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View Full Version : How did Amy....get all evil.



modifiedblind
29-08-08, 12:32 AM
She's quite evil now with Warren in Season 8. In Season 7, she was showed as very jealous of Willow's powers and used Willow's grief against her.

Let's take a step back. In Season 1, Buffy and Amy were friends, they both cheered on the cheerleading squad although neither made it. After that altercation Buffy and Amy seemed cool. Willow and Amy obviously were friends, dabbling in the arts for Buffy's birthday gift in "Gingerbread" and Buffy had Amy's back when the bullies were harassing the Teenage Warlock by the lockers. So from what we see, they are friends. Granted, Amy uses her mojo on the teacher for a late assignment but that in itself, can't be labeled evil, just alittle over the line of what is acceptable (But not evil). At the end of Gingerbread, she turns into a rat and much to Buffy and Willow's dismay, they can't, rehumanize her. Although countless attempts are tried, Willow simply had no idea.

In Season 4, Willow does bring Amy back for 3 seconds, so in those three seconds we don't get much insight into who Amy is, accept she's happy she's not a rat.

In Season 6, when Willow needs a magical friend around she gets Amy back to normal. From then on, Amy's character starts down a weirdly dark path. I saw weirdly because, she didn't come off as a druggie in High School. So, Willow and Amy have their fun at the Bronze, then they go to see Rack. (I don't understand how she would know of him, since she just became human, she may have known about him in High School, but still the descent into drugs seemed weird for Amy.) They go all crazy, end result is Dawn breaking her arm in the car accident. From this point when confronted with Willow, Amy sees Willow doesn't want Amy around anymore and so far as to say, "That Amy doesn't want to make her mad" so a pretty big threat. Then Amy is gone.

Season 7 shows us a new Amy, one that is so jealous of Willow's friends, and Willow's abilities that she puts a curse on Willow, just for the fun of it. (thats how it seems to me.) She puts Willow through this dark twisted journey of actually being Warren, it's sick, and evil. Although she has no qualms about it because Willow did decide to destroy the world, she feels Willow needs to go down a few pegs. I'm not exactly sure how Amy got so much hatred for Willow in so little time. Or how she was quickly turned into this evil witch.

Season 8, we see that she was one of the few left when Sunnydale collapsed... (Which is funny because if she is so powerful, wouldn't she have deduced the fact that all hell was breaking loose?... but I digress.) When the Gov. place her in a prison cell, she says she will help them kill her. Which I assumed was Buffy, that's who they want, but honestly coming from Amy it may have meant Willow. Later we find out she saved Warren from dying. How in the hell did she know to go look for him? Why is her character evil now, working with Twilight.

I guess we didn't get to see her road/journey, as we have other characters so it could explain somethings. I'm just sort of confused as to how Amy, became such an Evil Witch, who wants to kill the Scoobies. Not just Willow, she has it out for Buffy and everyone as well. What did they ever do to her? They helped her when her mom was a psychotic witch, and they took her into their group a little. I just don't get Amy being this evil and with a boyfriend like Warren.... anyone help with the splainy?
:s

RuFio
29-08-08, 02:14 AM
It was implied in "Wrecked" that Amy had met Rack before she was even a rat. Amy was definitely into some black magic in season two, but not until season three did we see a change in her appearance. She went from blonde to brunette. Perhaps this is when Amy was getting into the serious dark arts and started going to Rack.

So she was a rat for a few years (which would probably alter any persons personality/mindset a little) and she was brought back by Willow for good in season Six. When she first got turned back she wasn't evil, she was just wanting to live: albeit rather recklessly. Amy's inkling toward black magic turned Willow against her eventually and in the end prevented her from ever really becoming part of the scoobies. A big turning point for Amy's descent into darkness was when Willow told her in a VERY harsh manner to pretty much stay the F away from her.

Now I agree that Amy's magic wasn't good for Willow or really good in a general sense, but Willow should've confronted her in a friendlier manner. I mean, they had been friends for a long time & Willow was really cold to her in the end. She could've tried to HELP Amy instead of just cutting her out.

So, Amy probably grew super resentful that Willow told her off and had gotten so powerful but left her in a cage for 3 years. So I think Willow's "break-up" with Amy caused her to sink even deeper into darkness. And plus from the very beginning she was exposed to evil and dark magic from her mother. And a lot of the time, a woman comes to resemble her mother.

vampmogs
29-08-08, 07:12 AM
I actually got to admit that the idea of Amy following Willow and saving Warren makes 'The Killer In Me' make far more sense. I know it's not the most beloved story this season but it explains a lot about Amy in that episode and the spell she used.

Rack could sense Willow's power in 'Villains' so it makes sense Amy could to. So she follows Willow, still scorned by Willow telling her to hit the road back in 'DoubleMeat Palace' and sees her about flay Warren. She intervenes and thinks, hey now I can get back at her, this guy will want his revenge. So whilst getting Warren up to his strength, it's stated by Warren he was barley able to walk by the time Willow was dating Kennedy, Amy continues to spy on Willow like she did towards the end of season six. This explains how she knows Kennedy is a potential slayer, that Willow was dating her and explains why her spell turned Willow into Warren of all people, Amy supposedly hadn't even met Warren. It also explains how Amy knew Willow nearly destroyed the world and that all her friends still loved her once she returned from England. So having Amy bring Warren back actually explains a hell of a lot about Amy, how she knew so much and her intentions in 'The Killer In Me.' Especially when you take into account Warren was also fuelling her on, wanting to play with Willow as well.

As to why Amy is so hell bent on making not only Willow, but Buffy pay as well? Well it was stated in ‘The Long Way Home’ that Amy went crazy down in the Hellmouth and that she ate, “whatever else was down there.” So basically, the girl was trapped under the collapsed town for at least a year in a half, in which time she had to resort to cannibalism to survive. It explains the crazy and after such a hellish time it also explains why she’d be so angry at Buffy as well, in her eyes it’s Buffy’s fault that she was trapped in the first place. Also take into account she’s spent around two years with a guy who loathes Buffy and who’s been whispering in her ear the entire time, it’s gotta have an effect on her eventually.

And I also agree with Rufio, she’s shown signs that she’s capable of embracing the dark side of magic’s, just like Willow has. Though Joss hasn’t completely written her off as a flat out evil character, although given her actions of late she’s certainly needing a smack down in my opinion. Amy is a lot like her mother Catherine now and we know that the idea of becoming like her mother terrifies Amy. Buffy saw it in her dreams when under Amy’s spell and used the imagery of her mother to temporarily disillusion Amy in ‘The Long Way Home.’ It stopped her right in her tracks. I think it demonstrates that there is still a chance for Amy to be rehabilitated, but given her mental instability and everything she’s been through in the past year and a half she’s lost herself a bit.

dinamo
29-08-08, 08:43 AM
what kind of witch was her mother? I'm sure her mother has been mentioned before maybe there is scope there for more to be revealed about her as we go along, and what terrifies Amy about the prospect of becoming her. Maybe she's not evil, maybe she just wants to be the opposite of Willow. It could be argued when Willow was at her most evil, on the surface of it, Amy commited a very ''good'' act by saving the life of someone Willow was trying to murder. And now Willow is trying to be good Amy is the opposite direction. She seems to be like the Faith to Willow's Buffy.

vampmogs
29-08-08, 09:36 AM
what kind of witch was her mother? I'm sure her mother has been mentioned before maybe there is scope there for more to be revealed about her as we go along, and what terrifies Amy about the prospect of becoming her.

Amy's mother was Catherine Madison, the witch in 'Witch' who switches her body with Amy so that she can relive her glory days in highschool. She wants to be on the cheerleading squad and puts horrible spells on people standing in her way. She made Cordy go blind and nearly killed Buffy when she realised Buffy knew she was a witch.

stormwreath
29-08-08, 11:37 AM
I wrote a fanfic about Amy's descent into darkness here: This Isn't About Hate (http://stormwreath.livejournal.com/15682.html). To summarise:

I agree with RuFio that Amy was already visiting Rack in Season 3. She was a magic addict. I'm guessing that she was trying to convince herself that she enjoyed it, it was fun; but secretly she hated herself for it.

In S6 she wanted Willow to join her in her addiction, and was happy when things started going that way. But when Willow decided to go cold turkey and cut her off, Amy became massively resentful. She transferred her own self-hatred into hatred of Willow - Willow who was just the same as Amy, but thought she was better. The same jealousy and bitterness also extended to Willow's friends, who were willing to help her but shut Amy out completely.

That, of course, got even worse when Willow went off the rails at the end of S6. If Amy was spying on them (magically, I assume, rather than literally hiding in the bushes) I expect she'd feel vindicated - see! Willow is worthless after all! I was right! But then she'd see Buffy and Xander still not giving up on Willow, but helping her even whan she went world-destroyingly evil; and I can imagine Amy tearing out her hair and screaming "What does it take?!"

So she 'rescued' Warren. Note scare quotes - she certainly wasn't doing him a favour, changing him into a hideous shambling skinless zombie thing. I think she did it to spite Willow and to gain an ally who has reason to hate Willow as much as she does. Plus she has complete control over Warren - she says five words ("let the spell be ended") and he'd dead again.

I also strongly suspect that The First had a hand in things. In 'The Killer In Me' Amy's words twice echoed what The First said - "Oops" and "It's about power". Did The First appear to Amy as her mother, and promise to teach her dark magic, make her powerful?

And finally, I suspect that all those years as a rat had more of an effect on Amy than she'd admit. Scuttling around in the darkness deep below Sunnydale's ruins, eating corpses? The perfect life for a rat. And also a good reason why she would be stark staring mad now...

sunnydale_alumni
29-08-08, 04:17 PM
Amy's mother was Catherine Madison, the witch in 'Witch' who switches her body with Amy so that she can relive her glory days in highschool.

I always wanted to see a return of Catherine. I was hoping that one of those season finale endings, the explosion in season 3 or the town destruction in season 7, would free "Catherine the Great" from the spell.

Charles
29-08-08, 10:37 PM
Given that she's turned into Pod Amy, I'm going to guess that at some point her mother got free or did something that corrupted Amy or even swapped bodies with her again.

modifiedblind
30-08-08, 05:30 AM
Given that she's turned into Pod Amy, I'm going to guess that at some point her mother got free or did something that corrupted Amy or even swapped bodies with her again.

That's actually sort of an interesting idea, I like it. I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic but, honestly, it'd be a twist to Amy's story. Plus if she regained control of her body, she could redeem herself.

Vampire in Rug
30-08-08, 10:30 PM
It's an interesting idea, but remember how freaked Amy got when she saw the image of her mother? Why would Catherine be freaked out by an image of herself? Also, she's not in highschool anymore, so she doesn't need to masquerade as Amy anymore even if she is stealing her body.

Matt
30-08-08, 10:34 PM
It's an interesting idea, but remember how freaked Amy got when she saw the image of her mother? Why would Catherine be freaked out by an image of herself? Also, she's not in highschool anymore, so she doesn't need to masquerade as Amy anymore even if she is stealing her body.

I think maybe, in answer to the former, is that if this were to happen then Catherine has been stuck inside her daughter's body for so long that seeing herself like that would kind of freak her out, although I doubt she'd call herself "Mom".

Also, I think Catherine would masquerade in Amy's body, although she isn't in high school, because Amy is younger than her and probably more powerful, Rack seems just like the kind of thing that Catherine would've been into.

I think, on a sidenote, that if this were true it'd be explained that when the high school blew up the trophy was destroyed and Catherine's essence was released, or she herself was, and she used the time to track down her daughter, discovered she was a rat and either did another body-swap or just possessed her, although it seems unlikely that this would happen 'cause it sounds a little too fanfic-y for my tastes.

Charles
01-09-08, 12:50 AM
That's actually sort of an interesting idea, I like it. I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic but, honestly, it'd be a twist to Amy's story. Plus if she regained control of her body, she could redeem herself.


Catherine's soul/spirit/essence was freed in the explosion that destroyed the school. Unfortunately it couldn't possess Amy again as she was a rat. It wasn't until Amy was de-ratted that Catherine was able to influence and 'merge' with her.

Hence explaining Amy's dramatic shift in attitude and increase in power.

RuFio
01-09-08, 01:58 AM
I think it'd be cool if somehow catherine did get out of the trophy but I don't like the idea of her switching bodies with amy again. It's been done and would just seem too contrived at this point.

Matt
01-09-08, 10:39 AM
I think it'd be cool if somehow catherine did get out of the trophy but I don't like the idea of her switching bodies with amy again. It's been done and would just seem too contrived at this point.

It has been done before, but I think it wouldn't be contrived at all, it would certainly explain Amy's behaviour since her mother was cursed, I know she was all pissed about not being freed from being a rat earlier, but before she was a rat she didn't seem all bad and it would make sense that Catherine possessed her after the rat and it could be explained that the trophy was broken, causing the switch or possession to happen.

The_Narrator
01-09-08, 11:41 AM
The writers didn't originally plan for the explosion of the school in Season 3 to release Catherine, as seen in this cut scene from Doomed:


Willow nods. Makes a face. Steps on another piece of debris.

CLOSE ON DEBRIS

It's a CHEERLEADING TROPHY, black with smoke-damage. In fact - it's
AMY'S MOTHER. Still entombed, her eyes dart desperately as Willow's
foot comes CRASHING DOWN ON HER. After Willow moves off, Amy's
mom GLARES AT HER despite her impotence.

BACK ON GANG

Unaware of the life-form in their midst.

Matt
01-09-08, 04:25 PM
The writers didn't originally plan for the explosion of the school in Season 3 to release Catherine, as seen in this cut scene from Doomed:

I'd seen that before and I guess from that they wouldn't, but they could use it as a way to write off why Amy is evil, it'd be a slight cop out to me, but hey.

One question though wouldn't Amy's mom have died from starvation by season 3?

Rowan Hawthorn
01-09-08, 08:54 PM
Amy was already capable of fairly advanced spells in Season Two, including transmogrification ("Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered", where she turned Buffy into a rat.) At the same time, she was already using the magick for selfish "shortcuts" (dodging homework assignments,) much like Willow would do later on, and was showing the same blackened eyes while working those spells that her mother, and later Willow, showed while using dark magicks. Willow mentions in "Something Blue" that "She's got access to powers I can't even invoke." Now, Willow's depressed and down on herself at the time, but I don't think there's any reasonable doubt that Amy was considerably ahead of Willow at the time she turned herself into a rat in "Gingerbread." In "Smashed", it's Amy who talks Willow into going out and "having fun", and she knows exactly which buttons to push: "Or ... maybe ... you'd rather sit home all night, alone, like in high school." Throughout this episode, and the next, Amy isn't just an accomplice, she's an instigator, pushing Willow deeper into misuse of her powers.

Amy doesn't see any problem with the things she and Willow have been doing, including Willow making some guy's mouth disappear - on the contrary, she thinks it's cool. Everything's just rockin' until
1) Amy introduces Willow to Rack, who then decides he likes Willow better than Amy,
2) Willow crashes and decides she's had enough, which is a big disappointment to Amy, who thought Willow was someone
3) Amy doses Willow with a spell, resulting in Willow laying things on the line and telling her to stay away. (There are some addled people who think there's a problem with Willow's attitude here, but y'know what? That's the equivalent of watching someone slip a recovering drug addict a dose without their knowledge - and then blaming the dosee for being upset.)

Amy got progressively more selfish and self-centered since her first appearance; she's upset with Willow for "turning against her"; and she's upset with Willow's friends for standing by her. That was the whole point of the hex she cast that resulted in "The Killer In Me". By the time of TKiM, she'd had a year from "Doublemeat Palace" to work on her own abilities - to the point where she was able to influence Willow without Willow even being able to sense her presence or her handiwork - and as of Season Eight, she's had another year and a half since then.

Remind me again of how this is such a dramatic change in either attitude or abilities for Amy?

watcher1006
01-09-08, 10:13 PM
I for one believe it's Amy we're dealing with in the comics and not Catherine.


And finally, I suspect that all those years as a rat had more of an effect on Amy than she'd admit. Scuttling around in the darkness deep below Sunnydale's ruins, eating corpses? The perfect life for a rat. And also a good reason why she would be stark staring mad now...

Yes, I think that being a rat for three years may have contributed to Amy's downhill slide. Also I feel it was inevitable that, coming back from being a rat and seeing how much Willow could do at that point that she would blame Willow for not having tried hard enough to change her back. She all but tells her that in S6 "Doublemeat Palace", showing her resentment I think for having missed out on three years of human existence.


Amy got progressively more selfish and self-centered since her first appearance; she's upset with Willow for "turning against her"; and she's upset with Willow's friends for standing by her. That was the whole point of the hex she cast that resulted in "The Killer In Me". By the time of TKiM, she'd had a year from "Doublemeat Palace" to work on her own abilities - to the point where she was able to influence Willow without Willow even being able to sense her presence or her handiwork - and as of Season Eight, she's had another year and a half since then.

Remind me again of how this is such a dramatic change in either attitude or abilities for Amy?

Totally agreed. I thought that the degeneration of Amy's character over the course of the series was one of its most interesting side stories. Even between S1 "Witch" and S2 "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered" she goes from being an innocent victim of her mother's use of magic to being a practitioner of the black arts herself. I feel that Amy's story illustrates the power of witchcraft to corrupt those who use it for their own purposes, and as such is an important counterpoint to Willow's own story.

Charles
04-09-08, 01:33 AM
Remind me again of how this is such a dramatic change in either attitude or abilities for Amy?

Because we don't see her or hear any mention of her for period of time and the whole thing still reeks of Joss pulling it out of his hindquarters?

And that the actress seemed to have a better grasp of the character then the writers did, which isn't unusual for the BtVS Writing crew and Joss in particular as Michelle illustrated in one interview.

Rowan Hawthorn
04-09-08, 03:49 AM
Because we don't see her or hear any mention of her for period of time and the whole thing still reeks of Joss pulling it out of his hindquarters?
That's your opinion, which, as usual, seems to be limited to "anything Joss does sucks." I haven't seen the tide come in on Anastasia Island for a period of time, either, but I seriously doubt that it's just standing frozen in place waiting for me to come back. In other words, just because you don't personally witness a person's work doesn't mean they aren't working. We didn't see what happened between "Becoming, part II" and "Anne", either, but sometime during the summer months, the gang (including Cordelia, of all people,) apparently decided to cover for Buffy and established some rudimentary plans for doing so. Gosh, how could they have done that? We didn't see them for several months, guess that was something else Joss "pulled out of his hindquarters," huh?


And that the actress seemed to have a better grasp of the character then the writers did, which isn't unusual for the BtVS Writing crew and Joss in particular as Michelle illustrated in one interview.

Translation: their ideas of the characters were closer to yours than to what was, oh, say, actually written by the people who created them. Now, which version should we consider definitive? (By the way, I've heard actors say things about their character that made it seem pretty obvious that they weren't at all following what was going on. A couple of anecdotal comments open to debate as to their accuracy doesn't stack up to "not unusual". Except for those who desperately want it to.)