Which Came First, The Betrayal Or The Egg?

[kassyopeia]

In the Twilight-thread, the discussion recently turned to the significance of the red egg in the vision that, according to Robin, shows Buffy betrayed. Since it seems likely that this egg, being by far the most intriguing visual element of the scene, is of particular significance, and since this doesn't seem to have been discussed much so far, I think it's a good idea to split it into its own thread. Naturally, we don't know anything yet, so this will be entirely based on speculation, considerations of the likelihood of storylines and symbolism.

The relevant panels:

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk266/kassyopeia/BF/egg1half-size.jpghttp://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk266/kassyopeia/BF/egg2half-size.jpg

The posts so far:
I'm rereading Anywhere But Here -- there's a part where Buffy and Willow are taken into a chamber by the demon Sephirilian where Buffy sees herself crying on the ground, covered in wounds. When Buffy asks what happened Robin tells her, "Betrayal. The closest, the most unexpected." In the chamber is a cracked red egg floating above a obsidian pillar.

Could this be where Twilight reveals himself to Buffy? If he is someone Buffy knows and loves it would be seen as a betrayal from someone close and unexpected. But what does the egg mean? What is the egg?
A forum search for "red egg" doesn't turn up anything but a few mentions of its existence, and a single post containing a theory as to its significance.

To me, it seems that the most obvious interpretation of a broken egg is that something hatched from it. So, my current best guess would be along the lines of Buffy wanting to stop the hatching, and the betrayer stopping her from stopping it. It could be the other way 'round, but she seems to have lost the confrontation.
I looked up info on the red egg as a symbol and all of it leads to a birth of some kind. Specifically, the red egg in Chinese tradition:

The egg is regarded throughout the world - and in many varied cultures - as a symbol of fertility - the essence of creation, new life, new ideas.
In ancient China a red egg and ginger party was held to celebrate the birth of a child. It is a tradition that is still practiced in contemporary Chinese society; family and friends are presented with red eggs - symbolic of the luck and prosperity awaiting the new life.

I'm starting to think Buffy will be pregnant by the end of this Season or find out about a future pregnancy from Fray/Watcher's diaries. Her child as her enemy would be the worst betrayal and pretty heart-breaking. Kinda like when Conner went against Angel.
So, do you mean to say that the red egg in the vision is a metaphor for Buffy's pregnancy? Intriguing, but as far as we know the other visions showed real events, not symbolic ones, so I'd tend to think that the red egg is an actual red egg, and I don't see how Buffy could lay an egg, or Buffy's offspring hatch from one.
Even so, your post makes me think of an interpretation just as valid as the one I mentioned above - Buffy wanted to protect the hatchling, but the betrayer abducted it. But that would be so similar to the Angel/Wesley/Holtz/Connor storyline in "Angel" that I doubt the writers would do that.
Which visions do you mean-The bank robbing/Willow with Snake person vision? I guess you have a point there but the girl, Robin I think, says at the end of their journey that Buffy needs to save the prince which is metaphorical in the sense that Buffy is Queen. I hope that made sense!

Also, about being close to the Angel storyline, I think Buffy and Angel had a lot of similar storylines running through them, so it wouldn't be a surprise to me. I actually like that the shows have that connection after all they're in the same universe so it makes sense to me.
robin, the guide = robin egg?

what if it is just a symbol of robin? granted, they could have shown an actual robin (the bird) in that case, but a robin egg being a symbol of her is a possibility. though, robin eggs are blue or blue-green.

[Nina]

I did find another meaning of the red egg, it's from a dutch site.. But the red egg is a symbol of the Anglo-Saxon goddess Ēostre (also knows as Ostara). Easter comes from her name (easter + (red) eggs ... the other symbol for Ostara is the rabbit). She stands for something like; life after death, light after the dark, goodness after bad times, spring after the winter etc.

Maybe that's the turning point and from that moment ... Buffy (or other goodguys) will win from the bad guy (Twilight)?

[kassyopeia]

Which visions do you mean-The bank robbing/Willow with Snake person vision?
Yes, those.
Robin [...] says at the end of their journey that Buffy needs to save the prince which is metaphorical in the sense that Buffy is Queen.
Aha, interesting. This is the only occurrence of "prince" in the season so far, and Buffy is indeed referred to as "queen" several times:

In "No Future For You", by Gigi.


Again in "No Future For You", by Lt. Molter, speaking to Twilight.


Yet again in "No Future For You", in the recurring dream Buffy tells Xander about (from King's transcript):
BUFFY: "I’ve been having repeat’s of the same bad episode every night this week. There’s this… *thing* chasing me, and no matter how hard I run, it always ends up scoring the pounce. But right before it swallows me whole, the big smelly looks me right in the eyes and says, 'the Queen is dead.'"

The next image shows the creature Buffy has been dreaming of. It has an almost feline body, but a forked snakes tongue, and wings like an eagle. It’s mane is made of green energy, some kind of fire. It is similar to a chimera, but much bigger.

CREATURE: "Long live the Queen."
Intriguing. Random thought: Could there be a direct, literal connection here? Do chimeras hatch from or lay eggs?

robin, the guide = robin egg?
Hmmm. Robin was in the scene as herself, why would she be in it again symbolically?
She stands for something like; life after death, light after the dark, goodness after bad times, spring after the winter etc.
So, then, the egg could symbolize Buffy's own rebirths in the past, even.

Two other aspects to think about:

What previous (TV series) instances of betrayal are there? Can we draw parallels to the future one?

Assuming, as I am, that the scene shows us a real event as-is, are there any other visual elements we can attach significance to? The first time I read the comic, I assumed the vault to be part of the scottish castle. Now, though, with the castle blown up to some extent and considering the black plinth that Buffy doesn't recognize, that seems rather unlikely.

[Morrydwen]

All wrong, guys. Clearly, Buffy is betrayed by a Big Red Chicken we've yet to meet.

;)

[Wolfie Gilmore]

All wrong, guys. Clearly, Buffy is betrayed by a Big Red Chicken we've yet to meet.

;)

Clearly, the big bad is Nando's:

http://www.execalibre.co.uk/Charity/SANDS/nandos.jpg

Well, people do seem to get shot there often.

But aside from evil chickens, I'm not even going to try to speculate how all of this ties up, but I'm fascinated to see how Buffy-as-Queen, closest-and-least-expected-as-betrayer and the red egg chamber all link up. I hope we do get all this tied up/referred back to. The Queen stuff would be a waste if not.

[Roses-r-Red]

I did find another meaning of the red egg, it's from a dutch site.. But the red egg is a symbol of the Anglo-Saxon goddess Ēostre (also knows as Ostara). Easter comes from her name (easter + (red) eggs ... the other symbol for Ostara is the rabbit). She stands for something like; life after death, light after the dark, goodness after bad times, spring after the winter etc.

Maybe that's the turning point and from that moment ... Buffy (or other goodguys) will win from the bad guy (Twilight)?

Thanks again for this intriguing discussion.

The Dutch interpretation could still mean a birth of some kind. Easter and Spring Solstice both represent a rebirth/birth. Spring after winter is always seen as a renew of the earth and in Christianity, Jesus is raised from the dead in a kind of rebirth.

I really do think the Egg, the Queen and Prince references are all linked. Just don't know how.

[kassyopeia]

I hope we do get all this tied up/referred back to. The Queen stuff would be a waste if not.
I really do think the Egg, the Queen and Prince references are all linked. Just don't know how.
Yeah, I never really thought to take the chimera-dream's significance beyond the "No Future For You" arc, but had a slightly uneasy fealing about it because the dream image was so imposing, and the Roden/Gigi threat not really proportionate to it.
The link to Robin's "prince" is perfect IMO!

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Yeah, I never really thought to take the chimera-dream's significance beyond the "No Future For You" arc, but had a slightly uneasy fealing about it because the dream image was so imposing, and the Roden/Gigi threat not really proportionate to it.
The link to Robin's "prince" is perfect IMO!

Random interesting (to me) connection - a chimera in a human context is a person with two sets of DNA (due to fusing of two embryos in the womb, I think). The idea of the split self links in to Buffy's spreading of her slayerness (though perhaps most apt for Buffy/Faith, the idea of something that there should only be one of, having two of 'em).

[Roses-r-Red]

'the Queen is dead.'

"Long live the Queen."[/indent]

This oxymoron reminds me of the Shanshu which means both "to live" and "to die."

Intriguing. Random thought: Could there be a direct, literal connection here? Do chimeras hatch from or lay eggs?


Chimeras are not really hybrids, but are organisms containing cells from different "parents". Chimeras are formed from four parent cells (two fertilized eggs or early embryos fuse together) or from three parent cells (a fertilized egg is fused with an unfertilized egg or a fertilized egg is fused with an extra sperm).

So, it's more of a group birth, not just one male, one female. I'm I getting that right?


Two other aspects to think about:

What previous (TV series) instances of betrayal are there? Can we draw parallels to the future one?

Assuming, as I am, that the scene shows us a real event as-is, are there any other visual elements we can attach significance to? The first time I read the comic, I assumed the vault to be part of the scottish castle. Now, though, with the castle blown up to some extent and considering the black plinth that Buffy doesn't recognize, that seems rather unlikely.

Interesting. Have to think about that one.

[Roses-r-Red]

The idea of the split self links in to Buffy's spreading of her slayerness (though perhaps most apt for Buffy/Faith, the idea of something that there should only be one of, having two of 'em).

Great point! So egg breaking could be a death to the multitude of slayers but a rebirth of just one slayer (or none).

[tangent]

This oxymoron reminds me of the Shanshu which means both "to live" and "to die."

Sorry to butt in on a very interesting debbate but it's not actually an oxymoron. It means 'The old queen is dead, long live the new queen'. I took this to mean that Buffy could lose her status as leader of the slayers. Wether this threat has now disappeared with the demise of Gigi, i'm not sure.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Yes, those.


What previous (TV series) instances of betrayal are there? Can we draw parallels to the future one?



This isn't actually from Buffy, but my brain immediately jumped to a "closest, most unexpected" betrayal from another show - Twin Peaks's "betrayal", in which Laura Palmer's father killed her, while possessed by Bob. Not that I'm predicting it'll be Hank. Just a random brainfart :D

In terms of the show itself, there's Giles' betrayal in season 7, by trying to kill Spike. There's everyone's arguable betrayal of Buffy by kicking her out in season 7. There's Spike's double-dealing with Adam in season 4 (not that anyone thought he was good, but still, kind of a betrayal?).

Many more I'm sure, those are the first that come to mind.

[kassyopeia]

Great point! So egg breaking could be a death to the multitude of slayers but a rebirth of just one slayer (or none).
Hey, that made me just realize something else: The egg has the exact colour of the UnSlayerization lense/beam the Japanese vampires used, as far as I can tell.

ETA: Wow, that thought is really creeping me out right now. I'm gonna take a break from this thread.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Great point! So egg breaking could be a death to the multitude of slayers but a rebirth of just one slayer (or none).

Buffy is reborn as Slayer, the but everyone else has to die? Brr! That's cold and dark. I like :eviltail:

[Nina]

This isn't actually from Buffy, but my brain immediately jumped to a "closest, most unexpected" betrayal from another show - Twin Peaks's "betrayal", in which Laura Palmer's father killed her, while possessed by Bob. Not that I'm predicting it'll be Hank. Just a random brainfart :D

In terms of the show itself, there's Giles' betrayal in season 7, by trying to kill Spike. There's everyone's arguable betrayal of Buffy by kicking her out in season 7. There's Spike's double-dealing with Adam in season 4 (not that anyone thought he was good, but still, kind of a betrayal?).

Many more I'm sure, those are the first that come to mind.

some others;
There was also Jenny who didn't told the others (incl. Angel) about the curse. Giles betrayed Buffy in Helpless. And Faith betrayed the scoobies in season 3.

Ats had of course the worst betrayal of them all, Wesley who kidnapped Connor. But also Connor picking Jasmine's side in the fight, Angel leaving his team and job in season 2, Gunn who was corrupted and betrayed the team ... and Harmony's betrayal in NFA.

I will probably miss some, but okay.


There are many kinds of betrayel in the shows,

And when we are talking about all those births and stuff ... Dawn can be seen as Buffy's child. Just a mention, no idea if it fits anywhere.

*I confess, I'm lost in this conversation.*

[Roses-r-Red]

Buffy is reborn as Slayer, the but everyone else has to die? Brr! That's cold and dark. I like :eviltail:

I like it too and it makes sense with the current themes that are running through the comic. It also connects with Buffy's issues since Season 1 - destiny (and not being able to run from it) and the "one slayer in all the world" lonliness. This would be a tough decision for Buffy and just the kind of angst Joss likes to put on the character.

[Nina]

But to be fair, shouldn't Faith be a slayer as well? Or in this case of one slayer ... the only slayer?

[Roses-r-Red]

But to be fair, shouldn't Faith be a slayer as well? Or in this case of one slayer ... the only slayer?

Absolutely, and that's one (of many, many) of the major problems I have with Season 7. But, we know in Fray's time she is the first slayer to be called in a long time, so it could be that Buffy severs the slayer line (Faith) and no more slayers are called because of it.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I like it too and it makes sense with the current themes that are running through the comic. It also connects with Buffy's issues since Season 1 - destiny (and not being able to run from it) and the "one slayer in all the world" lonliness. This would be a tough decision for Buffy and just the kind of angst Joss likes to put on the character.

The idea that slayers don't gain strength from one another, as Willow puts it, is a chilling one indeed, and taps into the idea of Buffy's isolation which, as you say, has been a factor since the beginning. Perhaps destiny is more powerful than Buffy allowed? Changing the status quo not really possible? I find that too unpleasant though! Surely not....surely?

*Cries*

I want to think that Willow will be proven wrong. I think she will. But I do think it's something that has to be dealt with. It'd be too easy if Buffy could just change the world and the world not push back in a reactionary way. Not just the world of people, but the fabric of the mystical universe, somehow.

But to be fair, shouldn't Faith be a slayer as well? Or in this case of one slayer ... the only slayer?

Well, yes, but they shouldn't both be the slayer at once. Much like a chimera, which requires one twin to die for the other to survive...one chimera, by definition, requires the death of another.

[Roses-r-Red]

I want to think that Willow will be proven wrong. I think she will. But I do think it's something that has to be dealt with. It'd be too easy if Buffy could just change the world and the world not push back in a reactionary way. Not just the world of people, but the fabric of the mystical universe, somehow.

Well said. One thing we know about he Buffy and Angel universe is that every action has a reaction


Well, yes, but they shouldn't both be the slayer at once. Much like a chimera, which requires one twin to die for the other to survive...one chimera, by definition, requires the death of another.

I'm actually on the side of getting rid of all the "other" slayers in this storyline. I liked it when it was just one or two, but that's my own opinion. It would make for some interesting and heart-wrenching story telling if Buffy needs to destroy all of the slayers she created.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Well said. One thing we know about he Buffy and Angel universe is that every action has a reaction

"That's the thing with magic. There are always consequences. Always"

*storms off with leather coat flapping*



I'm actually on the side of getting rid of all the "other" slayers in this storyline. I liked it when it was just one or two, but that's my own opinion. It would make for some interesting and heart-wrenching story telling if Buffy needs to destroy all of the slayers she created.

I don't like the idea of getting rid of the slayers for the sake of returning to how things were/just having two slayers - I like the shift to a bigger playing field. However, if handled properly, it could be interesting - and heart-wrenching, as you say - for Buffy to have to take back what she did (and lose lots in the process). However.... I would prefer the idea that progress and change ARE possible, and while there are always consequences, and you have to give things up in order to make progress, even though a lot is lost on the way... in the end, changing the world IS a good thing. It's just that you don't get it for free.

So, Willow's position that slayers together weaken one another...I'd like to see that disproved. Because I am a crazy optimist :)

[Nina]

What if Buffy isn't the one that reverses the slayer spell, but the 'betrayer' ... and if the betrayer isn't, or works with, Twilight (because Twilight and his genocide plan, are evil)... there will be a grey area with two good guys who will be against eachother. This can be Giles & Faith vs Buffy, or Angel vs Buffy, or Dawn vs Buffy etc.

Maybe it's Faith who does it and Faith will keep her power. While Buffy is losing it just like all the other girls.

And wouldn't it be funny if;
Buffy and Angel are the normal humans while Spike the vampire with a soul and Faith the vampire Slayer are taking over ... Buffy and Angel would both be incredibly petty in this case. :D

[Wolfie Gilmore]

What if Buffy isn't the one that reverses the slayer spell, but the 'betrayer' ... and if the betrayer isn't, or works with, Twilight (because Twilight and his genocide plan, are evil)... there will be a grey area with two good guys who will be against eachother. This can be Giles & Faith vs Buffy, or Angel vs Buffy, or Dawn vs Buffy etc.

What if it's Willow and Giles against Buffy? Gosh, that'd be nasty. But rather fun. :D

Dawn vs Buffy would be powerful, though I don't feel they're setting it up. Maybe though this is a case of evil people telling the truth (as Anya said), and this is as the First predicted...when it comes to it, Dawn and Buffy will be on opposite sides? I have a feeling that Dawn would be on the side of magic...perhaps if Buffy ends up being on the side of bringing the end of magic, that would be a problem. The idea of Buffy ending up siding with Twilight is very interesting... though I can't quite see it happening. But who knows.

*is quite drunk so thinks that do not make sense are making sense*


And wouldn't it be funny if;
Buffy and Angel are the normal humans while Spike the vampire with a soul and Faith the vampire Slayer are taking over ... Buffy and Angel would both be incredibly petty in this case. :D [/QUOTE]

Heh! Good fic idea :D

[sueworld]

I'm actually on the side of getting rid of all the "other" slayers in this storyline. I liked it when it was just one or two, but that's my own opinion. It would make for some interesting and heart-wrenching story telling if Buffy needs to destroy all of the slayers she created.

Yes I agree. Maybe not for the right reasons (I never could stick the creation of the Potentials and subsequent Slayers) but as you say it might bring a very interesting storyline with it, and bags of potential for angst. :lol:

[Nina]

My idea of Twilight is that he has some valid points; Right now the good slayers are buzy with protecting themselves and stopping bad slayers ... while the bad slayers are hurting innocents. And the good ones are robbing banks.
And if Buffy (or who the leader will be) gets crazy idea's you can get quite a scary army.

The problem with Twilight is, that he is using the wrong weapons against it. And those methods make him the bad guy, not his ideas. That's why I'm okay with good guys being against the slayers but against the idea that one of the good guys would join Twilight.

[Roses-r-Red]

I don't like the idea of getting rid of the slayers for the sake of returning to how things were/just having two slayers -

For me, it's more about the epic nature of "one girl in all the world" rather than the return to the way things were. I like the unsurmountable odds that Buffy faces by herself and succeeds anyway. Her heroism, to me, is so much more grand.

[icecreamkiller]

I don't think it looks like an egg at all, it looks rather like a crystal or a gem. It seems too flat to be an egg - looks like it's stuck to the wall rather than floating in front of it. If you look at it, it seems that a quarter of it's been broken off and the rupture cracks the other three quarters of the egg. This could have something to do with the Core Four, which would fit with the context of the scene ("Betrayal. The closest, most unexpected.").

Crystals and gemstones have magical and mystical significance, so the missing quarter might indicate betrayal on Willow's part, which would in turn fit with the context of the issue. The color red, commonly associated with Willow in the Buffyverse for obvious reasons (it's not uncommon for her to be called "Red" - Spike and Faith have done it), might also add weight to the theory that Willow is the betrayer.

I'm thinking the location of it has some significance, too - a quarter of it has been broken off, and only three quarters are left; there are three archways in the panel. An archway is, of course, a connection between two different adjacent spaces, which - since there are three archways and three shadowy figures standing almost in front of each one - could indicate three quarters of the Core Four (in one space) separated from the piece that's been broken off (in another space).

But it's Buffy who's standing almost in front of the archway with the egg/crystal over it, which could mean that she's the betrayer - however, the guide makes it clear that she was the one who suffered the betrayal. Which in turn makes me consider the possibility that the broken piece is not one of the Core Four betraying the other three, it's Giles, Willow and Xander collectively betraying Buffy. Xander's splintering away from the group - and particularly Buffy, since the attack he had to witness was on the base of the Slayers she wanted to call, and also since the woman he was growing attracted to was a Slayer who was called because of Buffy's idea and who was killed in a mission proposed by Buffy - has been hinted at several times over the past many issues. We've seen that Willow will ally herself with a master vampire in the future. Buffy views Giles's teaming up with Faith as a form of backstabbing.

The colour red is often associated with sin and guilt - it's also the colour of Twilight's symbol. Add those two and you could consider the possibility of Giles, Willow and Xander teaming up with Twilight against Buffy. It's very possible that Xander will come to see serious issues in the vast number of current Slayers, given that the worst things that have happened to him in the recent past have been related to that. Again, future Willow teams up with a vampire against Slayers. I believe Giles sees, in his own way, that the calling of so many Slayers unbalanced the natural order of things - the Gigi incident was merely an example of the problems that could arise from it.

Just my two cents, which may possibly just be a bunch of bullshit. Alas! :P

[Wolfie Gilmore]

My idea of Twilight is that he has some valid points;
Right now the good slayers are buzy with protecting themselves and stopping bad slayers ... while the bad slayers are hurting innocents. And the good ones are robbing banks.

Well, to be fair, a lot of the good slayers are busy fighting vampires...or Twilight or his minions.


And if Buffy (or who the leader will be) gets crazy idea's you can get quite a scary army.

Yes, absolutely. The danger posed by Buffy's army is very real - she is flying blind, and with the best will in the world, that could go horribly wrong. Seriously, though, if Twilight wasn't a crazy baddy bad bad guy, he should go see Buffy and tell her how to organise her army better if he's so clever.


The problem with Twilight is, that he is using the wrong weapons against it. And those methods make him the bad guy, not his ideas. That's why I'm okay with good guys being against the slayers but against the idea that one of the good guys would join Twilight.

The wrong weapons being...actual weapons. Just give Buffy a telephone call and say, fancy a coffee, I think I can help you in a consultant capacity. :)

For me, it's more about the epic nature of "one girl in all the world" rather than the return to the way things were. I like the unsurmountable odds that Buffy faces by herself and succeeds anyway. Her heroism, to me, is so much more grand.

Right. I just like the idea that the attempt to share her power is a messy business... but in the end, not futile. I don't think Buffy's damned to be alone by her slayerness, that's just a thing she has to go through until she learns how to be part of the world. A protracted version of the solipsism of adolescence (cos, really, doesn't adolescence last til about 30 anyway?)

[Nina]

But it's Buffy who's standing almost in front of the archway with the egg/crystal over it, which could mean that she's the betrayer - however, the guide makes it clear that she was the one who suffered the betrayal. Which in turn makes me consider the possibility that the broken piece is not one of the Core Four betraying the other three, it's Giles, Willow and Xander collectively betraying Buffy. Xander's splintering away from the group - and particularly Buffy, since the attack he had to witness was on the base of the Slayers she wanted to call, and also since the woman he was growing attracted to was a Slayer who was called because of Buffy's idea and who was killed in a mission proposed by Buffy - has been hinted at several times over the past many issues. We've seen that Willow will ally herself with a master vampire in the future. Buffy views Giles's teaming up with Faith as a form of backstabbing.


And that's why I've my theory about Buffy betraying herself. We saw Buffy using a girl for sex, robbing banks, killing people, treating Angel and his team bad, treating Giles bad and choosing her slayers above everything else, incl. innocent people. It could be seen as a betrayel to her old morals ... new Buffy betrays old Buffy.


edit:

Well, to be fair, a lot of the good slayers are busy fighting vampires...or Twilight or his minions.
Agree, but still the question if there will be relativily more good deeds done with 2000 slayers than with two slayers. If there weren't 2000 slayers, there was no goverment army, no Twilight and no bad slayers.


Yes, absolutely. The danger posed by Buffy's army is very real - she is flying blind, and with the best will in the world, that could go horribly wrong. Seriously, though, if Twilight wasn't a crazy baddy bad bad guy, he should go see Buffy and tell her how to organise her army better if he's so clever.
Because Buffy listens to other people very well. ;)
I agree that Twilight is a very bad big bad. But that doesn't erase the fact that 2000 slayers can be a great danger.

[kassyopeia]

I'm fairly certain that Willow, Giles and Faith are out of the running for the betrayer-title. Willow because she says it's not her, which by an unwritten law of heroic fiction means that it really won't be her, and Giles and Faith because they simply don't fit the "most unexpected" label at the moment.

[icecreamkiller]

And that's why I've my theory about Buffy betraying herself. We saw Buffy using a girl for sex, robbing banks, killing people, treating Angel and his team bad, treating Giles bad and choosing her slayers above everything else, incl. innocent people. It could be seen as a betrayel to her old morals ... new Buffy betrays old Buffy.

Maybe not a betrayal to her old self, but a betrayal to what the Slayer essentially is? The Slayer was not created as a warrior for good, she was created as a warrior for mankind. But Buffy, in robbing banks and being more open to the idea of killing humans, seems to be going down a path that could lead to her choosing her Slayer army over normal humans - which would tie in nicely with the idea (discussed in another thread, though I honestly can't recall which one now) that Buffy is switching roles with Faith in believing that Slayers are automatically better than other humans.

I'm fairly certain that Willow, Giles and Faith are out of the running for the betrayer-title. Willow because she says it's not her, which by an unwritten law of heroic fiction means that it really won't be her, and Giles and Faith because they simply don't fit the "most unexpected" label at the moment.

Doesn't the present arc negate that law? I'm not affirming it does, since we've no idea what future Willow's true intentions are, but it's a valid doubt, isn't it?

[Nina]

Maybe not a betrayal to her old self, but a betrayal to what the Slayer essentially is? The Slayer was not created as a warrior for good, she was created as a warrior for mankind. But Buffy, in robbing banks and being more open to the idea of killing humans, seems to be going down a path that could lead to her choosing her Slayer army over normal humans - which would tie in nicely with the idea (discussed in another thread, though I honestly can't recall which one now) that Buffy is switching roles with Faith in believing that Slayers are automatically better than other humans.

Oh I like that one, which makes the words in 'Damage' even more hypocrite, Angel is not the one who is betraying them, but it's Buffy. Which brings us back to the very ironic thing that the teams aren't on the same side anymore, only it's not like Andrew tried to say ... team Angel is still on the old side, team Buffy is the team that left. Angel saves innocente right now, where Buffy is forgetting about the innocents and she is ready to pick her slayers above innocents. Those soldiers she killed, were probably not evil men ... Angel she double crossed in a very cold way to get her slayer, robbing banks ... mmm that can be a fight between team Angel and team Buffy.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

And that's why I've my theory about Buffy betraying herself. We saw Buffy using a girl for sex, robbing banks, killing people, treating Angel and his team bad, treating Giles bad and choosing her slayers above everything else, incl. innocent people. It could be seen as a betrayel to her old morals ... new Buffy betrays old Buffy.

I I don't think she treats Giles badly. I think Giles was a naughty, wetworks working boy. And I don't blame her for not trusting Angel. However...I really like the idea of the betrayal being Buffy herself. Not because she's done something bad, per se, but the idea that she plays into Twilight's hands because he successfully presses on her weak points (her lack of direction/understanding of the implication of her actions). So, what the First Evil should've done last season but was too lame to do. Lameass.



I'm fairly certain that Willow, Giles and Faith are out of the running for the betrayer-title. Willow because she says it's not her, which by an unwritten law of heroic fiction means that it really won't be her, and Giles and Faith because they simply don't fit the "most unexpected" label at the moment.

Well, Willow said it wasn't her, but if it was future!Willow, then she wasn't lying at the time. But I still don't think Willow quite works, since they're already bringing on the dark(ish) Willow plot, and that would seem too soon a reveal if Willow's to be the betrayer. Hmm, need a better term than dark willow since she's not quite the same creature, imo....Willow the Grey? The Willimortal? Highlander Willow? Nah. Darkish Willow is the best I can think of for the moment. Druwilla? Clutching at straws here...help?

Timelord Willow?

Anyway....I think all bets are wide open (I don't know from betting, whatever happens when it could be anything), though perhaps not Giles, because it's not "the closest" with him and Buffy any more.

Dawn, Xander, Willow seem the most obvious from that point of view.

Maybe not a betrayal to her old self, but a betrayal to what the Slayer essentially is? The Slayer was not created as a warrior for good, she was created as a warrior for mankind. But Buffy, in robbing banks and being more open to the idea of killing humans, seems to be going down a path that could lead to her choosing her Slayer army over normal humans - which would tie in nicely with the idea (discussed in another thread, though I honestly can't recall which one now) that Buffy is switching roles with Faith in believing that Slayers are automatically better than other humans.

Yes, I like that. The idea of Buffy pushing her "I am the law" schtick too far....say, killing humans. If she crosses that line in a context other than self-defence, I think that could be the ultimate betrayal of what the good slayer is.

[kassyopeia]

But Buffy, in robbing banks and being more open to the idea of killing humans, seems to be going down a path that could lead to her choosing her Slayer army over normal humans - which would tie in nicely with the idea (discussed in another thread, though I honestly can't recall which one now) that Buffy is switching roles with Faith in believing that Slayers are automatically better than other humans.
Hah, my favourite topic. :) Ethically, the two are completely different - it's immoral to think of yourself as better than others, but it isn't immoral to think of members of your flock before others. Superiority complex vs. protecting one's family, basically. Effectively, they lead to the same policies though, which is pretty scary.
Doesn't the present arc negate that law?
You mean the "Time of your Life" arc? Not following you there, sorry. :)

[Nina]

I I don't think she treats Giles badly. I think Giles was a naughty, wetworks working boy. And I don't blame her for not trusting Angel. However...I really like the idea of the betrayal being Buffy herself.
In both cases she had no idea where she was talking about. She didn't let Giles do his story, and she probably doesn't even know who Gunn and Fred are in Angel's team. Giles wasn't showing his best side and Angel was in a bad place, but some people deserve to do at least their stories before a smack down by Andrew.

what the First Evil should've done last season but was too lame to do. Lameass. :lol:


Hah, my favourite topic. :) Ethically, the two are completely different - it's immoral to think of yourself as better than others, but it isn't immoral to think of members of your flock before others. Superiority complex vs. protecting one's family, basically. Effectively, they lead to the same policies though, which is pretty scary.
But what if your family is a family because they should save mankind. And you let innocents die, to save your family?

[icecreamkiller]

Willow the Grey? The Willimortal? Highlander Willow? Nah. Darkish Willow is the best I can think of for the moment. Druwilla? Clutching at straws here...help?

Timelord Willow?

Willow kills Dumbledore!

You mean the "Time of your Life" arc? Not following you there, sorry.

Doesn't Willow allying herself with Harth constitute as a form of betrayal?

Hah, my favourite topic. Ethically, the two are completely different - it's immoral to think of yourself as better than others, but it isn't immoral to think of members of your flock before others. Superiority complex vs. protecting one's family, basically. Effectively, they lead to the same policies though, which is pretty scary.

Ooooh! I really like that. So many possibilities for character development in all sorts of crazy directions. I really hope they go down that path, of forcing a choice between mankind and Slayerkind. Not that Slayers aren't humans, but you know what I mean.

[sueworld]

Doesn't Willow allying herself with Harth constitute as a form of betrayal?

We don't know what her true motivations are yet. For all we know it could not be all as it appears. I mean surely Joss wouldn't go down the same path twice?

[kassyopeia]

Lameass.
:roll:
Well, Willow said it wasn't her, but if it was future!Willow, then she wasn't lying at the time.
Mmmh, but this is totally not about lying. Certain characters, and Willow (irrespective of colouring) falls into that category, just aren't mistaken when they make statements like that. It's a thing. (Such a good argument. :))
Willow the Grey?
Grey? As in between black and white? As in between night and day? As in Twilight? *gulp*

[icecreamkiller]

We don't know what her true motivations are yet. For all we know it could not be all as it appears. I mean surely Joss wouldn't go down the same path twice?

Oh, I know, which is why I said in an earlier post that I wasn't affirming that Willow was betraying Buffy. I just think it's a possibility, which is why I'm putting it out there.

[sueworld]

I'm expecting a 360 on this story idea. If not I'll be rather disappointed. :s

[Slayer+]

I don't think it looks like an egg at all, it looks rather like a crystal or a gem. It seems too flat to be an egg - looks like it's stuck to the wall rather than floating in front of it.



It might not be an egg but it's definitely egg-shaped, not flat. If you look at both panels you can see the black stand it's floating above is in the middle of the chamber so it can't be stuck to the wall.

Since the interior is hollow I'm with kassyopia in wondering what (or who...) came out of it.

[Charles]

The egg is probably a reference to Dawn and her condition.

So I would guess Dawn is the betrayer.

[icecreamkiller]

It might not be an egg but it's definitely egg-shaped, not flat. If you look at both panels you can see the black stand it's floating above is in the middle of the chamber so it can't be stuck to the wall.

Oh. Right. Oops! :D

That puts the kibosh on my theory, then. Unless you still take into account the three archways (the separation of three of the four from the fourth one) and imagine that it's representative of one of them showing their true intentions, or one of them being forced out. I dunno, too many possibilities.

[KingofCretins]

There are many kinds of betrayel in the shows,

And when we are talking about all those births and stuff ... Dawn can be seen as Buffy's child. Just a mention, no idea if it fits anywhere.

For it to be set up like this, though, it's presumably a bigger humdinger of one. As always, I just don't want it to be a Scooby.

You actually hit on one of my pet theories here, btw -- since I do find it pretty likely that Dawn *is* Buffy's child in much more than a figurative sense.

The idea that slayers don't gain strength from one another, as Willow puts it, is a chilling one indeed, and taps into the idea of Buffy's isolation which, as you say, has been a factor since the beginning. Perhaps destiny is more powerful than Buffy allowed? Changing the status quo not really possible? I find that too unpleasant though! Surely not....surely?

*Cries*

I want to think that Willow will be proven wrong. I think she will. But I do think it's something that has to be dealt with. It'd be too easy if Buffy could just change the world and the world not push back in a reactionary way. Not just the world of people, but the fabric of the mystical universe, somehow.

Basically, there are two sides to the argument. FDW argues that it doesn't connect them, doesn't strengthen them, that Slayers are alone in a crowd of faces, even if all the other faces belong to Slayers. It's certainly the position that the forces around Buffy have taken many, many times, and which she was always defied. Senaya in "Restless" was shouted down with Buffy's assertion that she as the Slayer is still not alone. She refutes Dracula, she refutes Spike, she refutes the First. Now it's Willow herself.

But there's another voice that has spoken that would stick up for Buffy's old defiance -- the Unnamed Slayer. She would argue that Slayers are bonded together, that there is a kinship and a sense of belonging there that can't be duplicated.

Since much of what's happened since has been to raise challenges to her belief, I think that might be the core argument of Season 8.

We don't know what her true motivations are yet. For all we know it could not be all as it appears. I mean surely Joss wouldn't go down the same path twice?

No answer, but best banner ever :)

:roll:

Mmmh, but this is totally not about lying. Certain characters, and Willow (irrespective of colouring) falls into that category, just aren't mistaken when they make statements like that. It's a thing. (Such a good argument. :))

Grey? As in between black and white? As in between night and day? As in Twilight? *gulp*

I feel more certain now than ever that Willow isn't Twilight (well, obviously not), or connected to him. Willow is clearly unhappy about this whole end-of-magic thing, and that it's brought the world to the dystopian vision of "Fray" and that it's basically Buffy's fault (well, HER'S and Buffy's fault). So why, if Twilight is the agent of that change, would Willow be helping him? Not only would it create a paradox, it doesn't make much sense, motivation-wise. Willow is there to avenge or at least teach Buffy the lessons she should have already known when she was (presumably) defeated by Twilight, or forced to end all magic herself somehow. But Willow wouldn't actually encourage or sponsor his activities. There's no upside for her there. He is still her enemy, she just (at least in the future) believes that Buffy is the problem, too.

Perhaps the theories that Buffy and Twilight would end up on the same side at some point aren't nuts.

[Slayer+]

Re-reading the No Future For You arc: Giles has Roden's book with the twilight symbol on it yet he's failed to contact Buffy about it. Maybe he's spending his time trying to figure it all out but why no contact?

[Roses-r-Red]

Perhaps the theories that Buffy and Twilight would end up on the same side at some point aren't nuts.

This is what makes me so excited about the story in Season 8. There's no simple black and white answer. It reminds me of the lesser themes of Season 2 with Ford, Jenny Calendar, Angel/Angelus, etc. I love the idea that maybe Twilight isn't doing this for the wrong reasons and Future Willow probably isn't either. Buffy is going to have some tough decisions to deal with in the rest of this story.

About the egg thing - The more I think about it, the more the idea of "birth" and descendants (Queen/Prince) seems to make sense, especially with the Slayer line coming into play in the Fray arc.

[Curiouswolf]

I don't think either Twilight or Future Dark Willow are the evilest evil. I think they are both playing complicated, Machievellian games that could blow up in their faces. They are probably like the Seventh Doctor in old '90's Doctor Who novels or John Constantine.

Anyway, what if the new Queen in Buffy's dream that might replace her isn't a Slayer, at all, but something else? Maybe a friend or lover of Saga Vasuki's that's more powerful than Willow :eviltail:.

I think whatever crawled out of that egg and attacked Buffy is related to the betrayal and isn't symbolic.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Those soldiers she killed, were probably not evil men ... Angel she double crossed in a very cold way to get her slayer, robbing banks ... mmm that can be a fight between team Angel and team Buffy.

I don't this is going to be as neat a battle as "teams" or armies versus armies - it'll be fragments vs fragments, imo. Factions and dissent and all kinds of ideological splits. We've already got the Giles/Buffy rift, and the objections Willow has to Buffy's way of doing things, clearly grow strong enough for her to make herself put up with 200 years of bad roots.

FDW argues that it doesn't connect them, doesn't strengthen them, that Slayers are alone in a crowd of faces, even if all the other faces belong to Slayers. It's certainly the position that the forces around Buffy have taken many, many times, and which she was always defied. Senaya in "Restless" was shouted down with Buffy's assertion that she as the Slayer is still not alone. She refutes Dracula, she refutes Spike, she refutes the First. Now it's Willow herself.

I hope she's wrong. And, as you say, the Unnamed Slayer, not-Buffy, has it closer. Because not-Buffy did have a first-hand experience of that bond. In the past, Buffy's said that Willow doesn't understand what it means to be a slayer... and perhaps that is actually true in this case?


Since much of what's happened since has been to raise challenges to her belief, I think that might be the core argument of Season 8.

Basically, a lot of this season boils down to: Was the spell really "bloody brilliant", or when they changed the world, did they make it worse? Though I'm guessing the answer will lie in the middle.



I feel more certain now than ever that Willow isn't Twilight (well, obviously not), or connected to him.

Yes, though I think that whatever the betrayal is, if it IS Willow, could lead to weaken Buffy in the face of Twilight. There could be a case of no conscious/intentional connection, but a instead a nasty chain of causation that doesn't require any "going evil" on Willow's part aside from the whole dark magicks keeping her alive thing. They're at the mercy of history - "one fcking thing after another" - with the further complicating factor that time is not linear, so good intentions have every opportunity to get twisted, not just by what comes after, but by what comes before... and by trying to second-guess causation (which isn't always obvious, especially where apocalypses are concerned).



Perhaps the theories that Buffy and Twilight would end up on the same side at some point aren't nuts.

Ok, I was drunk while suggesting that... but you never know :D

[sueworld]

No answer, but best banner ever :)



Glad to see that you recognise the quote. I'm always fascinated to see what certain folks have been saying about me on the net.....:xd Very entertaining for all the wrong reasons of course. :roll:

As to what Twilights/Willows motivations, I have no idea whatsoever.

As others on here have said I suspect the whole arc for this to be maybe tearing Buffy down emotionally before building her back up again (yes that old one) and making her realise that her judgment may not be all that it should be.

[Matt]

Is it possible that the red egg could actually represent Buffy as an entity and that when Buffy is betrayed it causes the egg to break because of how severe the betrayal is, like Robin said "Betrayal. The closest, the most unexpected."

Also, Buffy has been known as the Queen of the Slayers in the book of the same name by Nancy Holder, I know it's not canon because we now have a season 8 and that involves Buffy going to Rome with the Immortal, so no, but I think it's safe to assume that Buffy is still the Queen of them because she's been a slayer for longest, but she doesn't die, unless it's a metaphorical death, like her powers are removed.

Maybe she gives birth and her powers are somehow sucked up by the child and it leaves Buffy powerless, which would be a betrayal of some kind and it would be close to her, or if a demon impregnates her (like Cordy in Expecting) and the point is for the powers to be removed, kind of like the Groosalugg and the Kumshuk or whatever it was.

[vampmogs]

I've actually theorised for a while now that at the end of the season Buffy may be the one who forces the hand to reverse the slayer spell. Wether this means she allies herself with Twilight or not, I'm unsure. Given the killing humans talk of 'No Futue For You' I'm speculating that at some point down the line Buffy will in fact kill one. I'm also speculating that by the end of the season Twilight's argument will win Buffy over. He'll point out Gigi, point out how the slayers haven't necessarily made the world better as he did in 'A Beautiful Sunset' he'll point out Simone's gang and... if I'm right, Buffy killing a human. Buffy will think Twilight is right, probably kill him out of principle for the attempted genocide and then reverse the spell. I think it's exactly the kind of twist and shock Joss would want.

... with season 9 pitting Buffy against the Scoobs who believe she's betrayed them and everything they created, probably both sides fighting for the scythe and with all that emotional conflict going on.. ok that's a fanfic I've roughly plotted out.. but I think it's possible :D

In regards to the egg.. no clue, but I don't think it's just symbolising something. Everything else shown has been very literal, the bank robbery, Willow's involvement with Vasuki and most likely, Buffy beaten and weeping on the floor. Don't see why the egg would be any different in that regard. All I know is that if we get any preview panels of an issue with Buffy wearing the same clothes that she's in when she's crying, the fandoms going to be jumping up and down in a frenzy because we know the betrayals about to happen :roll:

Oh and the lion/demon from Buffy's dream in 'No Future For You' personally I think it's kind of like EvilCordy/Beast Master, and just like the Beast.. "Twilight.. has a boss." I think this whole thing is bigger than just one man. I think he's the poster boy for the campaign and in charge of a lot, but I think there's something else bigger who set this whole thing in motion.

What I love about this season is that there's so many splinters in the story with so many things branching off in all different directions, I can't wait to see it all unravel and make sense and connect. I'm as excited for the conclusion of season 8 as I am for each new issue, I can't wait to look back on it in it's completed state and see how every piece of the puzzle fit.

Allie said that we'll find out who Buffy met in Issue #16 but possibly not for a while. I know some people hate that, but I love it. It'll be a nice surprise the same way the Willow/Kumiko/Saga Vasuki stuff was for 'Wolves At The Gate.' Seriously who could have predicted that story would get a boost in that arc, it was so unexpected but such a pleasant surprise. I hope they do that with all the mysteries.

[Charles]

It all goes back to Joss's original statments of How he thinks the world will see and deal with a group of 'empowered women' (his version' and 'where the most pain is'.

And given Joss's warped worldview that somehow equates enslavement to power with female powerment, I suspect whatever resolution he pens is going to be seriously flawed, just like Chosen's idiotic premise was.

The world will find out about everything they thought was myth is real, that women are the only things fighting back against it and the betrayal will come into play and zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..

...I don't think Buffy is either going to end magic or allow Twilight to end magic. She may do something that allows magic to end at some later date down the road or gives that choice to someone else but I sincerely doubt she's going to be the that does it. So the whole storyline with Fray will in retrospect be one giant waste of time and potential. Just like the show was at the end.

[kassyopeia]

The world will find out about everything they thought was myth is real, that women are the only things fighting back against it
Spoiler tags, please.

[Slayer+]

I believe the egg is an actual object not an abstract/metaphorical-thingy. One thing to consider is: there is a second Buffy out there. It might be a bit of a stretch but Willow and Buffy never approach the Buffy they see on the ground. What if it's not her? Seriphilian wouldn't be lying, technically. "Demons. Playing games." That's what Buffy said at the end. She could be right.

OR

What if the betrayer is the Decoy Buffy from Rome? It would be close: they're both Slayers and she's wielding Buffy's name so they Scoobs must trust her. It would definitely be unexpected. The Unnamed Slayer from the Chain described how powerful Buffy's name was. What if the Decoy Buffy from Rome gets too used it? What if she goes on a Gigi power trip and takes the name for herself?

[KingofCretins]

I don't this is going to be as neat a battle as "teams" or armies versus armies - it'll be fragments vs fragments, imo. Factions and dissent and all kinds of ideological splits. We've already got the Giles/Buffy rift, and the objections Willow has to Buffy's way of doing things, clearly grow strong enough for her to make herself put up with 200 years of bad roots.

The battle for the hearts and minds is already very Battle of the Five Armies, and right now, Willow seems positions as the Beorn of the piece, since... she's her own army. Really, there's Twilight's position (end of magic, eradication of the Slayers to restore human ascendancy). There's Buffy's position (not being bad is what separates us from the bad guys, and my "army" will protect the world by the methods I believe in). There's Simone's position (we're Slayers, we can do whatever the hell we want with whatever tools we can come by). There's the Old Guard magic position (which I think might encompass Giles, the demons from "The Long Way Home", probably Vasuki as well, and perhaps even Willow, but I think she has her own argument, or she'd stand with Vasuki still -- basically that the old ways of magical mystery underlining a world of human unawareness should be preserved).

I hope she's wrong. And, as you say, the Unnamed Slayer, not-Buffy, has it closer. Because not-Buffy did have a first-hand experience of that bond. In the past, Buffy's said that Willow doesn't understand what it means to be a slayer... and perhaps that is actually true in this case?

I just did a rewatch of the last four episodes of Season 7 last night, and I came away from "Chosen" feeling very much that Willow is wrong. Slayers do, Slayers can. You can't watch the symphony that the Slayers play fighting together and not believe that they were stronger together. It's an existential debate that parallels a scene in "Signs" between Mel Gibson and Joaquin Phoenix over the nature of miracles. Rewatching "Chosen" made me think that the Buffyverse is ultimately optimistic in that pro-miracle way, and that Willow will be just another on the long list that Buffy proves wrong -- she walks, talks, shops, sneezes AND gains strength from other Slayers.

Basically, a lot of this season boils down to: Was the spell really "bloody brilliant", or when they changed the world, did they make it worse? Though I'm guessing the answer will lie in the middle.

Or more specifically, both -- it was bloody brilliant, and certainly innovative. Plus, even if the history of the Buffyverse records that the plan was a bad one, like Angel's in "Not Fade Away", Buffy has the consolation of knowing that she really didn't have any other moves left to make.

Yes, though I think that whatever the betrayal is, if it IS Willow, could lead to weaken Buffy in the face of Twilight. There could be a case of no conscious/intentional connection, but a instead a nasty chain of causation that doesn't require any "going evil" on Willow's part aside from the whole dark magicks keeping her alive thing. They're at the mercy of history - "one fcking thing after another" - with the further complicating factor that time is not linear, so good intentions have every opportunity to get twisted, not just by what comes after, but by what comes before... and by trying to second-guess causation (which isn't always obvious, especially where apocalypses are concerned).

Like a parodox -- Willow perceives that Twilight comes because of Buffy, and that it's her fault that magic is removed, and puts her centuries-long plan against Buffy in motion which resonates through time and actually helps Twilight win? Perhaps even creates Twilight, the reason Willow resented Buffy at all?

Ok, I was drunk while suggesting that... but you never know :D

Get some more booze in you so we can figure out the plot of 8.20.

Glad to see that you recognise the quote. I'm always fascinated to see what certain folks have been saying about me on the net.....:xd Very entertaining for all the wrong reasons of course. :roll:

I smiled when I said it, and it was said with affection :) And it's at least as far a satirical statement as when people say I look at everything through Buffy/Xander :)

... with season 9 pitting Buffy against the Scoobs who believe she's betrayed them and everything they created, probably both sides fighting for the scythe and with all that emotional conflict going on.. ok that's a fanfic I've roughly plotted out.. but I think it's possible :D

Not sure about that... I can't imagine an entire season hinging on war between the Scoobies, especially the (theoretically at least) concluding season -- I really hope/expect that by the time we're playing out the arc in 8.36 through 8.40, the Scoobies will stand together like the TPB cover for "The Long Way Home".

Oh and the lion/demon from Buffy's dream in 'No Future For You' personally I think it's kind of like EvilCordy/Beast Master, and just like the Beast.. "Twilight.. has a boss." I think this whole thing is bigger than just one man. I think he's the poster boy for the campaign and in charge of a lot, but I think there's something else bigger who set this whole thing in motion.

Heh... Emmie and I were speculating the same thing the other day. We took the parallel further by suggesting that if Twilight is the Beast, perhaps Willow isn't the Beastmaster. She's Angelus -- the one-step-beyond-the-breaking-point morale breaker that was drawn out on purpose. Which leaves us in need of a Beastmaster, the true Big Bad.

Saga Vasuki. Seriously, leaving aside extra-dimensional entities like Jasmine or the Senior Partners, the only being I think we've met in the Buffyverse that plays on the same level of badassery as that chick is Mesek'tet. She could be pulling all these strings to draw more power to herself, to put the Slayers back in their relative place, perhaps even to take over the world herself. Not to go all Matrix-y, but like the Oracle said to Neo, "what do all (people) with power want? More power."

[sueworld]

I smiled when I said it, and it was said with affection And it's at least as far a satirical statement as when people say I look at everything through Buffy/Xander

Considering the context of where/what else was said, forgive me If I have difficulty in believing you.....:roll: But anyhoo...

Rewatching "Chosen" made me think that the Buffyverse is ultimately optimistic in that pro-miracle way, and that Willow will be just another on the long list that Buffy proves wrong -- she walks, talks, shops, sneezes AND gains strength from other Slayers.


Even though Buffy doesn't appear to share that bond that the others do?

Like a parodox -- Willow perceives that Twilight comes because of Buffy, and that it's her fault that magic is removed, and puts her centuries-long plan against Buffy in motion which resonates through time and actually helps Twilight win? Perhaps even creates Twilight, the reason Willow resented Buffy at all?


Sounds like a possibility, but would Wilow be that ruthless. Twilight has been responsible for some pretty awful things uptil now. Willow would know this in the future, so what would cause her to put together such a drastic plan?

[vampmogs]

Not sure about that... I can't imagine an entire season hinging on war between the Scoobies, especially the (theoretically at least) concluding season -- I really hope/expect that by the time we're playing out the arc in 8.36 through 8.40, the Scoobies will stand together like the TPB cover for "The Long Way Home".

Oh I don't think the entire season would be this. In my head at least I could see a situation where something else comes up that's bigger, that forces them to work together again for a common goal. And down the line, either eliminate somehow the option of making all the potentials slayers again (out of the mere fact it'd be repetitive) which kind of again, eliminates the need for them to be against each other. I just couldn't see Buffy doing this and everyone just agreeing with her, especially after Xander's talk to her about the slayers in 'A Beautiful Sunset.' And I’d actually enjoy the steady build of trust that could form between them again, that is if my theory would be correct and that the Scoobs would feel betrayed Buffy reversed the spell in the first place.

Heh... Emmie and I were speculating the same thing the other day. We took the parallel further by suggesting that if Twilight is the Beast, perhaps Willow isn't the Beastmaster. She's Angelus -- the one-step-beyond-the-breaking-point morale breaker that was drawn out on purpose. Which leaves us in need of a Beastmaster, the true Big Bad.

It's very possible. I don't think Willow is truly going to be anything that major really. I've even thought that 'Time of Your Life' my in fact be the only time we see 'Dark Willow' and that in the present, her presence is more or less averted. Kind of a one shot like the Master was in ‘The Wish’ or Vamp Xander.

Saga Vasuki. Seriously, leaving aside extra-dimensional entities like Jasmine or the Senior Partners, the only being I think we've met in the Buffyverse that plays on the same level of badassery as that chick is Mesek'tet. She could be pulling all these strings to draw more power to herself, to put the Slayers back in their relative place, perhaps even to take over the world herself. Not to go all Matrix-y, but like the Oracle said to Neo, "what do all (people) with power want? More power."

She's definitely going to play her part. I'm still undecided on wether or not she's directly tied to Twilight in anyway or working on her own account. It's still unclear wether or not Vasuki isn't exactly like Jasmine or the Senior Partners. Giles may not have been lying when he told Angel in 'Shells' that Willow was on another plain. Maybe that's when she met Vasuki?

Now I wished I'd asked a different question to Allie over on Slayalive.. what I should have asked if is season 8 would be dealing in anyway with what went on between the Scoobs and Angel's team in Ats season 5. I think it needs to be addressed or at least tied in, I hope it is.

[MaverickKing]

The egg is probably a reference to Dawn and her condition.

So I would guess Dawn is the betrayer.

I've been saying that for ages.

[Kold]

They're at the mercy of history - "one fcking thing after another"
You're right, Alan Bennett is Twilight!!

I'm not sure yet if I subscribe to the theory that Buffy ends up with Twilight. I don't think Buffy is ever the type to be convinced by someone like Twilight and I don't see her going back on her empowerment decision. The Slayer Spell was everything to Buffy -- she ended her isolation, shared her gift around the world. She decided that her curse would be a gift to give to women. Of course she saw this from her perspective in Sunnydale, in which all of the girls around her were as a rule jealous of the power she and Faith had. The Slayer Spell was a gift to them. Season 8 is showing Buffy being pulled up short in that department... it's not all standing up to abusers and being good at baseball. So maybe she is going to see the mistake she's made -- I'm just not sure that she would go back on the decision, particularly if it meant agreeing with an enemy.

Now, Willow... someone on another thread, if I'm not mistaken, raised the point that if the Future-Willow had used up her power, was the solely responsible for bringing Buffy to the future? Or was she saving her remaining power for that action? If not, where did the power come from? Twilight, or Saga Vasuki, or who?

I wonder if the Slayer Spell killed the Slayer line. With every potential a Slayer, who holds the Slayer line? Is it still Faith? Or has the Slayer line been blocked by the spell, and when all of the Slayers die of old age will there be more potentials to pass it on to? Does anyone know why Fray is the first Slayer in centuries? I don't see why the line wouldn't be passed down by Faith to a potential that had not been born/hit puberty at the time of the spell, but my instincts tell me that the spell destroyed the line in some way.

I don't see the betrayal as coming from Xander or Dawn. Where's the focus for that to be so? This season has been about Buffy and Willow -- and why not? They are the power figures, the sovereigns over the operations of "good" in their respective fields. But Buffy is the Queen. I wonder if, like KoC has discussed, Willow and Buffy might find themselves on different ideological fences (btw KoC, sweet Hobbit analogy... I'm totally auditioning for Guillermo del Toro's movie).

I've written quite a bit without really saying much. Season 8 is pretty much a mystery to me, especially because I read it by transcript and not by comic. :p But I am loving it... particularly with this latest "Time of Your Life" plotline I feel that some aspects of the season are more sophisticated in plotting and theme than a lot of the show was. More freedom or maturity for Joss, perhaps. :)

[Wolfie Gilmore]

You're right, Alan Bennett is Twilight!!

Though, he could also be Glory:

"Life is rather like a tin of sardines, we're all of us looking for the key”

You know, apart from the sardines thing.

Or perhaps Twilight is Bob Barker?


I'm not sure yet if I subscribe to the theory that Buffy ends up with Twilight. I don't think Buffy is ever the type to be convinced by someone like Twilight and I don't see her going back on her empowerment decision.

Except, perhaps, if she realised it came to nothing (cf her future research in Fray's library)? Though, I don't think she'd ever choose Twilight's team because she thought it had the right idea. Only if teaming up with Twilight could help her fight some greater evil. Still, I don't think there's a greater evil around out there at the moment, so unless something new arrives... it seems unlikely. Since Future Dark Willow doesn't seem much of a threat (though appearances, not to be trusted of course).

I like to think that Buffy and Willow will resolve what needs resolving (complex time twisty friendship issues) and face Twilight together. That would be nice. Which means perhaps there isn't much chance of it happening, what with "nice" not being the watchword of this season.

I used to think that the ideological split would be Giles/Buffy, but then Willow's doubts about Buffy's approach to things have taken them further apart. I don't think it's necessarily a question of ideology with Willow and Buffy - not that they believe in a different system per se, but that Willow might regret a decision they both made (the slayer spell), or come to doubt Buffy's ability to make the right choices... leading to a schism.