Buffy 8.21 Cover (spoilers) [Archive]

Weredog

11-09-08, 12:12 AM

Whoa! Okay, I sorta wanna retract something I had said a few times on this board, which was that I was tired that Whedon would reintroduce old recurring characters (Amy, Warren, Ethan, Dracula) instead of reintroducing its core characters (The Scoobies -- like Giles!). However, I am really excited that Harmony's getting an issue because I thought she made quite a mark in the TV series in a way no other character did; nope, not even Cordelia, Spike, or Anya. I was actually sorta bummed that she didn't appear in season 6 or even 7. Harmony had been there since the beginning -- and I mean "unaired pilot" kind of beginning.

So now with this issue, I'm very curious to know what Harmony has been up to. Although I do hope that this is a standalone that only slightly affects the season arc (ala "No Future for You"). After "Wolves at the Gate" and currently with "Time of Your Life," I need a breather from all of this epic battle-ness-ity.
Or, well actually, I think I'm gonna enjoy it whether it will deviate itself from the arc or not, simply because it will be written by Jane Espenson herself! Now we just need some Douglas Petrie, Steven S. DeKnight, David Greenwalt, and Marti Noxon too!

XavierZane

11-09-08, 12:38 AM

This sounds great. No better poster girl for Vampire Stardom than Harmony, the Littlest Vampire.

Seriously, though, Harmony as a Vampire always intrigued me. As a human she was a sheep and seemed to have a personality so shallow it was in constant danger of evaporating, but out of every vampire we've seen on either show her demon got control of her the least. In fact, I would say that she showed more empathy and humanity as a vampire than she ever did as a human.

I know this arc is five standalones from five different point of views, but do we know for certain that the characters in the issues are definitely going to be interacting with Buffy, Xander and Co? I got the impression that they each were going to be like the Chain. If so, then the "Does Buffy Know about Spike" issue will probably stay unmentioned, but if Harmony interacts with Buffy at all then I think it's pretty necessary to mention it. It's been understandable up till now that it hasn't come up, but to ignore a cue like this would just be silly.

RuFio

11-09-08, 03:07 AM

i don't know what the hell is going on in this next arc, or whatever, but I have to say it makes me happy to see harmony again. She makes me laugh! I can only imagine where the writers are taking this! Harmony as a vamp celebrity makes some kind of odd sense though!

Charles

11-09-08, 03:29 AM

Well..

Unless she's going to be someone's love interest or bed partner I'm not exactly sure what the point of bringing Harmony back is unless it's for sheer comedy value which I think was her last onscreen appearance in BTVS.

And lest we forget, characters crossing over from one show to the other tend to undergo massive personality shifts (Willow and Faith).

The rest, I could do without save for the comment about 'Slayers being out'. I don't think that wording was accidental in the slightest.

vampmogs

11-09-08, 03:37 AM

Oh what a fantastic cover, I agree it's not the best we've seen but still... Chen knocks it out of the park again.

I'm not going to spoiler 'cause the title says "spoilers"

The blurb is very interesting "Vampires are in, slayers are out." This was the issue Joss said that really hits the ground running for the season so something major is probably going to happen. Gotta wonder by the phrasing though? I knew slayers were going to be made public but here it gives the impression vampires become the popular liked ones and slayers the unpopular disliked ones? If that's true is it possible after her time in Issue #20 in season one Buffy comes back to a world that's slightly been altered? Or is the blurb just embellishing a little on that one? :s

And who else loves the fact that whenever Harmony gets a starring role in an episode they name the episode after her in some way? “Disharmony” “Harm’s Way” and now “Harmonic Divergence” :D

I'm very excited, always wanted Harmony back in seasons six and seven. I agree with Weredog she's been there from the pilot episode- even the unaired pilot, you gotta have some harm in the Buffyverse.

ThePoet's<3

11-09-08, 03:53 AM

I agree with Charles's view that there wouldn't be very much for Harmony to do in S8 EXCEPT -

tell everyone else about what was going on at W&H in the last days and to let Buffy know that Spike is still alive! :2party:

I know the covers aren't always true to the content of the story but I am a little disappointed that she's back to her old blood-sucking ways... I wish she could have laid off the plasma. Oh well.

Wolfie Gilmore

11-09-08, 10:18 AM

Well..

Unless she's going to be someone's love interest or bed partner I'm not exactly sure what the point of bringing Harmony back is unless it's for sheer comedy value

Why bring her back? Because she is made of awesome. I love Harmony. I hope her and Andrew make a documentary together. Andrew the producer would be hilarious...since he was responsible for those slayer ads, makes sense he'd take it upon himself to handle the media once the slayer secret gets out.

Nina

11-09-08, 11:16 AM

Making a vampire ad without the star of the ads; not possible.

http://i38.tinypic.com/21lpve9.jpg

Who needs Harmony? :D

But I would love to see Harmony/Andrew bonding.

dinamo

11-09-08, 12:48 PM

Personally I always thought Harmony if she got out of LA was because she saw that demon army coming and just ran. She's not the stay and fight type so once she saw them I always figured she'd run in the opposite direction as quickly as possible. If LA wasn't already in hell at that point it makes sense she'd get out.

Harmony to me is quite an interesting character, she seemed to develope more as a vampire and get more layered than when she was human. She was capable of doing good and bad when a vampire without having a soul. I also liked how she made herself more kickass with the training, there is something awesome about killing a vamp with a chopstick.

Matt

11-09-08, 01:25 PM

So they are five standalones from five different viewpoints, so does that mean there's one over-riding story for the arc that they all get involved in? Also, who else can they have the rest about? I can sort of see Dru coming back for a plot like this, just not this one necessarily.

It's all very interesting and I suppose I'll just have to wait in anticipation.

As for the covers, I really like the Chen one, as always she's done a brilliant job of capturing the essence of the person and if her expression on the covers go, she's having a good time since leaving W&H, does she even know that LA is submerged in Hell? And it sounds like Harmony is some kind of celebrity, I just hope it's not for her singing. (Why haven't they actually mentioned that in season 8, by the way?) I'm not too keen on Jeanty's cover, but it's alright.

Another quick question, is this arc definitely set in the present time? I hope so because I can't deal with more backward and foreward time jumping.

Nina

11-09-08, 01:31 PM

Matt

11-09-08, 01:36 PM

From what I heard;

Kennedy and Satsu will both get an issue in this arc as well. I'm not sure what the actual arc will be, something about vampires and slayers in this 'new' situation? Kennedy, Satsu, Harmony, another vampire?, another vampire/slayer? I doubt that they will bring Angel/Spike into season 8 this early ... so Dru can be a good guess. And another slayer can be everybody ... it can be the decoy in Rome or Vi or Rhona ... or maybe Buffy herself.

I'm really happy Kennedy's getting her own issue, maybe now we'll find out more about what happened to Willow and herself during the hiatus between the show and the comics.

I think the decoy in Rome is a good guess, I kind of want to say Dana too, but I doubt she's stable enough yet.

dinamo

11-09-08, 01:38 PM

Could one of the slayer stories be Faith, as a way to bring her and Giles back into the Storyline again before things gear up for the finale?

Nina

11-09-08, 01:48 PM

I'm not sure if they would put Faith and Giles in this arc, I think that they will go with a stand alone issue for a newsflash about those two ... but I really don't know.

Besides, is this the arc where;

The mystical world goes public? We know that it will happen and that Angel has to deal with it in 'Aftermath'. It would make sense if ATF would return around this time as well, because I doubt that the people in LA would ignore all those demons again. And Harmony can start a career as a famous vampire and visit Oprah.

KingofCretins

11-09-08, 05:20 PM

The return of Harmony will kick off an "arc" of standalones that highlight vampires going public. I hope that Harmony isn't going to suddenly be more evil than she was in Angel Season 5. Maybe Twilight manipulates events so that she becomes the first public vampire, but I don't want Harmony mwahahahaing about it herself.

I had an amusing thought that maybe she'll be Xander's "hook-up" at some point, as a way to create some great comedy and tension when Buffy finds out and busts him for sleeping with vampires. Highly unlikely, but that would be a funny scene.

Kennedy's issue is 8.22 I think. Scott Allie also said she looks very hot on the cover :) Satsu gets another one. That leaves two -- I doubt any of the major/core characters will get one. Faith and Giles are maybes, but I doubt it. Andrew is possible. I wouldn't completely rule out a Riley issue -- even if he's not secretly Twilight, he's an interesting character we could see react to this. Wood is also a possibility.

XavierZane

11-09-08, 05:22 PM

I like the Jeanty cover more this time. I can't wait for this issue! Andrew and Harmony interacting would be amazing.

tiger_fan

11-09-08, 10:14 PM

I had an amusing thought that maybe she'll be Xander's "hook-up" at some point, as a way to create some great comedy and tension when Buffy finds out and busts him for sleeping with vampires. Highly unlikely, but that would be a funny scene.

I thought about this as well when I found out that Harmony was coming back. That would be ironic if Xander was suddenly, once again, in the other shoes. But you know some people will jump on the hypocrite Xander bandwagon if that happens like they did in S7 when it came to killing Anya. And some like the do with Drac's friendship with Xander.

Plus, the only way I could seeing Xander sleeping with Harmony is if he were really really drunk, under a spell, or incredibly depressed. She'd have to be considered more of an ally before he'd go that route, imo. And I'm not sure one issue would be enough to be able to establish that, especially, when the cover suggests that she's not exactly up to good. Although, it would be a heck of a twist. It be the equivalent of Xander walking in on Buffy/Satsu for Buffy if she walked in on it.

But it would be fun to see them ruffle each others feathers again. As emasculating as the hair pulling/slap fight was, it was pretty damn funny. NB and MM did great with that physical comedy stuff of that scene.

Koos

11-09-08, 10:35 PM

I know this arc is five standalones from five different point of views, but do we know for certain that the characters in the issues are definitely going to be interacting with Buffy, Xander and Co? I got the impression that they each were going to be like the Chain. If so, then the "Does Buffy Know about Spike" issue will probably stay unmentioned, but if Harmony interacts with Buffy at all then I think it's pretty necessary to mention it. It's been understandable up till now that it hasn't come up, but to ignore a cue like this would just be silly.

If that's the case, I'll quite reading the comics. I'm not interested in Harmony or Kennedy. And the wait is already too long. On top of it: there are already too many characters too. There needs to be a point in telling their story that is related to the overall arc, and there needs to be interaction by the main characters.

That said. Harmony never was more interesting than just being comic relief. I can hardly imagine that would be different in this issue. Though, she was funny.

XavierZane

11-09-08, 11:23 PM

The impression I get of this arc is that it's going to be a series of "Where were you when...?" moments dealing with less important characters reactions to finding out that vampires have been outed, and how it effects them. So I think it would be pretty cool to leave out the main guys for awhile, and it would be a nice dramatic move. We could focus on and flesh out the supporting characters of the 'verse for a bit, and then be thrown in with Buffy and Xander again in full crisis mode dealing with what happened. It could even be done in a ever-narrowing gradient, starting with someone incidental like Harmony and then dealing with characters closer and closer to the main guys, ending with Giles or somebody.

Or I could be completely off base with my impressions of this arc. I find that that happens quite a bit.

modifiedblind

12-09-08, 01:24 AM

I sort of like the idea of different view points of the world reacting to the news, it reminds me of Y: The Last Man when they devoted some issues to women coping with the loss of men in the world. However, with Buffy, I'm not sure I can handle not seeing the core Scoobies for a few months... Especially when we're getting a central story arc for Oz. I'm sure those who get into the comics after they've all been published will like the idea, but those of us waiting for 1 comic a month... I'm not looking forward to the waiting. That's just my two cents... also, Harmony looks horrible in Jeanty's cover... heh...

vampmogs

12-09-08, 02:23 AM

The idea behind it is very interesting the only thing I'm worried about is how much time this leaves for the season if Buffy and the Scoobies aren't in this at all?

KingofCretins

12-09-08, 04:47 AM

I thought about this as well when I found out that Harmony was coming back. That would be ironic if Xander was suddenly, once again, in the other shoes. But you know some people will jump on the hypocrite Xander bandwagon if that happens like they did in S7 when it came to killing Anya. And some like the do with Drac's friendship with Xander.

Plus, the only way I could seeing Xander sleeping with Harmony is if he were really really drunk, under a spell, or incredibly depressed. She'd have to be considered more of an ally before he'd go that route, imo. And I'm not sure one issue would be enough to be able to establish that, especially, when the cover suggests that she's not exactly up to good. Although, it would be a heck of a twist. It be the equivalent of Xander walking in on Buffy/Satsu for Buffy if she walked in on it.

But it would be fun to see them ruffle each others feathers again. As emasculating as the hair pulling/slap fight was, it was pretty damn funny. NB and MM did great with that physical comedy stuff of that scene.

Well, I doubt it, but it would hit some nice comic tones. Really, I'm skeptical about a Xander/Dawn hook-up the more I think about it, so I'm back to wondering who he might hook up with, even if it's just a fling. Drunk/depressed vampire sex would certainly give him something else in common with Buffy.

If that's the case, I'll quite reading the comics. I'm not interested in Harmony or Kennedy. And the wait is already too long. On top of it: there are already too many characters too. There needs to be a point in telling their story that is related to the overall arc, and there needs to be interaction by the main characters.

That said. Harmony never was more interesting than just being comic relief. I can hardly imagine that would be different in this issue. Though, she was funny.

I just don't get why Buffy finding out about Spike is this *defining* interest issue for people. I mean, where's the perspective? What has there *ever* been a high level of importance about characters on the two series' finding out information about each other in a hurry, other than Buffy dying and Buffy coming back? There was no rush to find out about Connor, no rush about Cordy. It's just not of all that immediate relevance. I can't imagine wanting to stop reading just because the issue isn't structured to answer that question, if it's not.

The impression I get of this arc is that it's going to be a series of "Where were you when...?" moments dealing with less important characters reactions to finding out that vampires have been outed, and how it effects them. So I think it would be pretty cool to leave out the main guys for awhile, and it would be a nice dramatic move. We could focus on and flesh out the supporting characters of the 'verse for a bit, and then be thrown in with Buffy and Xander again in full crisis mode dealing with what happened. It could even be done in a ever-narrowing gradient, starting with someone incidental like Harmony and then dealing with characters closer and closer to the main guys, ending with Giles or somebody.

Or I could be completely off base with my impressions of this arc. I find that that happens quite a bit.

I think we'll get some Scooby stuff, but mostly "B" plot, like in Faith's arc. Vampmogs is right, there's only so much Season 8 to use a full quarter of what's left to not even cover the main characters at all.

tiger_fan

12-09-08, 05:49 AM

Well, I doubt it, but it would hit some nice comic tones. Really, I'm skeptical about a Xander/Dawn hook-up the more I think about it, so I'm back to wondering who he might hook up with, even if it's just a fling. Drunk/depressed vampire sex would certainly give him something else in common with Buffy.

Oh really? What makes you rethink a upcoming X/D hookup? That was actually one thing, as a BXer, I was afraid of actually happening. After looking around at places in the fandom it seemed that some thought it was pretty inevitable at this point, which had me a little worried. So what makes you rethink the possibility of D/X happening?

And I agree, Xander hooking up with a vampire (sober/depressed/whatever or not) would definitely be a parallel with Buffy. At one time, they pretty much stood on opposite ends of this debate. Buffy being on the, its okay to sleep with certain ones stance and Xander standing pretty strong against such a thing. Dracula I think actually makes Xander's stance a little more grey since he has some sort of weird relationship (non-romantic) with him. Meaning he may be a little more accepting to certain vampires if the situation calls for it or if there's a spell or something effecting his judgment. But I don't think Buffy would ever think Harmony as someone who had as much depth as her vampires had when she was sleeping with them. I think Buffy would be pretty shocked if Xander slept with Harmony when she was still alive, Vampire Harmony would just be an extra kick of shock. So it would definitely be interesting to see her reaction to it.

Matt

12-09-08, 08:03 AM

I certainly hope Harmony isn't Xander's hook-up, especially after how much he said he hates them from the beginning, Dracula being an exception, this is mainly because I want Bander, but I can sort of imagining Harmony and Xander getting together...

Also, the whole issue about Buffy finding out about Spike being alive, I don't really see why it's bothering people so much. Buffy and Spike (and Angel for that matter) have all moved on. Buffy's slept with Satsu, Spike couldn't wait to have sex with Harmony when he first became corporal (although that was more of a needing to "feel" thing) and Angel has/had Nina, so I don't see the importance of Buffy suddenly finding out, maybe it's the idea that the two series are now poles apart with Buffy doing her thing in Scotland and LA being submerged in Hell.

KingofCretins

12-09-08, 08:32 AM

Oh, I want Buffy/Xander too. I actually think such a tryst could push in that direction -- it would erase one of the few things that's an "issue" between Buffy and Xander. And, also just funny.

I haven't completely ruled out Xander/Dawn as a possibility, or even as a good thing. But it makes Buffy/Xander more difficult, so hopefully not.

Back to 8.21... I just thought of something pretty troubling. In the Buffyverse, light and funny is usually followed by very big angst. This issue, with Harmony in it, Espenson writing it, it should be pretty funny. 8.22 is Kennedy, we know. One of 8.23, 8.24, or 8.25 is Satsu. We also know this arc will make Slayers into public enemies.

I'm suddenly remembering "The Chain"... could each of the single issues after Harmony's issue tell the story of various Slayers being killed? It seems plausible, although pretty terrible. But 8.05 could have been a sort of broad theme and format foreshadowing for these issues, and the idea that the chain that the decoy believed in so strongly is being broken a link at a time.

Weredog

12-09-08, 09:52 AM

vampmogs

12-09-08, 01:50 PM

Does anybody know if The Scoobies will appear in these five issues? Will it be treated like "The Chain" where the story revolves solely on a single character while a few Scoobs pop in a panel or two? Or will it will be more like "No Future for You" where the story revolves mainly on a character whilst spending a few panels on The Scoobs?

Too early to ask? :)

I'm wanting to know that as well? I think the idea behind it sounds fantastic I'm just a bit worried that if it is like 'The Chain' with no Scoobies really at all, that's five issues away from the characters and at that point, the season is well getting on. They must appear at some point though? I mean who's perspective on slayers becoming public enemy number one is more important than Buffy herself?

Wolfie Gilmore

12-09-08, 02:28 PM

Oh, I want Buffy/Xander too. I actually think such a tryst could push in that direction -- it would erase one of the few things that's an "issue" between Buffy and Xander. And, also just funny.

Hee, yes. I would love to see how that'd play out... quite how drunk Xander would have to be for it to happen, for instance. And how they'd talk about it afterwards. Maybe some stuff about Xander being a massive hobag for sleeping with two best friends (from Harmony's point of view, Cordy was her best friend after all). Though that might be a bit brutal since Cordy's dead. Will he find that out, does anyone know?

Koos

12-09-08, 04:00 PM

I just don't get why Buffy finding out about Spike is this *defining* interest issue for people.

I don't see Buffy finding out about Spike as significant. To me it is also not Harmony interacting with Scoobies. To me that equals to: waste of valueble screentime.

Matt

12-09-08, 05:25 PM

Back to 8.21... I just thought of something pretty troubling. In the Buffyverse, light and funny is usually followed by very big angst. This issue, with Harmony in it, Espenson writing it, it should be pretty funny. 8.22 is Kennedy, we know. One of 8.23, 8.24, or 8.25 is Satsu. We also know this arc will make Slayers into public enemies.

I'm suddenly remembering "The Chain"... could each of the single issues after Harmony's issue tell the story of various Slayers being killed? It seems plausible, although pretty terrible. But 8.05 could have been a sort of broad theme and format foreshadowing for these issues, and the idea that the chain that the decoy believed in so strongly is being broken a link at a time.

That is a very interesting point, it would certainly make sense, but I hope they don't kill off Kennedy and I can't see them killing of Satsu when they've only just killed Renee who was another new slayer. If this is the case I think having the Slayers that are killed being people we haven't seen before makes it kind of more poignant.

I've just thought of one of the Slayers that is extremely likely for this arc, Simone Doffler. I mean, she's popped up enough times and it'd make sense to give her her own issue to tell her story properly. Either that or maybe she's the reason the Slayers become public enemies in the first place?

Skippcomet

12-09-08, 07:50 PM

Hee, yes. I would love to see how that'd play out... quite how drunk Xander would have to be for it to happen, for instance. And how they'd talk about it afterwards. Maybe some stuff about Xander being a massive hobag for sleeping with two best friends (from Harmony's point of view, Cordy was her best friend after all). Though that might be a bit brutal since Cordy's dead. Will he find that out, does anyone know?

Unless you mean Anya was her best friend. Xander and Cordy never slept together, except in other people's fanfic.

Wolfie Gilmore

12-09-08, 10:42 PM

Unless you mean Anya was her best friend. Xander and Cordy never slept together, except in other people's fanfic.

Good point! Snog slut then :D

vampmogs

13-09-08, 11:02 AM

I've just thought of one of the Slayers that is extremely likely for this arc, Simone Doffler. I mean, she's popped up enough times and it'd make sense to give her her own issue to tell her story properly. Either that or maybe she's the reason the Slayers become public enemies in the first place?

Great point, that's most certainly a slayer you wanna focus on in an arc where the slayers become the public enemy. It's the actions we've seen her do that probably help fuel all of this, so it'd be interesting to see how it's deal with surrounding her character.

Matt

13-09-08, 12:04 PM

Or, well actually, I think I'm gonna enjoy it whether it will deviate itself from the arc or not, simply because it will be written by Jane Espenson herself! Now we just need some Douglas Petrie, Steven S. DeKnight, David Greenwalt, and Marti Noxon too!

The whole arc isn't going to be written by Jane Espenson, just the Harmony issue.

Jane Espenson is writing the Oz arc when it comes around.

The other four issues are going to be penned by Doug Pietrie, Drew Greenberg, Jim Krueger and Steven S. DeKnight.

Charles

14-09-08, 09:46 PM

Well I think B/X is dead because of FDW's words that vampires make up the most important men in Buffy's life. If Buffy and Xander were ever going to be anything more then co-workers, I tend to think she would have a different line that one. X/D would simply be the final nail in the coffin of that possiblity.

As for the stand alones, I agree that these will be minor characters getting some focus. So addition to the confirmed Kennedy and Satsu ones, I would guess either/or Simone and Fake Buffy in Rome as well as...Andrew who has done nothing to this point yet and would serve as a way of tying them all back together to where the Scoobies are.

I would also bet that at the of this arc, we'll see the reintroduction of Giles and Faith back to the gang. That as the season approaches its true turning point and we see Xander's descent (hopefully) begin.

Wolfie Gilmore

14-09-08, 11:11 PM

Well I think B/X is dead because of FDW's words that vampires make up the most important men in Buffy's life.

FDW may not be the best judge of Buffy's emotional connections though - nor present day Willow, who might not be keen to think about Buffy and Xander in that way?

I don't know if they will go for Buffy/Xander, but I still hope so. :)

XavierZane

15-09-08, 12:02 AM

Yeah, I immediately took that line to show that FDW didn't understand Buffy nearly as well as she thought. It's at odds with everything we've seen this season.

vampmogs

15-09-08, 09:59 AM

Yeah, I immediately took that line to show that FDW didn't understand Buffy nearly as well as she thought. It's at odds with everything we've seen this season.

It's at odd with a lot of the whole series IMO. You don't credit a guy like Xander as being "the reason you made it this far" you're "strength" and someone whom "you trust with your life" if he isn't a very, very important part of your life. And I mean honestly, she tells Xander and Willow in 'The Wish' that she got through what happened with Angel because of them and she only started to get close with Spike in season seven. How do either of those two men qualify as the most important in her life? She was what, genuinely close to Spike for a year? And Angel hasn’t been around since season three, Xander’s been by her side for at least nine and a half years now. It's ridiculous there's no way Angel, let alone Spike are the two most important men in her life, I don't care how many times Joss' wants to say it, it doesn't make sense.

Sosa lola

15-09-08, 10:26 AM

I guess that line was said mostly to connect Buffy and Fray. The man who had been there for Buffy from S1 to 8 is just Xander, as for Angel and Spike, they've been living their own lives and fights away from Buffy at the moment. Giles is also living his life and fights away from Buffy.

sueworld

15-09-08, 10:45 AM

It's ridiculous there's no way Angel, let alone Spike are the two most important men in her life, I don't care how many times Joss' wants to say it, it doesn't make sense.

Maybe it's because those two are classified as more important (in a writers standpoint anyway) as they were involved with Buffy on an relationship front and thats what they're fixing on. To the best of my knowledge Xander doesn't come under the category just yet.

Enisy

15-09-08, 12:02 PM

Maybe it's because those two are classified as more important (in a writers standpoint anyway) as they were involved with Buffy on an relationship front and thats what they're fixing on. To the best of my knowledge Xander doesn't come under the category just yet.

Harth qualifies as the most important man in Melaka's life without being in a relationship with her, though... ('Cause, y'know; siblings.)

sueworld

15-09-08, 01:48 PM

Yes, but didn't I read somewhere he was obsessed with her?

It's years since I read the original comics I'm afraid.

XavierZane

15-09-08, 05:24 PM

Dark Willow's line also kind of made me worry that Xander will be turned into a vampire sometime in the season. Could have been huge foreshadowing wrapped in a package that Joss knew would deflect attention away from the actual meaning.

Nina

15-09-08, 06:05 PM

I don't think that they will go that way ... especially because;

They already turned Gunn into a vampire. Besides, if Xander will be a vampire, Willow will give him a soul and we will have three vampires with a soul. A bit too much.

Charles

16-09-08, 01:46 AM

Yeah, I immediately took that line to show that FDW didn't understand Buffy nearly as well as she thought. It's at odds with everything we've seen this season.

No, actually it's very consistent and right in line not only with the season but with the whole series. He's Joxer to Xena and Gabrielle.

And by that I mean, they say the right things, they give reassurances but when it comes down to it, the truth is shown by actions not words.

Buffy was in love in Spike for the better part of two years most likely, hence both of her lines in S7 "Why do people think I'm still in love with Spike" and "He's in my heart" to Angel. And in 'First Date' she steps over Xander's bleeding body to check on Spike. Recovering only after Wood does his thing.

That pattern carries over to the comics. Where again she offers up the fluffy language but as Xander's world collaspes in on him in the wake of Renee's death, Buffy's there in the immediate aftermath but very quickly distances herself from him, opting to spend time with Satsu, her current lover. Moreover the next time we see them talking, Willow is also present and it's not so much conversation as it is filling the silence with noise so they won't have to think to much.

I realize that there are legitmate story related reasons for Buffy, Willow and Xander's actions/reactions towards one another. But I believe that its story telling and building like this that has caused many a thread debating most of the same topics mentioned here regarding the relationship of the Scoobies.

Again this is just my opinion but I think the only real connection between Buffy and Xander at this point is Dawn. She's Buffy's most important connection to the world and probably Xander's only real close friend now. As Buffy and Willow have grown more distant and occupied with other matters, the bond between Xander and Dawn has strengthened. That's why...

I firmly belive if and Twilight tries to kill her, that Xander will go postal and kill him, and assume his place as this season's big bad trying to end all magic since by then the existence of magic and demons will have cost him more then any other character in the B'Verse

KingofCretins

16-09-08, 02:20 AM

That pattern carries over to the comics. Where again she offers up the fluffy language but as Xander's world collaspes in on him in the wake of Renee's death, Buffy's there in the immediate aftermath but very quickly distances herself from him, opting to spend time with Satsu, her current lover. Moreover the next time we see them talking, Willow is also present and it's not so much conversation as it is filling the silence with noise so they won't have to think to much.

This is a non-textual reading of 8.15 and 8.16, to say the least. There is not a panel or line that supports this "distancing" you allege -- quite the opposite.

Xander wasn't abandoned to mourn and see to Renee alone, this was established as being his choice, per his scene with Dracula. This is followed up in 8.16 when he says that he dealing with it by himself -- he wasn't passive-aggressively bitching about Buffy and Willow, he was telling them to back off a bit. This is made obvious by its placement after them trying to walk on eggshells around him on page 6 of 8.16.

Buffy physically distanced herself by going to New York, but even this is textually established as not being a form of ditching Xander. Again, quite the opposite -- it's implied that she'd meant for him to come along until they discovered Dawn's situation. And it's Xander himself who says he wouldn't feel right about leaving his squad, confirming that he understood he had had the option of going with them previously.

Again this is just my opinion but I think the only real connection between Buffy and Xander at this point is Dawn. She's Buffy's most important connection to the world and probably Xander's only real close friend now. As Buffy and Willow have grown more distant and occupied with other matters, the bond between Xander and Dawn has strengthened. That's why...

I firmly belive if and Twilight tries to kill her, that Xander will go postal and kill him, and assume his place as this season's big bad trying to end all magic since by then the existence of magic and demons will have cost him more then any other character in the B'Verse

Buffy and Xander have been depicted as nearly codependent so far in Season 8. They are always the first people each other turn to for counsel and just to vent -- 8.01, 8.02, 8.06, 8.11. To borrow from Willow in "The Yoko Factor", right now Buffy and Xander are the two who are the two, and she's the other one. She and Xander haven't exchanged more than a few lines all season, and Buffy and Willow have been strained since 8.10. Xander's relationship with Dawn has been shown as being nearly incidental to his relationship with Buffy -- he's around for her to talk to, but he and Buffy are the closest thing to Season 8 BFFs so far.

Since it's just speculation, I won't bother spoiling -- I don't get how Xander would "assume Twilight's place" to try to end magic when Twilight himself is already trying to end magic. That's just... bad storytelling. If you're going to do an "along came a spider"-esque villain swap, it's not going to be Villain 2 having the *exact same* agenda as Villain 1 and just thinking they can do it better. The new villain would need to have its own agenda. Twilight being a stooge and a pawn of some greater nasty that only wanted to take advantage of his campaign for its own purposes would play, but not just Xander -- whom I can't even fathom would have the resources to kill Twilight on his own even if he got it in his head to try -- killing him just to takeon Twilight's own agenda.

Slayer+

17-09-08, 04:41 PM

Some of the original writers don't need to come back... That's all I'm saying.

sueworld

17-09-08, 05:05 PM

Oh I disagree, I'd love to see more 'old school' writers back. I can't wait to see what Jane Espenson's going to do with her Harmony issue for a start. :D

Slayer+

18-09-08, 06:44 AM

Oh I disagree, I'd love to see more 'old school' writers back. I can't wait to see what Jane Espenson's going to do with her Harmony issue for a start. :D

I think some of the oldies got comfortable for format and style over the years -- Faith's arc was written by a newbie and it was just perfect. I'd like to see more new blood.

Maggie

18-09-08, 08:10 AM

Maggie

18-09-08, 08:19 AM

It's at odd with a lot of the whole series IMO. You don't credit a guy like Xander as being "the reason you made it this far" you're "strength" and someone whom "you trust with your life" if he isn't a very, very important part of your life. And I mean honestly, she tells Xander and Willow in 'The Wish' that she got through what happened with Angel because of them and she only started to get close with Spike in season seven. How do either of those two men qualify as the most important in her life? She was what, genuinely close to Spike for a year? And Angel hasn’t been around since season three, Xander’s been by her side for at least nine and a half years now. It's ridiculous there's no way Angel, let alone Spike are the two most important men in her life, I don't care how many times Joss' wants to say it, it doesn't make sense.

It makes total sense. Buffy defines herself in terms of her romantic relationships. Face it -- in the first three seasons her most passionate immediate concern was Angel, not her friends; and she turned to Spike instead of her friends in seasons 6 and 7. Her friends mattered, but the romance was where her true heart was.

Xander is only the most important guy if he gets turned and hooks up with Buffy. IMO. Maybe it's not fair. But it's how Buffy's heart works.

Sosa lola

18-09-08, 12:27 PM

It makes total sense. Buffy defines herself in terms of her romantic relationships. Face it -- in the first three seasons her most passionate immediate concern was Angel, not her friends; and she turned to Spike instead of her friends in seasons 6 and 7. Her friends mattered, but the romance was where her true heart was.

Xander is only the most important guy if he gets turned and hooks up with Buffy. IMO. Maybe it's not fair. But it's how Buffy's heart works.

Buffy's heart is quite shallow. :D

I don't know. I believe in the motto "Boyfriends come and go. Friends are there for life." Which funnily enough applies in Buffy's situation. All her lovers left: Angel, Riley, Spike and Satsu. Who's still here? Xander and Willow.

Maybe Future Willow's quote means that Buffy will unite with Angel and Spike in the future? Big romance will fly and so on. And I guess there is a difference between a boyfriend and a friend. Sure, friends are more devoted, but the boyfriend is the person you're gonna spend your life with, so he comes first.

I think Spike matters, Maggie, and I really wish Buffy will know that he's alive. Joss had mentioned that Spike will arrive in S8 at some point, so I expect a reunion. I don't know how Buffy will take it...

Buffy: "You've been alive for over two years now and you didn't have the decency to tell me!! One phone call, Spike, one phone call!!" :mad:

Spike: :err:

sueworld

18-09-08, 12:43 PM

Buffy finding out about Spike is not significant? Piffle. Piffle. Piffle. He was only the main guy in her life for years. The one who'd seen the worst of her and the best of her yadda, yadda. You might as well say that it would be insignificant if she discovered that Xander had survived a fiery death in the hell mouth on her behalf. You wouldn't say it of Xander. It's absurd to say it of Spike.

And frankly it's an insult to Buffy. She's not a vacuous cow.

Yeah, quite. But then some would like to think that considering it's Spike we're talking about here rather then (as you point out) Xander. :lol:

Buffy was shown as being too hard in season 7 because of that kind of attitude, I'd hate to see her labeled with it again just because Joss wants us to have 'short memories' when it her conection with past characters that were important in her life.

For example my father was important to me, but when he died I didn't forget him just like that.

KingofCretins

18-09-08, 02:34 PM

In just 22 pages of redefining the "rules" of the Buffyverse, is Spike relevant? Is his role so important in Buffy's life that her reaction to this has to be dealt with where the audience can see?

The answers are no and no.

Even assuming (and we have no reason to assume this) that Harmony and Buffy interact in 8.21, it's perfectly reasonable that it wouldn't come up, or if it did, that it would come up only as a reference and not as a big expository catching up by Buffy.

And then there's the bigger question, about whether we have to see Buffy deal with all of this because it's Spike. Of course we don't. We didn't get her being caught up on Connor on screen at any time. And if it's about what she went through mourning Spike... sorry, no. We didn't see the post Season 6 wrap-up of Willow being taken away to England and the gang seeing to Tara. I'd say that Giles taking Willow away (who we know thought she was going to be executed) rates higher for something that we should know how Buffy felt about at the time than Spike does. This is nothing new -- we're only getting all those details when they are essential to telling the story Joss is focused on at that time. Buffy and Spike is not that story. If there's any kind of reference, I doubt that it would be any more extensive than Willow mentioning Kennedy's "mystical death" to Buffy.

And another thing you seem to be ignoring -- maybe Buffy already knows he's back? There's no real argument to be made that Buffy "forgot" about him just because he hasn't come up in great detail, of course, but let's assume for a minute there is -- maybe she knows he's back and that's why she doesn't spend time on it?

Matt

18-09-08, 02:44 PM

And another thing you seem to be ignoring -- maybe Buffy already knows he's back? There's no real argument to be made that Buffy "forgot" about him just because he hasn't come up in great detail, of course, but let's assume for a minute there is -- maybe she knows he's back and that's why she doesn't spend time on it?

I believe Buffy already knows he's back, I mean, judging from her fantasy in 8.03 with her, Angel and Spike chained together it gave me the impression that she knew he was alive. Why would she be fantasizing about somebody she believes is dead? Surely that'd be too morbid for her?

I know she dreamt about Angel when she killed him, but that was out of grief and those dreams in no way compare to the fantasy of Spike, Angel and Buffy.

Slayer+

18-09-08, 05:34 PM

I believe Buffy already knows he's back, I mean, judging from her fantasy in 8.03 with her, Angel and Spike chained together it gave me the impression that she knew he was alive. Why would she be fantasizing about somebody she believes is dead? Surely that'd be too morbid for her?

I know she dreamt about Angel when she killed him, but that was out of grief and those dreams in no way compare to the fantasy of Spike, Angel and Buffy.

He's a vampire, already dead. How much more morbid (morbid-er?) can it get?

Matt

18-09-08, 06:42 PM

He's a vampire, already dead. How much more morbid (morbid-er?) can it get?

I meant in the never coming back sense of the word, which is what Buffy must've believed Spike was. Surely if she lost somebody that she was that close to in the "never coming back" sense then she wouldn't really feel like fantasising about the dead party because it would be a bad place to go.

If she thought Spike was dead forever and didn't know he was back wouldn't she have broken down and possibly started crying at the sight of him?

I bet she already knows he's back.

Koos

18-09-08, 07:13 PM

and she turned to Spike instead of her friends in seasons 6 and 7. Her friends mattered, but the romance was where her true heart was.

Yeah, because that was a romance. Especially in S6. :s

She went to Spike because she wanted to feel again. And she could only do this with someone who did NOT matter to her. Someone who was simply there and to whom she had no emotional connection. And that happened to be Spike.

It's true that romance is more important in Buffy's life though. Friends suddenly become totally unimportant to her when she's dating. Which is a character-trait in her that I can understand to a certain degree, but in her case it is something that I loath at times. I, for one, would never want to be her friend. It's also why I really would like Xander to be gone from Buffy. He should escape to LA and do his thing there, joining Angel and Spike. He 'sfar better off that way.

Enisy

18-09-08, 07:21 PM

It's true that romance is more important in Buffy's life though. Friends suddenly become totally unimportant to her when she's dating. Which is a character-trait in her that I can understand to a certain degree, but in her case it is something that I loath at times. I, for one, would never want to be her friend. It's also why I really would like Xander to be gone from Buffy. He should escape to LA and do his thing there, joining Angel and Spike. He 'sfar better off that way.

Was there ever anything about bringing Xander on to Angel?
Nicholas Brendon: Joss was going to kill him in the last episode but he was talked out of it by other writers. Xander and Angel never got along, if Spike had his own show Xander could go there, because he and Spike got along in that they didn't. But DB and I never -- he was brooding over there and I was watching him brood. That doesn't make for good TV.

Had to get in my daily quotage contribution. You can resume your conversation now. :p

Oh, but:

Yeah, because that was a romance. Especially in S6.

Wesley: It's not always about holding hands...

KingofCretins

18-09-08, 07:30 PM

sueworld

18-09-08, 07:33 PM

In just 22 pages of redefining the "rules" of the Buffyverse, is Spike relevant? Is his role so important in Buffy's life that her reaction to this has to be dealt with where the audience can see?

Oh surely you jest?

He had an increasing role from season 5 onwards and ended the show helping her save the word, to say nothing of being a love/sex interest for the lead character during two seasons, which does amount to something fairly important in dramatic terms.

To make out that Buffy has just swept her past relationships with either Spike or Angel under the rug would make her in my mind just look hard. The auidence of fans for both those character deserve some kind of on screen resolve I believe.

Joss and your good self may want us to forget the past, but some of us have long memories. :D

Enisy

18-09-08, 07:41 PM

He wouldn't have been a good tonal fit without the writers kind of going back to Season 2 and remembering what it felt like to take the character more seriously more of the time.

I wasn't making an argument against Xander-on-Angel, really, just posting related trivia. I don't feel strongly about this one way or the other.

But is it ever about physical abuse, manipulation, and that other thing?

Was their relationship ever all about that?

KingofCretins

18-09-08, 07:46 PM

I take it more as him wanting his audience to remember that the series is bigger than Buffy/Spike and Buffy/Angel, which is something about half his audience seems at times singularly unwilling to do. Just from this thread -- *everything* Joss is doing in this *very* complicated story arc in which Spike is not even a character has to be put on hold so that Buffy can get big exposition from Harmony on the subject of Spike. I mean, we literally don't even know if both characters will even be in the issue, but Joss is still obligated to address it or it will be some kind of failure on his part.

Enisy

18-09-08, 07:48 PM

Oh, I'm pretty sure Joss digs the attention. He would have gotten the Obligatory Revelation and/or Reunion out of the way already, or confirmed that it wasn't going to happen, if he didn't want us arguing about it. ;)

sueworld

18-09-08, 07:52 PM

I take it more as him wanting his audience to remember that the series is bigger than Buffy/Spike and Buffy/Angel, which is something about half his audience seems at times singularly unwilling to do. Just from this thread -

Yeah, thats all very well and good, but dumping main players and supposedly having her deal with it off camera is bound to make some of the audience want some kind of closure however briefly on camera. I'm amazed that some seem unwilling to recognize that.

Would you have been happy If this had been Xander instead of Spike?

KingofCretins

18-09-08, 08:03 PM

The same way -- I wouldn't, just because I like the character, expect irrelevant exposition about him would get shoehorned into a storyline which has nothing to do with him. Indeed, wouldn't it have theoretically been just as "necessary" for him to show up or be mentioned with regards to Cordy, for instance, after Season 5? Or when she was missing following Season 3? Him and the others, really? Sure.

Would it have had any bearing at all on the actual story at those times? None. Whatsoever.

Much like Spike and Buffy's history has nothing at all to do with this "vampires in public" arc.

sueworld

18-09-08, 08:11 PM

The same way -- I wouldn't, just because I like the character, expect irrelevant exposition about him would get shoehorned into a storyline which has nothing to do with him.

Err, why does it have to be a case of 'all or nothing'. Surely a halfway house could be created.

Would it have had any bearing at all on the actual story at those times? None. Whatsoever.

We're not talking about interrupting the story flow here. A simple brief bit of closure could easily be fitted in amongst things without disrupting the main story arc.

It's just a case of Joss not wanting to (and hey, it's his toys and so his rules) and people like yourself who have no sympathy for the character and don't want him anywhere near the comics.

I'm no Spuffy, but I can imagine that it must grate on some fans how this part of the Buffyverse history has been delt with, or not as the case may be.

Koos

18-09-08, 09:59 PM

Was there ever anything about bringing Xander on to Angel?
Nicholas Brendon: Joss was going to kill him in the last episode but he was talked out of it by other writers. Xander and Angel never got along, if Spike had his own show Xander could go there, because he and Spike got along in that they didn't. But DB and I never -- he was brooding over there and I was watching him brood. That doesn't make for good TV.

Apparently Joss has said that Xander (and Giles) will never appear in Angel's show. I'm not sure why. The argument that Xander and Angel don't get along isn't really valid as Spike and Angel also didn't get along.

I'm confident that the three will get along pretty fine as long as they are at the other side of the world than where Buffy is.

We're not talking about interrupting the story flow here. A simple brief bit of closure could easily be fitted in amongst things without disrupting the main story arc.

I don't see the need. Spike died saving the world in S7. That was his ending in Buffy's show. It was a very nice closure. So, I really don't see the need to have again another closure that only would disrupt this closure.

Besides, the list of things of pressing things is long.

1. I have been waiting for some closure between Xander and Faith for more than four years. So, that has to happen first.

2. Closure between Buffy/Giles. For some reason there was no time for this at the end of S7. And it is even further out of control.

3. The Scoobie-gang (or at least Xander) knowing that Cordy has died.

4. Closure between Buffy and Faith.

5. What has happened in the period right after Chosen and before S8 started? There're still some unanswered questions about this period. For example Buffy's need to rob a bank. Or Xander willfulling join Dracula as his manservant? And why did it take to long for Buffy to 'save'him.

6. Related to point 5, but listed as a separate point: what has happened with Dana?

7. Anya showing up for one final visit for Xander as he didn't have the chance to see her die. (That was, unlike the way Spike died, no closure.)

8. Angel-Buffy from the Damage issue. Not really an pressing point for me. But more pressing that Buffy knowing that Spike is alive.

The list is long.

Vampire in Rug

19-09-08, 03:13 PM

I don't think we necessarily need more Spike/Buffy interaction and we sure don't need it right now. As far as Buffy's concerned, Spike's dead. He died heroicly saving the world, said his final words to her and I think that's the best kind of closure a character can get. And from Spike's point of view... well he's got other, way more important things to do right now than catch up with Buffy. The last time he spoke on the subject he said that he's made his peace with Buffy, and is happy for her to remember him as a hero. And since Harmony was the person he discussed this with, it's entirely possible that she might choose to respect his wishes and not mention him to Buffy. If they even interact.

I'm sure we'll get a Buffy/Spike/Angel reunion eventually. But we don't need it right now.

On the other hand, maybe this will be the revelation about Spike. The point is, it shouldn't have to be. If Buffy finds out about Spike in this arc, I hope it's due to something relevent to the current storyline and not just fanservice. Fanservice is weak.

sueworld

19-09-08, 03:50 PM

I hope it's due to something relevent to the current storyline and not just fanservice. Fanservice is weak.

I always find it funny that some folks use the term 'fanservice' when it's a thing they just don't like, where as others might call it good writing. :lol:

'm sure we'll get a Buffy/Spike/Angel reunion eventually.

I somehow doubt that. I think Joss views Spike's old relationship with Buffy as 'old news' and just wants to sweep all of that 'unpleasantness' under the covers.

We don't want even hints of the past affecting his 'brave new world', eh? :roll:

Nina

19-09-08, 04:00 PM

I don't get the negative thoughts about Joss and his treatment of Spike. If there is one character that is saved by Joss time after time ... it's Spike. Joss wasted way too much time with Bangel and Spuffy scenes in the last episode of BtVS ... Buffy's last word on the show was 'Spike'. The only time Buffy didn't get the last shot of a season, was season 6 where Spike got that spot. Really Joss is the last person I would say about that he would ignore Spike or a relation from the past.

sueworld

19-09-08, 04:11 PM

I always viewed Spikes character as one that developed through the show due to all the other staff writers rather then Joss directly.

Season 7 was the big exception to that, but on the whole all the really great Spike stories seemed to be penned by the other writers.

All of Joss's own stuff never really featured him all that much, but hey we all have our favorite characters and we all know that Wilow was his.

Really Joss is the last person I would say about that he would ignore Spike or a relation from the past.

Well judging by Koo's list above I still think otherwise. Looks like Spike would be in good company too. :lol:

*waits for King to hit the reply button*

KingofCretins

19-09-08, 04:15 PM

Actually, the Most Important Plot Point Ever, the Spike news, might be coming soon -- after Harmony's appearance, one of the standalones will pair Buffy and Andrew together. Even if Buffy doesn't interact with Harmony, Harmony is ostensibly going to be a celebrity -- maybe she says something to the press that tips Buffy off and she asks Andrew about it.

sueworld

19-09-08, 04:18 PM

Oh I doubt it.

I think maybe we're meant as an audience to think she'll say something, but the scenario we see her presented in won't allow for that kind of info to be passed along.

KingofCretins

19-09-08, 04:27 PM

One would think, but as Joss probably knows that there is a chunk of his audience that think he's abusing and conspiring against them by daring to tell a story that doesn't revolve around Spike, a character in a different series, he may relent. It would just mean he'd have to fit the whole reacting-to-vampires-being-in-the-open-and-Slayers-being-enemies thing around the "A" plot, which is of course always Spike.

That way, he can read the emails and see the posts demanding to know why that's all they got and when he's going to write an entire arc about Buffy's thoughts about the Spike situation.

sueworld

19-09-08, 04:38 PM

One would think, but as Joss probably knows that there is a chunk of his audience that think he's abusing and conspiring against them by daring to tell a story that doesn't revolve around Spike, a character in a different series, he may relent.

Ha there you go! It's always a case of 'all or nothing' for you isn't it? :roll:

Who says we're asking for a huge info dump, or an A line plot involving his character? I'm certainly not. As I said earlier I just want a wee bit of closure. I'm quite happy for Spike to stay on AtF myself, but that shouldn't effect creating some kind of brief piece of closure for the Buffy's past love interest. I'd expect the same If it had been Angel.

I'm sure a great writer such as Mr Whedon could come up with some kind of scenario. Some piece of throwaway dialog he could sneak into a conversation between characters that would more then cover it? Or don't you think he capable of that without it ruining the book or swamping the text?

Enisy

19-09-08, 04:54 PM

Wow, you guys are bitter. And for what? Because Spike is popular? Judging from Joss's past tactics when it comes to 'shipping, he's only going to get a reference and/or a reunion later down the line; not take over the A-plots, or usurp Xander's role as male lead in Season 8. Chill.

KingofCretins

19-09-08, 05:07 PM

No, I'm bitter that Boba Fett is popular, and that George Lucas therefore shoe-horned the character into every corner of the prequel trilogy.

With Spike... I'm more just exasperated. I just myself said that, with the interview, there's reason to think that he might be addressing it -- the pairs are all pretty much themed. Xander and Dawn and Giles and Faith are together when this all happens. Satsu and Kennedy are both beneficiaries of the spell facing this new situation. Buffy and Andrew... have this Spike shaped elephant in the room. That's it. The pairing alone implicitly confirms the subject matter.

But really, I can already tell it will be insufficient. If a line, why not a whole page, if one page, why not two. That's not theory, that's fact -- because the "what about all the Spike and Angel stuff and 'Damage' and does she know" stuff got much *worse* after the dream panel in 8.03, not better. I don't question Joss' ability to give it out in a way, and only to an extent, that it doesn't disrupt the story (Buffy reacting to Faith being in Angel's head). The question is whether the fans can actually consume and enjoy it instead of instantly pushing back their plate and saying "more please".

sueworld

19-09-08, 05:18 PM

Trouble is (and I know as you dislike the character you may have a hard time grasping this) but there are still many fans of both of the Vampire love interests from the original show.

Spike has a still got a lot of fans and so I'm not surprised that some might want more, thats the side effect you get when a fanbase invests so much time and energy into a show and following it's characters, as strange as that may seem, but I for one realise that his story is 'done and dusted', and as far as Joss is concerned he's character is old news.

Somehow I doubt If we'd be hearing these arguments If we'd been talking about some body else here, Xander for example? :roll:

I look forward to seeing what comes up in this issue with 'baited breath'. :roll:

XavierZane

19-09-08, 05:36 PM

Hey, I love Spike. I can't wait to find out if Buffy knows, and see her reaction if she's finding out. I wouldn't even mind if most of the Buffy/Andrew issue were them talking about Spike being back and how she feels about that. I would eat that up. But then I'd go back to the story at hand, which Spike is no part of and hasn't been all season.

And it's not because his story's dead. He has his own mini for Yahweh's sake! His story is the very opposite of dead. His story is just his story now, and it's a separate one.

KingofCretins

19-09-08, 05:47 PM

Trouble is (and I know as you dislike the character you may have a hard time grasping this) but there are still many fans of both of the Vampire love interests from the original show.

I'm tired of you telling me what character's I like or don't. Using your definition of liking being "the character is at its best only when chained to something, shirtless, and bouncing from bed to bed", no, I don't like him. I'm the big "hater" that thinks his stories should have plots and not simply be an escapist blow-up doll.

Somehow I doubt If we'd be hearing these arguments If we'd been talking about some body else here, Xander for example? :roll:

You make this same pithy remark constantly and I always answer the false accusation rationally. Unlike you, I don't put my favorite characters above the story Joss is trying to tell.

sueworld

19-09-08, 05:54 PM

I'm tired of you telling me what character's I like or don't. Using your definition of liking being "the character is at its best only when chained to something, shirtless, and bouncing from bed to bed",

Now who's making sweepings statements? :roll: Considering your attitude towards him in various post can I find your like of his character very hard to believe.

Unlike you, I don't put my favorite characters above the story Joss is trying to tell.

Err, I don't either, but then I gather you're back to making sweeping statements again. Either that or you just don't understand my attitude towards this verse. :xd

And it's not because his story's dead. He has his own mini for Yahweh's sake! His story is the very opposite of dead. His story is just his story now, and it's a separate one.

Sorry love, I meant 'dead' in terms of any involvement in the parent comic.

KingofCretins

19-09-08, 06:04 PM

You're the only putative "fan" of the character that's ever had any trouble believing that I like Spike. He's always hovering in or near my top 5. If anything, I think I do a more serious job of defending the character's integrity than most of his alleged superfans -- *I* think he's allowed to have stories, romance, and character development entirely independent of Buffy and Angel. There are still plenty of Spike "fans" who don't buy that he'd have his own reasons to stay in LA and wouldn't make Buffy his priority.

A side-effect of that is that I don't want or need him just shoved in without any bearing. To me, Buffy and Andrew having it out over Spike would be perfectly natural, if it was limited by being in the context of the much, much, much more important situation they were facing. But this thread didn't start with that, this started with the idea that the actual issue in which Joss is going to throw away all the old rules of the Buffyverse should be the one to deal with what Buffy knows about Spike. It was like in "Angel: After the Fall" when Spider wanted Spike to hand over that little staff thing. The context became irrelevant, the overall Season 8 story became irrelevant, the limited space became irrelevant.

Enisy

19-09-08, 06:07 PM

Sue, Allie has confirmed that both Spike and Angel will be showing up later down the line.

But really, I can already tell it will be insufficient. If a line, why not a whole page, if one page, why not two. That's not theory, that's fact -- because the "what about all the Spike and Angel stuff and 'Damage' and does she know" stuff got much *worse* after the dream panel in 8.03, not better. I don't question Joss' ability to give it out in a way, and only to an extent, that it doesn't disrupt the story (Buffy reacting to Faith being in Angel's head). The question is whether the fans can actually consume and enjoy it instead of instantly pushing back their plate and saying "more please".

Does it matter? Fans will always want more, because they care about these characters and these relationships and have done so for years. Joss can just give us as much as he's accustomed to -- as much as he gave Angel/Buffy in your average season, or Spike/Buffy/Angel in Angel Season 5, for example -- and then go back to the story at hand, like XavierZane said. People will push their plate for more (for all I know, I may be one of them), but then, people have been pushing their plate for more Angel/Buffy year after year since Season 3, and the stories that Joss wanted to tell were still told. Why is the fanservice suddenly a problem now, with Spike/Buffy, who actually have some unfinished business to discuss?

sueworld

19-09-08, 06:16 PM

Why is the fanservice suddenly a problem now, with Spike/Buffy, who actually have some unfinished business to discuss?

Hmm, good point.

You're the only putative "fan" of the character that's ever had any trouble believing that I like Spike.

Seriously, I find that very hard to believe myself.

If anything, I think I do a more serious job of defending the character's integrity than most of his alleged superfans

:roll: :roll: :roll: *wheeze* :roll: If you say so love. :roll:

A side-effect of that is that I don't want or need him just shoved in without any bearing.

Strangely enough neither do I.

I was trying to say that in my posts, but I obviously didn't make that clear enough for you. Sorry about that.

But this thread didn't start with that, this started with the idea that the actual issue in which Joss is going to throw away all the old rules of the Buffyverse should be the one to deal with what Buffy knows about Spike.

Fair enough, and as I said before I know his job on the show is long since done, but as a fan of the character I still feel a wee bit cheated as to what Buffy really thought about his supposed demise in Chosen. So a wee bit of 'tidying up' on that front wouldn't go amiss with some.

If nothing else it would shut idiots like me up, eh? :roll:

Soooo, as I said before I shall be looking forward to what comes of this 'loose end' in the next few issues.

I'm sure they'll be wonderful.

Vampire in Rug

19-09-08, 06:19 PM

I always find it funny that some folks use the term 'fanservice' when it's a thing they just don't like, where as others might call it good writing.

I think the term "fanservice" is justified when people feel that their favourite 'ship should take priority over the current storylines. Spike has zero relevance to season 8 at the moment, and as soon as Harmony enters the picture the #1 thing people want is for Spike to come up.

And, y'know he just might. I'd be fine with a throwaway line or a hint but there's no way the Spuffies-shippers would be satisfied with that.

Also, it should be noted that both Harmony and Andrew know that Spike wishes to remain hidden from Buffy for the time being. For them to go out of their way to mention him, would be a real dick-move on thier part. I can imagine Andrew accidently letting something slip, or Harmony blurting out Spike info to distract Buffy to avoid being staked, but I don't think either character would be an asshat to the point of going against his wishes just for the sake of it. And if either of these things happen, a throwaway line wouldn't cut it because it would be OOC for Buffy not to demand more information or make a big issue of it.

I want the story to move forward to create... a good story. I don't want it to slow down every time a section of the fanbase wants the story to cater to them. Spike has his own mini-series and is a supporting character in Angel's. I don't see why some people think Joss should feel obliged to halt/slow down Buffy's story to give some sort of needless "resolution" to their relationship. As far as Buffy's concerned he's dead.

If Spike's pressence is revealed in the Buffy/Andrew arc, great. If not I won't be losing sleep either. I just don't see it as being an important issue that's not already somewhat resolved.

Oh, and if we MUST have a big revelation about dead character that's really alive, I'd rather it be about Warren. Andrew's reaction to Warren being alive? Much more interesting and relevant to the current storyline than Buffy finding out about Spike.

sueworld

19-09-08, 06:26 PM

Oh, and if we MUST have a big revelation about dead character that's really alive, I'd rather it be about Warren. Andrew's reaction to Warren being alive? Much more interesting and relevant to the current storyline than Buffy finding out about Spike.

To you maybe......:lol: But no, I get your point. Warren and Andrew have some very unfinished business that needs addressing at some point to.

And, y'know he just might. I'd be fine with a throwaway line or a hint but there's no way the Spuffies-shippers would be satisfied with that.

Hell, it would be better then nothing, eh? :roll:

KingofCretins

19-09-08, 07:29 PM

Sue, Allie has confirmed that both Spike and Angel will be showing up later down the line.

Does it matter? Fans will always want more, because they care about these characters and these relationships and have done so for years. Joss can just give us as much as he's accustomed to -- as much as he gave Angel/Buffy in your average season, or Spike/Buffy/Angel in Angel Season 5, for example -- and then go back to the story at hand, like XavierZane said. People will push their plate for more (for all I know, I may be one of them), but then, people have been pushing their plate for more Angel/Buffy year after year since Season 3, and the stories that Joss wanted to tell were still told. Why is the fanservice suddenly a problem now, with Spike/Buffy, who actually have some unfinished business to discuss?

The original demand, that this be dealt with in 8.21 because of Harmony being there, is as patently unreasonable as it would have been for Buffy/Angel fans to want some attention on screen, not during "Forever", but during "Crush". Not off-screen after "Flooded", but on-screen during "Dead Things". And his appearance in "Chosen" *was* jarring precisely because it *didn't* flow into the actual story, and I know you've said so yourself.

The very fact that you already know that the characters themselves will appear eventually makes this all the more puzzling -- by definition, there's no need to deal with this now, to shove aside valuable panel space in the middle of the five issues that will do more to completely alter the Buffy mythology, even more than "Chosen". You already know how this goes -- they will see each other and interact, when the story can slow down long enough for them to do it. There's just no argument that it must be dealt with now or Joss is somehow screwing you guys over.

Enisy

19-09-08, 07:32 PM

I never "demanded" that it happen in the Harmony issue or the Andrew-Buffy issue; I speculated. That's still allowed, right?

KingofCretins

19-09-08, 07:37 PM

You? No. But there are 93 odd posts in this thread. And more posts that bring it up on DH, or SA, and other websites. The "demand" mindset is out there, and that's what I'm talking about. It's an 'editorial' you that knows, because basically everybody does, yes, there will be Spike and Angel, in the ensouled vampiric (or not as the case may be) flesh, for Buffy to deal with later in the season. And yet there is also this sense from this thread and others that if Joss doesn't pony up the goods through another character -- Harmony or Andrew -- he's still not showing the proper love.

For me, I think it's enough love that he technically spoiled "After the Fall" to the extent that those two survive to go see Buffy. I mean, that's more assurance than anyone had after "Not Fade Away", isn't it?

Enisy

19-09-08, 07:41 PM

You have to take into account that "later down the line" means years, at this season's pace. I can't blame people for being impatient to learn what Buffy knows and feels about the subject, what she doesn't.

sueworld

19-09-08, 08:10 PM

You? No. But there are 93 odd posts in this thread. And more posts that bring it up on DH, or SA, and other websites. The "demand" mindset is out there, and that's what I'm talking about.

Having that mindset isn't actually the same as voicing it in that manner. I can only speak for myself but I've never demanded anything. I've said it would be great, and that I'd feel rather shortchanged if it wasn't properly addresses at some point, but thats hardly along the same lines as "I won't buy this comic unless yada, yada, yada".

As to Joss's comments about the fact that those two will be coming back into the parent comic. Well forgive me If I don't totally believe thats what we're going to get. Just having them back could mean basically anything, from just a flashback or another one of Buffy's fantasies. Even that flashback in an upcoming issue of Buffy when she's back at high school could count when it comes to poor old Angel.

KingofCretins

19-09-08, 08:19 PM

See, I don't get it -- Joss is the farthest thing from your enemy, there's never been anything he's bent over backwards to indulge more than Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike 'shippers. The next time he screws them over in the way you're suggesting he might would be the first. That's probably what's so frustrating, is the sense that Joss can't be trusted to give up the goods for guys, or that it's unfair you have to wait, when he's pretty much always had your back.

Try keeping one of Xander's girlfriends from getting killed, Willow from being power hungry, or somebody's father being a jerk, for comparison.

sueworld

19-09-08, 08:27 PM

Try keeping one of Xander's girlfriends from getting killed, Willow from being power hungry, or somebody's father being a jerk, for comparison.

Oh please, all that shows is he screws everybody over. :roll: So at least he's consistent.

Sosa lola

19-09-08, 09:12 PM

Well, they're his characters. He'll do whatever he wants with them ;)

I think Joss' favorite characters (from BtVS) are Willow and Spike. They get the most of storylines, obvious character-growth, he tortures them ( :D ), then gets them to the top, and they were the main players in saving the world in Chosen. The ones who ended their redemption storylines with a great payoff.

Every writer is going to have a favorite character and flashes him/her out so fans will see how great they are. Other characters may be forgotten, underdeveloped, have lots of unsolved issues just because the writer isn't interested in them anymore.

We may hate it, but that's how things go in the world of storytelling. It depends on the writer and how his/her muse works.

Curiouswolf

19-09-08, 11:52 PM

I'm kinda amused by this argument for it seems obvious to me that there is a good possibility that the person Buffy met in New York present day during the "Time of Your Life" arc was Spike.

sueworld

20-09-08, 12:31 AM

Go on, I'll bite. What make you think that then?

Vampire in Rug

20-09-08, 01:00 PM

Hell, it would be better then nothing, eh?

Better than nothing? Maybe. But it usurps the current status quo of Buffy believing that Spike is dead. And if this is not dealt with in a lengthy way then it creates all sorts of problems.

Buffy thinks Spike is dead? No need for her to talk about him or ask questions about him! It still leaves the door open for Buffy to find out about him at a later point, but seeing as how it's not a major issue right now -it wouldn’t hinder the story at all if she thinks he stayed dead.

She finds out he's alive in a throwaway comment? That opens a whole can of worms. You might think a throwaway comment would be better than nothing, but I think it would piss people off even more if Spike was revealed to Buffy in a throwaway comment and then left at that. Buffy should do a double-take and have all sorts of reactions. She'd want to know who else knew, why neither Angel nor Andrew said anything. Is he still a vampire? Does he still have a soul? Why wouldn't he contact her?

This is one of those things that deserves to be dealt with properly.

sueworld

20-09-08, 01:48 PM

This is one of those things that deserves to be dealt with properly.

I agree, but I have the feeling it will be a very long time coming, if ever.

Vampire in Rug

20-09-08, 05:06 PM

Good. There are way more important things for both characters to be dealing with seperatly right now.

Matt

20-09-08, 05:57 PM

I'm kinda amused by this argument for it seems obvious to me that there is a good possibility that the person Buffy met in New York present day during the "Time of Your Life" arc was Spike.

A) Spike's kind of in LA and in hell at the moment and B) why would Buffy get dressed up to go and see Spike?

Which forms another question, who exactly would Buffy get so dressed up for to visit them? Her father? (Seems a bit random.)

Also, I'm still thinking Buffy knows, but he was hardly the love of her life and, frankly, they've both moved on judging from Season 8 and ATF (both Spike and Angel). It's probably one of those things, like Connor and I assume Cordy's death, where they find out off screen.

There were lots of things that were obviously dealt with off screen, Buffy's funeral/service or whatever caused her to get a gravestone, Willow telling Angel that Buffy had actually died, all of the stuff in between the seasons really.

And I don't get the sudden big deal with her "having" to find out, just because Buffy's being partnered with Andrew (like he'd've managed to keep his hole shut that long) in their own issue and Harmony's returning. If you ask me the plot at the moment seems more inclined for the story to be about Buffy and Andrew dealing with Simone Doffler rather than Spike being back considering this is the arc where the Slayers and the supernatural world go public.

Enisy

20-09-08, 06:05 PM

A) Spike's kind of in LA and in hell at the moment

Not necessarily he isn't. Different timelines in After the Fall and Season 8, remember?

and B) why would Buffy get dressed up to go and see Spike?

Um. Most recently... reread Issue 3 for a hint. ;)

Also, I'm still thinking Buffy knows, but he was hardly the love of her life

Yeah, only one of the two most important men in her life (at least in the romantic department), according to Joss.

I really don't want this to turn into a 'shipping debate, but please don't present unfounded assertions as facts, kthx.

That said, I don't think she was meeting up with Spike, there. I think it was probably Satsu.

Matt

20-09-08, 06:18 PM

I really don't want this to turn into a 'shipping debate, but please don't present unfounded assertions as facts, kthx.

That said, I don't think she was meeting up with Spike, there. I think it was probably Satsu.

I forgot about the timelines thing, although the difference wouldn't be that big, season 5 of Angel would've been a majority of the year between season 7 of Buffy and season 8 and then he was unconscious for about 2 months so they're not that far apart.

I'm just saying the "getting dressed up" thing because she never dressed glamorously when she was seeing Spike in the show, she always just used to wear casuals, but I agree it seems likely she was going to see Satsu, I mean Satsu and Kennedy have to meet up somewhere for their issue, right?

And I'm not trying to turn this into a 'shipping debate because I don't have a 'ship, anyway, I was just saying that everybody seems to be going on about Spike quite a lot as if it's a big deal and it really isn't.

Charles

20-09-08, 06:25 PM

The only person I remember her ever getting dressed up to see was Angel.

Which if you think about it, would explain why she doesn't want to divulge that particular information to Willow. Or Xander for that matter.

Enisy

20-09-08, 06:29 PM

I forgot about the timelines thing, although the difference wouldn't be that big, season 5 of Angel would've been a majority of the year between season 7 of Buffy and season 8 and then he was unconscious for about 2 months so they're not that far apart.

We don't know how fast (or how slow) time goes by in Hell-A.

I'm just saying the "getting dressed up" thing because she never dressed glamorously when she was seeing Spike in the show, she always just used to wear casuals,

Well, she hasn't seen him (or Angel, or Riley) in ages, so it'd make sense that she'd get dressed up for a reunion. But like I said before, I somehow doubt it was any of them.

but I agree it seems likely she was going to see Satsu, I mean Satsu and Kennedy have to meet up somewhere for their issue, right?

Yep. Moreover, from Scott Allie's comments on the subject, I expect we have yet to see the full payoff of the Buffy/Satsu fling -- for better or for worse.

KingofCretins

20-09-08, 07:30 PM

"After the Fall" could very easily already have been over when Season 8 started, so that's not an issue... but while I think it would be more likely to use that surprise for Twilight's identity (Angel or Spike was "there" the whole time) than it would be for the meeting in New York. I don't think Buffy put on the ****tail dress and @#$% me boots for her father, so I stick with my two main theories that she's either meeting Riley for information/hitting on him/having an affair with a possibly still married man or is meeting Oz, either just to hang or romantically, which I can at least justify on the basis of knowing he's going to show up anyway. But those would both be pretty drastic new angles for Buffy, whereby Buffy meeting Angel or Spike in secret from her friends is about as new as the 8-track.

Koos

20-09-08, 08:46 PM

Somehow I doubt If we'd be hearing these arguments If we'd been talking about some body else here, Xander for example? :roll:

That's because Xander has blatantly been ignored while he also has a huge fanbase. Hell, when he gets some screentime any normal regular would get, it's suddenly an Xander-arc.

sueworld

20-09-08, 09:19 PM

That's because Xander has blatantly been ignored

He wasn't ignored that much was he? I mean his role in later seasons seemed to be lessened probaly due to Poor old Nicks personal problems.

Hell, when he gets some screentime any normal regular would get, it's suddenly an Xander-arc.

Well 'Nick Fury' Xander is getting it now, so his fans can't complain, can they? :D

Koos

20-09-08, 10:18 PM

He wasn't ignored that much was he? I mean his role in later seasons seemed to be lessened probaly due to Poor old Nicks personal problems.

Joss has said that he had no arcline for Xander already in S5. That was after S4, a season where a lot of Xander fans find that he pushed into the background. (I find that he got a decent arcline in S4 though). But in S5 he didn't get much.

IMO in S6 he was used for the Spuffy arcline alone. In that there was a lack of respect for the character. But at least he was important and he got a normal amount of screentime.

In S7 there was no respect for his character at all. None. And the lack of
Nick isn't covering this.

Well 'Nick Fury' Xander is getting it now, so his fans can't complain, can they? :D

He's getting screentime that belongs to a regular castmember. But not anymore than that. He still have barely something that can be called an arcline. And a lot of things on the list I mentioned are concerning Xander. But I guess the writers don't give a damn about them.'

Let alone that he's getting his own comics.

sueworld

20-09-08, 10:33 PM

IMO in S6 he was used for the Spuffy arcline alone.

Eh? What about the dark Willow payoff that season? Even Joss said he was meant to be the hero that saves the day in that.

He didn't do much in season 7 because of Nicks 'problems' so how could they possibly deeply integrate him into the plot when they weren't sure he could handle it?

Koos

20-09-08, 10:45 PM

Eh? What about the dark Willow payoff that season? Even Joss said he was meant to be the hero that saves the day in that.

Was that his arcline or Willow's? IMO he was used to conclude Willow's arcline. That he was used in a positive way, doesn't take away that it was not a part of his own.
The whole Xander/Anya stuff was nothing than a plotdevice of the Spuffy arcline though. Hell, the whole negative atmosphere of S6 was only there to make the Spuffy arcline possible. Therefore Willow's and Xander's arcline had also got be negative. That it didn't fit Xander's own arc didn't matter. Joss just forced it in.

He didn't do much in season 7 because of Nicks 'problems' so how could they possibly deeply integrate him into the plot when they weren't sure he could handle it?

They could have a short Xander/Faith scene, couldn't they.
Or maybe a last talk between Xander/Anya before he left her forever. (Because he did plan to do that when he left Sunnydale with Dawn). They could also give him a short moment to mourn for Anya's death, couldn't they. They also could have given him a more than just two lines in the kicking out scene in Empty Spaces. Hell, one would think he would get even more after what had happened to him in Dirty Girls.

Just to mention some things. It's not that it takes up a lot of time, but it is showing that he's still a character that matters to the writers.

sueworld

20-09-08, 10:54 PM

That it didn't fit Xander's own arc didn't matter. Joss just forced it in.

Every character is just there as a prop for to enrich Buffy's own storyline. Thats what they're there for.

Xander was enraged by what Buffy was doing, and quite frankly he was entitled to be. It didn't make him seem like the 'bad guy' to me.

They could also give him a short moment to mourn for Anya's death, couldn't they.

Oh I'm sure they'll address that in season 8 at some point. :roll: *doesn't hold her breath*

They also could have given him a more than just two lines in the kicking out scene in Empty Spaces. Hell, one would think he would get even more after what had happened to him in Dirty Girls.

Sadly we don't really know how and things had got with Nick by then, so for all we know thats why they stuck him into the background. I suspect thats why the dreaded Andrew was brought into the proceedings and ended up delivering lines that years ago Xanders character would have delivered.

hawkedup

20-09-08, 10:54 PM

I thought the Season 6 finale was by far the worst of the series. It was just so... Blah. Xander saves the day because he's worthless? Please.

sueworld

20-09-08, 10:57 PM

It wasn't because he was 'worthless', far from it. It was because he loved Willow and thats what gave him the strength to reconnect with her and to bring her to her senses.

Koos

20-09-08, 11:22 PM

Every character is just there as a prop for to enrich Buffy's own storyline. Thats what they're there for.

It wasn't there to enrich Buffy's story, but Spike's.

Xander was enraged by what Buffy was doing, and quite frankly he was entitled to be. It didn't make him seem like the 'bad guy' to me.

There was no reason, no explanation, no built up and no aftermath the Xander 'he had to leave' Anya. And Xander was really pictured as the bad guy in this. That was of course to make Spike look better by comparison. Like they did with every male character in the show. And if that is not possible than they are useless and not necessary anymore. See Xander in S7, where his place was replaced by Wood and Giles. And after Giles has had his turn he was put into the background as well.

Sadly we don't really know how and things had got with Nick by then, so for all we know thats why they stuck him into the background. I suspect thats why the dreaded Andrew was brought into the proceedings and ended up delivering lines that years ago Xanders character would have delivered.

Xander was also replaced by Robin Wood.

It wasn't because he was 'worthless', far from it. It was because he loved Willow and thats what gave him the strength to reconnect with her and to bring her to her senses.

I loved that moment. It's one of my favorite moments of the whole show. It had a strong message and there was finally a good moment for Xander and Giles. But it was not part of Xander's arc. Xander had already been reduced to supporto guy and plotdevice.

Enisy

20-09-08, 11:25 PM

The whole Xander/Anya stuff was nothing than a plotdevice of the Spuffy arcline though. Hell, the whole negative atmosphere of S6 was only there to make the Spuffy arcline possible. Therefore Willow's and Xander's arcline had also got be negative. That it didn't fit Xander's own arc didn't matter. Joss just forced it in.

Wow. And here I thought Willow's and Xander's arcs were the product of the "Oh, grow up!" theme, as Joss called it (which was the logical continuation of Season 5, since Buffy's sacrifice in The Gift signified the end of an era, adolescence). I also had the distinct impression that Joss had conceived the Dark Willow storyline about a year before he conceived Spike's feelings for Buffy... But no, it turns out Spuffy ruined the other characters' storylines again, as it ruined all of television.

Say it with me:

http://p-userpic.livejournal.com/73482998/13903156

sueworld

20-09-08, 11:32 PM

It wasn't there to enrich Buffy's story, but Spike's.

And his story in was there in turn to support Buffy's. It is her show after all.

That was of course to make Spike look better by comparison.

Sorry, now you're really being silly there. Of course it wasn't. Given the circumstances he had every right to behave as he did. He wasn't there to play the villain.

Enisy

20-09-08, 11:38 PM

Sue, your new banner is neeeeat. Spangel screenshot + Spuffy quote = Hawtx2. *approves*

And his story in was there to turn support Buffy's. It is her show after all.

And to back you up with quotage:

Marti Noxon: Once Joss found his hook in the story -- that she had been in a good place -- he was really committed to the idea that she would not be all cheery when she got back. [...] A recurring theme in Joss's work and both shows is that life is hard and it's people's actions and relationships that make it liveable.

In which Joss's "hook in the story" miraculously doesn't include the word "Spike"... whodathunkit...

sueworld

20-09-08, 11:41 PM

In which Joss's "hook in the story" miraculously doesn't include the word "Spike"... whodathunkit...

Yeah, funny that! :roll:

Koos

21-09-08, 02:47 PM

And his story in was there in turn to support Buffy's. It is her show after all.

Well, I guess I must have missed that then.

Sorry, now you're really being silly there. Of course it wasn't. Given the circumstances he had every right to behave as he did. He wasn't there to play the villain.

Silly? I'm not even trying to play the advocate of the devil here. Ever since the spuffy arc got off in S5 the other male characters have been bashed on. It started with Riley.

The only moment where two male characters got a good moment, Xander and Giles, was in final episode of S6. Which, you know, happened when Spike was off the continent. The moment he got back the bullshit continued again. Xander was this time not involved, so there was no arc for him and he got shoved into the background. Wood and Giles werd used this time. And of course all the characters were bashed in Empty Spaces and Touched so Spike can have his moment. Then finally Angel got bashed and misused to have Spike his heroic moment. To make the comparison complete, Xander could not have his moment with Anya on purpose and he had to smile at the end.

Marti Noxon: Once Joss found his hook in the story -- that she had been in a good place -- he was really committed to the idea that she would not be all cheery when she got back. [...] A recurring theme in Joss's work and both shows is that life is hard and it's people's actions and relationships that make it liveable.

I guess that's also the reason that why at the end of S6, when Buffy had decided to see life and the light again, she was again turned into a dark state in during S7.

Enisy

21-09-08, 03:02 PM

Silly? I'm not even trying to play the advocate of the devil here. Ever since the spuffy arc got off in S5 the other male characters have been bashed on. It started with Riley.

LOL. Three words: As. You. Were.

I guess that's also the reason that why at the end of S6, when Buffy had decided to see life and the light again, she was again turned into a dark state in during S7.

Bad handling from the highers-up. It's the same case with Season 8, where she's also regressed back to a state she was supposed to have grown out of in Season 7 (and there's no Spike for you to blame it on this time -- how do you live with it?).

sueworld

21-09-08, 03:28 PM

Ever since the spuffy arc got off in S5 the other male characters have been bashed on. It started with Riley.

Oh please, give me a break....:roll:

Well, I guess I must have missed that then.

Seems like you missed an awful lot of what was going on judging by your other complaints. :roll:

The moment he got back the bullshit continued again.

What you're coming up with isn't a coherent agrguement as to what kind of story they were telling and what was wrong with it, but more about your huge dislike of one single character so forgive me If I can't take a word of what you say seriously. :lol:

Matt

21-09-08, 04:08 PM

Just read No Future For You again and it seems fairly certain that a majority of this arc, not necessarily #21, will deal with Simone Doffler. I say this mainly because she was Andrew's charge and she went all rebellious, but also because Faith and Giles are returning to the story and considering they planned on forming a Slayer "reform" thing it would make sense for them to turn up and take Simone Doffler or just to return and try to rehabilitate her.

vampmogs

22-09-08, 02:35 AM

Can we not let another thread be hi-jacked by another Spike debate concerning this season? If it's such an issue for you guys make another thread devoted to it?

Originally Posted by Matt
Just read No Future For You again and it seems fairly certain that a majority of this arc, not necessarily #21, will deal with Simone Doffler. I say this mainly because she was Andrew's charge and she went all rebellious, but also because Faith and Giles are returning to the story and considering they planned on forming a Slayer "reform" thing it would make sense for them to turn up and take Simone Doffler or just to return and try to rehabilitate her.

That would be nice. I thought that the Giles/Faith thing may deal with Simone as well but the Buffy/Andrew story also has a good chance of dealing with this. It'd be quite cool if they were one of the reasons people started hating on slayers in the first place.

Weredog

30-09-08, 03:38 AM

Does anybody know the title of this arc? I'm just thinking for when these five issues will be released in trade paperback...

Matt

30-09-08, 07:41 PM

Does anybody know the title of this arc? I'm just thinking for when these five issues will be released in trade paperback...

Well #21 is called Harmonic Divergence, but I have a feeling that the following 4 will have the same title and be part 1 etc. My feeling for this is because it's Harmony's issue and then different members of the gang dealing with that issue, so it'd make sense for them all to be linked somehow.

Speaking of the TPB I can't wait to see the cover for this, consdering there's Harmony and then the other 8 characters, how is Chen gonna get all of them on one little panel? Also, I'm interested to see the TOYL TPB cover, but that's not really anything to do with this.

Moscow Watcher

01-10-08, 03:45 PM

Then finally Angel got bashed and misused to have Spike his heroic moment.

Angel was bashed in EOD and Chosen? Now, that's something new. :)

I wonder how you define "bashing" and if the term includes Buffy basking...

Speaking of Harmonic Divergence - does anybody have an impression that season 8 turns into a reload of kind. Something similar to Star Trek 11?

Skippcomet

02-10-08, 08:14 PM

Speaking of Harmonic Divergence - does anybody have an impression that season 8 turns into a reload of kind. Something similar to Star Trek 11?

Not at all. Frankly, from what I've seen you post elsewhere about the next few issues/arcs, I've had to remember that that English isn't your first language. I think you're taking all the talk about "changing Buffy's world" too literally. The story isn't traversing different universes or dimensions; events in Buffy's world are changing the status quo of that world. From what I can gather, Harmony's probably going to have a role in the rest of the world discovering the existence of vampires and thereafter deciding that vampires are cool, but Slayers suck because they kill vampires. Not an alternate universe, just one where things have changed. Kinda like when the Berlin Wall was torn down, or when the US abolished slavery.

Sosa lola

03-10-08, 01:18 AM

Not at all. Frankly, from what I've seen you post elsewhere about the next few issues/arcs, I've had to remember that that English isn't your first language. I think you're taking all the talk about "changing Buffy's world" too literally. The story isn't traversing different universes or dimensions; events in Buffy's world are changing the status quo of that world. From what I can gather, Harmony's probably going to have a role in the rest of the world discovering the existence of vampires and thereafter deciding that vampires are cool, but Slayers suck because they kill vampires. Not an alternate universe, just one where things have changed. Kinda like when the Berlin Wall was torn down, or when the US abolished slavery.

I agree. Buffy's first line in S8 was "The thing about changing the world… once you do it, the world’s all different."

The world is already changed. Since Chosen. Slayers are everywhere, Buffy's secret isn't a secret anymore. The goverment and people all over the world know about slayers. And now vampires are going public, people around the world will be aware of vampires. That's what they mean about the world changing.

vampmogs

03-10-08, 10:00 AM

Agreed. That's why it's such a big thing for the Buffyverse. And what makes it even more interesting is that vampires are regarded as good and slayers bad. And we all saw how that turned out in 'Lie to Me' :roll:

some spykie ship

29-10-08, 08:07 PM

I'm not sure that I need to, but I'll put this in spoiler tags anyway:

This all reminds me of the time ratio in the Jossverse of hell dimensions and the world above. Even though Angel: AtF isn't over yet when this issue comes out, Harmony escaping before LA went to hell may not have been the case. I was thinking more along the lines of everything on Angel: AtF being over already because what happened in hell could have happened in a shorter time frame on the BtVS side of things. Whatever Angel and the others did to get out could be long done, and I wouldn't be surprised if this hellish world of vampires being "in" is a result of whatever they did. I'm not bashing any characters here. Whatever Angel has to do to get LA County out of hell probably won't be pretty because of W&H.