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View Full Version : Issue #20 Variant cover and blurb! WARNING SPOLIERS



vampmogs
13-08-08, 05:45 AM
Hey :wave:

This was already posted this over in the 'After the Fall' section of the forum but I thought we might as well get some discussion going on about it in the Buffy season 8 section. So here's the cover for Issue #20.

http://www.whedon.info/Buffy-Season-8-Comic-Book-Issue-20,27588.html

And the blurb;


BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER #20

Written by Jeph Loeb, penciled by Eric Wight and Georges Jeanty, inked by Andy Owens, colored by Michelle Madsen, covers by Jeanty and Jo Chen.

Comic-book writer Jeph Loeb was set to executive produce, alongside Joss Whedon and animator Eric Wight, the proposed Buffy animated TV series. While Buffy fans won't be viewing that show anytime soon, Loeb, Wight, and Whedon offer the next best thing -- a comic inspired by the animated series!

40 pages, $2.99, in stores on Nov. 26.

My thoughts...

Can I just say how bloody excited I am for this? We get not only Angel in Btvs again but Cordelia! We haven't had Cordy since 'Graduation Day' I think it's fantastic we're seeing her again, can't wait. I just love the cover, the high school years was my favourite ‘Scooby gang’ period so it’s nice to see all the gang back together.

It’ll be very interesting to see what they do with the issue, can’t wait to find out why we’re going back to high school. And really, it's one of the great benefits of the comic. You couldn't go back to highschool in a later televised season of Btvs for many reasons. The first being, the unlikelyhood of DB being able to come over from Ats, not to mention Cordy. It'd also take rebuilding all the sets which is extremely doubtful and well.. the characters look too different. They don't have to worry about any of that with the comics.
Vampmogs

DigitalLeonardo
13-08-08, 06:08 AM
I'm really exctied!

Though for the cover I wish they would have done something a bit different. They used alot of the stock images that we've seen, I wish they had been slightly updated - but oh well its cool.

And I agree, highschool rocked and I hope this redeems the series after the last two arcs.

Nina
13-08-08, 10:10 AM
The first cover already excited me for this arc, but with the return from Cordy (I miss her so much!) ... I really can't wait.

Only, where is Oz? Maybe this is season 1 ... ?

Koos
13-08-08, 10:28 AM
I'm not really excited for this issue. For three reasons:
1. It takes us away from the overall arcline for another month. It's filling. Couldn't they do this arc in AtS comics?
2. It really means that that the animation will never be brought out. This seals it.
3. Looking at the first cover, it means that Buffy/Willow/Xander will be together again. While I'd hoped that after the current arc they wouldn't.

Wolfie Gilmore
13-08-08, 10:37 AM
So, is this a flashback, right? (Not quite awake yet, early...) Interesting. I wonder what sets off the flashback?

Or is it time travel?

vampmogs
13-08-08, 11:53 AM
I'm not actually sure wether or not it is a flashback or not Wolfie? Somebody else might have heard something I didn't though? But most likely I'd say it is.

Why don't you want Buffy/Xander/Willow together anymore Koos? Just because it'd be more interesting or something else? I don't think this variant automatically seals the deal they will be though, after all Buffy could be reflecting on highschool because back then they were tight and were together whereas they may not be at this point in the story?

Wolfie Gilmore
13-08-08, 12:21 PM
I'm not actually sure wether or not it is a flashback or not Wolfie? Somebody else might have heard something I didn't though? But most likely I'd say it is.

Now I'm thinking of the opening of life on Mars "Am I mad, or in a coma, or back in time" type stuff :D

I hope they go into a cartoon world with cartoon logic. Frying pans to beat vampires!

-beardo-
13-08-08, 12:24 PM
To be honest i really doubt it's a flashback or them going back to high school.

Part of me thinks that because we have Geores Jeanty working on the issue as well that they go back to high school but are turned into cartoon versions of thereself, so they will actually be cartoons and they know it, its not just the art.

I think this may be a possible plot. At the end of time of your life Buffy finds out that twilight has something to do with her past. Willow casts a spell to send Buffy, Wilow and Xander into the past. Twilight intercepts the spell and they are turned into cartoon versions of themselves, in their highschool years.

dinamo
13-08-08, 01:17 PM
Does anyone think that this could possible be a bit of a extension on the current arc? Not in the sense its part of the story, but its maybe Buffy, Willow or Xander remembering when times were ''easier'' and they were just kids in school fighting vampires before money and politics was involved. Before they'd lost friends and even more of their innocence. This current arc is going to change things in some way, it can't not. So maybe this Issue is about the past before it all got so complicated?

stormwreath
13-08-08, 04:11 PM
The preview of this on the Dark Horse website has rather more information in the blurb:

Jeph Loeb and Eric Wight take the reins on Buffy Season Eight with this very special one-shot joining series artist Georges Jeanty, in a twisted tale picking up from the time-traveling Buffy/Fray crossover.

So... time-travel back to Season 1 or 2? An alternate parallel universe where things took a different route - perhaps because Willow never got interested in magic?


Also, I'm assuming that the animated series preview got leaked deliberately to YouTube, to stir up interest for the comic.

Wolfie Gilmore
13-08-08, 04:42 PM
Well, I've said it before, but now there's even more time travel, I'll say it again....please can we have another appearance from the Doctor? Maybe with Donna this time? :D

Oooh, thought. What if Rose and the Doctor in "NFFY" are actually parallel reality Doc and Rose, and there's no time machine, they're just in London in that dimension?

*Goes to check if he's wearing a blue suit in NFFY* ;)

Koos
13-08-08, 04:46 PM
Why don't you want Buffy/Xander/Willow together anymore Koos? Just because it'd be more interesting or something else?

I like any Buffy/Xander/Willow moment. I always have the need for that. But, I like it that the three are apart now. It is better for the characters, especially Xander's as he always needs to be stuck around Buffy all the time. It is more interesting, because all three of them have to deal with whatever it is without their friends. I'd have liked to see that for a longer period than one arc.

Roses-r-Red
13-08-08, 05:10 PM
I'm really excited about this issue. I can't wait to see some Dawn/Angel interaction. Ever since the episode of Angel (Season 4, I think) where Angelus calls Buffy to see if she's the slayer in L.A. and he says "Hi Dawn. It's me" I've been so curious about how they got along. It was the first time I actually thought about it. Angelus saying "It's me" seems so personal that it makes me want to know what their relationship was like.

Vampire in Rug
13-08-08, 06:05 PM
I can't wait.

I too love the highschool era scoobies and I think it's great that we're revisiting that. Maybe after being in the future with Fray, Buffy will try to get sent back... but will go too far? And she's gotta figure out how to get back to the present without disturbing the past too much?

Vampire in Rug
13-08-08, 06:14 PM
I'm not really excited for this issue. For three reasons:
1. It takes us away from the overall arcline for another month. It's filling. Couldn't they do this arc in AtS comics?

You don't know that. It's too early to say. And even if it is filler, at least it will be entertaining filler.

And why on earth would the IDW Angel comics want to revisit the Sunnydale High days??? AtS is set in Los Angeles, Sunnydale is where Buffy takes the spotlight.


2. It really means that that the animation will never be brought out. This seals it.

Buffy the Animated Series has been out of the question for years. I'd rather have this comic than nothing at all. If anything, the popularity of this comic would increase the ever-so-slim chance that we might someday see the animation. Seems like a bit of a coincidence that the pilot clip would be released on Youtube just before the hype of this comic.


3. Looking at the first cover, it means that Buffy/Willow/Xander will be together again. While I'd hoped that after the current arc they wouldn't.

I figure the current arc ("Time of Your Life") will explore how the scoobies cope seperated and once that has been explored they will be reunited. Which is the way I'd preffer it. Just my opinion though.

sueworld
13-08-08, 10:52 PM
So, is this a flashback, right? (Not quite awake yet, early...) Interesting. I wonder what sets off the flashback?

Or is it time travel?

I'm guessing it's going to be some sort of flashback. I'm so pleased to see Angel again. I hope he actually gets something to do, rather then be 'set dressing'.

I adore Chens covers, but I have to say I'm not so keen on Jeantys version.

Thomas
13-08-08, 10:54 PM
Looking at the first cover, it means that Buffy/Willow/Xander will be together again. While I'd hoped that after the current arc they wouldn't.We don't really know that from the cover. Yes, it shows the Scoobies together, but it could also what Buffy wishes their relationship was like now, which would cause her to flashback to High School, before everything changed. The covers sometimes

Charles
13-08-08, 11:49 PM
The cover and tale could be contrasted with how things are actually going though. It could very well hint and reflect upon what's going on in the current storyline. Note for example, in addition to Cordy and Angel, Dawn's present here, just as she is in the current storyline. But no sign of Joyce or (as previously pointed) Oz or Faith.

This sounds like an untold tales situation that while it may not advance the main plot, it may advance a subplot or two, namely Xander and Dawn's relationship.

Sacred Knight
14-08-08, 01:11 AM
I'd like it if this story is told as seen through present-day Buffy's eyes on her way back to her own time after leaving Fray's time. Like, I dunno, she gets stuck for a bit on her journey back and witnesses this untold story from high school as an unseen spectator. By the end of the story she then makes it back to her time.

I think it'd be cool because then we could see Buffy's reactions to certain things, like reminiscing about Angel, noting how although Dawn is there and she remembers this event, in true reality she was never there, seeing Joyce again, etc.

Slayer+
14-08-08, 01:24 AM
The cover and tale could be contrasted with how things are actually going though. It could very well hint and reflect upon what's going on in the current storyline. Note for example, in addition to Cordy and Angel, Dawn's present here, just as she is in the current storyline. But no sign of Joyce or (as previously pointed) Oz or Faith.

This sounds like an untold tales situation that while it may not advance the main plot, it may advance a subplot or two, namely Xander and Dawn's relationship.

This is what I'm afraid of. Filler episodes were okay when Buffy was a weekly thing. Now that we're only getting new editions every month... it just feels like a waste of time to have a 'do you remember way back then?' arc...

Charles
14-08-08, 01:52 AM
well the filler episodes have been better then the main ones. As bad as "The Chain" was, it was light years better then Wolves at the Gate IMO.

vampmogs
14-08-08, 02:53 AM
I like any Buffy/Xander/Willow moment. I always have the need for that. But, I like it that the three are apart now. It is better for the characters, especially Xander's as he always needs to be stuck around Buffy all the time. It is more interesting, because all three of them have to deal with whatever it is without their friends. I'd have liked to see that for a longer period than one arc.

Thanks for the reply. I just wanted to hear your thoughts on it that's all. I'm ok with Buffy/Xander/Willow being apart as well. I love them together, they're my favourite relationship in the Buffyverse but I don't mind them being apart either. As long as they're apart and the story recongises their seperation and as long as Xander or Willow get important stories, I'm happy. I liked that they were apart in season four but it was part of the story, it felt intentional by the writers. Whereas in later seasons I didn't feel it was intentional at all but simply that the writers didn't care enough to keep the friendship going.


I can't wait.

I too love the highschool era scoobies and I think it's great that we're revisiting that. Maybe after being in the future with Fray, Buffy will try to get sent back... but will go too far? And she's gotta figure out how to get back to the present without disturbing the past too much?

I reckon it's going to be that as well. If the added info says that it continues on from the Buffy/Fray story I'm thinking Buffy will get sent to far back and will be back in Sunnydale High days before someone (probably present Willow or even of the old scooby gang) will get her back to present time in season 8. It's only a one shot and I think it works rather well.

ThePoet's<3
14-08-08, 07:00 AM
This is the issue with the "Norman Rockwell" Chen cover, right?

Who knows? It might be fun! And although it may be a bit "fluffy" usually Joss winds a bit of hard truth into the story laced with some laughter. "OMWF" anyone?

allthings
14-08-08, 12:03 PM
Im looking forward to this issue. It will be great too see Dawn during the High School days as she wasnt really there. And it will be fun to see some classic Cordy before she fizzled out a bit in ATS. Oh, and it will be great to see the good ol' Buffy/Xander/Willow relationship because Im getting tired of the whole Willow/Buffy thing, it wouldnt be half as bad if it was done over a few episodes and not short issues each month.

Koos
14-08-08, 04:43 PM
You don't know that. It's too early to say. And even if it is filler, at least it will be entertaining filler.

And why on earth would the IDW Angel comics want to revisit the Sunnydale High days??? AtS is set in Los Angeles, Sunnydale is where Buffy takes the spotlight.

No idea :) The point is: why does this have to be in BtVS? Hope at least, that Angel won't take away valueble screentime again.


Buffy the Animated Series has been out of the question for years. I'd rather have this comic than nothing at all. If anything, the popularity of this comic would increase the ever-so-slim chance that we might someday see the animation. Seems like a bit of a coincidence that the pilot clip would be released on Youtube just before the hype of this comic.

I don't think that the popularity of this comic will increase that chance. Only the popularity of the show itself can do that. But if that's the case, Joss also needs to be ready. Taking away plot, arc and other writingstuff that has been created for the Animated Series will make him less ready. And as Joss is already busy as much as he can handle, the chance that it will happen eventually has now been decreased to practically zero.




I figure the current arc ("Time of Your Life") will explore how the scoobies cope seperated and once that has been explored they will be reunited. Which is the way I'd preffer it. Just my opinion though.

No problem with being reunited. It is just too soon IMO.


We don't really know that from the cover. Yes, it shows the Scoobies together, but it could also what Buffy wishes their relationship was like now, which would cause her to flashback to High School, before everything changed. The covers sometimes

That would mean that Buffy is distant to the Scoobies in a emotional way. I meant distance in the literal sense of the word: as in physical separation. I want to have the three have separated arclines. Only in that way Willow and Xander can be more than sidekicks to Buffy. And especially to Xander that is necessary in order to give him an arcline. Otherwise he will be nothing more than supporto guy. I while I love that too, it started to get annoying some while ago.


I'm guessing it's going to be some sort of flashback. I'm so pleased to see Angel again. I hope he actually gets something to do, rather then be 'set dressing'.

After Chosen I don't want to see him ever again in BtVS. It annoys me that he is here in the first place, so I hope he will get nothing.

I'm looking forward to see Dawn in the Highschool years though.


well the filler episodes have been better then the main ones. As bad as "The Chain" was, it was light years better then Wolves at the Gate IMO.

Well, that's your opinion. Wolves at the Gate was my favorite arcline so far. I liked The Chain too, but to me it was only partly a filler. It hadn't anything to do with the overall arc, yet it had everything to with it as well, because it showed the connection between the Slayers and a bit of how things worked in the Slayer-organisation. It was an enlightening issue.

-beardo-
14-08-08, 10:21 PM
Am i the only one who wnats an in-story explanation to the chnage of art. I think there will be as Georges Jeanty is doing art in the issue as well so i think that they are supposed to actually look like cartoons anyway.

Wolfie Gilmore
15-08-08, 11:24 AM
Am i the only one who wnats an in-story explanation to the chnage of art. I think there will be as Georges Jeanty is doing art in the issue as well so i think that they are supposed to actually look like cartoons anyway.

No (see above re frying pans!), like you, I want it to be a "they're in a cartoon" splainy. Mainly because that's been a fanfic obsession of mine for AGES so I'd love to see how they actually did it. Please, please let them drop a piano on a demon?

vampmogs
15-08-08, 11:34 AM
After Chosen I don't want to see him ever again in BtVS. It annoys me that he is here in the first place, so I hope he will get nothing.

Why? It wouldn't really make sense? If Buffy is revisiting her high school years Angel should get a decent part in it seeing as how he was such a pivotal part of her life at that time? Just like Cordy deserves some screen time for sure. Can’t we spare *one* standalone for characters like Angel and Cordy to get a pretty decent story out of 40 issues? What's the point in even going back to that time if they won't even use characters from that period? Might as well not even bother.

sueworld
15-08-08, 12:17 PM
I'd like to see more of Angel in this issue, but I have the nagging feeling that he'll be little more then a back drop for the story. Which would be a shame.

vampmogs
15-08-08, 12:35 PM
I'd like to see more of Angel in this issue, but I have the nagging feeling that he'll be little more then a back drop for the story. Which would be a shame.

Yeah it's only a standalone and given the limited amount of panel time it'll be unfortunate that we probably won't get as much Angel or Cordy. Taking into account Buffy, probably present Xander and Willow as well was as them in the past, Giles and all the scenes dealing with the time wonky stuff.

NileQT87
15-08-08, 12:47 PM
the opportunity to see more angel in season 1 btvs... i won't lie... is 99% of my interest in this issue. the other 1% is the other characters when i honestly felt something for buffy. the best willow, imo, was always the computer nerd wearing clothes her mom picked out from the softer side of sears--i WAS that girl. i'm a hop away from rooting for twilight (if it weren't for the mystical, demon or part-demon characters i care about), unless buffy goes back to the buffy i loved, cared about and empathized with in seasons 1-2/sometimes 3. for that reason alone, i can't wait to see btvs season 1 getting some page-space.

it's hard enough to even find seasons 1-2 fanfiction--even if you're a bangel. season 3 is even rare. i'm sick of season 4 through post-nfa. i like early buffy, as a character, more. angel continued to get even more interesting. buffy kind of regressed for me.

i like season 8 and all, but it's not doing most of the characters any likability favors; unlike, imo, ats/atf, which continues to keep the characters becoming even greater and more intriguing.

and giles has been grotesquely absent. giles and faith were the most interesting characters yet in season 8.

so yeah, i'm hoping for gobs of sweet, mystery-guy angel in issue #20. will i get it? not likely.

sueworld
15-08-08, 12:47 PM
3 panels If we're lucky? :roll:

Koos
15-08-08, 01:01 PM
Why? It wouldn't really make sense? If Buffy is revisiting her high school years Angel should get a decent part in it seeing as how he was such a pivotal part of her life at that time?

I'm not interested in Angel. I also dislike Buffy/Angel. Cordy I'm okay with because this is the only chance we have. Angel has his own show.

NileQT87
15-08-08, 01:03 PM
sue, perhaps one up-close and two in the background? perhaps standing in the shadows at the back of the bronze?

it'd be like we've (i've) hit sweeps. let there at least be one line of dialog. i'd happily trade the ménage à trois panel for an actual seasons 1-3 buffy/angel moment with dialog. not even a long or important moment. a passing look? if it were season 2, a bit of spike & dru would be sweet. and i'm always up for fanged four flashbacks.

hey! maybe it could be a bit about angel killing darla to save buffy! the animated series was supposed to be episode 1x07.5! or a noticing of the cross burn?

i'd also love some angel/giles or angel/jenny. or giles/jenny for that matter. actually--that would be my #1 pick--anything angel/giles/jenny-related.

Charles
15-08-08, 05:48 PM
Well, that's your opinion. Wolves at the Gate was my favorite arcline so far. I liked The Chain too, but to me it was only partly a filler. It hadn't anything to do with the overall arc, yet it had everything to with it as well, because it showed the connection between the Slayers and a bit of how things worked in the Slayer-organisation. It was an enlightening issue.


The Chain I felt was one of the better stories simply because it took advantage of the freedom that s8 allegedly offered by setting the story so far away and in such a fantastic setting (the underground kingdom) that it made sense and was very original.

Wolves at the Gate OTOH was largely a rehash of old plots and idiotic decision making. Ie, Buffy's lonely and horny again, Willow's experiencing doubt about her magickal abilities, Xander is the buttmonkey again until he suddenly gets to act grown up AGAIN as he's done off and on every year since S3 and it's upto the big bad Vampire to save the day and the hides of all involved.

That adds to a big steaming pile of crap IMO. The Chain? Not a great issue, not really a good one but it was original at least and tried to be interesting. Compared to the Sominex that's come later, it has that going for it.

Sacred Knight
17-08-08, 04:15 AM
See all your points but the only one I take issue with is the buttmonkey thing. Xander was never portrayed that way in Wolves At The Gate. They show some of the lure still affecting Xander at the beginning, but never to embarrassing states, and was only shown at all for the explicit purpose of letting it be known that by the end of the arc he had completely shattered it.

Matt
17-08-08, 11:27 AM
I'm really excited about this one, it sounds interesting. Personally I think it's going to be Buffy, Willow and Xander thinking back to High School and remembering how life was back then compared to now. Either that or it will be a side effect to the Time-Travel things this arc or Twilight will somehow trap them in their old selves.

BTW, isn't the next arc the one where individual writers from the show do issues? If so, does that mean we've got a series of one offs or are they gonna be connected somehow?

Tom
17-08-08, 04:07 PM
If Buffy goes too far in the past trying to get back to the present I wonder if high school Buffy will try to get answers out of Buffy about her and Angel's future together. I think Buffy would lie to her.

Charles
17-08-08, 10:51 PM
See all your points but the only one I take issue with is the buttmonkey thing. Xander was never portrayed that way in Wolves At The Gate. They show some of the lure still affecting Xander at the beginning, but never to embarrassing states, and was only shown at all for the explicit purpose of letting it be known that by the end of the arc he had completely shattered it.

Except for him not denying voluntarily going with Dracula for a year.

And hauling the count's luggage around.

And not staking Dracula for his part in Renee's death...

vampmogs
18-08-08, 05:29 AM
Except for him not denying voluntarily going with Dracula for a year.

Ah? Who was the more needy one there? The guy with a girl, who's head of a global organisation flying in on a helicopter *he flew* or the vampire drinking his undead life away without any desire to live until he sees Xander arrive at his doorstep?


And hauling the count's luggage around.

And telling the Count he'll kill him if he calls him manservant ect.


And not staking Dracula for his part in Renee's death...

…..Part in Renee's death? There’s many reasons why Xander would be perfectly justified to stake Drac on the spot but what part did he play in Renee’s death?

Sacred Knight
18-08-08, 06:41 AM
I'm not seeing what part Dracula directly played into Renee's death either. I can only assume your reason is one of semantics, in which case Xander was a loser for letting Buffy comfort him rather than being mad at her for her design of the whole operation, as had it not taken place Renee would still be alive. An example why semantics are most of the time pointless. And yeah he carried Drac's luggage, but I didn't deny that there was a semblance of the thrall still present in the arc. But I stand by what I said that it was nothing embarrassingly demeaning.

Koos
18-08-08, 11:58 PM
Except for him not denying voluntarily going with Dracula for a year.

And hauling the count's luggage around.

And not staking Dracula for his part in Renee's death...

To me Xander hasn't been the buttmonkey either during this arc. Xander did what was necessary to Dracula to help them. He couldn't deny something he didn't know was being made up by Andrew.
As for the last argument. This is a difficult one, I guess. For the same token, why did Buffy not stake Dracula. Or better: why didn't they stake him after they had retrieved Xander from Dracula in Antique.
In this case I would say they had a deal with Dracula, he was on their side. Dracula had his part in Renee's death, but it was done by mistake, not on purpose. It asked a great deal for Dracula to give up his powers to restore that mistake. I can understand why Xander didn't stake Dracula.
But the question: does it make Xander a buttmonkey for having staked Dracula. I would say no. Staking Dracula would be hypocrisy in his part. It's not like he killed Anya in Selfless. Or DarkWillow. He even stated in Selfless that they would help their friends if needed. If they would have gone the wrong way.
Dracula is not a friend, but, unlike Anya or DarkWillow, he was showing that he could be trusted. He was not a friend but a colleque at the moment. Killing is then for another time.

It's also because I don't see Xander as a buttmonkey that the whole scene that he standsup to Dracula has no real meaning to me. It only confirmed that Xander had been playing a game when it came to Dracula, nothing more.

stormwreath
20-08-08, 11:13 PM
If Buffy goes too far in the past trying to get back to the present I wonder if high school Buffy will try to get answers out of Buffy about her and Angel's future together. I think Buffy would lie to her.:2party: Your comment helped inspired me to write this: my answer to your question:

Past Imperfect, Future Conditional, Present Tense (http://stormwreath.livejournal.com/54406.html)

I don't think she'll lie; just try to be vague and encouraging...

Charles
21-08-08, 11:14 PM
he's a buttmonkey because once again, the arc isn't about him, it's about Dracula and Buffy, he again reprises the same role we've seen from his character in The Zeppo and The Replacement ie grow up and be mature.

he does not score the kill of Toru, Dracula effectively does.

And Dracula is directly responsible for Renee's death as even though the secrets he says were lost because of cheating, he is absolutely unrepentant on the subject of Slayers AND he can always re-enchant himself later via his magic weapon so his 'sacrifice' at best was hollow.

It's an empty, meaningless Story-arc full of more cliched crap trying to be passed off as new.

Sacred Knight
22-08-08, 04:01 AM
So really your issue is whom the focus of the arc is and isn't on in your eyes, which is a perfectly valid view. However you should really stick with just that. Because what you're doing with the baseless "buttmonkey" argument is dishonestly painting in something that isn't there just to support your dislike of the overall arc.

Nina
08-09-08, 10:33 PM
There is an interview with Jeph Loeb; here (http://vampiresandslayers.ning.com/profiles/blog/show?id=2235870%3ABlogPost%3A17998)

I'm to lazy to register, and Léo of Whedonesque wrote that there are 13 scripts for this issue and;

Buffy will be waking up in the animated series.

NileQT87
09-09-08, 12:00 AM
it would be pretty cool if they could perhaps open up a separate series to fill in season 1 stories using the animated buffy art (or not). it would be an awesome spin-off to season 8 and at least all that work for the animated series wouldn't be for naught. just sort of de-infantilize those 13 scripts a bit and up them for the comic audience and it would be fun.

can't wait to all that wonderful season 1-ness. i miss that era of btvs and the way the characters used to be.

KingofCretins
09-09-08, 03:36 AM
I think the set up makes sense here -- if Buffy is "waking up" in the Animated Series, namely, in Season 1, it seems like it will be a by-product of getting her back from the future. I'm actually sort of hoping that, rather than Future Buffy being there and seeing herself and the others, that she wakes up *in* her past self, that she *is* Season 1 Buffy. I think that would be a great way for her to see the differences between who she is and who she was, and why the older one is better, through how people react to her.

Also, that issue will undoubtedly have some real insight or reflection for Buffy/Angel fans about the current Buffy's feelings about him... and her other friends and Giles as well.

Charles
09-09-08, 11:35 AM
So really your issue is whom the focus of the arc is and isn't on in your eyes, which is a perfectly valid view. However you should really stick with just that. Because what you're doing with the baseless "buttmonkey" argument is dishonestly painting in something that isn't there just to support your dislike of the overall arc.

How is the 'buttmonkey' argument baseless when this arc is a pretty good and accurate description of it?

Remember the original comment started in large part because Xander was used by Dracula for demeaning and otherwise unimportant story arc.

And what was Xander's role during this story?
-He walks in on Buffy and Satsu consumating their ongoing relationship.
-He is pretty much told to go see Dracula despite the baggage that goes along with it.
-He gets to watch his latest would be lover die in graphic fashion thus being rendered useless in the fight.
-And he gets a hollow kill of said murderous vampire.

That's prety much the definition of 'buttmonkey'. He's never the focus of the story arc, the major storylines revolve around Buffy, Willow and Dracula. Even now nothing has changed, the main focus of the series revolves around the coming (and boring) conflict between Buffy and Willow while Xander and Dawn have the 'C' plot.

Baseless comments to me would be some of the praise given to the script doctor for his very weak and IMO completely destructive/negative view of female empowerment or originality.

vampmogs
09-09-08, 11:47 AM
Charles, it's simple.. just stop reading. If truly detest Joss Whedon, if you truly detest his work, if you truly detest season eight, the most obvious answer would be to give up on it before you give yourself any more unnecessary grief.

If you’d just had problems with season eight I’d think differently but given your previous comments it appears you dislike Joss and most of his work over the last few years. So it seems rather odd you continue to watch when you clearly loathe the work to such an extent.

Here's the transcript for the interview on Issue #20 guys, transcribed by Emmie over on Slayalive;

Jeph Loeb: "Joss had this great idea that he was gonna do all the seasons stories as comic books...Dark Horse needed to have some of the names attached to this 'cause to be perfectly honest, a licensed book has never worked...there are 40, 60, 80 issues of Buffy that no one cared - so Joss had this wacky idea that he was gonna do a Buffy comic and someone's gonna care...it's a top ten hit book, a monster hit book. It's the biggest book Dark Horse has ever had. It's a top ten book, it's consistently beating out everything that DC has and it squeezes itself into the Marvel world.

So when I first thought about doing it I said there is a way to get even and I want to tell a story where something happens to Buffy in the present and she wakes up Pleasantville-style and she's on the Animated show. And the part that is incredibly exciting is the animated series took place in year 1, so it's always episode 7.5. Which means that she knew Angel but she did not know that he was Angelus. It was just a simpler time - her mom was still alive, the biggest surprise would be that Dawn would be there and she'd be 10 years old, that it would Principal Snyder and Cordelia would still be alive, and you know Willow had not gone dark. All the things that happened as the years go by - they were still kids trying to figure out how to stake a vamp. And Buffy gets dropped in this world. There's a line that it's "a season 8 brain, season 1 bod" and she's having a ball, it's the Wizard of Oz. At what point does she decide to go home 'cause it's Pleasantville?"

I ran into Drew Goddard who wrote Cloverfield...and I told him and he was like, 'Oh my god, what is that? Is that like a 5 issue arc? It sounds great.' I said, 'It's a issue.' Drew: 'Oh no you can't do that.' Loeb: 'No no no, it's 22 pages.'

Anyway, as you can imagine because I'm going to do something with Buffy people were interested and then when they found out that it was tied in with the Animated series and that Eric Wight who had done all the design for the Animated series was doing the artwork. So then you would actually be able to see basically what our story was and what the show was going to be like. We had a chance to be able to say 'You wondered what the show was going to be like - Here, this is it.'

Well, back in the day we made this 3 minutes which by the way I've seen - it's incredibly crude. It has not been polished in any way shape or form. But there's something very cool about it and the fact that Alyson and Nicholas and Anthony all did their own voices. And the woman who does Buffy's voice on the video game sounds so much like Sarah it's freaky. Even more freaky is when you're standing in the sound booth and you're looking at her and Sarah's voice is coming out of her, it's the most bizarre thing in the world. Then it sounds like an episode of Buffy and that was a scene that we took from -----. So I don't know. I've always said - Joss has always said it's over. But the best Buffy stories are stories of resurrection. So I never say no.

I have an out in all my contracts and if it ever goes up again...the part that cracks me up is the fact that Joss could move the needle just so far on this comic book speaks to the fact that you should do the Buffy movie tomorrow. I'm sure there's 93 reasons why you can't, I mean we barely got the Animated show together given the number of deals we had to make. So I don't know, it'd be fun. That's all I can say.

Everybody that was working on it was having a great time and we have 13 scripts, so it's not like we couldn't - we were in production when they pulled the plug so everyone's got all those notes and everyone that was gonna do it is still here and still working in the business. Eric Radomski is still one of the most talented executive producers and directors working in the business of animation. I talk to him once a week about a lot of different stuff. Every third call we laugh and giggle and talk about how we almost made it - we almost got it."

Interviewer: "I was hoping with that footage got out that it would wake somebody up to say that this could still work."

"Look, the world is a different place. When Family Guy and American Dad are top-rated shows and the idea that a half-hour of night time - primetime - television animation...I don't know, not so far. You toss in my head all the goods when the show went down and we laugh about it all the time. Then we'd laugh in a sad way when we would go to meetings - we would have designs, budgets, agreements with actors, 6 scripts that you could read right when we left there and a (relationship/licenseship ?) with money basically. And we would say 'We're so grateful you saw us. What we have today is to bring big bags of money and bags of gold. Here they are and they're all yours. All you have to do is make the check.' And people would look at us and go, 'Do you have any copper pans?' And we would go, 'No no no, we have bags of money - gold!' People: 'But we're looking for copper pans.'

And that's what it was like, we just couldn't - I don't know. And so now I do think that the amount of buzz that's on this issue is funny. You know, they started an online petition and the publics hands will not go down quietly. There's a chance that those stories could get out. There are a lot of fun scripts to direct. Jane Espenson wrote two brilliant episodes and it's great fun."

RuFio
09-09-08, 03:31 PM
ugh. charles always is so negative.

Charles
11-09-08, 03:37 AM
I read for two reasons, one I still have a fondess for the characters and what they could be. Buffy in the hands of someone else, would be a franchise like Stargate has become. And it still be an excellent show built around the idea of Female empowerment.

The Willows, the Xanders, the Giles, the Faiths, Spike, etc... All were marvelous characters and their actors should be applauded for their performances and IMO probably are the most under-rated aspect of the series.

As for the second reason, related to the above, I read it because as I have said, I find the material to be rich and full of potential that is being wasted IMO by Joss and company. I'm not saying I'm any great writer or creator or anything like that. Lord knows if anyone asks I'll provide proof enough of that I'm not. But there's a reason why the BtVS and ATS sections at FF.net are HUGE and STILL generating stories, years after those shows went off the air. And yes most of those stories aren't what one would call great but the mere fact that so many people were touched by the series, and years later continue to be inspired by it, yet moved enough to change things is evidence to me of what could have been.

And if we're lucky (and SMG has final say), we will likely get once they do the live action movie reunion here in a few years.

vampmogs
11-09-08, 03:39 AM
But it's extremely, extremely doubtful that Joss will ever give up Btvs to anyone else, it's his baby he's not about to hand it over and have no more involvement in it. And a lot of the reasons it is so successful is because of Joss, you don't give him enough credit, he built this world. The other writers deserve a heck of a lot of credit as well but so does he.

Rowan Hawthorn
11-09-08, 04:52 AM
I read for two reasons, one I still have a fondess for the characters and what they could be.

Sounds more to me like you have a fondness for what you'd prefer them to be. The characters are what they were created and written to be; if you want them to be something different, then I'm sorry, but that doesn't track as having any real fondness for the characters at all. Might as well want Sherlock Holmes to be written like Magnum, P.I....

Skippcomet
11-09-08, 08:30 PM
Sounds more to me like you have a fondness for what you'd prefer them to be. The characters are what they were created and written to be; if you want them to be something different, then I'm sorry, but that doesn't track as having any real fondness for the characters at all. Might as well want Sherlock Holmes to be written like Magnum, P.I....

Or all the fans who write fanfiction starring Xander Harris: Man With 1,000 Guns and No Sense of Humor....:roll:

KingofCretins
11-09-08, 08:49 PM
I've written at least one fic that has a darker take on Xander, for a fic challenge. I've always found that specific criticism of fan preference pretty silly. Wesley was a far bigger goof/comic relief character, sissy screamer and all, in Season 3 of "Buffy" and Season 1 of "Angel" than Xander has ever been at any time in Buffy, yet he turned into Wesley, Man of 1000 Guns, Collapsible Swords, and No Sense of Humor in about 3 or 4 seasons.

Such changes in Xander are not somehow invalid on their face just because they're Xander. It's been upsetting, really, that people actually criticize Season 8 on the very basis that Xander is a slightly darker, more serious man -- sort of a cross between "Halloween" soldier Xander, "The Replacement" Suave!Xander, and Season 7 funny-but-charismatic Xander. He could be Xander, Man of A Few Guns or Cool Weapons and Still With His Much Needed Sarcasm without it being pandering or out of character.

Koos
11-09-08, 09:16 PM
Such changes in Xander are not somehow invalid on their face just because they're Xander. It's been upsetting, really, that people actually criticize Season 8 on the very basis that Xander is a slightly darker, more serious man -- sort of a cross between "Halloween" soldier Xander, "The Replacement" Suave!Xander, and Season 7 funny-but-charismatic Xander. He could be Xander, Man of A Few Guns or Cool Weapons and Still With His Much Needed Sarcasm without it being pandering or out of character.

Considering Xander's past as military guy it would have been much more logical to have Xander turning into GunMan instead of Wesley.

On terms of being nerdy/geeky I agree that Wesley also used to be bigger than Xander. But there's a difference between them that makes it harder make Xander darker than Wesley. This difference is something we saw in issue 16 where he didn't go as dark as some had expected he would be. Xander can handle more than most characters can before he breaks down. He also feels more responsible. He doesn't just shoot with guns. It is pretty hard to write a darker Xander and very hard to bring him down the evil path. It just isn't his thing.

Skippcomet
12-09-08, 10:55 AM
I've written at least one fic that has a darker take on Xander, for a fic challenge. I've always found that specific criticism of fan preference pretty silly. Wesley was a far bigger goof/comic relief character, sissy screamer and all, in Season 3 of "Buffy" and Season 1 of "Angel" than Xander has ever been at any time in Buffy, yet he turned into Wesley, Man of 1000 Guns, Collapsible Swords, and No Sense of Humor in about 3 or 4 seasons.

Well, to be fair to Wesley, from where he started when he joined the cast of Angel, he really didn't have anywhere else to go but up. :D But also, from the time Wesley joined, he became an indispensable member of the ensemble and cast. During that same time, the writers were trying very hard to shove Xander onto the sidelines, and for the most part succeeded. (This was roughly the time when Joss told Nick that Xander as a character was "done" and essentially left the decision whether Nick would leave or stay up to Nick.)

When I criticize "gun-toting Xander" fics, I'm talking about the ones that started up around the time of season four and after, when Xander was at his lowest point as a character. The ones that read like subpar Tom Clancy or Mack Bolan wannabes, in which Xander leaves Sunnydale, severs all ties to his friends, joins the military or some mercenary operation, is stripped completely of his personality, goes into far too much detail describing his arsenal of Desert Eagles and machine guns, becomes a world-traveling single-minded badass killing machine and loner who may or may not renew some kind of strictly-professional ties with the Scoobies, and is usually written by a male writer with either military or law-enforcement experience who is usually highly critical of Buffy's methods, tactics, and fighting style (to the point of insisting that she's merely a superstrong, untrained brawler who could and would be beaten by any true, albeit unpowered, devoted of martial arts with the proper amount of training). The ones that seem like they are trying to refute Joss's points about traditional institutions and traditional notions of masculinity.