise for a Xander/Dawn hook up, unless Dawn's still in centaur form, but that could still be done.

And I'm psyched that Faith and Giles are coming back, mostly the former, but it should be great anyway.

As for Brad Meltzer's quote, it's interesting and I can just imagine everybody's going to be overanalysing what's been there before.

Overall, the arc sounds brilliant, but I seriously can't wait to see the art work and what they're going to do on the cover of the TPB. I'm just so excited.

OkinawanSteel

19-09-08, 10:55 AM

FAITH AND GILES!!!

...and now for some composure.

Seeing more of those two was my main wish currently, so I'm very pleased about that. Xander and Dawn is good too, and Kennedy and Satsu is an interesting choice, that issue certainly has my curiosity.

Wolfie Gilmore

19-09-08, 10:56 AM

My favourite parts were the bit KoC mentioned re Buffy and Xander and, for maximum squee points Buffy and Andrew!....also glad to hear re Faith and Giles! Kennedy and satsu could be really really interesting two...two newly chosen, one who always felt she SHOULD be chosen...while, with Satsu, I feel we still have more to learn about how she views her slayerness. Not so interested in Xander and Dawn because I feel like we've had a lot of them already lately and I want to see Xander interacting with other characters...ooh, unless it's Dawn who winkles out the truth of the Bander that will happen...maybe?

Sacred Knight

20-09-08, 12:05 AM

Gahh, that Meltzer quote has now got my hopes up again...
I'm wondering now if this whole Xander/Dawn stuff is meant to throw us off. Their adventure will of course make them bond even more closely, but in a more sibling light rather than romantic which has been teased off-hand in dialogue. I would even wonder now if Buffy's feelings for Xander might be pushed out into the light of day perhaps by some act by Xander protecting Dawn.

I'd just hope that if they DO have plans for Buffy and Xander that nothing happens between him and Dawn. That just delves too much into soap opera territory for me and would really mess up the Buffy and Dawn relationship. I've only been growing to the idea of a Xander and Dawn romance if Buffy was off the table. But this new info makes it seem like that may not be.
Just idle musings of course but I blame the quote for getting my mind rolling on the subject again. :)

dinamo

20-09-08, 11:37 AM

I like the idea of Kennedy and Satsu in an issue, but I hope its not all about Willow and Buffy. I'm excited to have more on the secondary characters and maybe learn a bit more about them considering they've both played quite large roles with two major characters but we've learnt little about them as individuals.

Matt

20-09-08, 06:12 PM

Brad Meltzer's quote got me thinking that a Bander romance is on the cards, if you look at certain parts of the show with Buffy and Xander it kind of makes sense that there was always something there.

Starting in season 1 with Xander's crush on Buffy and the way Buffy reacted when she found out how Xander wanted her in The Pack (she wasn't exactly pushing him away), then he brought her back to life in Prophecy Girl.

Season 2 there's that dance in When She Was Bad, I know it was mostly a jealousy thing, but why him? Why did she choose him to dance with out of all the guys in the Bronze? Not to mention the numerous times she danced with him when he was in a relationship. Then how he hugged her in Phases, again a comfort thing, but I always felt there were some Bander chemistry in that. Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered is a given because of the spell, but if you look at the way he rejected her when she handed it to him on a platter speaks in volumes.

Season 3, the way he's the first of her friends she meets up with after being in LA and the way they're at each other's throats at the party. The way Xander wanted to help Buffy in Amends and with the Angel issue, may have also had something to do with his parents.

Mostly seasons 4-7 didn't have as many Bander moments because of the majority either Xander or Buffy were in a relationship, but occasionally, there was the "What Would Buffy Do?" speech in The Freshman, Buffy and Xander's conversation in Into The Woods, the way Buffy and Xander usually got paired to do stuff together and mainly the moment in End of Days where they're in the kitchen.

Even in season 8 there have been moments, like Buffy's dream where she and Xander are in some form of relationship with the kissing and the training room scene.

Enisy

20-09-08, 06:18 PM

Charles

20-09-08, 06:23 PM

Not only that, it would also effectively end or rapidly intensify the shipper wars which already destroyed the TV show(s) and are sinking this season as well.

plus it doesn't fit Joss's MO of torturing his characters for as long as possible in the name of drama.

I think Faith is a more likely candidate then Buffy at this point. I said so when that news first came out and I still think so.

KingofCretins

20-09-08, 07:43 PM

Here's the question -- did Meltzer use Buffy and Xander specifically on purpose, or was he just pulling character names out as examples of people we know?

If he chose them on purpose, everything after refers to them -- and the only thing that fits would be that either there was romantic love or lust there all along or some sort of seething antipathy there all along. And it can only be the latter if Joss Whedon has turned into a complete imbecile who never actually read any of the Buffy scripts in the first place.

If Meltzer was just using them at random, then the statements after refer to the overall dynamic between all the characters, and could mean just about anything.

But if it's about Buffy and Xander, it's either a tease of a romance or a sign that Joss has lost any sense of character continuity about these two.

Koos

20-09-08, 08:24 PM

Here's the question -- did Meltzer use Buffy and Xander specifically on purpose, or was he just pulling character names out as examples of people we know?
ese two.

He used them in the connection of wrapping off the seasonal arc, which also happen to started out with Buffy and Xander. To me, the war is against the Slayers and with that in particular against Buffy and Xander. Because they build up and lead the Slayer organisation. I don't think it was meant at all in terms of relationship, though I have to confess that it was also my first thought.

nester

20-09-08, 11:33 PM

This is the Meltzer who wrote Identity Crisis, correct? Yeah, I'm worried.:(

Sacred Knight

21-09-08, 03:21 AM

A user on another forum pointed out that, if Buffy and Xander were ever to hook up, it would be a major plot development, and not something that they'd telegraph so blatantly in an interview more than a year in advance. Which, true. It might just be weird phrasing on Meltzer's part.
I see the point, but on the other hand I don't think anything has been telegraphed blatantly here. Quite the opposite in the fact that his choice of words and the meaning behind it is even being debated at all. While intriguing, his word choice remains ambiguous so he hasn't really given away anything, just created buzz (either purposely or inadvertently) on what it is he's meaning here.

RuFio

22-09-08, 04:34 AM

Kennedy & Satsu. Hot Lesbians. Cannot wait to see this cover! :)

Phoenix

22-09-08, 07:39 AM

^ Lol ;)

yay faith :D cant wait to have more about her ^__^ 2009 looks like it will be an awesome year for Season 8!

Enisy

22-09-08, 08:57 PM

New Brad Meltzer interview (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2008/09/08/DI2008090801900.html) today. You can submit your own questions, too.

Enisy

22-09-08, 09:33 PM

Aaaaaaaaaaand update!

Washington D.C.: In your recent MTV comments,you made a statement about your upcoming Buffy arc.
"Buffy and Xander don't need me for a new twist," Meltzer said. "You love the characters already, because they're terrific. My job isn't to show you what's not there, but what you've always seen before but never thought was there. I'm going to try my best not to screw it up too badly."
Some fans are reading into it that there is a Buffy/Xander romantic pairing coming. Are these fans reading into your comments more than they should and were Buffy and Xander's names used as random examples? Also,what are your thoughts on past relationships such as Buffy/Angel, Buffy/Riley and Buffy/Spike?
Brad Meltzer: It was totally random. I could've just as easily said Willow and Buffy or any other 2 that you want to put together.

W00t. I still prefer Xander/Dawn as a concept. :)

Bubblecat

22-09-08, 09:37 PM

Aaaaaaaaaaand update! Brad Meltzer: It was totally random. I could've just as easily said Willow and Buffy or any other 2 that you want to put together.

Ah well - that's that then! Although, I actually think there are pointers to a possible hook up at some point. I wonder if this will made Brad think twice about randomly picking names out the hat!!

KingofCretins

22-09-08, 09:44 PM

That's if it's not him doing a great job of covering his own tracks :)

I'm okay with Xander/Dawn or Xander/Faith, but I still think Joss must be downright mean if he is going to have a set-up for an arc like that dream in 8.02 and then just never address the idea of romance between them.

Enisy

22-09-08, 10:14 PM

Here are the Buffy-related bits (be sure to check the whole interview, though, 'cause of the awesome):

What can you tell us about what you're working on for the big Buffy finale? (Obviously, Joss would kill you if there were spoilers, but surely there's -something- you can say)
Brad Meltzer: It's gonna be good. (How's that for totally useless information?) In truth, the hardest part of talking about this is because I'm at the end, the only information I have spoils everything. And when you take the blook oath to work on Buffy, you don't cross the blood. (Kinds like in Ghostbusters when you can't cross the streams.)

In your recent MTV comments,you made a statement about your upcoming Buffy arc.
"Buffy and Xander don't need me for a new twist," Meltzer said. "You love the characters already, because they're terrific. My job isn't to show you what's not there, but what you've always seen before but never thought was there. I'm going to try my best not to screw it up too badly."
Some fans are reading into it that there is a Buffy/Xander romantic pairing coming. Are these fans reading into your comments more than they should and were Buffy and Xander's names used as random examples? Also,what are your thoughts on past relationships such as Buffy/Angel, Buffy/Riley and Buffy/Spike?
Brad Meltzer: It was totally random. I could've just as easily said Willow and Buffy or any other 2 that you want to put together.

How do you and the other writers of Buffy Season-8 ensure continuity and direction of the overall season while still preserving the flexibility to be creative within your own episode/arc? I.e., how do you know what teasers to plant in YOUR episode(s) to set the stage for later episodes? (Example: the whole "Dark Willow" mystery...)
Brad Meltzer: Make no mistake, Joss is the one driving this bus. His hands are, thankfully, always on the wheel.

Of what nature is the biggest surprise/twist in your arcs? (Plot-related? Relationship-related? Character-related?)
Brad Meltzer: The same as in every one of my novels: a mix between plot and character.

Favourite "Buffy" character(s)? (From the televised series and/or Season 8.)
Brad Meltzer: Favorite character from the TV series, always loved Willow transforming like Dark Phoenix over all those years.

Favourite episode from the "Buffy" televised series? Favourite arc from "Buffy: Season 8" so far?
Brad Meltzer: Favorite episode from the TV series -- it's so cliche to say, but the music episode still beats the pants off everything. Look at how many people have ripped it off.

- Are we going to find out whether Buffy knows Spike is alive in this season? (If you could give us a hint as to "sooner" or "later", too...)
- Will you be joining us for Season 9, as well?
Brad Meltzer: As to the last 2 questions, ask Joss. He'll tell you right now.

Brad Meltzer: Let me just say the most important thing again. Thank you for what you all have done for me in supporting these books, comics, Buffys, and Jack & Bobbys. More than any other time, this book tour has taught me just how many people are pulling for us from so many different places. It means more than I can express.

tiger_fan

23-09-08, 12:14 AM

Wow well I think that just ruined my day. I already had told myself that his choice of words for that BX part was probably just random, prepared myself because, well, after hoping for something more for the last 11 years, you know the word disappointment well, and yet seeing it denied in print still hurt. Does every time.

Sacred Knight

23-09-08, 01:29 AM

Enisy

23-09-08, 01:32 AM

Sacred Knight

23-09-08, 01:45 AM

Yeah, that's definitely a point. Its just with Xander off with Dawn right now I'd think that'd be the initial example to use. Don't get me wrong, I'm not totally dismissing he's not on the straight and narrow here and he was just being completely random. Far be it from me to not acknowledge I could very well just be seeing what I want to see, so to be fair I'm already biased. On the same token however the interview really does nothing to dispel the idea of anything happening in the Buffy/Xander realm in the future, so I'll cling to the possibly fruitless hope for now till its ground into dust. :)

Enisy

23-09-08, 01:48 AM

Same applies for me, really. :) And I actually like Xander/Buffy as a concept, so it's not I will commit fandom suicide if it happens; I just happen to prefer Xander/Dawn at the moment.

KingofCretins

23-09-08, 02:04 AM

For the same reason that the official Season 8 summaries mention Buffy and Xander in the same sentence, but not Willow or Dawn? The Scoobies are kinda splintered at the moment.

The splintering would actually be more reason to diversify, or generalize, when talking about an arc later in the season -- unless we're to assume that none of those problems between different Scoobies are going to be solved.

Yeah, that's definitely a point. Its just with Xander off with Dawn right now I'd think that'd be the initial example to use. Don't get me wrong, I'm not totally dismissing he's not on the straight and narrow here and he was just being completely random. Far be it from me to not acknowledge I could very well just be seeing what I want to see, so to be fair I'm already biased. On the same token however the interview really does nothing to dispel the idea of anything happening in the Buffy/Xander realm in the future, so I'll cling to the possibly fruitless hope for now till its ground into dust. :)

There's a lot of potential with Xander/Dawn, but it just lacks the substance of a romance between Buffy and Xander. Narratively speaking, though, it's a number two, second best in terms of having lots of story that it brings. While Xander/Faith or even Xander/Willow have good story about *them*, they wouldn't, by comparison, affect the story of as many other characters at the same time as themselves. But, maybe Joss wouldn't worry about that -- Buffy/Spike in Season 6 was basically a two character story until "Entropy" and "Seeing Red", and was basically a two character story after that except for "Lies My Parents Told Me". So, who knows where this Xander hook-up or relationship might go.

tiger_fan

23-09-08, 07:04 AM

I don't quite buy it. I lean towards the idea that he was covering his tracks, just because if his comment was intended to be random and encompass the general relationships of all the main cast, why the need to break it down to two specific characters in the first place? Even in his response he continues to perpetuate a two character dynamic.

I wish that were true. Maybe it is. It would surprise me to learn that the writers sometimes said things to cover their tracks. But at this point, I don't think that's going to be the case or at least not this story arc of his.

For the first time in my time of being a fan of Buffy (Which is going on now, what, 12 years?) I'm starting to feel my hope for this show/book slipping away. My BX hope, my Xander hope, for Buffy, for other characters. And that's saying something, because I've always held out hope. Even when I didn't like the characters very much and things were so dark and not very hopeful at all, a small part of me was still chugging on. Still holding onto a whisp of hope.

But now... I don't know if its slipping away or if I've just come to the realization that these characters just aren't destined for what I find hopeful. That Xander, just may never be good enough for anything above the C-story line. Or that Buffy will ever find happyness. It just seems these characters will always be on a course of darkness and solitude.

Sorry for the woah-is-my-character/ship rant. I just wanted to get that off my chest and it seems all my old buffy friends either jumped ship a long time ago or don't like the comics and don't read them. :err:

There's a lot of potential with Xander/Dawn, but it just lacks the substance of a romance between Buffy and Xander. Narratively speaking, though, it's a number two, second best in terms of having lots of story that it brings. While Xander/Faith or even Xander/Willow have good story about *them*, they wouldn't, by comparison, affect the story of as many other characters at the same time as themselves.

See I don't know. I just see X/D as another, oh we don't know what to do with these characters so lets stick them together thing. If he's not going to get with Buffy and definitely not Willow now, than how about Dawn? Buffy and Willow have their storyline with FDW and the badness coming, but I don't really see how Xander and Dawn will play into that much other than reaction. I do wonder if Xander will have to pick a side eventually. If it comes down to Buffy vs Willow. Maybe that could be a good s/l, but i'm not really holding my breath for it.

And other than Buffy and Willow having a reaction to D/X being together or a hookup, I don't see it really effecting things in the grand scheme of things. Especially, if its only a hookup.

Skippcomet

23-09-08, 07:44 PM

But now... I don't know if its slipping away or if I've just come to the realization that these characters just aren't destined for what I find hopeful. That Xander, just may never be good enough for anything above the C-story line. Or that Buffy will ever find happyness. It just seems these characters will always be on a course of darkness and solitude.

Sorry for the woah-is-my-character/ship rant. I just wanted to get that off my chest and it seems all my old buffy friends either jumped ship a long time ago or don't like the comics and don't read them. :err:

See I don't know. I just see X/D as another, oh we don't know what to do with these characters so lets stick them together thing. If he's not going to get with Buffy and definitely not Willow now, than how about Dawn? Buffy and Willow have their storyline with FDW and the badness coming, but I don't really see how Xander and Dawn will play into that much other than reaction. I do wonder if Xander will have to pick a side eventually. If it comes down to Buffy vs Willow. Maybe that could be a good s/l, but i'm not really holding my breath for it.

And other than Buffy and Willow having a reaction to D/X being together or a hookup, I don't see it really effecting things in the grand scheme of things. Especially, if its only a hookup.

I can definitely understand this. Back when the first few pages of #1 were previewed, I was shocked that Xander was included at all, to say nothing of him having a fairly important role in the new Slayer organization (much to the consternation and ire of fans who thought that Buffy should have held Xander in contempt because they did and those who claimed "feminist issues" because they believed the new Slayer organization should have been been run exclusively by, if not Slayers, than at least women). I remember when Scott Allie referred to the "post-Faith" arc over at the Dark Horse site as being a "Xander-centric" arc that would take place in Tokyo. I remember being really excited by that.

Well, I guess we all know how that worked out.

The death of Renee has affected Xander and the story pretty much the same way Caleb driving his superstrong thumb into Xander's eye affected it. Immediate shock value and brief acknowledgment that Xander has been affected have given way to the always-inevitable mantra of, "the needs of the plot outweigh the needs of the characters." It may be conveniently "mature" for Xander to not sink into depression or let it interfere with his duties as a Slayer Traffic Controller or whatever...but it's also remarkably consistent with Joss and the writers' demonstrated history of placing Xander's role, emotional needs, or development dead last. Those who were or are expecting a Wesley-esque "slide into darkness" or any of the accompanying emotional depth, character exploration, or even just superficial "badassery" will most likely be disappointed. Those expecting Xander to somehow take sides against Buffy and become the villain will be disappointed. Joss has locked Xander permanently into the role of "emotional support" for Buffy, Willow, Dawn, etc., and he won't let anything get in the way of that, including giving Xander an A-level plot or subplot, expanded characterization, or a romantic relationship with a more-than-tertiary character of any real importance or depth. (To be honest, if Emma Caulfield had told ME "no" or gotten a better job offer back before Season 4 began production, I think Joss and ME would have written Xander/NB out of the show altogether.)

And I agree that a "Dawn/Xander" pairing would only be a "we don't know what else to do with them" type of development. Then again, I don't see anything of the sort being set up anyway. I never saw any set-up between them in "Anywhere But Here" (I saw Xander being grossed out by the realization he was in contact with GiantDawn's magically Gianted "frilly things"), and the "don't you know how great you look" line to CentaurDawn was immediately undercut by the very next line about how she's now a "creature of myth and legend." And no, I saw no signs of him backtracking to cover up any alleged slip of the tongue about any alleged attraction to Dawn. Despite Jo Chen's well-done cover of CentaurDawn, the only three pages of #18 with Xander and Dawn were spent introducing the Wooden Torches, not furthering any Xander/Dawn setup. Frankly, I think folks are focusing too much on shipping in general.

KingofCretins

23-09-08, 08:11 PM

(To be honest, if Emma Caulfield had told ME "no" or gotten a better job offer back before Season 4 began production, I think Joss and ME would have written Xander/NB out of the show altogether.)

I don't think they make it seven seasons if they do that, frankly. Season 6 especially would have circled the drain without Xander in it -- he was sort of the anchor to the "Gang vs. Real Life" arc, because he was the common denominator of the central issues. He was obviously significant to Willow's arc, seeing as he brought her back, but he was also right there as the audience stand-in for "how do I deal with my best friend's problem". His eventually heated disagreement with Buffy and reconciliation was sort of the iconic moment of these people all realizing their interdependence. His personal screw-up arc was by far the most relatable between the main characters. And, of course, him being able to stop Willow without any powers is the only way to pay off the "Gang vs. Real Life" premise.

No matter how underwritten he was, there's simply no way to argue that he was the groundwire for the entire show. It would have spun out into excess and soapish self-indulgence without Xander starting about halfway through Season 5.

And I agree that a "Dawn/Xander" pairing would only be a "we don't know what else to do with them" type of development. Then again, I don't see anything of the sort being set up anyway. I never saw any set-up between them in "Anywhere But Here" (I saw Xander being grossed out by the realization he was in contact with GiantDawn's magically Gianted "frilly things"), and the "don't you know how great you look" line to CentaurDawn was immediately undercut by the very next line about how she's now a "creature of myth and legend." And no, I saw no signs of him backtracking to cover up any alleged slip of the tongue about any alleged attraction to Dawn. Despite Jo Chen's well-done cover of CentaurDawn, the only three pages of #18 with Xander and Dawn were spent introducing the Wooden Torches, not furthering any Xander/Dawn setup. Frankly, I think folks are focusing too much on shipping in general.

As a Buffy/Xander fan and still hoping for that 'ship, I find it strange to defend Xander/Dawn, but I will. First of all, people were talking about this notion as far back as Season 7, some even back in Season 6. It is hardly novel or contrived as a Season 8 idea. The writers even used it as a joke in "All The Way" when Buffy thought Xander meant to marry Dawn.

I didn't interpret Xander as "grossed out" in "Anywhere But Here". In fact, that seems like an almost implausible reading. He was embarrassed to have been literally rolling around in Dawn's lingerie, talking about how soft it is, and did what a gentleman does, completely disavow any such awkward notion. It was a total call back to "Daddy Like", which was far from Xander being "disgusted" by Dawn.

With things like the lines in 8.16 and 8.17 -- the visual context isn't accidental in a comic book. Showing Dawn *reacting* to "how great she looks" before she clarifies has inherent meaning -- it's there to confirm how she heard it. And the "ride me" joke speaks for itself. That's innuendo by definition, and I've heard that that joke alone was the biggest reason Joss turned Dawn into a centaur instead of something else.

And, yes, it might appear that people are too focused on 'shipping here. However, we have the actual spoiler about Xander having some 'shippy stuff coming up.

EDIT: Another "visual context" point -- Dawn is giving Xander a rather smirking, knowing look when he runs from "the frilly" in "Anywhere But Here". She certainly hasn't taken it as a man being genuinely disgusted by having been wrapped up in her giant underwear.

sueworld

23-09-08, 08:18 PM

That's innuendo by definition, and I've heard that that joke alone was the biggest reason Joss turned Dawn into a centaur instead of something else.

Really? Thats appalling. :s So her role is basically nothing more then a walk on 'pesto chango' series of visual gags?

KingofCretins

23-09-08, 08:24 PM

Sue, I think it's a stretch to take that idea and infer then that Dawn's transformations have no significance to her own character or the events around her. But whether that story's her personal growth, her being seen as an adult, building a romance with Xander, or whatever Joss' purpose is, he could have chosen any number of forms for after she became a giant. Centaur was just the one with the funniest joke built-in.

sueworld

23-09-08, 08:29 PM

Sue, I think it's a stretch to take that idea and infer then that Dawn's transformations have no significance to her own character or the events around her.

Well I hope the payoff is gonna be good, because so far Dawns story arc (if there is one of course) has been the most disappointing for me. Apart from doing her 'Hulk smash' routine she's been woefully underused so far.

Curiouswolf

24-09-08, 12:31 PM

I think Dawn's arc is mostly jokey filler. The only important thing is her relationships with Kenny and Nick and how they relate to main arc or theme.

Any hookup that Xander has this late in the season will have horrific or tragic implications. Georges Jeanty gave away the hint so it must be introduced in the upcoming arc since I don't think he knows everything far in advance. It has to be either Dawn, Harmony, Faith, a Twilight agent such as Saga Vasuki or Lt. Molter, or someone new who shows up in issues #21-25. I'll be reading these comics with interest for clues.

sueworld

24-09-08, 12:36 PM

I think Dawn's arc is mostly jokey filler.

I do hope not. It would be such a terrible waste of a good character in my eyes at least. :(

She seems to be stuck in 'limbo land' rather at the moment, with none of her actions being all that vital to the main plot or other characters, so I hope that after all these daft transformations we get some kind of satisfying payoff for her.

Matt

24-09-08, 08:23 PM

I hope Dawn's arc isn't just to fill in her part too, if that were the case why even have her in season 8? Why not just explain her disappearance as being at University? Which is one of the reasons why I think there's an underlying issue with the whole Dawn thing, which is likely to be resolved in either 8.26-30 or 31-35, I'd say the latter because you don't know how long Dawn was a giant for originally before season 8 started and that it took her 16 issues to change into the second "Trimester" of her magical state, so it looks set to take just as long to be resolved fully or for her to change again.

vampmogs

25-09-08, 02:47 AM

Dawn's been vital to the characters this season, I don't think you guys are giving her the credit she deserves. She beat down Amy in 'The Long Way Home' she took down "mecha Dawn" and semi-led the slayer army in 'Wolves At The Gate' and saved Xander's life in 'Time of Your Life.' In terms of what she's been shown to do, she's pure class.

As to wether or not she has a story, well yeah, I think she does. A few speculated that “Thricewise” means three stages and they were right, it’s been confirmed now by either Joss or Allie. Which means Joss knew from the beginning Dawn would have three different stages of transformation, to me, that signals he also knows how this is going to end and why she went through these stages.

RuFio

25-09-08, 04:34 AM

Matt

25-09-08, 01:55 PM

Dawn's been vital to the characters this season, I don't think you guys are giving her the credit she deserves. She beat down Amy in 'The Long Way Home' she took down "mecha Dawn" and semi-led the slayer army in 'Wolves At The Gate' and saved Xander's life in 'Time of Your Life.' In terms of what she's been shown to do, she's pure class.

Exactly, she's intergral to the plot at the moment, as are the changes. If Dawn had been regular Dawn she wouldn't have been able to take down Amy or Mecha-Dawn and it's doubtful she would've been able to save Xander's life in TOYL either.

But, I definitely think that her changes are a lot more important than providing deux ex machina to help carry the plot along.

Enisy

25-09-08, 02:03 PM

If Dawn had been regular Dawn we wouldn't have had Mecha Dawn in the first place, which would have been a blessing. :rolling:

Matt

25-09-08, 02:13 PM

If Dawn had been regular Dawn we wouldn't have had Mecha Dawn in the first place, which would have been a blessing. :rolling:

Yeah, we would've had regular sized Mecha-Dawn instead.

Sosa lola

26-09-08, 01:58 AM

If Dawn had been regular Dawn we wouldn't have had Mecha Dawn in the first place, which would have been a blessing. :rolling:

If Dawn had been regular Dawn, she'd have been in college. And Joss can't have that. (to be honest, I wish he found another way to keep Dawn around. The Dawn arc is my least fave in S8.)

vampmogs

26-09-08, 09:10 AM

If Dawn had been regular Dawn we wouldn't have had Mecha Dawn in the first place, which would have been a blessing. :rolling:

Mecha Dawn as no more absurd than "Buffy Bot" or "Ted." But in my opinion, a hell of a lot funnier.

In fact I’d say the Mecha Dawn was more believable because it looks like one giant rust bucket, whereas the Buffybot and Ted were too terminatory for my tastes. Love them both but I always found the idea of robots in the Buffyverse silly, it’s a supernatural world not a technology superior world.

Enisy

26-09-08, 09:44 AM

Mecha Dawn as no more absurd than "Buffy Bot" or "Ted."

At least the Buffybot and Ted got their specifics from Spike and, well, Ted, respectively. How the heck would the baddies in Wolves at the Gate know Dawn's personality well enough to replicate it and make fun of it? :rolling: I sympathise with those people who said that their brain explodes into a fit of giggles whenever they try to fit that and Xander's year with Dracula into canon.

I get the impression that Season 8 is so polarizing that the pro- party feel like they have to overcompensate with their praise, and defend every. single. aspect of it, no matter how absurd or cracktastic it is.

vampmogs

26-09-08, 09:57 AM

At least the Buffybot and Ted got their specifics from Spike and, well, Ted, respectively. How the heck would the baddies in Wolves at the Gate know Dawn's personality well enough to replicate it and make fun of it?

The same way they knew exactly where the scythe was in the castle? Knew to take out Willow ect? Research. Not only did they have Kumiko, a powerful witch but someone who's tied to Savuki, someone who Willow is also *very* closely tied to, but it's also very possible that they got the information off of Twilight, exactly the same way Roden and Gigi got footage and info on Buffy from him.

I get the impression that Season 8 is so polarizing that the pro- party feel like they have to overcompensate with their praise, and defend every. single. aspect of it, no matter how absurd or cracktastic it is.

Nah I think the majority of us are just sick of people having complete and utter double standards about the season in comparison to all the others before it. Robots are "crack" in season eight, but robots made to look exactly like human replicas are somehow ok if it's in a televised season.

You can believe the fact that somehow Warren and Ted have jumped, years and years and years ahead in terms of the advancement of technology to the point they can replicated the skin, the voice, the movement, everything we saw in the Buffybot and Ted, but you can’t believe the vampires got info on Dawn from two pretty likely sources, Twilight or Savuki?

One who’s a teacher of one of the vampires, the other who’s agenda is almost exactly the same as the vampires and has been shown to not only know personal details about Buffy but to hand out personal details and footage of her as well?

Mecha Dawn was hillarious but absurd, but no more absurd than Buffybot or Ted and no one calls them "crack." I was never defending it, I said quite clearly that I don't like the idea of robots in the Buffyverse.

sueworld

26-09-08, 11:56 AM

Mecha Dawn was hillarious but absurd

Sadly I just found it an unfunny embarrassment myself.

All Seemingly set up for one sight gag and one line from Andrew. Yes, Robots in the verse may be 'crack' but I suppose for me anyway it's the use of them that counts. In Ted it was played far more subtle and in comparison and was there as an integral part of the plot, not just for one 'gag'. The same with Warrens 'bot's. Rachael was there as a metaphor about womens role in relationships and I think in that respect worked very well however daft the premise may have appeared on the face of it.

But hey, as you say it all boils down to personal preferences in the end.

vampmogs

26-09-08, 12:19 PM

I guess it depends on how you look at it really. Despite just being a fun humorous moment for ‘Wolves At The Gate’ which in itself was meant to be a rather humorous arc most of the time, it also represents something very real and important for her character.

In my opinion what season eight has done really well for Dawn despite the uncertainty of where her arc is heading, is in showing her as a mature, worthy, vital member of the team. And it’s done this by literally accepting all the flaws her character had and giving them form, making them physical and making her *literally* overcome them. It started from ‘The Long Way Home’ when Xander is suspicious that Dawn may have made herself as a giant to be noticed. It’s something she’s always dealt with, “I’m not real,” Dawn always feel’s absent and neglected. So what happens to her? She becomes a giant, she can’t help but be noticed. Even Buffy says it, “but that’s so.. Literal?” But instead of being the whiney moping Dawn that we see first in ‘The Long Way Home’ and we’re more accustom to, she overcomes it, she sucks it up and used her situation to her advantage, she beats down Amy and helps save the slayers.

Her second transformation into the “ass” represents that side of her personality, but again she uses it to her advantage and Xander asks her to find a “non whiney way to deal with this” and she does, saving his life in the process.

I think ‘Mecha Dawn’ only continued the trend really, and although it’s escaped me whom actually said this, it might have been Stormwreath, I’ve seen it mentioned before that “Mecha Dawn” symbolised Dawn’s personality traits and *literally* showed her overcome them. Despite being a humorous caricature of her character, it also literally took all the complaints the fans have had about her character since her appearance in season five, gave them form, and literally showed her defeat and overcome those things. She tore the head off that side of herself and in doing so she destroyed all of the immature parts of her personality, she became a woman.

There’s nothing better than seeing a character face to face with something showing her what he or she can be like and having that character fight back and overcome it.

Enisy

26-09-08, 12:45 PM

Were we seriously supposed to dig for metaphors and deeper meaning in Mecha Fricken Dawn? 'Cause if we were, that probably makes it an even clumsier invention than if it were only played for laughs (since 99% of the readers apparently didn't "get" it, myself included).

The same way they knew exactly where the scythe was in the castle? Knew to take out Willow ect? Research. Not only did they have Kumiko, a powerful witch but someone who's tied to Savuki, someone who Willow is also *very* closely tied to, but it's also very possible that they got the information off of Twilight, exactly the same way Roden and Gigi got footage and info on Buffy from him.

Okay... why?

The "backstage" reason is the funny, for whoever may see it. What's the textual reason?

vampmogs

26-09-08, 12:57 PM

Were we seriously supposed to dig for metaphors and deeper meaning in Mecha Fricken Dawn?

Ah if we want to? Just because you have no interest in searching for deeper meanings it doesn't mean others can't.

'Cause if we were, that probably makes it an even clumsier invention than if it were only played for laughs (since 99% of the readers apparently didn't "get" it, myself included).

Please don't speak for everyone. Nor you or I know what 99% of the readers thought or concluded from that season.

Okay... why?

The "backstage" reason is the funny, for whoever may see it. What's the textual reason?

They didn't create a robot with the intention of making fun of Dawn, that's the joke for the audience. They created a robot to match up with Dawn, they made their own Dawn. The vampires weren't sitting there giggling "lets make fun of her blue pants" then just ran through some very basic observations about her character to make their own version of Dawn. It's funny for the audience, it wasn't meant to be funny for them.

That's like asking for a textual reason as to how Warren managed to create a voice identical to Buffy's. You can come up with your own conclusion, it doesn’t have to be literally spelled out to you because it’s not important to the story. Mecha Dawn wasn’t the centre of ‘Wolves At The Gate’ so why would anyone expect a whole back-story on it? It’s not hard to come up with very plausible and likely theories ourselves and is hardly something that’s gonna effect the season as it continues. The show does that all the time, how did Spike get to Africa on a motorbike ect?

Enisy

26-09-08, 01:08 PM

Please don't speak for everyone. Nor you or I know what 99% of the readers thought or concluded from that season.

Ah, but I know what I've assessed from reading the Wolves at the Gate reviews here, on Whedonesque, on SA, on IDW, on CDS, etc.

That's like asking for a textual reason as to how Warren managed to create a voice identical to Buffy's. You can come up with your own conclusion, it doesn’t have to be literally spelled out to you because it’s not important to the story. Mecha Dawn wasn’t the centre of ‘Wolves At The Gate’ so why would anyone expect a whole back-story on it? It’s not hard to come up with very plausible and likely theories ourselves and is hardly something that’s gonna effect the season as it continues. The show does that all the time, how did Spike get to Africa on a motorbike ect?

You've asked me for two "how"s, I've asked you for a "why". The former has more to do with the mechanics of a supernatural universe, so it's not hard at all to extrapolate. The latter has more to do with plot and characterization, so it makes a whole lot of zero sense. :)

vampmogs

26-09-08, 01:44 PM

You've asked me for two "how"s, I've asked you for a "why". The former has more to do with the mechanics of a supernatural universe, so it's not hard at all to extrapolate. The latter has more to do with plot and characterization, so it makes a whole lot of zero sense. :)

Why what? Why did they build a Mecha Dawn? To combat Buffy's own super giant sister. Why did they have her say those things? Because they created their own Dawn and put a bunch of random statements in they gathered from observing Dawn? Remember it wasn't funny to them only to us as a reader because it's poked fun at what we've observed. I don't understand what you're asking the two questions seem pretty basic to me?

Enisy

26-09-08, 01:52 PM

Because they created their own Dawn and put a bunch of random statements in they gathered from observing Dawn? Remember it wasn't funny to them only to us as a reader because it's poked fun at what we've observed.

This is my brain, exploding into fits of giggles trying to find some (Earth) logic in this. :) More power to you if you can, although the reviews I read were rolling their eyes and facepalming right along with me.

Sosa lola

26-09-08, 02:18 PM

Xander's year with Dracula into canon.

That's not so hard to fit into canon. Dracula had kidnapped Xander and put him under his thrall (Like Buffy vs. Dracula) Xander stayed with Dracula for months (because he was under Dracula's thrall), in which Dracula grew attached to him, until Buffy saved Xander. When Dracula was needed, notice how Xander looked annoyed and upset, he didn't want to interact with Dracula again. He brought Renee with him to keep him on his feet, sadly he slips one time after another at the presence of Dracula until Renee snaps him out of it. From the looks of it, Xander doesn't seem to care much about Dracula while Dracula is obviously very attached to Xander. Even the last scene between them shows how much Xander resents Dracula's way of treating him, like a slave/manservant. In fact, the last scene is the best resolution to Xander's speech in Buffy vs Dracula where Xander got to stand up to Dracula, a great ending to his Butt-Monkey arc with Dracula.

The "gay love" here is obviously one sided: from Dracula's side. Xander, as it shown in Wolves at the Gate, isn't that interested in Dracula at all. Only went to him when the mission needed him.

That's how I've been seeing this arc. And it sounds pretty much so canon to me and not that hard to picture. But I can see why fans are having a hard time with it: they actually did the stupid thing of believing Andrew's tale while there's so much evidence that Andrew doesn't know jack about the real story. ;)

Were we seriously supposed to dig for metaphors and deeper meaning in Mecha Fricken Dawn?

Welcome to the Buffy fandom, Enisy ;) Where some fans are still trying to find a meaning for the cheese man when Joss had said it has no meaning whatsoever. :p

Okay... why?

Why they created a Giant Robot Dawn? Because Buffy has a Giant Dawn, they want something to measure up to a giant's strength, and they have been spying on Buffy and her crew for a while now, so they had the time and knowledge of who Dawn is. They knew Buffy would use Giant Dawn on them that's why they prepared themselves in case.

vampmogs

26-09-08, 02:31 PM

Exactly. Andrew's tale is already proven false by how Xander and acts and feels in 'Wolves At The Gate.' You can't believe Andrew and watch Xander, the two don't mesh. Xander and Dracula are NOT friends. Look at his expression when Buffy and Willow suggest contacting Dracula, look how neither want to bring it up to Xander, look at how ashamed Xander is when Dracula welcomes him at the door, look at Xander not wanting Renee to come or Xander threatening to kill Dracula. They obviously aren't friends, it's completely one-sided, and pretty obviously Andrew's story is false.

The flaw is that Joss and Drew used the scapegoat of Andrew because they knew no one would believe him, that Xander's actions contradict what Andrew is saying but it works so they don't have to explain a real story. It's lazy writing in that respect.

Why they created a Giant Robot Dawn? Because Buffy has a Giant Dawn, they want something to measure up to a giant's strength, and they have been spying on Buffy and her crew for a while now, so they had the time and knowledge of who Dawn is. They knew Buffy would use Giant Dawn on them that's why they prepared themselves in case.

Yeah I thought it was a pretty simple plot too? :s

sueworld

26-09-08, 02:35 PM

They obviously aren't friends, it's completely one-sided, and pretty obviously Andrew's story is false.

Oh I dunno though. :roll: Xander could have had a weak moment and all that....:p

I think that pairings rather cute myself, and one of the more interesting elements of 'Wolves'.

They knew Buffy would use Giant Dawn on them that's why they prepared themselves in case.

But why go to the bother of making it look like Dawn and talk like her? Oh lordy I can't believe I'm having a conversation about a giant robot Dawn, :lol: So stupid...*g*

vampmogs

26-09-08, 02:44 PM

Oh I dunno though. :roll: Xander could have had a weak moment and all that....:p

Well Xander was under Drac's thrall the entire time so as far as I understand it, he didn't have a choice to have a ‘weak moment.’

I think that pairings rather cute myself, and one of the more interesting elements of 'Wolves'.

I liked it to, I thought it was interesting but it's still one-sided, the affection is all coming from Dracula.

Under the surface though it does raise some pretty hairy questions. If the subtext became text, then we can gather Dracula had sex with Xander whilst having the guy under his thrall which is rape, no doubt about it. So no surprises Xander really didn’t want to go back to him.

But why go to the bother of making it look like Dawn and talk like her? Oh lordy I can't believe I'm having a conversation about a giant robot Dawn, :lol: So stupid...*g*

They wanted something that could match Dawn so it makes sense they'd blue print it based on an exact replica of her. Same height, same width ect. It ensures it can at least handle Dawn in a battle and with the extra "tail" it had an advantage over her, so it does make sense.

Sosa lola

26-09-08, 02:52 PM

Oh I dunno though. :roll: Xander could have had a weak moment and all that....:p

While Xander stayed with him for months? Probably. But he wasn't Xander, he was under Drac's thrall. So if it did happen, it'll be rape. Which I don't think Dracula has any problem with.

I think that pairings rather cute myself, and one of the more interesting elements of 'Wolves'.

I loved it, too :D But then, I'm a Xander Slash whore. ;)

But why go to the bother of making it look like Dawn and talk like her? Oh lordy I can't believe I'm having a conversation about a giant robot Dawn, :lol: So stupid...*g*

I think because they wanted it to match Dawn's strength and abilities.

sueworld

26-09-08, 02:53 PM

If the subtext became text, then we can gather Dracula had sex with Xander

Can we? I thought it came across that poor Drac was rather romantically smitten with Xander, but that didn't equate with 'jumping him' so to speak.

They wanted something that could match Dawn so it makes sense they'd blue print it based on an exact replica of her. Same height, same width ect. It ensures it can at least handle Dawn in a battle and with the extra "tail" it had an advantage over her, so it does make sense.

Right.....:roll:

So a tail that gets in the way is seen as an advantage, eh? *sigh* Ah, comics, don'tcha just lurve them?. :roll:

Also wouldn't they want to build something, Oh don't know, larger and more powerful, to get the advantage, rather then a silly carbon copy with a tail?

vampmogs

26-09-08, 03:02 PM

Can we? I thought it came across that poor Drac was rather romantically smitten with Xander, but that didn't equate with 'jumping him' so to speak.

It's open to interpretation to how far you think the "relationship" went. You can really read Xander's shame however you want. Either he's ashamed for the more general obvious reasons, in that he became Drac's "spider eating man bitch" or that it became more sinister than that and Xander couldn't do anything in his power to not be Dracula's "butt monkey." Totally up to the individual reader. Either way it sucks for Xander, which is why it's so good he gave Drac the verbal finger at the end of the arc.

So a tail that gets in the way is seen as an advantage, eh? *sigh* Ah, comics, don'tcha just lurve them?. :roll:

That gets in the way? Hate to break it to ya but many, many animals use their tails most certainly to their advantage. How would having an extra limb that could hit or trip your opponent up be seen as a disadvantage?

Also wouldn't they want to build something, Oh don't know, larger and more powerful, to get the advantage, rather then a silly carbon copy with a tail?

That silly carbon copy was a physical match for Dawn, with an added bonus of a tail. Making it therefore more powerful? She defeated it because Andrew's a geek with no life and told her how.

sueworld

26-09-08, 03:06 PM

That gets in the way? Hate to break it to ya but many, many animals use their tails most certainly to their advantage. How would having an extra limb that could hit or trip your opponent up be seen as a disadvantage?

I think you've been watching too many Japanese movies myself. :roll:

She defeated it because Andrew's a geek with no life and told her how.

Sorry, and that was the point was it? Lord, nowonder I don't get this series much. :s

Sosa lola

26-09-08, 03:10 PM

So a tail that gets in the way is seen as an advantage, eh?

Oh, don't underestimate the tail. :D No, seriously, my cousin is an animal-loving freak and she told me lots of stories on how animals use their tails for their advantage in defeating an enemy.

As to why Robot Dawn isn’t larger, probably because they didn't have time. They didn't even paint her *shakes head* she looked so ugly – maybe it's another way to hurt Dawn emotionally, we all know how hurting emotions is more affective than physical hurt, which is why they added the comments to put Dawn down.

I don't think Dawn would have defeated her robot self without the aid of Andrew. So good one for Andrew :2party:

sueworld

26-09-08, 03:17 PM

I don't think Dawn would have defeated her robot self without the aid of Andrew. So good one for Andrew

Sorry anything thats there to make Andrew look good can't be right! :roll:

At the end of the day the whole idea is just a really, very, very silly one, and isn't my idea of what Buffy is about at all. Next thing you know they'll have wee fairies in it...oh wait....:roll:

Anyhoo, Joss can do what he likes with this. His characters, his verse. I'm just grateful that I don't pay good money to read such daftness anymore but borrow my mates issues after he's finished them.:D

Sosa lola

26-09-08, 03:37 PM

Sorry anything thats there to make Andrew look good can't be right! :roll:

Aww, while he's not my favorite character, he did have some redeeming moments. Like when he lied to Xander in Chosen about Anya. Also that last moment in Storyteller was probably my favorite in S7 as a whole. Not to mention his "moving on" speech to Angel and Spike in TGIQ which started many Spangel fics. You gotta at least love him for that. :D

At the end of the day the whole idea is just a really, very, very silly one, and isn't my idea of what Buffy is about at all. Next thing you know they'll have wee fairies in it...oh wait....:roll:

C'mon, Sue, it's not like Buffy was the most realistic of shows. Warren building the Buffy bot in three weeks by himself? Now that's ridiculous. Plus in a verse that has demons, vampires, witches, Powers that Be, and those three floating pink haired sisters in AtS (I have no idea what they are) it's not far-fetched at all to see fairies.

Anyhoo, Joss can do what he likes with this. His characters, his verse. I'm just grateful that I don't pay good money to read such daftness anymore but borrow my mates issues after he's finished them.:D

Good for you. :) I wish you could enjoy it like the rest of us, but I'm well aware that tastes differ. That's why we have ship wars, character wars and our favorite seasons rank differently.

sueworld

26-09-08, 03:48 PM

C'mon, Sue, it's not like Buffy was the most realistic of shows. Warren building the Buffy bot in three weeks by himself?

The thing is both Buffy and Angel have 'played' with (on the face of it at least) daft ideas, but maybe because the show had actors to sell you the idea in a more convincing manner, or that some things appear more stupid a concept then others I just don't know. All fantasy shows have a sort of internal logic that they set up for themselves which they apply to their stories. What they've done in season 8 often seems too 'out there' to me sometimes and not connected to what went before.

Warren building that bot seemed less of an eye pulling 'stunt' then Mecha Dawn to me at least.

Whatever it is I have to say that judging by the response on sites such as Whedoneque I'm not the only one to think this way sadly.

Sosa lola

26-09-08, 04:00 PM

The thing is both Buffy and Angel have 'played' with (on the face of it at least) daft ideas, but maybe because the show had actors to sell you the idea in a more convincing manner, or that some things appear more stupid a concept then others I just don't know. All fantasy shows have a sort of internal logic that they set up for themselves which they apply to their stories. What they've done in season 8 often seems too 'out there' to me sometimes and not connected to what went before.

Warren building that bot seemed less of an eye pulling 'stunt' then Mecha Dawn to me at least.

Whatever it is I have to say that judging by the response on sites such as Whedoneque I'm not the only one to think this way sadly.

I agree that the change in the media and the lack of actors are one of the biggest factors that S8 suffer from. It's easy to accept a TV show based on a comic than accept a comic based on a TV show.

Thankfully, I'm enjoying S8, and that gives me less headache than not enjoying it ;) You remind me of me while watching S7, I was waiting passionately for it to improve and it kept getting worse. Empty Places was actually the point where I almost dropped Buffy as a whole –or at least stopped considering S7 as canon- but as years passed by (and having great fanfic to read) I reluctantly accepted the TV show with it's good and bad.

sueworld

26-09-08, 04:04 PM

Yeah, season 7 was far fro my favorite season either I'm afraid.

Maybe that despite being brought up on American comics I'm finding this format far less satisfying somehow.

I miss the actors, hell even their voices, and so having some dafter ideas and concepts creeping into the proceedings without them acting as a kind of 'buffer' makes me loose interest somewhat.

Rowan Hawthorn

26-09-08, 04:07 PM

Whatever it is I have to say that judging by the response on sites such as Whedoneque I'm not the only one to think this way sadly.
Yeah, well, thousands of people are addicted to reality TV, too, so I don't think numbers mean all that much when it comes to taste in entertainment...

sueworld

26-09-08, 04:12 PM

Rowan Hawthorn

26-09-08, 05:58 PM

As far as the general population goes, yes, I agree with you there, but we're talking about the 'hard core' who end up spending time posting on such such as Whedonesque, and so are already very interested in the show as well as being (on the whole) Joss friendly and normally accept the comic without much criticism at all.

So it did come as a surprise to see that some thought that the whole Mecha Dawn 'gag' fell a bit flat.

Why? There's hardly any topic/plot/character that doesn't create a whole set of hardcore fans on all sides of whatever the argument is about them. I don't know why anyone would expect anything different from this.

sueworld

26-09-08, 06:49 PM

Well judging by some of the comments on here some people do. :D

Skippcomet

26-09-08, 09:05 PM

At the end of the day the whole idea is just a really, very, very silly one, and isn't my idea of what Buffy is about at all. Next thing you know they'll have wee fairies in it...oh wait....:roll:

Or letting male characters have any roles in the New Slayer Organization at all when it's supposed to be a feminist statement....or letting Giles "get away" with being a vigilante who killed Ben and acting to overthrow Buffy....or letting Buffy, Xander, and/or Willow move on from past fan-favorite relationships into new relationships, one-night stands, or even just simple dates...

Sorry, I'm stretching a little, I know. But your remark about things in the story not being "[your] idea of what Buffy is about at all" kinda leapt out at me, in part because I think that actually applies to a lot more people who have complained about a lot more story elements over a lot more seasons than just MechaDawn/GiantDawn in Season Eight.

As for MechaDawn/GiantDawn in particular...well, the writers were always willing in the previous, televised, seasons to indulge their own collective senses of whimsy and silly joke ideas, no matter how willing the audience was to go along with them or not. I think that in the case of the comics, the writers don't see any particular difference between drawings on paper or actors in front of a camera, a serious plot about the characters is a serious plot about the characters, and a joke about/using the characters is a joke about/using the characters. I doubt that they seriously give a damn about the audiences' expectations or ability to take one medium as seriously as another.

Rowan Hawthorn

27-09-08, 12:19 AM

Or letting male characters have any roles in the New Slayer Organization at all when it's supposed to be a feminist statement....or letting Giles "get away" with being a vigilante who killed Ben and acting to overthrow Buffy....or letting Buffy, Xander, and/or Willow move on from past fan-favorite relationships into new relationships, one-night stands, or even just simple dates...

Sorry, I'm stretching a little, I know.

Not by much, though. I think by this time, anybody who's spent any time reading on-line forums have a fair idea which posters will have problems with a topic/plot/character because they spark some genuine issues and which ones will have problems with pretty much every damned thing that's released Just Because it doesn't line up with their favorite ficverse. And really, it's been that way at least since Season Five was in first-runs, it's nothing new to the comic.

ETA: Oh, and I agree with the rest of your post, too.

sueworld

27-09-08, 02:54 AM

I doubt that they seriously give a damn about the audiences' expectations or ability to take one medium as seriously as another.

Well, maybe they should have. Might have made it easier on some of their audience who (unlike myself) are new to comics and how they are structured.

vampmogs

27-09-08, 02:57 AM

Well, maybe they should have. Might have made it easier on some of their audience who (unlike myself) are new to comics and how they are structured.

I'm new to comics and I found it easy enough to follow. I've never been into comic books until season eight. In fact I've heard a lot of people complain that one of the things they don't like about Joss' issues is that he writes them too much like a television show and not enough like a comic.

sueworld

27-09-08, 03:01 AM

I'm new to comics and I found it easy enough to follow.

Good for you!

In fact I've heard a lot of people complain that one of the things they don't like about Joss' issues is that he writes them too much like a television show and not enough like a comic.

Well in the circles that I move I have to say I've haven't heard that complaint before. Buffy used to have a lot of women viewers and a lot of those fans have said on various polls etc that that season 8 was the first comic that they'd read and that they found it a difficult medium to get used to.

XavierZane

27-09-08, 03:25 AM

In fact I've heard a lot of people complain that one of the things they don't like about Joss' issues is that he writes them too much like a television show and not enough like a comic.

I've made that complaint before. It's not a huge problem, but there are definitely some tricks of the medium that he seems unwilling to use as readily as he should. Internal monologue, anyone? It's like he's embraced the medium 98% but can't go that extra little bit. The 'good comic moments' this season are the work of the other writers - the entire Faith arc (which is what the rest of the season should be like), Renee's death, etc. The only issue where Joss has gone full out was the Chain. Other than that Joss seems to still be writing in the vein of "the characters are in front of a camera and they say their dialogue." There's nothing wrong with that exactly, and it doesn't hamper my enjoyment, but it's a mite frustrating.

Rowan Hawthorn

27-09-08, 03:34 AM

Good for you!

Well in the circles that I move I have to say I've haven't heard that complaint before. Buffy used to have a lot of women viewers and a lot of those fans have said on various polls etc that that season 8 was the first comic that they'd read and that they found it a difficult medium to get used to.

So... There are people who only watch movies and never read books, authors should try to write as much like a film as possible, just to make it easy on'em? If people have a problem with the medium, that doesn't mean there's somehow a problem with the medium. It is what it is. Books aren't TV. TV isn't live theater. Live theater isn't like the movies. There's some bleed-over, but they're different by their very nature. Complaining that one medium isn't like another is like a truculent three-year-old complaining that his apple pie doesn't taste like chocolate ice cream. About the only answer it deserves is, "Well, DUH!"

sueworld

27-09-08, 03:43 AM

About the only answer it deserves is, "Well, DUH!"

:roll:

It's wonderfully sympathetic comments like that that makes this fandom such a joy to participate in sometimes. :xd

Rowan Hawthorn

27-09-08, 03:54 AM

What, there's something there to sympathize with? If somebody tells me they wish Season 8 had been live-action, I can sympathize with that - so do I. I miss seeing the actors as much as I did the characters. Thing is, it wasn't going to happen, so what's the point of wasting a good wish? But don't expect me to sympathize with people who just wanna whine about how "Comics aren't TV, and I'm not used to reading comics, so it's hard." Jeeze, people had to learn to just read, period, at some point in their lives.

vampmogs

27-09-08, 09:24 AM

I agree. I loose patience for those criticising season eight for being a comic, it seems as silly as someone criticising the televised seasons for being on TV. It's a pretty "well DUH moment." You knew that going into season eight so it's pointless to complain about it really. I think the majority of people, myself included, would prefer the season to be televised than in the comic medium but it’s in the medium because that’s the medium that allowed this continuation of the series to take place and in my opinion I’d rather have it in comic form than no form at all.

I personally not at all surprised when I open up the page and the pictures aren't moving, never expected it to, ain't gonna fault it for it either. I judge season eight on the stories, not on the medium.

hayes62

27-09-08, 09:43 AM

Buffy used to have a lot of women viewers and a lot of those fans have said on various polls etc that that season 8 was the first comic that they'd read and that they found it a difficult medium to get used to.

Are you saying that women are stupid or just women fans of Buffy? Because, as a fan of Buffy who is a woman, I resemble that remark. Except in so far as finding the S8 comics more exhilarating than confusing despite also being new to the medium.

sueworld

27-09-08, 10:24 AM

*sigh* Here we go...

I'm not saying women are stupid, but that on lj at least many women have stated that they haven't read comics before, find it not a medium of their liking and they cite that as one of the reasons why they gave up on them. Accept it or not male readers still outweigh the female ones when it comes to this medium, so I'm not surprised that a section of the original show find it a 'cultural shock' to start reading these things. It's nothing about 'being stupid' either so don't even think about starting down that particular road, okay? You know I am one, right? :lol:

Except in so far as finding the S8 comics more exhilarating than confusing despite also being new to the medium.

Good for you.

Here's another point of view concerning womens attitude towards the comic industry as a whole and their increasing role in the comic industry which I found interesting. Written (of course) before season 8 came along.

http://www.gadflyonline.com/8-13-01/ftr-girls-allowed.HTML

I personally not at all surprised when I open up the page and the pictures aren't moving, never expected it to, ain't gonna fault it for it either. I judge season eight on the stories, not on the medium.

Oh how patronizing. :roll:

At the end of the day you can accept my explanation as to what has been personally cited to me as one of the reasons some find it off putting or not, because quite frankly I don't care. :lol:

Rowan Hawthorn

27-09-08, 01:57 PM

Oh, I believe you - I just frankly don't care about that. The reality is, despite efforts, there is no TV series in the works. People can hold their breath and turn blue and kick the floor all they want, but it's not gonna change things. We got what we got, and fans can either deal or not, but blaming the comic medium for being comics is about as lame as it gets.

sueworld

27-09-08, 02:01 PM

And it's aggressive attitudes such as that from fans of the comics that help turn more people off this medium every day I'm afraid.

We know that we're not going to get another TV, thats not what I'm trying to explain here and I think you know that.

What I'm trying to explain why this medium is not very popular with some sections of women. You wanted to know, I'm telling you.

Right from the start some looked upon this medium as not being very female friendly I'm afraid. Look at that link and you'll see that in the past I'm not the only one to share that view. It's an attitude thats difficult to get around despite season 8 being written by Whedon and comments such as the above don't help I'm afraid.

But as you say you just don't care, so hey, happy reading. :roll:

*ETA* I'm off out now (makes a change) and so you all carry on having fun without me. :lol:

Rowan Hawthorn

27-09-08, 02:57 PM

And it's aggressive attitudes such as that from fans of the comics that help turn more people off this medium every day I'm afraid.

And it's constant bitching about every friggin' thing that's done that turn people off from sections of the fandom. Excuses and rationalizations for the simple fact that some people dislike the medium to start with don't help anything. I'll also mention that all of my life, comics have been held up to contempt as "not actually reading." Now, they're "difficult"? How precious!

We know that we're not going to get another TV, thats not what I'm trying to explain here and I think you know that.
Then deal with it. The rest of us had to.

What I'm trying to explain why this medium is not very popular with some sections of women. You wanted to know, I'm telling you.
No, I didn't want to know, and didn't ask. I've heard it all before. What does it matter? "This medium" has always been unpopular with some sections of everybody. (Hell, I went for nearly twenty years without picking up a comic, myself. Didn't start back until the early 90s, and only buy two or three besides "Buffy", now.) You can't please everybody; sometimes, you're flying if you can please anybody.

Right from the start some looked upon this medium as not being very female friendly I'm afraid. Look at that link and you'll see that in the past I'm not the only one to share that view.

From that link: "And then in the 90s, there's been this phenomenon of female characters drawn in this unbelievably exploitative, sexist way. They had never been drawn like that before."
This is so much total bullshit that I don't know where to start - but, hey! Let's start with some comic heroines of the 30s, 40s, and 50s, like:
Invisible Scarlet O'Neil
Black Canary
Miss Liberty
Millie the Model
Miss Fury
Wonder Woman

For decades, I've heard people complain about the kewpie-doll drawings of those old heroines (and let's not forget Miss Fury's skintight catsuit and Wonder Woman's bondage issues.) Sexist imagery is about more than just skimpy costumes. That's a pretty shallow way of looking at it.

It's something thats difficult to get around despite season 8 being written by Whedon.
Keep on rationalizing. You know that there hasn't been anything shown in the comics that couldn't (and wouldn't or hasn't) been shown on the TV series.

But as you say you just don't care, so hey, happy reading. :roll:
Thank you, I will. I'll also continue to look at the whole comic instead of "You know, that picture of Willow in panel three of page twelve doesn't look quite right, so this thing just sucks..."

sueworld

27-09-08, 03:07 PM

Now, they're "difficult"? How precious!

How rude. :2party:

Then deal with it. The rest of us had to.

Strangely enough I have. I just have given up on this series you're be relived to hear. :roll:

For decades, I've heard people complain about the kewpie-doll drawings of those old heroines (and let's not forget Miss Fury's skintight catsuit and Wonder Woman's bondage issues.) Sexist imagery is about more than just skimpy costumes. That's a pretty shallow way of looking at it.

No it isn't, but lets not go down that particular road shall we It's too big a topic to debate on here and also the wrong place for it.

Keep on rationalizing. You know that there hasn't been anything shown in the comics that couldn't (and wouldn't or hasn't) been shown on the TV series.

IMO I think Mecha Dawn wouldn't have been due to if nothing else it looking utterly out of place and quite frankly ridiculous. :roll:

Thank you, I will. I'll also continue to look at the whole comic instead of "You know, that picture of Willow in panel three of page twelve doesn't look quite right, so this thing just sucks..."

Thats the spirit! We all need a hobby eh?

Sosa lola

27-09-08, 03:09 PM

I think if we're going to obsess over characters' likeness in these issues we'll just have us an eternal headache. I guess I'm in it for the story (which I'm enjoying) plus, I'll always look for Chen's covers for character likeness. The important thing is I can recognize all the characters (even Andrew, whom I don't get why no one recognized him, the nose is the same, people :D) and that's what matters. Along with the story of course.

There will never be a perfect season. All seasons have their high and low points. S8's high point is the overall arc, which I'm digging. I still don't get how Buffy will ever have a normal life after she changed the world, and I'm so happy that Joss is making her face the consequences of her decision in Chosen. That's an interesting story.

hayes62

27-09-08, 04:38 PM

I've seen both men and women on LJ blame unfamiliarity with the medium for not enjoying the comics but not enjoying is different from not understanding so I was surprised to find another woman implying that being able to understand comic books was a specifically female problem. Generally I find that when one group of people have difficulties following something that another group has no problem with, the reason is more often lack of interest than of reading comprehension. Most of the people I’ve seen on LJ complaining about the S8 comics are fans of characters who don’t appear in them and often have no such issues with comics which do include their favourites. As for comics in general not being female friendly, as far as I can see that’s an issue of content more than form and pretty specific to Western superhero books. Japanese comics in diverse genres appear to have an enormous female following.

Sosa lola

27-09-08, 08:34 PM

I don't think the issue is female or male. Like you said, hayes62, the biggest issue here is lack of interest. I've known many, especially from LJ, who expressed disinterest to S8 before it even started. Some because their favorite character isn't there, some because they already have their own view of how things will be after Chosen (there are many "Xander in Africa" fics as well as "Post-Chosen Spuffies", which are all good but were jossed.), some didn't want the freedom of painting Buffy's future as they please to be taken from them, some hate the new medium, some have moved on to other shows....

So you get all these people who are not interested. Some swore not to read S8, and they didn't. Others just read them out of curiosity, and because a big number of people are gonna read them, and coming across the first bit that didn't come with their standard of what should happen, they started to trash it. Some dropped reading S8, while others still read it (because many are doing it) and with each review, they just trash it (Sometimes I'm tempted to say "Dude, you don't like it, then don't read it.")

Not following the comics is due to lack of interest. I'm a girl, I've never read comic books in my life, and I was able to follow them (I had some trouble with The Chain, but after second reading I understood it and enjoyed it.) My friend, also a girl, is a comic obsessed. She read S8 and was able to follow it. Why? Both of us are interested.

Rowan Hawthorn

29-09-08, 01:59 AM

How rude. :2party:
<shrug>I call'em like I see'em.

Strangely enough I have. I just have given up on this series you're be relived to hear. :roll:
Not that I believe it'll make much difference...

No it isn't, but lets not go down that particular road shall we It's too big a topic to debate on here and also the wrong place for it.
Then you shouldn't have brought it up. If you expect to post nonsense like that and not get called on it (or to not find someone who's read enough old comics to know it's nonsense,) you're in the wrong universe.

IMO I think Mecha Dawn wouldn't have been due to if nothing else it looking utterly out of place and quite frankly ridiculous. :roll:
Right. Like the praying-mantis-substitute, or the Beljoxa's eye, or the...

Thats the spirit! We all need a hobby eh?
If I had any more hobbies, I wouldn't have time for Real Life.

Rowan Hawthorn

29-09-08, 02:00 AM

I've seen both men and women on LJ blame unfamiliarity with the medium for not enjoying the comics but not enjoying is different from not understanding so I was surprised to find another woman implying that being able to understand comic books was a specifically female problem. Generally I find that when one group of people have difficulties following something that another group has no problem with, the reason is more often lack of interest than of reading comprehension. Most of the people I’ve seen on LJ complaining about the S8 comics are fans of characters who don’t appear in them and often have no such issues with comics which do include their favourites.

Sounds like you hit the nail right on the head, there.

Rowan Hawthorn

29-09-08, 02:05 AM

I don't think the issue is female or male. Like you said, hayes62, the biggest issue here is lack of interest. I've known many, especially from LJ, who expressed disinterest to S8 before it even started. Some because their favorite character isn't there, some because they already have their own view of how things will be after Chosen (there are many "Xander in Africa" fics as well as "Post-Chosen Spuffies", which are all good but were jossed.), some didn't want the freedom of painting Buffy's future as they please to be taken from them, some hate the new medium, some have moved on to other shows....

Bingo.

So you get all these people who are not interested. Some swore not to read S8, and they didn't. Others just read them out of curiosity, and because a big number of people are gonna read them, and coming across the first bit that didn't come with their standard of what should happen, they started to trash it. Some dropped reading S8, while others still read it (because many are doing it) and with each review, they just trash it (Sometimes I'm tempted to say "Dude, you don't like it, then don't read it.")

Bingo.

Not following the comics is due to lack of interest. I'm a girl, I've never read comic books in my life, and I was able to follow them (I had some trouble with The Chain, but after second reading I understood it and enjoyed it.) My friend, also a girl, is a comic obsessed. She read S8 and was able to follow it. Why? Both of us are interested.
Bingo.

Problem is, some people are incapable of just saying, "Well, it wasn't to my taste." ("Buffy" the series had the same problem on occasion.) Those people have to rationalize it, because gods forbid that it should have anything to do with personal taste. 'Cause, y'know, that would mean other people's taste might be just as good as theirs, only... different...

AllenGray

29-09-08, 02:13 AM

I've made that complaint before. It's not a huge problem, but there are definitely some tricks of the medium that he seems unwilling to use as readily as he should. Internal monologue, anyone?

I'm pretty sure it's deliberate. Astonishing X-Men is filled with wonderful internal monologue, case in point Wolverine's hilarious and archaic appeal to the Lord in Torn; the only reason to withold it here is to conceal something, to make things vague. It fits; this season more than any other relies on a central mystery and ambiguity. The audience isn't supposed to know what Buffy is thinking they're supposed to wonder what she's thinking. As in, "huh Buffy just elected to sacrifice civilians to achieve a larger goal and did so in a manner both casual and officious, what is she thinking?"

vampmogs

29-09-08, 02:16 AM

I'm pretty sure it's deliberate. Astonishing X-Men is filled with wonderful internal monologue, case in point Wolverine's hilarious and archaic appeal to the Lord in Torn; the only reason to withold it here is to conceal something, to make things vague. It fits; this season more than any other relies on a central mystery and ambiguity. The audience isn't supposed to know what Buffy is thinking they're supposed to wonder what she's thinking. As in, "huh Buffy just elected to sacrifice civilians to achieve a larger goal and did so in a manner both casual and officious, what is she thinking?"

Yeah I really agree with that. I'd never really noticed it but I saw a claim elsewhere that 'After the Fall' is more straightforward in the sense of "ok here's what I'm thinking and feeling." Some people enjoy it, other's don't. I think that's one of the arguments as to why season eight makes you think more, After the Fall is bloody fantastic but at the end of the day it's smooth sailing there isn't much to debate about.

XavierZane

29-09-08, 03:07 AM

vampmogs

29-09-08, 10:43 AM

Yeah, I believe it's deliberate as well. But I worry that maybe it's too deliberate. Like Joss structured his story so that he wouldn't have to delve into the minds of his characters too much. After so long of the characters being defined by dialogue and a healthy dose of ambiguity, the idea of getting rid of that ambiguity and opening up the minds of his characters must have seemed daunting, especially considering the...i'll say volatile nature of this fandom.

I love Season 8 immensely, and the internal monologue thing is a small complaint and is pretty much my only one, but I wonder sometimes how amazing it would have been if it had been structured as an intimate character study first and foremost, like Chain or the Faith Arc.

I must say personally I'm quite comfortable with the level of internal monologue we've had so far. I found it interesting that for the first time in basically ever, we got inside Buffy's head and literally heard what she was feeling during Issue #1 of 'The Long Way Home.' But I didn’t want to much of it, I like having to work out and interpret what the characters are thinking and feeling from the illustrations and their words. I didn’t need internal monologue to tell me how much Buffy shattered on the inside when Giles tells her he doesn’t want to be a part of it during ‘No Future For You,’ Jeanty captured so much in her facial expression, that was enough for me.

It would be interesting to have another internal monologue from Buffy but I think characters like Faith need it more. It worked so well for Faith because she literally has all these voices in her head shoving her around. Telling her to kill Buffy, to not kill Buffy ect. I think we needed her voices during ‘No Future For You’ to heighten the confusion and murkiness of her mission during that episode, and it worked well to show her mind change and develop as she adapted to the situation with Gigi.

sueworld

29-09-08, 01:07 PM

<shrug>I call'em like I see'em.

How jolly for you then. :xd But don't be surpised that other may see it as being out and out rude.

Then you shouldn't have brought it up. If you expect to post nonsense like that and not get called on it (or to not find someone who's read enough old comics to know it's nonsense,) you're in the wrong universe.

Remember my comment about being rude? Thats only seen as being 'nonsense' to you. Some of us may not, as surprising as that my seem to you. :D And by the way I've been a collector of American comics for well over 25 years.

Right. Like the praying-mantis-substitute, or the Beljoxa's eye, or the...

IMO not half as ridiculous as a bloody great mechanical Dawn. :roll: But then as I said before the show had actors to help sell some of the more outlandish elements of in the show, something the comics don't have the benefit off.

Generally I find that when one group of people have difficulties following something that another group has no problem with, the reason is more often lack of interest than of reading comprehension. Most of the people I’ve seen on LJ complaining about the S8 comics are fans of characters who don’t appear in them and often have no such issues with comics which do include their favourites.

No, not all of them. Some as you say don't find the comics a 'must read' for the following reasons I've seen cited...

1)Comics are childish and a 'comic book guy' thing and I just don't like them.

2)I've tried reading it and it just doesn't bear any resemblance to the old show so I'm dropping them.

3)The medium puts me off and I find elements of it confusing and the likenesses are awful.

4) My favorite character isn't in it so I'm finding it hard to whip up any enthusiasm to carry on reading them.

5) The stories make dull reading.

I for one am heartily relived that Spike isn't in this 'series' but I was hoping for great things with my second favorite character Giles, but oh dear, look how that ones gone so far...:s

As I said I'm still reading them, still in hope that we'll get some kind of interesting payoff with the whole Twilight angle, but thats about it I'm afraid.

Rowan Hawthorn

29-09-08, 01:30 PM

How jolly for you then. :xd But don't be surpised that other may see it as being out and out rude.
Oh, I'm not. Just like I'm not surprised when the queen of condescension compains about other posters being condescending.

Remember my comment about being rude? Thats only seen as being 'nonsense' to you. Some of us may not, as surprising as that my seem to you. :D And by the way I've been a collector of American comics for well over 25 years.
Then you ought to know yourself that it's nonsense. Sexist portrayals of women in comics go all the way back to the beginning. Anyone who seriously believes that's a new phenomenon that just cropped up in the 90s is, plain and simple, seeing just what they want to see and making the facts fit their theory.

IMO not half as ridiculous as a bloody great mechanical Dawn. :roll:
No, of course not.

No, not all of them. Some as you say don't find the comics a 'must read' for the following reasons I've seen cited...

1)Comics are a childish and a 'comic book guy' thing and I just don't like them.
Which is a problem on the part of the reader, not the medium ("I don't like that because of the medium. Nyah!" And the comics are childish?)

2)I've tried reading it and it just doesn't bear any resemblance to the old show so I'm dropping them.
Which is a problem on the part of the reader, not the story (since the idea that it doesn't bear any resemblance to the show is subjective opinion.)

3)The medium puts me off and I find elements of it confusing and the likenesses are awful.
Which is a problem on the part of the reader. ("I don't like that because of the medium. Nyah! The drawings don't look like photographs! Nyah!"" And the comics are childish?)

4) My favorite character isn't in it so I'm finding it hard to whip up any enthusiasm to carry on reading them.
The story is about Buffy - if the story is spoiled because it wasn't turned into "The Spikey Show", then that's a problem on the part of the reader.

5) The stories make dull reading.
Which is another opinion on the part of the reader.

I for one am heartily relived that Spike isn't in this 'series'
Me, too. And that's why we all know by this time:

As I said I'm still reading them, still in hope that we'll get some kind of interesting payoff
--that that's never gonna happen for you, no matter where the story goes.

sueworld

29-09-08, 01:41 PM

Oh, I'm not. Just like I'm not surprised when the queen of condescension compains about other posters being condescending.

Now, now, remember that 'rude' thing...:roll:

Then you ought to know yourself that it's nonsense. Sexist portrayals of women in comics go all the way back to the beginning. Anyone who seriously believes that's a new phenomenon that just cropped up in the 90s is, plain and simple, seeing just what they want to see and making the facts fit their theory.

It's getting better I grant you, but far from totally being women friendly', but then most comics are still geared towards young males. Not saying thats a bad thing, but there ya go.

After saying that Season 8 isn't your typical 'Kids comic' though as it does just about remember that Buffy as a TV show had a huge female following and so Joss I think it's trying to bare that in mind when he's writing this little number.

Which is a problem on the part of the reader, not the medium ("I don't like that because of the medium. Nyah!" And the comics are childish?)

Those unfamiliar with the medium often have that impression yes. And that surprises you? Not everyone has a history of reading the things you know.

Which is a problem on the part of the reader.

Upto a point, but look at how many folks tear into the artwork of both season 8 and ATF on places such a Whedonesque because of such a thing. It does seem a legitimate problem for some, and in some cases I agree with them.

Which is a problem on the part of the reader.

Not so much 'problem' but personal taste I'd say.

--that that's never gonna happen for you, no matter where the story goes.

Bloody hell love, I didn't know you were a mind reader too! :roll:

XavierZane

29-09-08, 08:27 PM

The problem with these readers is that when they heard Buffy was being continued as a comic book all they heard was "Buffy's being continued". And they bought that first issue of the series seemingly expecting the issue to magically transform into a television and a new episode of their favorite show. They were absolutely crushed when this didn't happen, and they cast the blame on the comic for being a comic book. They then continued to buy the comic issues and continued to expect it to be a television show. They continued calling it a show, continued calling the issues episodes, continued expecting the characters to look exactly like the actors. The complaint about likenesses is one of the most absurd things I've ever seen, by the by. I facepalm every time I read it.

By this point most of the readers who expect this comic to be a show have thankfully abandoned the comic. But the fact that they continued (and some continue) to blame the comic for failing to meet their expectations when their expectations were absurd and unrealistic is their problem not the medium's. If you're going to read a comic book make the effort to read it properly. If you don't know how to, learn. If you have ridiculous prejudices, ditch them. If you have done that, chances are you'll enjoy the book. If you still don't, admit that it's a matter of personal taste and don't blame it on the medium.