Why So Much Hate?

[Daihrin]

For Season 7, I mean. I'm currently rewatching the Season, and I'm liking it more than I have since my initial, all-at-once run through a few years back. I'll concede that there are flaws, and that there are quite a few better seasons, but I can't understand the hate that so many fans of the series seem to have.

Sure, the Turok-Han thing in Chosen, and the possible stupidity of the Scoobies' decision in Empty Places were weaknesses, and perhaps Willow was pushed to the side (I don't really see that one all that much, though; she even has two or three "Willow-centric" episodes...), but are these inconsistencies and flaws really enough to fault an entire season? I'm not trying to defend any of these (and probably others, I'd love to hear 'em) issues, mind, i just don't personally see them as enough to dislike the season.

Anyway, I'd love to hear from both sides of the argument (dispute? conflict? Eh, I don't know the one right word for this instance, heh.) Reasons why you don't like the season, and discussion would be great.

Oh, and one more thing: omitting anything from Season 8 (or at the very least spoiler-ing it) would be great, as I'm a bit behind at the moment.

[vampmogs]

Season seven is just a mess for me really. It's still Buffy so I can still find things enjoyable from it, but in comparison to other seasons I think it pales and perhaps why I'm so angry about it is that it was supposed to be the finale season and it didn't deliver. I'll break it down roughly as to what my main problems are;

Inconsistencies:

As you say, this is a lot of people's problems with the season. I think there are far too many. Just to name a few;

1) What were the First's plans for Spike? It was never even stated. We had so many bloody episodes focused on it "Sleeper" "Never Leave Me" "Bring on the Night" "Showtime" "Lies My Parents Told Me" and so much talk about it, but we never even found out what the plans for Spike actually were? Not once. The First apparently had plans for him, yet it's foolish enough to draw attention to the fact it's using Spike by having him kill and sire a bunch of people? It was just silly.

2) Was that Joyce, what did Joyce mean? It was never followed up on. I believe Joss said it wasn't her but that's not good enough. Fans shouldn't have to rely on external sources to understand what's going on in the show, it should be made clear and addressed within the context of the series. And it never was, and the whole plot point behind it was never addressed either.

3) "My death would make you the next slayer." Not only is it a silly line seeing as how we didn't get one after Buffy died in 'The Gift' but it makes you wonder if the same people were even writing these episodes or had even watched the series.

4) The Beljoxas eye telling Giles and Anya Buffy's death screwed up the slayer line. This was never brought up again, not once. It was never explained, never used as a plot point for Buffy to give her some internal struggle, just nothing. Why even bring something up if you're just going to drop it?

5) The Turok Han being incredibly hard to kill in 'Bring on the Night' and 'Showtime' and easy to kill, even for humans in 'Chosen.'

6) Spike being drowned under what by the Uber Vamp? Ah he doesn't breath...

The First:

Just a lame villain. It couldn't touch or effect anything and the only thing it could do was try and twist and manipulate but it failed terribly at that. Over the years there's many things fans have thought up that could have been used for the First. We could have had it appear as Spike while Buffy as taking a bath, we could have had it appear as Jenny to Giles to make him fear Spike, we could have had it been used as Hank to really dig in at Buffy ect. But instead it was used terribly and to great lame effect. Buffy was right to make fun of it in 'Chosen.' It did nothing.

Lack of Scoobies:

It was the finale season, we had Giles back and yet he might as well have not even been there. The show started with Buffy/Xander/Willow/Giles and especially with the three kids, they've been there from start to finish. People like Xander deserved a storyline and yet they got absolutely nothing. It was atrocious how little part he got in 'Chosen' I believe even SMG voiced her opinion on that in an interview, claiming she believed that the finale should have been two hours long and that Xander should have got more of a part. And Giles did nothing either.

Too much Spike:

Accuse me of Spike hate all you want, but I'll stick by it. When people like Xander and Giles got nothing I personally think it's quite bad they gave Spike so much. Not only did we have at least three episodes centred completely around him ('Sleeper' 'Never Leave Me' and 'Lies My Parents Told Me'.. even arguably 'Bring on the Night') and not *one* focused on Xander or Giles, but if he wasn't in a scene other characters were talking about him. It was pretty much just Spike.. Spike.. Spike. Buffy pretty much talked about nothing but Spike, her and Giles only really talked when it was conflict about Spike ect.

The Potentials:

Generally I think they lacked anything really. Great idea on paper but poorly executed. And I think it comes down to the general lack of effort by the writers in season seven. I think the slayers in season 8 are written far better and are far more likeable. All the potentials did was whine, bitch or look scared. They brought nothing, offered nothing to the table and yet took up so much screen time in the finale season of the series.

Buffy:

There wasn't enough down to get an insight into what was going on with her. As a result you see a lot of fans hating her that season and even still hating her as a result of it. They're doing something wrong if they manage to make a large section of fans despise the star of the show. If we only got a few more scenes like the Buffy scene of her crying as she washes the dishes in season five, maybe people would sympathise with her more.

Cheap Plot Devices:

The fact that the only reason the Scoobies even won against the First was because Angel brought over an amulet introduced on his series is pitiful. It was cheap, it was out of the blue and saved their asses because the writers had backed them into a corner. As was the spell to make all the slayers. It doesn't make sense, how did Buffy suddenly have a revelation that the scythe could be used to do this after talking with the First, it was just silly. And the Scythe should have been introduced a lot earlier to give proper set up to it.

General lack of Buffyness:

IMO, the season seriously lacked the spark and wit that made Buffy great. I felt this way somewhat in season six as well but that season had a lot more going for it than season seven did. It was boring dialogue with boring scenes and generally it was pretty boring in how they edited and directed the episodes as well. The series had prided itself on how it made something special each week but by the time season seven had come around it had dwindled it just being another show. Where other shows were far superior in terms of direction, writing and cinematography.

And just other little things. Like in 'Lies My Parents Told Me' with the writers pretty much screwing over *everything* the show had done with Buffy's character in the past six years. A major part of the show's entire pitch and theme was that Buffy was *chosen* to battle vampires. She never had a choice, hence the constant battle between a normal life and slayerhood. In this episode they have Spike say that a slayer "signs up for it" as if it's her fault and what's worse, they offer no rebutal for such a blatant remark that contradicts everything they've set up for seven years.

[molly13]

Yeah I'm glad you chose to omit stuff from season 8 because I'm behind too and I get all confused when people start talking about it. Anyways, I actually really like Season 7 because I felt like the show kept progressing to a higher level. A lot of people didn't like the fact that Buffy was in control of their "army" but really, hasn't she always been? I mean the only difference was that the potentials were there but she's always called the shots during an apocolypse.

[molly13]

Season seven is just a mess for me really. It's still Buffy so I can still find things enjoyable from it, but in comparison to other seasons I think it pales and perhaps why I'm so angry about it is that it was supposed to be the finale season and it didn't deliver. I'll break it down roughly as to what my main problems are;

Inconsistencies:

As you say, this is a lot of people's problems with the season. I think there are far too many. Just to name a few;

1) What were the First's plans for Spike? It was never even stated. We had so many bloody episodes focused on it "Sleeper" "Never Leave Me" "Bring on the Night" "Showtime" "Lies My Parents Told Me" and so much talk about it, but we never even found out what the plans for Spike actually were? Not once. The First apparently had plans for him, yet it's foolish enough to draw attention to the fact it's using Spike by having him kill and sire a bunch of people? It was just silly.

2) Was that Joyce, what did Joyce mean? It was never followed up on. I believe Joss said it wasn't her but that's not good enough. Fans shouldn't have to rely on external sources to understand what's going on in the show, it should be made clear and addressed within the context of the series. And it never was, and the whole plot point behind it was never addressed either.

3) "My death would make you the next slayer." Not only is it a silly line seeing as how we didn't get one after Buffy died in 'The Gift' but it makes you wonder if the same people were even writing these episodes or had even watched the series.

4) The Beljoxas eye telling Giles and Anya Buffy's death screwed up the slayer line. This was never brought up again, not once. It was never explained, never used as a plot point for Buffy to give her some internal struggle, just nothing. Why even bring something up if you're just going to drop it?

5) The Turok Han being incredibly hard to kill in 'Bring on the Night' and 'Showtime' and easy to kill, even for humans in 'Chosen.'

6) Spike being drowned under what by the Uber Vamp? Ah he doesn't breath...

The First:

Just a lame villain. It couldn't touch or effect anything and the only thing it could do was try and twist and manipulate but it failed terribly at that. Over the years there's many things fans have thought up that could have been used for the First. We could have had it appear as Spike while Buffy as taking a bath, we could have had it appear as Jenny to Giles to make him fear Spike, we could have had it been used as Hank to really dig in at Buffy ect. But instead it was used terribly and to great lame effect. Buffy was right to make fun of it in 'Chosen.' It did nothing.

Lack of Scoobies:

It was the finale season, we had Giles back and yet he might as well have not even been there. The show started with Buffy/Xander/Willow/Giles and especially with the three kids, they've been there from start to finish. People like Xander deserved a storyline and yet they got absolutely nothing. It was atrocious how little part he got in 'Chosen' I believe even SMG voiced her opinion on that in an interview, claiming she believed that the finale should have been two hours long and that Xander should have got more of a part. And Giles did nothing either.

Too much Spike:

Accuse me of Spike hate all you want, but I'll stick by it. When people like Xander and Giles got nothing I personally think it's quite bad they gave Spike so much. Not only did we have at least three episodes centred completely around him ('Sleeper' 'Never Leave Me' and 'Lies My Parents Told Me'.. even arguably 'Bring on the Night') and not *one* focused on Xander or Giles, but if he wasn't in a scene other characters were talking about him. It was pretty much just Spike.. Spike.. Spike. Buffy pretty much talked about nothing but Spike, her and Giles only really talked when it was conflict about Spike ect.

The Potentials:

Generally I think they lacked anything really. Great idea on paper but poorly executed. And I think it comes down to the general lack of effort by the writers in season seven. I think the slayers in season 8 are written far better and are far more likeable. All the potentials did was whine, bitch or look scared. They brought nothing, offered nothing to the table and yet took up so much screen time in the finale season of the series.

Buffy:

There wasn't enough down to get an insight into what was going on with her. As a result you see a lot of fans hating her that season and even still hating her as a result of it. They're doing something wrong if they manage to make a large section of fans despise the star of the show. If we only got a few more scenes like the Buffy scene of her crying as she washes the dishes in season five, maybe people would sympathise with her more.

Cheap Plot Devices:

The fact that the only reason the Scoobies even won against the First was because Angel brought over an amulet introduced on his series is pitiful. It was cheap, it was out of the blue and saved their asses because the writers had backed them into a corner. As was the spell to make all the slayers. It doesn't make sense, how did Buffy suddenly have a revelation that the scythe could be used to do this after talking with the First, it was just silly. And the Scythe should have been introduced a lot earlier to give proper set up to it.

General lack of Buffyness:

IMO, the season seriously lacked the spark and wit that made Buffy great. I felt this way somewhat in season six as well but that season had a lot more going for it than season seven did. It was boring dialogue with boring scenes and generally it was pretty boring in how they edited and directed the episodes as well. The series had prided itself on how it made something special each week but by the time season seven had come around it had dwindled it just being another show. Where other shows were far superior in terms of direction, writing and cinematography.

And just other little things. Like in 'Lies My Parents Told Me' with the writers pretty much screwing over *everything* the show had done with Buffy's character in the past six years. A major part of the show's entire pitch and theme was that Buffy was *chosen* to battle vampires. She never had a choice, hence the constant battle between a normal life and slayerhood. In this episode they have Spike say that a slayer "signs up for it" as if it's her fault and what's worse, they offer no rebutal for such a blatant remark that contradicts everything they've set up for seven years.

Not to be rude or anything because everyone's allowed to have an opinion, but if you have so many complaints about the show then why do you watch it? So many people post all the things they hate about the show over and over again and yeah all of us don't enjoy certain episodes or characters or whatnot but why focus so much on it. I get that the point of the topic was to discuss whether we like the season or not, its just that you seem so critical of this season, was there any part of it you did like?

[vampmogs]

Not to be rude or anything because everyone's allowed to have an opinion, but if you have so many complaints about the show then why do you watch it?

Season seven isn't the show (thankgod) it's one season out of eight. Just because I dislike season seven doesn't mean I dislike the show. Also as I stated above the top of my post, "It's still Buffy so I can still find things enjoyable from it..."

So many people post all the things they hate about the show over and over again and yeah all of us don't enjoy certain episodes or characters or whatnot but why focus so much on it.

Because the entire point of the thread was to tell Daihrin why we don't enjoy or enjoy season seven? He's asking why so many on the boards have problems with the season, I told him why I do. It's why he created the thread in the first place? So I don’t think I should be made to feel bad for answering his question.

[molly13]

I'm not saying you should feel bad about the way you feel towards the season. That doesn't make sense. I thought we were supposed to discuss the reasoning for hating the season if we did? Sorry if I made you upset cause I didn't intend to, I was just trying to voice my opinion like everybody else.

[Daihrin]

I'm going to pick and choose a bit, and reply to a few things with my thoughts...

Inconsistencies:

1) What were the First's plans for Spike? It was never even stated. We had so many bloody episodes focused on it "Sleeper" "Never Leave Me" "Bring on the Night" "Showtime" "Lies My Parents Told Me" and so much talk about it, but we never even found out what the plans for Spike actually were? Not once. The First apparently had plans for him, yet it's foolish enough to draw attention to the fact it's using Spike by having him kill and sire a bunch of people? It was just silly.

That bit always bothered me, too. I just finished rewatching Never Leave Me this time through, so I haven't been able to be annoyed by that thread being dropped yet~


2) Was that Joyce, what did Joyce mean? It was never followed up on. I believe Joss said it wasn't her but that's not good enough. Fans shouldn't have to rely on external sources to understand what's going on in the show, it should be made clear and addressed within the context of the series. And it never was, and the whole plot point behind it was never addressed either.

This one I actually kind of liked -- at least to a point. I liked Dawn never really knowing whether it was Joyce or not, but I agree that the plot idea needed to be drawn out more thoroughly.


5) The Turok Han being incredibly hard to kill in 'Bring on the Night' and 'Showtime' and easy to kill, even for humans in 'Chosen.'

Ugh, yeah. One of the worst moments on the series, I agree.


6) Spike being drowned under what by the Uber Vamp? Ah he doesn't breath...

What I never understood is why nobody ever complains about vampires smoking...


The First:

Just a lame villain. It couldn't touch or effect anything and the only thing it could do was try and twist and manipulate but it failed terribly at that. Over the years there's many things fans have thought up that could have been used for the First. We could have had it appear as Spike while Buffy as taking a bath, we could have had it appear as Jenny to Giles to make him fear Spike, we could have had it been used as Hank to really dig in at Buffy ect. But instead it was used terribly and to great lame effect. Buffy was right to make fun of it in 'Chosen.' It did nothing.

I wouldn't say the First was a lame villain -- I'd just say it was a poorly executed villain. I can see your point, but purely as a concept, I'd say the First ranks near the top of my Scare-O-Meter, personally.


Lack of Scoobies:

Too much Spike:

When people like Xander and Giles got nothing I personally think it's quite bad they gave Spike so much.

I'm inclined to agree with that statement, even if I really like Spike. I think, for Spike's character, the season was amazingly done, and I think Willow advanced in a fairly understandable direction as well. I would argue that Xander did have somewhat of an arc, though it was rather subtle. The whole "heart" thing that he's had since, well, the beginning of the series (most notably in S4, I think...) really appeared very strongly here, and his changing relationships with both Dawn and more significantly Anya helped propel the character's story to heights we haven't seen in high doses since S3, really. As for Giles? Well, you have a point there.


The Potentials:

Great idea on paper but poorly executed.

Er, I used that line (after reading yours, sorry) on another thread earlier tonight, so I can't very well disagree with it now, can I?


Buffy:

Yeah, I disliked Buffy in S7. But, I've kind of disliked her since S5, although I sympathized with her a great deal more then. After the Adam/Initiative thing, she wasn't the same, and Dawn's introduction arc didn't help that. Perhaps her going through the whole Slayer-self-searching bit after her encounter with Dracula helped to drive her down the path she eventually went down? I don't know, though, I can forgive her almost as much in S7 as S6, because, when leading an all out war effort, who wouldn't try to isolate their feelings?


Cheap plot devices:

Er, yeah, that was rather weak, but if I were to play devil's advocate, I'd say the writers didn't have much time and had to do SOMETHING. Yeah, very weak.


General lack of Buffyness:

IMO, the season seriously lacked the spark and wit that made Buffy great. I felt this way somewhat in season six as well but that season had a lot more going for it than season seven did. It was boring dialogue with boring scenes and generally it was pretty boring in how they edited and directed the episodes as well. The series had prided itself on how it made something special each week but by the time season seven had come around it had dwindled it just being another show. Where other shows were far superior in terms of direction, writing and cinematography.

Now, this here I just don't understand at all, much less agree with. I'm glad to hear the opinion, and the explanation, and hope to hear more, mind. I just can't wrap my brain around that. I actually think S7 had far more "Buffyness" than S6, what with all of the latter's deliberate literal quality. I like my show to have a bit more metaphor (not that I dislike S6, mind you~).

Overall, though, while I can easily see the argument presented, I still can't see where all the hate comes from... Heh, I love this kind of discussion.

[stormwreath]

I liked Season 7, but I have to agree that there was a lot of wasted potential (sorry). The ideas they had work a lot better on paper than they did on screen, and the pacing and continuity suffered sometimes. They were just trying to cram too much into too little time.

Even so, this is the season that gave us The First saying "It's not about good. It's not about evil. It's about power" while morphing from one Big Bad to another; and it gave us Buffy saying "I'm standing on the mouth of Hell, and it's going to swallow me whole. (pause) And it'll choke on me." And it had her holding a knife to Andrew's throat and telling him "People are gonna die. Girls. Maybe me. (pause) Probably you. (pause) Probably right now." And it had Kennedy telling Willow "You are a goddess", and that dramatic battle on the Hellmouth - who cares if the Turok-Han suffered from the Inverse Ninja Effect, that was just cool to watch. And it had Buffy's smile at the end.

More specifically:

I'm pretty sure The First's plan for Spike was exactly what happened. By telling everybody that it had a plan for Spike, it stirred up fear and paranoia and hatred, and eventually drove Giles and Wood to betray Buffy and commit attempted murder. There was no plan for Spike to "do something" as such; the entire plan was to increase the amount of evil in the world. The plan worked.

The First/Drusilla specifically mentions that you can't drown a vampire, but clearly having its head held underwater and water being forced into your lungs, etc, is uncomfortable for one. That's the point; you can torture Spike for hours this way without actually running any danger of killing him.

Yes, there are a lot of people The First could have appeared as, to maximum emotional impact. But that would have meant paying more money for guest star actors - Joss mentions in the commentary to 'Lessons' that he wanted to bring back some of those Big Bads more often but they just didn't have the budget.

[kassyopeia]

5) The Turok Han being incredibly hard to kill in 'Bring on the Night' and 'Showtime' and easy to kill, even for humans in 'Chosen.'
tvtropes.org has an excellent article on this phenomenon, they call it the law of "Conservation Of Ninjutsu (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConservationOfNinjutsu)". :roll:
6) Spike being drowned under what by the Uber Vamp? Ah he doesn't breath...
Until a few days ago, I didn't actually mind that scene too much, because there is a basis in folklore for the idea that vampires can indeed be drowned. It's closely linked with the idea that they cannot cross running water and hasn't anything to do with depriving them of oxygen. Like the occasional occurrence of garlic, this wouldn't really tie into the standard Buffyverse vampire mythology, but it wouldn't necessarily be a plot hole either.

Then, I read the script, and it completely destroys all fanwankability in this matter. Way to go, Marti.

Spike suddenly SPUTTERS TO LIFE. He coughs up water, then gasps
horribly - fighting to get the water out of his lungs.

DRUSILLA/FIRST (cont'd)
Hard to kill.

Spike stares at Drusilla/First, trying to find his breath but it won't come.

[NileQT87]

i imagine it would still be unpleasant and uncomfortable, even if you didn't need to breathe, if your lungs filled up with water, as his obviously did.

i'd imagine whatever enters a vampire's body other than blood is probably uncomfortable enough that the reflex would be to dislodge it. that's probably the case here.

marti even wrote that spike had water in his lungs. actually, that proves spike's reaction as being one of extreme discomfort and the need to force the water out, rather than suffocation. interesting words--"fighting to get the water out". perhaps it means that it might actually be a little more difficult for a vampire to force liquids out of themselves without their lungs able to fill with air properly.

i think vampires can force air into their lungs (to smoke, for example), but it doesn't happen naturally--they have to force it and perhaps it's difficult or unpleasant to do so. some might do it out of a habit learned from their human counterparts. that would explain a lot. particularly the vampires who tend to be more human than demonic--the ones who prefer to relate to humans and connect themselves closely to humanity. spike, even when he was evil, tended to reject the master's kind of pro-demon vampirism. he also has a lot of weet-bix, blooming onion, smoking and alcoholic habits/tendencies. he seems to force a lot of non-blood items in himself.

as far as spike choking off drusilla... i always saw that as him perhaps breaking her neck without severing her spinal cord (which would turn her to dust). choking doesn't work, but perhaps something a little more damaging would make the vampire pass out.

[kassyopeia]

I actually think S7 had far more "Buffyness" than S6, what with all of the latter's deliberate literal quality.
I agree, and I think most people do. There is a big difference between the seasons, though, because season 6 was deliberately different, whereas season 7 was explicitly and literally set up to go "right back to the beginning". So, in that sense, season 6 succeeded and season 7 failed. Personally, I still enjoy season 7 more than season 6 overall, but I can see what they're trying to do in season 6, whereas season 7's arc entirely lacks focus. The only red thread I can find is the "power" theme, all the rest of it consists of bits and pieces that are introduced and twisted and dropped depending on the message they happen to think of for a given episode. Instead of the "monster of the week" of the early seasons, we get "season arc of the week" in season 7. Which is beyond lame.
They were just trying to cram too much into too little time.
Yes, that was a major factor. But it isn't much of an excuse, as there was no need to do any cramming. Most of the subplots never went anywhere, so they may as well have been left out to focus on advancing either the main arc (per season 5) or give us proper standalones (per season 4).
Yes, there are a lot of people The First could have appeared as, to maximum emotional impact. But that would have meant paying more money for guest star actors - Joss mentions in the commentary to 'Lessons' that he wanted to bring back some of those Big Bads more often but they just didn't have the budget.
Right, but that's only one side of the issue. Its ability to impersonate Buffy and Spike, and to be in several places at once, could have been used to sooo much greater effect than it was. Of course, villains set up as basically more powerful than the hero (which fantasy villains almost always are) need a certain level of stupidity to allow for a happy ending, but The First far outstripped anything we've seen from previous Buffy villains in this respect.

[Daihrin]

i think vampires can force air into their lungs (to smoke, for example), but it doesn't happen naturally--they have to force it and perhaps it's difficult or unpleasant to do so. some might do it out of a habit learned from their human counterparts. that would explain a lot. particularly the vampires who tend to be more human than demonic--the ones who prefer to relate to humans and connect themselves closely to humanity. spike, even when he was evil, tended to reject the master's kind of pro-demon vampirism. he also has a lot of weet-bix, blooming onion, smoking and alcoholic habits/tendencies. he seems to force a lot of non-blood items in himself.

This would probably sit better with me, were it not for Angel being unable to save Buffy in Prophecy Girl, and being able to smoke as Angelus in Innocence. That actually sort of works exactly the opposite of your theory: Angelus, the more demonic of the two, is able to force the air to smoke, but Angel, the one attempting to, well, "fit in" with humans, fails to save the girl he loves? Eh, I just don't buy it.

But that's not really on topic, is it? Bah, it was fun~

[NileQT87]

maybe they can force enough air to smoke a cigarette, but it would take significantly more to get enough air for c.p.r.? at least marti wrote that spike was FIGHTING to expel the water from his lungs. she wrote it like it wasn't maybe easy.

that's the best fanwank i've got. let's not forget the no-blood-flow thing and sex.

or maybe they just are physically incapable of being life-giving vessels for some magical metaphysical reason that has nothing to do with anatomy. darla did make a comment about not even being able to push connor out. could be the same vampire rule that makes it so angel can't give c.p.r.

[Koos]

Not to be rude or anything because everyone's allowed to have an opinion, but if you have so many complaints about the show then why do you watch it? So many people post all the things they hate about the show over and over again and yeah all of us don't enjoy certain episodes or characters or whatnot but why focus so much on it. I get that the point of the topic was to discuss whether we like the season or not, its just that you seem so critical of this season, was there any part of it you did like?

This thread specifically is about why so many people dislike season 7. So that gives vampmogs all the reason what he dislikes about the season.
As to why people watch if they don't like it is a rather unfair question IMO. It's states something general while in this it is not, because it is the last season of the show and not the first. If you like the first six seasons why would you suddenly stop watching with s7? Especially if you have grown to certain characters which you expect to show up and have a story to tell. Which is suddenly, as it turns out, is not the case.
And to me that last the lack of Giles, Dawn, Anya, Willow and Xander is the reason why I dislike season 7. I especially dislike that Spike's arc is progressed not only at the cost of their arclines, but is even progressed over the backs over said characters (which is ultimately shown in Empty Spaces/Touched. And Giles also in Lies My Parent Told Me, and Xander's also in First Date and Chosen). Also Spike's arcline progressed over Buffy's character, who needed to be turned into a non-caring bitch (again).

[kassyopeia]

or maybe they just are physically incapable of being life-giving vessels for some magical metaphysical reason that has nothing to do with anatomy. darla did make a comment about not even being able to push connor out. could be the same vampire rule that makes it so angel can't give c.p.r.
Yeah, that's how I always explain that scene to myself. Canon overwhelmingly says that a vampire's lungs are quite operational - how would they speak otherwise? But breath in the context of CPR, at a very shallow metaphorical level, is equivalent to life, and Angel doesn't have any life to give, so his breath wouldn't do the trick. Even though I'm a scientist, I'm quite okay with that interpretation.

[kana]

Yeah, that's how I always explain that scene to myself. Canon overwhelmingly says that a vampire's lungs are quite operational - how would they speak otherwise? But breath in the context of CPR, at a very shallow metaphorical level, is equivalent to life, and Angel doesn't have any life to give, so his breath wouldn't do the trick. Even though I'm a scientist, I'm quite okay with that interpretation.

I'm cool with it too, although I'm not a scientist, it seems in the verse, certain physical elements have both natural and supernatural qualities (like blood and the brain etc), so I suspend belief to a degree. I'm also past the whole 'Joss sucking at math' thing.

[kassyopeia]

I'm also past the whole 'Joss sucking at math' thing.
You mean like here?

XANDER (V.O.)
What am I going to do? I think about
sex all the time. Sex. Help. Four times
five is thirty. Five times six is thirty-two...
Naked girls. Naked women. Naked Buffy.
Oh, stop me.

:)

[Michael]

The problem of Season 7 reminds me of F.R.Leavis's famous if subtle distinction between "the imagined" and "the contrived". It is not always an easy matter but I think it is important. It is like the distinction between a real cat and a clockwork cat. The clockwork contrivance might be quite neat in its way and it might "work" efficiently, but it is not alive and nothing can make it so.

On the other hand the first three seasons of BtVS were works of real, powerful imagination. The show was full of life. The characters, major and minor, the high school and local and family life,and the stories all flowed like a living stream.

Season 7 was a series of contrivances,many of them dull and predictable as if they were written by the numbers, and badly even by that standard. The cast kept the show watchable. They all deserve medals for what they achieved with such poor material. My affection for these people kept me watching.

[Vampire in Rug]

I liked Season 7, but I have to agree that there was a lot of wasted potential (sorry).

Haha, I love a good pun!

Even so, this is the season that gave us The First saying "It's not about good. It's not about evil. It's about power" while morphing from one Big Bad to another; and it gave us Buffy saying "I'm standing on the mouth of Hell, and it's going to swallow me whole. (pause) And it'll choke on me." And it had her holding a knife to Andrew's throat and telling him "People are gonna die. Girls. Maybe me. (pause) Probably you. (pause) Probably right now." And it had Kennedy telling Willow "You are a goddess", and that dramatic battle on the Hellmouth - who cares if the Turok-Han suffered from the Inverse Ninja Effect, that was just cool to watch. And it had Buffy's smile at the end.

Some of that I liked, some of it I didn't. But I agree, season seven gave us some great stuff. Every season has highs and lows, I just feel that the lows of season seven were lower than that of any other season.

I'm pretty sure The First's plan for Spike was exactly what happened. By telling everybody that it had a plan for Spike, it stirred up fear and paranoia and hatred, and eventually drove Giles and Wood to betray Buffy and commit attempted murder. There was no plan for Spike to "do something" as such; the entire plan was to increase the amount of evil in the world. The plan worked.

Then why spend so much time trying to seduce/corrupt Spike? Especially with Drusilla in the cave? If there's no real plan for Spike why not just dust him right there and then? I mean, he's a powerful warrior on the side of good -wouldn't it be a good idea to eliminate him as soon as the chance arises? I agree that a large part of the plan was to spread mistrust amongst the scoobies but the First sure did spend a lot of time with Spike one-on-one. With the ammount of screentime devoted to discussing the First's plan with Spike, we should have either gotten some kind of payoff or actually had it confirmed onscreen that there was no plan. They left too many loose ends.

The First/Drusilla specifically mentions that you can't drown a vampire, but clearly having its head held underwater and water being forced into your lungs, etc, is uncomfortable for one. That's the point; you can torture Spike for hours this way without actually running any danger of killing him.

There's no reason why Spike would have water in his lungs. I'm sure it would be very uncomfortable to have a lungful of water, nobody has ever disputed that. The problem many people (myself included) have with this scene is that this form of torture should not have worked on a vampire at all because vampire's don't have to breathe. Why would Spike choose to inhale while his head is underwater? He doesn't have to. The only reason he did was because of crappy writing. In the AtS episode "Why we Fight" Angel was sunk into the ocean to rescue a submarine. He spent much more time underwater than Spike did, and he didn't need to forcefully cough up water. Why? Because he wasn't breathing it in.

Yes, there are a lot of people The First could have appeared as, to maximum emotional impact. But that would have meant paying more money for guest star actors - Joss mentions in the commentary to 'Lessons' that he wanted to bring back some of those Big Bads more often but they just didn't have the budget.

Even so, there's a lot of thing the First could have done with the actors they had. The First/Spike taunting Buffy whilst she's in the bath is a popular one. It could have appeared as Angel for Buffy, or Buffy for Dawn. Maybe pose as Halfrek to taunt Anya about her vengance days. There's lotsa more creative stuff they could have done with just the actors from that season.

[KingofCretins]

Rather than just go into all the flaws, which others have ably discussed, I'm going to talk about how the whole thing could have been tightened up or modified from what was essentially there into a better season.

1. Pay Off Your Mysteries: There were a few major mysteries that were raised and pretty much abandoned, and they should have been built into the season arc. The biggest is Spike and the First's interest in him -- I'll discuss that later. The second is exactly why the First was acting at all. Even now, there has never been a clean answer as to which time Buffy came back that the First meant to. For me, the best answer they could have chosen is "Prophecy Girl". For a few reasons --

Weren't we going "back to the beginning"? What a great way to demonstrate that than by blaming the entire crisis on an event in the first season finale.
The First was... already back before "Bargaining". The manifested First in "Amends" should not have been treated as an insignificant detail -- that episode could and should have been incorporated into the steps it was taking in Season 7. I'll discuss that with Spike, as well.
It makes the number of active Slayers metaphysically significant long before the spell in "Chosen", since it's that split in the line that would be responsible for the First. It would also have meant that Faith's appearance could have been more significant to the arc itself, and that they could have cleaned up the "just how can a new Slayer be called" issue.

2. Spike: Spike's arc needed to be reworked. Firstly, the plan for him by the First should have been *central* to that arc. Basing it on "Amends", the writers should have made it the fact that Spike was a vampire with a soul the reason it wanted him. Contrive some reason why the First needed to corrupt a vampire with a soul to its side to win.

It obviously wanted to corrupt Angel, and it failed. Build backwards, and have the First realize that it failed with Angel because he already had a network, ties to his goodness. With Spike, it could have seen the opportunity to corrupt him as being worth pursuing because he didn't have that yet. Basically, use Spike as the man-caught-in-the-middle all season, struggling between the drive to be good and evil. Have the major payoff to his character arc, late in the season, be resolving this in favor of him being a champion. Related to this, some changes to the Spuffy arc...

3. Spuffy: Because in this version of Season 7, Spike is at war with the First's intentions for him and his love for Buffy, the big drive of the Spuffy arc that season should have been shifted. Rather than having Buffy declare her belief in him in 7.09, save that to near the end of the season, before or in lieu of the "I love you". You do this because, in this version of the First's plan, Buffy realizing she believes in him is part of what frees him from the First's influence just in time to turn the tide. You can still do the "I love you", but the "I believe in you" was very premature. Especially since Buffy struggling to accept him would have been a great way to play on her emotional distance through the season.

4. Buffy's Speeches: No more of them after "Bring On The Night", period. The pacing of the season is very uneven, and as a result, despite Buffy saying that they were an army and were going to seek out their worst fears... they never did. They instead did what they always do, sit around and wait to be attacked. As a result, more speeches from Buffy. How about instead, we get some awesomeness, even in montage form, of Buffy and the gang being hands on training the potentials? Scenes like the one of Buffy and Faith breaking in to that vamp nest and cleaning house? The gang should have become much more proactive after "Bring on the Night", coordinating hunting every night. A new way of doing business, something more like the teaser to "Bargaining" with the gang hunting with the Buffybot.

5. The Potentials/New Characters: Less of them. Since Season 8 wouldn't have happened yet, I disregard it when I say... fewer potentials. I think the peril is greater if the idea is that there were only 100 or 200 of these girls to begin with, and then you can also reduce the number that come to Sunnydale. Realistically, there probably should have been no more than 12 or 15 in Sunnydale, and only 5 or 6 speaking parts.

Wood can be done away with completely. Since in this version, Spike's major arc is fueled by internal conflict, and not someone else's opinion of his identity, Wood's arc would add nothing. Keep him as an ancillary character that tries to romance Buffy despite being totally out of the loop, just for some romantic conflict, but his major arc can be thrown out completely.

6. The Scythe: Introduce earlier. Around the mid-season mark. Make it a sort of mystery that they know belongs to the Slayer, and know the bad guys want, but aren't sure why. But it definitely shouldn't show up out of nowhere in 7.20.

7. Faith: When she shows up, she should be important to the plot. I kind of like the idea that, if we're exploring the split in the Slayer line, perhaps it's her and Buffy that need to be together in order to make the Scythe do what it has to, or to learn what they need to from it.

I liked what she got out of her Wood arc -- the ability to believe in relationships and trusting people. But with no Wood, it has to come from somewhere else. So, keep it, but either A) use Xander, or B) let her learn it by watching, by befriending Buffy vis a vis Spike/Buffy or Xander or Anya vis a vis Xander/Anya.

8. Caleb: Introduce earlier. Again, around midseason. I actually had an idea that you could introduce him as a nominal ally, but ambiguous (the way Wood was early on), and discover later that he's been having a similar struggle to Spike. Then, when Spike is won over for sure to Buffy's side, the First claims Caleb, and you have him again as the big showdown for Buffy, but with time to have gotten attached to him.

9. The First: Non-corporeal is fine, but insubstantial isn't -- the thing would have been better if it could still affect the world around it, magically or some other way.

10. The Scoobies: MOAR! It's not that they didn't have the screentime, it's that nothing happened with it. After "Selfless", there is little or no serious character development and drama around Willow, Xander, Anya, or Dawn for the rest of the season. It's there in spots, and Willow gets an episode, but it's just not enough. They are sort of there on auto-pilot, and the writers clearly take for granted that we were going to fill the gaps in the storytelling ourselves and assume they were doing other things. Don't do that! Have them teaching, have them fighting, all of it. They should have been the Majors and Colonels in Buffy's army (as they are in Season 8), and not just background characters there to remind us that there were less crazy, more intimate stories in the Buffyverse.

Those are the 10 major points I can think of, but I'm sure it's not exhaustive.

[Daihrin]

Well, I really liked that last post by KoC, it was well done. I never said that S7 couldn't be improved, because it really could have used some tightening on most areas. I'm the first one to admit that seasons 2 through 5 were better than 7, and you'll even probably hear me say that much of 6 and even parts of 1 outweigh the latter half of S7. But, in any event, your ideas for improvement were nigh universally good ones, especially the point everyone (including myself) has about the lack of general Scooby-ness.

The only thing I really had an issue with was this:

9. The First: Non-corporeal is fine, but insubstantial isn't -- the thing would have been better if it could still affect the world around it, magically or some other way.

I don't mind it being insubstantial as well as incorporeal as long as it was actually persuasive in its arguments and attacks against the protagonists, like it initially was regarding Spike. A manipulative force of ultimate evil is truly a force to be reckoned with, even if it lacks the power to physically change things itself.

Oh, and just to clarify: the point of the topic was to generate some actual discussion regarding S7, since in my months of lurking the forums, I've seen countless examples of "S7 sux" or "Dude, S7 pwns," albeit not quite in those words, without many delving into their reasoning.

[kassyopeia]

5. The Potentials/New Characters[/b]: Less of them. Since Season 8 wouldn't have happened yet, I disregard it when I say... fewer potentials. I think the peril is greater if the idea is that there were only 100 or 200 of these girls to begin with, and then you can also reduce the number that come to Sunnydale. Realistically, there probably should have been no more than 12 or 15 in Sunnydale, and only 5 or 6 speaking parts.
There only were 7 speaking parts, actually, not counting the two lambs for the slaughter (Annabelle and Shannon).
I'd say the problem was more one of character quality than one of quantity. None of the speaking potentials were established, let alone developed, as characters, Kennedy being the obvious exception. This becomes very clear in reading the scripts - several times, one of the actresses seems to have been unavailable, so her lines simply get transferred to another. And there's no way to tell on screen, because they're just so generic.
The recurring Sunnydale High students of the early seasons were effortlessly introduced and developed without distracting from the core characters, so we can't even blame this on lack of screen-time.

Excellent list. I especially like your points re Wood and Caleb, and am now thinking that going all the way and combining them into a single character would have been so much better. "Lies My Parents" could easily have been reworked to provide a natural impetus for him to join The First, and - unlike all the lame oh-it's-(not)-The-First reveals - would make an interesting twist: Suspicious character, turns out to be good guy, turns bad. And, early romantic interest turning into nemesis, mirrors the Angelus arc, once more "back to the beginning".

[fitri]

Season seven is just a mess for me really. It's still Buffy so I can still find things enjoyable from it, but in comparison to other seasons I think it pales and perhaps why I'm so angry about it is that it was supposed to be the finale season and it didn't deliver. I'll break it down roughly as to what my main problems are;

Inconsistencies:

As you say, this is a lot of people's problems with the season. I think there are far too many. Just to name a few;

1) What were the First's plans for Spike? It was never even stated. We had so many bloody episodes focused on it "Sleeper" "Never Leave Me" "Bring on the Night" "Showtime" "Lies My Parents Told Me" and so much talk about it, but we never even found out what the plans for Spike actually were? Not once. The First apparently had plans for him, yet it's foolish enough to draw attention to the fact it's using Spike by having him kill and sire a bunch of people? It was just silly.

2) Was that Joyce, what did Joyce mean? It was never followed up on. I believe Joss said it wasn't her but that's not good enough. Fans shouldn't have to rely on external sources to understand what's going on in the show, it should be made clear and addressed within the context of the series. And it never was, and the whole plot point behind it was never addressed either.

3) "My death would make you the next slayer." Not only is it a silly line seeing as how we didn't get one after Buffy died in 'The Gift' but it makes you wonder if the same people were even writing these episodes or had even watched the series.

4) The Beljoxas eye telling Giles and Anya Buffy's death screwed up the slayer line. This was never brought up again, not once. It was never explained, never used as a plot point for Buffy to give her some internal struggle, just nothing. Why even bring something up if you're just going to drop it?

5) The Turok Han being incredibly hard to kill in 'Bring on the Night' and 'Showtime' and easy to kill, even for humans in 'Chosen.'

6) Spike being drowned under what by the Uber Vamp? Ah he doesn't breath...

The First:

Just a lame villain. It couldn't touch or effect anything and the only thing it could do was try and twist and manipulate but it failed terribly at that. Over the years there's many things fans have thought up that could have been used for the First. We could have had it appear as Spike while Buffy as taking a bath, we could have had it appear as Jenny to Giles to make him fear Spike, we could have had it been used as Hank to really dig in at Buffy ect. But instead it was used terribly and to great lame effect. Buffy was right to make fun of it in 'Chosen.' It did nothing.

Lack of Scoobies:

It was the finale season, we had Giles back and yet he might as well have not even been there. The show started with Buffy/Xander/Willow/Giles and especially with the three kids, they've been there from start to finish. People like Xander deserved a storyline and yet they got absolutely nothing. It was atrocious how little part he got in 'Chosen' I believe even SMG voiced her opinion on that in an interview, claiming she believed that the finale should have been two hours long and that Xander should have got more of a part. And Giles did nothing either.

Too much Spike:

Accuse me of Spike hate all you want, but I'll stick by it. When people like Xander and Giles got nothing I personally think it's quite bad they gave Spike so much. Not only did we have at least three episodes centred completely around him ('Sleeper' 'Never Leave Me' and 'Lies My Parents Told Me'.. even arguably 'Bring on the Night') and not *one* focused on Xander or Giles, but if he wasn't in a scene other characters were talking about him. It was pretty much just Spike.. Spike.. Spike. Buffy pretty much talked about nothing but Spike, her and Giles only really talked when it was conflict about Spike ect.

The Potentials:

Generally I think they lacked anything really. Great idea on paper but poorly executed. And I think it comes down to the general lack of effort by the writers in season seven. I think the slayers in season 8 are written far better and are far more likeable. All the potentials did was whine, bitch or look scared. They brought nothing, offered nothing to the table and yet took up so much screen time in the finale season of the series.

Buffy:

There wasn't enough down to get an insight into what was going on with her. As a result you see a lot of fans hating her that season and even still hating her as a result of it. They're doing something wrong if they manage to make a large section of fans despise the star of the show. If we only got a few more scenes like the Buffy scene of her crying as she washes the dishes in season five, maybe people would sympathise with her more.

Cheap Plot Devices:

The fact that the only reason the Scoobies even won against the First was because Angel brought over an amulet introduced on his series is pitiful. It was cheap, it was out of the blue and saved their asses because the writers had backed them into a corner. As was the spell to make all the slayers. It doesn't make sense, how did Buffy suddenly have a revelation that the scythe could be used to do this after talking with the First, it was just silly. And the Scythe should have been introduced a lot earlier to give proper set up to it.

General lack of Buffyness:

IMO, the season seriously lacked the spark and wit that made Buffy great. I felt this way somewhat in season six as well but that season had a lot more going for it than season seven did. It was boring dialogue with boring scenes and generally it was pretty boring in how they edited and directed the episodes as well. The series had prided itself on how it made something special each week but by the time season seven had come around it had dwindled it just being another show. Where other shows were far superior in terms of direction, writing and cinematography.

And just other little things. Like in 'Lies My Parents Told Me' with the writers pretty much screwing over *everything* the show had done with Buffy's character in the past six years. A major part of the show's entire pitch and theme was that Buffy was *chosen* to battle vampires. She never had a choice, hence the constant battle between a normal life and slayerhood. In this episode they have Spike say that a slayer "signs up for it" as if it's her fault and what's worse, they offer no rebutal for such a blatant remark that contradicts everything they've set up for seven years.

I agree with every single thing. Bravo.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Even so, this is the season that gave us The First saying "It's not about good. It's not about evil. It's about power" while morphing from one Big Bad to another;

That was the only time in the entire season, barring some of Conversations with Dead People, and the Andrew/Warren talks, that I actually enjoyed the First Evil. But it set up its "it's about power" stall but never sold us any delicious cakes from it.


I'm pretty sure The First's plan for Spike was exactly what happened. By telling everybody that it had a plan for Spike, it stirred up fear and paranoia and hatred, and eventually drove Giles and Wood to betray Buffy and commit attempted murder. There was no plan for Spike to "do something" as such; the entire plan was to increase the amount of evil in the world. The plan worked.

That may be true, may be not - cos we never find out. But the trouble is, it didn't work narratively. It ended up being a boy who cried wolf of a plot, because there's only so many ways that you can say "Spike is really important and I'm going to do something awesomely evil with him" without delivering before people get bored. It's like Lost. I kept expecting we'd find out what he was going to do with Spike, that there would be some reason behind it all... but instead, the plot just seems to trail off. Unless the First's plan was to get Spike to sacrifice himself and be brought back to life in W&H becuase he was in league with Linsday...?



Oh, and just to clarify: the point of the topic was to generate some actual discussion regarding S7, since in my months of lurking the forums, I've seen countless examples of "S7 sux" or "Dude, S7 pwns," albeit not quite in those words, without many delving into their reasoning.

There have been quite a few discussions of season 7 in detail lately, but I think they might have been dead-threaded. There was an interesting one about what we could've done (if we were writing it) to make it better. Hmm...poke around in dead threads a bit?

[Nina]

I agree with pretty much every thin Vampmogs already pointed out. There was just one thing that annoyed me a lot as well;

The way the writers saved Buffy every single time.
Buffy has no rational reason to keep Spike alive, still it turns out that she was right to keep in with the group because he saves the day in the end. The only reason why Spike stopped being a danger and being the hero was because of the writers. Buffy didn't knew that when she wanted to keep Spike with her, her reasons were selfish.

Buffy's plan in Empty Places sounded like a stupid one, her reasoning wasn't right and still it worked out fine. Again, it didn't make sense ... but Buffy was right. Those stupid scoobies were wrong, picking Faith to be the leader instead of Buffy. And why did Buffy get the slayerdream (or was it just intuition? I don't remember) but Faith didn't get the same dream?

And Chosen was of course doomed to fail, still it worked.



And another tiny point was the way Buffy won back the trust of her friends. Faith fails and Buffy doesn't and everybody is best friends again? How does that work? To compare this with Ats season 2 were Angel is being an arrogant idiot who was being mean to his friends ... he had to work hard to win back a place in the team where Wesley was still the leader. Just saving them wasn't enough, he had to earn their trust and friendship again. The fact that Angel did that is probably the reason why people didn't hate him after season 2. If the writers did the same with Buffy, people would probably like her much more than they do now. When Buffy got back in the team, it felt like the scoobies should've been grateful that Buffy did come back to lead them. Also Spike's speech in Touched looked a lot like one of the speeches of a director that tried to get his diva back on stage.

[kassyopeia]

the writers saved Buffy every single time.
Didn't they do that on purpose? I mean, the way they had "Empty Places" play out reads as "She is the Chosen One, providence is on her side, just trust her intuition" to me, five-by-five. If that wasn't what they were going for, they really really failed.

[vampmogs]

This one I actually kind of liked -- at least to a point. I liked Dawn never really knowing whether it was Joyce or not, but I agree that the plot idea needed to be drawn out more thoroughly.

I don't think I would have minded as much if we didn't ever find out if it was really Joyce or not, but the plot idea behind it should have been explored more. It should have been used far more not only to give Dawn a storyline that season which unfortunately she lacked, but to give some backstory to the Buffy/Dawn divide in 'Empty Places.'

What I never understood is why nobody ever complains about vampires smoking...

The way I saw it was that a vampire can choose to breath if they want. So Spike can blow out air, he just doesn't need to. Which is why the smoking is ok to me whereas the drowning scene isn't, because there's no chance in hell Spike needs to a) breathe or b) want to breath under those circumstances.

I wouldn't say the First was a lame villain -- I'd just say it was a poorly executed villain. I can see your point, but purely as a concept, I'd say the First ranks near the top of my Scare-O-Meter, personally.

I think the First was a lot like the potentials, a great idea but not executed well. I also liked the concept behind it and really liked the first in 'Amends' where I found it a far more effective and interesting villian.

I'm inclined to agree with that statement, even if I really like Spike. I think, for Spike's character, the season was amazingly done, and I think Willow advanced in a fairly understandable direction as well. I would argue that Xander did have somewhat of an arc, though it was rather subtle. The whole "heart" thing that he's had since, well, the beginning of the series (most notably in S4, I think...) really appeared very strongly here, and his changing relationships with both Dawn and more significantly Anya helped propel the character's story to heights we haven't seen in high doses since S3, really. As for Giles? Well, you have a point there.

What bugged me so much about Xander's arc was that the guy looses an eye and yet it still doesn't give him much to work with. The whole plot was to advance Buffy's character and not Xander's which I just find unbelieveable seeing as how it should have been used for him more than anyone.

Yeah, I disliked Buffy in S7. But, I've kind of disliked her since S5, although I sympathized with her a great deal more then. After the Adam/Initiative thing, she wasn't the same, and Dawn's introduction arc didn't help that. Perhaps her going through the whole Slayer-self-searching bit after her encounter with Dracula helped to drive her down the path she eventually went down? I don't know, though, I can forgive her almost as much in S7 as S6, because, when leading an all out war effort, who wouldn't try to isolate their feelings?

Buffy's my fave character so I actually still liked her, but I don't think they did enough to really show her softer side. There wasn't enough of a balance. :(

[Nina]

Didn't they do that on purpose? I mean, the way they had "Empty Places" play out reads as "She is the Chosen One, providence is on her side, just trust her intuition" to me, five-by-five. If that wasn't what they were going for, they really really failed.

Faith is also a chosen one, isn't she? Still Faith had to fail, so the writers gave Buffy the right intuition and they made Faith doing a stupid move.

I think that it's bad writing to make the hero of the show win with a not working plan, the good guys don't always win ... somehow Buffy had the luck that all her weird plans or selfish moments became good things. I think that this is lazy and bad writing.

[kassyopeia]

Faith is also a chosen one, isn't she? Still Faith had to fail, so the writers gave Buffy the right intuition and they made Faith doing a stupid move.
Yeah, it came across as "Buffy is the Chosen One, Faith is just a Slayer". But, again, it was done so blatantly that I thought that's what they were going for. If not, the writing was frighteningly bad.
the good guys don't always win
Sure they do, in this kind of series. The "Storyteller" message was full of self-irony, wasn't it? I mean, the writers can't have her say things like "This isn't some story where good triumphs because good triumphs" and not expect us to laugh about it since this is exactly what happens.

The use of self-irony is one of the more enjoyable aspects of the season, and makes up for some of the lameness to an extent IMO.

[Nina]

I did forget about 'Storyteller', but it's still bothering me I'm afraid. If they wanted Buffy to win, than gave me at least a reason to think that her plan would work. A hero who wins because she is the good guy, a person who is right because she is the main character and needs to win ... it's not working for me. But I guess that the irony makes it a little bit better.

[kassyopeia]

but it's still bothering me I'm afraid.
It's bothering me too, invoking providence is almost always a sign of poor storytelling. I just mean that it's bothering me less when they are doing it on purpose, and with a slight wink to the audience, than when they are doing it without even realizing.
It's not like Buffy is a great strategist in the earlier seasons, the Slayer is a bit of a blunt weapon after all and she mostly relies on brute force, but this element of blindly trusting her instincts is much more dominant in season 7.

[Slayer+]

Was I the only person disappointed with the fight scenes this season? Buffy vs the Turok Han in Showtime was horrible.

[sueworld]

What bugged me so much about Xander's arc was that the guy looses an eye and yet it still doesn't give him much to work with. The whole plot was to advance Buffy's character and not Xander's which I just find unbelieveable seeing as how it should have been used for him more than anyone.



As it's been said on more then one occasion Nick Brenden unfortunately had a lot of personal problems during that time, that may have started to effect his input in the show.

I have the distinct feeling thats why characters such as Andrew ended up being brought to the fore, and why they ended up being used as the character to deliver comedy quips etc. Dialog that traditionally would have goes to Xander. It may also have been one of the reasons that the storyline's didn't concentrate too heavily on him either.

[stormwreath]

I kept expecting we'd find out what he was going to do with Spike, that there would be some reason behind it all... but instead, the plot just seems to trail off. Unless the First's plan was to get Spike to sacrifice himself and be brought back to life in W&H becuase he was in league with Linsday...?Thinking about it more, I'm pretty sure that the First's plan for Spike was to throw suspicion on him, and make the other Scoobies blame Buffy for sheltering him. Ultimately, it was to drive Wood and Giles into having him killed - thus permanently embittering Buffy, making her distrustful and resentful and separating her from the group entirely.

It almost worked. 'Lies My Parents Told Me' was the climax of Spike's arc in that season.

[urbanlegend23]

Was I the only person disappointed with the fight scenes this season? Buffy vs the Turok Han in Showtime was horrible.

I think S7 had pretty awesome fight scenes, they may have not been as memorable as the ones in such episodes as Graduation Day, Part I or Primeval, but they were well-done nonetheless. I didn't see anything wrong with the fight scene in Showtime - loved the use of the construction site. I also loved Buffy's fights with Caleb - first with all the Potentials in Dirty Girls, her run-in with him that leads to her finding the scythe in Touched, and the (almost) big final sequence between the two of them in End of Days.

And it goes without saying that the fight sequence in the Hellmouth during Chosen is probably the most impressive action sequence ever seen on the show.

[vampmogs]

As it's been said on more then one occasion Nick Brenden unfortunately had a lot of personal problems during that time, that may have started to effect his input in the show.

But every scene he actually did have he knocked out of the park. The Xander/Dawn scene at the end of Potential and Xander/Anya scene at the end of Selfless are in my opinion two of the best scenes in the season. I thought his acting with Willow in the hospital during Empty Places was pretty sound as well.

Even if Xander got more of Andrew's lines that'd still be nothing to what his character should be getting. He deserves more than making a wise crack every few lines.

[sueworld]

Going by what Nick said at a con in Blackpool that I attended a few years back, he was in an increasingly bad way back then. Sometimes not being able to remember how he got home let alone what scenes he had done etc.

If an actor becomes in any way unreliable, even for short periods of time, then he can be a risk to the production in general. This sort of thing has happened before with other actors in many other shows.

Some get booted off, some have their characters 'worked around'. I think that might have been the case here.

This is why it is sometimes wise for fans to familiarize themselves with the production side of a show before shouting off about certain things. "Oh Giles is a git for leaving Buffy in season 6 etc" when we know that was due to ASH wanting more time back at his home in the UK. Sometimes real life issues help shape a story because TV shows are complex affairs with many elements that need to be delt with from day to day let alone season to season.

[kassyopeia]

This is why it is sometimes wise for fans to familiarize themselves with the production side of a show before shouting off about certain things.
I dunno. Ideally, the writers should be able to keep the character and the actor distinct. If the actor becomes less available, for whatever reason, they need to be written off the screen in as believable and in-character a way as possible. Changing a character and assuming that the audience will understand it's due to changes in the actor's life is poor craftsmanship.
But, yes, if they don't manage, it's good to know what's going on behind the scenes.

[stormwreath]

If the actor becomes less available, for whatever reason, they need to be written off the screen in as believable and in-character a way as possible. Changing a character and assuming that the audience will understand it's due to changes in the actor's life is poor craftsmanship.
But, yes, if they don't manage, it's good to know what's going on behind the scenes.But surely the only real difference to Xander was that he wasn't on screen as often: he had fewer lines and there were no big plot arcs dedicated to his character? It wasn't that either his personality or his role in the gang changed in any particular way.

Certainly not in a negative way; if anything, in S7 he was more mature, more self-confident and more adult. You could even argue that, expecially in the early part of the season, he wasn't about so much because now he had his own life going on, with a responsible career and everything.

Given Nick's presumed unreliability as an actor at this time, as Sue explains, I'm not sure what else people think should have been done with his character. Simply kill him off? I think that would have caused just as much uproar from Xander-fans. It would also have been a pretty cruel thing to do to Nicky: "Sorry you're having problems at the moment. You're fired."

Invent some plot device to take him off-screen completely for most of the time, like was done with Giles in S6? Again, unpopular with the fans, and it would kind of rely on some pay-off for the plotline, which would need top-quality acting once the moment came to resolve things... which might not be forthcoming.

Given that S7 was the last season anyway, I think keeping Xander in play but bringing up alternative characters to take some of the acting burden away from NB was probably the best thing they could have done.

[kassyopeia]

But surely the only real difference to Xander was that he wasn't on screen as often: he had fewer lines and there were no big plot arcs dedicated to his character? It wasn't that either his personality or his role in the gang changed in any particular way.
Yeah, I was just addressing sue's point in general, really. I don't feel that Xander got reduced more than Willow or Giles in season 7, so I'm not convinced Brendon's personal problems had that much to do with the way the character was written.

In general, season 7 does this weird thing of doubling up the traditional Scooby roles. Where we used to have brainy-Willow, we get Willow and Dawn. Where we used to have Xander, we get Xander and Andrew. Where we used to have Giles, we get Giles and Wood. Where we used to have Faith, we get Faith and Kennedy. Not sure if that's what they intended, but it's pretty much how it plays out.

[sueworld]

Well for what It's worth I don't think his role was so much reduced, but changed somewhat. He was less 'quippy /funny guy' as that seem to fall to Andrews Character.

I dunno. Ideally, the writers should be able to keep the character and the actor distinct. If the actor becomes less available, for whatever reason, they need to be written off the screen in as believable and in-character a way as possible.

Well sadly you can't keep character and actor separated when it comes to availability, or whether or not they have outside problems that is either effecting their performance or making them unreliable for whatever reason. It's just not how it's done sadly. I feel that Nicks situation was delt with as best as it could be, and the same goes for ASH in season six.

[kassyopeia]

I feel that Nicks situation was delt with as best as it could be, and the same goes for ASH in season six.
Yeah, but people who say "Giles is a git for leaving Buffy in season 6" may still be aware of the real-world reasons for removing the character from the series for a while and simply feel that the reason the writers gave him for leaving was not in character. That was sort of my point. :)

[sueworld]

Thing is I'm not sure what else they could have done really. ASH wanted out and they had to deal with it somehow.

[kassyopeia]

Thing is I'm not sure what else they could have done really.
The possibilities are endless. I mean, this wasn't a sudden development, they knew he was going to be written off since at least the start of the season.

[sueworld]

Yes, but they happen to choose this one, and I must be in a minority because I don't really have any problem with it really.

I think If it had been for some other reason there would have been a section of fandom that wouldn't have had issues with it.

The old 'can't please everyone all of the time' saying comes to mind. :lol:

[Wolfie Gilmore]

The possibilities are endless. I mean, this wasn't a sudden development, they knew he was going to be written off since at least the start of the season.

Some random thoughts on how Giles’s absence might’ve been played to more dramatic effect…

Let’s say season seven was going to be rewritten to make the First Evil better/a completely different villain…Giles’ departure could’ve been linked in to the setup of season 7. Perhaps the council were proving problematic and he wanted to go and sort them out. Something that meant he had to go away for the greater good, and that good clashed with the personal good of helping Buffy through her depression? So you get the opposition of Buffy’s “personal” approach and Giles’s “greater good” approach, which could be explored more fully in the next season – with Buffy ending up on the greater good side, but having a different idea of what “greater good” entails to Giles’s version? I think if they were going to make Buffy and Giles to at each other’s throats that season, they should’ve done so with more conviction. Perhaps had both Buffy and Giles fighting the same enemy, but doing so in opposition to one another?

So, you’d have Giles coming back at the end of season 6, despatching Willow, but through season 7, you’d get a sense of him working apart from Buffy, perhaps hiding things from her, even maybe training up potentials with a view to stopping Buffy if she became a problem (he’s already seen Willow nearly destroy the world, so perhaps he might think Buffy posed a similar threat). Perhaps have him, during season 6, working with a splinter group of the council who don’t represent Quentin et al’s reactionary patriarchal badness…perhaps the Devon Coven (Doven!), but who make him aware that Buffy’s ad hoc way of doing things could potentially be dangerous?

[buffyholic]

I love S7 and frankly, I don´t know why so much hate. And I don´t know why people hate Buffy here. I mean, she is fascinating here. She´s very battle-worn, very serious and she has to deal with the lives of the Potentials and defeating the First. On top of that, people around here just whine and expect her to do everything and of course, sometimes she does wrong decisions. And Willow and Spike are holding back their strenght, so yeah she is bound to be cranky.

I agree that there are flaws, like the First is poorly explained or there are a lot of Potentials. But come on, this season is still awesome!

Qualities.
Themes of power and leadership, and female empowerement.
Buffy´s arc
Spike´s arc
Willow
Kennedy
Faith
The idea of the Potentials and Buffy passing down her knowledge
Great stories with great episodes, like The Killer in Me, Get it Done (a personal favourite), Help, Touched and more.
Amazing standalones, like LMPTM, Chosen, CWDP, Selfless
Andrew

So, although not the best, S7 is still an amazing season. I still have some problems with it, but the positives are worth it.

[NileQT87]

personally, my LEAST favorite season 7 plot point is in get it done (and not the shadow rape's coloring of chosen)... it goes against everything buffy ever experienced with angel and his soul.

this scene angers me beyond measure--what a heartless b*tch:

Spike: Out. Since I'm neither a girl, nor waiting. All this speechifying doesn't really apply to me, does it?
Buffy: Fine. Take a cell phone. That way, if I need someone to get weepy or whaled on, I can call you.
Spike: If you've got something to say...
Buffy: Just said it. You keep holding back, you might as well walk out that door.
Spike: Holding back? You're blind. I've been here, right in it... fighting, scrapping...
Buffy: Since you got your soul back?
Spike: Well, as a matter of fact, I haven't quite been relishing the kill the way I used to.
Buffy: You were a better fighter then.
Spike: I did this for you. The soul, the changes; it's what you wanted.
Buffy: What I want is the Spike that's dangerous. The Spike that tried to kill me when we met.
Spike: Oh, you don't know how close you are to bringing him out.
Buffy: I'm nowhere near him.

this is the dialog that causes spike to get nikki wood's coat out of storage and act like soulless spike for most of the rest of the season. is this some demonic first slayer talking or buffy? because this probably caused spike to take several steps back in development. he didn't recover from this insult until halfway through ats. no wonder spike didn't think she loved him. no wonder spike was too scared to tell her he was alive in harm's way. she certainly didn't give a crap about william. she cared more about the demon than the human.

[sueworld]

Well it seems the writers were unconsciously pushing the idea that to be successful in battle a women must act like a man, and be hard. She wanted strong warriors around her, not folks seeking redemption.

Something I didn't agree with, but there ya go.

[KingofCretins]

I think it was the exact wrong way to take Spike, as well. First of all, it made Buffy into a "I believe heinous bitch is the term used most often" to basically ignore the process that she had theretofore been so supportive of and believing in and all that basically because she was in a foul mood. Secondly, though, it took Spike in the wrong direction as well. The implication is that Spike *can't* be a strong warrior and still morally contemplative in his new soul -- what does that say about Angel?

Basically, at some point Joss or Marti decided that the peoples must have their ridiculous hard-rock fanboy moment of Spike getting his slayerskin jacket out and being all Season 2 looking for a second, and blew off what it actually said about the two characters involved in getting him to that place.

Related to that, I think it was a mistake to have Spike re-bleach his hair. It was only part of his conflicted attempt to "be" pre-soul Spike again in "Beneath You", which was a storyline that didn't even last the entire episode. There could have been another way to approach it. Spike should have been kept in his semi-William state from "Lessons" onward. Not only is it more in line with what we know of the vampire-with-a-soul process (Angel changed his *name*, forget just his hairstyle), James Marters probably would have appreciated it as well.

[stormwreath]

I don't feel that Xander got reduced more than Willow or Giles in season 7, so I'm not convinced Brendon's personal problems had that much to do with the way the character was written.But arguably, similar concerns applied to them too. Tony Head was still only working part-time, so they were restricted in what they could do with him. As for Alyson, I thought that Willow had such a major arc in Season 6 that it was probably fair for her to step back a little. She still had two major episodes devoted to her - 'Same Time, Same Place' and 'The Killer In Me' - and plenty of character development.

I do like your observation about doubling up the character roles in S7. :2party:


So, you’d have Giles coming back at the end of season 6, despatching Willow, but through season 7, you’d get a sense of him working apart from Buffy, perhaps hiding things from her, even maybe training up potentials with a view to stopping Buffy if she became a problem You mean, doing what he seems to be doing in S8, but one season earlier? ;)

[sueworld]

Related to that, I think it was a mistake to have Spike re-bleach his hair. It was only part of his conflicted attempt to "be" pre-soul Spike again in "Beneath You", which was a storyline that didn't even last the entire episode. There could have been another way to approach it. Spike should have been kept in his semi-William state from "Lessons" onward. Not only is it more in line with what we know of the vampire-with-a-soul process (Angel changed his *name*, forget just his hairstyle), James Marters probably would have appreciated it as well.

I believe that they wanted 'Spike the bad boy icon' back again, and that the feedback that they'd been getting uptil then wasn't all that encouraging. Spike had become one of the verse most famous vampires and his image was part of that, so hey wanted to keep that going.

It's the same as If you'd taken Angel and dyed his hair ginger or something and stuck him in a white leather coat. Wouldn't feel the same really. I hate to say this, but you also have to think of the merchandise. They love characters who keep to one look.

[stormwreath]

Well it seems the writers were unconsciously pushing the idea that to be successful in battle a women must act like a man, and be hard. She wanted strong warriors around her, not folks seeking redemption. What makes you think the writers were presenting this as the right way to behave?

The whole overriding story arc of S7 is that Buffy was getting more and more desperate and isolated, and treating the people around her more harshly, until eventually she drove almost all of them away. Yes, at this point Buffy thought that "to be successful in battle a women must act like a man". She'd been listening to Giles and Wood telling her that so often that she'd come to believe it herself.

The point of 'Touched', 'End of Days' and 'Chosen' was to show Buffy realising that that approach was old-fashioned and wrong. She took a new approach, decided to share her power instead and empower all the other women, and so was triumphant.

I do sympathise with her in 'Get It Done', though. She'd just carried the corpse of a teenage girl out into the woods and dug a grave for her; it's understandable if she was feeling a little cranky.

And there she was, fighting for her life and the lives of everyone around her, and it seemed that all of them (except Kennedy, fair play to her) were just sitting around waiting to be told what to do. None of them were showing initiative, none of them were pulling their weight. Yeah, maybe poor woobie Spike needed more time to come to terms with his soul. Poor baby. It wouldn't do anyone much good if The First started the apocalypse while Spike was sitting in the dark brooding.

The implication is that Spike *can't* be a strong warrior and still morally contemplative in his new soul -- what does that say about Angel?Early Season 1 Angel was just as useless in a fight as early Season 7 Spike, though. Angel got over it...

[stormwreath]

It's the same as If you'd taken Angel and dyed his hair ginger or something and stuck him in a white leather coat. Wouldn't feel the same really. :roll:
No kidding... :)

[sueworld]

What makes you think the writers were presenting this as the right way to behave?

Oh they might have, although after hearing Drew Goddards comments on writing for season 7 I'm not so sure. With Joss's eyes elsewhere I'm not sure what the writers intentions were half the time. Many elements of season seven seemed very chaotic to say the least.


The point of 'Touched', 'End of Days' and 'Chosen' was to show Buffy realising that that approach was old-fashioned and wrong. She took a new approach, decided to share her power instead and empower all the other women, and so was triumphant.


Or some would say acting more like a traditional male in that she wasn't asking she as dictating what should be done to these girls. Remember the discussions that we've all had on this board about that, and the fact that some women on here don't see what Buffy did as all that empowering really. :lol:

[Wolfie Gilmore]

You mean, doing what he seems to be doing in S8, but one season earlier? ;)


Sort of, but doing it more explicitly - perhaps kidding himself at first that he's protecting Buffy, but then making it clear to himself - and others - that he's actually acting apart from Buffy because he doesn't trust her to handle power on a larger scale. Not that he doesn't trust her to make hard choices so much as that he doesn't trust her to understand the implications of those choices. Perhaps along the lines that Willow was a problem because she craved power, while Buffy's a problem because she doesn't know her own strength.

[kassyopeia]

Themes of power and leadership, and female empowerement.
The idea of the Potentials and Buffy passing down her knowledge

Yes, those were good concepts. The problem I and many others have with the season is that they were so badly developed and executed that the mere potential contained within the concepts didn't really help any.
The implication is that Spike *can't* be a strong warrior and still morally contemplative in his new soul -- what does that say about Angel?
And there she was, fighting for her life and the lives of everyone around her, and it seemed that all of them (except Kennedy, fair play to her) were just sitting around waiting to be told what to do. None of them were showing initiative, none of them were pulling their weight. Yeah, maybe poor woobie Spike needed more time to come to terms with his soul. Poor baby. It wouldn't do anyone much good if The First started the apocalypse while Spike was sitting in the dark brooding.
I'm totally with stormwreath on this one. Buffy was being harsh, yes, but for a good reason. She knows it would be best for Willow and Spike, fragile as they are at that point of their lifes' journeys, to be kept out of the fight. But she needs them to stop the end of the world, so she doesn't let that influence her overly much. She says what she says in "Get It Done" because she thinks it's what they need to hear, not because she doesn't care. "Get It Done" is definitely one of the better episodes of the season as far as the arc is concerned IMO. I really like the scene right after Buffy comes back, for instance, it's a perfect Scooby moment. Everyone stepped up to the challenge and was equal to it, they worked together and got it done, and all of them look more or less worse for wear. This should have been a really uplifting and restorative experience, almost on par with the Joining spell in "Primeval". But, no, the writers don't want that yet because there has to be a lot more falling out before the finale, so none of the characters are allowed to get anything out of it. Argh.

The joy in fighting that Spike rediscovers here isn't something that has to run contrary to his moral growth. It's an important aspect in Buffy's development over the course of the series too. She learns to embrace the darkness within, while recognizing it for what it is, and certainly becomes a better fighter for it. I like that aspect a lot.
I'm not sure what the writers intentions were half the time. Many elements of season seven seemed very chaotic to say the least.
That sums up the season arc quite nicely, as far as I'm concerned. :)

[watcher1006]

I can't apply the word "hate" to any of the seasons of Buffy. I am glad that we have seven seasons of the show instead of five, and glad that we have seven seasons of the show rather than six. But I do think that the show was fading creatively in the last two seasons. I somehow suspect that if there had been a Season 8 on TV, or even a Season 9, the criticisms would have continued to build. It's much better for a great show to end while it retains its high quality, rather than at a time when the former fans say "it's about time".

Well sadly you can't keep character and actor separated when it comes to availability, or whether or not they have outside problems that is either effecting their performance or making them unreliable for whatever reason.

Yes, when you deal with a TV show with real actors, you have to deal with the people who create the characters, which affects the stories and the mix on screen. Personality issues, actors wanting more screen time, actors wanting less commitment so they can pursue other projects. All of those problems tend to accummulate as a show goes on season after season. At first I didn't like the idea of trying to continue BtVS in comic form, but now I realize that there are possibilities available in comics because you don't have those people problems and aren't limited by the show's budget. On the other hand, there is such a degree of freedom in comics that it is possible to lose sight of what made the show what it was.

There are many excellent points made on this thread regarding Season 7 which I would like to comment on as well, but I just want to make a few of my own here.

I thought that the Season felt rushed, that there were too many ideas in the mix and a lot of stuff wasn't fully developed because there just wasn't time. The revelation of Bejloxa's Eye was pointed out earlier here. But there was stuff like Buffy meeting the Guardian in "End Of Days". They barely start having a conversation when Caleb comes up behind her and kills her. It seemed like a trivialization of an idea which might have been an underlying tenet of the show's mythology. A Guardian through the ages, killed just like that. The Scythe - I first heard from Joss Whedon himself (I think he said it at the Paleyfest) that it came from the Fray series of comics. Those who were fans of Fray would have recognized it and smiled but for those fans like me who had never heard of that series it seemed like a gift from heaven (or whatever). There were lots of problems with the final battle in "Chosen". Some of them can be forgiven for lack of time and production limitations, but also there seemed to be more ideas than could be handled. Like when Buffy is stabbed from behind, falls and passes the Scythe to Faith and commands her to hold the line, and the First appears to Buffy as herself and taunts her with "Oh, no… ow! Mommy, this mortal wound is all… itchy..." That part looked to me like it was from another line of thinking of how the finale should go. But that's trivial compared to the problem I had at the end due to Spike and the amulet destroying the Hellmouth. I found myself asking "whose victory was it anyway?"

[kana]

As for the Spike Get it Done issue, I believe Buffy was a little harsh on him, but her attitude wasn't exclusive to Spike. Here is a 22 year-old girl feeling the pressure of having to take care of everyone. She feels she doesn't have the luxury of waiting for Spike et al to have their epiphany and strike that perfect balance.

I think Nile may have said earlier that Spike was still in the mode of doing everything for Buffy. Whether quiet and meek or badass, he wasn't doing it for himself but for Buffy. There are two schools of fans. Some believe Spike made strides forward and the beginning of the Season but then regressed in Get it Done. Some believe the opposite is true. I actually think that he was somewhat inert in his development, it was all about being what he thought Buffy wanted, whether it be badass Spike or Angel-lite Spike. He made his greatest strides as a soulled vampire in Season 5 of Ats.

[sueworld]

That part looked to me like it was from another line of thinking of how the finale should go. But that's trivial compared to the problem I had at the end due to Spike and the amulet destroying the Hellmouth. I found myself asking "whose victory was it anyway?"

On the face of it pretty much Spikes at that point. Don't get me started on the end of Chosen! :lol:

Despite all the special effects it felt very much like a rushed affair. I didn't like the huge plot holes in the story and the fact that it really left me with a kind of 'Is that it??' feeling at the end.

Lord I wish Joss had had his eyes on the prize more at this point. I don't know If to blame all it's problems on Joss being too distracted the shiny new toy called Firefly, or the fact that he was already burnt out with the Buffyverse.

[Koos]

Themes of power and leadership, and female empowerement.
Buffy´s arc
Spike´s arc

I don't like Spike's arc at all, I loath it, but I can understand why people like it. But Buffy's arc was horrible. There's is no way I can see what was so great about it. In Chosen I couldn't give a damn about her at her at all anymore. I couldn't relate to her anymore, I couldn't feel for her anymore. The only character to whom I could give a damn about. I couldn't even get angry about her anymore.

Faith

Don't see that either. Th first thing she has to do is to smoke and is flirting with Spike in the basement. She is still not on terms with Buffy. There's been shown that she not Buffy's equal. She failed in making the right decision, even if it was the good one. At her past issues with the scoobies has been entirely ignored. Faith had a great arc in AtS, but definitely not in BtVS.

Touched.
I can't express enough how much I loath that episode. It was horribly written and absolutely loath Spike's arrogance and hypocricy in that episode. I dislike all the sexscenes, especially considering that is to emphasise the non-sex between S6 XXX-rated pornstar couple Buffy/Spike and the other couples. Discusting and extremely disrespectfull to all of the other characters.

Amazing standalones, like LMPTM
Yeah, that was a great episode for Giles' amazing arc this season. Not.


Chosen
One episode filled with crap. Spike burning his ass off? I guess that is for 11 year old Spuffygirlfans. That's fanbase they were writing for the last four episodes.

[sueworld]

One episode filled with crap. Spike burning his ass off? I guess that is for 11 year old Spuffygirlfans. That's fanbase they were writing for the last four episodes.

Not much of a Spike fan, huh? :roll::roll::roll:

I don't think the writers were aiming this at just the Spuffies. If they were doing that they wouldn't have done half a dozen things, including bring Angel back for a quick snog right at the last knockings. :roll:

[Koos]

Not much of a Spike fan, huh? :roll::roll::roll:

I don't think the writers were aiming this at just the Spuffies. If they were doing that they wouldn't have done half a dozen things, including bring Angel back for a quick snog right at the last knockings. :roll:

Ha, it wouldn't be much fun for Spuffy fans without Angel, would it? He brings in the needed competition (I mean, Wood wasn't really competition). Afterall, it makes Spike jealous, and that is cute. I know I would like that if I were a Spuffyfan. Anyway, Angel was only there for the fact that Spike needed to get into Angel's show. And what better way than to stir up some Spike/Angel rivalry.

It's funny on the Spike hatred. I don't think I don't even hate him that much. He was one of my favorite character during BtVS S4, and I even watched AtS 5 because of Spike (I used to watch only for Cordy).

I just really loath Spuffy. I dislike his S6/S7 arc. I don't like how he is been used. And I really don't like how his arc has been pushed through during S7 like it was the only thing that mattered and the worst part: over the backs of the other characters. And that in return adds to the Spuffyloathing. So, no, it's not Spike disliking so much. Spike's only reason for the show in S6/S7 was for Spuffy, so it makes it looks like I'm loathing Spike as well (including myself). It is Spuffy that I loath.

[sueworld]

And that in return adds to the Spuffy loathing.

Oh thats a shame. I can honestly say that there isn't any ship that I would use the word 'loathe' in conjunction with. I disliked the potentials that season, but thats about it.

[Sosa lola]

I would have enjoyed a scene between Xander and Faith, especially that they were in one team outside in Dirty Girls. It could have been easy to work a scene in there. Alas.

[vampmogs]

I would have enjoyed a scene between Xander and Faith, especially that they were in one team outside in Dirty Girls. It could have been easy to work a scene in there. Alas.

Agreed. It bugged me a lot with Faith that she had nearly nothing to do with the Scoobies in general. We got a scene with her and Spike (which I know was used because of the proposed spin off with these two) but they had very little history together, and then they developed her relationship with Wood. What we didn't get was really any build on Faith/Xander and Faith/Willow which would interest me far more, given their history.

A tiny winsy bit of season 8 spoilage here;

I almost think Joss had to correct his mistake of having no tension between Willow/Faith in 'Dirty Girls' by having Willow state "Faith. Never been a fan" in 'Anywhere But Here.' That felt more accurate and real to me, than anything between them in season 7.

[buffyholic]

personally, my LEAST favorite season 7 plot point is in get it done (and not the shadow rape's coloring of chosen)... it goes against everything buffy ever experienced with angel and his soul.

this scene angers me beyond measure--what a heartless b*tch:



this is the dialog that causes spike to get nikki wood's coat out of storage and act like soulless spike for most of the rest of the season. is this some demonic first slayer talking or buffy? because this probably caused spike to take several steps back in development. he didn't recover from this insult until halfway through ats. no wonder spike didn't think she loved him. no wonder spike was too scared to tell her he was alive in harm's way. she certainly didn't give a crap about william. she cared more about the demon than the human.

But you´re missing the point of that episode. Buffy needed to be harsh like that because she needed all the strenght she needed and she had two amazing fighters that were holding back: Willow and Spike. Willow, since she came back from England, had been really cautious and doesn´t even want to mess with dangerous magics and Spike, since he got his soul back, became a weaker fighter. I like Spike but the truth is that he was weaker and I totally agree with Buffy here. She was splashing some cold water because she had to, she was the strongest there because she was the only one using her abilities to the fullest. They weren´t.
I just cannot believe how you think Buffy is a bitch here. In S7 she´s playing the general, she´s the one who has to make the hard decisions. No one else comes up with ideas or plans, so Buffy has to come up with ideas. And when her plans don´t work, they diss her. They do nothing to help. So, Get It Done got the message across to me. The First is not playing around and Buffy needs strong players by her side, she needs Willow to get over her issues and she needs a strong Spike.
This is just my opinion.

[vampmogs]

I think people's issue here is how she went about getting the best out of those around her, in particular Spike here. With Angel Buffy believed in him;

Xander: I don't like you. At the end of the day, I pretty much think you're a vampire. (lowers the cross) But Buffy's got this big old yen for you. She thinks you're a real person. And right now I need you to prove her right.

She was never trying to harden Angel, she spoke to his humanity and his heart to try and shape into something other than just a person guilt ridden by their crimes. That's what she did up on the hill in 'Amends.' With Spike she tried to appeal to his worst side, instead of supporting the progress he'd made and the changes, she told him she wanted back the guy who attempted to murder her when they first met, the vicious horrible killer. Angel’s a prefect example of an individual who can be an incredible and powerful asset to ‘good’ and was shaped and formed into that person by all of those (including Buffy) who appealed to his humanity and most certainly not Angelus.

But this is one of my problems with season seven in a nutshell. I think this one more than ever is most certainly a very personal issue but *I* didn't feel like I trusted the writers, it felt to me as if they had completely forgot about all the previous six seasons. When I watched scenes like Spike putting on the leather coat, a symbol of his most atrocious crimes, and with music playing in the background as if this was a 'cool' moment, I cringed. When they had Spike say Nikki "signed up" to be a slayer, I cringed again. When they had Buffy say "my death could make you next the slayer" I wanted to tear my hair out, when they used a rape metaphor for Buffy's female empowerment I was just at a complete loss. To me it felt as if the writers didn't stop and think about the messages they were putting across on screen, to *me* I felt like if this had been a few seasons earlier we'd have never seen the Spike/coat scene depicted in this manner ect. That’s just my personal preference but I just don’t believe, in my honest opinion, the writers actually realised what they were doing when they wrote some of these episodes.

[kassyopeia]

I just cannot believe how you think Buffy is a bitch here.
Well, she is being a bitch. That's the whole point. :)

One of my pet peeves about the season is that she displays so remarkably little psychological insight. There is a reason for the way military hierachies are organized, with NCOs bridging the gap between grunts and officers. In Kennedy and, later, Faith, Buffy had the perfect sergeant material, but she doesn't learn to delegate. "Empty Places" would have been so easy to avoid for her, not by taking different actions but simply by going about it more intelligently. Sigh.
With Spike she tried to appeal to his worst side, instead of supporting the progress he'd made and the changes, she told him she wanted back the guy who attempted to murder her when they first met, the vicious horrible killer. Angel’s a prefect example of an individual who can be an incredible and powerful asset to ‘good’ and was shaped and formed into that person by all of those (including Buffy) who appealed to his humanity and most certainly not Angelus.
I'm not sure in how far we can really compare the two, though. Spike is shown as a fighter who needs to totally unleash to exploit his potential. This is only occasionally the case for Angel.
Also, Buffy is in a totally different place as far as the two are concerned. She knows she can cope with Spike in season 7 if she needs to, which is why she's willing to push him as far as she does. She's deliberately fighting evil with evil (while saying that this cannot be done at the same time - another triumph of writing in this season).

[vampmogs]

I'm not sure in how far we can really compare the two, though. Spike is shown as a fighter who needs to totally unleash to exploit his potential. This is only occasionally the case for Angel.

I agree but at the same time her "I believe in you" gave him the strength to get through the Uber Vamps torture in 'Bring on the Night/Showtime' and repel the First's attempts and manipulation (though that's due in part in to its' apparent total lack of expertise in the area :p ) Which IMO is far more productive than basically telling him to scrap the good and get back to being the savage.

[kassyopeia]

I agree but at the same time her "I believe in you" gave him the strength to get through the Uber Vamps torture in 'Bring on the Night/Showtime' and repel the First's attempts and manipulation (though that's due in part in to its' apparent total lack of expertise in the area :p ) Which IMO is far more productive than basically telling him to scrap the good and get back to being the savage.
This is never actually alluded to, but "Get It Done" makes a lot of sense when contrasted with "The Gift". She "treat[s him] like a man", with the result that he totally fails when it counts. If he had arrived at the top of the tower with a mindset of killing the Doc, rather than rescuing Dawn, he would certainly have fared better in the fight. Since this leads to Buffy's death, I don't find it surprising that she would draw conclusions from this.

[sueworld]

As weird as it may seem I've never had in any problem with Spikes need to 'suit up' with his old duster. Spikes always been about illusion and about putting up a front to hid behind.

As awful as it may seem he needed that 'prop' to become the bad ass that she wanted him to be.

I've read many 'rants' on the Spike/duster argument all over the net, and even after reading those I still don't have a problem with it, especially as I know you have to take what the writers saw fit to do with such a famous character as spike with a pinch of salt. His look became iconic and when the general public think of Spike they think of him looking like that so to tamper with that may not be a wise move commercially.

[watcher1006]

Well, she is being a bitch. That's the whole point. :)

One of my pet peeves about the season is that she displays so remarkably little psychological insight. There is a reason for the way military hierachies are organized, with NCOs bridging the gap between grunts and officers. In Kennedy and, later, Faith, Buffy had the perfect sergeant material, but she doesn't learn to delegate. "Empty Places" would have been so easy to avoid for her, not by taking different actions but simply by going about it more intelligently. Sigh.

I've always thought that we got some foretaste of the Buffy of Season 7 in the Season 3 episode "The Wish". Commando Buffy's words to Giles: "I don't play well with others" sums up her attitude. I love "The Wish" for many reasons but one remarkable feature of the writing is the way that Faith, while she is mentioned at the beginning, never appears in the episode; yet the "Faith concept" of an isolated vampire slayer pervades the story. Xander and Willow are her mortal enemies in that alternate reality. Giles is a stranger that she pushes away, and she mostly rejects Angel's help. It made the situation so unforgettable, how Buffy is just so isolated from everyone - and the fact that as such she doesn't survive her trip to Sunnydale.

In Season 7 it sort of felt like she was shown to be in the right to isolate herself from everyone.

[Daihrin]

In Season 7 it sort of felt like she was shown to be in the right to isolate herself from everyone.

Except -- and I'm not saying this was really the right move or not -- in the end, she could only win by sharing her powers, which has always seemed to me like a metaphor for finally ending the isolation she'd been developing, well, the whole series. Maybe that's just me?

[watcher1006]

Except -- and I'm not saying this was really the right move or not -- in the end, she could only win by sharing her powers, which has always seemed to me like a metaphor for finally ending the isolation she'd been developing, well, the whole series. Maybe that's just me?

Really? Yes I agree, that seemed to have been one of the principal ideas in the mix in "Chosen". Except that in the end it seemed that Buffy, Faith, the potentials/newly-empowered-slayers and their human allies conducted what amounted to a holding action before clearing out and allowing super-champion Spike to destroy the Hellmouth and the First's army with his shiny amulet. A deus ex machina, as an astute poster on another forum put it. Like I asked before, who's victory was it anyway? I will always feel that there were too many ideas, and the story was too rushed and confused in that Buffy finale.

[Daihrin]

No real argument there. The individual parts had their merits, though, and I always felt that was one of the strongest, so I had to bring it up~

[Moscow Watcher]

I love season 7 a lot but I'm tired of defending it against haters. My impression is that overwhelming majority of fans loves all the seasons. But they love them passively, i.e. without declaring their love again and again. Instead they write fanfics, create fanart etc.

[RuFio]

Season seven started very good and ended decently enough, but it suffered from a really boring mid-season slump. Alot of the episodes (Never Leave Me, Sleeper, Bring on the Night, Showtime), even some of the later ones (Touched, Empty Places, Dirty Girls) were kind of boring overall. While they all did have their respective storylines, they didn't stick out like a great buffy episode could.
And I'm all for season long arcs and stories- I love angel season four in that regard. But buffys season seven seemed sloppy and disjointed a lot of the time. In season four of angel, the story flowed from one episode to the next but it was tight.

I don't hate it at all, but I do wish it had been constructed better.

[Daihrin]

Season seven started very good and ended decently enough, but it suffered from a really boring mid-season slump. Alot of the episodes (Never Leave Me, Sleeper, Bring on the Night, Showtime), even some of the later ones (Touched, Empty Places, Dirty Girls) were kind of boring overall. While they all did have their respective storylines, they didn't stick out like a great buffy episode could.
And I'm all for season long arcs and stories- I love angel season four in that regard. But buffys season seven seemed sloppy and disjointed a lot of the time. In season four of angel, the story flowed from one episode to the next but it was tight.

I don't hate it at all, but I do wish it had been constructed better.

Really? I actually pretty much like all of them up through Showtime -- after that, I can honestly see where the problems arise, but I always thought that had the writers not continued to add all these new elements into the plot they could have had a brilliant season with everything up to that point, the First included.

[kassyopeia]

I love "The Wish" for many reasons but one remarkable feature of the wr