Buffy 8.18 "Time of Your Life, Part III" Spoiler Discussion [Archive]

Charles

21-08-08, 11:08 PM

well the art continues to be horrible...

-Willow just looks downright ugly in some of those panels. She should be the centaur with the horseface she's got there in the 2nd to last panel.
-Naked Willow turns out to mean snakey time. Gee who didn't see this coming...

-Buffy's depressed and lonely. and Upset. Why that's a huge change from previous years. Except she's done it pretty regularly from S2 onward. *Yawn*
-Sorry don't care two craps about Fray or Buffy's emotions since they're ever so predictable.

-Now the actual INTERESTING part of the story, Xander & Dawn. So we get yet another sexual reference which suggests that this will be the 'romance' Xander was promised down the road in the spoilers. And it'll backfire horribly not only in the comic world but with the fans since of the available pairings Xander/Dawn is right up there with Xander/Andrew as being the one guaranteed to generate huge amounts of hate and disgust from the fandom.

So when Joss does go down that path (and I really hope he does) the backlash will be fun to watch. Especially those in vain trying to find the good in it.

-But back to the story, Tree people... I'm guessing Joss thought these guys were cooler or his version of Treants and they're design is just made of fail. Watch and see as Dawn manages to talk the Treants/Tree people out of killing Xander and her as she tries to pretend she's also a forest creature.

Or not.

Overall this arc continues to be 2/3's bleh and one-third car crash worthy of rubber-necking for.

smashed

21-08-08, 11:15 PM

Wow, Dawn/Xander. Ew, Ew, Ew!

Agh, Idk what to think.
With the fairytale kisses, talking forrests, fairies, and gargoyles, this is starting to seem a lot like a fanfic.

Willow saying Frak was cute though. : )

sueworld

21-08-08, 11:29 PM

I quite enjoyed the first part of that, although the continual fairytale references is really getting on my nerves now I'm afraid.

stormwreath

22-08-08, 12:15 AM

Getting more and more into 'was this a bad idea?' and yeah, love seeing her emotions about it.Likewise loved seeing Buffy cry (well, you know what I mean), but I'm really not getting this "was this a bad idea" thing.

To me, the section seemed to be hammering home the message that it was a wonderful idea, and Buffy is feeling lost and defeated because it looks to her like the Slayer spell has been reversed in the future. Everything is back to the bad old days of one Slayer at a time, and evil is running rampant. This is clearly shown as a bad thing from her perspective.

Tree spirits with burning arms was an interesting development. :s Not something we've seen much of before in the Buffyverse... but I'm afraid I can't sign up with the chorus of people saying "and therefore it's bad." It seems perfectly reasonable that Europe would have a different set of supernatural entities to North America, after all.

KingofCretins

22-08-08, 01:16 AM

Barbossa: The world used to be a bigger place.
Jack Sparrow: World's still the same. There's just less in it.

In the otherwise unremarkable Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End, this exchange between Geoffrey Rush's and Johnny Depp's characters, as they stand on a beach contemplating the dead carcass of one of their worlds few remaining true wonders, stands out as being thematically important.

Modernism, rationalism, incredulity are all in and of themselves crushing forces, oppressors of the mind, the free will and independence of the suddenly very metaphorical pirates in the film itself.

A case could have been made, once, that "Buffy" brought that sort of meta-pirate mentality to fandom -- a refusal to rely on what had been, on girls running up the stairs and being helpless victims, of vampires that only ever kill crush and destroy, of villains without sympathy.

Now, however, it's clear that the ex-pat Buffy fan's lament is quite the opposite of that shared by Captains Barbossa and Sparrow...

Unhappy Letter Writer: The Buffyverse used to be a smaller place.
Angry LiveJournal Poster: Buffyverse's still the same. There's just more in it.

The elements of fairytale in the Buffyverse in Season 8 are in pretty clear thematic alignment with the challenge the gang faces now -- their own enemy crafted of oppressive rationalism and crushing incredulity, Twilight, he who would destroy all the magic and unexplained from the Buffyverse. The point of it is to distinguish between the natural and supernatural world.

In Seasons 3 and 4, the Buffyverse expanded to include the ideas of institutional authority vs. individualism. In Season 6, the Buffyverse expanded to contrast the the responsible life and the fantastic life. And resistance came with it every time, because the world was getting bigger. Or rather, there was just more in it. Season 8 is pushing a bold new theme and as such makes bold new demands as the Buffyverse expands to encompass that theme.

Would Joss have had a more stable and satisfied consensus in his fanbase if the gang had been unendingly in high school, mining every vein of metaphor for the problems of being young and growing up? Yes. Would have have been a creative cipher after more than 5 or 6 seasons of that? Yes.

As to the preview itself...

I'm actually, despite being a pretty intent optimist for Buffy/Xander, am really enjoying the teasing build of Xander/Dawn throughout. It actually makes me wonder what Buffy read in the history books that she found preposterous. For once, I'm pretty sure it must be romantic in nature. It's either her or Dawn with Xander, or Buffy herself in some other romantic situation that sounds nuts to her (i.e. Oz, Faith).

I don't mind the forest full of fire-wielding man-ents. Because, if we watched closely, *every week* on television there was some new mythological concept that hadn't existed before we saw it. If I had a complaint about them, it's not that we hadn't been told such things existed in the Buffyverse, but rather that there was no hint of their existence in such proximity to the BHC. J.K. Rowling lets you know there's a ornery tree near Hogwart's, or centaurs in the surrounding woods, and they later become relevant. Joss could have thrown us some mention of the woods near the BHC being full of fire-wielding man-ents, or at least supernaturally mysterious, if only because it would have built tension from the second Dawn and Xander went in there.

Sacred Knight

22-08-08, 03:56 AM

Overall I like the art. Sometimes the caracture-like features goes a bit too far, like Buffy's face looking way too long on the fourth panel of the third page, but overall I like it. And I love the coloring.
I'm curious as what the bit of info was that Buffy read that was "too ridiculous to comprehend", because that of course will probably turn out true. I'm leaning towards it being a veiled revelation about Willow, maybe something vague along the lines of an old friend becoming immortal or something like that. Though it would be interesting if its something new.

I love Fray and the way she talks. I didn't read the original Fray comics so all I knew came from online research beforehand. The slang is really rough but at the same time I can't help but find it cute.

If by the end of this arc Xander hasn't had the "hook-up" that was spoiled a few months ago, I'll eat my foot. Xander and Dawn stranded together, with no liklihood of meeting up with any of the Slayers anytime soon? Get ready for "one thing to lead to another" very very soon. I'm still big on Buffy/Xander happening for the longterm, but its too much to ignore the signs of Xander/Dawn right now, even if it doesn't amount to anything more than a romp and then much uncomfortableness.

vampmogs

22-08-08, 03:58 AM

Ok firstly.. tree demons *not* new to the Buffyverse. Anyone else remember the giant tree demon from Ats season three, using the internet to chat up dates so it could feed off their life source with its roots in the episode 'Couplet.' So tree monsters.. nothing new I'm afraid.

Plus I agree with King and Stormwreath, where on the other side of the world and just like there's different species of animals, it actually makes sense there'd be different kinds of demons. Just like there was in 'A Hole In The World' with the medievil demons rushing out from the tree to kill Angel and Spike. It's a different place, with different people, different animals.. and different demons.

The Issue;

I really love the opener of Buffy crying over everything that's happened. I like how she makes reference to sketches that could be her and the Scoobs, both the positive ones and the "dire" ones. It'd be quite hard to look at drawings of what could be the future of all those you care deeply about, and have them be horrible. And I agree with everyone, love that Buffy was crying I thought that was great she's so more emotionally open than she had been over the last two years where she'd bottle it all up instead.

The Xander/Dawn scene was also fun, I'm still not sure if Joss is just teasing us but I agree it could become a reality. I liked how both Xander and Dawn easily come to the conclusion of Warren and Amy being responsible, and love how clear it is they loathe both of them to such an extent. Who wouldn't? They need to pay for this one. Love Xander's line "the Laurel and Hardy of being a dick" priceless snark.

The Willow/Kennedy scene was interesting, I gotta say though ever since Tara I'm not a fan of Willow's "pet names" to her girlfriends. That kinda talk just makes me cringe, couldn't stand the numerous "babies" and "I need you" with Tara, and couldn't stand "Ken doll" either :lol: But it's nice to see she's so concerned about Buffy nevertheless.

ThePoet's<3

22-08-08, 04:46 AM

That guy Moline? Cannot draw hands. Buffy's hands look very masculine. Oh well. *shrugs*

The story is fine with me but the Willow/Kennedy panels are more intriguing. And just for the record - Ken Doll? Not flattering or complimentary. I don't care what your preferences are.

Also intriguing is the Buffy panels where she realizes creating the Slayers has not been the best of ideas. ALSO - there's no more mention of them!! So, maybe that means we'll have some magic soon to "De-scythe" the Slayerettes.

And yes - being a Ringer - LOVED the Ents reference!!! Hope we get Elves too!

Rowan Hawthorn

22-08-08, 05:12 AM

EndersWrath

22-08-08, 10:54 AM

-Now the actual INTERESTING part of the story, Xander & Dawn. So we get yet another sexual reference which suggests that this will be the 'romance' Xander was promised down the road in the spoilers. And it'll backfire horribly not only in the comic world but with the fans since of the available pairings Xander/Dawn is right up there with Xander/Andrew as being the one guaranteed to generate huge amounts of hate and disgust from the fandom.

So when Joss does go down that path (and I really hope he does) the backlash will be fun to watch. Especially those in vain trying to find the good in it.
I reeeally don't think he is going for that... I mean it went like this:

XANDER: How're you feeling?
DAWN: Like I was ridden hard and put away wet.
XANDER: AGH! Dawn, that's dis- oh, no. It's just true.

If there are feelings, Xander is disgusted by it... that wasn't really a turn on it seemed. I mean just because he can't have one Summers girl, doesn't mean he has to go to the other.

Honestly, I don't see a realtionship like that building. If so, then it is one sided and Xander isn't into it.

Wolfie Gilmore

22-08-08, 11:00 AM

I'm not real happy with Moline's art in this arc, either, and I don't really know what happened, I thought his artwork for the "Fray" series was fine. Of course, that has nothing to do with the story, but I did find something I didn't like about the dialogue, and that was the Ent's (whether it is or not, that's good enough for now) Marvelicious speech:

"Thus swears Lorelann"?

When I first read that, I thought it said Lorelai. Ents who name their kids after the Gilmore Girls? Hee!

I thought these panels had some comedy gold, though the faces are a bit dodgy still (Willow looked like Dawn with hairdye in one panel). Buffy's moment of emotion is gorgeous. Part of her, I feel, doesn't just want to feel like she made a difference in the moral sense... I think she's spent so long in her life being an outsider and not having anything she does recognised...maybe a little bit, she wanted to be someone important in the history books? Or at least, someone who WAS someone, not just dust in the wind. A less dickwad take on "The trio, you've heard of us."

I think the very conscious Dawn/Xander smut chat is just that... chat. I don't sense any attraction, just them being aware of the possiblity that attraction would be weird. They're kind of defusing it by talking about it so much, imo.

Willow and Kennedy is coming to be a very interesting relationship indeed. "Ken Doll" just makes me think she has no "parts" though. Under her trousers, there's just smooth plastic.

dinamo

22-08-08, 01:08 PM

I hope somewhere along the way after that little snippet of Willow and Kennedy its expanded upon what happened when Willow was with Saga Vasuki, because to me what Willow said seems to indicate she did do something but it was for the ''good'' of others. But I don't know if I was Kennedy I'd see my girlfriend getting naked as for the ''good''

Nina

22-08-08, 04:13 PM

I'm okay with the art, it's not amazing or the best art I've seen in the comics. But it's clear.

Loved the part with Dawn and Xander. I like the idea of them together (it gives both characters story and I like the idea). Friendship or romance ... I don't really care about it. I love that they found eachother. The horse jokes are still funny (but it shouldn't be used too much) and I like their converstation. And wow, trees with abs ... Who needs Spike?

Willow and Kennedy, not the most exciting part of the preview. And Ken-doll sounds like one of Lorne's action figures. But I'm still here in a corner, praying for one working relation in the 'verse. (I already had to say goodbye to Renee/Xander and my dear Gwonner in the last months ... )

I really like to know about the redicilous thing Buffy didn't believe ... would it be about Willow or about ending magic. After season 7, I really wanted to see emotions from Buffy's side ... but I hope that we won't see a page with Buffy feeling sorry for herself in every arc. But I don't complain (yet), emotions is better than season 7.

Charles

22-08-08, 05:55 PM

I reeeally don't think he is going for that... I mean it went like this:

XANDER: How're you feeling?
DAWN: Like I was ridden hard and put away wet.
XANDER: AGH! Dawn, that's dis- oh, no. It's just true.

If there are feelings, Xander is disgusted by it... that wasn't really a turn on it seemed. I mean just because he can't have one Summers girl, doesn't mean he has to go to the other.

Honestly, I don't see a realtionship like that building. If so, then it is one sided and Xander isn't into it.

I would disagree with that he either isn't or wouldn't go for that. Remember Xander has NEVER picked the people he's been in relationships with. Nor has he had ever been the one doing the wooing.

Willow - Moonstruck for him.
Ampata - fell in love with him.
Ms. French - preys on virgins.
Drusilla (and a lot of other people) - love spell.
Cordelia - At first mutual attraction, then it became Cordy who was driving their relationship mostly.
Faith - jumped him via 'being ready to pop'.
Anya - dropped clothes THEN jumped him.
Demon Lady in S7 - Specifically chose him.
Renee - went right after him.

Even Dawn herself as a younger girl pursued him in her mind.

The few times Xander has sought out a date with someone he's attracted to:

-Buffy: Shot down in flames.
-Willow: opted for Oz over him.
-Cordelia: Nasty break-up led to constant snarking.
-Faith: Tried to murder him in the same bed they used. (still hasn't been reconciled).
-Anya: Preferred Spike at first. Later accepted Xander back. Deceased.
-Renee: killed in battle.

One of the recurring hallmarks and themes that Joss re-uses and recycles is that when it comes to Xander his relationships, he plays the role usually associated with a woman in that he defers to his partner's advances.

Buffy's the opposite. She pursues whom she desires and is interested in. Hence it's very unlikely that Buffy will ever see Xander as anything more then that guy who is kind of a brother figure but not really family. And not someone who is that important in her life.

Vampire in Rug

22-08-08, 10:02 PM

Xander and Dawn stranded together, with no liklihood of meeting up with any of the Slayers anytime soon? Get ready for "one thing to lead to another" very very soon. I'm still big on Buffy/Xander happening for the longterm, but its too much to ignore the signs of Xander/Dawn right now, even if it doesn't amount to anything more than a romp and then much uncomfortableness.

If Xander's gonna wind up with Buffy, I don't wanna see him horsing around with Dawn first. If Xander/Dawn is the direction the book is going to take then so be it, but I don't want Xander/Buffy after that. Feels too gross for me.

Also, there's one pretty big thing preventing anything from happening between Xander and Dawn at the moment. And that pretty big thing is Dawn's lower body. The writers are soooo not gonna go there. At this stage the only thing that can happen between Xander and Dawn are maybe some awkward kisses and even that's kinda pushing what's acceptable.

KingofCretins

22-08-08, 10:05 PM

I thought these panels had some comedy gold, though the faces are a bit dodgy still (Willow looked like Dawn with hairdye in one panel). Buffy's moment of emotion is gorgeous. Part of her, I feel, doesn't just want to feel like she made a difference in the moral sense... I think she's spent so long in her life being an outsider and not having anything she does recognised...maybe a little bit, she wanted to be someone important in the history books? Or at least, someone who WAS someone, not just dust in the wind. A less dickwad take on "The trio, you've heard of us."

I think she's reacting to exactly what FDW said in 8.17, a sense of failure. If history hasn't recorded her army at all, if her "better world" has fallen into nearly Whitehat-less dystopian linguistic incoherency, then there is no disguising what the simple meaning is -- they lost. Lost so quickly and thoroughly that they didn't make a contribution worth noting at all.

As for her own ego, Buffy did always feel the lack of recognition and participation in her normal life, a la "Homecoming", but, from "Buffy vs. Dracula" on, she seemed to expect and rely upon her near celebrity status. She asks Warren if he knows who she is in "I Was Made To Love You", very much meaning "Slayer, the" and not Buffy. In "The Gift", she mused that it had been a long time since she'd run into a vampire who didn't know who she was. Unlike the Trio, I think Buffy could be legitimately surprised not to see a clear reference to herself in those books.

I think the very conscious Dawn/Xander smut chat is just that... chat. I don't sense any attraction, just them being aware of the possiblity that attraction would be weird. They're kind of defusing it by talking about it so much, imo.

They talk around it, but it's often the case that "talking around it" is usually a subconscious "talking towards it". It's not my first choice 'ship for Xander, but it's definitely top 3 or 4, and I think that Joss is basically pushing gently toward making us accept that the time of them seeing each other as brother/sister is well behind them. It's not even innuendo laden scenes like these centaur ones, but also "the frilly" in 8.10 and him protesting to Buffy on her behalf in 8.11 that she's okay drinking beer.

Willow and Kennedy is coming to be a very interesting relationship indeed. "Ken Doll" just makes me think she has no "parts" though. Under her trousers, there's just smooth plastic.

I bet if you know the word "plastic" off that sentence, you might have a good working theory on the Ken-doll nickname.

I really like to know about the redicilous thing Buffy didn't believe ... would it be about Willow or about ending magic. After season 7, I really wanted to see emotions from Buffy's side ... but I hope that we won't see a page with Buffy feeling sorry for herself in every arc. But I don't complain (yet), emotions is better than season 7.

I think of it as a sort of meta version of Willow trying to goad Buffy into anger in 6.04 "Flooded" -- because the whole range of human emotions thing. And Buffy hasn't cried or been down on herself for illegitimate concerns this season. The rogue Slayers and the missing legacy are big deals.

I think the preposterous thing she mentioned is something essentially light -- if it was very serious, like Willow or magic, she wouldn't have breezed past it. Whatever it was was so off-the-wall and harmless to her she trivialized it pretty quickly. I'm assuming that means it's either 'shippy (like that she'll be with Oz, Faith, or Xander, or perhaps Xander/Dawn), or that it's the Battle of Starbucks thing. But whatever it is sounded nutty enough not to believe and harmless enough not to worry about.

The few times Xander has sought out a date with someone he's attracted to:

-Buffy: Shot down in flames.
-Willow: opted for Oz over him.
-Cordelia: Nasty break-up led to constant snarking.
-Faith: Tried to murder him in the same bed they used. (still hasn't been reconciled).
-Anya: Preferred Spike at first. Later accepted Xander back. Deceased.
-Renee: killed in battle.

Willow... opted for Oz *over* Xander when, exactly? It never actually came up in that context at all. They both wanted the fluking to stop in Season 3, there was no offer to be with her for her to refuse.

Cordelia... he wasn't still trying to get her back pretty much after "The Wish", so I'm not sure when he made advances that failed. If anything, he actually did take the lead in spending time with her right after "What's My Line", and trying to be civil with her ("nice outfit").

Anya... what? Preferred Spike to Xander when?

Hence it's very unlikely that Buffy will ever see Xander as anything more then that guy who is kind of a brother figure but not really family. And not someone who is that important in her life.

Again, what?

"I had you to bring me back." Buffy, "Inca Mummy Girl"

"I know. That's why I need you to do this. Xander, I need someone that I can count on no matter what happens.

"You will be. You're my strength, Xander. You're the reason I made it this far. I trust you with my life. That's why I need you to do this for me." Buffy, "End of Days"

"I’m not leaving -- *I can’t leave Xander alone*!" Buffy, "Wolves at the Gate"

Y'know, maybe they'll become romantically involved someday, maybe not, but to say that Buffy sees Xander as "not someone who is that important in her life" is just... I mean, watch the show.

stormwreath

23-08-08, 12:40 AM

(Buffy's view of Xander): kind of a brother figure but not really family.Quoted without further comment, which would be superfluous...

If history hasn't recorded her army at all, if her "better world" has fallen into nearly Whitehat-less dystopian linguistic incoherency, then there is no disguising what the simple meaning is -- they lost. Lost so quickly and thoroughly that they didn't make a contribution worth noting at all.Excellent way of putting it. (Though I also loved Buffy's "spoiler alert!" comment...)

I bet if you know the word "plastic" off that sentence, you might have a good working theory on the Ken-doll nickname.Well, Xander stole her Barbie, but at least now she has a Ken to replace it.

Charles

27-08-08, 03:21 AM

They talk around it, but it's often the case that "talking around it" is usually a subconscious "talking towards it". It's not my first choice 'ship for Xander, but it's definitely top 3 or 4, and I think that Joss is basically pushing gently toward making us accept that the time of them seeing each other as brother/sister is well behind them. It's not even innuendo laden scenes like these centaur ones, but also "the frilly" in 8.10 and him protesting to Buffy on her behalf in 8.11 that she's okay drinking beer.

And it's yet another way to torture the fans who would prefer Xander end up with either Buffy or Willow since those are the two longest running ships he's involved in. And much like Buffy's ongoing relationship with her girlfriend with Satsu, it will blow up spectacularly in Joss's face as the fans blast him for it.

I think the preposterous thing she mentioned is something essentially light -- if it was very serious, like Willow or magic, she wouldn't have breezed past it. Whatever it was was so off-the-wall and harmless to her she trivialized it pretty quickly. I'm assuming that means it's either 'shippy (like that she'll be with Oz, Faith, or Xander, or perhaps Xander/Dawn), or that it's the Battle of Starbucks thing. But whatever it is sounded nutty enough not to believe and harmless enough not to worry about.

I think it's highly like it was Xander/Dawn as there isn't any other reason to include that line of dialouge. Especially in the same issue where Joss is again trying to push his audience's buttons.

Willow... opted for Oz *over* Xander when, exactly? It never actually came up in that context at all. They both wanted the fluking to stop in Season 3, there was no offer to be with her for her to refuse.

That's not how it came across. Willow was really happy and glad that Xander saw her as a woman. And if Oz and Cordelia hadn't happened along, there's a fairly good chance, that said fluking would have taken the next step. Post couples break up, she makes it abundantly clear she prefers Oz over Xander. Opting to not even speak to him or be around him after Oz departs for good in S4.

It's the full on role reversal of the first two years where she pines for him constantly. Only to have her heart broken in Mid S2. Then at the end of S3, Xander confesses he loves her and she cries out for Oz. There after Xander and her's relationship is irrevocably broken and Xander begins his journey of moving away and seperating from her as Buffy slides into the new role of Willow's best friend.

Cordelia... he wasn't still trying to get her back pretty much after "The Wish", so I'm not sure when he made advances that failed. If anything, he actually did take the lead in spending time with her right after "What's My Line", and trying to be civil with her ("nice outfit").

And before that, when their relationship was new, she was the one that took charge and initiated the make out sessions. After they broke up, things went back to the way they were but nastier.

Anya... what? Preferred Spike to Xander when?

S7. She tries to sleep with him again and gets turned down. She spends more time around Spike then Xander until the former takes up again with Buffy and she accepts Xander's advances.

Again, what?

Y'know, maybe they'll become romantically involved someday, maybe not, but to say that Buffy sees Xander as "not someone who is that important in her life" is just... I mean, watch the show.

I have watched the show. The question I have is have you?

Buffy's behavior regarding the people in her life has demostrated she has a consistent pecking order of who's important in her life. And it goes like this:

-Family, initially Joyce, later on Dawn.
-Whoever she's in a relationship with at the moment. Angel and Spike notably almost reach the same level as her family. Riley does not.
-Willow, her best friend, her closest friend and somone she trusts and sacrifices a lot for.
-Giles and Xander. And in the case of the former, his drop from being above Willow or on the same level as her has to do with his betrayal back in Lies The Writers Told the Audience.

Xander's just not that important in Buffy's life. Her actions SHOW this, when she steps OVER his bleeding and tortured body in S7 to Wood's disgust. She spends far more one on one time with Willow and actually has had private conversations between the two of them, something Xander hasn't had since S8 began.

Now hopefully Xander will be important in how this story arc plays out after he rips Twilight's lungs out or otherwise kills him in gruesome fashion and takes his place as the true final villian for this season.

But as it relates to Buffy at present, Xander's not important. James Marsters even made the comment back when the show as on the air, that a character's importance directly related to whether or not you were kissing Buffy or trying to kill her. He got lucky and did both. Xander as yet, hasn't done either. Hopefully that will change but I'm not holding my breath.

Thomas

27-08-08, 03:37 AM

And it's yet another way to torture the fans who would prefer Xander end up with either Buffy or Willow since those are the two longest running ships he's involved in. And much like Buffy's ongoing relationship with her girlfriend with Satsu, it will blow up spectacularly in Joss's face as the fans blast him for it.Ongoing relationship between Buffy/Satsu? You act like they had some long and epic relationship. They had sex twice over four issues.
S7. She tries to sleep with him again and gets turned down. She spends more time around Spike then Xander until the former takes up again with Buffy and she accepts Xander's advances.Um, what? :xd Anya did not want to sleep with Spike again. I do, however, remember her pretending to when she was caught going through his stuff...

Matt

27-08-08, 09:43 AM

S7. She tries to sleep with him again and gets turned down. She spends more time around Spike then Xander until the former takes up again with Buffy and she accepts Xander's advances.

If you're talking about that time in Sleeper then Anya didn't want to sleep with him, she was just making an excuse as to why she would be in his room that wasn't her snooping for proof that he was off killing people again and if you're talking about the conversation at the beginning of Get It Done then that was just Anya being Anya and I don't think she ever expressed wanting to revisit Spike-territory again, especially considering how Xander was afterward.

vampmogs

27-08-08, 10:08 AM

Willow and Kennedy is coming to be a very interesting relationship indeed. "Ken Doll" just makes me think she has no "parts" though. Under her trousers, there's just smooth plastic.

It's a hideous nickname :lol: Why must Willow talk to all her partners in this way? It's why I liked Willow/Oz, it's the only relationship when she wasn't a complete cheese!

Willow and Kennedy, not the most exciting part of the preview. And Ken-doll sounds like one of Lorne's action figures. But I'm still here in a corner, praying for one working relation in the 'verse. (I already had to say goodbye to Renee/Xander and my dear Gwonner in the last months ... )

Agree with everything you say here. I would be fine with Willow/Kennedy breaking up in all honesty, I still don't find them very interesting and Kendoll nearly made me vomit, *but* they're our best shot of getting a happy relationship at the moment so I'm kinda hoping they stick it out.

But in saying that....

I hope somewhere along the way after that little snippet of Willow and Kennedy its expanded upon what happened when Willow was with Saga Vasuki, because to me what Willow said seems to indicate she did do something but it was for the ''good'' of others. But I don't know if I was Kennedy I'd see my girlfriend getting naked as for the ''good''

I had a feeling Willow was gearing up to ask Kennedy to do something, something possibly related to Saga Vasuki. When Kennedy was dead and Willow was in her mystical walkabout I kind of got the impression Kennedy was used as conduit or something like that, as in, she had to die so Willow could get more power. I think it was most likely a deal struck with Vasuki. That's my theory. What I'm theorizing again is, after their talk in the preview, it sounds as if Willow's gearing up to ask Kennedy to "die" again. Now Kennedy doesn't know about last time, it appears she has no clue about Vasuki. I think Willow's whole "do you trust me" and "you know I'm doing this for the greater good" spiel is basically to try and warm Kennedy up to the idea she's going to use her girlfriend as a conduit again, and get help off Vasuki to bring Buffy back.

Which could result in a break up if Kennedy learns the truth, kinda like how she was freaked out when Willow used her power in 'Get It Done.'

If Xander's gonna wind up with Buffy, I don't wanna see him horsing around with Dawn first. If Xander/Dawn is the direction the book is going to take then so be it, but I don't want Xander/Buffy after that. Feels too gross for me.

I don't find it gross but I don't think it'd be necessary. At that point I think enough would be enough.

Also, there's one pretty big thing preventing anything from happening between Xander and Dawn at the moment. And that pretty big thing is Dawn's lower body. The writers are soooo not gonna go there. At this stage the only thing that can happen between Xander and Dawn are maybe some awkward kisses and even that's kinda pushing what's acceptable.

Agreed! As long as Dawn's a centaur they'll be very minimal horsing around (C'mon everyone else has used that pun, I want a turn!) It'd be downright bizarre if there was anything else to it than that.

KingofCretins

04-09-08, 05:43 PM

Okay, read the issue -- first post in spoilers just for safety.

Not the best Season 8 issue so far, but it still advances the plot considerably.

I think Buffy and Fray's partnership is showing us some really difficult things about Buffy this season. For a while now, most of us have been really happy that Buffy has found her sense of humor again and it's been swell. It's felt like she's no longer the rather bitter and cold Buffy she often was in Seasons 6 and 7. And that's true, but only in a sense. In fact, it's true only in the worst sense. Buffy has lost the mission, and lost it badly. For all her good cheer and good humor that she's managed... she can no longer be bothered to jump in and slay some vampires to protect people. She was ready to accept watching vampires kill some people so that the vampires in question would be alive to follow back to their headquarters. Melaka, for her part, was rightfully disgusted by this and dove in... which only exposed her to Willow and whatever she had to say.

I do find it interesting to see Buffy and Erin together, commiserating about being big sisters, and Buffy say she thought about becoming a cop. Either that's a straight retcon of "What's My Line", or we're learning something new about Buffy -- at the time, she was openly offended at the idea law enforcement was a good career for her. Now, though, it seems like a good idea for a non-Slayer happy ending for her if Joss ever needs to come up with one.

Melaka is a joy, IMO. I still think she's going to be killed in 8.19, but I'm glad she's here to give Buffy a kick in the ass. I don't know what Willow must have shown her to make her turn on Buffy, but for the first time I'm starting to think it must have been legit if Fray thinks it's bad. Either Buffy really is dangerous and Fray and FDW are on the right side, or Willow lied to Fray. Either is possible right now.

I liked the Gunther scene, nice to see two good bad guy types have a nice staredown. Didn't seem to advance the story, but it was cool.

The forest scene with Xander and Dawn was pretty solid -- definitely improved by having the two of them completely indifferent to the Fire Ent guys, the obligatory Gilmore Girls reference by Xander, and the Fire Ent guy being all confused that something is scarier than they are. The chemistry and tension between Xander and Dawn is pretty stable, and teetering on 'shippy.

Willow... I have basically lost all respect for. Again with the serpent lady sex, and dialogue that suggests that she A) is enjoying it, and B) is somehow loyal to Vasuki, willingly. It strikes me as being little more than an affair that happens to be magically useful. I think Tara would be ashamed of what Willow has let herself turn into, and not just future Willow. I liked the touch that future Willow is essentially powerless -- just used all her power to stay alive for this, one assumes. So maybe 8.19 will have FDW dying, too.

Interesting trivia -- Willow telling Fray that the most important men in both of their lives (meaning Buffy's and Fray's) are both vampires. Seems like Joss is A) declaring for the 50% of the audience that prefers the vampire 'ships, and B) implying he is going to get off that fence eventually. Oh well.

RuFio

04-09-08, 06:22 PM

I think Dark Willow may have told Fray the truth about what buffy did with the scythe and slayer line, but twisted it to show buffy in a bad light. I don't know though, b/c fray already knows what buffy did and how she is "responsible" for what happened to the slayer line, so what could Willow have said/shown to Fray to make her turn on Buffy like this??

Saga Vasuki freaks me out. What the hell is Willow doing with her?? Learning...magic?? Oh right, that's the stuff she studied with Tara...

I would've liked to see more Dawn + Xander. I think the tree people might help them with twilight, warren, amy etc.

Buffy's line "Oh futuristic snap!" was cute + made me smile.:roll:

dinamo

04-09-08, 06:38 PM

I did find everything to do with Willow Ken-doll and Saga Vasuki to be odd odd odd. It now appears Willow is willing going to Vasuki before i wanted to think it was something else now I'm not so sure at all. I do hope at some point Kennedy gets to pucn her in the face and say ''I'm not your Ken-doll anymore'' The more I read of this Season the more I begin to think Willow descends willingly into this character we're now seeing in the future. I hope Fray doesn't die, I don't want her to die in a Buffy comic. If we have to see her die I want it to be in her own print not someone elses.

Was Willow almost powerless in the future considering how the world there is, post magic? Also what exactly is she now and how the hell did she become it, I'm interested to find that out.

holypotatoes

05-09-08, 04:59 AM

"you drive like a spaz!" :roll::lol: Fantastic stuff right there. One of the greatest Buffy lines was repeated yet again.

So I thought I was reading the last episodes transcript when I started reading this one. :s It was identical and I couldn't figure it out until they finally got to the cheesey tree people then I knew it was something new. :lol: All I have to say is, what is up with stupid Mel?! Just shooting Buffy in the back like that. I am having none of it! :mad: Bitca is what she is. I still remain confused on when this Saga vasuki chick came in. For some reason I can't remember when she even appeared the first time and here she is again. Am I the only one that finds it odd that Willow can only contact her by teh sex? http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff190/mle81082/Smilies/Eyebrowraise.gif It's like Willow what the hell are you thinking?! I might not like Kennedy (or Ken doll <---- :down: :rolleyes: ) but that's just horrible what Willows been doing to her. All in all, it wasn't that exciting of a story but Buffy being all awesome will bounce right back from the electric shock. I'm sure of it. :err:

BTW, thanks for the quick transcripts KoC. :hug:

vampmogs

05-09-08, 09:56 AM

My thoughts,

I’ve just the read the issue and gotta say, pretty solid all round. Not as good as some of our other “Third Acts” but nevertheless, pretty tight.

What’s happening with Buffy is very interesting. She’s not the cold, hardened person of season six and seven, she’s just not. We’ve seen her laughing, joking, crying, she isn’t just a shell of Buffy, she is Buffy, which is what makes some of her actions all the more worrisome. From her chilling simple acceptance that she was in a war with the human race at the end of ‘The Long Way Home’ it’s clear Buffy’s changed whilst heading up the organisation. I think her “slayer’s only attitude” is at the forefront of this, she only cared about Gigi’s actions when she learnt she killed *other slayers* and now we see she’s willing to let innocent individuals die so she can follow the vampires. Fray’s right, and through that character Joss has made it abundantly obvious if one hasn’t already got it, that he’s not condoning these changes in Buffy’s character but intentionally writing her as corrupted.

She seems fine and dandy, even Fray’s sis says so. She’s comforting Fray over Harth in one issue, she’s not just into attacking mode with Fray but wanting to sort it out, but then something slips out and we see that she’s changed a little… It’s been that way throughout the season so far, Buffy’s vibrant and friendly, then something happens which makes you stop and think, “yikes.”

Really, I think he’s writing her as likeable to balance out the morally questionable things she’s doing, you need a balance so you can still like the character through her dark times.

I liked Willow in this issue, both present and future Willow. What she’s been up to is very interesting and deed. And whilst my guess earlier that Kennedy would have to mystically die again so Willow could contact Vasuki was wrong, it’s clear Willow has to use Kennedy to reach Vaskui and that Kennedy clearly isn’t aware of it. Bad Willow. Also confirms that it was Vasuki who told Willow to head to Manhattan and that Willow felt as if she had been lied to, yet, nevertheless thanks the demon lady anyway. Willow’s been up to something bad and I’m guessing her involvement with Vasuki leads her to what she’s become in the future which is why Vasuki doesn’t want her to look into the future and see herself.

In regards to future Willow, my best bet is that she shows Fray that it was Buffy who ends the slayer line. That’s my prediction and something Fray would want to stop by taking Buffy out. In my opinion it will be revealed that Buffy is responsible.

Loved the Harth/Gunther stare down, it thought it was very cool, I’m a real fan of these two characters.

The Xander and Dawn stuff was great, nice to see them making fun of the demons and all their swagger. It’s very Scooby to do that, very Sunnydale too.

And I *loved* “Summers, you drive like a spaz!” such a brilliant call back.

All in all, this issue left me wanting more. I want to see what Willow showed Fray, what Fray’s going to do to Buffy, if Kennedy learns of Willow’s deceit, Buffy finding out Willow is the madwoman and how Xander and Dawn deal with what’s happened to the slayer’s castle.

Wolfie Gilmore

05-09-08, 10:28 AM

I haven't read this issue yet, but something occurred to me re Buffy's coldness in the face of people being killed by vampires. As an avid reader of 2000AD as a kid, the idea of "future shock" is something I've always been interested in... and I wonder if Buffy is suffering from that a little? IE she's not able to really take the deaths of these people as "real" somehow, it's harder for her to feel the people in the future are real, except for the ones she's directly interacting with. But, even if she is, then that's something she should look into getting over, pronto.

vampmogs

05-09-08, 10:37 AM

In regards to Buffy's decision;

It's not as black and white as it seems in my opinion. I've sat back and thought about this more I think you have to extreme opposing ideas. Fray's comment about slayers not making with the big picture, is naive. Buffy's had to do that, a number of times, throughout the series. But I do believe Buffy was wrong in this instance. I mean she sat there, and watched it happen and the whole time she wasn't conflicted about saving the people, but she was thinking of plans to follow the vampires? That's kinda scary.

I liked your theory about Buffy being in shock though, and nothing seeming real. I could get on board with that because the world she's in is so different to her own it would be hard to view it through human eyes.

I think Buffy’s grew detached from the real world, I really do. I think that’s why it was so easy for her to accept the idea she’s against the human race. She sits up in her castle with all her slayers and her battles against evil and somewhere along the way she’s forgot about the small things.

When I first read this issue I thought it was great, not the best, but still solid and well written. The more I look back on it and reflect on the things I've seen, the more I begin to worry about the characters this season and the more I get a real sense of doom around this specific arc. It's as if only now I'm catching up on all the things Joss laid out in this arc, there's a real sombre mood in 'Time of Your Life' and it's rather unnerving. I'm not excited to see Buffy confront Dark Willow, I'm anxious about it. It's one of those things you don't want to see but you can't help but look, I just think it's all going to be very painful and sad. :( I think Joss is setting up something dire.

dinamo

05-09-08, 12:57 PM

After reading this issue and the way Kennedy is involved unknowingly with this entire Willow Saga Vasuki stuff maybe its not all about Willow for our powerful snake lady. What if its about Kennedy, why does she have to be involved in this. If it had been back in the day and Tara I'd have understood it was abotu more magic involved in the set up, but Kennedy isn't that way inclined. What if she wants Willow snared to her, and Kennedy to do her bidding for Willow's sake or something. I can't understand why Kennedy is needed in all of this, maybe it was Willow's choice and so on, but it seems weird to need Kennedy. Surely she wouldn't have just put Kennedy in danger like she is doing easily initially, maybe she was told she had to use Kennedy?

Sosa lola

05-09-08, 05:50 PM

Do we need to keep it in Spoiler tags? The thread is to discuss #18, if people don't wanna be spoiled they shouldn't enter.

I just finished reading the Buffy one, it was really interesting. Buffy had really changed since Sunnydale, she became more like Giles, seeing the big picture. Fray is more like Sunnydale!Buffy. I really loved the Buffy-Fray stuff, they'd make interesting meta.

The Willow stuff are also interesting. Right now I feel so bad for poor Kennedy.

Weredog

05-09-08, 10:47 PM

Charles

05-09-08, 11:15 PM

And so having gotten my eyeballs on the latest rehash of S6, I mean latest issue of Season eight...

It's what I expected thus far:

-Buffy begins the season as kind of happy, kind of lonely. Gets involved becaues she's lonely and also horney with someone that is a questionable partner at best. Gets semi-depresssed.

And now she's showing signs of turning into "I'm the Slayer" Buffy, which nobody liked and was the reason why the fans and SMG ultimately ditched the show. On the bright side I can safely say that this is basically what Joss views on Feminism: Don't be a strong woman. Be a woman trying to be a strong man.

-Oh and Naked Willow sex. That'd be interesting if it wasn't so distasteful. Oh and predictable in the context of Willow's abusing magick and her partner AGAIN. Great character growth there. Hang on a second I need to something interesting in order to stay awake through the issue.

-Dawn and Xander. The 'new' part of the story, in that it features characters we haven't seen featured until now. And it's doing what I thought it would do. Dawn's transformation from Giant to Centaur has similarly transformed her personality from mopey to aggressive, fairly confident woman. Yeah, I think it's now much of a LOCK that the 'hookup' promised to Xander will be with her. I'm kind of happy for two reasons on that frone. One, it'll be yet another step as Xander continues to re-enact Willow's plot line S6. So when he does his version of dark and veiny in gruesomely offing Twilight in a fashion that clearly indicates he's the villian now, it won't be a shock to anyone.

The other reason is that unless Script Doctor has the SS invoke yet another Deus Axe Machina, this relationship combined with YawninducingDarkWillow information, means that B/X or X/W as a romantic relationships are officially DOA. Which is another reason to look forward to the movie in a couple years when SMG has final scrip approval.

-Oh and then there's this whole bunch of stuff involving the Script Doctor's attempt to rip off Blade Runner but I honestly don't care about that. Just wad up that entire storyverse and toss it in the dumpster for all I care.

-Predictions on what happens when Buffy gets back from the future. Well the upcoming flashback issue will be her decompessing then I would bet money (a small amount because I need to put gas in my car) that we'll see Satsu again and the revelation of her and Buffy's relationship continuing set against the backdrop of the REALLY big reveal. Because despite what people said earlier, I sincerley doubt the SD has learned anything about how to actually write or handle relationships.

Enisy

06-09-08, 12:10 AM

Read it, dug it. I think I'm in the minority that likes this arc better than Wolves at the Gate. That must be partly because the new setting has liberated me from the overexposure to the Baby Slayers, and returned the focus to characters I actually care about (Fray and co. included -- Fray shows more personality in one issue than Satsu and Renee have in the whole of their pagetime, as I see it). Love the Dark Willow-Harth team-up (loved them as villains on their own, too, so this gave me a happy, despite my anticipation for Drusilla), love the prospect of Xander/Dawn, love the dark turns in Willow's and Buffy's storylines. Joss seems to be borrowing many ideas from Season 6, but with a Season 2-3 tone, which makes for an interesting amalgamation.

To be fair, I'm not liking Buffy at the moment -- how did she slip so far from the girl who worked for her much-needed money in Season 6 (refusing Spike's "blood money" and refraining from charging the people she saved), and who tormented herself endlessly over one girl's death? Buuuuut I'm confident her misguided behaviour is going somewhere, so I'll wait and see where that is.

Speaking of Buffy, I'm very happy that we finally got textual confirmation that Spike and Angel are the most important men in her life. 'Course, most of us already knew that from Joss's interviews on the subject, but it's still nice to see it on paper.

So I guess Willow is the "closest, most unexpected betrayal"? Maybe?

I think I'm getting back into Season 8 again. Kudos.

ETA: Oh, but I hated the tree-men. "Hated" in the foam-at-the-mouth, pull-hair-off, close-the-window-and-take-deep-breaths way. Argh.

KingofCretins

06-09-08, 12:21 AM

Sola lola, you're not the only one who thinks that Buffy has turned into the Giles. Buffy is definitely in it for the big picture. It's kinda funny how Buffy was searching through books while Fray was investigating. Back in the day, she would've gotten The Scoobies to search the work, while she does it. I guess Buffy is falling in the inevitable trap that is "we become our parents" ;)

There's no real indication Buffy was researching anything related to Harth or the madwoman or anything related to what Fray was looking for -- she was looking up her future history, essentially, and found it lacking. It was either pure self-indulgence, or strategically looking for information about her current (present) crisis with Twilight.

Anyhow, I very much preferred this issue over the last one; Buffy and Fray's team-up felt completely organic. I'm glad they don't see each other eye-to-eye, yet they each work past their differences. Dark Willow was also much improved from #17. Her dialogue suited her more. I don't know if I should be terrified or not, but Dark Willow loosing her magic is very interesting!

FDW being essentially powerless actually made a lot of sense, since it opens the inference that it *has* taken all her power just to stay alive long enough to carry out this plan.

I enjoy Melaka and Buffy teaming up, and hope that Buffy actually learns something important about being the Slayer that she seems to have forgotten. "The statistic's name is Stacey Bluth". I loved Erin and Buffy bonding, and I continue to love Mel and Erin's working together -- a lot of mutual trust that suggests they really have gotten closer since the beginning of "Fray". Too bad I still think one or both of them are toast in 8.19.

Favourite line: "Buffy. Sorry. With a B. Don't want future history calling me "Puffy." It's just... you had a question?" -- Buffy
Favourite panel: Call me a pervert but I thought Willow's climax ("So close") was wonderfully drawn. All proportions are great, the inking is eerily beautiful. Also, looks remarkably like Willow from the TV series.

I think my favorite line, or scene, was probably what we saw of Xander and Dawn after the preview panels, where the story completely upends the drama and tension of the tree guys by having Xander and Dawn completely unimpressed.

Willow orgasming is a sexy panel, as is the one immediately following it. Still doesn't change just how brutally awful her behavior is. I'd love to have seen the conversation where she explains to Kennedy *why* they have to "frak" for her to make contact, and what she'll be experiencing when she gets there.

And so having gotten my eyeballs on the latest rehash of S6, I mean latest issue of Season eight...

Nonsense.

And now she's showing signs of turning into "I'm the Slayer" Buffy, which nobody liked and was the reason why the fans and SMG ultimately ditched the show. On the bright side I can safely say that this is basically what Joss views on Feminism: Don't be a strong woman. Be a woman trying to be a strong man.

I think this is a false criticism. There's nothing more un-feminist, really, than analyzing Buffy's behavior vis a vis whether you think she's being more "woman"ish or more "man"ish. The fact is she's being cold and distant and somewhat callous. It's misandry to say that is typical of men and chauvinistic to think it alien of women. Is Sarah Connor a strong woman or a "strong man"?

-Dawn and Xander. The 'new' part of the story, in that it features characters we haven't seen featured until now. And it's doing what I thought it would do. Dawn's transformation from Giant to Centaur has similarly transformed her personality from mopey to aggressive, fairly confident woman. Yeah, I think it's now much of a LOCK that the 'hookup' promised to Xander will be with her. I'm kind of happy for two reasons on that frone. One, it'll be yet another step as Xander continues to re-enact Willow's plot line S6. So when he does his version of dark and veiny in gruesomely offing Twilight in a fashion that clearly indicates he's the villian now, it won't be a shock to anyone.

Dawn's growth has been pretty consistent over all four seasons she's been in, really, and I like who she is right now. We've seen nothing of Dawn in the last several issues but a strong and committed leader, a brave woman dealing with some seriously annoying magical BS. And I do expect and even hope for a Xander/Dawn hook-up at this point*.

But wtf with Xander re-enacting Willow's season 6 plotline? That makes absolutely no sense that I can distinguish. Where is his obsessive behavior? Where is his pushing away from friends? Where is him acting irrationally? I mean... seriously, name me even *one* meaningful similarity? There was some speculation that he might follow Wesley's Season 3 and Season 4 arc from "Angel", but thus far, there's been no darkening. The analysis you've given couldn't be less reflective of Season 8's story at this point.

The other reason is that unless Script Doctor has the SS invoke yet another Deus Axe Machina, this relationship combined with YawninducingDarkWillow information, means that B/X or X/W as a romantic relationships are officially DOA. Which is another reason to look forward to the movie in a couple years when SMG has final scrip approval.

-Oh and then there's this whole bunch of stuff involving the Script Doctor's attempt to rip off Blade Runner but I honestly don't care about that. Just wad up that entire storyverse and toss it in the dumpster for all I care.

-Predictions on what happens when Buffy gets back from the future. Well the upcoming flashback issue will be her decompessing then I would bet money (a small amount because I need to put gas in my car) that we'll see Satsu again and the revelation of her and Buffy's relationship continuing set against the backdrop of the REALLY big reveal. Because despite what people said earlier, I sincerley doubt the SD has learned anything about how to actually write or handle relationships.

Well, if Xander/Dawn is on, Buffy/Xander is almost certainly off, which is really unfortunate. It's also why I can't fully commit to a Xander/Dawn hook-up because I really, really prefer Buffy/Xander. It's really the ideal theme and character driven romance Joss could run with. Xander/Willow was pretty much always done, and hasn't been kept afloat by the writers since they're hook-up in Season 3.

I find it hysterical that you're treating "Fray" like it's the very first ever derivative work of "Blade Runner". Why you're spending money on a story and a writer for which you have nothing but open contempt makes no sense to me.

Speaking of Buffy, I'm very happy that we finally got textual confirmation that Spike and Angel are the most important men in her life. 'Course, most of us already knew that from Joss's interviews on the subject, but it's still nice to see it on paper.

Yeah, that line really sucked horribly :) Since they have both been out of her life for so long to make the line itself pretty dubious, it's as if it's there to foreshadow one of those narrative dead horses getting ready for another pounding. But, it may also mean that Joss is getting off the fence (again, blech), since the structure of the comparison that Willow was making suggests that she was only talking about *one* vampire. One for Melaka, one for Buffy.

Enisy

06-09-08, 12:42 AM

Been a while since you last criticised something I said, I was starting to miss it. ;)

Like I said on the DH forum, if she was only referring to one vampire, wouldn't the line look something like this? --> "The most important man in both of your lives is a vampire."

I think it was a reference to both Spike and Angel, especially since Joss made the same statement, using almost the exact same phrasing, in a 2003 interview.

And I know you thought/hoped that Spike/Buffy and Angel/Buffy were over and done with in the narrative, but most people were expecting the horse-pounding. Joss has been doing it for years; no reason to stop now.

KingofCretins

06-09-08, 01:01 AM

Because she was referring, collectively, to two men. There's no rule of grammar to pluralize what she was talking about in Buffy's life.

Oh, I didn't think Joss was incapable of retreading the same boring-ass ground, I just didn't think he'd actually do it :) It would be great if it was just a throwaway line, but it's probably not. Much like the conspicuous Riley references made me think he's Twilight, conspicuous vampire references about relationships make me think Joss is still going to be inflicting them going forward. Maybe one of them is "Twilight".

Very aggravating thought -- between that and the events of "Angel: After the Fall" Issue #12, it's like everything new is old again, and we're just going to reset everything back to safe and familiar ground in terms of people's relationships as soon as possible. Sadly, Buffy with Angel or Spike long term is about the least feminist-iconish thing that Joss could really do with her, much less so than even just leaving her single.

Enisy

06-09-08, 01:31 AM

Buffy with Angel or Spike long-term would preclude getting off the fence, which I just don't see happening, so you probably don't have to worry.

There's no rule of grammar to pluralize what she was talking about in Buffy's life.

Yyyyyeah, so she may well have been referring to both of the vampires -- you can't rule that out. Furthermore, that contingency has backup in the form of that interview...

Joss Whedon: I had a lot of structural juggling to do to figure out how to make sense of the two most important men in Buffy's life showing up at once.

Re: attempts to retain the status quo, I agree, but that's also nothing new. Joss has been flogging Angel/Buffy from Season 3 of Buffy to Season 5 of Angel, to name the most obvious example, while any change in their interpersonal dynamic didn't last more than a day (I Will Remember You). In some respects that bothers me... and, admittedly, in some respects it doesn't, if only because I support two of the very few 'ships that actually benefit from this tendency of Joss's (Spike/Buffy and Wesley/Illyria). But I can see why people who don't much fancy the mainstream 'ships, and who are looking forward to changes in that department, would be disappointed by this.

stormwreath

06-09-08, 01:32 AM

Well, unlike some of the people here, I really enjoyed 8.18 - I thought it was one of the strongest issues of the season. The bit with Buffy and the helpless victims was especially powerful because it was the final, conclusive revelation that yes, her moral values are getting screwed up.

18-year old Buffy would have been just as appalled as Melaka was by her future self's attitude. The worst of it was, Buffy wasn't even making a ruhless but correct decision. What actually happened - Mel saved the victims, one of the vampires escaped in the van and allowed Buffy to follow it back to its base - was the best of both worlds. And if Buffy hadn't allowed her love of the "big picture" to blind her to the reality of what being a Slayer really means, she'd probably have come up with that plan herself instead of allowing it to happen by accident.

She's definitely turning into a Watcher. And what makes it interesting is, it's not a black and white picture. Making the ruthless but correct decision often is for the greater good, as long as you are actually correct...

As for Willow, interestingly I interpreted her scene in completely the opposite way to how KoC did, with the result that my respect for her increased significantly this issue. :)

The thing is, we see Kennedy suggest to Willow that she get in touch with her mystical contact, and she asks Willow what they have to do. And Willow is obviously preparing her for some sort of revelation that she's embarrassed about.

Next thing we know, Willow is almost at the point of orgasm and arrives in Saga Vasuki's dimension. Maybe the confusion is that some people are assuming Willow is having sex with Saga Vasuki in that first panel? Because she clearly isn't. She starts to utter an orgasmic "aah" then changes it to "AAAHH!" when she sees SV is there, and then she covers up her chest all defensively, while SV says she wondered when Willow would be back. In other words, Willow needs to be in an orgasmic state to enter this dimension.

Which is nice continuity to 'Who Are You?' when the same thing applied...

And one minute twenty seconds later, Willow fades out of that dimension - not of her own will, but because something is happening to her body back in her own dimension (or has stopped happening to it, technically). And the next we see of her, she and Kennedy are post-coital in their bed and Kennedy has a huge grin on her face.

It seems obvious to me that Kennedy knew exactly what was going on. Willow has told her how she can reach SV's dimension, and Kennedy seems only too happy to lend a helping hand.

So why is Willow feeling awkward, guilty and embarrassed? Other than because she's Willow, and it's her default state? Seems to me it's because even though Kennedy is a willing participant in this, Willow still thinks she's using her. That Willow is, quite literally, thinking about another woman at the moment she climaxes. That reflects well on her, I think, not badly.

Of course, there's also the possibility that Willow and Saga Vasuki have had sex themselves in the past, and Willow is guilty about that. But I certainly didn't get that impression from their meeting here: Willow was rather cold and formal and focussed, but also doing her best to be polite and friendly.

Matt

06-09-08, 11:14 AM

I think I've realised why both this and Wolves At The Gate III seemed really short to me, it's because of how they're having to fit so much into one issue and the characters aren't getting as much focus as usual so it's seems less long because of the character amount.

Anyway, back to the issue at hand (or on the table as it's not in my hand.)

I loved the first scene with Buffy and Fray, it was nice to see Buffy convey an ounce of emotion because she seems to have hardened up since she last cried in A Beautiful Sunset. I also liked the reference to the fourth season of Doctor Who with the Library and the spoilers inside the books, however unintentional it may have been. I'm also curious as to what the hell that monkey thing is because it wasn't in the Fray series so interesting.

For a comic book that had Dawn on the front I thought she was going to have a huge part to play in the whole issue however I felt that she and Xander were cut short. Also, what the Hell are those tree things? I'm not loving them at all.

I absolutely loved Buffy driving, it was a nice flashback to Band Candy, especially with Fray saying "Summers you drive like a spaz!", although I'm finding it hard to believe that of all the words that transpired into the future English language Spaz is one of them. It was also interesting how Buffy made the decision to go hunting for the bigger picture stuff and leaving Fray to deal with the vamps, it kind of reflected times in the show when Buffy knew what she had to do even if innocent bystanders got in the way.

The whole Saga Vasuki thing is interesting, I mean, what the hell is she? Is she a God or something? Also Kennedy's readiness to trust Willow, however strange her request may have seemed.

Dark Willow as ominous as ever, what is she if not human or vampire? Also what is it that she shows Fray of Buffy? It must've been bad if Fray uses her sister to trick Buffy into trusting them just to ray gun her and for "saving the world." It should be very good seeing how everything is explained in the final part, I hope it's explained how and why Willow has lived so long.

Also, how weird was it seeing Buffy and Fray's sister (what is her name again?) in the same room, I think it would've been hard to tell them apart had they not been wearing the same clothes.

tangent

06-09-08, 05:19 PM

Well, just got my hands on this issue and overall i'm liking.

I Think I get why Buffy's the stay home type at the start. This world is foreign to her she knows nothing of the environs. The fact that Melaka is the one doing the footslogging research and she's hitting the books makes perfect sense. When it's time to go out and do someething that ivolves her beating stuff up though she's ready and raring.

The Willow stuff is very interesting. I's sorta guessed that Kennedy needed to somehow die for a little bit in order to get in touch with Saga Vasuki but now it looks like it just needs her to, erm, enjoy herself: a lot. One thing that occurs to me is that given what Willow and Kennedy are presumably doing at the time and where Vasuki appears from, could Kennedy be some kind of vessel for Saga Vasuki? Could that be the reason for the shamefacedness? Saying that Kennedy doesn't look all that put out afterwards so maybe not. I liked the way the tree people thing was handled as well. I was a bit fearful of that after the teasers but the way it's treated with humour, a touch of self depreciating irony and a humanising of the mythical creatures works for me and makes them authentically Buffy.

OPne thing I didn't quite get was the "Futuristic Snap" comment that Buffy makes after jumping out of the crashed car. I thought at first it might be her seeing Mel's sister and commenting on the already widely noticed physical similarities between the two of them, but that scene is clearly indoors whereas the comment is made outdoors. I can only think it's something about the car disappearing in the distance in the panel where she makes the comment but can't really think why it would need mentioning.

The other thing i'm not keen on is how Buffy brushes off the deats of a handful of people in order to chase the "bigger picture" it just seems unbuffy to me somehow. Surely a capture and question would be the way to go here. Although maybe she's thinking that if they can get to the bottom of hatevers happening it will save a hell of a lot more lives back in her own time including those that she knows and loves AND has a chance of making sure that Fray's world doesn't come to be. Seems a bit of a wishful leap though and still very unbuffy.

The fate of Buffy (alright but, how's she gonna get out of it, and what will it mean for her?) and of Gunther are the things i'm looking forward to finding out.

KingofCretins

06-09-08, 07:17 PM

Enisy, I just thought Joss would want to challenge himself with Buffy's romance -- and a pretty much one-off sapphic affair ain't that. I imagine that sometimes around Season 4 and 5, you were very much in favor of Joss challenging himself and the fans with Buffy's romances...

As for Willow, interestingly I interpreted her scene in completely the opposite way to how KoC did, with the result that my respect for her increased significantly this issue.

The thing is, we see Kennedy suggest to Willow that she get in touch with her mystical contact, and she asks Willow what they have to do. And Willow is obviously preparing her for some sort of revelation that she's embarrassed about.

Next thing we know, Willow is almost at the point of orgasm and arrives in Saga Vasuki's dimension. Maybe the confusion is that some people are assuming Willow is having sex with Saga Vasuki in that first panel? Because she clearly isn't. She starts to utter an orgasmic "aah" then changes it to "AAAHH!" when she sees SV is there, and then she covers up her chest all defensively, while SV says she wondered when Willow would be back. In other words, Willow needs to be in an orgasmic state to enter this dimension.

Which is nice continuity to 'Who Are You?' when the same thing applied...

And one minute twenty seconds later, Willow fades out of that dimension - not of her own will, but because something is happening to her body back in her own dimension (or has stopped happening to it, technically). And the next we see of her, she and Kennedy are post-coital in their bed and Kennedy has a huge grin on her face.

It seems obvious to me that Kennedy knew exactly what was going on. Willow has told her how she can reach SV's dimension, and Kennedy seems only too happy to lend a helping hand.

The fact that Kennedy is grinning and post-coital while Willow is ashamed is all but proof positive that Kennedy *didn't* know what was going on -- if she did, she'd have been more in tune to Willow's feelings right in front of her and not totally oblivious. If anything seemed obvious, it was that Kennedy couldn't know and still be that oblivious to Willow's reaction. Willow, being Willow, probably told her just enough to know that she can get all magically insightful if they have sex, but omitted the whole "I have to go see the naked snake lady to whom I am sexually submissive on another plane" or whatever.

Of course, there's also the possibility that Willow and Saga Vasuki have had sex themselves in the past, and Willow is guilty about that. But I certainly didn't get that impression from their meeting here: Willow was rather cold and formal and focussed, but also doing her best to be polite and friendly.

She was also submissive and, frankly, encouraging -- going out of her way to say she'd see Vasuki again soon.

OPne thing I didn't quite get was the "Futuristic Snap" comment that Buffy makes after jumping out of the crashed car. I thought at first it might be her seeing Mel's sister and commenting on the already widely noticed physical similarities between the two of them, but that scene is clearly indoors whereas the comment is made outdoors. I can only think it's something about the car disappearing in the distance in the panel where she makes the comment but can't really think why it would need mentioning.

The other thing i'm not keen on is how Buffy brushes off the deats of a handful of people in order to chase the "bigger picture" it just seems unbuffy to me somehow. Surely a capture and question would be the way to go here. Although maybe she's thinking that if they can get to the bottom of hatevers happening it will save a hell of a lot more lives back in her own time including those that she knows and loves AND has a chance of making sure that Fray's world doesn't come to be. Seems a bit of a wishful leap though and still very unbuffy.

I think Buffy was spotting the ambulance or whatever it was and where it had gone, and was pleased with herself. She mentioned to Erin that she'd found the headquarters.

Capture and question was definitely the way to go -- and if she'd gone that way, turns out Willow's right there and Buffy has her answers and Fray isn't shooting her in the back. I think Buffy in Season 8 has lost sight of the way to do things the same as Angel did in Season 5 of "Angel". She's had her squads and cell phones and view screens so long she thinks of the hands on fight as something she's detached from, something she strategizes about distantly, and not something she does herself.

She cannot win this way. If she can't see the *small* picture again and remember what being the Slayer always meant to her, and why she thought it was a good idea to share that power in the first place, Twilight will blow her out like a candle.

XavierZane

06-09-08, 08:22 PM

Harth and Gunther

Such an awesome scene. When was the last time we had two seriously badass villains stare each other down? The closest I can think of is Angel and the Mayor in season 3. Anyway, Gunther is totally going to destroy those swimming vampires trying to sneak up behind him. If Gunther's being taken out it won't be by lackeys.

Favorite Line: "I'd suggessst you leave before I kill you all."

Dawn and Xander

I have unadulterated love for this scene. Including the wacky tree fire guys. Dawn and Xander have such good chemistry right now, and are such a great team...and yet she's going to be half horse for awhile. And then she'll be something else. I think it'll be near the end of the series before she's back to a normal girl. For all the hinting, I'm not sure she's going to be the hookup that's been promised for Xander. In fact she, rather than Buffy, might be Xander's long term. Considering how well they're being written I can't say I hate that idea...ye Gods this season is spinning my shipping sensibilities all askew! I was barely a Bander at the beginning of this, then I converted in a big bad way, and now this.

Favorite Line: "Yeah. Do I look human to you, Tree-Boy?"

Fray and Dark Willow

Intriguing to say the least. And possibly psyche damaging. But before I get to that, important things:

1. I love that Dark Willow barely has enough magic for a light show, but does this mean that it was a third party that brought Buffy to the future? Did Willow just take advantage of it? Or is she fronting for someone else? It could be like everyone else is saying, that all her reserves are going into keeping herself alive and the time kerflooey going, but I think it warrants considering.
2. I, like everyone else, wonder just what the hell Dark Willow showed Mel to send her gallivanting and a-raygunning without hesitation. Did Buffy kill a puppy or something?
3. I really really want next issue to be Dark Willow expositing like mad. I really really really want her story.
4. "You have to understand Buffy. If you hate her she'll be harder to kill." But does Dark Willow really understand Buffy? Does present Willow? Present Willow has been MIA for six months or more, is questioning all Buffy's moves, and it seems like it's just going to get worse, based on what we're seeing here. Dark Willow is two centuries removed from actually being around a living, breathing Buffy. Memories can skew easily, especially when revenge is involved, and two centuries is two centuries no matter how you slice it. I ask because...
5. "The most important men in both your lives are 'lurks'" <---> This is the psyche damaging part which I mentioned earlier. My only hope is that this is supposed to illustrate that Dark Willow doesn’t understand Buffy nearly as well as she likes to think and this will be her downfall. Because, honestly, I think it’s been pretty clear this season that her vampire paramours aren’t all that important anymore. In the nearly two years this book has been running they’ve gotten a grand total of one and a half mentions. One fantasy that she was embarrassed about and explained away as ‘it’s been a slow year’ and one oblique mention in that ‘people who’re gone’ list.

I like Spike. I like Angel. I really like that they’re off doing their own thing in their own book. They need to be a part of Buffy's story like they need a good dose of sunlight. I like Buffy. I like Xander. I like that they’re living together, working together, hanging out pretty much only with each other. They’re practically married, for God’s sake! How can he not be the most important man in her life? I really hope this quote isn’t foreshadowing or meant to be taken at face value. I really worry that it is.

Favorite Line: "I suppose I am. Don't hold it against me, though. I'm fairly certain I've earned it."

Buffy and Erin

These two look so similar that I’m beginning to think it means something. Descendants anyone?

Favorite Line: “I submit! Submissively!”

Buffy and Fray

I don’t see Buffy’s actions as quite as dire as others do. To me it’s more a difference in point of view than a moral fall. Do you see the Fight or the Battle? Fray sees the Fight, much like a younger Buffy or Faith. Buffy sees the Battle. In the end, Fray saved one person out of five and got manipulated by Dark Willow. And Buffy discovered the HQ for all the vampires in Haddyn. Of course, I’m still wondering why people are so up in arms about Buffy robbing banks. As if she’s never stolen anything. Ha, I say, ha. Oh, and does anybody else think that “Hey, it’s my first time with Grand Theft Flying Auto” means that it’s not her first time with Grand Theft Auto in general? I think that. And I find it endearing for some reason.

Favorite Line: “Summers, you drive like a spaz!”

Willow and Kennedy and Saga Vasuki

My initial reading of this was pretty shallow. I was disappointed with Willow, felt sorry for Kennedy, and then I started making bad sex jokes. Seriously, I had to keep my mind occupied during a mind-numbing twelve hour shift cutting paper. My personal favorite was the “It’s a Wonderful Life” parody, although the one comparing Bill Clinton and Willow was good too. But I digress.

The more I went over their scenes though, the more they disturbed me. My view of Willow went from “Geez, you’re screwing around a nice girl like Kennedy” to “Geez…have I ever seen you this bad?” Because while she’s skinned a man alive and tried to destroy the world, she was out of her mind with grief then. Now she’s going into things with eyes wide open and she seems mostly fine with it all. First of all there’s the general fact that she’s been hiding Saga Vasuki from Kennedy and from others. Second of all, despite the fact that Saga is obviously on the grayer side of black Willow is showing no inclination of breaking with her. She also seems very dutiful and loyal to Saga, which is worrying. There's also the general skeeviness of using your girlfriend to get you with someone who you're obviously so intimate with. Finally, what on earth is with Kennedy in her last panel?

Ok, even assuming that Kennedy is fully aware of what just went on, that she had to give Willow an orgasm so that Willow can see her source (debatable) and assuming that it was a two way street (didn’t seem like it), how about a little curiosity? What did you find out?, who is your source?, how come you have to orgasm to see your source?, or even, Hey, what’s with the look of abject shame? But, no…just that worshipful smile. It looks like Kennedy is about two seconds away from washing Willow’s feet with her hair. It. Is. Creepy. Anybody remember Kennedy? Slightly prickly girl who always demanded she get her way and get any answers she wanted? What’s the what, here? I know I might be jumping to conclusions, but it really seems to me that Kennedy's mind has been wiped and that she just doesn't remember the preceding conversation.

Favorite Line: "Hey, baby, there's no need to curse like a nerd."

Whew, that was exhausting.

hayes62

06-09-08, 08:31 PM

Capture and question was definitely the way to go
Fray did that in the previous issue and the vamp wouldn't answer her question. Buffy did that in the previous arc and was led into a trap. Faith did it in S7 and ditto. Torture in the Buffyverse, as in real life, just doesn't seem to be a good source of reliable information.

I think Buffy in Season 8 has lost sight of the way to do things the same as Angel did in Season 5 of "Angel". She's had her squads and cell phones and view screens so long she thinks of the hands on fight as something she's detached from, something she strategizes about distantly, and not something she does herself.
She did plenty of hands on in Japan I don't think that's the problem. As for the Angel comparison I think she has quite the opposite problem. Angel didn't go in to W&H believing he was doing the right thing for the world, he joined to save Connor. He was the middle aged former Greenpeace activist getting a job with Shell oil to pay for the college fund. Buffy is the young Greenpeace activist who still believes she can make a difference but is getting too focused on the cause and protecting her own followers.

I thought it was indicative that she didn't describe Melaka as saving the victims but as going after the vamps in a Faith-like frenzy. She also had the perspective to note that Melaka's one hunting party at a time methods were delaying any confrontation with her brother.

KingofCretins

06-09-08, 08:43 PM

Slayer+

07-09-08, 01:17 AM

"Summers, you drive like a spaz!"

Anyone catch this is a season 3 quote?

:lol:

stormwreath

07-09-08, 01:37 AM

If anything seemed obvious, it was that Kennedy couldn't know and still be that oblivious to Willow's reaction. Willow, being Willow, probably told her just enough to know that she can get all magically insightful if they have sex, but omitted the whole "I have to go see the naked snake lady to whom I am sexually submissive on another plane" or whatever.But what about their previous conversation?

1) Kennedy asks if Willow can talk to her contact again.
2) Willow says yes she can, but to do it, she has to ask Kennedy's help.
3) She's worried how Kennedy will react to what they're going to do.

It seems completely obvious to me that Kennedy knows that the sex is so that Willow can speak to her contact. Admittedly, I don't think Kennedy knows who the contact is, and would certainly be upset if she saw an attractive topless snake woman coming on to her Willow like that - which is why Willow is feeling guilty.

So yes, Willow, as is her wont, is hiding things from Kennedy. But please take an honest look at what she isn't hiding from her. She pretty much admits, in the "Ken-doll" speech, that she's doing something that Kennedy wouldn't like. She stresses that she loves Kennedy, and she's only doing this for "the greater good". And she asks Kennedy to trust her.

And Kennedy's reaction? 'Duh'. Of course she trusts Willow. And frankly, I've seen nothing to make her regret that trust. Willow is always her own biggest critic; this is a girl who can feel guilty over eating her lunch an hour early.

She was also submissive and, frankly, encouraging -- going out of her way to say she'd see Vasuki again soon.You saw "submissive" and "encouraging"? What I saw was a Willow who started off very cold, angry and focussed, ignoring all SV's attempts at friendliness, and kept on pushing her for an answer until SV admitted that her source was "somebody she trusted". At which point Willow remembered her manners, apologised and said some nice things in order to get SV to agree to help her.

The last scene, where she's saying "Of course. Thank you." - looks to me more like SV has reminded her that she owes her a big favour for the training she gave her, and Willow needs to show more respect. It's a student-sensei relationship, not some weird sexually submissive thing.

And "I'll see you. Soon." seems less "encouraging" and more "Sorry for bullying you like that, I still want to be friends." For all that Willow treats SV as an equal here, accusing her of lying and everything. I think we need to remember that SV is clearly incredibly powerful... she trained Kumiko, after all, who was stronger than Willow in their magical duel. Not getting her angry is probably a wise move.

And if Willow's feeling guilty about things in the last panel, it's probable she's also worrying about Buffy and the cryptic warning "not to look" that SV gave her.

I think Buffy was spotting the ambulance or whatever it was and where it had gone, and was pleased with herself. She mentioned to Erin that she'd found the headquarters.I think it's very unclear, but there's actually supposed to be a significant time lapse between those two pages. Buffy sees the ambulance going into that huge building, and works out that it's "lurk central", as she tells Erin. But then she travels all the way back to Melaka's home, and as she walks in Erin pulls the gun on her.

Capture and question was definitely the way to go -- and if she'd gone that way, turns out Willow's right there It's clear Willow wanted to get Melaka alone, so it seems equally clear that if Buffy had gone with her, Willow wouldn't have been there to be found.

But one of them saving the victims but deliberately (rather than accidentally) letting one vampire escape in the van would have been a much better plan, both morally and practically.

vampmogs

07-09-08, 06:19 AM

I must admit, I didn't really get a sense that Kennedy was aware of what went down between Willow/Vasuki either. I find it hard to believe she'd even be up for that, and find it harder to believe she would and would then have such a big grin on her face afterwards. If it was a mutual understanding between both of them, I'd think both would be looking like Willow after the sex and not just one of them. It'd seem more like a chore than an intimate moment between two people whom love each other.

When Willow asks Kennedy if she knows she loves her ect, I thought that was Willow trying to reassure Kennedy so that if or when she does find out she doesn't feel betrayed. I thought it was more Willow doing damage control *before* the damage.

I was actually thinking about Willow's nakedness and what it symbolises in the relationship between her and Vasuki. Having no clothes on means Willow is laid bare, there's nothing she can hide from Savuki, she has to give this demon every inch of her. It's rather worrying. Throughout the conversation Willow's shielding her breasts but when she has to bow down and succumb to what Vasuki asks her of she lets them go, she gives herself fully to Vasuki. It’s really creepy to see Willow give herself fully to such a creature like that.

ciderdrinker

07-09-08, 08:51 AM

I tend to agree with Stormwreath about the Willow/Saga Vasuki situation, although the tone of their voices would determine it either way - I think that Willow was annoyed with SV at first, but quickly realises that she shouldn't mess with her and becomes more polite.

The thing that concerns me though is the panels before when Willow is trying to find a way of bringing Buffy back and Kennedy is all encouraging. It's so creepily reminiscent of Bargaining Part 1 and 2. Even the dialogue is similar;- "I can’t leave Buffy stranded in some horrible unknown future" sounds an awful lot like "Suffering eternal torment, just because she saved us, and I'm not gonna let her... I'm not gonna leave her there." Then Willow was keeping secrets from her friends and girlfriend. Then Willow didn't tell everyone the full story. She was more covert possibly, but Tara understood magic and it's dangers much more than Kennedy ever will, so she would have to be more careful around her. I think Kennedy trusts Willow - hence the smile (also there because she made Willow happy and is pleased with herself) but Willow is clearly feeling guilty

Maybe the guilt that she's feeling is that this is happening again, and Willow is struggling to stop herself going down the same path. She doesn't know yet about FDW, and I think SV is wrong for her not to look. If Willow sees FDW then she might be strong enough to stop it from happening - but then this is Willow. The girl who caught a glimpse of herself as evil in S3 and hated it, but still went down that road, because the power it gave her was intoxicating. Has she learnt enough from S6 and her time at the coven in England to stop her self going down that path again? It seems at this moment that she didn't, what with FDW and all that. Does seeing what you become cause it happen because you feel you can't change what is going to happen? Or does it force you to look at yourself and change so that it doesn't to happen? Is Willow scared enough of DarkWillow? Has the current Willow gone too far from her teachings at the coven to go back? Hmm, I'll save my judgement on Willow till the end of the arc...

With regards to the "Futuristic Snap" comment. When Buffy looks up and sees a purple car (like the one she just crashed) and an ambulance (like the one that the vamps got out of) going into a landing pad in the building, it's understandable that she would see that it's all very similar to what just happened, hence the "Snap". What I don't understand is why she's seeing the events again from a different perspective. It can't really be just a coincidence can it? Panels in comics are surely only there to advance the story/plot, there aren't any extraneous stuff just to look pretty or make a joke unless they're important or needed - otherwise the comic would be far too long and cost too much to produce, so I think that there is a relevance to it. I just don't really get what it is.

hayes62

07-09-08, 11:16 AM

I don't get how you can say that, especially since the objective fact is that the answer was actually down there anyway. If Buffy goes with Melaka, they meet Willow together. That's their goal accomplished, without having to ignore the murder of a half dozen people. Buffy was both wrong in theory, morally, but also in the effective purpose. She's further away from success now than she would have been had she gone with Melaka.
Willow may have the answer but Willow is not the answer unless she chooses to reveal it. Also Melaka didn't find Willow, Willow chose to reveal herself for her own purposes which from the look of things don't exactly mesh with Buffy's. If Buffy had gone in there she might have been able to ensure that Melaka didn't dust all vamps in a righteous frenzy but there would have been no-one poised to track the 'escapeers.'

My own take on the scene was that Buffy hadn't actually formulated a plan as such when she naysaid Melak's "Let's go." Partly she was responding to Melaka making the same rookie mistake she made many times herself in her hot-blooded youth of throwing all her forces into the battle without cover. At the same time her first sight of what Gunther had described as a hunting party made her realise that where there's a car there's a car park and that Harth's organisation might have a central vulnerability but Melaka didn't give them time to work that insight into a proper plan such as the one stormwreath correctly identified above.

vampmogs

07-09-08, 11:36 AM

I don't think the issue is greatly centred on wether or not Buffy's plan would work, but more to do with at what cost does it come? In theory Buffy's plan would have, more or less worked. She'd have tracked the unaware vampires back to their base and would have found Harth there. But at the cost of loosing all the innocent lives along the way. Buffy took the easy route on this one.

Whereas, Fray’s plan could have worked as well. She jumps down there, defends all the innocent levels, dispatches most of the vamps but also interrogates the other vampire to tell her the location of Harth. We’ve seen Buffy do this in ‘When She Was Bad.’

Buffy's plan was the easier way, the no fail way where Fray's plan could have faulted if the vampire intentionally gave them the wrong location of out spite or managed to get away. But Fray's plan didn't come with a heavy death toll along the way, Buffy's did.

I don't know about the "big picture" thinking on this one. I've always respected characters like Giles, Wesley or Angel who can make the big decisions when they have to. But Buffy was different here. When Giles wants to talk about killing Dawn, he's saying they have to talk about it because "if they don't get there in time, if they can't stop her (Glory)" the dimensions will open. He's not jumping ahead of himself and saying lets kill Dawn and not at least try and save her life, he's saying that they have to be prepared to kill Dawn should they fail. Nor does he ever seem flippant about the worth of Dawn's life either, "I love Dawn, you know that." What Buffy did here was skip to the middle and go straight to plan B, the most safe and secure plan. But the difference between Buffy and Giles in these scenarios is that Giles demonstrated he understood the gravity of what he'd be doing should it have to come to killing Dawn, where Buffy appeared completely indifferent to all the innocent people she was prepared to loose to let her plan run its course. That's what scary and different about this situation.

stormwreath

07-09-08, 01:04 PM

I hope I'm not giving the impression that I think Willow is entirely blameless here. I do think she's doing something worth feeling guilty about; just that it's not nearly as bad as what a lot of people here are implying.

I must admit, I didn't really get a sense that Kennedy was aware of what went down between Willow/Vasuki either.I think she knew the broad outline - Willow was going to see her contact - but Willow probably sketched over some of the details. Like the fact that Saga Vasuki takes the form of a naked snake-woman of unearthly beauty, who has a tendency to act all intimate and affectionate towards her students...

We saw in the last issue that Kennedy can get very jealous and possessive if she thinks someone else (Buffy, in that case) is making moves on Willow, even if she's secure in the knowledge that Willow won't be interested.

When Willow asks Kennedy if she knows she loves her ect, I thought that was Willow trying to reassure Kennedy so that if or when she does find out she doesn't feel betrayed. I thought it was more Willow doing damage control *before* the damage.Kennedy can be self-absorbed and smug sometimes, but she's not stupid; and at this point she's been with Willow for about two years and presumably knows her pretty well. When the conversation is about Willow's magical contact, and Willow starts getting all guilt-ridden and apologetic and reassuring Kennedy that she does love her really, it doesn't take a genius to put two and two together.

Then again, since Kennedy does know Willow so well, I think she's familiar with her tendency to get all flustered and guilt-ridden about the silliest and most trivial of things, so she probably doesn't take this too seriously. Which is perhaps a mistake.

when Willow is trying to find a way of bringing Buffy back and Kennedy is all encouraging. It's so creepily reminiscent of Bargaining Part 1 and 2.Absolutely. Mind you, I do think Willow is more self-aware than she was in S6; witness the way she says that time-bending is too dark and dangerous for her to mess with. But I think she's balanced on a knife-edge, as the dramatic irony in her words makes clear: because Future!Willow clearly has been messing with time-bending, and fallen to the 'deep dark'. The question is, will this Willow make the same mistakes, or manage to avoid them?

I wonder if Saga Vasuki doesn't want Willow to learn about her future self because she's afraid Willow will turn away from the darkness, which SV wants to bring about? Or whether it's more complicated than that, and SV is actually trying to protect Willow, because if Willow tries to avoid becoming her future dark self, she'll actually make the mistakes that allow that to happen?

With regards to the "Futuristic Snap" comment. When Buffy looks up and sees a purple car (like the one she just crashed) and an ambulance (like the one that the vamps got out of) going into a landing pad in the building, it's understandable that she would see that it's all very similar to what just happened, hence the "Snap".It's a purple van, not a car. I think Buffy's just reacting to seeing the ambulance (and the van too) going into a huge building, when she expected to just find it parked next to a more typical vamp nest.

And from urbandictionary.com:
SNAP expression: used to describe 1. dismay 2. disbeleif 3. surprise 4. joy

The word doesn't just mean "these two things are alike" any more - I suspect "oh snap" is a euphemism for "oh shit".

dinamo

07-09-08, 01:23 PM

Is it Willow who has done the time bendy stuff though. She seemed almost powerless, or was that because all her power had been put into the time bending stuff and maybe keeping herself alive for so long? Or was she maybe just lying to Fray to make herself seem like less of a threat?

vampmogs

07-09-08, 01:45 PM

I think she knew the broad outline - Willow was going to see her contact - but Willow probably sketched over some of the details. Like the fact that Saga Vasuki takes the form of a naked snake-woman of unearthly beauty, who has a tendency to act all intimate and affectionate towards her students...

Perhaps. Like I said when I read the issue for the first and second time I'd gotten the same impression both times, which was Kennedy had no clue. After reading your thoughts on it I've went back and re-read the issue and am willing to admit it's more ambiguous than that, it's certainly very possible your interpretation is correct. I'm just very unsure of my own feelings on the matter at the moment.

We saw in the last issue that Kennedy can get very jealous and possessive if she thinks someone else (Buffy, in that case) is making moves on Willow, even if she's secure in the knowledge that Willow won't be interested.

I think it's the big grin on her face which is making me find it hard to believe she knows about this. She hated Willow using her power in 'Get It Done' to open the portal and whilst this wouldn't be as physically shocking for Kennedy, I can't help but feel she'd have some reservations about having sex with Willow as a way to open up some kind of gateway to one of their contacts. I'm not saying she wouldn't agree to do it, I think it's possible she would, especially if Willow kept a lot of the details from her as you've suggested, but I'm just not sure such a satisfied grin would be the expression on Kennedy's face.

Kennedy can be self-absorbed and smug sometimes, but she's not stupid; and at this point she's been with Willow for about two years and presumably knows her pretty well. When the conversation is about Willow's magical contact, and Willow starts getting all guilt-ridden and apologetic and reassuring Kennedy that she does love her really, it doesn't take a genius to put two and two together.

Then again, since Kennedy does know Willow so well, I think she's familiar with her tendency to get all flustered and guilt-ridden about the silliest and most trivial of things, so she probably doesn't take this too seriously. Which is perhaps a mistake.

She's also rather clueless about magic which might mean she underestimates the gravity of what's going down...

The one thing that supports your theory is that it's a rather odd time to have casual sex. I guess I could see Kennedy doing it but Buffy's missing in some future world and Kennedy things she has enough time to get Willow in the sack? Hmm...

Did anyone notice this;

WILLOW: So who told you –

VASUKI: Someone I trusted.

Someone told Vasuki to tell Willow she could learn about the scythe in New York? Like Willow I assumed Vasuki set her up for some reason, but now are we meant to believe someone actually set Vasuki up? If so, who? Twilight? Kumiko? I think Twilight's more likely, being a student I don't think Vasuki would take a hunch of Kumiko.. could be wrong though...

I wonder if Saga Vasuki doesn't want Willow to learn about her future self because she's afraid Willow will turn away from the darkness, which SV wants to bring about?

That's my best guess. That or she really does care about Willow and doesn't want to see her upset about her future self...

Is it Willow who has done the time bendy stuff though. She seemed almost powerless, or was that because all her power had been put into the time bending stuff and maybe keeping herself alive for so long? Or was she maybe just lying to Fray to make herself seem like less of a threat?

I'm thinking it's either because she's being using all her power to stay alive or because there's very little magic in Fray's future world.. According to Fray mythology it was supposed to be wiped out all together not to long ago :)

dinamo

07-09-08, 02:41 PM

Could the trusted someone be Future Willow? Maybe she wanted to make things better, and the reason Saga Vasuki doesn't want Willow to look into the future has something to do with that, because it would effect Future Willow is current Willow looked? although Saga Vasuki could have lied and created the time thing herself for FDW.

Also on Kennedy being clueles when it comes to magic, I'm not so sure. She was clueles in Season 7, but surely she can't still be like that now after 2 years with Willow and with that comes to unavoidable possibility of being around magic at its best and worst. I don't think she knows whats going on or else I think she'd have asked afterwards if Willow got what she needed. The contrast in their facial expressions is just too much for two people who know what they've just done. It looks more like one person who doesn't know, and one who does. I think Kennedy knows something is going on with a contact in some shape or form and Willow has her fingers in many pies so to speak. But I don't think she knows anything about Saga Vasuki other than she's some kind of contact Willow has, and perhaps that she's connected to her mysitcal walkabout thing.

I suspect Kennedy knows very little, but when she does find out everything all hell will break loose. Although one thing that has come out of this Issue is the fact that I'm not sure I believe that Willow has slept with Vasuki now after we've found out how she gets to her domain. The panel where she was naked in ''Anywhere But Here'' no longer looks so bad. But its still a form of cheating by lying to Kennedy and using her like that, and thats going to hurt. Especially as by using Kennedy to get there she could be putting Kennedy in unknown dangers without Kennedy's knowledge. We don't know what happens to Kennedy when Willow is off elsewhere.

Roses-r-Red

07-09-08, 03:56 PM

Could the trusted someone be Future Willow?

That's what I assumed when I read it. I think Saga's relationship with present Willow lasts through time and when Future Willow asks her to send Buffy to the future, she does it. That's why when Willow says she doesn't have enough power Saga questions it. She knows how powerful Willow is because she's seen it in the future.

KingofCretins

07-09-08, 05:30 PM

I definitely see Willow as submissive to Vasuki -- sexually submissive, really. Sexually for the simple reason that sexually is, to this point, the only way Vasuki interacts at all. Any submission to Vasuki is implicitly sexual, as her non-stop innuendo makes fairly clear.

And, yeah, when Willow is naked, kneeling in front of her, bowing her head, and accepting Vasuki's command without explanation simply because Vasuki wishes it -- that's submissive. That panel is next to submissive in the dictionary.

And there is simply no way from the scene with Willow and Kennedy afterwards that one could argue that Kennedy knows that Willow's magic sex contact spell trance thing brought her back to the very sexy snake woman demon thing whose favoritest things are manifesting between Willow's legs and coiling around her naked body.

What Willow's doing is no more or no less an example of cheating than, for instance, Riley going to see the vampires was. More so, if anything, since the contact is explicitly sexual and not only metaphorically so. And there's no way to rationalize her way around that, especially since we have no firsthand evidence that she's done it for the same reason she's ever done anything -- more knowledge, more power, more reassurance that she's not still Season 1 Willow.

I didn't take Vasuki as candid when she said "someone I trusted" about her tip -- I thought she was just making a show of excluding Willow, the student who abandoned her, and simultaneously reminding her that information of value only comes with obedience. *Maybe* she was telling the truth, but I doubt it -- if she knows what Willow would see if she looks ahead in time, would she really still be "wrong" about her tip? I think she gave the tip and it did exactly what she wanted, which is A) put Willow in a position to draw on more of the power Vasuki probably taught her, and B) obligate her to Vasuki for the help in fixing the crisis that Vasuki created. The snake lady is bad news.

We could draw on our own speculation and old spoilers/teasers to guess what Willow showed Melaka -- Buffy herself ending the age of magic, undoing the Slayer spell, standing at Twilight's side while she does it (post-"After the Fall" Angel or Spike are still in the mix here, IMO). Buffy thinking it's the right thing because it's gotten too out of control. Basically depriving Melaka of her heritage and putting her in this current situation.

stormwreath

07-09-08, 07:51 PM

Sexually for the simple reason that sexually is, to this point, the only way Vasuki interacts at all.It takes two for it to count as 'sexual interaction', and Willow isn't showing the least bit of sexual attraction to SV here. In fact, the situation is making her highly uncomfortable. And frankly, I've encountered more explicit sexual innuendo than that in the typical workplace. :) (Though less nakedness, granted.)

And, yeah, when Willow is naked, kneeling in front of her, bowing her head, and accepting Vasuki's command without explanation simply because Vasuki wishes it -- that's submissive.I don't think she's kneeling; she's shown as sitting down in the previous side-view panel. And yes, she's humbly acknowledging the fact that SV has the right to ask a favour of her, in return for the assistance she just gave. But "submissive" hardly fits with what we saw on the previous two pages, with a scowling Willow staring SV straight in the eye and accusing her of lying.

And there is simply no way from the scene with Willow and Kennedy afterwards that one could argue that Kennedy knows that Willow's magic sex contact spell trance thing brought her back to the very sexy snake woman demon thing whose favoritest things are manifesting between Willow's legs and coiling around her naked body.I've already agreed that I don't think Kennedy knows what Saga Vasuki looks like, and that she would be jealous and upset if she witnessed that last scene.

I also think that she'd be furious with Saga Vasuki, not with Willow. Which might be fatal for her, if SV is as powerful as I think she is.

And I think "manifesting between Willow's legs" is a rather a biased way of describing the situation. She's manifesting in front of her.

What Willow's doing is no more or no less an example of cheating than, for instance, Riley going to see the vampires was.Or Buffy going to train with Angel in Season Three without telling Giles about it. It's on about that level of betrayal.

we have no firsthand evidence that she's done it for the same reason she's ever done anything -- more knowledge, more power, more reassurance that she's not still Season 1 Willow.Are those bad things? Especially since she seems so determined now to "use her powers for good" and avoid things that "only someone on the deep dark would mess with"?

I didn't take Vasuki as candid when she said "someone I trusted" about her tip -- I thought she was just making a show of excluding Willow, the student who abandoned her, and simultaneously reminding her that information of value only comes with obedience. Hmm. Possibly; she came across to me more as pouty and sulking rather than throwing her weight around. But it is clear that she's refusing to tell Willow the name of her source, either to retain some of her power, or because her source was Willow herself. And yes, it could be that she's trying to draw Willow deeper into her nets of obligation.

I still don't think Saga Vasuki is outright evil, but she's clearly dangerous, incredibly powerful, and more than a little morally grey.

But then again, exactly the same can be said about Willow herself. :) Perhaps we should be warning Saga Vasuki not to get tangled up with Willow?