Returning Characters

[-beardo-]

Now i have seen alot of complaints about all the returning characters that have came in in the new series.
So we have had, Warren, Amy, Ethan, Fray (To an extent), we are getting Oz, and Harmony and Spike and Angel are bound to show up later on in a proper apperance.
So what is everybodys problem iwth reurning characters. TBH with you with Joss bringin in all these characters then it means we are heading for a big climatic battle, don't it. I mena deaths are going to happen in the final and im pretty glad, this means that season nine can be low key and i dont know set like 10 years after 2004.

[Bubblecat]

Personally I don't have any problems with seeing returning characters.

I think what people are adverse to, and I count myself amongst them, is that they miss their favourite(s). So, I miss Buffy's relationship with Giles, so whilst it's interesting to see Ethan, I still would prefer to see Giles.

[XavierZane]

I have no problems with the returning characters either. It's one of the things which can be done in the comic that could never be done in the television show. Joss can use any character he wants as much as he wants without having to worry about actor availability or how having to pay them affects the budget.

[Nina]

I'm okay with returning character, as long the main characters don't suffer from it. I love to see Harmony back and Dru (if she returns), to see Oz again ... as long they won't steal too much time and it would be nice if they actually have input in the arcs of the main characters.

[Matt]

I quite like the returning characters, but I think that some people's problems lies with the amount of characters that have actually returned this season, if this were an actual season I think it's highly doubtful that many characters would all return and I think that some people feel with so many old characters in the mix everything's all over the place.

[vampmogs]

I haven't noticed it to be honest. All the characters have fit naturally into the story in my opinion. None of them have really stuck out to me or distracted me from the story. And I really don't get people criticising the return of characters like Amy or Harmony. They've always popped up throughout the seasons to cause havoc and you didn't hear boo about it.

[Sosa lola]

I don't like having characters return just for the sake of returning them. If the plot needed them, then it's okay. I think Harmony's presence will be needed because of the plot of #21, Ethan's presence was also needed, Amy's was okay. I didn't like Warren coming back though, and see no need for him at all, except for shock value. I think it would be better if they left him dead.

[watcher1006]

I didn't like Warren coming back though, and see no need for him at all, except for shock value. I think it would be better if they left him dead.
I was very annoyed that they brought Warren back and thought that it diminished his story in Seasons 6 and 7 of the series. I thought that Amy on the other hand still had a lot of potential story left after Season 7.

I see it as a challenge for the comics to create interesting and enduring new characters that weren't part of the series. So far I don't feel that they've done that (like who is Satsu?) Continuing to use just those that were once portrayed by actors would be symptomatic of the comics' failure to meet that challenge.

[Sosa lola]

Satsu and Renee would have been more interesting if we knew more about their background: their family name, what they used to do before they became slayers, what their interests are and so on. Maybe if we had one shot issue centered around them before Wolves at the Gate that shows us more of who they are.

Now it's too late for Renee, but not Satsu.

[XavierZane]

But who was Angel, at first? Or Spike? or Anya? It took till the end of season 2 before we got any decent background on Angel. Till season 5 for any on Spike. Till season 7 for Anya. And Spike and Dru especially started out as shallow as Renee or Satsu, and would have stayed that way, dying in What's My Line?, except for Spike's popularity.

This is how new characters have always been handled by Joss. He introduces them cold, puts them through the wringer for a bit, then maybe fleshes them out if they survive.

[Nina]

I think the problem is the difference between comics and television. There are no actors who can give a character something extra, there is not as much time to develop characters without giving them too much space in the comic because people prefer to see their favourite main characters.

[XavierZane]

The actors make it easier on the fans, it's true, but that's not necessarily better. If everyone keeps using actors as a crutch then they'll always be dissatisfied with the comic. It's more challenging to flesh out the characters (and the actions, stories, dialogue, etc) in a comic because it's more of an interactive experience and it has to be done by the reader. We, as readers, are given the absolute bare bones of fiction and entertainment, a static image and isolated text, and we're responsible for filling in everything that can't be done by the writers. We have to make it work. It takes imagination and it takes endurance, but, in my opinion, as a avid comic book reader, it's worth the effort.

[Nina]

I agree with that you say there, and one of my favourite things they did with the comic were Renee's death and Angel's thoughts in issue 11 ... both things would never be possible on tv ... and I've no problem with the characters we already knew, it's great to read their thoughts. But my problem lays with the new characters, there is not much space for them and it's for me hard to give them a personality. Maria, Satsu, Renee ... I don't care about them (yet).

[XavierZane]

You have to make yourself care for them, is what I'm saying. You have to care for every character introduced, be willing to put in effort to create their characterization and their personality in your imagination. If you aren't then you're missing out on half the experience of reading a comic. It's difficult, but it's worth it.

[hawkedup]

Recycling characters is fine. Recycling them almost every other issue and doing a poor job of it? Not fine. Season 8 so far has not been the next chapter in the Buffy series. Current characters don't move forward and new characters get brushed to the side to bring back characters for no other reason than to bring them back and keep the fans buying the comic book without delivering on the writing or innovative ideas. I understand that people think Joss can do no wrong and are therefore against anyone speaking out against him, but Season 8 has been very weak and has yet to deliver on a single original idea. Not to mention, Joss’ issues are often times hard to follow and desultory at best.

Amy: Why would she still be in Sunnydale? She wouldn’t.
Warren: Was dead. Joss forgot? Well, that tells you how much planning and proof reading went into that completely lack of story arc.
Ethan Rayne: Accomplishes what now?
Dracula: So, Vlad the Impaler was actually a creepy old man who had a thing for young boys and ruined what should be wonderful scenes with unfunny, unwitty dialogue.
Fray: Wait a second… This isn’t the Fray I remember at all!

All these new characters and story arcs he can explore, and he keeps going backwards and backwards and backwards. Pretty soon the Master is going to have his own story arc.

[Koos]

Not agreeing on Dracula and Fray, but your problems with bringing back old characters is definitely something I agree on. And the big problem I have with it is is that the argument that it is possible in a comic is totally not true. The comic is the most unsuitable medium for many characters at all. It is way too short.

Joss has chosen a group of main characters. The show should be focussed on them and there should be a story to be told with them. So far, I haven't seen a story at all. It's all about the realm and changing the realm. And in addition to that there are some relationship/dating issues. But there has been no story at all, and the way this continues there will be none at all.

Joss has been called back to rewrite the scripts for Dollhouse. Well, he should be called back for rewriting the arc for this show.

[Slayer+]

Warren not being dead just ruins a lot for me. How is the First able to transform into him if he didn't even technically die? How come we don't see Andrew's reaction to his return?

Amy is OK, I suppose but meh. I thought her storyline was kind of done.

[hawkedup]

Slayer+. I agree about Warren. So Joss comes out and says he "forgot" and suddenly the fans are like: "Oh, well since he forgot, it's completely okay, we'll just petend that there is some loophole or something..."

I'm sorry, but it's not okay. Doesn't Joss have people proof reading this stuff? Either two things happend: 1) They are not taking this thing serious enough to have good proof readers or 2) They did proof read and decided that they didn't care and that the fans would buy into anything anyway.

Koos, you're totally right about there not being a story. There is no build or character arcs or anything. I don't think I'll continue subscribing after the Fray story arc.

[sueworld]

Considering my reputation for not thinking much of these comics, I can't believe what I'm about to say now, but... I do believe that there is a underlying story arc going on here, which is becoming more prevalent as time goes on (especially with this current arc)....but either because of the medium Joss is doing this in and the slow pacing and gaps between issues it often makes it very hard to realise it sometimes.

[Sosa lola]

Warren not being dead just ruins a lot for me. How is the First able to transform into him if he didn't even technically die? How come we don't see Andrew's reaction to his return?


Actually, I think Warren is dead. Hence his 'Last words I heard as a human.' in #4.

Kinda like Buffy in S1, dying a few minutes then coming back because of Xander's mouth to mouth. Amy gave Warren his mouth to mouth.

[XavierZane]

Actually, I think Warren is dead. Hence his 'Last words I heard as a human.' in #4.

Kinda like Buffy in S1, dying a few minutes then coming back because of Xander's mouth to mouth. Amy gave Warren his mouth to mouth.

Yeah, Joss caved way too quickly on that issue for no reason at all. Not only does Warren explicitly say, "last words of my human life", but the dude is skinless and kept alive by magic...how could he not have died at least a little? Furthermore, the powers of the First were always pretty vague. When we're first introduced, It takes the image of Adam and Glory, neither of which were ever quite alive and so couldn't really die. And he takes the form of vampires rather than their dead human selves (The Master).



Not agreeing on Dracula and Fray, but your problems with bringing back old characters is definitely something I agree on. And the big problem I have with it is is that the argument that it is possible in a comic is totally not true. The comic is the most unsuitable medium for many characters at all. It is way too short.

Tell that to the dozen or more ensemble/team books that populate DC and Marvel Comics. JLA, JSA, Fantastic Four, X-Men, Birds of Prey, The Avengers, Young Avengers, Runaways, The Outsiders, etc...comic books as a medium are very suited to lots of characters. Mainstream comics (Marvel and DC) probably couldn't continue without ensemble titles and team books. Not only are they usually the most popular titles, but they tie all the disparate characters together and maintain stability in the 'verses.

Joss has chosen a group of main characters. The show should be focussed on them and there should be a story to be told with them. So far, I haven't seen a story at all. It's all about the realm and changing the realm. And in addition to that there are some relationship/dating issues. But there has been no story at all, and the way this continues there will be none at all.

Joss has been called back to rewrite the scripts for Dollhouse. Well, he should be called back for rewriting the arc for this show.

This is something that's been bothering me since the book started, that I see all the time...

The thing is...this isn't a show. This is a comic book series. It's written like a comic book series, and written very well. The pacing has been damn near perfect, same with the characters (new and old). If you haven't seen a story it's because you've been willfully ignoring it. The sooner people stop trying to read this like a television show (such an interesting phrase) the sooner they'll enjoy this very good comic book series.

[Koos]

Tell that to the dozen or more ensemble/team books that populate DC and Marvel Comics. JLA, JSA, Fantastic Four, X-Men, Birds of Prey, The Avengers, Young Avengers, Runaways, The Outsiders, etc...comic books as a medium are very suited to lots of characters. Mainstream comics (Marvel and DC) probably couldn't continue without ensemble titles and team books. Not only are they usually the most popular titles, but they tie all the disparate characters together and maintain stability in the 'verses.

Which is perhaps the reason why I don't read them. I have tried though. The only comics I (not always) follow is the superman-batman title.
There's a difference between the examples you mentioned and Buffy though: Buffy season 8 consists only of one title. That doesn't give it the room to explore and involve so many characters.


This is something that's been bothering me since the book started, that I see all the time...

The thing is...this isn't a show. This is a comic book series. It's written like a comic book series, and written very well. The pacing has been damn near perfect, same with the characters (new and old). If you haven't seen a story it's because you've been willfully ignoring it. The sooner people stop trying to read this like a television show (such an interesting phrase) the sooner they'll enjoy this very good comic book series.

I don't care what the medium is, as long as they show us a story. And I have read many, many comics. Conclusion of that experience: comics can *show* us a story.

So far they have been consistently showing us what the situation is. When they will introduce older and newer characters, they have to explain what their situation is every single time. On top of that is Joss continuously busy recreating the realm all the time. There isn't a moments pause. By this there is barely room left to tell a story.

[XavierZane]

Which is perhaps the reason why I don't read them. I have tried though. The only comics I (not always) follow is the superman-batman title.
There's a difference between the examples you mentioned and Buffy though: Buffy season 8 consists only of one title. That doesn't give it the room to explore and involve so many characters.

All the series I mentioned only have one title too. The X-Men and the Avengers are the only groups that have multiple teams. Although, if you mean that Buffy has only one title to it's universe, then, well, yeah, you've got me there. I guess the only option is for Joss to give his blessing for a whole bunch of spin-offs. :3party:



I don't care what the medium is, as long as they show us a story. And I have read many, many comics. Conclusion of that experience: comics can *show* us a story.

So far they have been consistently showing us what the situation is. When they will introduce older and newer characters, they have to explain what their situation is every single time. On top of that is Joss continuously busy recreating the realm all the time. There isn't a moments pause. By this there is barely room left to tell a story.

I just don't see how a story hasn't been shown. I've been shown one. Buffy's decision to create an army of slayers is having consequences and has garnered her a slew of new enemies. She has to deal with the consequences and overcome the enemies. That's the story that I've seen, and have been enjoying since the first arc. Each arc has it's own story on top of that, and each main character has their own storyline as well.

[Koos]

[All the series I mentioned only have one title too. The X-Men and the Avengers are the only groups that have multiple teams. Although, if you mean that Buffy has only one title to it's universe, then, well, yeah, you've got me there. I guess the only option is for Joss to give his blessing for a whole bunch of spin-offs. :3party:

That's exactly what I mean.
Only with spin-offs it is possible to create and recreate a realm in way he wants it. Hell, even the much shorter Angel comics has a Spike-spin-off. The Faith-Giles arc can have it's own spin-off. The Slayers (for example those living in the HQ) can have their own spin-off. Perhaps a short Andrew spin-off. Or for one of the other characters they now try to squeez in. In that way, time can be spent for the story of the four main characters: Buffy, Willow, Xander and Dawn.


I just don't see how a story hasn't been shown. I've been shown one. Buffy's decision to create an army of slayers is having consequences and has garnered her a slew of new enemies. She has to deal with the consequences and overcome the enemies.

Is that a story?

It is a good question though. It doesn't feel like a story to me. I think that the problem is that Joss is jumping from one moment to another to continuously explain the situation. There's lack of detail in this.

For example: Buffy got the kiss of true love. She was simply kissed and be done with it. Willow got kidnapped. There was a little discussion about who would join Buffy and there was a bit of action and other interesting stuff and then she was simply rescued. We are jumping from the moment to where Willow was kidnapped almost instantly to the moment where she is saved.

The same happened in Fray's arc. Buffy is transported to the future, by some event that happened, and we then we have a series of moments in that time-frame that leads us to explaining the situation in that realm and leading up the moment where Fray has distanced herself from Buffy. That's not a story. *That's a series of moments.*

On the contrary I would say that Xander's little adventure in Fray's arc, is something resembling of a story; even though it is very short. He's also jumping from one moment to another, but the time-difference is short enough and everything is seen through his point of view. And it is an adventure. Something is happening to him. There's some action. There's some interaction. It is not telling the situation by conversation, but by showing.

It's also kind of the same of what happened in S7. Angel brought the amulet. But Joss could also have used his main character to send them on a quest to find the amulet. Or perhaps with finding the Scythe too. Then there's a story. Then they are actually doing something.

There are too many characters, way to many different situations, to tell a decent story that is well fleshed out well and where the characters can show the changes in their characterization. Why haven't we been seen the motivations and reasons that leads Buffy to make the decision to steal from a bank in detail. Isn't Buffy important enough to show us this in enough detail? How has Xander be able to move from a Dracula-buttmonkey to the someone who can lead 500 Slayers? What have been the problems he has been facing in this? Than we get a story. Now we only see that Xander is capable and there's that. Its'a given. And in such a way we continuously are moving from one given situation to another. With nothing in between.

[hawkedup]

I don’t think the argument has anything to do with how big the core cast is. Ensemble casts are a good thing, nobody would deny that. (Okay, maybe people who haven’t experienced the good stuff yet and don’t realize how well ensemble casts work.) Look at what Brian Lynch is doing with Angel: After the Fall. He brought back some old characters and the cast is pretty freaking huge, but he has done an amazing job with it, making it by far the superior Joss-Verse comic book series in production. The same thing cannot be said about Buffy. Instead, Buffy feels extremely convoluted, filled with many, many issues to tell one very simple and pretty uninteresting “underlining” story. Sort of like how the X-Men and Avengers titles have become almost unreadable unless you’ve somehow been able to read EVERYTHING Marvel has put out in the past 20 years.

[Koos]

I don’t think the argument has anything to do with how big the core cast is. Ensemble casts are a good thing, nobody would deny that. (Okay, maybe people who haven’t experienced the good stuff yet and don’t realize how well ensemble casts work.) Look at what Brian Lynch is doing with Angel: After the Fall. He brought back some old characters and the cast is pretty freaking huge, but he has done an amazing job with it, making it by far the superior Joss-Verse comic book series in production.

That's because he keeps the show focused around the core cast. He keeps it tight. If Joss would that in S8, I wouldn't have had a problem with it either.

You say that there's an simple underlying story. I don't see any story at all.

Joss likes to squeez all kinds of stuff in the show, that has nothing to do with the arc. I say that he needs to cut done on this. Keep the arc simple, keep the focus on the core cast and than you have to room to let the story be build.

I don't find the storyline of Angel interesting at all.

[hawkedup]

I don't see any story either. I guess I should clear it up and say underlining/ongoing plot devices (the "death of magic" stuff). But in a season made up completely of illogical plot devices, I guess they are hard to notice.

[vampmogs]

Season eight is a forty-issue extravaganza, it can't be compared to 'After the Fall' that has to squeeze all of it's story into only 16 issues, because obviously it's going to move at a slower pace. 'After the Fall' is fantastic, but season 8 is working on a bigger, dare I say, more complicated story. Season 8 personally makes me think more, and yes I do believe there’s a story.

The story is that Buffy’s dealing with the aftermath of the slayer spell in ‘Chosen.’ Up in her castle she’s changed, she’s become about the bigger picture and we’ve seen her make some really morally dubious decisions. Willow’s slightly weary of her, Xander’s completely unaware of what she’s delved into and she’s at odds with people like Giles and Faith. It’s Buffy’s story, where she’s heading and what consequences it will have.

You also have side stories, like Twilight and his organisation, Willow’s involvement with Saga Vasuki, the return of Amy and Warren ect. All woven into the grand scheme of things.

And given the spoilers concerning Issue #21 it was pretty obvious Joss knew where he was heading all along, there's been quite a build up this season to slayers become enemy in the eyes of the public with Simone Doffler, Twilight wanting to rid the earth of the slayers, General Voll saying that all they want to do is slay, Willow pointing out that Buffy's bank robbery is what makes people like Twilight hate slayers in the first place ect.

[Sosa lola]

Season eight is a forty-issue extravaganza, it can't be compared to 'After the Fall' that has to squeeze all of it's story into only 16 issues, because obviously it's going to move at a slower pace. 'After the Fall' is fantastic, but season 8 is working on a bigger, dare I say, more complicated story. Season 8 personally makes me think more, and yes I do believe there’s a story.

The story is that Buffy’s dealing with the aftermath of the slayer spell in ‘Chosen.’ Up in her castle she’s changed, she’s become about the bigger picture and we’ve seen her make some really morally dubious decisions. Willow’s slightly weary of her, Xander’s completely unaware of what she’s delved into and she’s at odds with people like Giles and Faith. It’s Buffy’s story, where she’s heading and what consequences it will have.

You also have side stories, like Twilight and his organisation, Willow’s involvement with Saga Vasuki, the return of Amy and Warren ect. All woven into the grand scheme of things.

And given the spoilers concerning Issue #21 it was pretty obvious Joss knew where he was heading all along, there's been quite a build up this season to slayers become enemy in the eyes of the public with Simone Doffler, Twilight wanting to rid the earth of the slayers, General Voll saying that all they want to do is slay, Willow pointing out that Buffy's bank robbery is what makes people like Twilight hate slayers in the first place ect.

Thank you!! I was floored with the comments about S8 not having a story. So what were all these 18 issues we read about? Weren't they stories? Actually S8 is more story/plot driven than character driven, its story looks larger than life. Kinda like S7, but way bigger and more epic like.

[hawkedup]

It isn't build up to something that was obvious from before the series even came out. Also... Where is the build up? Certainly isn't happening on the page. And because they have 40 issues, that means that they should take what should be a 15-20 issue story and shoot it full of filler in order to make more money? Please.

I get it. Joss can do no wrong. And that's exactly what Dark Horse is counting on the fans to think.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

I get it. Joss can do no wrong.

My, don't we give ourselves airs?

No, in order to actually get it, you'd have to realize that people have different interests, different POVs, and different ideas about what the story is actually about and simply get tired of listening to a few people who obviously grew disenchanted with the story quite a long time ago (if they ever were interested to begin with, which, given some of the suggestions for what would make the story "better", grows increasingly doubtful) beat the same "Joss Whedon and all his work sucks because it's Joss Whedon" horse to death no matter what the topic is. (Some of us are also tired of the "Anybody who doesn't hate the same things I hate is a lame-o sheep" BS that smothers the internet. But that's another rant. One at a time.) Frankly, dude, I don't see a lot of room on the idiot-meter between "Joss Whedon can do no wrong" and "Joss Whedon can't do anything right."

Most, if not all, of us could pick out things we didn't like over the course of seven seasons on TV and the comic so far. I know I could; and since I didn't write the thing myself, that's to be expected. But if that's all that I was capable of dwelling on, then either a) I haven't been paying attention, b) I desperately need to learn that I can't have everything my way (something we were all supposed to learn by the time we were five,) or c) I need to just admit to myself that this isn't really my thing after all, and go back to reading Thundercats, or whatever it is that turns me on.

There are lots of writers I don't care for, but I don't obsess about following their stuff so I can then go to every fansite I can find and proclaim how bad I hate everything they do and how they should either change their stuff to suit me, or somebody should take their creations away from them and give it to someone else who will write it to suit me me me...

[Sosa lola]

I get it. Joss can do no wrong. And that's exactly what Dark Horse is counting on the fans to think.

No one said that Joss is perfect. He's human and he will make mistakes. Bringing back Warren is the biggest example. However, I am enjoying S8. I know many who are enjoying S8. And just because we enjoy it, it doesn't mean we think that Joss does no wrong.

I'm not a big fan of S7, but I'm aware there are many who like it. Does that make them think that Joss (or Martie) does no wrong?

[XavierZane]

I was going to keep arguing, but you guys have done such a good job without me that I don't want to interfere!

Leaves me free to make a list. A list of the characters whose extremely unlikely returns would combine 'throw the book across the room' shock with 'OMG!!1!' joy. I kept my list to those who were alive last we saw them, but if you choose to make one (and I invite anybody to join in on the fun) you don't have to keep to that. Enjoy!


Top 5 Ultimate Returns

5. Willy the Snitch
Why?: Because I want to see if he's finally gone straight. I always missed the guy once he disappeared from the show, and want to make sure he survived the Collapse.
Why it could work: Um...cause I said so?

4. Whistler
Why?: Because one appearance isn't enough, even if it was a double episode. I need more info on this guy/demon and a good dose of snark.
Why it could work: Buffy has screwed up Balance big time, nobody's disputing that. It's Whistler's job to maintain Balance. Seems like a good time for a sit-down.

3. Anne
Why?: I want Buffy to find out what Anne made of herself, and want her to find out that Anne's been interacting with Angel the last few years. I'd also like confirmation that she's still alive.
Why it could work: Anne, as Buffy's former philosophy incarnate, could serve Buffy the moral wake up call that fans are clamoring for.

2. Marcie Ross
Why?: She's an invisible assassin. Let me say that again: She's. an. invisible. assassin. :heart:
Why it could work: She's an invisible assassin for the United States government, a portion of which Buffy is currently fighting. The idea that Voll or someone like him is going to send someone after Buffy isn't far fetched at all, the idea that it will be Marcie, unfortunatly, is. :cutecry:

1. Pike
Why?: Because I was fan of the Buffy movie for years without watching the show. It's one of those movies that you watch when you're eight and you love forever no matter how bad it is - like Hook, or Bio-Dome. I hoped and prayed for a Pike reference or appearance through all seven seasons, and I continue to do so. Seriously, I would have a fangasm of epic proportions if he appeared even to just learn that he's married and has kids and owns a bowling ally.
Why it could work: It wouldn't. Pike was dissolved and his persona was split up and divided between Xander, Angel, and Spike. If he appeared it would cause the universe to implode or turn into a hippopotamus.

Honorable Mentions: Primal Slayer, Catherine Madison, Lyle Gorch

[hawkedup]

Firstly, I love Joss. Nobody said he can only do wrong.

Silly, rabbit.

He's just doing a bad job with season 8, and I’ve seen many people skeptical about this series but keep protecting it because it is Joss. And I personally know half a dozen people who only buy the comics because it is Buffy, hoping that it gets good sometime in the future. Hell I AM one of these people. I really stopped enjoying it during Wolves at the Gate and yet I keep on buying them just in case they get good because it is Joss and he has done such amazing stuff in the past. So, if you are not one of these people that I’m talking about and you are an exception to the rule…. Then…. Why are you responding?

Yeah. Everyone has different opinions. The last refuge of the blindly devoted. I keep trying to get people to explain why they are liking it. I’m HOPING that they come to me and explain a few things I might have missed that make the series click in my head and I start liking it again. I WANT TO LIKE THIS SERIES. You guys are obviously seeing something that I’m not.

So, why is this series worth reading?

[XavierZane]

Personally, I'm sorry that you're not enjoying the series. It's a shame, because the wonderful series you're looking for seems, to me, to be there. Have you done a re-read of all the issues? Sometimes if you go over all of them again, all at once, a series will come out in a new light.

[hawkedup]

I hav done a reread. I'm sorry that I'm not enjoying the series either. You say it's wonderful, but you don't say why. I could go on for pages about why Angel: After the Fall is wonderful. Or Y: The Last Man. Or Fallen Angel. Or any series I really like. I've seen at least a few people do just that with Angel. But nothing from the Buffy side. Just: "It's good... Because... Uh... It is." That's why I'm asking you guys to explain to me what you like about the series so much. I want to like it. I want to be proven wrong.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

He's just doing a bad job with season 8
There's an opinion, again, presented as fact.

, and I’ve seen many people skeptical about this series but keep protecting it because it is Joss. And I personally know half a dozen people who only buy the comics because it is Buffy, hoping that it gets good sometime in the future.
Big whoop. Lots of people think rap music is the greatest thing ever invented. I and a lot of other people I know think it sucks beyond the telling of it. Doesn't make either group objectively right or wrong, it just means we have different tastes in music.

Hell I AM one of these people. I really stopped enjoying it during Wolves at the Gate and yet I keep on buying them just in case they get good because it is Joss and he has done such amazing stuff in the past. So, if you are not one of these people that I’m talking about and you are an exception to the rule…. Then…. Why are you responding?
Well, your blanket attitude towards the people who don't hate it has a lot to do with it...

Yeah. Everyone has different opinions. The last refuge of the blindly devoted.
...like that, right there. Explain to me, now, exactly why anyone should waste time explaining themselves to people who come off like this?

I keep trying to get people to explain why they are liking it.
No, actually, you really don't - or didn't, until you were called on these last posts. Saying that the series sucks, and anyone who likes it is being led around by the nose doesn't give people much incentive to engage in any kind of actual discussion, particularly since there are posters all over this forum talking about what they like (and don't like) about the comic. Do you just skip over their posts because they're "blindly devoted" to Joss ('cause, y'know, they couldn't actually like the story if they weren't,) or are you just not paying attention?

[hawkedup]

I use blanket statements. I generalize. Everybody does. It’s the way of the world. Ha! The "let's agree to disagree" statement is used for two reasons: a) when you are so closed minded that you are unable to see the facts for what they are or b) you are enable to provide any evidence to further your argument and are afraid to admit that you are wrong. It is the last refuge of the blindly devoted when it comes to anything in the world.

That’s what I meant. But it is unimportant.

I’m asking for you to tell me why you like Season 8. Not to pick apart my posts for no other reason than to… I don’t know… discredit me? With this, as with all things, I want my mind to be changed—I want to be proven wrong. That’s what I’m asking for right now. Now, I realize that someone might want to focus on my statement about blindly devoted again, but I’d ask you not to. If you want to talk about it, then post another thread somewhere and I’d be happy to go at it with you until I get bored. What I’m asking, Joss fan to Joss fans, is for you to help me figure out why Season 8 is as good as you say it is.

Really, it should be very easy considering how much you guys like it, right? And it shouldn’t be necessary to post anything other than your feelings on why you love the comic book, no? That’s all I’m asking here. I realized that no matter how much evidence I provided compared to the noticeable lack of evidence on the other side, the argument went nowhere, so I have changed strategies to make my intentions more obvious and am now, literally, begging for someone to not respond by issuing personal attacks, or quoting single lines from my posts and finding vague possibly inconsistencies, but to just come out and tell me what is so great about this series and help me like it.

Isn’t that the only reason why people argue? To be proven wrong? Right? It’s the only way to grow and learn, I think. The alternative… Well, I don’t want to even THINK about why people argue if their sole purpose is not to be proven wrong.

[vampmogs]

I like season eight for many reasons.

I love season eight because it's began focusing again on Buffy, Xander and Willow. It's turned to the formula that in my opinion, worked best for the show. These three characters were what interested me about the show from the beginning, seeing Joss return to that bond in whatever form and giving each of these characters enough "screen time" is exactly what I was hoping for. At the end of 'Wolves At The Gate' the final page each had a panel of Buffy, Xander and Willow and I couldn't wipe the smile of my face, how long has it been since we had an episode ending on all three characters?

I love season eight because Xander's been portrayed as the capable resourceful, important man he actually is and hasn't been regulated to the sidelines like he was since season five. I love his relationship with Buffy, it interests me greatly and I love seeing the changes to his character, how he's grown, how he's dealt with what's going on, it fascinates me to hear his perspective on things because it's always a unique one.

I love season eight for how Buffy has been written. I love that they've put her in this really morally questionable grey area, that they haven't been afraid to show her making some really hairy mistakes, just like the writers did with Angel. Her story fascinates me, far more than it has since at least season five, I'm intrigued, I can't wait to see where they're heading with her. I love reading back over the issues and seeing all the hints of her change, it's all right there on the page.

I love the relationship between Buffy/Xander, Buffy/Willow and Xander/Dawn. Buffy/Willow has so many levels, they're still friends, they obviously care greatly for each other but Willow doesn't agree with how Buffy's been handling things now, we get the close up on Willow's face in "Anywhere But Here" when the demon says that Buffy's life goal is to end magic, and certainly it's evident there's a real possibility that something is going to happen between these two, and now we see how it ends up being in the future, Willow dark and distant and with some major problems with Buffy. Buffy/Xander is a really sweet adorable relationship, they're side by side and I love it, it's a wonderful extension to how they were throughout the series and Xander/Dawn and all it's shippy subtext is fun and intriguing and genuinely very sweet, all their scenes have been really nice and Xander's been a great support to Dawn.

I love the Twilight storyline, I think it’s great. I love how they’re dealing with the repercussions of the slayer spell, showing the positives and the negatives, and how people like Twilight want to end them, and magic. It’s a big epic, mysterious tale and I love getting new clues about Twilight. He’s a great big bad, much better than the First and the Trio and I love trying to suss him out and his techniques for getting to Buffy- to play on her moral certainty.

I also love the other stories, I really enjoyed the very brief but adorable Xander/Renee, I'm very interested in the Willow/Vasuki storyline and what Joss has in store for us with that one, it's very, very creepy.

In general, I love the writing. The last few years of Btvs lacked in spark and wit in the writing that the show was praised because of in the first place. In my opinion it had lost it’s spark, it’s zest. Season eight has gotten it back, it’s fun and humorous, it’s quirky and snappy and it weaves together the right mixture of humour, sadness, action and drama into the writing that the show used to blend together so well. I like when all these elements are combined and not one just focused on all the time, the show works best when it can have a mixture of all these things at once.

And I love how the season’s been played out. It’s a gigantic jigsaw puzzle, the more pieces we get- the more it makes sense. That fascinates me, and it appeals to me on a higher level because there’s always an excuse to go back and read it again, because you’re such to find something that you didn’t see before. It has many layers. It’s a grand epic story with lots of seeds planted and as the season goes onwards you begin to see them all develop and come together, I love that.

If you go back to the very first issue in 'The Long Way Home' and you see Buffy talk about her two slayer decoys it's in that moment you can look back on it and think "hey somethings changed" because Buffy of a few years back wouldn't have been so easy with the idea of two girls standing as targets for her. At the end of the episode you're stunned by her simple acceptance that she's "At war with the human race" and Allie is right, he described it as "chilling." You look back at 'No Future For You' and see Buffy reconsider killing humans then you see her stand with a sword over her head ready to kill Gigi screaming "You killed other *slayers*" and looking back on that now, you realise she wasn't so angry about Gigi killing normal people, but other slayers. You look back and see that Buffy was now in Faith's position and Faith in Buffy's, their roles have been reversed, "Are you the bad slayer now? Am I the good slayer now?" and looking back at 'Wolves At The Gate' you see her sleep with a subordinate, in "Anywhere But Here" the revelation she robbed a bank to the fund the army and in 'Time of Your Life' she's prepared to let innocents die for her plan. They're all pieces of the puzzle to show Buffy's changed, looking back on it, it's clear Meltzer's not bluffing when he says Joss has this all planned out, it's evident he does.
So it bewilders me to say season eight doesn’t have a story, it so clearly does.

So that's why I love season eight.

[hawkedup]

Thank you. That's what I've been waiting for.

How do you feel about the Buffy/Satsu relationship? Don't you feel it negates how serious the Willow/Tara thing was? Also, I'm wondering, what you think this relationship adds to the series that couldn't have been done in another way?

And what about the all over the place feel of the series. Wouldn't you rather have a series that didn't jump all around, leaving us with glimpses of the characters? Don't you think that it is keeping the story from growing? Everything feels so random.

If the story did focus on Buffy, Willow, and Xander (and Dawn) then I see where you are coming from. How do you feel about the lack of FOCUS?

[Nina]

At first, I like the story and the characters (I won't say love ... I've to many issues with it to love it) ... and somehow I can't finish reading the most issues. I love to talk about it, find out where the story is going ... but the comics can't catch me. I'm not a real comic reader (I only read Ats and BtVS ... and in the past comics like TinTin.) ... maybe that's the problem.

But let's start with why I like season 8;

For somebody like me who wouldn't care if all the characters (minus Xander and Faith) were killed by the Turuk Hans in Chosen ... season 8 had a lot of work to do to make me at least like the characters again. And in the most cases it did. They redeemed the aweful character development in season 7 (Buffy, Willow), or developed that storyline (Giles story).

Buffy gets finally a grey area storyline ... one that will probably end in her finding out the hard way that it doesn't work like that. Just like Angel found that out in Ats season 2 and season 5. But after the last issues I'm worrying about Buffy, if the other characters were in that area ... they were depressed, lost somebody they loved a lot or they were Wesley, who looks fulltime crazy. Buffy looks not depressed, crazy, in pain, stuck in W&H or stoned at all ... she is lighter than she was in the last 3 seasons. It's an interesting new story and I want the writers to deal with that very careful, because if they don't or they decide to not let Buffy fall; It would destroy the whole season and the character Buffy, at least for me.

I like that Xander is an actual part of the story. He still lacks a real storyline ... but he had an arc and actual lines ... good and interesting lines. I hope that they will find an arc for the guy, and I prefer not to see 'good character turns dark' storyline #7.

I loved the arc 'No Future For You', I don't really care about the big epic stories in the comics. I want to know what the characters are thinking, how they are feeling and I want to see them develop. This arc gave us a great insight in Faith's psyche ... probably the only slayer who doesn't believe in 'want ,take, have' right now ... and I love her team up with Giles who needed a serious wake up call.

I love that you can ask so much questions like; Who is Twilight? What is Willow doing? Where is Dana and who knows about her? What does Giles know and his prophecy? Who is going to betray Buffy?

Of course, many questions means that they have to answer every single one of those to make it good storytelling, but if they planned it well we should hear all the answers. And I hope that they did plan.

I also have many issues with season 8; to much things happing at the same time, random stories like they are jumping from arc to arc (writer to writer), a bit too much 'we can do what he want because this is a comic', Buffy (a horny straight girl) using Satsu (a lesbian who is in love with Buffy -true love kiss-) went by for me too easy ... I think that there are so many gay people used by straight people for an adventure; that this is not the way to show Buffy that casual sex is fun ... if Satsu wasn't in love with her ... fine, but she is. I hope that there will be more story around this, if not; I would like to know why the writers made Satsu in love with Buffy.

But right now I like to read it.
And it's up to them if I will love season 8 or will despise it.

[Sosa lola]

I love season 8 for the thing its haters hate it for: the mysteries. I love that it's a whole big mystery with so many clues that do not tell you exactly what the hell is happening, why the hell Willow is doing this, why the hell Buffy turned out like this, is there more to Dawn's story with Kenny? And so on. Some fans can't be patient enough, I don't blame them, the slow pace in the comic medium is killing me as well, especially that we'll get the answers to all our questions in 2010. I think I'm more patient than most.

Another aspect: I LOVE the main storyline. That Buffy's decision to make all potentials slayers had changed the world beyond repair. That Buffy must face the consequences of her decision, the big pressure of taking care of way more girls than the ones she had in S7, the pressure of having the government after her accusing her of being a terrorist who blew up a whole town, the pressure of hiding from society and real life, the pressure of not having a warm embrace to cuddle to at night, all that had driven the poor girl to become the woman you see in S8.

I love that they continued and blossomed some things we saw in S7: Buffy's "I'm the law" attitude, Buffy and Xander's friendship, Buffy and Giles' detachment, whatever some say, I can see continuity very clearly.

I love that S8 made me love Faith. I never cared about her character, but S8 made me more interested in her. If there was no S8, I'd never have appreciated the character Faith.

I also love that Buffy and Giles have issues with each other, because I HATED the so-called patching things up in Chosen. "What do you think?" "Do you wanna hear my opinion?" "I wanna hear all your opinions." THAT'S the patching up a great relationship Buffy/Giles deserves? Meh. Hopefully S8 will do a much better job.

While it's not everybody's favorite, Wolves at the Gate was mine. It was a typical TV Buffy comedy. I really enjoyed the Dracula/Xander story, and I know many who think it's farce and don't believe it'll ever happen. But I think it can be believable, just don't take Andrew's explanation to heart. It's up to us how Dracula became obsessed with Xander. Xander, on the other hand, doesn't seem to like Dracula much, which is a given, he wasn't really Xander in those months he stayed with Dracula now was he?

While I had my objections with Buffy/Satsu, I can see now that's also not a big deal. I believe it's something Buffy will do. Like I said, the girl wants a warm embrace to cuddle to at night, and she's been moaning about not having sex from #1. She's been having dreams about Xander, for God's sake. Well, he's the only man in the castle. And she can't ask him to have a one night stand, because he's her best friend and she doesn't wanna wreck that by making it complicated, plus she knows about his feelings for Renee. Knowing that Satsu loves her and admires her made Buffy feel loved, she rejected Satsu at the beginning, then she was reluctant. She wanted the warm embrace. She explained to Satsu that she's not gay, she's not looking for a relationship, and Satsu still accepted to sleep with her.

So, yeah, I love S8 with all its mysteries and character-development and character-detachment. And I'm waiting for Buffy's fall, patiently.

[vampmogs]

How do you feel about the Buffy/Satsu relationship? Don't you feel it negates how serious the Willow/Tara thing was? Also, I'm wondering, what you think this relationship adds to the series that couldn't have been done in another way?

Nope I don't think it negates the Willow/Tara thing at all, I liked that it didn't take itself too seriously. Too often Buffy's relationships are so damn serious, Buffy/Satsu undercut so much of what we've come to expect from Buffy and her relationships and I really enjoyed that. Take for example, Buffy's desire to keep it a secret from the others, we've seen this with Angel, with Spike and even with Riley to an extent, but the season undercut this by having Xander and Renee walk into the room, followed by Dawn, Andrew and Willow seeing and it was all out in the open. That was fun, it was different for her.

I think it taught Buffy a very valuable lesson. In 'A Beautiful Sunset' she sobs to Satsu that everyone who loves her dies, that all her relationships must end in doom and gloom. Satsu taught her that this doesn't have to be the case, their relationship ended with a really sweet moment between them and a mutual break up, it was endearing and uncomplicated and so emotionally honest. It showed Buffy not everything has to end badly, that was it's point in my belief.

And as Sosa mentioned, I believe there's enough to show it was coming. In Issue #1 Buffy says she misses the sex, in 'No Future For You' she feels alone, in 'A Beautiful Sunset' she asks Xander why can't she feel the connection, Xander says it's because she's the leader and the other slayers are her subordinates. So what does she do? She meets a girl who she knows for a *fact* given the love spell, that she's "deeply devoted" and in love with her. This is a girl who Buffy thinks is sweet, who respects as a fighter, a person she genuingly likes. So she sleeps with her, she wants to feel that connection, to have that sex on some level, to try and uncover what it is she's missing. She never meant to hurt Satsu, Satsu wasn't innocent either she knew everything she was getting into, but at the end of the day that's what Buffy needed to try.

And what about the all over the place feel of the series. Wouldn't you rather have a series that didn't jump all around, leaving us with glimpses of the characters? Don't you think that it is keeping the story from growing? Everything feels so random.

I guess that's just a matter of opinion because I must say that I don't feel that at all. I agree that the set up of the season is very different, it's more complicated than your average season, but I don't believe it's all over the place. I actually enjoy that Joss has tried something new with how he operates within a season, it's the same basic forumla but with a new twist. I don't really think it jumps all over the place, I mean how exactly? Could you elaborate so I understand what you mean? :)

If the story did focus on Buffy, Willow, and Xander (and Dawn) then I see where you are coming from. How do you feel about the lack of FOCUS?

See I don't feel there is a lack of focus. After the horrible season seven and in my opinion, less than fantastic season six (though much, much better than seven) I've finally found confidence in Joss and the writers again that they know exactly where they're heading with the season. I truly believe that, nothing worries me. I think the focus has most certainly been on Buffy, Xander and Willow and I love that. Buffy's story is so clearly put together, it's clear she's changed and we're meant to know it, same for Willow and Xander ect.

[sueworld]

Buffy's desire to keep it a secret from the others, we've seen this with Angel, with Spike and even with Riley to an extent, but the season undercut this by having Xander and Renee walk into the room, followed by Dawn, Andrew and Willow seeing and it was all out in the open. That was fun, it was different for her.

I agree. That scene worked very well. :roll:

[Koos]

Season eight is a forty-issue extravaganza, it can't be compared to 'After the Fall' that has to squeeze all of it's story into only 16 issues, because obviously it's going to move at a slower pace. 'After the Fall' is fantastic, but season 8 is working on a bigger, dare I say, more complicated story. Season 8 personally makes me think more, and yes I do believe there’s a story.

Which is the reason why I never liked the idea of having the season being blown up from 25 issues to 40 issues. The show isn't tight enough anymore.

I agree that the show makes me think more. And it is all interesting and so on. But that was already planned out in 25 issues. Which means we have to wait another 15 months extra to have the same arc being shown. With 5 minutes reading each month, that is a long wait.


The story is that Buffy’s dealing with the aftermath of the slayer spell in ‘Chosen.’ Up in her castle she’s changed, she’s become about the bigger picture and we’ve seen her make some really morally dubious decisions. Willow’s slightly weary of her, Xander’s completely unaware of what she’s delved into and she’s at odds with people like Giles and Faith. It’s Buffy’s story, where she’s heading and what consequences it will have.

You also have side stories, like Twilight and his organisation, Willow’s involvement with Saga Vasuki, the return of Amy and Warren ect. All woven into the grand scheme of things.


That's not a story, that's an arc.

[XavierZane]

Most of the reasons that I love Season 8 have been gone over very well ahead of me. So I'll go with the more overarching reasons that I love this series.

Top 4 Reasons I Love Season 8

4. Buffy and Xander. At this point I almost don't care if they never get together romantically. They're back to being one of the most amazing friendships ever written. So caring, so intimate, so wonderful! Of course, I would love it if they did get together romantically, and I'm still holding on to hope. The fact that they're practically married is a good start. Seriously, they're living together, working together, hanging out almost solely with each other, counseling each other, leaning on each other. I'm half expecting a big surprise reveal that they actually are married and they're just taking a break for awhile for some reason. Or maybe that's half wishing...
3. A living fandom. I didn't watch a single episode of the show while it was on the air. By the time I found out that there was a show based on one of my favorite movies it was already in the fourth season and I didn't want to come into the show after such a long history had already been established. I regret that decision mucho. A few years later I finally watched all the seasons on DVD and fell in love...hard. I immediately immersed myself in what was left of the fandom, but, as someone on LJ has put it, the fandom was 'resting.' Being able to experience new stories in the Buffyverse with this fandom is fantastically awesome. Especially since...
2. Comic books are my preferred medium. I'm a comic book fan first, a television fan second. If Joss called me up and was like, "Hey, decide whether I finish out Season 8 in comic form or if I scrap it and do another televised season." I'd be like, "Stay the course, man." With Season 8 as a comic book we'll have three and a half years instead of five or six months. With a comic book we have more storytelling options, allowing things impossible anywhere else, like The Chain or Renee's death. We have a complicated, complex, subtle story/plot that has been on a slow burn for twenty issues, and is going to explode soon. By the time we get to the end it'll be like we're riding a rocket and we'll be staring back at early issues agog at how we could have missed such important clues. At the same time Season 8 is more character driven, more intimate than the show had been in a long time. And, to finish up, Season 8 is allowing us to experience an expanded Buffyverse mythology. There's an entire underground culture with Slimefolk and faeries and Ravenfolk and evil demons! There are fiery tree people in the forests of Scotland! There's whatever on earth Saga Vasuki is. And anybody remember those five elementals whose realm Willow escaped to when she was being tortured by Warren? Basically, what i"m saying is that I love Season 8 because...
1. Joss' creativity is unleashed. For the first time in, like, ever. This is an awesome thing, in the original sense. This is the guy who had an alien race try to kill humanity by firing a 300-mile-long bullet from the center of their planet to earth. And people are complaining about some talking trees. :lol: He doesn't have to worry about budget, so he can have any set, plot, action, and monster he can imagine. He doesn't have to worry about actor availability or skill or chemistry or physical appearance or unexpected surprises like pregnancies, so he can bring in any character he chooses and put them in any situation he wants. He doesn't have to worry about network executives or ratings or bad fan reactions, because there's no chance of season 8 being canceled and he so doesn't have to cater to network notes or which character is popular or not. For the first time since he made the movie (and even then he had budget to worry about and a studio that changed his ending) he's able to tell Buffy's story exactly as he wants.

[Sosa lola]

That's not a story, that's an arc.

What's the difference between an arc and a story? Take S2 for example, what's the arc and what's the story there.

I can see where your problem with the season comes from, koos. It's taking forever. It annoys me, too. But like I said, I'm patient. I'm also glad we can have Buffy for two more years. Even though we get a few pages each month.

I think we'll apprecaite it more once it's done, and we read it from the start to the finish. The good thing about a 40 issue season is the depth. They've got lots of room for deep storylines and character-issues.

[Koos]

What's the difference between an arc and a story? Take S2 for example, what's the arc and what's the story there.

In short: the arc is the outline of the story.

The difference is in the details, which is kind of lacking. For example: Buffy in Fray. Buffy's transported to her arcline, we get a lot of textual explanation and *bang*, *bang*, she is brought in a situation wherein Fray is standing against her. That's not a story. That's going directly to the moment where you want your 'story' to get. Instead of using the extra issues to flesh this out more instead using it for extra stuff. Now Joss is rushing it like we're reading the outline of the story and at the same time we have side stories.


In S2 we have a built up to the moment where Angel is turned into Angelus. Than we have built up to the moment Buffy has to sent Angel to Hell. This is all done with subtility while at the same have the *same* cast have their adventures, action and character-depth.

I can see where your problem with the season comes from, koos. It's taking forever. It annoys me, too. But like I said, I'm patient. I'm also glad we can have Buffy for two more years. Even though we get a few pages each month.

They also can give us an extra season instead of blowing seasons up in size.


I think we'll apprecaite it more once it's done, and we read it from the start to the finish. The good thing about a 40 issue season is the depth. They've got lots of room for deep storylines and character-issues.

Except that they don't. They are spending the rest of the time; five issues on 10 characters. How can there be any character depth for anyone? Also five separate story arcs? How can that be fleshed out in five issues? Then we have 5 issue Oz-arc. So, that's focussing on a character who is not part of the main-cast. And then Joss has to wrap everything up. Perhaps he can bring us than more, but I'm doubtful.

[Skippcomet]

I just know that somebody will, sooner or later, complain that XavierZane's first two points are actually things that they aren't enjoying, so I'm going to address one thing he mentions somewhere in there: actor availability.

I've seen it addressed somewhere or other that without actor availability being an issue, Joss is free to bring in any character he wants -- including, more to the point, that Joss can bring any character back from the dead that he wants. We've seen it done with Warren in Season Eight, and at least a third of the characters over in After the Fall were/are still dead. But as far as Season Eight is concerned, I've seen this point brought most often in terms of fans wanting/demanding that Joss bring back either Tara or Anya.

Frankly, I hope he doesn't bring either back. Yes, both characters have their fans; yes, both characters' established romantic relationships have their fans. And yet, I feel it necessary to point out that the writers seemed to consider both character primarily in terms of their romantic relationships with established Scoobies for about...oh, 90% of the time for Tara, and 95% of the time for Anya. Sure, Tara got some development outside of being Willow's girlfriend...but that was mostly to twist the knife further when Tara died. And as for Anya....after Selfless, the writers pretty much lost interest in her. Espenson admitted as much in a Succubus Club interview. Heck, if you remember back to Season Three, the writers didn't seem to know what to do with Cordelia after she broke-up with Xander and The Wish...until they brought her back to the Scooby Gang by having her flirt with/crush on Wesley.

I've seen it argued that fans just miss Anya and Tara, especially Anya's brand of humor and how she reacts to things, and we all know by now that the main objective to having Tara brought back seems to be having her reunite with Willow. And I don't begrudge fans that...mostly. But honestly, I can't imagine fans of Anya being satisfied with having Anya just there in the background, making her comments to what's happening to/with the other characters...especially in the case of Xander. Sooner or later, people would start grumbling that they want more development on the Xander/Anya relationship front...or at least, more "closure." And to me, that would just be ME re-treading old water....didn't they have break-up sex at least once, twice if you don't count the Kitchen Floor Sex as It's-the-End-of-the-World-and-Everybody-Else-is-Getting-Some Sex? Mainly, I don't honestly see Joss doing anything really new with Anya, and if he wouldn't do anything new with her, I don't see any point to bringing her back. Actor availability no longer being an issue isn't, IMO, a good enough reason on its own.

Your comments here are welcome, of course.

[hawkedup]

Now this is discussion!

Re: Joss’ Creativity: It’s gotten me thinking that perhaps this no budget/no restrictions things is limiting his creativity. He can go with whatever first pops into his head instead of working it like a puzzle or problem. He has admitted many times in the commentaries that some of his best and most creative work was done because he had to sit down and really think around problems of budget and actor availability. In the Serenity commentary he talks about how every single one of his favorite shots happened on accident because they lost their dolly or couldn’t afford another blue screen shot and he was forced to direct.

Re: Mysteries: Season 8 is all over the place, and there are already questions posed that he has no intention of answering. That’s what I don’t like. It’s the reason I can’t watch Lost or Battlestar Galactica anymore. It’s EASY to come up with mysteries and questions, but if you aren’t going to follow through with the answers… I wish I knew that all these mysteries and questions would be answered, but I know they won’t.

Re: Focus: I completely agree with this statement:

They are spending the rest of the time; five issues on 10 characters. How can there be any character depth for anyone? Also five separate story arcs? How can that be fleshed out in five issues? Then we have 5 issue Oz-arc. So, that's focussing on a character who is not part of the main-cast. And then Joss has to wrap everything up. Perhaps he can bring us than more, but I'm doubtful.

The focus is taken away from the main cast to be put on characters from the past who are only going to be around for 1 arc. Why not use the cast from Season 7 to continue the story? And if you are going to bring a character back (or create new characters) keep them around for a while.

Has anyone read Y: The Last Man? That’s a prime example of having a strong core cast and a huge secondary (but still important) cast while unfolding a single HUGE story slowly, methodically, and still being able to do one-shots here and there.

[XavierZane]

Now this is discussion!

Re: Joss’ Creativity: It’s gotten me thinking that perhaps this no budget/no restrictions things is limiting his creativity. He can go with whatever first pops into his head instead of working it like a puzzle or problem. He has admitted many times in the commentaries that some of his best and most creative work was done because he had to sit down and really think around problems of budget and actor availability. In the Serenity commentary he talks about how every single one of his favorite shots happened on accident because they lost their dolly or couldn’t afford another blue screen shot and he was forced to direct.

Limitations and problems like that engender a certain kind of creativity to be sure, but I don't think the lack of them limits creativity. A novelist's creativity isn't affected by lack of practical problems, nor are comic book writers. Not being reigned in by practical and logistical considerations isn't a detriment in of itself.

Re: Mysteries: Season 8 is all over the place, and there are already questions posed that he has no intention of answering. That’s what I don’t like. It’s the reason I can’t watch Lost or Battlestar Galactica anymore. It’s EASY to come up with mysteries and questions, but if you aren’t going to follow through with the answers… I wish I knew that all these mysteries and questions would be answered, but I know they won’t.

What questions has he posed that he has no intention of answering? And how do you, not even halfway through the season, know that they won't be answered? The assumption that the writers aren't going to answer the questions raised seems like a pretty big one, especially considering the amount of them that were answered in the Season 4 finale of Lost. If all questions were answered and no more were raised, then the show would just be some assh0les standing on an island, looking at each other and going, "...Yup."
It's the same issue I take with fans who use that argument with Lost or BSG. I hate that attitude. The creators should tell the story exactly as they see fit, and shouldn't be expected to indulge the fans just because the fans are impatient. But, no, fans abandon their show and the creators are forced to jump through hoops to get the ratings back up, and then we end up with Season 3 of Lost or Season 3 of BSG. Or worse...Season 3 of Veronica Mars. *shudder* It's that appeasement of fans that I'm glad Joss is rid of with the series.

The focus is taken away from the main cast to be put on characters from the past who are only going to be around for 1 arc. Why not use the cast from Season 7 to continue the story? And if you are going to bring a character back (or create new characters) keep them around for a while.

Has anyone read Y: The Last Man? That’s a prime example of having a strong core cast and a huge secondary (but still important) cast while unfolding a single HUGE story slowly, methodically, and still being able to do one-shots here and there.

Y had seventy issues, though. Season 8 only has 40. That right there makes things a little different. I wish Season 8 were seventy issues. Also, BKV is frankly just a better comic book writer than Joss at this point, and Y is his masterpiece. Nothing against Joss, he just hasn't been doing it as long as Brian. Really it's unfair to compare Y to pretty much anything this side of Watchmen, V for Vendetta, or Maus (which, dude, if you haven't read those you need to). That being said, Y and Season 8 have inherently different structures that have nothing to do with length or quality of authorship. Y was a classic quest story with one main mystery and one main character. Season 8 is an ensemble with at least two character arcs driving the plot (Willow and Buffy), lots of little mysteries, and a classic 'overcome the enemy' structure. For all the obstacles and villains in Y, there was never one main baddie to defeat, except maybe death.

That being said...how awesome would it be to see Xander and Buffy on a long quest, with Xander in the Yorick role and Buffy as his 355? :heart:

[hawkedup]

It would be awesome is what it'd be! Any three to five characters, really.

You make a good point in pointing out that there is still time for questions to be answered. I jumped the gun. I'm just so sick of executive producers not having any plans. Do you know how the final five cylons were chosen? Halfway through the third season, they wrote everyone's name on a board and had everyone (including camera guys and staff writers) just randomly vote on who they should be...

Tell me why I should have faith in a creative team that would do this?

And I didn't stop watching Lost because it lacked answers. I stopped watching Lost when the show became predictable and the characters started acting illogically for the simple reason to move the plot along. I'll probably watch season 4 on DVD just to finish the series and hope that it goes back to the awesome nature that was the first two seasons.

I loved V and am reading Watchmen now. :)

Re: Limitations: I definately agree with you. My point was that maybe JOSS works better with the those limitations.

Either way, you guys have convinced me to stick it out for at least a little while longer.

[cheryl4ba]

Firstly, I love Joss. Nobody said he can only do wrong.

Silly, rabbit.

He's just doing a bad job with season 8, and I’ve seen many people skeptical about this series but keep protecting it because it is Joss. And I personally know half a dozen people who only buy the comics because it is Buffy, hoping that it gets good sometime in the future. Hell I AM one of these people. I really stopped enjoying it during Wolves at the Gate and yet I keep on buying them just in case they get good because it is Joss and he has done such amazing stuff in the past. So, if you are not one of these people that I’m talking about and you are an exception to the rule…. Then…. Why are you responding?

Yeah. Everyone has different opinions. The last refuge of the blindly devoted. I keep trying to get people to explain why they are liking it. I’m HOPING that they come to me and explain a few things I might have missed that make the series click in my head and I start liking it again. I WANT TO LIKE THIS SERIES. You guys are obviously seeing something that I’m not.

So, why is this series worth reading?

This series is worth reading because we finally have Buffy, Xander, Willow and Giles back. We are being shown what came next. Maybe it's that simple for some of us. Maybe it's enough, just having them back.

[KingofCretins]

"Y: The Last Man" is the best story ever told in the comic medium, bar none*. Yes, I include "Watchmen". Yes, I include "Sin City". It simply destroys all comic fiction ever, and most literary, television, and movie fiction as well.

So, yeah, it's a completely inappropriate standard for Season 8 to be held to.

I think Season 8 is actually pretty tightly written so far... it's just an expansive story, and that's what's making some people uncertain. They weren't prepared for how thoroughly Joss would embrace the medium.

Returning characters? I don't mind them. If the people coming back had come back during Season 7, nobody would have thought anything of it.

I don't think we *need*specific characters, but I do agree that the lack of that slightly acerbic, whacky character like Cordy or Anya is noticeable. "Buffy" doesn't miss that as badly as the "Star Wars" prequels missed Han Solo, but still.

I, also, really enjoy the refocus on Buffy's relationships with her two best friends, and the romantic possibility with Xander based on her dream and the other early subtext. And, yeah, an arc that focuses on them in "quest" mode would be fantastic.

*Y: The Last Man -- we probably need some threadage on this in the "miscellaneous"/"TV, Movies, Books" forum. I actually already fancast Sarah Michelle Gellar not as 355, but as Hero. And while my current best guess at Yorick would be Jason Dohring, a younger Nick Brendan would have been awesome.

[hayes62]

I’ve read Y:The Last Man but rather than best story ever told I thought it was a good story that outgrew its original premise and for that reason the final trade was a real let down. Admittedly this response may be something that gender plays a part in. With S8 I have confidence that Joss isn’t going to do that, his beginning can be shaky but he consistently gives good endings.

In S2 we have a built up to the moment where Angel is turned into Angelus. Than we have built up to the moment Buffy has to sent Angel to Hell. This is all done with subtility while at the same have the *same* cast have their adventures, action and character-depth.

S8 is currently at the What’s My Line? stage of S2 and I don’t recall anyone watching the series unspoiled back in the day who had any idea of what it was ‘building’ to then. With hindsight it can be rationalized but the first half of S2 really was all over the place as far as what became the arc went. S8 has a much clearer emotional through line. Even without any idea of what’s to come plotwise, the Buffy of it is a thing of beauty, the Willow is worrying but clearly meant to be and the Xander is stalwart (but I thought he had a great arc in S7 so am probably on a completely different page of a different book in a different language to most people here).

[XavierZane]

You make a good point in pointing out that there is still time for questions to be answered. I jumped the gun. I'm just so sick of executive producers not having any plans. Do you know how the final five cylons were chosen? Halfway through the third season, they wrote everyone's name on a board and had everyone (including camera guys and staff writers) just randomly vote on who they should be...T

Tell me why I should have faith in a creative team that would do this?

The fact that they write a show where you expect them to have a plan puts them miles ahead of most television in my book. Most shows are formula shows that work the formula until they get canceled. They can be really good, but in the end they're not doing much to push the boundaries of the medium. BSG is. The problem with shows like BSG and Lost, that set themselves up as more than the usual fare, that acknowledge a beginning, a middle, and an end, is that, due to the very nature of the medium, nobody ever knows when the middle or the end will be. Lost was so popular at first it could have lasted 9 seasons. BSG was always seconds away from being canceled. The show runners were constantly having to tweak their outline, hurry key ideas and events or delay them, based on how popular or how close to being canceled the shows were. In the end it becomes guesswork as to whether or not the time is right to introduce what they need to introduce. Now that both Lost and BSG have definite ending dates they've been able to stop that and they've gotten better than ever.

And I didn't stop watching Lost because it lacked answers. I stopped watching Lost when the show became predictable and the characters started acting illogically for the simple reason to move the plot along. I'll probably watch season 4 on DVD just to finish the series and hope that it goes back to the awesome nature that was the first two seasons.

You're in for a treat! Season 4 is a real return to form. As good as Season 1 (personally it's my favorite season).

Re: Limitations: I definately agree with you. My point was that maybe JOSS works better with the those limitations.

We'll have to see, I guess. In the end it all comes down to personal taste. I've loved most everything about Season 8 so far, even the stuff that is anathema to a lot of people. My biggest complaint is that Joss seems hesitant to give us a peek into Buffy's thoughts, or Xander's, or any of the usual characters. He seems to only use internal monologue as a setting up device, like in the first arc or the first issue of ToYL. If each issue were as intimate as The Chain or what BKV did with NFFY, I would love this book exponentially more.

Either way, you guys have convinced me to stick it out for at least a little while longer.

Huzzah! :2party:

"Y: The Last Man" is the best story ever told in the comic medium, bar none*. Yes, I include "Watchmen". Yes, I include "Sin City". It simply destroys all comic fiction ever, and most literary, television, and movie fiction as well.

I don't know about bar none. It's definitely in my top series of all time, but...well...

5. Walking Dead
4. Transmetropolitan
3. Strangers in Paradise
2. Y: The Last Man
1. Sandman

Sandman, dude...Sandman! Also, it's kinda hard to compare a basically mainstream, ongoing book like Y with memoirs like Maus or Blankets, or even 12 issue maxis like Watchmen or V for Vendetta to call it the best story ever in comic form.

[hawkedup]

Will someone start a thread somewhere dedicated to other comic book series? I'd really like to talk to you guys about all these comic book titles being thrown around (the ones I've read and especially the ones I've never heard of). Maybe a thread already exists and I missed it?

[XavierZane]

I took a look around and I couldn't find one. I'll create one in the Misc. forum

[Rowan Hawthorn]

Now this is discussion!

Yes, it is - and it probably could have come around to this a lot sooner by actually asking people sooner what it was they liked about the comic instead of just trashing it and the creative team. Give people an actual opening and it's amazing what can go on - back when the show was airing, I've seen single threads over in the a.t.b-v-s newsgroup go on for hundreds of posts (and not even 'shipper threads!) Wish I hadn't been gone all weekend, but pretty much everything I'd have said has already been said. So, I'll just add a couple of things.

How do you feel about the Buffy/Satsu relationship? Don't you feel it negates how serious the Willow/Tara thing was? Also, I'm wondering, what you think this relationship adds to the series that couldn't have been done in another way?
No, it in no way negates the Willow/Tara relationship. Put it in a real-world context: something like 40%+- of all US marriages end in divorce; does that negate the other 60%? Of course not. What Buffy/Satsu does do, however, is throw another curve in Willow's relationship with Buffy; Willow claims she never wanted to sleep with Buffy, and that's probably true, but she's miffed for some reason.

As far as the last part of that question, hardly anything can be done in any story that couldn't be done in some other way (if that wasn't the case, we'd only ever have had one vampire story - over and over and over...)

I like that I can hear the actors speaking their lines in my head. There have been a few pieces of dialogue that didn't ring true to the characters we've known - but then, that was true for the TV shows, too (who was that masked Wicca in AtS' "Orpheus", anyway.) For the most part, the dialogue has been dead on.

I like that I'm not getting the answers handed to me on a silver platter with every issue. I like having to think about things (and can I digress here to give a big "Yay, 'Sandman'!" and also, "Yay, 'Strangers In Paradise'.") and I like not knowing for sure what's going to happen.

I do regret the length of time it takes for each issue, but there's not much that can be done about that; I'd far rather do this - predominantly four-issue arcs, all contributing to an overall series arc - than fall back on the 1960s-style set-it-up and knock-it-down single-issue stories.

[vampmogs]

The difference is in the details, which is kind of lacking. For example: Buffy in Fray. Buffy's transported to her arcline, we get a lot of textual explanation and *bang*, *bang*, she is brought in a situation wherein Fray is standing against her. That's not a story. That's going directly to the moment where you want your 'story' to get.

That's exactly like 'The Wish' when "bang, bang" Cordy makes a wish and she's standing in an alternate universe? "Time Of Your Life" is important to the whole arc but at the end of the day it's just another episode, it isn't the cumulative finishing point of a seasonal arc like you'd get in the season finale.

In S2 we have a built up to the moment where Angel is turned into Angelus. Than we have built up to the moment Buffy has to sent Angel to Hell. This is all done with subtility while at the same have the *same* cast have their adventures, action and character-depth.

What's the difference with season eight? At the end of the very first arc, 'The Long Way Home' we have General Voll tell Buffy, "You're at war with the human race" and we now know from spoilers that's exactly what happens in the five-part standalone arc we're getting very soon. That makes it clear Joss knew where he was heading.

They also can give us an extra season instead of blowing seasons up in size.

The way I understood it Joss expanded the series not to "blow it up" but because he couldn't contain this big story he's working on in the original twenty-odd pages he was planning on.


Re: Mysteries: Season 8 is all over the place, and there are already questions posed that he has no intention of answering.

You're jumping the gun there, we're just reaching half way point nor you or I or anyone else has any clue if he's going to answer these questions. But chances are.. he will? I mean we found out Dawn was the key in the fifth episode of season five, we didn't learn what the key was or even what Glory's plans for the key were until episode twenty of the same season. I don't understand why people expect any different from season eight?

[RuFio]

Firstly, I love Joss. Nobody said he can only do wrong.

Silly, rabbit.

He's just doing a bad job with season 8, and I’ve seen many people skeptical about this series but keep protecting it because it is Joss. And I personally know half a dozen people who only buy the comics because it is Buffy, hoping that it gets good sometime in the future. Hell I AM one of these people. I really stopped enjoying it during Wolves at the Gate and yet I keep on buying them just in case they get good because it is Joss and he has done such amazing stuff in the past. So, if you are not one of these people that I’m talking about and you are an exception to the rule…. Then…. Why are you responding?

Yeah. Everyone has different opinions. The last refuge of the blindly devoted. I keep trying to get people to explain why they are liking it. I’m HOPING that they come to me and explain a few things I might have missed that make the series click in my head and I start liking it again. I WANT TO LIKE THIS SERIES. You guys are obviously seeing something that I’m not.

So, why is this series worth reading?

Why Do I Like Buffy Season 8? Firstly, because it's BUFFY! Whether someone wants to admit it or not, it IS canon. Quite obviously, I'm a fan of buffy, her story and the verse so having more buffyness is just all around good in my opinion. Whether it's fantastic like season 2 or so so like season 7 (or whatever your opinion of a season), it is still a part of buffys overall story. In that regard, I think it is at least worth reading-if not owning.
So on top of respecting it for what it is, I just find it damn enjoyable. The fantastical elements are in full force and contrary to many naysayers I think the characters really haven't acted out of character at all.I mean, at first I was like WTF when we learned Buffy had robbed a bank. But then I realized that this is buffys character in season 8 and she's evolving and she said it was a victimless crime-which I do kind of agree with lol.

But whether you enjoy the stories is a matter of taste to be honest. That's why some people prefer season 2 opposed to season 6 or vice versa or whatever. Personally I like the settings of season 8. How can you not say it's exciting going to and seeing our characters in Scotland, Tokyo & New York City?!? I especially like the castle headquarters in scotland. I always loved the library and magic box and everything that used to happen in those places is happening in the castle! It's just cool and fits buffy so well.

I enjoyed the story with faith and genevieve. It would've been so hot in live action. Seeing faith in that ball gown, doing an english accent, the fancy setting, the freaking gargoyles!

I also really happen to enjoy the satsu/buffy fling. It was totally unexpected but I ended up loving what it added to buffy's character. I also look forward to where there realtionship goes and ends up.

SO in the end, if you're anything like these people that have no patience for the story to unfold, but want to like it-I suggest you wait until the season is finished to read it. There will be no waiting for the next issue & you'll be able to see the season as the whole it's obviously meant to be!Anyone who is a buffyverse fan KNOWS, each season is like a puzzle and you can't appreciate the whole thing by just looking at a single piece.