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Sosa lola
09-08-08, 01:39 PM
I've been reading reviews of Buffy S8 and Angel-Spike: After the Fall on LJ since they started. I've noticed how some of the Angel: After the Fall fans call Buffy S8 "Season One", like they compare it to S1 of Buffy. Almost all their reviews they just can't stop referring to S8 as S1.

Why is that? Is it because S8 has things that didn't happen on TV like giants? But then also After the Fall has weird things happening, like George the fish.

Because seriously, I see nothing of S1 in S8. Xander isn't the same as 16 year old Xander. Willow isn't the same as 16 year old Willow. And while Buffy learned to joke around instead of being a stiff emotionless leader, she's also not the same as 16 year old Buffy, who was too careless and romantic-driven.

S1 didn't have lesbians and mature storylines like Buffy/Satsu. S1 didn't have the complicated storyline of Buffy's detachment from everything. S1 doesn't have a complicated story-arc with mysteries and few clues. It was mostly: Buffy slays vampires and must kill The Master.

So again, why do they call it S1?

Is it because they hate it? (Most possibly) Is it because Buffy learned to loosen up a little? Is it because it's in a comic form? Is it because of the art?

If you hate it, just say I hate it. If it because Buffy is joking around, it's not like she was a stone without feeling in S7, she joked around with her friends and Spike. If it's because it's a comic, then After the Fall is also a comic. If it's because of the art, then blame the artist, not the storyline.

Nina
09-08-08, 02:06 PM
I've never seen it, and I've no idea why some people do it. My guess; between season 7 and 8 is a big gap of time and season 8 is a complete new situation ... season 1 of the era with more than 2 slayers and a new setting, new characters etc.. Angel:ATF still has all the already known characters (okay ... George and Dragon are new .. but no major characters like Satsu or Renee.), in LA and it's what happens after NFA without a time gap of more than a year.

Like I said, I never saw it ... but I'm also not sure if they see it as a negative thing to call it season 1 ... and I doubt that they compare it to season 1, because almost nothing is the same.

I won't do it myself, but if their reason is what I think that it is ... I don't think that it's a really bad thing. They see it as a new chapter in Buffy's life.

Rowan Hawthorn
09-08-08, 02:10 PM
If you hate it, just say I hate it.

Never gonna happen. Too many pretentious asses who can't admit that their personal likes and dislikes are just that - personal opinion. Always gotta try and rationalize'em as "objective fact." Waste of time trying to carry on a conversation with them.

Sosa lola
09-08-08, 03:18 PM
I've never seen it, and I've no idea why some people do it.

It's mostly on LJ, never seen it in forums, so that's a plus. And it sure looks like they're using this comparison as an insult to S8. Because I agree with you, S8 is like S1, S4 and S6 that it's a new chapter: different themes and setting. I'm guessing, and I could be wrong, that they call it S1 because they think the storyline in childish and the characters act like their 16 year old persona, which is all very wrong and I'm not sure why they think that.

I don't want to generalize, but all of those I've seen who call S8 "A S1 look alike" are Spike fans. So maybe, they just didn't get invested in S8 because Spike isn't there -which some admitted it and there's nothing wrong with that reasoning- not to mention that Buffy never mentioned Spike except for his appearance in her threesome fantasy. Many Spike fans were offended by that.

kassyopeia
09-08-08, 03:30 PM
It's just such a weird comparison. Season 8 is quite similar to season 4, in some ways (following on from "Graduation Day"/"Chosen", which are similar finales, involving the military, etc), so I'd get that comparison.

Season 1 is a classic, even if one dislikes most of the episodes, while season 8 is not a classic (yet). Season 1 is very monster-of-the-week-centric, season 8 seems extremely arc-centric so far. Where's the similarity?

Matt
09-08-08, 04:27 PM
I think it seems somewhat like season 1 in the sense that there was a huge break during which we have no idea what happened (like the movie and season 1) and are slowly getting filled in, ie Xander spending a year with Dracula and Willow seeing the snake woman (like season 1 where we found out Buffy had burnt down the gym, been expelled etc.)

I think also because it's a totally new storyline, there are now hundreds of slayers, including Buffy and Faith and in a way we're getting re-introduced to the characters because of the changes they've been through.

That's the only way I see it being like season 1.

Wolfie Gilmore
09-08-08, 04:33 PM
Yeah, as Matt says, I think they're thinking of it (definitely seen one LJ saying as much explicitly) as a completely new story, that's not really Buffy.

vampmogs
10-08-08, 12:00 PM
It's easy to rationalise it as that for those who aren't getting their own way... ;)

LJ is pretty negative about season 8 in general, aside from a few exceptions. Each to their own an’ all but I do find some comments posted on there more than a tad hypercritical and it seems like there’s double standards when it comes to season eight.

I'm pretty sure the season one comments are meant to be negative, it's certainly what I've gathered from the context. I've viewed some saying they were going to treat season 8 like they would season one before the comic even came out, I don't think some were that interested to really give it a go at all. *shrugs*

ThePoet's<3
11-08-08, 06:11 AM
And essentially we are back to the three Scoobies. That's very much Season 8 minus Giles.

Anon
11-08-08, 07:59 AM
I think it seems somewhat like season 1 in the sense that there was a huge break during which we have no idea what happened (like the movie and season 1).Sorry, but I have to point out that the movie and season 1 take place in different universes. The people who make the season 8 = season 1 remark might be referring to this (i.e. they are saying that s8 takes place in a different universe everything that came before it), of course, but given the number of people who fail to realise the above, I doubt that somehow.

sueworld
11-08-08, 11:40 AM
It's easy to rationalise it as that for those who aren't getting their own way... ;)

LJ is pretty negative about season 8 in general, aside from a few exceptions. Each to their own an’ all but I do find some comments posted on there more than a tad hypercritical and it seems like there’s double standards when it comes to season eight.

I'm pretty sure the season one comments are meant to be negative, it's certainly what I've gathered from the context. I've viewed some saying they were going to treat season 8 like they would season one before the comic even came out, I don't think some were that interested to really give it a go at all. Shrugs.

First off I've never seen it called 'season one' myself. Secondly Calling some folks genuine concerns about season 8 'hypercritical' is a bit rich. It's the easy way to just blindside other peoples genuine criticisms of this series just by labeling them all 'Spike fans' (ha as if that meant anything) or those who just aren't getting their own way or who don't want to give it a chance.

Many Buffy fans on lj started buying this series when it first came out, but slowly got more and more disillusioned with it as time went on, till now it has a very small presence in online fandom over there. Most of the active side of the fanbase have either gone elsewhere or have just chosen to ignore it. I think most were disappointed with the whole 'Buffy rebooted' feel to it, and Joss's desire to ignore filling in the gaps between the end of Chosen and now. Because of that some felt it was even more cut off from the original series, which I agree didn't help matters. Especially those who were new to the comic medium who this was a 'brave new world' in more ways then one.

I never, ever thought we'd see Spike or Angel in this thing, and yet I still bought it, and read it. My concerns with it are due to a number of factures which all revolve around character development and plotting.

If people have a problem with the comics then thats upto them surely?

Some people online are just going to have to get used to the idea that not everyones embracing these comics with the same gusto as others and think that season 8 isn't quite as wonderful as some keep pointing out.

Wolfie Gilmore
11-08-08, 11:42 AM
First off I've never seen it called 'season one' myself.

Hmm, I must try and find the link. It's someone's livejournal...she also does reviews of AtF. I don't think she really dislikes season 8 though, so it's not necessarily from a slamming-it perspective... she just thinks it's very different from the show. Or maybe she does dislike it...but anyway, the point being, she wasn't calling it season one of Buffy, but season one of a completely new show. I guess, like a spin off of Buffy?

But there may be people who are calling it season one too, not sure.

sueworld
11-08-08, 11:53 AM
I'm afraid I have to agree with her then. Most of this feels like a very new show to me. Parts of it completely unrecognizable as the series I once loved.

But If others love it, well thats more then fine by me.

At least some form of the Buffyverse is still out there for folks to talk about which must be a good thing.

Slayer+
11-08-08, 05:35 PM
I'm afraid I have to agree with her then. Most of this feels like a very new show to me. Parts of it completely unrecognizable as the series I once loved.

But If others love it, well thats more then fine by me.

At least some form of the Buffyverse is still out there for folks to talk about which must be a good thing.

It is a different show. I was thinking about this earlier at work: Buffy the Comic is more like LOST than the TV show that preceded it. One thing I didn't like about the show was that it stuck to a formula and never deviated from it. Every year we had a Big Bad, an attempted apocalypse, and a few filler episodes. That was all. Now we have a huge story with set in different times, with all sorts of characters. It's daunting for former Buffy fans. I think we should have been eased into this sort of thing. Maybe season eight should have been something else and season nine dealing with Twilight. Because if the end of magic isn't adverted then this will be the last season of Buffy...

sueworld
11-08-08, 06:06 PM
Buffy the Comic is more like LOST than the TV show that preceded it.

Oh blimey, maybe that explains why I don't think much of it then.


Every year we had a Big Bad, an attempted apocalypse, and a few filler episodes.

Oh dear, thats rather a large oversimplification really. Each season had far more going for it plot wise then that. Thats what made it such compelling viewing for me at least.


Now we have a huge story with set in different times, with all sorts of characters.

And there's the problem. So far It's too crowded and too muddled in places in my opinion. Not seemingly helped by Joss's desire to still ignore filing in large sections of back story, character motivation and plot.

Yes, it's all probaly going to lead somewhere (I bloody well hope so after all that!) but for some it's all unwound far too slowly and with too many gaps in logic.

I've stopped buying them, but instead borrow them from a friend now as I'm not that bothered If I read an issue on time anymore, but I hope at the end of all this some original idea will arise that will have made it all worth it, and show those who didn't read it just what they missed.

Weredog
11-08-08, 10:09 PM
Similar to season one? Really? Although I regard season eight as its individual season for numerous reasons, I do see some slight parallels to season four and seven. For instance, the alliance between the government and demons, how the government perceive Slayers, Buffy's struggle leading powerful women, Willow's control of her powers post-Dark, etc. If anything, I would say season eight is what season four and seven knocked for but not out of the park (due to budget costs, strained schedules).

Rowan Hawthorn
12-08-08, 12:56 AM
Some people online are just going to have to get used to the idea that not everyones embracing these comics with the same gusto as others and think that season 8 isn't quite as wonderful as some keep pointing out.

Believe it or not, Sue, we all "get" that. Thing is, some of us who aren't in complete denial also "get" that there's an annoying cluster of posters all over the 'net who went into this with the attitude that it was gonna suck, long before the first issue was ever written, let alone hit the shelves. On usenet, they call'em trolls.

sueworld
12-08-08, 01:28 AM
On usenet, they call'em trolls.

Or just people with opinions different from your own.

Folks on lj at least seemed more then up for this series when it was first announced. :)

Rowan Hawthorn
12-08-08, 02:04 AM
Or just people with opinions different from your own.


Ri-ight. Believe what you want, but there's a big difference between people who post honestly held opinions and those who just try to stir up as much trouble as they can in as many places as they can find to post. I really didn't think it took a rocket scientist to tell the difference, but maybe I was wrong...

sueworld
12-08-08, 02:31 AM
What does it mater what others think or say? you're enjoying it, so great.

The comic seems to be selling well, so what damage is being done by a few folks not liking it and saying so? In all fandoms you very rarely have everyone agreeing with everything or sharing some kind of weird 'hive mind'.

It's not harming sales, you're still buying it, and others folks are still loving it, so end of story I would have thought.

stormwreath
12-08-08, 03:11 AM
Hmm, I must try and find the link. It's someone's livejournal...she also does reviews of AtF.I think it's shapinglight. She's said that to her, Season 8 is more like Season 1 of a new show. It's not saying S8 is like the actual S1 as such, just saying that the characters and background and setting and plot are (in her mind) too different from the TV show to call it a simple continuation.

While I disagree, I've got some sympathy for the viewpoint: you could argue that S8 has as much in common with the TV show as 'Angel' has, for example. They're both spin-offs set in the same universe and using some of the same characters.

Rowan Hawthorn
12-08-08, 04:35 AM
What does it mater what others think or say? you're enjoying it, so great.

The comic seems to be selling well, so what damage is being done by a few folks not liking it and saying so? In all fandoms you very rarely have everyone agreeing with everything or sharing some kind of weird 'hive mind'.

It's not harming sales, you're still buying it, and others folks are still loving it, so end of story I would have thought.

See, I have this funny idea that I have just as much right to express my opinion as anyone else, and if people will post in public forums, especially those people who make a point of going to every forum they can find to whine and cry in every friggin' thread about how bad something sucks (we're on issue 17, and there are people who announced before issue 3 that they were dropping the comic - yet they're still jumping into every thread they can find to trash something they haven't even looked at in over a year,) then their expressed opinions are just as much fair game for discussion as mine are. I understand that lots of people think otherwise, that everyone else can say what they want and I should just keep quiet, but that never did cut much ice with me - and it's cutting less every day...

sueworld
12-08-08, 09:07 AM
Well as you said everyones entitled to air their own opinon, and I don't think I or any other critics of this series of comics have said otherwise have they? Sorry If you got that impression from my post.

I many not be a huge fan of this series but there are plenty of people who are so the 'whinner's' must be in the minority, surely?


yet they're still jumping into every thread they can find to trash something they haven't even looked at in over a year,)

Really? I can't speak for those others but I'm still reading them, even though I just borrow them from a friend now.

You may see it as 'whining and crying' but others may see it as just voicing their opinions. Also may I be so bold as to say that you do seem to be taking what a small portion of fandom says rather too personally. You haven't got shares in the Darkhorse have you? :lol:

Wolfie Gilmore
12-08-08, 11:48 AM
I think it's shapinglight. She's said that to her, Season 8 is more like Season 1 of a new show. It's not saying S8 is like the actual S1 as such, just saying that the characters and background and setting and plot are (in her mind) too different from the TV show to call it a simple continuation.

Ahh, thanks, I was going nuts going through my friends list. But yes, having looked back at her posts (thanks again, lj is a btch to search) she wasn't saying she thought it had gone back to season one, just that it wasn't quite the same Buffy that had been on tv. Ooh, must get an avie from beer foamy (who made hers), they are awesome. :)



While I disagree, I've got some sympathy for the viewpoint: you could argue that S8 has as much in common with the TV show as 'Angel' has, for example. They're both spin-offs set in the same universe and using some of the same characters.

Perhaps you could say that Buffy herself is the author of the spinoff? That is, the differences of season 8 are all contained within Buffy's decisions in season 7. It's not a matter of taking the show and making something completely different out of it, it's just following through the implications of the decisions the characters made.

Though, with added mecha robots ;) Or is a mecha robot a tautology?

sueworld
12-08-08, 11:58 AM
Perhaps you could say that Buffy herself is the author of the spinoff? That is, the differences of season 8 are all contained within Buffy's decisions in season 7. It's not a matter of taking the show and making something completely different out of it, it's just following through the implications of the decisions the characters made.


Yeah, I think you're probaly right there. The trouble only arises though when you get the feeling that the way they ended the show meant it was going to be problematical to carry that plotline forward beyond being just a neat idea on paper.

Leaving the world with thousand of 'baby Slayers' would be a tough act to follow in anyones book.

Moscow Watcher
12-08-08, 12:11 PM
Joss Whedon on "Lessons" DVD commentary:

"I've been saying, anybody who didn't get that this is the last season after this scene was missing the point."

:)
________
Ferrari gt4 (http://www.ferrari-wiki.com/wiki/Ferrari_GT4)

vampmogs
12-08-08, 01:25 PM
Secondly Calling some folks genuine concerns about season 8 'hypercritical' is a bit rich.

I don't believe it is. Like I said, each to their own, but I find some of the comments hypercritical. As for example, people who love Atf criticising that season 8 tries to top itself with a cliff-hanger at the end of every issue. Considering After the Fall follows in exactly the same way, with VampGunn reveal, Spike/Illyria reveal, human Angel reveal ect, yes I'd call that hypercritical. As I would someone criticising season 8 for bringing back to many characters which I've seen, whilst at the same time saying how great 'After the Fall' is even though nearly every major character in the entire series has been brought back, dead or alive (Groo, Kate, Wes, Nina, Gwen, Connor ect) How is it not hypercritical? To me, that shows there’s a desire here to loathe the season no matter what, you can’t praise After the Fall for doing one thing, then criticise season 8 for doing exactly the same thing.


It's the easy way to just blindside other peoples genuine criticisms of this series just by labeling them all 'Spike fans' (ha as if that meant anything) or those who just aren't getting their own way or who don't want to give it a chance.

I don't believe Sosa did anything wrong by pointing out the 'Spike fans.' After all, correct me if I'm wrong but I get the impression they're the circles you tend to associate yourself with on LJ, yes? And you're in these boards telling us about people on LJ yes? So therefore how wrong was Sosa to point out a legitimate observation she has made? I'm not saying anyone who dislikes season 8 is a Spike fan, obviously it's not that defined and obviously like any season it's not going to be everyone's taste, but a lot of them are. I've even seen at least one admit that his absence may be a reason they're so hard on season 8.


I think most were disappointed with the whole 'Buffy rebooted' feel to it, and Joss's desire to ignore filling in the gaps between the end of Chosen and now.

Where up until Issue 17 of a 40 issue story. To make such claims as Joss is choosing to ignore filling in the gaps between season seven and season eight is jumping way too ahead of yourself. No storyteller gives away all the secrets and all the back-story straight away, and never did any televised season of Btvs.

Rowan Hawthorn
12-08-08, 01:28 PM
Well as you said everyones entitled to air their own opinon, and I don't think I or any other critics of this series of comics have said otherwise have they? Sorry If you got that impression from my post.

I many not be a huge fan of this series but there are plenty of people who are so the 'whinner's' must be in the minority, surely?



Really?

Yes, really. Some even make a point of mentioning it on a fairly regular basis. They remind me of posters during Season 7 who (by their own admission) hadn't seen an episode first-hand since the middle of Season 6, but continued to regularly fill the newsgroup with "discussions" about how crappy every new development was. The fact that they were basing this on second- or third-hand information, and that some of the things they were sniveling about didn't even happen on the actual show just got waved off as "excuses" from Whedon's "zombie followers".




I can't speak for those others but I'm still reading them, even though I just borrow them from a friend now.

You may see it as 'whining and crying' but others may see it as just voicing their opinions. Also may I be so bold as to say that you do seem to be taking what a small portion of fandom says rather too personally. You haven't got shares in the Darkhorse have you? :lol:

You wish. I just don't like trolls.

sueworld
12-08-08, 01:34 PM
Where up until Issue 17 of a 40 issue story. To make such claims as Joss is choosing to ignore filling in the gaps between season seven and season eight is jumping way too ahead of yourself. No storyteller gives away all the secrets and all the back-story straight away, and never did any televised season of Btvs.


No, but in the medium of comics where a story moves so slow at the best of time, not revealing certain plot points or back history may mean that some might have a problem in accepting or understanding how A fits in with B.

I still don' really understand why Joss didn't want to tell us how Buffy and co got to where we are today because that would help some of us understand wheres some characters motivations re coming from. Something you would have the luxury of doing in a show.


As for example, people who love Atf criticizing that season 8 tries to top itself with a cliff-hanger at the end of every issue. Considering After the Fall follows in exactly the same way, with VampGunn reveal, Spike/Illyria reveal, human Angel reveal ect, yes I'd call that hypercritical. As I would someone criticising season 8 for bringing back to many characters which I've seen, whilst at the same time saying how great 'After the Fall' is even though nearly every major character in the entire series has been brought back, dead or alive (Groo, Kate, Wes, Nina, Gwen, Connor ect) How is it not hypercritical? To me, that shows there’s a desire here to loathe the season no matter what, you can’t praise After the Fall for doing one thing, then criticise season 8 for doing exactly the same thing.

Ha, reminds me of the people who when discussing AtF won't concentrate on anything apart from whether it's meant to be seen as canon or not. :roll:


I don't believe Sosa did anything wrong by pointing out the 'Spike fans.'

Nah, nothing wrong, it just doesn't have much baring in an argument on places such as here where Spike doesn't appear to be all that popular anyway.

Yes, the 'inner circles' that I mix in lj are mainly Spike fans, but they are in a minority compared to others out there. Also I find it doesn't help that some people I've come across continually use that as a quick way of trying to dispute someones genuine criticisms of this comic, when in reality it's other matters that they have a problem with.

Despite what others have said about me I actually became a fan of the show first, and a Spike fan afterwards. I do think it's pointless trying to compare AtF to season 8 as in a weird way they're tow very different animals. Season 8 for start is comic which by the looks of it is going to go on for a long time to come and has the luxury of spreading it's tale out accordingly. AtF only has a limited run, and so has to be a bit punchier.

vampmogs
12-08-08, 01:57 PM
No, but in the medium of comics where a story moves so slow at the best of time, not revealing certain plot points or back history may mean that some might have a problem in accepting or understanding how A fits in with B.

But again, that's a problem with the medium and not the tale itself. When you have people saying "it's not the medium, it's not the medium!" but then express concerns such as these, it quite obviously is. Joss has never been all that different, we never get all our secrets straight away and then you have some people complaining as early as Issue #4 that we don't know why Dawn's a giant. It it'd been a televised season the secret wouldn't have been revealed in the first episode ever (which one 'arc' is the equivalent of judging on Dark Horses own advertisements for the TPB of No Future For You as being 'one episode') so why'd they expect it in the comics? If they aren’t prepared for the medium or don’t like the medium, why don’t they just say so instead of judging the season for things every other season before it did?


I still don' really understand why Joss didn't want to tell us how Buffy and co got to where we are today because that would help some of us understand wheres some characters motivations re coming from. Something you would have the luxury of doing in a show.

Whilst it seems that Joss is trying to take a different approach to his storytelling, with all the peices of the puzzle coming together to create on big picture, he did state in an interview that he didn't start it from 'Chosen' because after so many years, he felt both he and the fandom wouldn't be in the same place emotionally. He felt it'd have felt odd to come back to the Scoobies with seemingly no time really passed, when it'd been four years for the fans.


Ha, reminds me of the people who when discussing AtF won't concentrate on anything apart from whether it's meant to be seen as canon or not. :roll:

Yeah, that confuses me... How is there possibly an argument to say it isn't?


Nah, nothing wrong, it just doesn't have much baring in an argument on places such as here where Spike doesn't appear to be all that popular anyway.

But the thread is about LJ in specific isn't it? So it makes sense. It's just an observation, I don't think anyone truly believes that every criticism of season 8 stems from the fact that person is a Spike fan and it's due to his absence. But I did get the impression that this may be the case with some people, I've seen at least one member of LJ in their review basically admit as much.


Yes, the 'inner circles' that I mix in lj are mainly Spike fans, but they are in a minority compared to others out there. Also I find it doesn't help that some people I've come across continually use that as a quick way of trying to dispute someones genuine criticisms of this comic, when in reality it's other matters that they have a problem with.

I agree it shouldn't be used to counter any argument anyone makes.


Season 8 for start is comic which by the looks of it is going to go on for a long time to come and has the luxury of spreading it's tale out accordingly. AtF only has a limited run, and so has to be a bit punchier.

Agreed. After the Fall has the luxary of speeding things up because it has very limited time to tell what really is, a huge story. Season 8 on the otherhand is spread out more, giving Joss a chance to scatter the seeds of the story throughout the season and tie it all together as time goes on. In my opinion if you want to read season 8, you have to be prepared to invest a long time in it. It's how it was intended to be written.

No offence to Mr Lynch whatsoever I think he's doing a fantastic job, but in my honest opinion I think that when season eights all done and dusted I'm personally going to be able to get a lot more out of the story in a long run than I am from 'After the Fall.' Mainly because it's a much larger and frankly, much more complicated tale. After the Fall is dealing with all the nitty gritty and human emotions, don't get me wrong I truly believe that, but I think season 8 makes me think more, Atf is more smooth sailing.

sueworld
12-08-08, 02:04 PM
He felt it'd have felt odd to come back to the Scoobies with seemingly no time really passed, when it'd been four years for the fans.


Oh dear, I have to say he's misjudged a section of his audience there somewhat.


But the thread is about LJ in specific isn't it?

I may have read it wrong but I don't think so. I think she just used that as an example and that her points were aimed at people in general. Sosa has an lj so she is indeed on of that group too.

Yeah some don't read it because Spikes not in it, and thats their right of course. I imagine some would have taken that stance if either Xander or Wilow had been excluded to.

vampmogs
12-08-08, 02:21 PM
Oh dear, I have to say he's misjudged a section of his audience there somewhat.

I actually agree with him. Leaving aside how one feels he should handle the back-story aspects (I actually enjoy the slow unravelling which is why it isn't an issue for me) it feels more natural for me for season 8 to take place sometime after season seven. I've always held the series in the same time as my own life because in reality, it always had been. 1999 in the Buffyverse took place in 1999 in the real world. So having the series set a long while after 'Chosen' feels right for me because in reality, it's been years since 'Chosen.'

In saying that, I'd have actually preferred it if season 8 had taken place four years after 'Chosen' to run accordingly with our own timeline instead of a year and a half in the past (same with 'After the Fall') it grates on me a tad. Practically though, I realise that from a story telling POV that'd been just far too much time passed for anything briefly after 'Chosen' to hold any significance whatsoever in the character's lives. You don't look back on something that happened five years ago constantly and deal with the repercussions of that, and dealing with the aftermath of the slayer spell and all that jazz is evidently what Joss wants to happen in season 8 for Buffy and the Scoobs, so despite my grievances I accept a year and a half was about right.


Yeah some don't read it because Spikes not in it, and thats their right of course. I imagine some would have taken that stance if either Xander or Wilow had been excluded to.

I'd personally have no problem if someone didn't read it because Spike's not in it. What irritates me is when they know Spike is not in it, know they're going to hate the series but then read it anyway and pretend they gave it a fair go and judge the season overly harsh in order to mask what's really going on, which is preconceived ideas about the season before it even began.

And hey I could be totally wrong when I get that impression from some people, but Iíd be lying if I said I didnít. Sometimes when I see criticisms of season 8 I donít, I get a vibe the persons reading it with the full intention of enjoying it and then voicing their criticisms when they donít, but other times I just get the vibe off the page that there was never any intention to enjoy it. And thatís when I give up.

sueworld
12-08-08, 02:30 PM
To be honest with you I feel the reason why Joss left such a large gap is beacue he knew he wanted to distance himself from many elements of the original show as much as he possible could. Mainly because I think he just didn't like a lot of what happened with it and partly because he wanted a 'clear space' to reboot this new idea in.

And there lies the problem with some part of his readership, myself include I fear. I would have accepted these changes more If I'd known where they were coming from. Yes you can do the big reveal later, but some groundwork has to be laid to accept some big changes.

I personally feel in neglecting to do that he alienated himself form a certain section of his hard core fan base right from the off which didn't help some folks attitude when reviewing it later on. Many felt lost, some cheated in a weird way.

vampmogs
12-08-08, 02:46 PM
To be honest with you I feel the reason why Joss left such a large gap is beacue he knew he wanted to distance himself from many elements of the original show as much as he possible could. Mainly because I think he just didn't like a lot of what happened with it and partly because he wanted a 'clear space' to reboot this new idea in.

I don't tend to invest a lot of time into why Joss did this or that to be honest. I read his quotes and pretty much accept them at face value, I'm probably never going to know the man on a personal level (ha I wish!) so I'm never really going to get the inside scoop into any of the motivations for his ideas.


And there lies the problem with some part of his readership, myself include I fear. I would have accepted these changes more If I'd known where they were coming from. Yes you can do the big reveal later, but some groundwork has to be laid to accept some big changes.

I personally feel in neglecting to do that he alienated himself form a certain section of his hard core fan base right from the off which didn't help some folks attitude when reviewing it later on. Many felt lost, some cheated in a weird way.

Personally I've just never really understood that particular criticism of season eight, but everyone (quite obviously from the forums) has different opinions and is receptive to different ways of storytelling, characters, themes ect.

As I said above it felt natural for me the way we opened up into season 8. I loved that he jumped straight in with the lines "the thing about changing the world, once you do it the world's all different." I love that he particularly chose to introduce the series in the midst of a mission. It sets the perfect tone for me, we didn't know any of the slayers surrounding Buffy, we didn't know what that symbol meant, or even the intentions of their mission in the first place, but life goes on, and for me seeing as how in the real world life did go on it felt "natural" that so did it, for Buffy.

I do get a sense that people find it hard to understand how to get a hold of Buffy's character as slowly throughout the season it became more apparent she's changed (reconsidering killing humans, back robbery ect). But I never felt that specific back-story was needed for that. I don't actually expect to get a whole arc or a standalone dealing specifically with "here's Buffy, this is how she got there" which I think is what some people are hoping for.

I can put the pieces together myself, from the story I get the impression that as she's been cut off from the world and leading the slayers with all this new power she's been forced to change and in doing so has become different. That intrigues me and I look back on her past ("want.take.have") as a back-story as to how it makes sense (I feel) that she could get to that place. And I like shifting and moulding that into something new every time we get a new piece of information of her character to fit accordingly with what I’m seeing, I don’t mind reassessing my previous arguments, that’s actually what’s working for me and keeps me interested.

I expect Joss will unravel information as to how she did, but not in the direct straight forward sense I think some people are hoping for. And I guess therein lies the divide with the fandom as to who likes that and who doesn’t. Neither opinion is wrong, but Joss can’t please everybody. I guess I'm lucky in the sense of either method of storytelling works for me, it doesn't grate on me either way. I'm fortunate in that way, others aren't. Enisy is right in saying season 8 and season six are similair in that repsect. There's very few people in the middle with most either loving it or hating it.

stormwreath
12-08-08, 03:02 PM
I personally feel in neglecting to do that he alienated himself form a certain section of his hard core fan base right from the off which didn't help some folks attitude when reviewing it later on. Many felt lost, some cheated in a weird way.You're right; that's exactly the complaint I've seen a lot of people make. But on the other hand, if he had started immediately after 'Chosen' and followed the character development step by step, I think you'd have had an even larger section of the fanbase saying "Yawn. Same old, same old. Joss is just reliving his glory days; why can't he come up with something new?"

Fans have speculated and written fanfic so much on what happened immediately after 'Chosen' that for Joss to give us his version would seem tired and unoriginal - not to mention inviting lots of comparisons between his work and other people's fanworks, not necessarily to his benefit. By moving ahead several years, he has the opportunity for a fresh start and to tell us a new story. And personally, that's what I want to read.

I would agree that Joss tends to give his readers too much credit sometimes for being able to understand what's going on and follow the connections. (See Satsu, lipgloss.) Maybe he needs a beta reader who isn't a certified genius, to read his stories and check they make sense from the perspective of a normal, average-intelligence person. ;)


Compare After the Fall, though: when it first came out, a lot of people praised it for the careful way it built up the story. Explaining everything, filling in all the back-history... all the things S8 is criticised for not doing. But as time goes by, I'm seeing more of those same people starting to say that actually, AtF is a bit dull. not much happens. Everything is explained in too much detail...

I'm not slagging off AtF myself; I enjoy reading it. But I will say that when I finish each issue, I put it down and move on. When I finish each issue of Season 8, I'm thinking about it, and wondering what the deeper meanings are, and trying to work out the message and the long-term story arc. S8 is just more intellectually inspiring.

stormwreath
12-08-08, 03:09 PM
Ahh, thanks, I was going nuts going through my friends list. But yes, having looked back at her posts (thanks again, lj is a btch to search) she wasn't saying she thought it had gone back to season one, just that it wasn't quite the same Buffy that had been on tv. Ooh, must get an avie from beer foamy (who made hers), they are awesome. :)I'm proud to say that beer_good_foamy sometimes uses icons I made myself. :) But he does have a great sense of humour when it comes to icon design. By the way, do you have an LJ, then? Do I know you under a different name there?


Though, with added mecha robots ;) Or is a mecha robot a tautology?Doesn't a mecha normally have a human pilot, whereas a robot is a self-motivated artificial intelligence?

sueworld
12-08-08, 04:02 PM
Fans have speculated and written fanfic so much on what happened immediately after 'Chosen' that for Joss to give us his version would seem tired and unoriginal - not to mention inviting lots of comparisons between his work and other people's fanworks, not necessarily to his benefit.


Ah, but thats just a fan writers take on it, not the 'real deals'.

You can't compare the two really. Fans wouldn't have bothered worried about any of the above, they would have just wanted some closure on a few issues. Although considering how Xander apparently managed to mourn Anya by going off to Dracula for a year, then maybe leaving them them vague might have been a good idea after all. :roll:

Wolfie Gilmore
12-08-08, 04:13 PM
I'm proud to say that beer_good_foamy sometimes uses icons I made myself. :) But he does have a great sense of humour when it comes to icon design. By the way, do you have an LJ, then? Do I know you under a different name there?

Yup. I forget I'm not the same name there so assume people will know me, doh....you might find me commenting on your journal under the cunning disguise of...Joe Sweden (geddit? Groaning? Good).



Doesn't a mecha normally have a human pilot, whereas a robot is a self-motivated artificial intelligence?

I have no clue. But now I feel I must research it. :)


I'm not slagging off AtF myself; I enjoy reading it. But I will say that when I finish each issue, I put it down and move on. When I finish each issue of Season 8, I'm thinking about it, and wondering what the deeper meanings are, and trying to work out the message and the long-term story arc. S8 is just more intellectually inspiring.

Totally agree re intellectually inspiring. It has its problems, like any story arc, but my faith in it's been growing (I wasn't a fan of the opening issues, I felt that the storytelling hadn't found its pace) and it takes me to more interesting places than AtF. AtF works for me as an action romp, while season 8 is more of a sprawling game of...who knows what until the last move's played?

Nina
12-08-08, 04:24 PM
I think that comparing Angel:ATF and season 8 doesn't really work. The first has to fix a big mess in 16 issues and the other tells a whole story in 40 issues. This makes a big difference ... ATF has no place for a good and difficult story so they focus more on the characters and their emotions. While season 8 has enough time to create a story and they don't have to 'clean up the mess', because that is done in the years we didn't see.

It's just what you prefer and which characters you like more I guess.

watcher1006
12-08-08, 04:30 PM
You just don't have the same storytelling in a comic that you do in a series. There are things you can do in a comic that you can't do in a TV show, and vice versa.

Comics don't have "seasons" anyway - I suppose they have issues, they have volumes, whatever. And this Buffy comic is certainly not the beginning of the Buffyverse - the circle of characters and the basic premise of the comic was set up by the show. But the big shift in the storytelling medium has caused a large measure of discontinuity. Clearly some fans accept the Buffyverse continuing in the comic form and some don't.

I have fun reading the comics, but I enjoy them more if I don't think of them too strictly as a continuation of the show. I wouldn't call them "Season 1" but I only "sort of" think of them as "Season 8". I'm actually glad that there's only been a limited effort so far to connect them to the storylines of the series because it allows me to read them in a more detached way. If they meticulously tried to tie up all the loose ends I think I'd be more troubled by their use of the storylines from the series, given the freedom they have to change things As it was, I wasn't very happy about how they brought Warren back and twisted around the Warren-Willow story from where it had been left after "The Killer In Me". I thought Faith was well captured in the comics but hey, where what happened to the reconciliation we saw between her and Buffy at the end of Season 7? I like it better seeing them break new ground.

I will always think of James Marsters as one of the best acting talents in the Buffyverse but I still think that Spike was overused toward the end of the show. I loved his character up through the early part of Season 6, was more doubtful about him thereafter. I agree with those who think that his absence from "Season 8" is a big discontinuity with the series, but that fact doesn't bother me. After all at the end of the show he wasn't with the group standing with Buffy at the edge of the crater. Plus I'm just assuming he'll be brought back at some point.

That brings up another point, which is that I think the comics have yet to create characters of lasting interest outside those of the show. The characters playing the important roles are largely those the audience knows from the series - Buffy, Faith, Willow, Xander, etc. Who is Satsu? Renee started to become interesting, we started to get to know her but then she exited the scene. Same goes for Lady G. in "No Future For You". The characters that we know were, yes, conceived by Joss Whedon and his creative team for the show but were also created by the actors who play them. I think that Willow, Spike, and Andrew are prominent examples of characters who went where they did because of the particular idiosyncrasies and talents of the actors who played them. That can't happen in comics - there it can only be done by writing and illustration.