Whose fault was it? [Archive]

litzie

15-09-08, 12:44 PM

I've been rewatching season five and thinking more and more about Buffy and Riley's relationship. I'm still no riley fan, but I've found myself routing for them during the series of episodes where they start to fall apart. And I've really started to wonder - whose fault was their breakup?

I think in a lot of ways, the show presents it as if it was Buffy's fault - for not opening up, not letting Riley in enough. And obviously he did bad stuff too, but that was because he was responding to the fact that he loved her and didn't think she loved him back. Pretty much Xander's speech gives that impression the most...but so does the scene between buffy and riley in the practice gym.

Originally I think I bought into that...Riley was always getting hit over the head with how Buffy didn't love him as much as Angel (per multiple scenes with Spike), how she needed darkness and drama (Dawn's comments near the carosel in Shadow), how she didn't think he was strong enough (Dawn's comment in There's no place like home, and Buffy's reactions in that episode, in Fool for Love, and in Out of my Mind, among others). And buffy obviously doesn't open up to him about Dawn (Family? I think? the scene where kids are experimenting with shortness), doesn't open up to him about how she feels when her mother is in the hospital (Shadow)

But actually, on this most recent rewatch, I've found myself thinking that Riley is a gigantic idiot! He listens to Spike, of all people, about what buffy wants. He takes dawn's comments, which are actually very innocuous and in the case of the carousel scene, extremely well-meant, and twists them to support his perception that Buffy doesn't love him because he's not dark enough. In that carousel scene, Dawn actually says that Buffy's happier with him, that she's better with him, that dawn is glad Riley's there for Buffy - and he takes it to mean Buffy doesn't love him as much.

And the thing that I hate most of all is Riley's reaction to Buffy at the end of Shadow. He comes to the hospital to support her, but he doesn't really want to give her what she needs - he wants her to break down and need him. Which is the most selfish thing I think Riley does the entire series, including the weird vamp biting. Because...it is SO not fair to try to make someone's grief be what you want it to be. Buffy had just found out her mom had brain cancer, and she did have to be strong for her mother and sister. For Riley to take that as a sign that she didn't need him is just - ugh!

So I'm wondering - what do you guys think? I know Riley is very few people's favorite character, but objectively - was the breakup as much his fault as I'm making it out to be? (not that I'm saying it was completely his fault...just mostly!) Or was Buffy pushing-away girl, driving him to it? Or was it no one's fault? Or both?

Nina

15-09-08, 01:03 PM

I think that it was a 50/50 thing; Riley wanted more and a different Buffy ... and Buffy didn't work very hard for the relation, besides it was the start of her 'normal people don't understand me' period.

I think that season 4 had two big differences; 1) Riley was somebody ... he was strong, important ... he was more than Buffy's man. 2) Buffy was a normal girl in that season, she was close with the normal people and wanted to be one ... and felt like one.

When those two things changed, it became harder and Buffy had no time/intention to work harder .... while Riley had nothing else on his mind. He became more insecure with the day, while Buffy distanced herself from him.

Both were wrong and both screwed up.

edit:
But I do blame the writers for what they did to Riley, some of his actions didn't make sense ... listening to Spike, becoming really pushy and going to the vampires ... they wanted him out and did it on a pretty nasty way. Reminds me of Logan in GG, when the end was coming they wanted Rory single ... so Logan proposed out of nowhere, she said no and he didn't want to see her anymore. I love Logan and I like Riley, and those things were both cheap and a big let down ... that wasn't fair to the character (and their fans).

ciderdrinker

15-09-08, 02:04 PM

I'm not a Riley hater - and I think that Xander's comments about him being the one that comes along once in a lifetime are very true at that moment in Buffy's life. I do think that Buffy did hold him at a distance, but not intentionally so and Riley did jump the gun at his perceptions of whether she loved him or not. So basically I think they were equal in the blame stakes.

Riley had that man thing of wanting to protect his woman, and have her rely on him completely - which in most situations is perfectly fine for a relationship, but the problem was that he was dating a woman who could completely stand on her own two feet and it's a bit stupid to expect a woman like Buffy to be "needy"

And the thing that I hate most of all is Riley's reaction to Buffy at the end of Shadow. He comes to the hospital to support her, but he doesn't really want to give her what she needs - he wants her to break down and need him. Which is the most selfish thing I think Riley does the entire series, including the weird vamp biting. Because...it is SO not fair to try to make someone's grief be what you want it to be. Buffy had just found out her mom had brain cancer, and she did have to be strong for her mother and sister. For Riley to take that as a sign that she didn't need him is just - ugh!

I agree somewhat to this. Riley is being an idiot, but also just being a man like I said above. He wants her to trust him and break down on him, but he can't see that there is too much else going on in her head for her to do that. She doesn't need him to be the shoulder to cry on, because she has to be strong but she does need him to be there when she relaxes - like when Joyce is given the all clear. She is holding everything inside and the last thing she wants to do is let it all out - she herself says that she feels like all the tension has left her body once Joyce has been operated on, that's when she relaxes. When Riley takes that as rejection he's not being the supportive guy everyone thinks he is.

He listens to Spike, of all people, about what buffy wants. He takes dawn's comments, which are actually very innocuous and in the case of the carousel scene, extremely well-meant, and twists them to support his perception that Buffy doesn't love him because he's not dark enough. In that carousel scene, Dawn actually says that Buffy's happier with him, that she's better with him, that dawn is glad Riley's there for Buffy - and he takes it to mean Buffy doesn't love him as much.

I wouldn't think he's being stupid, just confused - this to him is confirmation of what he already suspects, that the passion he feels for her isn't reflected in her for him. It's as if, in his head, everyone around him knows that she doesn't love him, and they're trying to tell him without actually telling him. And he's right in a way, except the part where she doesn't love him. She does, but just not in the way he wants her to. Also, to be fair Spike is right - he can see through Buffy's denial about what she thinks a relationship should be.

Buffy needed someone completely different to her cradle-robbing-creature-of-the-night boyfriend that she had in Angel, but it was her head telling her that - her heart wanted what Angel (and later Spike) provided - a bit of monster in her man. She herself didn't come to terms with that until much later (season 6/7). I think the events of the Angelus situation in Season 2 affected her so deeply that she couldn't give herself as much as she wanted to. She just can't see it. When she tells him in "Out of my Mind" that she's opened up to him, she's not lying at all but it's only what she believes on a surface level. She's deluding herself about their relationship. Even back then there's a part of her that wants him to be the super strong, dangerous guy and her head is telling her not to think that way - she's suppressing those feelings, so she genuinely thinks that she's become the perfect girlfriend to Riley. If Buffy had met Riley before Angel and never had experienced everything with Angelus - having to send her lover to hell and all that, then I don't doubt that Riley would be the one and only for her. She is at fault because she can't allow herself to get as close to Riley as she did with Angel.

So, yeah, I think they're both to blame. Buffy for not allowing him to be "the one", and Riley for not realising there was more to it and not giving her time to work through her feelings. Probably Buffy more so though...

Sosa lola

15-09-08, 02:32 PM

I'm still in episode five with my S5 rewatch and here what I've noticed so far:

Buffy vs. Dracula

Riley's confusion about Buffy's obsession with vampires and easily falling under their thrall is the first step in this season to his storyline of insecurity and inferiority.

Real Me

Buffy and Riley were totally cute in this episode. Everything is fine and dandy here.

The Replacement

BUFFY: Riley, do you wish-
RILEY: No.
BUFFY: No? You don't even know what I was gonna say.
RILEY: Yes, I do. You wanted to know if I wished you got hit by the ferula-gemina, got split in two.
BUFFY: Well, you have been kind of rankly about the whole slayer gig. Instead of having slayer Buffy, you could have Buffy Buffy.
RILEY: Hey. I *have* Buffy Buffy. Being the slayer's part of who you are. You keep thinking I don't get that, but...
BUFFY: It's just ... I know how ... un-fun it can be. The bad hours, frequent bruising, cranky monsters...
RILEY: Buffy... if you led a perfectly normal life, you wouldn't be half as crazy as you are. I gotta have that. I gotta have it all. I'm talkin' toes, elbows, the whole bad-ice-skating-movie obsession, everything. There's no part of you I'm not in love with.

:)

RILEY: (grinning) Hey, I'm well aware of how lucky I am. Like, lottery lucky. Buffy's like nobody else in the world. When I'm with her it's like ... it's like I'm split in two. Half of me is just ... on fire, going crazy if I'm not touching her. The other half ... is so still and peaceful ... just perfectly content. Just knows: this is the one. (Smiles a little, continues packing for a moment, then looks up at Xander again.) But she doesn't love me.

:(

Out of My Mind

Buffy doesn't want Riley or Spike patrolling with her. Why? Is she more comfortable doing it alone? Both of them are strong and willing to help, way more than Xander and Willow back in high school, so what's the problem? Her "alone" patrols started from S5, from the season Buffy made an interest in learning more about her slayer essence.

Riley's weird behavior in the training room is the result of the comment Spike made the earlier night about Buffy not needing Riley and Buffy's less enthusiastic features when she saw him at patrol. Both had gotten into him.

The Buffy/Riley sex scene… Riley really wants to show her that he could keep up with her.

The Buffy/Riley conversation shows me that he really wants to be strong for her. Not for him. He's doing this to be equal with her because he thinks that's what she wants. And I believe that Buffy really doesn't care about that. Her interests in love and choices in men are not that predictable. I love this conversation. Buffy and Riley opened up to each other and, look, they're still together and they're doing the right thing. Which brings me to the reason of their break up: lack of communication. I can't wait for the next episodes to see how it's gonna go wrong, because now, they're tight again.

Graham's speech to Riley about being nothing right now. He's the mission's boyfriend, but not the mission. He has no purpose but being Buffy's boyfriend. Love isn't enough and I can't really blame Riley for that. I mean, who wants to be defined solely as someone's lover? You have to have an identity for yourself, not just as a support to some other person. And I think in Buffy's case, she never tried to encourage that in Riley. Buffy, in fact, actually takes away the one thing Riley's good at, by not letting him patrol and take part in the slayage. It seems pretty obvious to me now that he would eventually go back to the military - like Graham says, who wants to be the mission's boyfriend?

No Place Like Home

"You can't patrol, Buffy said. She also said you look cuter when you're all weak and kitteny and she'd better go solo or you'll get hurt." Okay, that's not something a man or a woman wants to hear, it's like Dawn saying as clear as the sun at noon: You're useless.

Buffy's attempt later to make Riley feel useful is adorable, though. But then Riley says this: "Instead of you taking care of me, why don't we take care of each other?"

This is what I got so far because this is the last ep I rewatched. But I don't believe what some said about Riley needing to be the man who takes care of his woman. So far he did not come off like that, as I presented, he came off as a guy who wanted an equal relationship, not a guy who wanted to be stronger than his girlfriend.

Enisy

15-09-08, 02:50 PM

This is what I got so far because this is the last ep I rewatched. But I don't believe what some said about Riley needing to be the man who takes care of his woman. So far he did not come off like that, as I presented, he came off as a guy who wanted an equal relationship, not a guy who wanted to be stronger than his girlfriend.

This is also evident by the woman he ended up marrying. Equal relationship, right there.

litzie

15-09-08, 03:00 PM

I think that season 4 had two big differences; 1) Riley was somebody ... he was strong, important ... he was more than Buffy's man. 2) Buffy was a normal girl in that season, she was close with the normal people and wanted to be one ... and felt like one.

Especially in the beginning of season five, I don't get the 'I'm not normal/I'm better than normal' vibe from Buffy any more than I do in season 4 (ie yoko factor). I think the difference between the seasons is that in Season 5, buffy distances herself from her friends/riley because she's overwhelmed by what's going on with her mother and her family in general...which, maybe similar result, but the latter motivation makes me more sympathetic to Buffy in this situation.

Riley had that man thing of wanting to protect his woman, and have her rely on him completely - which in most situations is perfectly fine for a relationship, but the problem was that he was dating a woman who could completely stand on her own two feet and it's a bit stupid to expect a woman like Buffy to be "needy"
I don't think that is fine for most relationships! I mean...I'm sure some relationships are like that, but I think there are plenty of non-superpowered women who want a level of equality from their partner.

I wouldn't think he's being stupid, just confused - this to him is confirmation of what he already suspects, that the passion he feels for her isn't reflected in her for him. It's as if, in his head, everyone around him knows that she doesn't love him, and they're trying to tell him without actually telling him. And he's right in a way, except the part where she doesn't love him. She does, but just not in the way he wants her to. Also, to be fair Spike is right - he can see through Buffy's denial about what she thinks a relationship should be.

I'm mostly with you there..

Buffy needed someone completely different to her cradle-robbing-creature-of-the-night boyfriend that she had in Angel, but it was her head telling her that - her heart wanted what Angel (and later Spike) provided - a bit of monster in her man. She herself didn't come to terms with that until much later (season 6/7). I think the events of the Angelus situation in Season 2 affected her so deeply that she couldn't give herself as much as she wanted to. She just can't see it. When she tells him in "Out of my Mind" that she's opened up to him, she's not lying at all but it's only what she believes on a surface level. She's deluding herself about their relationship. Even back then there's a part of her that wants him to be the super strong, dangerous guy and her head is telling her not to think that way - she's suppressing those feelings, so she genuinely thinks that she's become the perfect girlfriend to Riley. If Buffy had met Riley before Angel and never had experienced everything with Angelus - having to send her lover to hell and all that, then I don't doubt that Riley would be the one and only for her. She is at fault because she can't allow herself to get as close to Riley as she did with Angel.

So, yeah, I think they're both to blame. Buffy for not allowing him to be "the one", and Riley for not realising there was more to it and not giving her time to work through her feelings. Probably Buffy more so though...

I do see your points here, and I do think they were both at least partly to blame...but I guess I feel like Buffy has a way better excuse? Not only the Angelus stuff, which I think you're probably right about but also is the kind of baggage that in a subsequent relationship shouldn't get excused but should be worked through...but also the stuff with her mother/dawn. And I think Riley should get more of the blame for failing to really talk to her about it...he basically tries a bit in Family when Buffy won't tell him about Dawn, and he tries a bit in Out of My Mind - but they never actually talk about it. He never starts a conversation with I statements or tells her how he's feeling...he basically just gets on the offensive and accuses her of not opening up to him.

ETA:

Graham's speech to Riley about being nothing right now. He's the mission's boyfriend, but not the mission. He has no purpose but being Buffy's boyfriend. Love isn't enough and I can't really blame Riley for that. I mean, who wants to be defined solely as someone's lover? You have to have an identity for yourself, not just as a support to some other person. And I think in Buffy's case, she never tried to encourage that in Riley. Buffy, in fact, actually takes away the one thing Riley's good at, by not letting him patrol and take part in the slayage. It seems pretty obvious to me now that he would eventually go back to the military - like Graham says, who wants to be the mission's boyfriend?
This is an interesting point, that Buffy never encouraged Riley to develop his own life - in fact she never really seemed to notice. But it is another moment of a failure to communicate in that Riley never talks about that with her - never tells her that he feels purposeless in Sunnydale, that he feels like she's his only reason for being there.

NancyBoy

15-09-08, 03:09 PM

If Buffy had met Riley before Angel and never had experienced everything with Angelus - having to send her lover to hell and all that, then I don't doubt that Riley would be the one and only for her. She is at fault because she can't allow herself to get as close to Riley as she did with Angel.

I have to disagree. I am a Riley Hater, but I can still acknowledge the fact that he IS the perfect man, the guy you don't stumble upon so very often. However, I don't believe he was the perfect man for Buffy. Buffy is the slayer, and she doesn't need someone who will sacrfice everything he got in life for her. She doesn't need someone to cry on when her life sucks. Or at least, it's not the main thing she needs in a man. I think Buffy needs a bit of a monster in a man because she's Buffy and because she's the slayer, not because of what she had gotten through with Angelus. I don't know, maybe she even needs to love - to sleep with - her arch-nemesises... ses because they're just that, her arch-nemesises. Maybe it's because it is her way to defeat them. There are million possible answers to WHY she does is. Her attrcation to bad boys can be simply explaind by the fact that Buffy is complicated and twisted like all people are, and a person with superpowers must be supr complicated and twised. Back to Riley - I don't think he was the right guy for her, and I don't think he would have been the right guy for her if she whould have met him earlier in her life, becuase Buffy doesn't need the percfect guy. I think her relationship with Riley was mostly her trying to be a normal girl, to date a nice, normal guy (well, she thought he was a normal guy!), and that's why it was doomed from the very beginning.

ciderdrinker

15-09-08, 04:00 PM

But I don't believe what some said about Riley needing to be the man who takes care of his woman. So far he did not come off like that, as I presented, he came off as a guy who wanted an equal relationship, not a guy who wanted to be stronger than his girlfriend.

This is also evident by the woman he ended up marrying. Equal relationship, right there.

I don't think that Riley wanted to be "stronger" than Buffy. He accepted that she was a strong (physically and mentally) woman, but the fact that she was a woman and he's an old fashioned guy and in that respect feels that a woman should turn to a man when she is in pain. I'm over simplifying it here though. I don't mean that she should be subservient to him, very much the opposite. I think partly why Riley found Buffy so fascinating was because she wasn't your usual "girl", but there's the rub. IMO he was brought up in the mentality of respect women and look after them but found it too old fashioned and when he met Buffy he could see that it wouldn't be that kind of relationship. It's hard for him to follow through though. When it comes down to it, his upbringing comes out when he's unsure of himself and this is why he found it hard to understand that Buffy didn't need him when she was going through a difficult time - he kinda reverted back to his factory settings. He wanted to break free of his traditions, but found the chains binding him were too strong.

By the time he meets Sam though, the experience of breaking up with Buffy and the reasons behind it have cleared his mind a bit and he's ready to accept a relationship that is much more equal. However, Sam is not as independantly strong as Buffy, and doesn't have the emotional baggage, so it stands to reason that it would be easier to fall for her - she's an artist's impression of Buffy. On the outside she's very similar - strong-minded and willful, but inside she's a little girl who wants a man to protect her. Buffy doesn't have that anymore because the last time she trusted a man to protect her he turned into a homicidal maniac who had to be put down like a dog, then when he came back left her anyway!

I do see your points here, and I do think they were both at least partly to blame...but I guess I feel like Buffy has a way better excuse? Not only the Angelus stuff, which I think you're probably right about but also is the kind of baggage that in a subsequent relationship shouldn't get excused but should be worked through...but also the stuff with her mother/dawn. And I think Riley should get more of the blame for failing to really talk to her about it...he basically tries a bit in Family when Buffy won't tell him about Dawn, and he tries a bit in Out of My Mind - but they never actually talk about it. He never starts a conversation with I statements or tells her how he's feeling...he basically just gets on the offensive and accuses her of not opening up to him.

True, lack of communication is a problem in their relationship.

Originally Posted by Sosa lola
Graham's speech to Riley about being nothing right now. He's the mission's boyfriend, but not the mission. He has no purpose but being Buffy's boyfriend. Love isn't enough and I can't really blame Riley for that. I mean, who wants to be defined solely as someone's lover? You have to have an identity for yourself, not just as a support to some other person. And I think in Buffy's case, she never tried to encourage that in Riley. Buffy, in fact, actually takes away the one thing Riley's good at, by not letting him patrol and take part in the slayage. It seems pretty obvious to me now that he would eventually go back to the military - like Graham says, who wants to be the mission's boyfriend?

This is an interesting point, that Buffy never encouraged Riley to develop his own life - in fact she never really seemed to notice. But it is another moment of a failure to communicate in that Riley never talks about that with her - never tells her that he feels purposeless in Sunnydale, that he feels like she's his only reason for being there.

I hadn't really thought about this, and I agree that Buffy never encouraging him to be anything more than her boyfriend is a serious failing on her part. Riley has his own brain though. Did he want to do something else, or was he just content being the mission's boyfriend? I don't think he had really thought about it until it was pointed out to him, and it was just another nail in the coffin of their relationship that was residing in his head. I'm not certain but that quote from Graham is from Out Of My Mind? It's several weeks later that he decides to go off with the military, so it took him that long to decide that things with Buffy weren't going to work out and he'd better find something else to do (again I'm simplifying), so I think that's indicative that Riley was content to be by Buffy's side without any thought for himself, so maybe Buffy's not all to blame?

I have to disagree. I am a Riley Hater, but I can still acknowledge the fact that he IS the perfect man, the guy you don't stumble upon so very often. However, I don't believe he was the perfect man for Buffy. Buffy is the slayer, and she doesn't need someone who will sacrfice everything he got in life for her. She doesn't need someone to cry on when her life sucks. Or at least, it's not the main thing she needs in a man. I think Buffy needs a bit of a monster in a man because she's Buffy and because she's the slayer, not because of what she had gotten through with Angelus. I don't know, maybe she even needs to love - to sleep with - her arch-nemesises... ses because they're just that, her arch-nemesises. Maybe it's because it is her way to defeat them. There are million possible answers to WHY she does is. Her attrcation to bad boys can be simply explaind by the fact that Buffy is complicated and twisted like all people are, and a person with superpowers must be supr complicated and twised. Back to Riley - I don't think he was the right guy for her, and I don't think he would have been the right guy for her if she whould have met him earlier in her life, becuase Buffy doesn't need the percfect guy. I think her relationship with Riley was mostly her trying to be a normal girl, to date a nice, normal guy (well, she thought he was a normal guy!), and that's why it was doomed from the very beginning.

Maybe if Buffy had never been the slayer she may have been the type to go for "bad boys" and that was one of the reasons she was attracted to Angel in the first place (or at least after she'd found out he was a vampire). So maybe you're right that Riley wouldn't have been the perfect guy for her if she hadn't been "burned with Angel", but I do think the relationship would've stood more chance if those things hadn't happened in her past. I'm not sure I buy the theory that as a slayer she needs to be surrounded with the dark in order to be good at her job (at least I think that's what you're implying). There's a certain amount of darkness that comes with the territory, sure, but I think that, if anything, the series shows that Buffy chose that with her own free will. The constant comparison with Faith in S3 IMO makes that quite clear. Faith can see that Buffy wants to be dark, but is repressing it and hates to see Faith embrace it so easily. In the later seasons, as Buffy matures, she accepts that she's attracted to the dark and the consequences of those choices are clear in her relationship with Spike
(season 8 stuff)and further on into S8 and the greyness with which she's handling things
So yes, Riley is too wholesome and clean cut and "good" for Buffy, and we know that now, but at the point we're discussing it wasn't as clear, and definately not for Buffy as she hadn't acknowledged it to herself.

NancyBoy

15-09-08, 05:09 PM

I'm not sure I buy the theory that as a slayer she needs to be surrounded with the dark in order to be good at her job (at least I think that's what you're implying). There's a certain amount of darkness that comes with the territory, sure, but I think that, if anything, the series shows that Buffy chose that with her own free will. The constant comparison with Faith in S3 IMO makes that quite clear. Faith can see that Buffy wants to be dark, but is repressing it and hates to see Faith embrace it so easily. In the later seasons, as Buffy matures, she accepts that she's attracted to the dark and the consequences of those choices are clear in her relationship with Spike.
I didn't say anything about her job. I don't think she needs to be surrounded with the dark in order to be good at slaying, I think the slayerness in her makes her want and need the darkness mentally. Yes, she's repressing her want to be dark, and IMO that's what made her start dating with Riley - he wasn't dark, he wasn't supernatural or bad - as well as what 'killed' their relatioship. Buffy repressed her need for the darkness, but it doesn't mean the need wasn't there anymore. Riley couldn't provide her what she needed. I don't think it's Buffy's fault or Riley. Both of them were jerks on occasions, but, and I'm being repet-o girl here, I think they're relationship wasn't meant to work anyways.
(Oh, and by darkness I don't necesserily mean Season Six Darkness or Angelus Darkness. Yes, there's that, but there's also the more subtle darkness in knowing that Angel IS bad, that Angel fights himself every second in order to keep himself balanced and safe, and that someday he can slip. Or, if we're talking about the ensouled Spike, the darkness is having a relationship with a vampire who can switch sides if he fall in love with someone like Dru again, or having a relationship with the guy who tried to rape you.)

kana

15-09-08, 07:38 PM

I didn't say anything about her job. I don't think she needs to be surrounded with the dark in order to be good at slaying, I think the slayerness in her makes her want and need the darkness mentally. Yes, she's repressing her want to be dark, and IMO that's what made her start dating with Riley - he wasn't dark, he wasn't supernatural or bad - as well as what 'killed' their relatioship. Buffy repressed her need for the darkness, but it doesn't mean the need wasn't there anymore. Riley couldn't provide her what she needed. I don't think it's Buffy's fault or Riley. Both of them were jerks on occasions, but, and I'm being repet-o girl here, I think they're relationship wasn't meant to work anyways.
(Oh, and by darkness I don't necesserily mean Season Six Darkness or Angelus Darkness. Yes, there's that, but there's also the more subtle darkness in knowing that Angel IS bad, that Angel fights himself every second in order to keep himself balanced and safe, and that someday he can slip. Or, if we're talking about the ensouled Spike, the darkness is having a relationship with a vampire who can switch sides if he fall in love with someone like Dru again, or having a relationship with the guy who tried to rape you.)

Interesting. Spike came up with a similar theory in Season 7 but Buffy denied it. While Faith showed her her a primal side to Slaying and while Spike fed her need for self-hatred in Season 6, I agree with Buffy. She doesn't need that darkness, not anymore.

vampmogs

16-09-08, 07:23 AM

I don't believe Buffy needs some darkness or some monster in her man because she's the slayer at all, it was something only ever raised by Spike and of course he'd say it at the time, he was a monster. But even Spike undercut's what he claims later on in the episode, he admits to Riley he doesn't really believe he has a shot with her. Buffy's demonstrated on numerous occasions that she's able to be romantically interested in normal men, we've seen it with Owen, with Scott, with Riley, with Parker. She was attracted to Angel's humanity, she never knew he was a vampire until after she'd already become interested in him and she didn't really start getting close to Spike until he got his soul, his humanity.

The closest Buffy has ever got to even admitting something like this is admitting in season four that she’s attracted to the ‘bad boy’ thing. Which in itself is an entirely different area, many women find the bad boy thing appealing, it’s a big stretch to jump from that to saying Buffy also needs some monster in her man and it’s because she’s a slayer- she’s also a human girl to, and was one first. Her comments that she was attracted to bad boys wasn't just referring to Angel, but also her brief relationship with Parker. But by the end of 'Something Blue' in Buffy's own words, "I'm so over the bad boy thing."

And hey, even Buffy's pondering at the beginning of 'Something Blue' that real relationships can only come from pain and misery is misguided. She states "I know.. I have to get away from that bad boy thing. There's no good there. Seeing Angel in LA.. even for five minutes.. hello to the pain." And then later states, "But I can't help thinking ? isn't that where the fire comes from? Can a nice, safe relationship be that intense? I know it's nuts, but.. part of me believes that real love and passion have to go hand in hand with pain and fighting." What Buffy doesn't know is that Angel became human and Buffy was immensely satisfied, and the happiest and most fulfilled Buffy we've ever seen in any of her relationships. Buffy doesn't remember that, but we do. We know for a fact that Buffy can be swept up and completed by a normal relationship, because once again it wasn't the fact that Angel was a vampire that attracted her, she was attracted to his humanity, the person, not the monster. It's ultimately unfortunate Buffy doesn't remember that, in her memory that meeting with Angel was all about the pain, it wasn't about the immense happiness she actually did experience with him as they shared that time together.

I don't think Buffy needs the darkness at all. She needs the light, we saw it in 'The Wish' when her friends, her "ties to the world" her "reason she made it this far" were shown to be instrumental to her survival, her sanity and hope to be a good well-rounded person. Any time Buffy rushes towards the light she becomes better for it, any foray into the darkness is destructive to her. It's portrayed as inspirational, a positive and significant point in her character's life when she tells Spike it's over in 'As You Were' and both literally and metaphorically steps back into the light as she leaves his lair. And Riley, a normal human man is the one who gives her this strength.

In my opinion believing Buffy needs some monster in her man comes hand in hand with stating that Buffy belongs in the dark and not with her friends. Spike states both in season six, as in such episodes as 'Dead Things' and it comes part in parcel. I could never support that line of thinking, Buffy's always at best when she defies and subverts what people think she should be, it's the whole original idea behind the creation of her character. Supporting the claims she needs some monster in her man and that she is a creature of the darkness and belongs in that dark, is supporting the First Slayer's own claims that she's meant to be alone and goes against Buffy's most adamant declaration in 'Restless' that she's *not* alone. Episodes such as 'The Wish' 'Prophecy Girl' 'Primeval' even 'Chosen' have all proven that Buffy is not alone and is better off because of it.

Interestingly, Buffy also clearly is still interested in Riley during 'As You Were.' There's clearly disappointment on her face when she learns of Sam, she can't bring herself to even lie when Sam asks her if she wishes she'd caught up to him that night he left and she's flirting her way throughout the episode. In my eyes that proves that after her relationship ended, Buffy herself didn't believe it was because Riley was too normal but because of all the other, normal reasons relationships ends, reasons she regretted and hoped to change, she says so in 'Triangle.' In fact, Buffy herself finds the idea that she needs someone bigger than human preposterous in ‘Out of My Mind’ when she snidely makes comments about "macho pissing contests" and how if she wanted to date super powers she'd have just dated Spike, but "I need you."

As for why their relationship ended, I think they're both to blame but if I honestly had to pick, I'd pick Buffy as more at fault than Riley. She shut him out, even if she didn't realise it, he did, as well as others. Buffy states it herself, that it was apparently obvious to everyone but her that it was heading to the way it got, and we saw with people such as Xander and even Joyce, that they were quite surprised about Buffy's treatment of Riley throughout the latter part of their relationship. So this wasn't just Riley imagining things, it was a real problem that other people all became aware of even if Buffy was unaware of how she was treating him.

Riley didn't want Buffy to be dependant on him, he's stated quite a few times that he enjoys the fact she makes the decisions. He states this in 'A New Man' when he says "I like it" and it's clear by whom he marries, he wants to be with someone who can hold their own, who doesn't take his orders, "He wishes" and who is his equal. Buffy began, as Wood so rightfully put it, her "isolationist slayer crap" when she thought she was alone and lost that healthy balance she once shared with those around her, including Riley. She distanced herself, she wouldn't tell him things and would snap at him because he unwarily would touch a nerve, which wasn't his fault, as depicted in 'Family.'

It takes two to tango, but in this case I think if I had to honestly put more blame on one rather than the other, my pick would be Buffy.

Sosa lola

16-09-08, 01:26 PM

I don't think that Riley wanted to be "stronger" than Buffy. He accepted that she was a strong (physically and mentally) woman, but the fact that she was a woman and he's an old fashioned guy and in that respect feels that a woman should turn to a man when she is in pain. I'm over simplifying it here though. I don't mean that she should be subservient to him, very much the opposite. I think partly why Riley found Buffy so fascinating was because she wasn't your usual "girl", but there's the rub. IMO he was brought up in the mentality of respect women and look after them but found it too old fashioned and when he met Buffy he could see that it wouldn't be that kind of relationship. It's hard for him to follow through though. When it comes down to it, his upbringing comes out when he's unsure of himself and this is why he found it hard to understand that Buffy didn't need him when she was going through a difficult time - he kinda reverted back to his factory settings. He wanted to break free of his traditions, but found the chains binding him were too strong.

I don't know. So far I haven't got this vibe from Riley. Whatever his upbringing was, he seemed to really love Buffy's strength and admire her for that. As he once said, instead of taking care of me, why don't we take care of each other. I'm mostly leaning toward him wanting an equal relationship.

I don't believe Buffy needs some darkness or some monster in her man because she's the slayer at all, it was something only ever raised by Spike and of course he'd say it at the time, he was a monster. But even Spike undercut's what he claims later on in the episode, he admits to Riley he doesn't really believe he has a shot with her. Buffy's demonstrated on numerous occasions that she's able to be romantically interested in normal men, we've seen it with Owen, with Scott, with Riley, with Parker. She was attracted to Angel's humanity, she never knew he was a vampire until after she'd already become interested in him and she didn't really start getting close to Spike until he got his soul, his humanity.

The closest Buffy has ever got to even admitting something like this is admitting in season four that she’s attracted to the ‘bad boy’ thing. Which in itself is an entirely different area, many women find the bad boy thing appealing, it’s a big stretch to jump from that to saying Buffy also needs some monster in her man and it’s because she’s a slayer- she’s also a human girl to, and was one first. Her comments that she was attracted to bad boys wasn't just referring to Angel, but also her brief relationship with Parker. But by the end of 'Something Blue' in Buffy's own words, "I'm so over the bad boy thing."

And hey, even Buffy's pondering at the beginning of 'Something Blue' that real relationships can only come from pain and misery is misguided. She states "I know.. I have to get away from that bad boy thing. There's no good there. Seeing Angel in LA.. even for five minutes.. hello to the pain." And then later states, "But I can't help thinking ? isn't that where the fire comes from? Can a nice, safe relationship be that intense? I know it's nuts, but.. part of me believes that real love and passion have to go hand in hand with pain and fighting." What Buffy doesn't know is that Angel became human and Buffy was immensely satisfied, and the happiest and most fulfilled Buffy we've ever seen in any of her relationships. Buffy doesn't remember that, but we do. We know for a fact that Buffy can be swept up and completed by a normal relationship, because once again it wasn't the fact that Angel was a vampire that attracted her, she was attracted to his humanity, the person, not the monster. It's ultimately unfortunate Buffy doesn't remember that, in her memory that meeting with Angel was all about the pain, it wasn't about the immense happiness she actually did experience with him as they shared that time together.

I don't think Buffy needs the darkness at all. She needs the light, we saw it in 'The Wish' when her friends, her "ties to the world" her "reason she made it this far" were shown to be instrumental to her survival, her sanity and hope to be a good well-rounded person. Any time Buffy rushes towards the light she becomes better for it, any foray into the darkness is destructive to her. It's portrayed as inspirational, a positive and significant point in her character's life when she tells Spike it's over in 'As You Were' and both literally and metaphorically steps back into the light as she leaves his lair. And Riley, a normal human man is the one who gives her this strength.

In my opinion believing Buffy needs some monster in her man comes hand in hand with stating that Buffy belongs in the dark and not with her friends. Spike states both in season six, as in such episodes as 'Dead Things' and it comes part in parcel. I could never support that line of thinking, Buffy's always at best when she defies and subverts what people think she should be, it's the whole original idea behind the creation of her character. Supporting the claims she needs some monster in her man and that she is a creature of the darkness and belongs in that dark, is supporting the First Slayer's own claims that she's meant to be alone and goes against Buffy's most adamant declaration in 'Restless' that she's *not* alone. Episodes such as 'The Wish' 'Prophecy Girl' 'Primeval' even 'Chosen' have all proven that Buffy is not alone and is better off because of it.

Interestingly, Buffy also clearly is still interested in Riley during 'As You Were.' There's clearly disappointment on her face when she learns of Sam, she can't bring herself to even lie when Sam asks her if she wishes she'd caught up to him that night he left and she's flirting her way throughout the episode. In my eyes that proves that after her relationship ended, Buffy herself didn't believe it was because Riley was too normal but because of all the other, normal reasons relationships ends, reasons she regretted and hoped to change, she says so in 'Triangle.' In fact, Buffy herself finds the idea that she needs someone bigger than human preposterous in ‘Out of My Mind’ when she snidely makes comments about "macho pissing contests" and how if she wanted to date super powers she'd have just dated Spike, but "I need you."

As for why their relationship ended, I think they're both to blame but if I honestly had to pick, I'd pick Buffy as more at fault than Riley. She shut him out, even if she didn't realise it, he did, as well as others. Buffy states it herself, that it was apparently obvious to everyone but her that it was heading to the way it got, and we saw with people such as Xander and even Joyce, that they were quite surprised about Buffy's treatment of Riley throughout the latter part of their relationship. So this wasn't just Riley imagining things, it was a real problem that other people all became aware of even if Buffy was unaware of how she was treating him.

Riley didn't want Buffy to be dependant on him, he's stated quite a few times that he enjoys the fact she makes the decisions. He states this in 'A New Man' when he says "I like it" and it's clear by whom he marries, he wants to be with someone who can hold their own, who doesn't take his orders, "He wishes" and who is his equal. Buffy began, as Wood so rightfully put it, her "isolationist slayer crap" when she thought she was alone and lost that healthy balance she once shared with those around her, including Riley. She distanced herself, she wouldn't tell him things and would snap at him because he unwarily would touch a nerve, which wasn't his fault, as depicted in 'Family.'

It takes two to tango, but in this case I think if I had to honestly put more blame on one rather than the other, my pick would be Buffy.

I agree with all you said. :)

Wolfie Gilmore

16-09-08, 01:52 PM

I think Buffy didn’t handle the stuff with Angel very well in season 4 – asking Riley to leave the room so she could talk to Angel in The Yoko Factor was harsh! You do not say to your bf, “Please let me be alone with my ex who has just been beating you up”, at least not without explanation.

Riley’s reaction in Shadow is understandable – it hurts to be shut out and unable to help when your partner is in pain – but at the same time, he should think of it from Buffy’s point of view. She can’t think about him just then, and she has to deal with it however works for her.

Going to vampire hookers because you’re feeling neglected…well, that’s not ok on any level. Not that it would be better if it was some other kind of paid sex scenario (or unpaid! Though….Riley as rentboy, I’m betting there’s a lot of fics out there?)

On the whole, poor communication is probably at fault more than one or other of the characters – their scene at the end of Hush, where they both sit there being silent… the seeds of the end right there?

As to whether Riley wanted Buffy to be cute and weak and kittenish… I think his choice of wife says a strong “no” to that. But perhaps where they differ too much is Buffy’s anarchist side which, even though Riley calls himself one, when it comes down to it, he’s a guy who likes order more than he likes an improve approach to life. Sam is a....I want to say company man, though obv not a man...you know what I mean? She's a bit institutionalised, she's ARMY with a capital a and everything else.

Then again, perhaps his staid nature would’ve provided a good foil for Buffy over time? Though it might just have ended up with her sneaking off for illicit vampire sex and bank robberies, going crazy from all the vanilla ;)

Anyway, I’d go with “fault on both sides”, though Buffy probably has more of the early “faults” (sounds like tennis) and Riley’s the one who handles things worse in season 5. Though that’s simplistic of course. But if I can’t make crass sweeping statements on the internets…

litzie

16-09-08, 01:56 PM

As for why their relationship ended, I think they're both to blame but if I honestly had to pick, I'd pick Buffy as more at fault than Riley. She shut him out, even if she didn't realise it, he did, as well as others. Buffy states it herself, that it was apparently obvious to everyone but her that it was heading to the way it got, and we saw with people such as Xander and even Joyce, that they were quite surprised about Buffy's treatment of Riley throughout the latter part of their relationship. So this wasn't just Riley imagining things, it was a real problem that other people all became aware of even if Buffy was unaware of how she was treating him.
To be fair, though, Xander KNEW that Riley was uncertain and insecure in the relationship - Riley told him. He didn't just randomly pick up on it. And when he gives his speech to Buffy, he doesn't know about Riley's vamp addiction, nor does he really know anything about what's going on in their relationship except what he's seen from Riley's perspective.

Riley didn't want Buffy to be dependant on him, he's stated quite a few times that he enjoys the fact she makes the decisions. He states this in 'A New Man' when he says "I like it" and it's clear by whom he marries, he wants to be with someone who can hold their own, who doesn't take his orders, "He wishes" and who is his equal. Buffy began, as Wood so rightfully put it, her "isolationist slayer crap" when she thought she was alone and lost that healthy balance she once shared with those around her, including Riley. She distanced herself, she wouldn't tell him things and would snap at him because he unwarily would touch a nerve, which wasn't his fault, as depicted in 'Family.'

It takes two to tango, but in this case I think if I had to honestly put more blame on one rather than the other, my pick would be Buffy.

And I don't just think that it was Riley imagining things - yes, Buffy was shutting him out, and she snapped at him sometimes because he was touching a nerve he didn't know was there, like in Family. But she was snapping at Dawn in that same episode. She was shutting out all of her other friends, and for good reason really - when they all find out what Dawn is, they DO act different around her, it DOES put them in danger and put Dawn in danger. Whether she should have trusted Riley beyond her friends, as much as she trusted Giles...I don't know. But I don't think it's fair to simply condemn her for shutting Riley out of that specific part of her life.

Nor do I think it's fair to blame her for her reaction to Joyce's illness, as Riley does (though unintentionally- I think he knows that he can't really blame her) in Shadow. When she tells spike what's going on but doesn't call Riley, I think that's an echo of what's to come later, in that telling spike her mother might have a brain tumor doesn't make it real in the way telling Riley would. And at the end of the episode, when Riley wants her to break down, she obviously did need to be strong for her mother and her sister. It's just not fair to blame someone for their reaction to grief and illness.

And I also don't think it's true that Buffy began the 'isolationist slayer crap' in the beginning of season 5. Yes, by the end, she had, though it's very understandable in the wake of her mother's death - i think it's clear that as much as she loves her friends, her mother was one of the, if not the, most important things that held her to this world. But at the beginning of the season, she is still struggling to be a part of the world. But she is dealing with a sister who's not a sister and who's constantly in a world of danger, and a mother with brain cancer. It's not just a slayer who might distance herself from others in that situation - it's anyone.

sueworld

16-09-08, 04:08 PM

Firstly I have to say I am a Riley fan, always have been really, despite my unease at his 'Mary Sue' type intro in season 4.

As to whether Riley wanted Buffy to be cute and weak and kittenish… I think his choice of wife says a strong “no” to that. But perhaps where they differ too much is Buffy’s anarchist side which, even though Riley calls himself one, when it comes down to it, he’s a guy who likes order more than he likes an improve approach to life. Sam is a....I want to say company man, though obv not a man...you know what I mean? She's a bit institutionalised, she's ARMY with a capital a and everything else.

Yes, I sort of agree there, although whats to say that Riley's attitude as to what he wanted from a partner didn't change over time. I mean in season 4 he was very much painted as the straight up army guy who just saw things around him in terms of black and white.

It was Buffy that introduced all 'grey' into the proceedings and mudded up how he perceived his role in things.

I believe that it was during that time that he observed how strong she could be and that reflected in what he wanted from her and in fact any other relationship. So yes, I agree he wanted an equal, not some '1950's housewife'.

I do agree with your comments about his final choice of a wife. She did indeed seem to be the perfect mate. Strong, but extremely straight up. A real army gal as you point out.

I think Riley would have been very good for Buffy, but if they hadn't split up back then, would he still be with her now. Hmmm, not so sure on that one myself.

As to touches of darkness being in Buffy and finding that element attractive in others. Yes, I'm I agree with that. Too much of what we saw from season 5 onwards pointed in that direction, and I think she just learnt to accept that part of herself and not let in overwhelm her.

She herself is a decedent of women merged with the essence of a demon, and so I think all Slayers have an 'echo' of the darkside inside them. But whether they want to access it seems to totally be up to the personality involved.

missperoxide

16-09-08, 07:37 PM

I think if we want to determine whose "fault" it is then I'd say it was their both fault. But I don't very much even think about the relationship in the terms of fault, because I'm very sure it couldn't have ended differently, they never had chance to stay together. For me, Riley was Buffy's try for "normality" or "ordinary" (after quite a bit of non-normality and, well, extraordinary, experienced with Angel). So, generally speaking, he is the rebound guy. One qualification for rebound guy is that you love him a big deal less than he loves you, so that you can just warm yourself in his love and there's not a big chance of you getting hurt. I think she meant to have this rebound thing with Parker first, but it didn't happen, Parker being a jerk and all, so Riley was just next eligible rebound guy who came along. They both did make mistakes during their relationship, but you cannot fix a relationship if one half of it doesn't really bother to make the effort. And it's clear she didn't want to make the effort, she just wanted Riley to be nice and normal and happy and loving and she certainly didn't want any problems in their relationship. The moment the problems started I think Buffy actually already knew this is going to end. She wasn't really interested in solving the problems, working them out. If Riley would have been okay with just being the "mission's boyfriend" they would have been together longer. (Probably would have broken up after Buffy's resurrection).

hawkedup

16-09-08, 10:43 PM

It's Buffy's fault.

Sosa lola

16-09-08, 11:14 PM

Just watched Family :D

- Buffy telling Giles about Dawn felt to me more like a Slayer/Watcher deal. It wasn't about not trusting her mom or her friends or Riley, it was that the fewer in the know the better. Giles is the watcher and he's the only one qualified to know. Now if we're talking romantic relationships, that's Willow's territory because she's Buffy's best friend.

- Riley senses that Buffy is hiding something from him. He was quite sensitive to her extreme reaction when he mentioned the government. Perhaps he thought that she didn't trust who he was, who he still really is? I don't really fault Buffy for her actions in this scene. She didn't want the government involved because they'd be also a danger to Dawn, since Dawn isn't really human… by some sort of standards that is. Riley, though, doesn't know that, so I understand his reaction. Maybe Buffy should have told him about Dawn?

- Why isn't Riley invited to research in the Magic Box? Buffy should have invited him, especially knowing how he feels about her hiding stuff from him. Maybe she couldn't find him?

- How many bars does Sunnydale have? Riley goes to Willy's night after night, I assume since Out of My Mind, just for the atmosphere. I'm wondering what the real reason is though. Was Riley drowning in self-loathing? He hates the guy he become, a guy with no purpose. He wants to have an identity of his own, and now he's just Buffy's boyfriend. It makes understand why Spike stayed in LA in S5, he wants to make something of himself and not just be Buffy's follower.

- Riley came to Tara's birthday with a gift. Did he let Sandy bite him at this point? They didn't show us that.

trueblue

17-09-08, 03:31 AM

well firstly the relationship started out badl with lies on both sides, and it seemed to me they both wanted to be with the ordinary college boy college girl type so when that was false and they found out they were both fighting against the same thing it all turned into a competiton somewhat, riley wanted to protect buffy, she pretty much didnt want him involved in anything, i agree buffy pushed riley away a lot but in the end they were both to blame it wasnt meant to be and its clear the type of person they needed in each others lives wasnt each other

litzie

17-09-08, 11:14 AM

Having just got to Into the Woods in my rewatch, I'm now basically going to say that Riley invested meaning in all this stuff that has no intrinsic meaning, because he was already thinking buffy didn't love him. Specifically, in Into the Woods, he gets this hurt look on his face when she rolls away from him while she's sleeping. Dude! some people move in their sleep! And he obviously took away from that just one more bit of evidence that she didn't love him, but seriously - rolling away while sleeping does not actually mean that! (phew, ok, that was way rantier than I meant to be!)

carousel_girl8

17-09-08, 11:26 AM

I have never been a big fan of Riley's but I feel Buffy is more to blame than he is for the break up of their relationship.

But actually, on this most recent rewatch, I've found myself thinking that Riley is a gigantic idiot! He listens to Spike, of all people, about what buffy wants. He takes dawn's comments, which are actually very innocuous and in the case of the carousel scene, extremely well-meant, and twists them to support his perception that Buffy doesn't love him because he's not dark enough. In that carousel scene, Dawn actually says that Buffy's happier with him, that she's better with him, that dawn is glad Riley's there for Buffy - and he takes it to mean Buffy doesn't love him as much.

I have to disagree with this, yeah Spike does want Buffy so he would have a reason to try and push Riley away but I don't think that is what he is doing here, Spike has always been very intuitive and he is often right with what he says. I think Riley has good reason to trust Spike here. Yes Dawn says that Buffy is happier but Buffy needs the passion and Riley knows this, when Dawn says that Buffy got all worked up over Angel and that it always felt like the end of the world, Riley knows this is exactly what Buffy wants out of a relationship.

I truly believe Buffy would never have been happy with Riley because he was too good to her and she did need some bad in her man as Spike said. I felt sorry for Riley a lot more than I did for Buffy in this storyline.

Sosa lola

17-09-08, 12:34 PM

Specifically, in Into the Woods, he gets this hurt look on his face when she rolls away from him while she's sleeping. Dude! some people move in their sleep! And he obviously took away from that just one more bit of evidence that she didn't love him, but seriously - rolling away while sleeping does not actually mean that! (phew, ok, that was way rantier than I meant to be!)

God! He reminds me of my soon-to-be-husband :D I don't mind snuggles when we're awake, but when I want to sleep I want my space. (I'm Ross to his Rachel, and Chandler to his Jance ;)) And he starts with the "You don't love me anymore? Why did you stop being romantic?" I roll my eyes, since when snuggling meant love? Dude, I wanna SLEEP in a space with air and go to my favorite sleeping position that can't done with someone holding you.

Can't really comment on Riley's hurt expression, still in Family, but I'll do my rewatches and give my opinion ;)

buffyholic

17-09-08, 04:33 PM

50/50. Buffy never let Riley in, not really. In "Out of my Mind", she tells Riley that she loved him with all of his heart and that she opened to him in all ways possible. That, for me, means that she is either lying or in denial because she was always shut off, she always kept him at a distance.
But Riley also was to blame because he was old-fashioned, he wanted to be the strong one, he wanted to take care of her and wanted her to cry on his shoulder. So, both of them are to blame.

Sosa lola

17-09-08, 07:06 PM

But Riley also was to blame because he was old-fashioned, he wanted to be the strong one, he wanted to take care of her and wanted her to cry on his shoulder. So, both of them are to blame.

I don't know where you guys got this. Riley never wanted to be stronger than Buffy, he wanted to be her equal. He wanted them to depend on each other and take care of each other. He wanted to be in. Riley's mistake was not opening up to Buffy about his feelings, he just went out and played hero, looking for anything (even vampires) who needed him, just to feel useful and needed.

He surely didn't want Buffy a helpless kitten that he would protect. He gave no vibes that he wanted their relationship to be this way.

I think it all comes down to lack of communication. That's the sole reason, IMO, that they didn't work out.

bknick

18-09-08, 03:45 AM

I truly believe Buffy would never have been happy with Riley because he was too good to her and she did need some bad in her man as Spike said. I felt sorry for Riley a lot more than I did for Buffy in this storyline.

Completely agree. Boo on Buffy. Though, for television's sake, Riley was kinda dull.

buffyholic

18-09-08, 01:33 PM

icecreamkiller

18-09-08, 06:29 PM

carousel_girl8

18-09-08, 08:01 PM

I kind of have to disagree with the whole "Buffy needs some bad in her man" deal. I mean, what? Since when?

She was with Spike throughout season 6 because she was lonely and desperate, and Spike was the easy way to get something similar to a solution to that. If anything, she was the bad one in their relationship. When she was with Angel, all she wanted was for him to be the opposite of what he was when he was bad. She definitely seemed a lot happier with Riley than with Spike, even if she did have problems letting him in.

I do think Buffy has some inherent darkness in her, but just because darkness is an aspect of her personality it doesn't mean she wants it to be in the person she's with.

She was unhappier with Spike than with Riley but Buffy seems to be drawn to this. I think she needs some bad in her men because she needs the drama that comes with it. It may sound crazy but I think some women like this because it brings more excitement to a relationship and this is why Riley was probably boring to her because he was reliable. I also disagree about Spike being the good one in the relationship because she seemed even more turned on by Spike when she realised he could physically hurt her, she seemed to want the pain that came with being with him.

vampmogs

19-09-08, 02:20 AM

She wasn't really interested in solving the problems, working them out. If Riley would have been okay with just being the "mission's boyfriend" they would have been together longer. (Probably would have broken up after Buffy's resurrection).

I disagree, Buffy tells Dawn in 'Triangle' that she hopes he returns so that they can talk it through, work it out and maybe give it another go. And the fact she runs after the helicopter proves she was willing to fight for this.

She was unhappier with Spike than with Riley but Buffy seems to be drawn to this. I think she needs some bad in her men because she needs the drama that comes with it. It may sound crazy but I think some women like this because it brings more excitement to a relationship and this is why Riley was probably boring to her because he was reliable. I also disagree about Spike being the good one in the relationship because she seemed even more turned on by Spike when she realised he could physically hurt her, she seemed to want the pain that came with being with him.

Buffy states in 'Conversations With Dead People' that she needed to be punished though, which is why she entered into the relationship. I don't think in normal circumstances she needs a guy that will physically bash her just to get turned on.. at least I hope not or that's incredibly sad. :err:

sueworld

19-09-08, 02:30 AM

I don't think in normal circumstances she needs a guy that will physically bash her just to get turned on.. at least I hope not or that's incredibly sad

Or for her want to beat up her her sexual partners, eh?

vampmogs

19-09-08, 02:39 AM

Or for her want to beat up her her sexual partners, eh?

Of course not. But I was responding directly to a statement that she was turned on because Spike could physically hurt her. Not if she could physically hurt her partners, she’s always been able to do that.

buffyholic

19-09-08, 02:17 PM

I agree with icecreamkiller (btw, cool name!) that Buffy does have inherent darkness in her but that doesn´t mean she needs a man like that, she is not drawn to that. I think Spike tells that to Riley because he either wants to piss him off because he knows things are not okay or either he wants Buffy to come to him. Spike also tells Buffy that in S6 that she belongs to the darkness but it isn´t right.

Sosa lola

19-09-08, 09:19 PM

Maybe not, sosa lola but Riley entered this relationship with different goals than Buffy, he was expecting something else than Buffy was ready to give. And Buffy warned him about this relationship not working and he still was willing.

Goals change with time, whatever Riley's were... I'm not rewatching S4, so I'm not entirely sure if Riley wanted Buffy to be a normal girl and not a slayer. But in S5, he's fine with her being strong, he just wants to be strong as well. He wants them to be an equal couple, depending on each other, and taking care of each other. Not one stronger than the other.

missperoxide

19-09-08, 10:03 PM

I disagree, Buffy tells Dawn in 'Triangle' that she hopes he returns so that they can talk it through, work it out and maybe give it another go. And the fact she runs after the helicopter proves she was willing to fight for this.
The fact that she ran after the helicopter does not necessarily prove anything. She probably just let Xander talk herself into it. The speech was very emotional and gripping. In the heat of a moment Buffy thought, yes, why not, I can give it another try. But in the beginning of S6 at latest she would have left him. Riley would not have been able to help Buffy get over her depression.

And, btw, had Buffy really loved Riley, she would have sought him ought, "deep undercover, no contact with civilians" or not.

kana

19-09-08, 10:30 PM

The fact that she ran after the helicopter does not necessarily prove anything. She probably just let Xander talk herself into it. The speech was very emotional and gripping. In the heat of a moment Buffy thought, yes, why not, I can give it another try. But in the beginning of S6 at latest she would have left him. Riley would not have been able to help Buffy get over her depression.

And, btw, had Buffy really loved Riley, she would have sought him ought, "deep undercover, no contact with civilians" or not.

I think it's difficult to tell exactly what would have happened but I think it's important that she was at least willing to try.

We don't know how things would have turned out if they had stayed together and when she actually saw Riley, albeit only briefly, she reassed her life and the choices she had been making, prompting her to break up with Spike. Seeing Riley reminded her of how her life used to be, not just with him but out the cloud of depression in which she was immersed at the time.

Also, I'm not too big on the whole, "If s/he really loved him/her then..." I think that's more akin to placing our own ideals on top others. I suppose this isn't the only time this has happened. Spike, although not 'innocent' in his relationship with Buffy was used shamlessly and he wondered if she ever really loved him. One thinkg I've noticed is that sometimes the other characters (and viewers) put words in Buffy's mouth.

vampmogs

20-09-08, 02:49 AM

The fact that she ran after the helicopter does not necessarily prove anything. She probably just let Xander talk herself into it. The speech was very emotional and gripping. In the heat of a moment Buffy thought, yes, why not, I can give it another try. But in the beginning of S6 at latest she would have left him. Riley would not have been able to help Buffy get over her depression.

I think the whole point of that scene was to show Buffy did want to give it a go, that was the whole tragedy, that she didn't reach him in time. Even during season six she can't lie to Sam that she wishes she hadn't let him go.

Ah Riley and Joyce are arguably the only two people who did help Buffy get over her depression, excluding Buffy herself of course. It was Riley's "You're a hell of a woman" speech that gave her the strength to dump Spike because using him was "killing her" and it was Joyce in the alternate dimension during 'Normal Again' that told her "you have a world of strength in your heart you just need to find it again, believe in yourself" which got her up off her ass and decided to fight another day. Riley gets a lot of credit for setting Buffy back on the right path.

Besides she didn't leave her friends when she was depressed, so why would she necessarily leave Riley?

And, btw, had Buffy really loved Riley, she would have sought him ought, "deep undercover, no contact with civilians" or not.

Then I guess Spike doesn't really love Buffy, if he did he would have sought her out after coming back in 'Chosen' but instead he fancied going out as a hero more than being with her. I'm sure you wouldn't agree?

carousel_girl8

20-09-08, 05:07 PM

Buffy states in 'Conversations With Dead People' that she needed to be punished though, which is why she entered into the relationship. I don't think in normal circumstances she needs a guy that will physically bash her just to get turned on.. at least I hope not or that's incredibly sad. :err:

I wasn'y implying that she needs always needs a guy who will bash her but I do believe Spike was a special circumstance in which she did, as your example from CWDP could back up as a form of her needing to be punished but I do believe she needs some bad quality in her men to keep her interested.

Besides she didn't leave her friends when she was depressed, so why would she necessarily leave Riley?

I think it is always different with friends than with boyfriends/girlfriends. Sometimes they can make it even harder because you have to focus attention on them as well as on yourself when you feel depressed. I think Riley needed attention and he wouldn't have been able to cope if Buffy couldn't focus on him as much anymore. I think the scoobies would probably have been slightly more understanding of Buffy.

Skippcomet

20-09-08, 07:55 PM

It should be noted that by the time Into the Woods first aired, most fans knew that Riley was leaving and that B/R were breaking up....but for a very vocal segment, that wasn't enough. They wanted Buffy, or at least the show's producers, to make a definitive statement-slash-realization that she truly did not, never had, and never would love Riley and that entering into a relationship with him had been the biggest mistake of her life. Followed up by her immediate kicking of his ass all the way out of Sunnydale...or at the very least, to decide that Riley simply wasn't worth pursuing anymore.

And instead, they got what actually happened in Into the Woods, which was....decidedly not what they wanted to see happen. Or, as many felt was happening on a meta level, what they thought they were being told by Marti Noxon through Xander-as-a-mouthpiece. It's one of those (rare) instances on the show of a group of outraged fans refusing to accept the story as told by ME and insisting/demanding that what they wanted to see was what should have happened (or, indeed, what really happened, screw the producers).

icegemz

21-09-08, 05:41 PM

Now I am not a Riley fan, but I have put alot of thought into this, mainly because my friend is a Riley/Buffy fan.

I used to think that Buffy never loved Riley and that it was all Rileys fault that the relationship died. However recently my view has changed. I believe now that Buffy did love Riley. However after being burned by Angel and then by Parker (not a relationship I know) I think she found it hard to open herself up to Riley. Buffy in some sense has always been like this. This irrated Riley because he wanted to feel like he was important enough to be told things by Buffy herself.

I think that Riley couldn't handle the fact that Buffy didn't seem to need him on an emotional level.

And I do think that when his chip was removed and he was reduced in his mind to normal, the slayer aspect got him down. He didn't like it when Buffy asked him to take the scooby gang with him because in my mind I think he liked to be the hero of the hour. That way he would feel equal to Buffy.

As to whos fault it was that the relationship ended, I'd say it 50/50 but I do always scream at the televison when Riley is going up the helicopter because who doesnt look at the window? This one part of the whole relationship makes me go Rileys Fault but it is 50/50 :)

I hope I explained my view probly :lol:

missperoxide

21-09-08, 06:44 PM

I think the whole point of that scene was to show Buffy did want to give it a go, that was the whole tragedy, that she didn't reach him in time.

Or maybe the whole point of that scene was to give us the exciting "will she get there or will she not" scene :lol: Actually I really do not see it as a tragedy, her not reaching to the helicopter in time. It would have made things a lot worse. They probably would have tried to make it work, then with the whole Glory and protecting Dawn thing it would have gotten ugly really quickly. Spike wouldn't have disappeared because Buffy gives the relationship with Riley another chance, he still would have hanged around, taken care of Dawn, making jokes a la "we band of buggered" and he still would have been "the only one besides me who has any chance of protecting Dawn" to quote Buffy. I'm betting that Riley would not have liked that very much had he been in that RV too. To give just one very simple example of potential problems.

Ah Riley and Joyce are arguably the only two people who did help Buffy get over her depression, excluding Buffy herself of course. It was Riley's "You're a hell of a woman" speech that gave her the strength to dump Spike because using him was "killing her" and it was Joyce in the alternate dimension during 'Normal Again' that told her "you have a world of strength in your heart you just need to find it again, believe in yourself" which got her up off her ass and decided to fight another day. Riley gets a lot of credit for setting Buffy back on the right path.
Yeah, as an outsider coming back and spreading wisdom. Had he been there all along when Buffy crawled out of her grave, do you really belive Riley could have been the one giving Buffy back her strenght and will to live? They had enormous problems already, without Buffy being back from dead and heavily depressed. Riley was complaining about not getting enough attention etc. How do you think he would have coped with Depressed!Buffy?

Besides she didn't leave her friends when she was depressed, so why would she necessarily leave Riley?
Because a friend and a boyfriend are two very different things? Very different things.

Then I guess Spike doesn't really love Buffy, if he did he would have sought her out after coming back in 'Chosen' but instead he fancied going out as a hero more than being with her. I'm sure you wouldn't agree?
I really do not get your point here :s Maybe you can explain more what you mean by that?

KingofCretins

21-09-08, 07:28 PM

kana

21-09-08, 09:02 PM

Or maybe the whole point of that scene was to give us the exciting "will she get there or will she not" scene :lol: Actually I really do not see it as a tragedy, her not reaching to the helicopter in time. It would have made things a lot worse. They probably would have tried to make it work, then with the whole Glory and protecting Dawn thing it would have gotten ugly really quickly. Spike wouldn't have disappeared because Buffy gives the relationship with Riley another chance, he still would have hanged around, taken care of Dawn, making jokes a la "we band of buggered" and he still would have been "the only one besides me who has any chance of protecting Dawn" to quote Buffy. I'm betting that Riley would not have liked that very much had he been in that RV too. To give just one very simple example of potential problems.

Of course there were minefields, however these are all hypotheticals. The only point I'd make is that they had a shot. Mnay people argue that Spuffy and Bangel are true love respectively but she isn't with either vampire is she? Even love isn't a guarentee things are going to work out.

Yeah, as an outsider coming back and spreading wisdom. Had he been there all along when Buffy crawled out of her grave, do you really belive Riley could have been the one giving Buffy back her strenght and will to live? They had enormous problems already, without Buffy being back from dead and heavily depressed. Riley was complaining about not getting enough attention etc. How do you think he would have coped with Depressed!Buffy?

I'm not sure to be honest but we have no idea how things would have worked out. Spike didn't necessarily help matters and part of their relationship was based upon the fact that she could hardly think of him as a person. A lot of what happened was situational and I'm a believer that love doesn't operate in a vacuum.

Because a friend and a boyfriend are two very different things? Very different things

Buffy wasn't particularly capable of a healthy romantic relationship in Season 6 anyway, so whether Riley was the right guy or not or whether she loved him or could have loved him becomes moot.

I really do not get your point here :s Maybe you can explain more what you mean by that?

I think it was in reference to your point about Buffy not going to seek out Riley and how it doesn't prove that she didn't or couldn't love Riley. It goes back to my earlier point about love in a vacuum. There are other factors such as her friends, Glory, her sister, her duties as a slayer. There could also be other issues such as fear of rejection or wondering if she can make a relationship work. I always believe that things are more complicated than the whole 'true love prevails over all' mantra.

I don't see what Spike has to do with a critical analysis of Buffy and Riley's break up at all, actually.

I got the analogy but agreed, it doesn't really address the deeper issues between Riley and Buffy.

There's no mistaking the end of "Into the Woods" -- Buffy wasn't running after Riley to tell him she didn't want to be with him. Xander was right, he got through, Buffy finally *got* it, and went after him. Really, I don't think there was a single thing Xander told her in that scene that wasn't true -- Buffy really always had treated Riley as the rebound guy, as the proof-I'm-over-Angel guy, and not as a man and lover and partner on his own merit.

To me that's the tragedy. They never got that chance.

This might have been made more self-evident if the lines in "The Harsh Light of Day" where Buffy blames those reasons for her sleeping with Parker -- that she was trying to prove she was over Angel.

It wasn't until Xander put it in front of her that she understood Riley the way that Xander and the audience did -- why he said she doesn't love him, his expression when she leaves him standing alone in the hospital like a misplaced cup of coffee and not someone she needs with her. She wanted to try to love him as Riley and not as Angel's replacement.

This is it. I don't think Riley articulated all that well in Into The Woods. What he should have said it's about taking care of each other and letting the other in.

I believe everyone should at least have chance at a relationship like that. I believe Xander is right, if Buffy wasn't prepared to do that, the kind thing to do would be to let him go.

missperoxide

21-09-08, 09:14 PM

I don't see what Spike has to do with a critical analysis of Buffy and Riley's break up at all, actually.

There's no mistaking the end of "Into the Woods" -- Buffy wasn't running after Riley to tell him she didn't want to be with him. Xander was right, he got through, Buffy finally *got* it, and went after him. Really, I don't think there was a single thing Xander told her in that scene that wasn't true -- Buffy really always had treated Riley as the rebound guy, as the proof-I'm-over-Angel guy, and not as a man and lover and partner on his own merit.

As I already said, I think had Buffy made it to the helicopter, it still wouldn't have changed much. Buffy & Riley would still have broken up, only some episodes later. The problem with them was that 1) Buffy didn't really love him (you know, love him) and 2) he actually wanted to be loved.
When Buffy ran after that helicopter after hearing Xander's inspirational speech, she wasn't thinking about working this out. She was just in the heat of the moment. The only way Buffy & Riley could have worked would have been Riley not demanding anything and being content with the place and space Buffy enables him or permits him to have. But Riley obviously wanted all or nothing, that's why he left.

I used Spike just as an example of one pretty obvious thing that would have caused serious problems between Buffy and Riley (had Buffy made it to that helicopter). Xander and Giles were pretty mad because of Spike being in that RV. Imagine what Riley would have felt/done after hearing that "the only one besides me who has any chance of protecting Dawn" - you really think he would have answered "Yeah, that's true. He's a vampire with superhuman strength and I'm just mere human so all right, let him stay because he can protect Dawn"? You're thinking that wouldn't have caused a problem between Riley and Buffy? And yet it's quite a small and insignificant thing...

KingofCretins

21-09-08, 09:33 PM

Well, it's always been a false attribution to say Riley was uncomfortable with Buffy's physical power or the difference between them. The *only* time it *ever* came up was in "Out of My Mind" when he was literally going insane, and even then, it was fueled by his feeling that she didn't love him -- he felt like being able to keep up with her on patrol would make her treat hem like she loved him as an equal, not that he had to be as strong or stronger than her to have a sense of self.

So, presumably, Riley -- generally more realistic and emotional mature than the others around him -- would have abided Buffy's reasoning. He abided her choice not to kill him, which had less of a logical basis, so, yes, I don't think he'd have had the same problem dealing with her position about Dawn. If anything, I think it's more likely that with Riley around, Buffy wouldn't have put it that way in the first place -- Riley is, superpowered or not, a more than capable fighter against your average demon, and since neither Spike nor Riley, nor Buffy, had any hope of matching Glory directly, there'd have been no reason to hold Riley apart in that statement.

I think it's a discredit to Buffy, and non-textual, to say that she was only being impulsive in "Into the Woods". It sort of undermines the entire arc, really, certainly in the context of Xander's role. His mini-arc, that also informed his relationship with Anya, was of realizing what Riley was going through, and why, and of trying to repair it from outside and ultimately confronting Buffy. In so doing, he comes to terms with his feelings for Anya as well. It strips all narrative value out of that if he was convincing Buffy of a false idea -- and Buffy out of a good deal of her emotional self-awareness if she only went after Riley because Xander gave a good speech.

missperoxide

21-09-08, 10:31 PM

Well, it's always been a false attribution to say Riley was uncomfortable with Buffy's physical power or the difference between them. The *only* time it *ever* came up was in "Out of My Mind" when he was literally going insane
How about Riley's face in No Place Like Home with the "weak and kitteny"?
and even then, it was fueled by his feeling that she didn't love him -- he felt like being able to keep up with her on patrol would make her treat hem like she loved him as an equal, not that he had to be as strong or stronger than her to have a sense of self.
But weren't he right to feel that Buffy didn't love him? She never said him she did. And quite often she treated her like she didn't, too. (See that awful scene for example when he tells Riley to leave because she wants to talk to Angel. It's just something you do not do to your boyfriend when you're in love with him. Actually it's something you do not do if you have a tiniest bit of respect to your boyfriend's feelings.)
So, presumably, Riley -- generally more realistic and emotional mature than the others around him -- would have abided Buffy's reasoning. He abided her choice not to kill him, which had less of a logical basis, so, yes, I don't think he'd have had the same problem dealing with her position about Dawn. If anything, I think it's more likely that with Riley around, Buffy wouldn't have put it that way in the first place -- Riley is, superpowered or not, a more than capable fighter against your average demon, and since neither Spike nor Riley, nor Buffy, had any hope of matching Glory directly, there'd have been no reason to hold Riley apart in that statement.
No way. Riley was irritated as hell just because Spike made no secret of being in love with Buffy. He even shoved a plastic stake through him, that's how far his empty hate went. (Why did'nt he stake Spike good and proper is beyond me. Perhaps he was afraid Buffy wouldn't be too happy about it? I've got no idea, actually...) Anyhow, regarding all this, what would he have done after Buffy started treating Spike as an ally? Acting in very sensible and rational manner somehow doesn't feel very believable.

I think it's a discredit to Buffy, and non-textual, to say that she was only being impulsive in "Into the Woods".
I don't know, is it? First of all, I'm all for each interpreting the text and what we see in their own way. I'm thinking we see what we see. You saw great potential for a relationship between them, I saw rebound and inevitable breakup. It all depends on how we look at it, not what we look. I guess very often the writers do not actually have some sort of 'definite' message they want to convey. If BtVS were one of these shows, with the nice morale in the end of each episode, I wouldn't have watched it.

It sort of undermines the entire arc, really, certainly in the context of Xander's role. His mini-arc, that also informed his relationship with Anya, was of realizing what Riley was going through, and why, and of trying to repair it from outside and ultimately confronting Buffy. In so doing, he comes to terms with his feelings for Anya as well. It strips all narrative value out of that if he was convincing Buffy of a false idea -- and Buffy out of a good deal of her emotional self-awareness if she only went after Riley because Xander gave a good speech.
I'm guessing one reason for Xander giving the speech is because on one hand he knows Riley is no threat to himself ("She doesn't love me" Riley told Xander in "The Replacement") and Xander still conciously or subconciously wants Buffy. Or, at least feels jealousy. It's nice and safe when Buffy is in a relationship that's not "real". Also Xander obviously prefers Buffy with a regular human being instead of someone non-human and non-regular (like Angel was).

KingofCretins

22-09-08, 12:35 AM

How about Riley's face in No Place Like Home with the "weak and kitteny"?

No better or worse than Angel took being called a Eunuch, Spike took basically being called a big p$&#y in "Get It Done", or Xander took being told he should stay to the rear of the battle and be more "fray-adjacent" in "The Zeppo". He's a guy. It was needlessly rude and dismissive to say, even to... no, especially to someone else besides him. It doesn't identify any type of unique insecurity in Riley about Buffy.

But weren't he right to feel that Buffy didn't love him? She never said him she did. And quite often she treated her like she didn't, too. (See that awful scene for example when he tells Riley to leave because she wants to talk to Angel. It's just something you do not do to your boyfriend when you're in love with him. Actually it's something you do not do if you have a tiniest bit of respect to your boyfriend's feelings.)

Even if true, how does this invalidate Riley's own feelings about what Buffy gives him? You're using subtext to override text -- the fact that Buffy hadn't articulated her feelings for Riley was the point of the scene with Xander in "Into the Woods", and why she suddenly wanted to run after him. That was the only reason for the episode to unfold as it did. Rather than accept the pretty straightforward meaning, you have to have constructed a way to use the set-up for that episode to dismiss the payoff.

No way. Riley was irritated as hell just because Spike made no secret of being in love with Buffy. He even shoved a plastic stake through him, that's how far his empty hate went. (Why did'nt he stake Spike good and proper is beyond me. Perhaps he was afraid Buffy wouldn't be too happy about it? I've got no idea, actually...) Anyhow, regarding all this, what would he have done after Buffy started treating Spike as an ally? Acting in very sensible and rational manner somehow doesn't feel very believable.

Riley respected Buffy's wishes, that's why he didn't kill Spike. *Nobody* on that RV, including Buffy trusted Spike in any particular way except to the very limited extent that Buffy believed Spike would protect Dawn (and, of course, was incapable of hurting her). Riley was a military officer and leader, had shown a track record of trusting Buffy's judgment, he'd have accepted Spike climbing into their particular foxhole.

I'm guessing one reason for Xander giving the speech is because on one hand he knows Riley is no threat to himself ("She doesn't love me" Riley told Xander in "The Replacement") and Xander still conciously or subconciously wants Buffy. Or, at least feels jealousy. It's nice and safe when Buffy is in a relationship that's not "real". Also Xander obviously prefers Buffy with a regular human being instead of someone non-human and non-regular (like Angel was).

I have often said I think Xander experienced Riley's relationship with Buffy vicariously -- Riley being with her reflected what Xander thinks could have been or could be with himself and Buffy, so, yes, he defended it. And it's at least part catharsis from having seen Buffy realize she loves Riley (and therefore, Xander's stand in) that allowed him to move forward and tell Anya how he felt about her.

But that doesn't invalidate Buffy and Xander's parallel arcs in the first part of Season 5 -- both holding people that love them at arm's length, both realizing it and wanting to do better. But Xander realized it in time and Buffy didn't.

vampmogs

22-09-08, 02:48 AM

missperoxide

22-09-08, 08:56 AM

Buffy tells Sam in season six she wishes things had turned out differently, she can't even lie to his wife's face when Sam asks her if Buffy wishes she hadn't let him go. In my opinion it can't be any more clearer that Buffy wishes she had caught up to him, she can't even bring herself to lie just to keep away any awkwardness between her and his wife.
So you're suggesting poor Sam was a rebound?

That's a lot of hypothetical. What we saw was that Riley could help depressed Buffy, that's enough for me.
To my mind, it's not enough. When Riley came in in As You Were, he offered an outsider's view on things and let Buffy to have a glimpse of "as she were" if you wish. I do not like the epi at all, for numerous reasons that I've already listed in this forum, but I do accept the intention of it, which was to show that Buffy needed some sort of incentive to break up with Spike etc. But, as I said before: Buffy and Riley had enormous problems already, before Buffy being back from dead and heavily depressed. Riley was complaining about not getting enough attention etc. Riley could never have handled Depressed!Buffy, could never have prevented her from having the said depression. I know he would have tried to make it better, but so did Spike in a way and failed because when you're depressed you don't want to be helped. You want to drown in your own misery. The healing process becomes only when you yourself start wanting to get better.

You stated that if Buffy really loved Riley she would have went searching for him, jungle or no jungle. I replied saying that's like saying if Spike really loved Buffy he'd have went looking for her after he comes back from the dead, but he didn't. It's double standards to say Buffy couldn't have loved Riley if she doesn't go searching for him no matter what, when you believe Spike loved Buffy and yet he didn't go searching for her either.
Well, I guessed that's what you were trying to tell, but I thought maybe I misunderstood, not being a native speaker of English and all. What has Spike got to do with the situation? It cannot be more different. Spike loved Buffy, (I bet he still does). But he does not believe that Buffy loves him, as he has stated himself. Do you really think that once Spike has a reason to believe that Buffy really, really loves him, something will stop him to find her? :roll: He'll do anything it takes to go to her. Literally anything.
Now Buffy not going after Riley is very much different: we know that Riley really loves Buffy, he's said it, he acts like he does. And Buffy knows Riley loves her. Buffy also knows that Riley thinks she doesn't love him or at least seriously doubts it. So it was very much Buffy who, if Riley really was what she wanted, should have gone after him. I'm pretty sure she herself knew that, too.
Anyhow, a year after the breakup, they both had ... kind of moved on. Riley was married. Buffy never tried to contact Riley, she just let bygones be bygones. She wasn't missing Riley, wanting him back, a year later. She had other things in her mind. Like being back from the dead. (And anyway, from OMWF until the end of Chosen it was more or less all about Spike when Buffy's romantic relationships were concerned...)

And, by the way, what if Angel had pulled similar helicopter stunt in S3? Do you think that Buffy would have been like all right, I missed the plane, so be it, I'll be sad for a little while and then get on with my life? Had Buffy had reason to believe that the only thing keeping her and Angel apart is just her being late and a jungle, she would have turned the world upside down. Something she did not do for Riley. Something you do not do for the rebound guy, no matter how much respect you have towards him or how much you wish you could have loved him because he was good to you and for you.

kana

22-09-08, 10:46 AM

So you're suggesting poor Sam was a rebound?

I don't think that was really the point. We're talking about this from Buffy's perspective so whether or not Sam is the rebund is irrelevent.

To my mind, it's not enough. When Riley came in in As You Were, he offered an outsider's view on things and let Buffy to have a glimpse of "as she were" if you wish. I do not like the epi at all, for numerous reasons that I've already listed in this forum, but I do accept the intention of it, which was to show that Buffy needed some sort of incentive to break up with Spike etc. But, as I said before: Buffy and Riley had enormous problems already, before Buffy being back from dead and heavily depressed. Riley was complaining about not getting enough attention etc. Riley could never have handled Depressed!Buffy, could never have prevented her from having the said depression. I know he would have tried to make it better, but so did Spike in a way and failed because when you're depressed you don't want to be helped. You want to drown in your own misery. The healing process becomes only when you yourself start wanting to get better.

Only partially agree. I think Buffy did have to get over her depression herself and there is no telling whether Riley could have whethered the storm. It's possible Riley could have had the healthy perspective he did because he left and maybe Buffy would have dragged him down if he stayed, who knows. Point is, a lot of this is situational and not necessarily dependent on Riley. Arguably she may not have been able to love anyone at that point, but if she was able, it's possible she could have loved Riley.

Well, I guessed that's what you were trying to tell, but I thought maybe I misunderstood, not being a native speaker of English and all. What has Spike got to do with the situation? It cannot be more different. Spike loved Buffy, (I bet he still does). But he does not believe that Buffy loves him, as he has stated himself. Do you really think that once Spike has a reason to believe that Buffy really, really loves him, something will stop him to find her? :roll: He'll do anything it takes to go to her. Literally anything.

This is the point I made earlier. In theory, it wouldn't matter whether she may or not have loved her back. Spike didn't have proof either way, but he couldn't have taken a shot anyway if he truly loved her, if not just to see if she was ok. The thing is, you don't doubt that he did. Buffy did have other things going on in her life as well as the possibility that Riley may have moved on by the time she managed to find him, or that he might have simply told her to go to hell because he was angry. Just because she didn't abandon her friends and her post and more importantly her sister, that doesn't prove that she wasn't willing to give things a shot or that things wouldn't have worked out.

Now Buffy not going after Riley is very much different: we know that Riley really loves Buffy, he's said it, he acts like he does. And Buffy knows Riley loves her. Buffy also knows that Riley thinks she doesn't love him or at least seriously doubts it. So it was very much Buffy who, if Riley really was what she wanted, should have gone after him. I'm pretty sure she herself knew that, too.

See above. And again about love not happening in a vacuum.

Anyhow, a year after the breakup, they both had ... kind of moved on. Riley was married. Buffy never tried to contact Riley, she just let bygones be bygones. She wasn't missing Riley, wanting him back, a year later. She had other things in her mind. Like being back from the dead. (And anyway, from OMWF until the end of Chosen it was more or less all about Spike when Buffy's romantic relationships were concerned...)

They did move on, I agree, but this isn't proof things wouldn't have worked out or that Riley and Buffy never had a chance. Also her relationship with Spike was complicated and it's not necessarily what she wanted in the long term. Up until Dead Things she could hardly reconcile herself with her actions but yes, Buffy had other things to contend with, but it still isn't proof she didn't or could have never have loved Riley.

And, by the way, what if Angel had pulled similar helicopter stunt in S3? Do you think that Buffy would have been like all right, I missed the plane, so be it, I'll be sad for a little while and then get on with my life? Had Buffy had reason to believe that the only thing keeping her and Angel apart is just her being late and a jungle, she would have turned the world upside down.

The circumstance with Angel was different, she was more open emotionally at the time anyway because there hadn't been a proverbial Angel before him. It's more situational than anything else. If Angel had come after Riley maybe the same may have happened, I don't know or maybe if she were with Riley first then maybe she'd still be with him, who knows, as Mogs says, a lot of hypotheticals.

Something she did not do for Riley. Something you do not do for the rebound guy, no matter how much respect you have towards him or how much you wish you could have loved him because he was good to you and for you.

I don't think it's something Buffy would do for any guy at the expense of the universe or indeed her sister.

Enisy

22-09-08, 10:55 AM

Up until Dead Things she could hardly reconcile herself with her actions but yes, Buffy had other things to contend with, but it still isn't proof she didn't or could have never have loved Riley.

That's pretty much the only thing I disagree about on this subject. I don't think she loved him; I think she thought she could, if she gave him a fair chance, like Xander suggested. Even Xander's wording is not "If you really think you love this guy ..." -- it's "If you really think you can love this guy".

That said, I agree that we were supposed to take Xander's speech at face value, and that Buffy's reaction was more of an epiphany than an impulse. Otherwise there's no point to it, really.

kana

22-09-08, 12:05 PM

That's pretty much the only thing I disagree about on this subject. I don't think she loved him; I think she thought she could, if she gave him a fair chance, like Xander suggested. Even Xander's wording is not "If you really think you love this guy ..." -- it's "If you really think you can love this guy".

Well this is it. I'm not saying she definitely did and forever would love him, I'm just saying that her not loving him or even not being able to make it work was not a certainty.

I don't believe Buffy loved Spike at the start nor do I think Wesley loved Lilah when they began their relationship. Some still contest against their love but I think how the relationships started out isn't necessarily how it ends up or could up. I accept the possibility that she didn't love or that she never would have loved him but I also accept the opposite can also be true. All I'm saying is that they had a shot.

Enisy

22-09-08, 12:22 PM

sueworld

22-09-08, 12:56 PM

(Heck, sometimes I wonder whether Buffy even loved Spike, and I adore them together.)

Oh lord, don't open that can of worms! :roll:

Enisy

22-09-08, 01:10 PM

LOL, sorry! I just wanted to deflect the "You're just saying that because you don't like Riley/Buffy!" arguments. (There's already a thread for Buffy's "I love you", anyway, and it's coming down on the side of "Yes she did" at the moment.)

*ogles your avatar/banner combo again*

missperoxide

22-09-08, 07:22 PM

Yep, exactly. And I don't mean to diminish their relationship by saying I don't think she loved him, no matter how my post may have come off -- it's just how I saw it. (Heck, sometimes I wonder whether Buffy even loved Spike, and I adore them together.)

I wonder that quite often :lol: and I really do adore Spike and Buffy together too. Or maybe she did, I don't know. The jury is still out on that. Actually the closest to my take on this (right now) is that she did love him (subconciously) already in S6 but didn't want to acknowledge the love to herself. Something in the lines of that.

OK, back to Ruffy. I don't deny they had a chance either. But I do think the only chance they had would have been that kind of love that's for "old marrieds". To my mind, she didn't love him (she wanted to love him though) and that rules out the chance for them to be truly, deeply and madly in love :)
But I do think that had Buffy made it to that helicopter and had Riley agreed to seriously lower his expectations and agreed to get from Buffy only as much as she was willing to offer (which was not much I would say, see for example: non-said "I love you" and the fact that Buffy humiliated him in front of Angel). And if Buffy had never died in The Gift. Then it might have been possible, that they would still be together this very day.
(I wonder what would have changed if all that happened. If Buffy hadn't died then she wouldn't have had the depression, and S6 would have been just fighting with the nerd troika, and probably Scoobies would have got them much earlier. Maybe Katrina would live. Maybe Tara would live, too. Spike probably wouldnt end up fighting for his soul. Etc etc. Lots of potential maybes and what ifs there.)

I don't dislike Riley. I don't love his character either. But I mainly really feel sorry for him. He didn't deserve what he got. But anyhow, all's well that ends well I guess, and hopefully he's happy with Sam right now and not plotting evil schemes as Twilight :D

vampmogs

23-09-08, 02:07 AM

But I do think that had Buffy made it to that helicopter and had Riley agreed to seriously lower his expectations...

I don't personally believe this is what would have went on here. Xander made Buffy realise that she wasn't treating Riley right, I think if anything it wouldn't be a case of Riley lowering his expectations but Buffy making more of an effort. Her friends, Joyce, they all saw it, Buffy states it in 'Triangle.' I doubt very much it'd be a case of Riley having to lower his expectations and Buffy more or less remaining the same, if anything it'd be Buffy trying to be more open emotionally and more content on making it work.

That’s why I believe if she’d caught up to him they would have made it, I think that’s what the scene tried to convey, hence, the tragedy when she didn’t reach him in time. There was no elephant in the room between them anymore, they’d let it out, had their argument and now both of them had realised their mistakes and wanted to make it work.

Wolfie Gilmore

23-09-08, 10:28 AM

I think Buffy made her big grand gesture dash after the helicopter, not because she was ready to commit to Riley or necessarily change things, but because she was about to lose him. It was one of those impending-death-or-loss like the "I love you" she gave to Spike when he was dying... she didn't necessarily not mean it, but it wouldn't necessarily have lasted once the emergency was over.

I think Xander convinced her with his speech, but it was more that she found the speech moving than she necessarily changed her approach to Riley. I mean, I realise it's an imponderable, given that we'll never know what would have happened next, and that all we have is Buffy's reaction. But I didn't get the impression she was pining with love for him for ages afterwards. Her upsetness about Xander and Anya's "beautiful love" was a world away from her sense of loss re Angel, imo. Maybe that's cos she was more of a teenager with Angel, but still.

doubleshiny

23-09-08, 04:32 PM

kana

23-09-08, 07:22 PM

I think the helicopter dash was a case of wanting something rather than nothing. I have my doubts that she would have asked him to stay, it felt like she was running but hoping not to catch him.

Her heart wasn't in it, not because of anything that Riley did or didn't do but because he was so different to Angel. I couldn't help cheering when Angel kicked his ass, and I reckon that's kind of how she felt too. He came across as whiny and needy when she wanted someone who was her equal.

Hi by the way :-)

Hi

I think Buffy made her big grand gesture dash after the helicopter, not because she was ready to commit to Riley or necessarily change things, but because she was about to lose him. It was one of those impending-death-or-loss like the "I love you" she gave to Spike when he was dying... she didn't necessarily not mean it, but it wouldn't necessarily have lasted once the emergency was over.

I think Xander convinced her with his speech, but it was more that she found the speech moving than she necessarily changed her approach to Riley. I mean, I realise it's an imponderable, given that we'll never know what would have happened next, and that all we have is Buffy's reaction. But I didn't get the impression she was pining with love for him for ages afterwards. Her upsetness about Xander and Anya's "beautiful love" was a world away from her sense of loss re Angel, imo. Maybe that's cos she was more of a teenager with Angel, but still.

I'm still not sure. All of this could be true but it's something of a trend that people tend to put words in Buffy's mouth. Spike claimed that Buffy didn't love him. Angel thought that he was getting the brush off for Spike. I still think it's possible she wanted to make things work and may have made an effort. I'm a firm believer that Riley and Buffy were repairable at that time, they had a chance.