Things Readers Want.

[-beardo-]

So i thought i might make a thread about what the readers and fans would like to see in season eight and even season nine. Whether its the return of another character, a death, and intriguing story line. What do you want? You can comment on others and see if they have ideas that you agree with.

So here is what i would like to see:

-The next season should not be titled season nine in my opinion. Bring over Angel from After The Fall and name the series Buffy The Vampire Slayer and Angel Season One.
-So it has been stated by Joss that he regards the Buffy Movie to be set in a parallel universe to the normal one. How about and arc where Buffy is transported over the Movie universe and we could see what is happening in the world of Kristy Swanson's Buffy. (Would like comments for this one)
-I would love to see the return on Cordelia
-This isn't a really big one but i would like all the characters to loose their fake memories of dawn. So all the fake memories of dawn that were planted in there by the monks should be reverted to the true memories. Dawn could then see what her life was like as the key.
-Oz becoming a main character again.

What would you like?

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Things I would like…

-Twilight is a new character, not someone we know already. Much more interesting, imo, if they give him some other reason for wearing a mask…perhaps it’s because of the type of person/creature he is? Or because he’s known to some of his allies?

- That all the plot strands get paid off nicely…Dawn’s transformations serve a greater purpose, Buffy and Giles’s tensions and oppositions come to a head, Willow and Saga Vaskui’s interactions ditto, and the Buffy/Willow plotline plays out in a twisty, torturous but ultimately satisfying way.

[Moviesnob]

- A return of Oz would totally make my day. As long as it's taciturn, knowing, make-me-squee Oz and not some heavy-handed Oz that's gone through too many life changes.
- More interaction between the gang, and some bonding.
- A return of Giles and Faith

[Charles]

Buffy and Angel taken away from Joss and given to someone who has a clue and some originality.

Kurt Buisek and Bruce Kalish would be my top two choices.

[KingofCretins]

Well, didn't take long for this to get hijacked into another ripping-Season-8-apart thread. There never seem to be fewer than two such threads at a time.

Things I would like in Season 8 --

Faith and Giles to return sooner rather than later.
Oz' return to be permanent and not just a one-arc guest appearance.
Xander to get into a relationship with a Summers woman, preferably the elder.
All the Scoobies alive and still good guys :)

[smashed]

1) No more Dark!Willow. It's so lame! :coffee:
2) Tara, come back! Preferably as a regular. :xd
3) Get rid of Dawn/Xander. Ewww.
4) Reverse the slayer spell.
5) Let Buffy be in a happy, normal, relationship for once.
6) they should have never killed Renee. Too late though.

[stormwreath]

Set a limit to the number of old characters they bring back... Amy, Warren, Ethan, Oz... it's getting predictable. Tara would be the last straw. Instead, spend some time developing and flashing out the newer characters - Satsu, Leah and Rowena (too late for Renee, obviously), and perhaps also Kennedy, Vi, Rona and Andrew.

All the Scoobies alive and still good guys This.
Also, the Slayer spell still active. And preferably Willow still in a relationship with Kennedy, though that would depend on how they break up if she isn't.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

Buffy and Angel taken away from Joss and given to someone who has a clue and some originality.

You talk a big show, but I haven't seen your body of work, yet. Maybe you'd like to point me to something I can review?

[Rowan Hawthorn]

Well, didn't take long for this to get hijacked into another ripping-Season-8-apart thread. There never seem to be fewer than two such threads at a time.

That's why I really miss all the discussions on Usenet - at least there, you have a killfile for posters and threads...

[Charles]

You talk a big show, but I haven't seen your body of work, yet. Maybe you'd like to point me to something I can review?

I'll freely admit here and now that I'm no creative genius and that the things I've written are at best mediocre.

The difference is I'm willing to admit my efforts are subpar and have either done what I can to improve or in some cases abandoned what I was doing rather then continue to mangle the characters and stories.

So I know I suck and stink at some things. That doesn't mean I cannot criticize or judge another person's work, particularly when said person is employed in this field. I don't know what you're trying to get at by saying "I talk a good game" then apparently implying there needst to be minium qualifications of a certain level or standard in order to express an opinion on any given subject.

If that is indeed what you are trying to do.

As for the link check your pm's in a bit.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

I'll freely admit here and now that I'm no creative genius and that the things I've written are at best mediocre.

The difference is I'm willing to admit my efforts are subpar and have either done what I can to improve or in some cases abandoned what I was doing rather then continue to mangle the characters and stories.

So I know I suck and stink at some things. That doesn't mean I cannot criticize or judge another person's work, particularly when said person is employed in this field. I don't know what you're trying to get at by saying "I talk a good game" then apparently implying there needst to be minium qualifications of a certain level or standard in order to express an opinion on any given subject.

If that is indeed what you are trying to do.

No. My point is that I have yet to see any comment that doesn't give the appearance of criticizing for the sake of criticizing; "Buffy and Angel taken away from Joss and given to someone who has a clue and some originality" can by no stretch of the imagination be claimed as a reasonable "critique," That pretty much places Whedon's work well below the "mediocre" that you judge your own, so if his stuff sells, surely yours should.

Flat out: is there anything in the entire Whedon canon that meets your standards of acceptability? And if not, why are you bothering with it? Seems to me it would be less stressful to find someone whose work actually pleases you - like maybe Kurt Busiek or Bruce Kalish, perhaps. I'm frankly mystified as to why people who give every appearance of hating everything that's been done with the story would torment themselves by continuing to follow it. Personally, I give a TV show two or three episodes, and a comic six issues; if I don't like them by the end of that time, I write them off and get on with my life.

As for the link check your pm's in a bit.

Got it. I will read it. And, rest assured: I don't read a lot of fanfic, but so far, I've been kinder to fanfic I despised than what I've been reading here.

[vampmogs]

Buffy and Angel taken away from Joss and given to someone who has a clue and some originality.

Can I just ask why you're reading season 8? You've made it your mission to hate anything Joss does in some weird personal vendetta against the man so what's the need to continue reading anything Buffyverse related, seeing as how it'll always be Joss Whedon's world? Given your comments you think the series has lacked originality for some time, pre-dating season 8, so it seems rather pointless in you continuing to invest time into something you don't plan to ever enjoy as long as he’s at the wheel, which he always will be?

Things I'd like to see;

1) Permanent return of Giles. I love his character, I miss his character, I'd love to see him stay when he returns. I love Faith but I think part of her appeal is showing up, showing us how brilliant her character is then leaving for a while before the shine wears of so I don't mind as much if she isn't permanent. But Giles, gotta have Giles. :)

2) Kennedy being very, very jealous of Oz :D

3) A real Xander/Willow bonding scene or even a scene of them confronting each other, perhaps Willow confronting Xander about Buffy's decisions, or Xander confronting Willow over Vasuki.

4) Warren get the absolute tar kicked outta him...

[ThePoet's<3]

Things I would like in Season 8 --

Faith and Giles to return sooner rather than later.
Oz' return to be permanent and not just a one-arc guest appearance.


1) 4) Reverse the slayer spell.



Riley IS Twilight! (pleaseohpleaseohplease)
Buffy knows Spike is alive.

[Weredog]

Just one, really:

- Have the issues dive into the characters ala "No Future for You" or "A Beautiful Sunset." These plot-driven issues, like "Long Way Home" and "Time of Your Life", don't engage me in the characters. I get it: Buffy is pist the government is on their tail-- but what about her issues with men? Why is her relationship with Dawn so strained? I want to see her point of view on everything, as we did in "A Beautiful Sunset" thoroughly. Make that for all the characters!

[sueworld]

Things I would like…

-Twilight is a new character, not someone we know already. Much more interesting, imo, if they give him some other reason for wearing a mask…perhaps it’s because of the type of person/creature he is? Or because he’s known to some of his allies?

- That all the plot strands get paid off nicely…Dawn’s transformations serve a greater purpose, Buffy and Giles’s tensions and oppositions come to a head, Willow and Saga Vaskui’s interactions ditto, and the Buffy/Willow plotline plays out in a twisty, torturous but ultimately satisfying way.

Couldn't have said it any better myself. :D

[RAZOR0018]

I want the comics to be double the length they currently are. Waiting half a year for what essentially would be one episode of Buffy is too long.

[sueworld]

Waiting half a year for what essentially would be one episode of Buffy is too long.

I don't even think they equate to being that long do they? I think it was someone else on here who said that in real time their more like a 20min segment.

It takes me, what 10 mins to read the things. Then back to another long wait. :roll:

*ETA* What do you mean an entire story arc? Yeah, still too long, but sadly it's the nature of the medium.

[stormwreath]

I don't even think they equate to being that long do they? I think it was someone else on here who said that in real time their more like a 20min segment.I think I worked out once that there's the same amount of dialogue in a 43-minute episode of 'Buffy' as in about three issues of the comics. So as a rule of thumb, I assumed that a four-issue arc was equal to a double episode (such as 'What's My Line' or 'Graduation Day'), and a single-issue standalone was equal to a (very short) single episode.

[vampmogs]

I think I worked out once that there's the same amount of dialogue in a 43-minute episode of 'Buffy' as in about three issues of the comics. So as a rule of thumb, I assumed that a four-issue arc was equal to a double episode (such as 'What's My Line' or 'Graduation Day'), and a single-issue standalone was equal to a (very short) single episode.

Darkhorse is advertising one arc as one episode in their ‘No Future For You’ TPB adverts, and generally that's how I've always viewed them. For me if it's got a new title it's a new episode basically, but I think we can all view them however we like really.

Generally for me, one issue is one act. That’s how it always feels for me with issue one being the set up, with issue two being the middle part before things really start running (probably why they’re most people’s least favourite) with issue three setting up the big doom and gloom and then issue four being the big climatic conclusion, just like an eppy :)

But either way, by the end of it I'm satisfied we got a whole 'episodes' worth out of one act, or even one standalone. I mean yeah in the standalones we don't have as much dialouge but enough happens to qualify for one episode of a televised season in my opinion.

[Nina]

1) Permanent return of Giles. I love his character, I miss his character, I'd love to see him stay when he returns. I love Faith but I think part of her appeal is showing up, showing us how brilliant her character is then leaving for a while before the shine wears of so I don't mind as much if she isn't permanent. But Giles, gotta have Giles. :)

3) A real Xander/Willow bonding scene or even a scene of them confronting each other, perhaps Willow confronting Xander about Buffy's decisions, or Xander confronting Willow over Vasuki.


This are two of the things I really want to see. I miss the whole Xander/Willow friendship in the comics. And Giles needs to come back, with or without Faith. Faith can go to LA after ATF or come back ... I like Faith but I don't really need her in season 8 right now ... (And before the whole 'ATF has already too many characters' comments, I suspect that the team is not that large anymore after ATF.)

I also agree with;
- Have the issues dive into the characters ala "No Future for You" or "A Beautiful Sunset." These plot-driven issues, like "Long Way Home" and "Time of Your Life", don't engage me in the characters. I get it: Buffy is pist the government is on their tail-- but what about her issues with men? Why is her relationship with Dawn so strained? I want to see her point of view on everything, as we did in "A Beautiful Sunset" thoroughly. Make that for all the characters!
NFFY and ABS are my two favourite stories, and I would love it when give me more insight in the characters ... I want to know how Buffy really feels about being a leader and how far she wants to go with protecting those. Or Willow and her Magic journey .... or Xander and his feelings about the girls around him.

And I my most important wish for the comics;
- That all the plot strands get paid off nicely…Dawn’s transformations serve a greater purpose, Buffy and Giles’s tensions and oppositions come to a head, Willow and Saga Vaskui’s interactions ditto, and the Buffy/Willow plotline plays out in a twisty, torturous but ultimately satisfying way.
I'm done with unfinished storylines ... season 7 had too many. Season 8 needs to heal me ...

further;
I'm okay with Twilight being a known character, but I don't want it to be a 'good' character. Twilight has some points about the danger of many slayers but the guy is evil ... and I would hate it if one of the good guys gets changed into Twilight ... just for the big shock. If Twilight was just against all those slayers and tried to stop it without murder, bombs, working with Warren and Amy .. but with talking or a debat maybe ... I would be okay with it being Riley or Angel ... or Giles. But right now, I prefer a new character or a forgotten character. And I prefer not another 'back from the death' character.

Since season 5 we had storylines about Buffy feeling alone and different. It's interesting that 2000 slayers don't make her feel less alone but I'm also kind of tired to hear that she is alone every single season ... this season it's not just Buffy but also her best friend starts saying it. We get it, Buffy is alone. Characters like Faith, Giles, Wesley or Angel must be much more alone ... still it's not their storyline for 4 seasons. Give the girl a new emotional storyline or let her have peace with this one ... or make it a less important storyline in her story.

I want to see Dana and the 'Damage' storyline explained. Who did it and why?

[vampmogs]

I want to see Dana and the 'Damage' storyline explained. Who did it and why?

Yes, I'd *love* that! When Scott Allie opened up for questions when Issue #17 came out I felt like kicking myself after that I didn't ask if we'd get any follow up on that this season. I don't know how spoilerific it would have been, but I'd have wanted any kind of answer really.

[Vampire in Rug]

Ah, Vampmogs I feel your regret. I too forgot to ask questions when I had the opportunity. There's always next time I suppose.

As far as I'm concerned, Twilight is someone we should recognize. If he's not then I'm going to be majorly disapointed beacuse *he's wearing a freaking mask*. I'm fine with new characters but if we're going to be teased by a mystery character in a mask, only to have it be someone completely new... I would find that very lame. I mean, it's the same argument that applies to the (stupid) theory of Twilight being Willow using a man-glamor: if it's someone we wouldn't recognize anyway, why wear the mask?? He's not just using the mask to hide his identity from other characters, the mask is being used to hide his identity from the audience.

I second that I want to see Dana.

I want to see Dawn return to normal sooner rather than later. I'm finding centaur Dawn somewhat more tolerable than giant Dawn, but I'd still rather human Dawn.

I want more Leah. I hope she isn't dead.

I'm hoping for no more dead characters returning from the grave. We've had way too many already. Tara, Anya and Cordelia should stay dead.

I want Andrew to meet up with Warren.

I'd like to see a side of Amy that isn't evil. I feel kinda sorry for her, and while I think the majority of people don't want another redemtion story, I actually wouldn't mind it.

[KingofCretins]

I'd like to see the Dana *character*, but I'm not sure what the mystery Nina is referring to is. "Damage" seemed pretty self-explanatory and still does.

Leah may have survived, as they were trying to carry her out through the tunnels in 8.17. Of course, it's always possible the Slayer army takes its code of honor from the USMC.

[NileQT87]

ditto with dana. and no, it wasn't self-explanatory unless you actively want buffy to be seen in the worst light possible (and at this point, i wouldn't advise joss of running his main character into the gutter much more).

however, the andrew/giles connection is backed up by the fact that andrew has already been caught in a major lie involving angel and not telling buffy what was so funny about one of the faux-buffys dating the immortal. we also know that buffy has been continuously shown to be out of the loop about everything... the faux-buffys, genevieve savidge, simone doffler... she's always the last one to know. giles, andrew, faith, xander, willow... they all know things before buffy does.

dana is also a storyline that needs continuation for her own sake. i think that storyline showed more corruption on the andrew/giles front and possibly buffy front than it ever did about angel. in fact, angel wanted to help her for all the right reasons. he was also right to take down the black thorn.

[Tom]

Buffy and Angel taken away from Joss and given to someone who has a clue and some originality.

Kurt Buisek and Bruce Kalish would be my top two choices.

Bruce Kalish? He's a Power Ranger writer.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

Bruce Kalish? He's a Power Ranger writer.

Well, that explains a couple of things...

[KingofCretins]

ditto with dana. and no, it wasn't self-explanatory unless you actively want buffy to be seen in the worst light possible (and at this point, i wouldn't advise joss of running his main character into the gutter much more)

I thought Buffy came off pretty well; finally resting her decisions on the facts ahead of her emotion. It was a very hard and painful and adult decision to make that call.

I just don't see any outstanding mystery to "Damage" anymore than I do to, I dunno, Lindsey and Eve's parasite in "Soul Purpose". Certainly if we were meant to be faced with a mystery from the episode, it would have come up again in Season 5, *especially* after they knew they were cancelled. Apparently, the writers thought there was as much of a mystery as I do.

Dana's own character, however, really is something interesting to explore that would fit in perfectly in Season 8 -- she's yet another dilemma created by Buffy's spell. A symbolic sister to Simone (just a bad chick) and Genevieve (the corruptible), Dana is the pure victim.

he was also right to take down the black thorn.

Except for the part about being completely wrong (if for no other reason than he admitted at the outset that it wouldn't make a difference and would only be a symbolic gesture). But that's an argument for a 10th different Angel thread :)

A Power Ranger writer? That really does say a lot right there. I would have thought we'd at least stayed in the neighborhood -- I assume Vaughan or Goddard are out because their unworthy hands have touched the filthy comics, but, y'know, Petrie or Noxon (eh)? Maybe David Goyer, who wrote all three "Blade" movies and directed "Blade: Trinity", and is writing "The Flash" and "X-Men Origins: Magneto", and also "Batman Begins". I mean, that would be a suggestion. But a Power Ranger writer?

[vampmogs]

I thought Buffy came off pretty well; finally resting her decisions on the facts ahead of her emotion. It was a very hard and painful and adult decision to make that call.

I have to disagree with that. There’s ways to go about being mature without having to turn rather cruel and calculated about it. And that’s pretty much what Buffy was in this episode. She intentionally played and manipulated Angel into doing the hard work for her, the whole time planning to, as Spike puts it, “double cross” him at the end of it all, and threaten him with physical violence should he not automatically comply with her wishes. To me, that shows anything but Buffy coming across “pretty well” in this situation. Quite the opposite in fact.

I agree with Andrew, he was ultimately right when he tells Angel that Dana is a slayer which means it is their problem. He’s one hundred percent correct, this happened as a direct result from Buffy’s spell and like all the other slayers they’ve had to deal with, it’s Buffy’s responsibility to take care of the issue. Therein lies the problem though, Buffy basically let Angel take care of her responsibilities, do all the hard work then she claims the end result as her own and expects Angel just to deal with it. She couldn’t be more wrong in this situation. The “adult” thing to do here would be for Buffy to deal with it herself, or at least entirely within her own organisation, not get someone else to do the dirty work for you.

And in all honesty it’s a tad hypercritical to stand in front of Angel and have Andrew say “We’re not on the same side” and yet use the resources of Wolfram and Hart and Angel and work alongside him with for much of the episode. You can’t have it both ways, they aren’t on the same side yet Buffy’s fine with working with Wolfram and Hart and Angel when she needs to? Nah.. Doesn’t work that way.

The girl trusted Angel enough to know that he wouldn’t kill Dana or she wouldn’t have let Angel go for her in the first place. That tells me everything, she may not have trusted him completely but she trusted him enough to know he would both, want to help Dana and protect innocent lives in Los Angeles. She played on all the good aspects of Angel’s character she knew existent in him, to achieve her end goal and that kinda manipulation is not on.

Allie made the very intentional comparison between Buffy and her organisation and that of the Watcher’s Council and I can’t help but feel it comes into play here. Simply envision ‘Helpless’ with Buffy standing in Quentin’s position and you have her telling Angel that “she isn’t in the business of fair” and that Angel “is the tool in which she fights evil.” Scary stuff.

If anything I'd say it works for her character so well this season because like the Bank Robbery, contemplating killing humans, having decoys stand in the line of fire it further goes to show that she's changed whilst having to head up this organisation. Buffy isn't sitting in her castle as the evil queen, far from it. But I think everything we've seen shows she isn't aware of the dangerous games she's playing and how ruthless and wrong she's being, I could see the same situation with what went down with Angel here.

But I agree, unless we get any more information, as it stands right now Andrew was telling the truth.

Dana's own character, however, really is something interesting to explore that would fit in perfectly in Season 8 -- she's yet another dilemma created by Buffy's spell. A symbolic sister to Simone (just a bad chick) and Genevieve (the corruptible), Dana is the pure victim.

Agree completely. The whole story works so well for the overall theme of season 8 and Buffy's story that'd be a terrible shame not to have it included in season 8.

[stormwreath]

She intentionally played and manipulated Angel into doing the hard work for her, the whole time planning to, as Spike puts it, “double cross” him at the end of it all, and threaten him with physical violence should he not automatically comply with her wishes. To me, that shows anything but Buffy coming across “pretty well” in this situation. Quite the opposite in fact.It comes across fine to me... but I think that to see it from Buffy's (and my) perspective, you need to replace 'Angel' in that sentence with 'Wolfram & Hart'.

There's an insane Slayer loose in Los Angeles, and Wolfram & Hart are using all their resources to look for her. When they find her, they plan to strap her to a gurney and take her off to their secret underground laboratories.

Sure, the local W&H boss happens to be Buffy's ex-boyfriend, and she's fairly sure he's not evil... if anything, Buffy is unaware of just how ruthless and manipulating Angel can be even when he isn't Angelus, because he never showed that side to her. But she doesn't know whether he's been corrupted or sold out. Or whether he's a figurehead, with the real decisions being made over his head or behind his back. Or whether he may mean well, but his instructions will be twisted or ignored by other people on his staff who are evil and who do have their own agenda.

And in fact, Buffy's suspicions turn out to be pretty much correct. Just ask Fred.

And no, I don'ty blame her for being distrusting of Angel; and yes, I think it was a pretty clever move to fool the most evil large organisation on Earth into doing her work for her. Sure, Buffy's more manipulative and cunning than she used to be... she's growing up. Which was also a theme of the show, as I recall...

[Koos]

I'm satisfied with the way things are going right now. So, I'd like to see this continued.
Personally I hope Xander/Faith will have a moment. That would make me happy.

On the note of guest-characters appearing, I hope that Joss is carefull with that. Oz was brought in under the wishes of the fans. I can be okay with that. But the show is not suppose to be there to make all the fanbases by giving cameo's or more to all the characters that once have been. In that way there's no room left for a story to be told.
And IMO there are already too many characters involved.

[Sosa lola]

1- Giles return and stay as a regular.
2- A bonding scene between Xander and Willow.
3- An issue that shows as a flashback to what happened during the time between S7 and S8.
4- Less returning old characters and more new interesting characters like Satsu and Renee.
5- More Leah and Rewana.
6- Dawn to return to her normal self.
7- Warren and Amy going away and never returning.
8- Buffy's reaction to Spike being alive.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

Would I sound shallow if I said "naked Willow"?






...yes? Oh, well, I can live with that... :D

[Thomas]

Would I sound shallow if I said "naked Willow"?






...yes? Oh, well, I can live with that... :DUm, 'Anywhere But Here?' That's the closest you'll get. ;)

[Rowan Hawthorn]

Um, 'Anywhere But Here?' That's the closest you'll get. ;)

But... but... Joss promised... (well, no, he didn't, exactly. But hey, wishful thinking seems to be an established part of fandom. I'm still holding out for the live-action, all-nude episode to air... :lol:)

[tangent]

1) The overall arc to have a really heavyweight payoff
2) The scoobies coming out of this tighter and more together than ever.
3) Twilight's motives to actually have nothing to do with ending magic but be far more personal.
4) More semi-hidden little in jokes and guest appearences
5) More Faith & Giles


that should do for now.

[Michael]

The situation that existed at the end of No Future For You needs to be clarified, but not in a nice way.

I don't mind Buffy becoming more ruthless. In fact I have long fancied the idea of "Dark Buffy".

Dawn should get back to normal and form a relationship with Xander.

Buffy should have a serious love interest. I like the idea of a mature man, maybe ten years or so older than Buffy, a brilliant intellectual with visionary,mystical inclinations. He could be an archaeologist with intelligence connections and a touch of T.E. Lawrence.

Twilight should be exposed as something of a fraud.

[vampmogs]

There's an insane Slayer loose in Los Angeles, and Wolfram & Hart are using all their resources to look for her. When they find her, they plan to strap her to a gurney and take her off to their secret underground laboratories.

So secret that they not only call Giles in to help them with Dana but also give one of his 'top men' full access to? It's not as if they were shielding Buffy's organisation from anything, it was never a hidden process it was a very transparent operation.

Sure, the local W&H boss happens to be Buffy's ex-boyfriend, and she's fairly sure he's not evil... if anything, Buffy is unaware of just how ruthless and manipulating Angel can be even when he isn't Angelus, because he never showed that side to her. But she doesn't know whether he's been corrupted or sold out. Or whether he's a figurehead, with the real decisions being made over his head or behind his back. Or whether he may mean well, but his instructions will be twisted or ignored by other people on his staff who are evil and who do have their own agenda.

More reason to take the time to find this out for herself, or at least send someone with more brains than Andrew to suss out the situation. You've wrote a long list of things Buffy didn’t know, the most logical thing Buffy could do to find out any of this information would be to, well... try? There are many ways she could have attempted to do this. I think she owes that to the guy who not only rings her and informs her of a slayer problem but also came to Sunnydale and handed her an amulet that basically won them her war. It's common courtesy.

And it goes back to this whole trust thing again. Buffy didn't trust Angel, yet she trusts him enough to take on Dana and capture her without killing her? She trusts him enough to know he'll be wanting to protect people from Dana? And she trusts him enough to send someone into Wolfram and Hart knowing Angel won't harm them? And if she thought he might and Andrew's some potential sacrifice then that kinda makes it all the more worse...

And no, I don'ty blame her for being distrusting of Angel; and yes, I think it was a pretty clever move to fool the most evil large organisation on Earth into doing her work for her. Sure, Buffy's more manipulative and cunning than she used to be... she's growing up. Which was also a theme of the show, as I recall...

Like I said in my previous post, I don't think one has to be more ruthless and dogmatic to show signs they've grown up. The most grown up and mature thing she could have done would be to let her own organisation handle it from the start. If they couldn't and needed Angel's help it makes one wonder which organisation really should have looked after Dana in the first place. Because really, I'd trust Angel looking after Dana with his track record with Faith over Andrew any day, no brainer.

I'm also pretty angry about the physical intimidation. It's that whole "master race do what we say or we'll hurt you" that has got people like Twilight so rattled up in the first place. I don't think anyone can honestly blame Angel for not wanting to turn such a delicate person like Dana over to *Andrew.* The guy we saw in 'Damage' was utterly useless, why would Angel think that's a good idea?

But in general I'm confused as to why Andrew's got any kind of high ranking position. It's the one thing I see no logical reason for. He couldn't muster any kind of valid argument as to why slayers couldn't use guns, "passed the buck" with Simone by sending her to Rona, couldn't successfully convince Angel to hand Dana over without physical muscle backing him up and the whole "I'm 80% more manly thing" about Giles training him was used as a joke in 'Damage.' Against Watcher's like Giles and Wes, how does Andrew even compare as anyone who should be managing slayers?

[stormwreath]

You've wrote a long list of things Buffy didn’t know, the most logical thing Buffy could do to find out any of this information would be to, well... try? How do you know she didn't try? Remember, you're seeing all this from Angel's perspective; she didn't have the same privileged insight into his conversations that TV viewers got.

The thing is, Wolfram & Hart had changed some of its policies after Angel took over, but for the most part it was still business as usual. It was like Eve said - W&H is a major resource, but only if it continues to run as a profitable business. And that means representing evil clients, protecting the interests of demons, being Evil. If Buffy and the Slayers tried investigating, that's what they'd find. A few demons might complain that the new CEO of the LA branch was a bit of a wuss; but W&H hadn't suddenly converted to the side of Good.

And as for Angel explaining things in person - he couldn't. He became CEO of W&H as a deal to protect Connor, and part of that was a big spell to cancel everybody else's memories. Angel literally couldn't explain why he is now in charge of Evil Incorporated; all he could say would be "there''s a good reason for this" and "trust me".

I think Buffy herself probably would trust him. I'm pretty sure Xander and Giles would urge her not to. So, she compromises. Sends Andrew with orders to cooperate with Angel but not trust him.

And she trusts him enough to send someone into Wolfram and Hart knowing Angel won't harm them? And if she thought he might and Andrew's some potential sacrifice then that kinda makes it all the more worse...One thing W&H are famous for is keeping their word, as long as you read the small print really, really carefully and listen to what they actually say, not what you think they're saying. They're lawyers, after all.

The most grown up and mature thing she could have done would be to let her own organisation handle it from the start. If they couldn't and needed Angel's help it makes one wonder which organisation really should have looked after Dana in the first place. Because really, I'd trust Angel looking after Dana with his track record with Faith over Andrew any day, no brainer.I'd trust Angel too. I wouldn't trust the CEO of Wolfram & Hart. And I'm assuming that at this stage Buffy's organisation is still getting organised, and may be really short of money (if 'Damage' is set pre-bank robbery). Yes, W&H probably have more resources to carry out a search for someone; that certainly doesn't mean they'd be better at looking after them once they're found.

I'm also pretty angry about the physical intimidation.You mean when Angel tried to intimidate Andrew into letting him take Dana away? I thought Andrew was surprisingly brave (for him) to stand up to Angel, even if he did have a team of Slayers to back him up.


Against Watcher's like Giles and Wes, how does Andrew even compare as anyone who should be managing slayers?I'm guessing they don't have a whole lot of choice, due to severe shortage of trained people in every category. From Season 8, it seems pretty clear to me that Buffy & Co's attitude to Andrew is "let's make as much use of him as we can, even if he is a bit pathetic." He's actually pretty intelligent and knowledgeable, even if he does filter it through his own perceptions.

[Moscow Watcher]

I mostly want to have one issue a week, not one a month. :)

As to storylines, I'd love to see more Giles and Faith. I'd love to see Spike, akthough I realise it will never happen. I'd love to have a valid explanation of Buffy's bank robbery, because "Buffy needs money for a satellite system" is lame.

[RuFio]

One issue a week would be nice, but not if the artwork looked like Angels After the Fall. I can hardly bring myself to read that anymore b/c the art is so horrible.

[vampmogs]

How do you know she didn't try? Remember, you're seeing all this from Angel's perspective; she didn't have the same privileged insight into his conversations that TV viewers got.

If she did, I don't believe she tried hard enough. I don't think it's unreasonable for Buffy to try and talk directly to Angel himself. If not in person, at least on the phone. She didn't even manage that. That's just common courtesy given how he helped in 'Chosen' and their history in general. He’d offer the same courtesy if it were her, he just would. He’s not in the business of giving up on people, apparently Buffy is now.

The thing is, Wolfram & Hart had changed some of its policies after Angel took over, but for the most part it was still business as usual. It was like Eve said - W&H is a major resource, but only if it continues to run as a profitable business. And that means representing evil clients, protecting the interests of demons, being Evil. If Buffy and the Slayers tried investigating, that's what they'd find. A few demons might complain that the new CEO of the LA branch was a bit of a wuss; but W&H hadn't suddenly converted to the side of Good.

They'd also find the employee turn over, the elimination of many divisions, the new policies set in place by Angel, many of their clients literally "axed" by Angel himself, setting up orphanages from kids who’d lost their parents to vampires ect. All of which would have at least pointed Buffy in the direction that Angel's attempting to change the place and thus, at least deserves a phone call if she isn't prepared to meet him in person and hear it from the horses mouth. I’m not saying any of Angel’s efforts truly changed the place (though they did potentially save lives) Angel eventually admits that himself, but it clearly shows to an outside observer is at least attempting to.

And as for Angel explaining things in person - he couldn't. He became CEO of W&H as a deal to protect Connor, and part of that was a big spell to cancel everybody else's memories. Angel literally couldn't explain why he is now in charge of Evil Incorporated; all he could say would be "there''s a good reason for this" and "trust me".

Buffy didn't know any of this so it's rather irrelevant for me. It doesn't effect her in any way as to why she didn't offer him the chance.

One thing W&H are famous for is keeping their word, as long as you read the small print really, really carefully and listen to what they actually say, not what you think they're saying. They're lawyers, after all.

Buffy doesn't exactly know this. It seems entirely unrealistic to even believe she'd heard of Wolfram and Hart let alone have enough information to expect what kind of pattern they'd take with her. And if she did know Wolfram and Hart she'd know that letting Angel and his team (some of whom had worked with them before and shown they were good people) run the company was not something of the norm.. going right back to the phone call to find out what the hell is going on.

I'd trust Angel too. I wouldn't trust the CEO of Wolfram & Hart. And I'm assuming that at this stage Buffy's organisation is still getting organised, and may be really short of money (if 'Damage' is set pre-bank robbery). Yes, W&H probably have more resources to carry out a search for someone; that certainly doesn't mean they'd be better at looking after them once they're found.

Well Buffy's organisation hasn't done a brilliant job in that regard though has it? Buffy wasn't even aware of problems with Simone until it was too late, or Gigi for that matter. She wasn't aware Andrew (the guy she trusted to handle Dana) "passed the buck" on Simone and handed her over to Rona either. And given the transparency in Angel's organisation Buffy must have known Angel himself was handling this, like he handled Faith and not some other division of the company.

You mean when Angel tried to intimidate Andrew into letting him take Dana away?

He said "out of the way Andrew" and attempted to walk straight past him, not once did he imply or attempt any physical domination over the guy. That's nowhere the same thing as having a group of super powered women stand behind you and basically imply, "hand her over or we'll beat the sh#t out you.. oh and thanks for you know, getting her safely in the first place."

I'm guessing they don't have a whole lot of choice, due to severe shortage of trained people in every category. From Season 8, it seems pretty clear to me that Buffy & Co's attitude to Andrew is "let's make as much use of him as we can, even if he is a bit pathetic." He's actually pretty intelligent and knowledgeable, even if he does filter it through his own perceptions.

But what kind of knowledge does he have at all when it comes to training or guiding slayers? It seems like a really irresponsible choice on Buffy's part. These are girls lives here, and Andrew is responsible for them. I'm aware it's a difficult area she's got herself in but I don't believe she couldn't find anyone else.

[XavierZane]

Would just like to take a moment to point out that it was Rona who "passed the buck" to Andrew, not the other way around. The exact quote goes something like this:

Xander: Her name's Simone Doffler. Came up with the Chicago squad till Rona shipped her over to Andrew in Italy. Thought a less urban environment might soften her "rough edges."
Buffy: Sounds like passing the buck to me.

Has nothing to do with your larger argument, of course, but the persistence of Andrew-hate continues to amaze me. Buffy's sentiment pretty much sums up the attitudes of the characters as a whole this season. They may make jokes at his expense, but no more than Xander received throughout most of the show nor more than Dawn receives currently. Despite the inclination of many to ignore it, the fact is that Xander, Buffy, Willow, and everybody else seem to like him and trust him and value him. He's either cast a Superstar spell like a certain friend of his or else he's proven his worth.

[NileQT87]

and andrew currently has one, possibly three, rogue slayers on his hands... buffy still has no idea what andrew thought was so funny about sending a fake-buffy on a mission to date the immortal... which implies that andrew manipulated one of buffy's slayers (with her own life and identity) into being used as a joke at the expense of angel and spike, buffy's former beaus.

so, andrew is currently running a house of rogue slayers and is using slayers for his personal games without buffy's full knowledge.

if anything, buffy has proven herself to be absolutely clueless about anything involving rogue slayers (including gigi and simone). why is dana any different?

and i'd trust angel with dana a LOT more than i would buffy 'i want to murder faith' summers. it's notable that giles goes to faith, not buffy, to deal with rogue slayers. the only people qualified in the 'verse, imo, to rehabilitate slayers are angel and wesley. giles kills rogue slayers and buffy has a history of advocating death to rogue slayers.

i wouldn't be surprised to learn that buffy never heard about dana and that she's probably dead.

also, we have only proven that andrew answers to giles. the only person we actually have concrete proof of distrusting angel is giles (by his personal phone call). the connection to buffy is strained by her own ignorance of the immortal mission.

as for buffy/angel communication, angel mentions in *just rewards* that buffy likely called him from europe.

Spike: Buffy! Is she...
Angel: She's okay.
Spike: Where, where is she?
Angel: Europe, last I heard from her.

angel says "from her" not "of her", which implies that there was a direct phone call. and all we know is that buffy told him that she was okay and in europe.

[stormwreath]

I don't think it's unreasonable for Buffy to try and talk directly to Angel himself. If not in person, at least on the phone.Thanks to NileQT87 for remembering that in fact, she did just that earlier on in the season. We don't know what was said, but I'm guessing from context that it wasn't a particularly satisfactory or informative conversation, and didn't lay the groundwork for much coopperation between them in future.

In fact, I'd guess part of the conversations was "Why are you working for W&H now?" and the answer was "I can't tell you, but it's for a good reason." Angel has a history of doing things "for Buffy's own good" without asking her or even informing her, after all.

They'd also find the employee turn over, the elimination of many divisions, the new policies set in place by Angel, many of their clients literally "axed" by Angel himself, setting up orphanages from kids who’d lost their parents to vampires ect. All of which would have at least pointed Buffy in the direction that Angel's attempting to change the placeLike I said; her investigation would show changes. But I think you're exaggerating the extent of these as seen by outsiders. So W&H has 'axed' a few employees? Big whoop, they used to do that all the time under the old regime too.

The whole story arc of Season 5 is that Angel thought he was doing good by trying to run W&H differently, but in the end he discovered that he wasn't. That he was becoming part of the problem; his good intentions being whittled down by one compromise after another. That would presumably be visible to outsiders before it became obvious to him - in fact, in story-telling terms the whole point of the 'Damage' and 'A Hole in the World' scenes was to show that Angel's view of his place in the world was mistaken. That in the eyes of other Champions of Good he was being corrupted and moving over to the other side. It was a wake-up call, which he ignored.

Buffy doesn't exactly know this. It seems entirely unrealistic to even believe she'd heard of Wolfram and Hart let alone have enough information to expect what kind of pattern they'd take with her.For Buffy, maybe. For Giles, absolutely not. And given that it's Giles that Angel mostly talks to, not Buffy direct, it seems clear that any decisions she takes are based on information filtered through his view of the situation.

Well Buffy's organisation hasn't done a brilliant job in that regard though has it?In 'Angel', the point was to slap Angel in the face and say "Even Buffy thinks you've made a mistake! Wake up!" In Season 8, though, it's Buffy's turn to be put in the hot seat and shown the problems with her policies...

He said "out of the way Andrew" and attempted to walk straight past him, not once did he imply or attempt any physical domination over the guy. Angel/David Boreanaz is a huge, looming kind of guy, especially compared to Andrew/Tom Lenk. He doesn't need to threaten to beat him up to physically dominate him. And Andrew's Slayers didn't physically threaten Angel either; they simply calmly walked up and stood behind him. Counterposing Angel's implied strength with greater strength, and checkmating him.

But what kind of knowledge does he have at all when it comes to training or guiding slayers?As much as anybody else in the world, and more than most.

And I can't believe I'm defending Andrew. He's always irritated me intensely. :)

[Skippcomet]

Buffy should have a serious love interest. I like the idea of a mature man, maybe ten years or so older than Buffy, a brilliant intellectual with visionary,mystical inclinations. He could be an archaeologist with intelligence connections and a touch of T.E. Lawrence.

"And on the day the words 'Marty Stu' were re-defined we sat in awe and watched."

Sorry for the snark, but honestly, one of the reasons I like Season Eight is that so far, Buffy doesn't really have "a serious love interest" -- nor do I believe that she "needs" one. But what you've described really sounds like a character who smacks of wish-fulfillment/self-insertion, wiithout any real flaws or personality to speak of.

[KingofCretins]

...which implies that andrew manipulated one of buffy's slayers (with her own life and identity) into being used as a joke at the expense of angel and spike, buffy's former beaus.

so, andrew is currently running a house of rogue slayers and is using slayers for his personal games without buffy's full knowledge.

I think this is a pretty gross mischaracterization. It's stated pretty clearly between 8.01 and 8.05 that the point of the Decoys was to be highly visible -- one to the supernatural world above, the other to the demon world below. You're making it sound like that decoy *only has her job at all* because Andrew wanted to prank Angel and Spike, which is just unsupportable by fact. Being place with the Immortal was one of probably a few very effective ways of placing a highly visible, public "Buffy", which at the same time had some "inside joke" amusement value.

And we know from 8.05 that the underground decoy was briefed about the danger of the assignment. No reason whatsoever not to think the decoy in room was giving the same information up front.

And the "house of rogue Slayers" argument seems pretty spurious as well -- we've seen Andrew instructing them, we know he's not off-message with them. He didn't turn Simone into a sociopath.

i wouldn't be surprised to learn that buffy never heard about dana and that she's probably dead.

Well, since we know textually that Buffy made the assignment to retrieve her, I feel good that she knows about her. My goodness, you are willing to cast Andrew and Giles (and who knows who else) as stone killers just to keep Buffy golden about trusting Angel.

...angel says "from her" not "of her", which implies that there was a direct phone call. and all we know is that buffy told him that she was okay and in europe.

If anything, this scene foreshadowed "Damage". Angel said "last he heard from her" in a clearly affronted tone of voice, the line pretty clearly demonstrating that he's not getting the level of communication he either A) thought he would, B) was used to getting, or C) both. He was already being held at arm's length.

Thanks to NileQT87 for remembering that in fact, she did just that earlier on in the season. We don't know what was said, but I'm guessing from context that it wasn't a particularly satisfactory or informative conversation, and didn't lay the groundwork for much coopperation between them in future.

In fact, I'd guess part of the conversations was "Why are you working for W&H now?" and the answer was "I can't tell you, but it's for a good reason." Angel has a history of doing things "for Buffy's own good" without asking her or even informing her, after all.

Like I said; her investigation would show changes. But I think you're exaggerating the extent of these as seen by outsiders. So W&H has 'axed' a few employees? Big whoop, they used to do that all the time under the old regime too.

The whole story arc of Season 5 is that Angel thought he was doing good by trying to run W&H differently, but in the end he discovered that he wasn't. That he was becoming part of the problem; his good intentions being whittled down by one compromise after another. That would presumably be visible to outsiders before it became obvious to him - in fact, in story-telling terms the whole point of the 'Damage' and 'A Hole in the World' scenes was to show that Angel's view of his place in the world was mistaken. That in the eyes of other Champions of Good he was being corrupted and moving over to the other side. It was a wake-up call, which he ignored.

All of this. The simple fact is that W&H had more "evil" street cred than Angel had "good" street cred, champion or not, and it's W&H's rep that wins out when they are on the same side.

Angel/David Boreanaz is a huge, looming kind of guy, especially compared to Andrew/Tom Lenk. He doesn't need to threaten to beat him up to physically dominate him. And Andrew's Slayers didn't physically threaten Angel either; they simply calmly walked up and stood behind him. Counterposing Angel's implied strength with greater strength, and checkmating him.

It's a good point -- Angel's posture was immediately threatening in the parking lot. He made sure to glower down at Andrew even while name-dropping Buffy. Andrew wasn't overtly threatening at all. If anything, even while making his show of force, he was mildly apologetic, because it was an embarrassing situation for Angel to find out how things stood that way and he appreciated that fact.

[XavierZane]

and andrew currently has one, possibly three, rogue slayers on his hands... buffy still has no idea what andrew thought was so funny about sending a fake-buffy on a mission to date the immortal... which implies that andrew manipulated one of buffy's slayers (with her own life and identity) into being used as a joke at the expense of angel and spike, buffy's former beaus.


so, andrew is currently running a house of rogue slayers and is using slayers for his personal games without buffy's full knowledge.

He has two. One is Simone, who had rogue inclinations before ever meeting Andrew. In fact, she was sent to Andrew specifically because she was a problem Slayer. Not to Vi, not to Wood or Faith in Cleveland, not to Willow and Kennedy, not to Buffy and Xander, but to Andrew. I don't know what that implies to you, but to me it implies that he's gained a bit of a reputation for being able to deal with rogues with violent tendencies. Hmmm...where could he have gotten that reputation? The other slayer that came from Andrew is unknown to us, but the fact remains that out of anywhere from a dozen to 100 slayers that Andrew has in his squad Simone could only tempt one. Hardly a house of rogue slayers.

As for the Rome scene (circa the only time we've actually seen it): he's managed to create a situation wherein not only is the slayer he chose and vetted doing her primary job (i.e. keeping a high profile in case anyone decides to attack 'Buffy Summers'), but she's also insinuated herself in the inner circle of someone who is apparently one of the titans of the mystical world, an unpredictable loose canon whose power, origins, and creed has always been a mystery. I would bet that they are all less a mystery now. On top of that (which is pretty impressive by itself) there's a third layer, which is that this scenario that he's created could be used to manipulate another unknown titan, the current CEO of Wolfram and Hart, Angel, (and his unexpectedly alive and highly suspicious ally William the Bloody). On top of all that, there's the fourth level, which is this: that it's frakking hilarious! I mean, seriously, Angel almost cries.

[vampmogs]

In fact, I'd guess part of the conversations was "Why are you working for W&H now?" and the answer was "I can't tell you, but it's for a good reason." Angel has a history of doing things "for Buffy's own good" without asking her or even informing her, after all.

I think if it had went like that Angel wouldn't have been surprised about Buffy's orders in 'Damage.' He seemed quite confident when he said he'd clear it with her.

Like I said; her investigation would show changes. But I think you're exaggerating the extent of these as seen by outsiders. So W&H has 'axed' a few employees? Big whoop, they used to do that all the time under the old regime too.

Any real investigation, which Angel deserved from Buffy, would have shown all these changes and why these changes were being made. It was common news in the demon world that Angel was changing Wolfram and Hart, hence no one wanting to come to the Halloween party because every one thought it was a trap. If Buffy took the time to investigate this she would have known that Angel was *trying* to change things. He wasn’t successful but “trying” being the operative word here, meaning he isn’t evil.

The whole story arc of Season 5 is that Angel thought he was doing good by trying to run W&H differently, but in the end he discovered that he wasn't. That he was becoming part of the problem; his good intentions being whittled down by one compromise after another. That would presumably be visible to outsiders before it became obvious to him - in fact, in story-telling terms the whole point of the 'Damage' and 'A Hole in the World' scenes was to show that Angel's view of his place in the world was mistaken. That in the eyes of other Champions of Good he was being corrupted and moving over to the other side. It was a wake-up call, which he ignored.

And I agree, but the fact people would be able to see that he was attempting to make changes would tell anyone, like Buffy, that's he's not corrupted or Angelus or now evil. It'd tell her that he's still Angel who's made a bad decision and needs her help. I think she'd owe him that after what he's done for her in the past and in 'Chosen.' That’s my main problem in a nutshell here. That it’s considered “grown up” for Buffy to simply abandon her former allies, double cross them, as far as we know not even bother to look into the story let alone appear there herself. She owes people who have done huge favours for her in the past more than that, Angel *deserved* some effort from Buffy. I think the whole situation made Angel look far better because when he thinks Buffy is in trouble later in the season, despite ‘Damage’ he’s on a plane and on his way to make sure she’s ok.

For Buffy, maybe. For Giles, absolutely not. And given that it's Giles that Angel mostly talks to, not Buffy direct, it seems clear that any decisions she takes are based on information filtered through his view of the situation.

I don't find it likely Buffy would rely on Giles filtered information only. Not after how overly suspicious she was of Giles when it came to Spike's chip, and not when 'No Future For You' and even 'The Long Way Home' made it clear she hadn't spoken to Giles in a while.

Angel/David Boreanaz is a huge, looming kind of guy, especially compared to Andrew/Tom Lenk. He doesn't need to threaten to beat him up to physically dominate him. And Andrew's Slayers didn't physically threaten Angel either; they simply calmly walked up and stood behind him. Counterposing Angel's implied strength with greater strength, and checkmating him.

Andrew said that he's taking her "one way or another." It's pretty clear what he meant by that. Being a big guy in general like Angel is, doesn't mean he's attempting to physically dominate anyone he's just bigger and naturally more physically dominant.

I still don’t see how it could be considered a good thing that Buffy tricks Angel into doing her work for her then double crosses him at the end. Fine she doesn’t trust him, but make it clear from the start, don’t manipulate people like that, especially people who you have such a personal connection with. That's not the Buffy I'm proud of I gotta say, it's certainly not the Buffy from 'Amends' who did anything in her power to try and save someone. A girl far more admirable and far more caring than anything she displayed here when she doesn't give a toss wether or not someone she cares deeply for is being corrupted or not.

[Koos]

He has two. One is Simone, who had rogue inclinations before ever meeting Andrew. In fact, she was sent to Andrew specifically because she was a problem Slayer.

Andrew has none. He's been called back to the HQ after the incident with Simone.

Not to Vi, not to Wood or Faith in Cleveland, not to Willow and Kennedy, not to Buffy and Xander, but to Andrew. I don't know what that implies to you, but to me it implies that he's gained a bit of a reputation for being able to deal with rogues with violent tendencies.

To me it implies that those involved in this decision, at least Rona, has no knowledge of humans. But the decision wasn't particulary made because of Andrew. It was because of Chigaco: 'Thought a less urban environment might soften her “rough edges”.'

The Slayers might like Andrew and his personality might have an softened effect on them, but they don't take him seriously.
For example in his speech about Dracula. Or Xander's remark: tell him ten best. Not ten best dressed. we don't want another orvieto.


As for the Rome scene (circa the only time we've actually seen it): he's managed to create a situation wherein not only is the slayer he chose and vetted doing her primary job (i.e. keeping a high profile in case anyone decides to attack 'Buffy Summers'), but she's also insinuated herself in the inner circle of someone who is apparently one of the titans of the mystical world, an unpredictable loose canon whose power, origins, and creed has always been a mystery. I would bet that they are all less a mystery now.

There's no evidence whatsoever that it was Andrew's idea let alone that he had managed this all. As far I can see it, it was instructed and ordered by Rona and perhaps with the aid of Giles or maybe even Xander. Andrew just took the oppertunity to have some fun with Spike and Angel.


On top of that (which is pretty impressive by itself) there's a third layer, which is that this scenario that he's created could be used to manipulate another unknown titan, the current CEO of Wolfram and Hart, Angel, (and his unexpectedly alive and highly suspicious ally William the Bloody). On top of all that, there's the fourth level, which is this: that it's frakking hilarious! I mean, seriously, Angel almost cries.

That was impressive. But again we don't know whose plan it was, who ordered Andrew, etc. But nonetheless, the way Andrew did it, was impressive. Andrew wasn't taken seriously by Angel and that was to Andrew's advantage.

IThat it’s considered “grown up” for Buffy to simply abandon her former allies, double cross them, as far as we know not even bother to look into the story let alone appear there herself. She owes people who have done huge favours for her in the past more than that, Angel *deserved* some effort from Buffy. I think the whole situation made Angel look far better because when he thinks Buffy is in trouble later in the season, despite ‘Damage’ he’s on a plane and on his way to make sure she’s ok.

Not only disagree I with this. One important reason, Buffy supporting or helping Angel could and would be seen as involving herself with W&H. The leader of the Slayers involving with W&H is not only a bad image it can have severe consequences. I can see a scenario coming up where W&H tries to get Willow (or better: DarkWillow) under contract. No, it is better for Buffy and with her also her friends and the whole Slayer organisation to stay away for W&H as far as possible. I believe or I hope that Angel understands this.

But I also think it is unfair. On the same token one can say: why did Angel joing W&H instead of helping Buffy building a new council and finding all the Slayers? Exactly on the moment that Buffy needs him the most, he is gone and unavailable.

[vampmogs]

Not only disagree I with this. One important reason, Buffy supporting or helping Angel could and would be seen as involving herself with W&H.

How so? If Buffy's trying to help Angel realise his mistake of joining Wolfram and Hart and instead get him back on track it'd hardly be seen as her working with them?

The leader of the Slayers involving with W&H is not only a bad image it can have severe consequences.

If Buffy was worried about her image she wouldn't have robbed banks.

I can see a scenario coming up where W&H tries to get Willow (or better: DarkWillow) under contract. No, it is better for Buffy and with her also her friends and the whole Slayer organisation to stay away for W&H as far as possible. I believe or I hope that Angel understands this.

Mmm.. I guess I'd just find it more admirable if she wasn't afraid to get her hands dirty and attempt to help someone out, possibly 'rehabilitate' them if you will, when they've done so much for her in the past. Angel wasn't afraid to get in harms way, from either Buffy or Wolfram and Hart for Faith or many other people he's saved. Buffy wasn't afraid to get in the First's way to help Angel in 'Amends'

But I also think it is unfair. On the same token one can say: why did Angel joing W&H instead of helping Buffy building a new council and finding all the Slayers? Exactly on the moment that Buffy needs him the most, he is gone and unavailable.

Ah because he hadn't even been informed about the new slayers until 'Damage'? The exact moment Buffy needed him the most Angel did come, he not only brought the amulet to her, but he offered to risk his life and fight by her side and set up a second front for her in 'Chosen.' When he believes she's in danger in 'The Girl In Question' he races off to Italy to save her, when she's grieving over her mother he's there despite all his problems in LA to stay "as long as she needs." When Doyle has a vision of her in trouble Angel is there the next day, and saves her life against the Indian spirit in 'Pangs.' That's my whole problem in a nutshell, Angel has been there, countless times when Buffy needed him the most, not even taking into account the whole reason he came to Sunnydale in the first place was because he wanted to help her, and yet she doesn't want to what? get her hands dirty when he needs some guidance?

[Koos]

How so? If Buffy's trying to help Angel realise his mistake of joining Wolfram and Hart and instead get him back on track it'd hardly be seen as her working with them?

Angel's mind should never have been on joining W&H, because his mind should have been on giving Buffy the help she needed. But apparently she wasn't on his mind.

If Buffy was worried about her image she wouldn't have robbed banks.

While that is true, it is not comparable with getting herself involved with an evil organisation like W&H.



Mmm.. I guess I'd just find it more admirable if she wasn't afraid to get her hands dirty and attempt to help someone out, possibly 'rehabilitate' them if you will, when they've done so much for her in the past. Angel wasn't afraid to get in harms way, from either Buffy or Wolfram and Hart for Faith or many other people he's saved. Buffy wasn't afraid to get in the First's way to help Angel in 'Amends'

While it is admirable if Buffy would help someone out, I find it so much more admirable if the person who needed the help wouldn't have gotten himself in problems in the first place.
This doesn't only hold true for Angel in this case, but in general. I think that should be praised a bit more.
Instead that Angel helped Buffy he only brought Buffy in more trouble by having he need to make a choice because he so much needed to join W&H.



Ah because he hadn't even been informed about the new slayers until 'Damage'? The exact moment Buffy needed him the most Angel did come, he not only brought the amulet to her, but he offered to risk his life and fight by her side and set up a second front for her in 'Chosen.'

While I loath the thought that Angel ripped the other characters of a chance of being the heroes of their own show, I have to say that that is absolutely true. Though I also have to say that the amulet happened to be brought to him, it was not something he went after himself. It just happened and he acted as he should.


When he believes she's in danger in 'The Girl In Question' he races off to Italy to save her, when she's grieving over her mother he's there despite all his problems in LA to stay "as long as she needs." When Doyle has a vision of her in trouble Angel is there the next day, and saves her life against the Indian spirit in 'Pangs.' That's my whole problem in a nutshell, Angel has been there, countless times when Buffy needed him the most, not even taking into account the whole reason he came to Sunnydale in the first place was because he wanted to help her, and yet she doesn't want to what? get her hands dirty when he needs some guidance?

Your first arguments are all true. Except for the last one. The first thing Angel did when he came to Sunnydale was not to help her, but to seduce her and to stalk her. I have no praise for that in any kind of way. It was the cause of all the shit she went true in S2. He came only for his own needs. He didn't even thought Buffy could defeat the Master.

Angel has his own life, his own team and his own mission. So does Buffy have. Sometimes Angel needs help and sometime Buffy does. But the difference is that Buffy is chosen and Angel is self-chosen. Angel can look for his own missions and his own problems. He can choose his cases and he can make his own decisions. Buffy, being the chosen one, can't. Buffy is the one who is responsible. She is the one with the burden. Not Angel. Buffy.

Of course Angel, as a father, had a good reason for joining W&H. Which makes the choice less of a choice. But Buffy hadn't got a choice at all. She is responsible for nearly two Slayers. And Buffy can not allow herself to get involved with W&H. She simply can't.

[Nina]

Angel's mind should never have been on joining W&H, because his mind should have been on giving Buffy the help she needed. But apparently she wasn't on his mind.
Angel took over W&H before Buffy ever thought about creating 2000 slayers. And when he took over W&H, his son was on his mind, who is more important than an ex who you barely see or talk to. Besides, when was the last time Buffy did anything for Angel? ... Graduation Day. On the other side, Angel did a lot for her since season 3. If one of the two should return a favor, it's Buffy.

While that is true, it is not comparable with getting herself involved with an evil organisation like W&H.
In that case, she should've dealed with Dana herself. Be honest and tell Angel that she can't be involved with W&H. Instead she used Angel (knowing that he would do the right thing) and showed not a little bit of compassion.


While it is admirable if Buffy would help someone out, I find it so much more admirable if the person who needed the help wouldn't have gotten himself in problems in the first place.
This doesn't only hold true for Angel in this case, but in general. I think that should be praised a bit more.
Instead that Angel helped Buffy he only brought Buffy in more trouble by having he need to make a choice because he so much needed to join W&H.
Why did she let Angel hunt Dana down? Dana was her problem, her fault. But she lets Angel deal with it. Like I said, if W&H is such a big problem for her ... than keep them out and be honest. Don't play dirty games with somebody who saved you so many times.

Angel got himself into trouble because he was emotional blackmailed. Angel knows about his problems and is realistic about the situation. Why kick him while he is down? How is that helpful? Why was that needed?

While I loath the thought that Angel ripped the other characters of a chance of being the heroes of their own show, I have to say that that is absolutely true. Though I also have to say that the amulet happened to be brought to him, it was not something he went after himself. It just happened and he acted as he should.
The ironic thing is that Angel only got the amulet because he made the deal with W&H. But I agree about the idiotic deux ex machina brought over from another show, can I kick the person came with that idea?

Your first arguments are all true. Except for the last one. The first thing Angel did when he came to Sunnydale was not to help her, but to seduce her and to stalk her. I have no praise for that in any kind of way. It was the cause of all the shit she went true in S2. He came only for his own needs. He didn't even thought Buffy could defeat the Master.
Angel never planned to seduce her in season 1, it just happened. I'm not happy with the weird storytelling in season 1 and the change of Angel's character every episode. But we saw in flashbacks that he tried to help her, her situation inspired him ... and he wanted to be helpful, not to become her boyfriend.

Angel has his own life, his own team and his own mission. So does Buffy have. Sometimes Angel needs help and sometime Buffy does. But the difference is that Buffy is chosen and Angel is self-chosen. Angel can look for his own missions and his own problems. He can choose his cases and he can make his own decisions. Buffy, being the chosen one, can't. Buffy is the one who is responsible. She is the one with the burden. Not Angel. Buffy.
Angel is chosen by the Powers that Be, Cordelia has every time a vision and he needs to do whatever the PTB wants. Angel has another burden, but still a burden and not one that is easier than Buffy's burden. Every character is responsible in their own way, and it's not true that only Buffy has the weight of the world on her shoulders. Every 'champion' has that same burden, and Angel is one of them.

[stormwreath]

Besides, when was the last time Buffy did anything for Angel? ... Graduation Day. 'Sanctuary', actually. Buffy heard that a homicidal Faith had been seen in Los Angeles, and came to help Angel. It wasn't her fault that when she arrived, she discovered that Angel had already contacted Faith and was punishing her with a severe cuddling.

Arguably also 'Orpheus', although that was a case of her not objecting to Willow going rather than helping him directly herself. There was also 'Harsh Light of Day' when she asked Oz to take the Gem of Amara to Angel.


As for the amulet, that wasn't Angel being all noble and helpful for Buffy. It was Wolfram & Hart scattering temptations in his path to get him to join them. Power, influence, wealth, necrotinted glass, an opportunity to be Buffy's shining knight in armour once again, and giving his son a new life. Remember how jealous and petty Angel was when he discovered that Buffy hadn't been sitting there all hopeful and expectant those last three years waiting for him to arrive, but had actually moved on with her life? He was helping her out, sure, but I think there was just a little bit of ego gratification going on there as well...

[XavierZane]

Andrew has none. He's been called back to the HQ after the incident with Simone.


He got called in, sure - maybe to talk about Simone, maybe not. They never go into why he was there. And then they all got sidetracked and he was brought along to Tokyo. And now he's no longer in Scotland as of the first two issues of ToYL. I haven't seen him, at least, and I usually notice the guy. All evidence points to him going back to Italy and continuing business as usual.


To me it implies that those involved in this decision, at least Rona, has no knowledge of humans. But the decision wasn't particulary made because of Andrew. It was because of Chigaco: 'Thought a less urban environment might soften her “rough edges”.'

The Highlands of Scotland are pretty not urban, last time I was there anyway. Which was last summer. Why not send her there? Seems to be the smart thing to do, what with Buffy and Xander being in charge of the entire operation. Unless...well, I've already said it once.

The Slayers might like Andrew and his personality might have an softened effect on them, but they don't take him seriously.
For example in his speech about Dracula. Or Xander's remark: tell him ten best. Not ten best dressed. we don't want another orvieto.

I don't think anybody who dresses up as Dracula to give a speech about Dracula is looking to be taken seriously. It's not his style. As long as the people he's talking to pay attention to his lessons, I doubt he cares what they think of him. And, every time we've seen him with Slayers they have in fact been paying rapt attention to him, even when he's talking about dressing up as Lando Calrissian. When he gives his lecture about Dracula one of the Slayers, who is part of the Scotland squad, not his own, seems to remember every lecture of his that she's heard. And can summarize her (least) favorites!

As for Orvieto - considering that Xander is joking about it while entrusting Andrew to take care of what sounds to be a pretty tricky situation, I don't think it's the tragedy that everyone is imagining.



There's no evidence whatsoever that it was Andrew's idea let alone that he had managed this all. As far I can see it, it was instructed and ordered by Rona and perhaps with the aid of Giles or maybe even Xander. Andrew just took the oppertunity to have some fun with Spike and Angel.

I don't think Rona was much involved (where'd she come from?), but Xander or Giles I could possible see. I'll agree that we have scant evidence about the entire situation. We have no idea that it was Andrew's idea let alone that he managed it all. Nor do we have any idea that it wasn't Andrew's idea and that he didn't manage it all. Here's what we do know:

-we get a glimpse of how a Decoy!Buffy is chosen in The Chain. We don't know if the girl is chosen from above or if she is chosen by her squad leader, but from what we see in the Chain it seems that she's informed of the situation and prepared solely by the squad leader. In that case Rona, in the case of the Roman 'Buffy' Andrew.
-Given the autonomy of the squads exhibited thus far in the season, given the fact that Buffy knew almost nothing about either Slayer, and given that she credited Andrew specifically with coming up with the Roman Decoy dating the Immortal it doesn't seem much of a stretch to think that the entire situation is handled by the squad leader. Still, that's not a given, and I'll admit that.
-My point is this: if he has been given orders, which I'll admit as readily as anyone is possible, he's still being entrusted to carry them out, with what appears to be very little oversight. And he's doing a good job.

My desire has never been to paint Andrew as some superbadass perfect Watcher, who doesn't take orders from anyone, awes everyone him with his brilliance, and never fails at anything. Just to try to remove this stigma around him that persists - that he's as a rule completely incompetent and disliked by everyone around him.

[Koos]

Angel took over W&H before Buffy ever thought about creating 2000 slayers.

I guess I was under the false impression that Angel took over W&H post S7. But was not the point. The point was that Angel also could have helped Buffy instead of the other way around.

While that is true, it is not comparable with getting herself involved with an evil organisation like W&H.
In that case, she should've dealed with Dana herself. Be honest and tell Angel that she can't be involved with W&H. Instead she used Angel (knowing that he would do the right thing) and showed not a little bit of compassion. [/quote]

We still have no true evidence that Buffy was behind that. If she was, than I agree with you and she was really wrong about this and she was indeed playing dirty games.


Angel never planned to seduce her in season 1, it just happened.

I'm sorry, but I disagree. The seducing didn't just happen. Angel knew way too well what he was doing.


I'm not happy with the weird storytelling in season 1 and the change of Angel's character every episode. But we saw in flashbacks that he tried to help her, her situation inspired him ... and he wanted to be helpful, not to become her boyfriend.

We saw flashbacks of this, Angel seeing Buffy before he met her, at the end of S2 in an sort of attempt to retcon it. But that makes it worse, because he still did what he did in S1.


Angel is chosen by the Powers that Be, Cordelia has every time a vision and he needs to do whatever the PTB wants. Angel has another burden, but still a burden and not one that is easier than Buffy's burden. Every character is responsible in their own way, and it's not true that only Buffy has the weight of the world on her shoulders. Every 'champion' has that same burden, and Angel is one of them.

You have a very good point here. You don't think there's a kind hiarchy among the champions. And it brings up the question of what is a champion. And do only champion's have that same burden?


The Highlands of Scotland are pretty not urban, last time I was there anyway. Which was last summer. Why not send her there? Seems to be the smart thing to do, what with Buffy and Xander being in charge of the entire operation. Unless...well, I've already said it once.

From issue 11:
XANDER: Her name’s Simone Doffler. Came up with the Chicago squad till Rona shipped her over to Andrew in Italy. Thought a less urban environment might soften her “rough edges”.

That's why Rona is involved. She was also involved with the other DecoyBuffy on her mission in issue 5.

Anyway, Simone was send to Italy, not to the Highlands of Scotland.

Also note the following quote from the same scene in issue 11:
This is bad for us, Buffy. Andrew’s wiccans wiped the guards’ memories, but anybody finds out a Slayer’s packing boom-sticks – forget about what she’s planning to *use* them for – and your Twilight bunch is gonna go ape-feces.

It's not only one other Slayer who was involved also Andrew's wiccans.


-Given the autonomy of the squads exhibited thus far in the season, given the fact that Buffy knew almost nothing about either Slayer, and given that she credited Andrew specifically with coming up with the Roman Decoy dating the Immortal. it doesn't seem much of a stretch to think that the entire situation is handled by the squad leader. Still, that's not a given, and I'll admit that.


I'd say the DecoySlayer was chosen by a select group of people who came up with the plan and made the decision to carry it out. Not by the squadleader. And don't ask me why, but Rona is involved somehow. I also believe Giles is.


My desire has never been to paint Andrew as some superbadass perfect Watcher, who doesn't take orders from anyone, awes everyone him with his brilliance, and never fails at anything. Just to try to remove this stigma around him that persists - that he's as a rule completely incompetent and disliked by everyone around him.

He's not entirely incompetent and he's not disliked by everybody around him. My problem with him is that he's untrustworthy. He lives too much in a fantasy world to be trusted by the Scoobies with such missions. Also I find it hard to believe that he would be able to lead a squad of Slayers all by himself. Would you listen to someone who is living in his own fantasyworld? Even with the help, orders and support from the Scoobies it is hard to believe. Andrew can have his worth, but not with such a task.

[Nina]

'Sanctuary', actually. Buffy heard that a homicidal Faith had been seen in Los Angeles, and came to help Angel. It wasn't her fault that when she arrived, she discovered that Angel had already contacted Faith and was punishing her with a severe cuddling.

Arguably also 'Orpheus', although that was a case of her not objecting to Willow going rather than helping him directly herself. There was also 'Harsh Light of Day' when she asked Oz to take the Gem of Amara to Angel.
Okay, Sanctuary ... still a long time ago. Orpheus I see as a Willow/Faith thing, Buffy didn't knew what was going on until after they came back.


As for the amulet, that wasn't Angel being all noble and helpful for Buffy. It was Wolfram & Hart scattering temptations in his path to get him to join them. Power, influence, wealth, necrotinted glass, an opportunity to be Buffy's shining knight in armour once again, and giving his son a new life. Remember how jealous and petty Angel was when he discovered that Buffy hadn't been sitting there all hopeful and expectant those last three years waiting for him to arrive, but had actually moved on with her life? He was helping her out, sure, but I think there was just a little bit of ego gratification going on there as well...
I agree that Angel wanted to be the white knight. I don't agree that Angel was disappointed that Buffy moved on, he knew that already ... he did as well. I think that it was the Spike thing that bothered him ... that doesn't change his stupid behavior of course.


I guess I was under the false impression that Angel took over W&H post S7. But was not the point. The point was that Angel also could have helped Buffy instead of the other way around.
I still have trouble finding out when Angel found out about the many slayers. When he found out that Dana was a slayer, he was calm about it. But his whole team was like; WTF?, about the many slayers. I go with the idea that W&H knew what happened (because of all their scources), and Spike would probably talk about it ... in the case that Angel didn't hear it when he also heard that Buffy was in Europe ... which is a weird thing as well. He knows that she is in Europe ... that's all? Maybe he got a card with a few words on it?

But in the case he knew, he could've helped ... or give a hugh amount of money. But if he found out about their work in 'Destiny', I don't see why Angel should've helped them ... they were clearly not interested in any kind of help from him.

We still have no true evidence that Buffy was behind that. If she was, than I agree with you and she was really wrong about this and she was indeed playing dirty games.
But there is still one person in their camp who did it, of course if it's Buffy ... it's worse because of her history with Angel. But still, if was Giles or Andrew, it's still dirty.

I'm sorry, but I disagree. The seducing didn't just happen. Angel knew way too well what he was doing.
I guess that we have to agree to disagree about this. :)

You have a very good point here. You don't think there's a kind hiarchy among the champions. And it brings up the question of what is a champion. And do only champion's have that same burden?
Maybe I will open a topic about this ... you have some interesting questions there.

[KingofCretins]

We're more than a little bit off the thread at this point, unless the secret message is "we want Season 8 or Season 9 to include multiple arcs having Buffy and Angel rehash old and settled storylines".

That said, I should point out, without opining on whether Angel wanted to "seduce" Buffy or not, he very obviously *was* there to help -- it became a running joke at his expense that all he did was show up to tell her about great danger, and he did this no fewer than three times in Season 1, got the Codex for Giles, and so on.

I'd like to see a real discussion, or at least real introspection by either or both characters, about any possible romance between Buffy and Xander. If we don't get one, then the dream in 8.02 really just was a pretty mean-spirited tease of the Buffy/Xander fans.

I'd like for Faith and Buffy's next meeting to include one more genuine reconciliation -- they were so close to getting it in Season 7, and they weren't on opposite sides in "No Future For You", really, it was just a very confused situation.

[Roses-r-Red]

I'd like for Faith and Buffy's next meeting to include one more genuine reconciliation -- they were so close to getting it in Season 7, and they weren't on opposite sides in "No Future For You", really, it was just a very confused situation.

I want this to happen, too. I was actually a little surprise at Faith and Buffy's characterization in that arc. I thought her and Buffy had come to an understanding at the end of S7, not friendship, but understanding. I get that Buffy didn't know what was going on but her quick judgment and Faith's reaction in her mental monologue seemed to erase anything that happened in S7 between the two of them. Maybe we're missing something that happened between the two seasons?

[stormwreath]

I thought her and Buffy had come to an understanding at the end of S7, not friendship, but understanding. Faith appeared in five episodes. The first time she and Buffy met in 'Dirty Girls', Buffy punched her in the face. Buffy punched her again in 'Empty Places', actually knocking her to the ground. In 'Touched', it's Spike's turn to beat Faith up, but when he tells Buffy about it she grins in delight. 'End of Days' is actually a surprise because Buffy doesn't hit Faith at all, although she does complain about the "weird mixed signals" she's getting from her.

So yeah, Buffy and Faith do come to an understanding, at the very end of the season. It's the sort of understanding that means "I'll stop punching you in the face almost every time I see you." :twak:

And, of course if you look at what actually happens in 'No Future' - Buffy reacts violently to being grappled and thrown out of a window; she doesn't strike the first blow. And once Faith lets her up from under the water, Buffy doesn't re-start the fight... she calms down and starts talking to Faith and asking her what's happening in a fairly civilised fashion. Unfortunately, it's just at that point that Willow teleports her out of there, and Buffy never hears Faith's explanation of why she was trying to save the life of a murderer.

[Michael]

Actually Buffy nearly started a fight with Faith when they first met, which was in Faith,Hope and Trick. But the appearance of vampires made them fight side by side, and it was at this point that Buffy noticed Faith beating up on a vampire way beyond what was needed to get the job done.

Their first real fist fight was in Revelations when Buffy had to stop Faith from killing Angel. Later Faith moved over to the Mayor's side, and she made another attempt on Angel and nearly succeeded. In Graduation 1 Buffy tried to kill Faith, but put her in a coma. Later in Season Four, Faith came back to steal Buffy's body and her life in This Years Girl and Who Are You?-and came close to success .When Faith returns in Season Seven, this time as a friend, Buffy gives her a punch on the kisser on two occasions--before they become reconciled.

In No Future For You Faith was trying to help Buffy but it looked as though she was saving Gigi. Buffy was reacting in an understandable fashion in a confused situation.

One man could have cleared up the confusion but he refused to do so.

I would like to see Faith leave Giles and get together with Buffy. She needs a kind of Validation Certificate from Buffy so that she can begin to discover who she really is. Until now she has defined herself almost entirely in terms of Buffy, either as an anti-Buffy, or an imitation Buffy. But Buffy herself needs to understand the position. Giles's silence on the question is another nail in the coffin of his relationship with Buffy.

Despite that happened later it is interesting to remember that Buffy was the first one to threaten violence when Faith had been,up to that point, friendly and amusing. Buffy liked being the one and only Slayer, is what I imagine. Little did she know.

[Thomas]

After Twilight reveals his identity, I want an arc with flashbacks showing what went down in between 'Chosen' and 'The Long Way Home.' Flashbacks involving: Buffy, Xander, Willow, and Twilight. Each one getting their own issue, but all containing to the one arc.

[vampmogs]

'Sanctuary', actually. Buffy heard that a homicidal Faith had been seen in Los Angeles, and came to help Angel. It wasn't her fault that when she arrived, she discovered that Angel had already contacted Faith and was punishing her with a severe cuddling.

Doesn't this more or less be proven false when Angel tells Buffy she was looking for vengeance and Buffy says "I have a right to it." Angel was right when he tells Buffy that she came because she wanted pay back on Faith and that he's in trouble everyday.


I would like to see Faith leave Giles and get together with Buffy.

I most certainly don't. Faith and Giles are working as equal partners now, looking for slayers and trying to rehabilitate them. It's what they agreed on at the end of 'No Future For You.' Buffy on the other hand, I'm not so sure about right now.

[stormwreath]

Actually Buffy nearly started a fight with Faith when they first met, which was in Faith,Hope and Trick. Sorry, I wasn't clear - when I talked about "Faith appeared in five episodes" I was only talking about Season 7.

In 60% of the episodes she appeared in that season, Faith was either punched by Buffy, or punched by Spike with Buffy's approval. If you include verbal criticism and condemnation as well as physical conflict, Buffy or Spike attacked Faith in 80% of the episodes.

(And for the record, I do think Buffy was being unreasonable and wrong. But after what happened in Season 4, it's clear that Buffy hated Faith. Their 'reconciliation' was a grudging recognition that they're on the same side now, not more.)

[vampmogs]

I agree, Buffy and Faith were coming to a good place in season seven but in no way shape or form was their relationship completely mended and patched up. That seems to be the impression a lot of people got, which is why they were so surprised by Buffy's attitude towards Faith in 'No Future For You.' I'm for one, happy that it wasn't all fine and dandy. Five episodes, most of which weren't even centred heavily on the relationship is nowhere near enough time to give a substantial and hefty conclusion to such a complicated relationship, arguably one of if not the most complicated relationship, of Buffy's life.

Leaving aside for a moment that Buffy was teleported into an ambush then hurled out of a window by Faith, Buffy wasn’t just the attacker here. I’ve seen claims that it was out of character for Buffy to react in this way towards Faith given how their relationship was in season seven. I couldn’t disagree more, nor Joss or Vaughn ignored their growth it’s made quite clear that before their confrontation Buffy had believed Faith to have changed. When they fall into the pool Buffy states “I can’t believe I thought you’d changed!” This tells us everything about Buffy’s mindset in this scene. She thought Faith had done a turn around and grown, only to be, in her eyes, attacked and betrayed by Faith. Take into account that she’d thought Faith had made positive changes before only to have been betrayed by the girl and it’s very understandable Buffy would be so vicious in her spat with Faith, in her eyes she’s just been disappointed again.

Buffy wasn't the only girl to be throwing punches in that scene. When Faith tells Buffy to listen for a moment and she's not bad, she follows this by a backhand to Buffy's face. This caused Buffy to retaliate back shouting "Funny way of showing it!" She's right, Faith could have handled the situation better as well, she didn't need to violently attack Buffy in that pool. And King is right, when Faith lets Buffy out of the water Buffy calms down and begins to ask Faith what is going on before she's teleported away, a sign Buffy was starting to believe her or at least give her the chance to explain.

[MaverickKing]

- MORE Faith.
- MORE Giles.
- NO MORE DARK WILLOW (although the twist was kinda nifty)
- Oz
- Less gimmicky arcs
- TELL US WHO TWILIGHT IS AL-FRICKIN-READY!
- Oh yeah, and a new love interest for Buffy (I was okay with Satsu, but a man might be nice).
- And as for the betrayer who will leave Buffy for dead... my money's on it being DAWN

[RuFio]

Sorry, but I can't see buffy's sister leaving her for dead.

[allthings]

I want to see:

* Buffy and Willow being close again and less of this oddness between them
* Kennedy dead (for good)
* Dawn return to human form and kick as much ass as she has been doing
* More Faith and Giles, but to work with Buffy and Co
* Warren dead (for good)
* Twilight to be Hank Summers ( I have daddy issues haha)

[XavierZane]

-More Andrew
-Buffy/Xander action. I would love it if Buffy had unrequited feelings for Xander. It would be a nice inversion of their dynamic.
-I want Giles to stay away. He and Faith can drop by every once in a while, and maybe show up for the big finish, but for him to settle back into a role with Buffy seems like a regression.
-More Kennedy.
-More Warren. He's an amazing villain. No shades of gray like Twilight, Willow, or even Amy, just straight up skinless villainy. Destructive, belligerent ("Look, Copperhead,"), and eeeevil.
-I would get dizzy with happiness if they managed to fit in a Pike appearance. Maybe in a Pre-Sunnydale flashback? Please?

[Enisy]

I want...

- More Giles and Faith
- Less Willow (and less Superman Willow, in both an omnipotent and a flying capacity)
- Buffy to learn that Spike's alive
- A Warren-Andrew confrontation
- A flashback to the year between Chosen and The Long Way Home
- Dracula back
- Xander/Dawn
- Buffy to stop moping and isolating herself, and work on her various epiphanies in Grave, Conversations with Dead People and Touched
- Twilight to be Riley (predictable, but potentially packing an emotional punch)
- To meet the Immortal, just out of curiosity

Might add more later.

[vampmogs]

I want....

-Buffy's visit back to High school *not* to make her more depressed she isn't as happy and close to her friends, but to inspire her to find that again.

-I want to see some good old fashioned Cordelia Chase snark

-I want Buffy to stick by one of her epiphanies, as Enisy states, she's had many. Instead of just forgetting about them, either work on the ones she's already had or give her a new one this season but make her stick to it!

-Kennedy jealousy over Oz's return :p

-Warren killing Andrew, I think it’d be very upsetting and shocking

-A reconciliation between Buffy & Giles

-A really sweet Xander/Willow scene

- More Satsu

- Follow up on 'Damage' to see where Buffy's head was at exactly.

- Find out wether or not Buffy knows Spike is alive or not

- Buffy/Xander... doubt this one's a chance though :lol:

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I want....

-Warren killing Andrew, I think it’d be very upsetting and shocking

Noooo! That would break my heart. Though, maybe that would be the point. :)

[Slayer+]

Willow lose her new snippy attitude.

An emphasis on undiscovered Slayers and Slayers working with other squads.

A more grounded season. Season eight is - literally - all over the place! It spans time and space. It's a little too much all at once.

I didn't want Buffy to meet Fray. Ever.

More of Buffy's compound.

No more treating the Slayers as canon-fodder/red shirts. So many die each issue. Soon there won't be many left.

Buffy not whining about being alone anymore. It's old. New topic please?

Buffy and Dawn getting along. Again, old news.

Buffy and Satsu never happening again.

No apocalypse at the end of the 'season'. It's tired!

[XavierZane]

-More internal monologue. It's one of the most important advantages of this medium, and it's being neglected. Every issue could be as intimate as The Chain or No Future For You, but for some reason Joss seems not to want us to know what his characters actually think.
-to see Buffy steal a car
-I don't want either Spike or Angel to come back anything more than a "Hey, we're not dead."
-Of course, now that I've said that the idea of having some Angel characters interacting with Buffy characters is just bedazzling my mind. Xander trying to make Illyria laugh...Connor kicking it with Centaur!Dawn and some slayers...Connor sparring with Buffy...
-Clem

[Slayer+]

-More internal monologue. It's one of the most important advantages of this medium, and it's being neglected. Every issue could be as intimate as The Chain or No Future For You, but for some reason Joss seems not to want us to know what his characters actually think.
-to see Buffy steal a car
-I don't want either Spike or Angel to come back anything more than a "Hey, we're not dead."
-Of course, now that I've said that the idea of having some Angel characters interacting with Buffy characters is just bedazzling my mind. Xander trying to make Illyria laugh...Connor kicking it with Centaur!Dawn and some slayers...Connor sparring with Buffy...
-Clem

One of these things has happened but I won't say which. Pick up the next issue and you'll find out. :roll:

[XavierZane]

Nah, I meant an regular car. Her comment of "This is my first time with Grand Theft Flying Auto" made me think that it wasn't her first time with GTA in general. So I want to see her first experience with stealing a car. And, to be fair, we didn't actually see Buffy steal the stolen flying car, we just saw them flying it later. I want to see her jimmy the lock or break the window, hotwire the thing, and make a clean getaway.

[stormwreath]

So I want to see her first experience with stealing a car. Already happened. She and Xander stole a police car in 'Two To Go'. She stole the traffic warden's vehicle thingy in 'Gone'. Technically, she stole the Watchers' Council hit team's van in 'Who Are You'.

[XavierZane]

Awesome! I'll have to re-watch those scenes, cause I remember them not. Gracias.

[KingofCretins]

You'll be disappointed. Xander steals the police car, off screen, not Buffy. Buffy is invisible when she the golf cart, and she doesn't really do much in terms of thievery to take the armored truck, just climbs in and tries to figure out how to drive it before they can try to shoot her.

I'd like to see Buffy/Xander still. But if that's not going to happen, Xander/Dawn or even Xander/Faith. I'd also like to see some relationships actually last. If no Buffy/Xander, I'd also like to see Buffy/Normal Guy instead of a new retread of her and Angel or her and Spike.

[Enisy]

I'd like to see Buffy/Xander still. But if that's not going to happen, Xander/Dawn or even Xander/Faith. I'd also like to see some relationships actually last.

Jeffrey Bell: One of the things that's interesting about my position is that we get lots of fan mail. Some of the fan mail says Spike and Buffy should be together. Some people think Angel and Buffy should be together forever. And we get fan mail from people who think Angel and Cordelia should be together forever. There are lots of different factions with lots of different beliefs, and what's kind of fun is that they're all right in some way. To land too hard on any one idea takes away some of the fun of it. I will say that for everyone who wants whatever pairing together I think they'd be ultimately be disappointed if we actually did it. Once you're together, what's there to pine for? And for people who want them apart, if there's some way to keep their love alive, there's something to keep those people interested and questioning.

^ Which, from my experience in other fandoms, tends to be true.

[KingofCretins]

That sense of perspective would mean more if you weren't posting it coming from a place of having had your favorite 'ship be the focus of two full seasons of the series, complete with many, many sex scenes and kissing :)

I've always found the Buffyverse writers a bit wrong-minded about this sort of thing -- you can have lasting relationships in this sort of fiction without it getting tired. Lois and Clark have been married in the comics since... 1996 without the story dragging. Mary-Jane and Peter were married in 1987 and twenty years of story went by without problems until their marriage was retconned out in an extraordinarily unpopular move. So please, Jeffrey Bell, don't suggest that fans get bored so easily or that stable relationships make bad storytelling in genre fiction. History says you're wrong.

[Enisy]

That sense of perspective would mean more if you weren't posting it coming from a place of having had your favorite 'ship be the focus of two full seasons of the series, complete with many, many sex scenes and kissing :)

So? Never said that Xander and Buffy, to use your example of preference, shouldn't get together for a season or two, just that they shouldn't be the Happily Ever After of the 'verse (which Spike/Buffy wasn't, either, nor Angel/Buffy).

I've always found the Buffyverse writers a bit wrong-minded about this sort of thing -- you can have lasting relationships in this sort of fiction without it getting tired. Lois and Clark have been married in the comics since... 1996 without the story dragging. Mary-Jane and Peter were married in 1987 and twenty years of story went by without problems until their marriage was retconned out in an extraordinarily unpopular move. So please, Jeffrey Bell, don't suggest that fans get bored so easily or that stable relationships make bad storytelling in genre fiction. History says you're wrong.

I'm not sure why it works that way with comic books, but not with TV series, or, apparently, comic-books-descended-from-TV-series. Maybe because the core audience in the comic book world is male, so the highers-up don't feel so tempted to milk the Tough Love angle. As you've pointed out before, in those cases, the couple is a "character", not a driving force for the plot (as is the case with Buffy, most of the time).

[sueworld]

I'm not sure why it works that way with comic books, but not with TV series, or, apparently, comic-books-descended-from-TV-series. Maybe because the core audience in the comic book world is male, so the highers-up don't feel so tempted to milk the Tough Love angle.

Yeah, I suspect you're right there. Your average comic book guy seems rather turned off by too much 'shippy stuff' and seem to be more into who can beat the crap outta who in a fight.

Trouble is the Buffyverse always did involve a lot of relationship stuff which normally isn't seen as the kind of thing that doesn't 'sell' well with the comic book audience.

[KingofCretins]

Yeah, I suspect you're right there. Your average comic book guy seems rather turned off by too much 'shippy stuff' and seem to be more into who can beat the crap outta who in a fight.

Trouble is the Buffyverse always did involve a lot of relationship stuff and so having the powers that be tone that side of things down often feels a little weird now and again.

I really would love to think of a way that could be more condescending, but I just can't. I mean, when I think of "Watchmen" and "Y: The Last Man", I think of nothing more than "who can beat the crap outta who in a fight".

And, it's not like all television is about warped pathological relationships with an absurdly high failure rate, like Joss's shows have. The only "stable" relationships he's ever bothered with he still *has* to destroy around the two year mark for no apparent reason at all. Was Season 6 really going to fall apart narratively if Xander and Anya had gotten married?

[Enisy]

Was Season 6 really going to fall apart narratively if Xander and Anya had gotten married?

No, but I guess people wouldn't be writing as much fanfiction about them. That's the sort of motive Joss would be likely to have, from what I know of him (from what I've read in interviews).

[sueworld]

I really would love to think of a way that could be more condescending, but I just can't. I mean, when I think of "Watchmen" and "Y: The Last Man", I think of nothing more than "who can beat the crap outta who in a fight".

To be fair most young boys do prefer more action orientated stories in comics and films more then your typical women. Look at how the industries geared to serve them. Look at the video games industry for a start.

Men and women often have very different wants from their entertainment. Not everybody that true, but I'm talking about your average Joe here.

[vampmogs]

It's not just comic books that manage to have a relationship that keeps lasting but fresh at the same time. 'Alias' only ever had one main ship, Sidney/Vaughn and whilst there was a brief end of that relationship in the third season, they still longed for one another, got back together and stayed that way until the end of the series. They were always each other’s love interest the whole way through and it never once got stale.

The idea that, as for example, Buffy/Xander can get together but there’s a guarantee they’ll be broke up eventually, or *should* be broken up eventually is bizarre to me? Why should it have to be like this?

[Enisy]

On the other hand...

Steven S. DeKnight: Joss is indeed a wise man. You guys remember Lois & Clark? The fans screamed for them to get married, and the showrunners made it so. Then the fans promptly stopped watching. I'm just saying. (February 2002)

- - -

Marti Noxon: As for Buffy and Angel, they have their own shows now. Angel is doing well in the ratings and gaining a following of his own. I think they've moved on. I mean, I was also broken-hearted when they went their separate ways -- but let's face it. There wasn't a whole lot more for them to play out. She dies, he almost dies, he goes to Hell, he comes back. Remember when David and Maddie got together? Or Sam and Diane? Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

[vampmogs]

On the other hand... you have characters like Jim/Pam from 'The Office' with many fans on message boards saying how lame and predictable it