"The Dark Knight" SPOILERSPOILERSPOILER Discussion Thread [Archive]

KingofCretins

19-07-08, 05:28 AM

I figured I would start this up because people that have seen one of the best movies of all time may need to talk about it before they crawl up the walls :)

I can not believe how flawlessly written and directed this one. Bale and Ledger were perfect, but I don't want praise for their performance to lose sight of the fact that Nolan "gets" Batman more than any filmmaker ever has or ever could.

I was totally surprised that Harvey was Two-Face in this movie, but it was fantastically done. Heath Ledger was awesome... but it can't be overstated how great Aaron Eckhart and Gary Oldman were in this movie.

Setting up Batman as a wanted man is an amazing surprise but does actually fit a long section of the Batman mythology. And how all the set-up was done for it thematically without being obvious until it was happening... wow. I got goosebumps when Gordon explained to his son "... because we have to chase him".

The use of the Prisoner's Dilemma in this movie just... wow. And I loved that the film was (because the Batman story is) willing to make the optimistic declaration. Men do not need to fail, they can choose the good.

Was anyone else amazed that the movie just... kept starting over? You get HUGE build-up to a big set piece, and then... there's just more. The kidnapping attempt... then the jail... then the ferries... then the hospital. It's like they put the entire LOTR trilogy into one movie :)

†DarkWillow†

20-07-08, 03:04 AM

OHMYGOSH. It was amazing. It was everything I thought it would be and more. I just came back from seeing it, and all I could say after it was "Heath was incredible!". I think that his last role as the Joker was definitely one of his best.

I don't normally cry at superhero movies (except "Spider-Man 3"), but when Gary Oldman's character said "It will be alright, son" to his little boy, I broke down xD.

I agree. I wasn't expecting for Harvey to become Two-Face either, or for Rachel to die. But I think that they were both good choices and that they did very good things for the plot.

My favorite parts were all the Joker/Batman scenes, especially the one in the interragation room. That was very well-written.

I noticed that too, the movie was very split apart. There wasn't just one Big Bad character, leading up to a huge fight at the end. There were many different fight scenes and different villains throughout. The film was very long as well (2 & 1/2 hours).

Thomas

20-07-08, 10:10 AM

BEST SUPERHERO MOVIE EVER!

I love how they not only dwell into Batman's story, but also Bruce's. A lot of superhero movies treat the hero and their secret identity as one person, but they do a great job at separating the two. A great example would be Commissioner Gorden's reaction to Bruce Wayne. He barely knew Bruce, but he and Batman have this close relationship.

Also, I love all of the different dynamics. They've really done a great job at that. In the original Batman movies, they didn't dwell into relationships. So, it's good to see that the supporting cast is as important as the main character. They all pretty much got tons of focus, considering all the stuff that was going on!

I loved Rachel's death scene. I really thought she was a very interesting character over these two films. I was sad to see her go, but I think it was needed.

Heath Ledger really did a fantastic job, the Joker was psychotic, but funny, in a dark twisted way. He did these horrible things, but I still kind of liked him. The disappearing pencil trick was brutal! I can't help but think how true the Joker was when he said, "You see who a person really is during their last moments alive." He really did a phenomenal job. He played the role so well, and it really goes with the quote, because he showed everyone that he's an amazing actor, but unfortunately it was his last role. We got to see who he really was as an actor. It's kind of funny though, I remember reading how people didn't think he could pull it off when he was first cast. A lot of people thought they picked the wrong guy for the part, but it turned out better than anyone could've of imagined.

I was a bit shocked to find out about Two Face being a villain. I knew he was coming, but I figured it'd be at the very end of it, setting up for the next movie, but nope. They introduced him and killed him just as fast, which doesn't bother me as much, since they can introduce a new villain in the next movie. I loved how they handled having multiple villains. Usually, it's distracting in movies, they ether focus on one more than the other, but by introducing Harvey Dent as a major character, they really got to explore the character really well.

As for the next film, it's never too early to speculate, I think they'll be introducing Selina Kyle aka Catwoman, I think Lucius' quote about the new suit being able to deal with dogs- or cats, was total foreshadowing. Plus, with Rachel dead, they'll probably want to introduce a new female character. Catwoman would be perfect since she's pretty much an anti-hero. So, she can pose just a tiny threat, without overshadowing any other villains. Though, I wouldn't want it to become "Batman and Catwoman," with them constantly teaming up...

Vicki Vale is probably the better option for a new female lead. A non-corrupt reporter? She'd fit perfectly. She'd no doubt become a target, since she'd be sticking her nose into places they probably don't belong.

As for a villain, I'm thinking the Penguin and/or the Riddler...

EndersWrath

20-07-08, 11:57 AM

BEST SUPERHERO MOVIE EVER!

I'll go as far to say one of the best movies ever. Flawless. Definitely in my top 3.

AHH! I'm still writing up my review because I'm a huge nerd like that, but I love to speculate...

As for the next film, it's never too early to speculate, I think they'll be introducing Selina Kyle aka Catwoman, I think Lucius' quote about the new suit being able to deal with dogs- or cats, was total foreshadowing. Plus, with Rachel dead, they'll probably want to introduce a new female character. Catwoman would be perfect since she's pretty much an anti-hero. So, she can pose just a tiny threat, without overshadowing any other villains. Though, I wouldn't want it to become "Batman and Catwoman," with them constantly teaming up...

Vicki Vale is probably the better option for a new female lead. A non-corrupt reporter? She'd fit perfectly. She'd no doubt become a target, since she'd be sticking her nose into places they probably don't belong.

As for a villain, I'm thinking the Penguin and/or the Riddler...

I've been speculating on how they could use Harley in the next movie... because I love her ...and I'm not gonna lie, one of the BIGGEST reasons I got upset at Heath Ledgers death was that we were more than likely never gonna see Harley on the big screen. But onto my theory. They could have it to where we see Harley doing the Jokers work from him while he is in Arkham Asylum. That is where he "corrupted" her and it would all work out pretty well, its just that as a friend pointed out, it wouldn't be "viewer friendly", because people wouldn't get it.

Onto more possible theories...

I don't think that they will go with Catwoman, just because of the flop that was associated with Halle Barry. I'm hoping for Clayface because I would LOVE to see what they would do with him. Though if they went with The Riddler, I hope that they steer clear with what they did with that god awful movie Batman Forever. They made the Riddler insane in that movie, which he really wasn't. The Riddler is a craftsman, intricate and just smart. I would LOVE to see Edward Norton play him in all honesty because I believe that Norton would be able to pull it off. Plus Edward Nigma... Edward Norton *giggle*.

I dunno if I would wanna see The Penguin, I mean he just doesn't seem like he would do too great in a follow up to TDK.

Killer Croc would be pretty awesome though. Also an appropriate version of Mr. Freeze would be great as well. OR The Mad Hatter. That would be great, maybe even team him up with The Riddler, have like a battle of the minds.

KingofCretins

20-07-08, 04:49 PM

With the dark and serious tone of these movies (which has always been the right tone), I'm hoping that they eventually revisit Bane and do him justice. "Batman & Robin" made a joke of the character, and it pissed me off. Bane was the only Batman villain to fundamentally *beat* him, and claim the city as his own, so I would love to see that character try to do it on the big screen.

Heather

20-07-08, 04:58 PM

Ok, I'm just going to say: BEST. MOVIE. EVER. Without a doubt my favorite superhero movie and most like my favorite movie I've ever seen. I'm seeing it for a second time today. :p

Now, onto third movie speculation:

Chris Nolan (director and writer of "Begins" and "Dark Knight") has said in an interview (I can't find the link but I know for a fact that I read it) that he wants the Riddler in the third movie. When he said that, every "Lost" fan across the globe start screaming "MICHAEL EMERSON = THE RIDDLER!" I agree with that idea 100%. He's smart, he's creepy BEYOND belief, and he looks the part.

Nolan also said that he wants Catwoman in the next film. He suggested Kate Beckinsale could play her. If they get Beckinsale in the next film, I will be bouncing off the walls. I'm not even joking. As Thomas said, with Rachel dead, they need a new female lead - not to mention love interest. Selina Kyle would bring a new dynamic to the films by being a love interest for both Bruce and Batman.

Now, I, personally, would KILL to see the Huntress in the third movie. I know that, according to the comics, she's introduced way down the line but I don't care. It just works. They've already established the mobs in Gotham City so they could easily say that the Bertinelli Family Massacre happened awhile back and that they were the most historic Gotham Mob-Family to date. Helena Bertinelli then enters the scene as a masked vigilante with a striking resemblance to Batman. The criminals at first think that she's Batman himself - that he's returned - and then they start calling her the Batgirl. As time progresses, the press gives her the title of "The Huntress" - and criminals are her prey.

Batman eventually returns to Gotham to find this new vigilante in town. He made it clear in TDK that he doesn't like copy-cats so he'd instantly be hostile to Helena from the get-go. They'd have a sort of rivalry going on but, eventually, she'd screw up and he'd have to clean up her mess. He doesn't approve of her willingness to kill - something that was also established in TDK. He rips her head off because of it and, eventually, that creates the fissure between the two characters that is seen in the comics. The Huntress idolizes Batman but Batman hates her methods.

Helena Bertinelli, herself, could play into the movie as someone involved with the government's desire to take down the criminal organizations in Gotham. Since her family was quite possibly the most important and major crime family in Gotham history, she'd likely know some things about how the mob works or who's involved or how to outsmart the mob.

So, at the end of the day, the movie will have established a sidekick-of-sorts in their mythology AND the "Batgirl" mantle will also have been incorporated. Plus, they'd advance the murder-of-criminals-is-BAD plot and it'd also fill in the void left by Batman fleeing the city at the end of TDK.

...I've put WAYY too much thought into this...

:p :lol:

Oh, as far as the Penguin is concerned, someone posted a link to a website that suggested that he be incorporated into the films as a short, rich, brilliant playboy of sorts who has ties with the criminal underworld of Gotham. Batman can go to him for information - something he's done in the comics before. If he is a rich man, he could also be involved with Bruce Wayne. Though, he wouldn't be called "The Penguin." He'd go by his real name and he'd be mocked behind his back as "The Penguin." Which could make him mad when he hears that and then he goes and kills whoever says it. Thus making him a villain as well. :p The issue becomes, however, who would play him?

KingofCretins

20-07-08, 05:17 PM

Hey, question, especially for you Heather, since you seem very Batman-literate.

That machine -- wasn't that sort of setup for Barbara Gordon (who, granted, doesn't exist as an adult in these movies) as Oracle?

sueworld

20-07-08, 06:06 PM

Oh lord, I can't wait to see this one! I can't believe that those in the UK have to wait another week till it starts screening.

I've always adored the Jokers character, and my favorite ever graphic novel was 'the Killing Joke' so this movie is a must for me, especially as the franchise ended on such an appalling way with the last few films.

Saying that a friend of mine is going to the crew screening (a bit late don't you think?! *g*) and I look forward to what he/they think of it afterwards.

Vampmaster

20-07-08, 06:56 PM

I haven't really read much of batman or watched many of his movies, but I really want to see this one.

I do have a question though.... what Batman movies are a MUST see before even thinking about watching this one?

KingofCretins

20-07-08, 09:20 PM

"Batman Begins" is highly recommended to see first, but not strictly necessary.

All the other "Batman" movies are completely unrelated, and for the most part, can be skipped.

Vampmaster

20-07-08, 09:26 PM

Thank you KOC!

I'll definately make sure to watch Batman begins in that case and probably the others also! I just wanted to check what should definately be watched before going to see it with friends. :)

Again thank you!

Heather

20-07-08, 10:28 PM

Vampmaster, like KingofCretins said, only "Batman Begins" is important. Every movie before "BB" is irrelevant to "The Dark Knight." You should really see "BB" before you see "TDK" to be introduced to the characters and plotlines and whatnot, in my opinion. It'll really help you follow the second movie a lot easier. ;)

Hey, question, especially for you Heather, since you seem very Batman-literate.

That machine -- wasn't that sort of setup for Barbara Gordon (who, granted, doesn't exist as an adult in these movies) as Oracle?

I guess it could be. I'm not the most Batman-literate person out there - and I'm probably not the most Batman-literate person on this forum - but from what I understand, Barbara/Oracle acts via communication links (ear-pieces, mics, etc...) and sometimes cameras (small ones in other people's suits/uniforms). I, personally, haven't stumbled across a situation where Barbara has used sonar equipment in the same way as "TDK" did but it'd certainly be interesting if it was foreshadowing Oracle and the Watchtower. ;)

NOTE ABOUT MY HUNTRESS THEORY: I just saw the movie for a second time today and, upon the second viewing, I was more enthralled by the emotional stuff. The first time was fantastic because of the stuff on the surface but the second time allowed me to really feel the pain of Harvey Dent and Gordon and I almost cried when Rachel died.

But I've also been corrected by the second viewing. Batman doesn't leave the city, he's just on the run from the police. At first, I thought that he said he was going to leave Gotham and then Gordon said that they have to hunt him down - basically to bring him back. But now I understand it as Batman will always protect the city but the police will hunt him for the crimes of Harvey "Two Face" Dent (who I STRONGLY believe isn't dead).

So, Huntress could step in simply as a more...respectable vigilante. The people of Gotham will have turned against Batman completely so if a new hero comes into the picture, they'd likely turn and embrace them like they did Batman at first.

helloagain

21-07-08, 01:15 AM

I loved this movie. It's so much better than any of the other super hero movies out there. It wasn't cheesy like the Spiderman movies eventually got but it did have just enough humor in it. Part of me wonders if I think Heath did such a great job just because it was his last role but I really think I would feel the same if he were still alive. I'm going to see it again for the second time tonight. The only thing that I think would have made it better was to see Katie Holmes be blown up and not Maggie.

Koos

24-07-08, 10:41 PM

Well, I saw the Dutch premier last night and I'm still in awe with it. I thought Batman Begins was awesomely good, and that it would be hard to beat. But this movie was screaming from the screen. It was spectacular, intense and it had the perfect tone. I never really liked the batman movies from before. I barely have read any of the comics, so I'm not into the batman franchise. That's means that most of it was knew to me. Except for the joker, but this time the joker was nuts. He really made the movie as an plotdriving factor and getting the best out of Batman.

I'm gonna watch this movie over and over again.

Flak

25-07-08, 03:52 AM

Great movie! Definitely a solid film. But of course, being as versed in film grammar as I lead myself to believe, some fat can of course be trimmed. The sequence leading to the 'Batmobile' getting junked is one part that stands out to me in need of some serious trimming. It was just too slo-mo and kinda felt like the movie was hobbling for a minute during that sequence. This is not to say of course that Mr. Nolan did a bad job of bringing Batman to the big screen, but some parts could have been trimmed if only slightly to reign it down to a more comfortable two hour running length.

I didn't really like the vigilante sequence at the beginning. I don't know if they meant to show the Scarecrow as washed up, but I will always remember him as being one of the best of the rogues gallery (how could he not be? He preys on fear!) so to see him getting a stern talking-to from the Bat was a bit of a letdown.

I did like that they blew up Rachel. I found her to be a little too idealistic to not be running around with a cape all day, and just found her character obnoxious. Maggie didn't really do much for me playing Rachel either, and the note was just melodrama of the yuck variety. But no wonder she's Bruce's foil, she's even more narrowly focused than he is. Yes, my idealists MUST wear a cape or something to indicate they are trying to be a superhero, otherwise I find them obnoxious. Even with a cape though (I'm glaring at you Superman) I don't like them all.

I did really enjoy the Joker though. Heath Ledger surprised me. Given his resume I wasn't sure he could pull it off, but he did awesome. I loved the magic trick. Truly a villain for the ages.

Kold

28-07-08, 03:26 PM

Best movie of all time? Are you joking, imdb.com?
I thought it was highly enjoyable, great action, amazing Ledger (honestly better than anything else he's ever done), but... the superhero genre is quite limited. And while being the best superhero movie ever is great (as I'd say it probably is), it's not the best movie of all time.

I just wish it didn't SMACK YOU IN THE FACE with theme. Michael Caine bloodied my lip up, Heath Ledger proceeded to give me a black eye and then Gary Oldman knocked half my teeth out with thematic face-smacking. For God's sake whatever happened to subtlety?

And it was too long. That's a bit unfair because it was all pretty exciting, but it was not as tightly-wound as it should have been.

But I liked the cast. I already mentioned Heath, and I liked Oldman, Gyllenhaal, Eckhart, Caine, Bale with what he had. Not so much Morgan Freeman because I've grown tired of him in films and he wasn't doing much in the film.

Pretty sexist though haha. I laughed quite a lot at the fact that halfway through the writers
killed the only lead female
and to make up for the void had to put Heath Ledger in a skirt. :)

A good movie, 3.5 or 4 stars out of 5, but I just don't see what the hype is about. I just don't think the superhero genre has ever been that good.

Wolfie Gilmore

28-07-08, 04:14 PM

Really enjoyed it. So much better than Batman Begins. The only real drawback for me was the Batman voice. Because he was having full on conversations in it, its silliness was really distracting. But loved his relationship with Gordon, and his contrasts with Dent (even if not of the subtle, but that's the point I think...because they were both purposefully creating themselves as symbols, and the general public doesn't like its symbols all subtle after all). Knowing the comics (though, been so long since I've read any), I knew where Dent was headed, but that didn't detract from it at all. Rather, there was a sense of tragic inevitability.

For the next film, I would love a Superman crossover. Not very likely perhaps, but I think I enjoy both Superman and Batman the most when they appear together. The contrasts between them are fascinating.

holypotatoes

28-07-08, 04:36 PM

and to make up for the void had to put Heath Ledger in a skirt. :)

Nurse!Joker was the best part. I was laughing pretty damn hard as he was walking on the street outside the hospital. The socks he had on made it even funnier. :roll:

Really enjoyed it. So much better than Batman Begins. The only real drawback for me was the Batman voice.
Ugh, the voice. Not good. I kept getting annoyed with it as well. The same with the Joker doing the licking of the lips thing. *cringe* Sooooooo disgusting! I can't stand hearing that.

But yeah, I think this movie was overly hyped. Yes it was great for a comic book movie (since there hasn't been very many good ones) but best movie ever, no. It was enjoyable but I got irritated with all the fo-endings. I mean jesus, the thing had like 5 separate endings. It felt like they took all the alternative ones and then just mashed them all together. IDK, it was a good movie but not this phenominal piece of work that everyone's making it out to be. :o

EndersWrath

28-07-08, 09:05 PM

So because this is a superhero movie, that means that it can't be one of the best movies of all time? That's cool I guess. I mean way to not be bias with it?

I love that really the only thing critics or anyone for that matter complain about in the movie is the length. Though at the same time, if they were to have shortened it, they would complain that it was too rushed and short. People just don't feel good about reviewing a movie unless they can find something to complain about. It's not like it lagged and made people bored, it kept up with the action and entertainment.

The voice thing does kinda crack me up, but he has to disguise his voice and well, that's what we get, so I appreciate that they made itat least realistic to that point. I mean he can't just take off some glasses, add a curl, and put on some spandex... Gotham isn't as stupid as some other cities...

Faux endings? Not really. I mean there were lead intos to other storylines and plots, but I wouldn't call them faux endings.

I honestly wouldn't expect people to all think it was the best film ever, one of the best films yes, but when poeple already have a prejudice or just stretch at things to justify not liking it, it gets kinda annoying. I would be fine with a simple 'it didn't do it for me' to be perfectly honest, at least then it would be truthful.

/rant

holypotatoes

28-07-08, 11:16 PM

*clears throat* Since this one seems to be strictly directed to the post I just made. :D
So because this is a superhero movie, that means that it can't be one of the best movies of all time? That's cool I guess. I mean way to not be bias with it?
No that's not it at all. It doesn't matter if it's a superhero movie or not but god know's there have been way better movies made so I don't think people can just say, "it's the best movie of all time" when clearly it's not. There's no bias in it at all. It's probably one of the best superhero movies of all time but it surely isn't the best movie of all time.

I love that really the only thing critics or anyone for that matter complain about in the movie is the length. Though at the same time, if they were to have shortened it, they would complain that it was too rushed and short. People just don't feel good about reviewing a movie unless they can find something to complain about. It's not like it lagged and made people bored, it kept up with the action and entertainment.
No I'm pretty sure we could find other complaints. As for laggin, the beginning hour or so I got a little bored with. :p

Faux endings? Not really. I mean there were lead intos to other storylines and plots, but I wouldn't call them faux endings.
They could have easily ended it at anyone of those points and the movie would have been the same but they kept adding things that didn't need to be added.

I honestly wouldn't expect people to all think it was the best film ever, one of the best films yes, but when poeple already have a prejudice or just stretch at things to justify not liking it, it gets kinda annoying. I would be fine with a simple 'it didn't do it for me' to be perfectly honest, at least then it would be truthful.

/rant
Who's stretching?! Just because two people in this thread decided they didn't love it like everyone else and give reason's why they think so doesn't mean we're stretching to find something wrong with the "greatest movie of all time." :rolling: Besides, none of us said this movie was terrible. That would be one of those times where you would say, it didn't do it for me but all of us here have agreed that it's a good movie. We all have a right to our own opinions so stop getting so frustrated with other's not having the same opinion about this being the greatest movie of all time.

EndersWrath

29-07-08, 03:31 AM

*clears throat* Since this one seems to be strictly directed to the post I just made. :D

No that's not it at all. It doesn't matter if it's a superhero movie or not but god know's there have been way better movies made so I don't think people can just say, "it's the best movie of all time" when clearly it's not. There's no bias in it at all. It's probably one of the best superhero movies of all time but it surely isn't the best movie of all time.

No I'm pretty sure we could find other complaints. As for laggin, the beginning hour or so I got a little bored with. :p

They could have easily ended it at anyone of those points and the movie would have been the same but they kept adding things that didn't need to be added.

Who's stretching?! Just because two people in this thread decided they didn't love it like everyone else and give reason's why they think so doesn't mean we're stretching to find something wrong with the "greatest movie of all time." :rolling: Besides, none of us said this movie was terrible. That would be one of those times where you would say, it didn't do it for me but all of us here have agreed that it's a good movie. We all have a right to our own opinions so stop getting so frustrated with other's not having the same opinion about this being the greatest movie of all time.

My post wasn't directed at you. I would have quoted you if it were, that way you would know instead of having to assume... like I'm doing now. 1.5 points were, but not the post. The superhero thing was directed at you and Kold, and the faux endings was directed at you.

The rest was just a general statement. I guess if you wanted you can think that it was directed at you, but it wasn't.... *shrugs*

If they ended it at any one of those points then it just would have been missing. There was a lot of story to tell and if they ended it sooner, it would have just felt half assed. But I guess that's cool, at least it wouldn't have been almost 3 hours long :D

You are completely right, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I 100% agree with that. I even said that I don't expect people to think this was the greatest movie of all time, I believe it was at the begining of my last paragraph. I was getting frustrated, you're right, I just don't see why it being a superhero movie has anything to do with whether or not it is one of the best films ever. I just think its kinda prejudice to hold that against it. Amazing acting, stunning visual effects, a constant spinning plot that did flow very well, but oops its a Superhero movie, lets knock off some points right there. It just doesn't seem right to me is all. I effing loved this movie completely, but I wouldn't say it is the best movie of all time even though it does make top 3 for me at least.

I am not saying that you should think that it was the BEST MOVIE OF ALL TIME. I did not say that and would never think that, because that would just be stupid, but it is kinda really freaking rude to mock those that do feel it was the greatest movie of all time.

Kold

29-07-08, 11:21 AM

I guess I'm a little amused by the fact that I just gave a movie 4 stars out of 5 and am getting ranted at for "not liking" a movie.

oops its a Superhero movie, lets knock off some points right there
I hardly said that. But I find, in its cinematic outings at least, that the superhero genre is highly limited in what it can do as a film and how it can differentiate itself from other films in the genre. Where superhero films fall is not because they have superheroes, and villains, and action sequences, but because of their unsubtlety of thematic points, and their tendency to state rather than explore. I feel that the three best superhero movies I have seen - and the least "offensive" in this regard - are The Dark Knight, X-Men 2 and Batman Begins.

I am not saying that you should think that it was the BEST MOVIE OF ALL TIME. I did not say that and would never think that, because that would just be stupid
I know you didn't say that. I was commenting on the tendency of imdb.com voters to inflate a film early in its release due to a number of factors not completely to do with the film's quality. Currently The Dark Knight sits at the very top of imdb.com's Top 250 Movies of All Time list, which is a rather shady achievement for a film released a week or so ago.

I love that really the only thing critics or anyone for that matter complain about in the movie is the length. Though at the same time, if they were to have shortened it, they would complain that it was too rushed and short. People just don't feel good about reviewing a movie unless they can find something to complain about. It's not like it lagged and made people bored, it kept up with the action and entertainment.
No need to get into the counter-factuals... you can't say what I would have thought had the movie been shorter. I think things could have been trimmed, such as the China sequence, the scene with Scarecrow, much of Lucius Fox's appearance, that dinner scene with the hilarious Russian accent and misapplied references to Julius Caesar, and the only scene that actually made me cringe, the press conference scene... sometimes having the crowd shout things out can work, here it didn't.

I would be fine with a simple 'it didn't do it for me' to be perfectly honest, at least then it would be truthful.
So it's not okay to explain why it didn't quite do it for me? This isn't "The Dark Knight Adoration Thread", it's the Discussion thread.

The same with the Joker doing the licking of the lips thing. *cringe* Sooooooo disgusting! I can't stand hearing that.
Man I loved that! It was a facet of such good preparation on Heath's part. Really draws out the character, and just that little bit of synecdoche adds meaning to how the Joker goes about the world. Faultless performance really - the terrorist video scene, in which he's got the fake Batman, is a particular standout.

Wolfie Gilmore

29-07-08, 11:55 AM

Let's solve this argument, shall we? Best movie of all time is CLEARLY Mean Girls. Godfather Part II? Meh. Laurence of Arabia? So so. It's all about mean Girls. Batman certainly doesn't stand a hope in hell against Lindsay Lohan's seminal work. :)

That said, I think The Dark Knight was an excellent movie, that managed to capture the atmosphere of the comics (well, the Dark Knight Returns-present day ones) and construct some fascinating larger than life moral dillemmas and symbolism.

Kold

29-07-08, 12:41 PM

Let's solve this argument, shall we? Best movie of all time is CLEARLY Mean Girls.
And we could see that The Dark Knight attempted to draw parallels to Mean Girls by depicting Rachel and Harvey's debate of Julius Caesar, so similar to Gretchen Wiener's controversial report on Caesar. :)

That said, I think The Dark Knight was an excellent movie, that managed to capture the atmosphere of the comics (well, the Dark Knight Returns-present day ones) and construct some fascinating larger than life moral dillemmas and symbolism.
You're right -- and it's very interesting to consider the tone of Gotham as a "crime city" -- and why people would continue to live there. What we got was a power struggle between the three main characters as to who, in the absence of a strong leader (the Mayor), represents the city as an entity. The Joker was such a good mirror for Batman, because vigilantism can only promote anarchism.

What I'd like to see in the next film is a more personal look -- there wasn't as much character development in this film for Bruce because he didn't need it, but we could easily go back to him now for the third film. The Joker as a villain is very much a foil or image for Batman, so I'd like to see a villain that targets Bruce -- not so familiar on the villains outside of the films so all I can suggest is The Riddler. :) I think Nolan would have an interesting take on Catwoman but that could fail miserably. And I don't think the cat joke is a reference to Catwoman... I think that's drawing at straws slightly. I think it was intended just as a joke.

If I recall correctly, Christopher Nolan has stated that he finds The Penguin too camp and would never utilise him. So even with a revision of the character, I don't think he'll be appearing.

I didn't really like the vigilante sequence at the beginning. I don't know if they meant to show the Scarecrow as washed up, but I will always remember him as being one of the best of the rogues gallery (how could he not be? He preys on fear!) so to see him getting a stern talking-to from the Bat was a bit of a letdown.
I agree with you. I thought this scene could have been redone to show the fake Batmen without using Scarecrow and without using so much time. Having Scarecrow there for such a short time confused the people who hadn't seen Batman Begins and wondered why Cillian Murphy was in the shot with a sack on his head, and felt out-of-place with the rest of the movie. He was such a great villain though that I wouldn't hate for him to reappear in the next film in a larger way. Maybe it's the lips. I'll probably just watch Batman Begins again.

The only thing that I think would have made it better was to see Katie Holmes be blown up and not Maggie.
You're amazing. :lol:

holypotatoes

29-07-08, 03:55 PM

Man I loved that! It was a facet of such good preparation on Heath's part. Really draws out the character, and just that little bit of synecdoche adds meaning to how the Joker goes about the world. Faultless performance really - the terrorist video scene, in which he's got the fake Batman, is a particular standout.
Oh don't get me wrong I think it was a nice characteristic of his, you know with how his lips were sliced at one point in his life. It's just the fact that I'm one of those people that can't stand to hear someone chew or hear the saliva in their mouths so I was going insane hearing that in the loudest theater I've ever been to. I swear they had the volume up to the loudest it could possibly be. :lol:

Let's solve this argument, shall we? Best movie of all time is CLEARLY Mean Girls. Godfather Part II? Meh. Laurence of Arabia? So so. It's all about mean Girls. Batman certainly doesn't stand a hope in hell against Lindsay Lohan's seminal work. :)

:worthy: Mean Girls is awesome. :p

vampmogs

30-07-08, 08:34 AM

I just saw it and I LOVED IT. Honestly, it gave me Goosebumps throughout the whole thing, I got shivers up my spine. When Rachel died, even though I'd spoiled myself and read this thread, I jumped. In fact I jumped off my seat quite a few times in this movie, heck when the body swings down and hits the Mayor's window I freakin yelped :lol:

It was a fantastic movie, much MUCH better than 'Batman Begins' which I found kind mediocre, wasn't good, wasn't bad just kinda 'meh.' I think my biggest problem is that Batman himself isn't that interesting of a character to me, not in the way he's being portrayed in these movies anyway. The themes and ideas behind him are certainly interesting, but when he's in the cape and suit he's actually kinda dull. Which is odd because I love the Angel character and they're very similar, I guess Batman just suffers because he's serious all the time when he's Batman, and he isn't every dorky or funny and he doesn't interact in a humorous or intimate way with anyone around him. If it wasn't for Heath Ledgers AMAZING performance as the Joker, I don't think the movie would have really been all that great.

The Joker truly was one of the best villains I've seen on film in a long, long time. He was amazing, he was genuinely creepy and unnerving and I just eagerly anticipated every scene with him in it, I watched the movie for the Joker. The character stole the spotlight for me. It'll be very interesting to see how the next film goes without him, it'd be hard to top him or even keep on par with him. Probably the only flaw in having such a memorable amazing villain, how can you go on after that?

The themes explored in the movie were very interesting, there's most certainly a fine line between hero and villain and I love the issues it raised about being a vigilante and what this means. I really liked how the Ballerina hated the idea of ever living in a city where a vigilante was commended and applauded (also very thankful she wasn't portrayed as some dumb bimbo on Bruce's arm) but at the same time showed the other aspect of it, and how Gordon supported a vigilante because he did things the law was unable to do. It's a very blurry line and I really enjoyed that. I thought the end with Gordon's voice over about how Batman can take being the bad guy was a bit heavy handed and over the top, it was a bit to blatantly "here's the message" but still it worked, it raised some really interesting gritty themes.

And I commend the movie for how they handled the scene with the two ships, one with prisoners, the others with civilians and how both were faced with a choice of killing the other ship. There's always a predictable easy way out here, and I'm glad they didn't take it. Either it's the very predictable civilians are good, convicts are bad. Or the convicts are actually the good and the civilians blow them up which I thought was the route they might take after the convict tosses out the detonator. But the movie did neither, it made neither the villains and I really liked that. Which is funny because making neither kill the other could be seen as the easy way out, but funnily I found it less predicatble in a time when all movies are trying to be daring.

What bugged me.. well I gotta go with Wolfie on this one say and say that bloody Batman voice aggravated me. The problem is that, like Wolfie said, he had big long talks with people whilst in that voice and it just sounds so silly that it is distracting. And I guess that is a flaw with the comic medium. Because in the comics, as far as I'm aware, it's never acknowledged that people would recognise his voice. The same way the Superman franchise is incredibly silly with the idea people wouldn't recognise him as Clark Kent, simply because he doesn't have glasses on. What this Batman franchise has tried to do is give it some credibility, and in doing so changed his voice. But the story never had room for such realism because it's creators never bothered to think this one out, so instead you have the film makers resorting to making Batman have this incredibly stupid voice in an attempt to bring some sort of realism and believability to the gritty and relatively realistic film, but it fails, quite understandably. I loved the Joker licking his lips though, that was great.

I also didn't like the whole technology with the seeing through walls, mobile signals thing. To be honest, I didn't quite understand it, it made my brain hurt and I felt it was rather unnecessary. It kinda broke the mood for me, I wish they hadn't included that.

All in all a highly enjoyable film though, the best superhero movie I've ever seen and whilst I don't believe it's the best movie ever I certainly think it's one of the best movies I've ever seen, regardless of it's genre. If Ledger's performance as the Joker hadn't been in it, it would have still been a good film but not as amazing as it was for me I must admit, but still great. It wasn't as if I was bored throughout every scene without the Joker, I wasn't, I loved it all, but he just raised it a little higher for me. It didn't feel too lengthy for me at all, unlike Xmen and Spiderman which feel like they go on forever. Great film.

Oh.. and even I like 'Mean Girls.' ;)

Cell

02-08-08, 06:04 PM

Finally saw this last night, and while a good film, it was nowhere near a great film. I actually thought the story flowed rather nicely, but there were lots of little problems that brought the story down considerably. Rachel's character was completely useless and was only there to be the sacrificial lamb. The twist of Dent announcing he was Batman was obvious and really easy to pick up on before it happened. As was the fact that Ramirez was the crooked cop, don't linger on her for an extended camera shot when she escorts Dent to his car if you actually want people to be surprised that she is in fact crooked.

The cinematography was gorgeous all around, as was the majority of the CGI/prosthetics work. I did however have a problem with the way Two-Face ended up looking, he looked far too Army Of Darkness campy and that makes it hard to take him seriously. I honestly believe the effects/make-up people did the best they could, but I didn't like how he looked.

Acting wise I thought Eckhart was fantastic all the way through, as was Gary Oldman. Gyllenhall was superfluous like I said and really didn't bring much to the table. Freeman was very good in his subtle and nuanced role, and Ledger was very good as the Joker, although not great like everyone else seems to think. Still, easily the best work I've ever seen from an actor that delivered nothing but tripe in all his previous roles. I thought Bale took a step back in TDK and seemed to be along for the ride. I hate, hate, hate his idiotic Batman voice. It was so annoying that every time he talked it took me out of the movie. Outside of that he didn't really appear to be going for anything and was merely there, not bad, but not good either.

Story wise I was a fan of the interweaving of the various elements and how they managed to pull off the Joker really well, they made him a genius and that was nice. However I also thought they took various shortcuts that really hampered the flow. Cutting away right as Joker was about to slice Gambles face and then cutting away from the Joker somehow escaping the interrogation room so that they never had to deal with getting themselves out of that corner they had written themselves into. That leads to the biggest flaw of the movie, the sonar. Not only was it an unnecessary effect that ended up doing nothing for me, but it seemed very tacked on and forced, and a bad plot device. I could have done without it and I think it helped to distract from the climatic battle involving Batman against the Police and the Joker and made it into a techno fest as opposed to common men squaring off against each other where what separates Joker and Batman is their inner drive.

All the negatives aside, this was a good movie. It's nowhere near Wall.E as far as movie of the year goes, nor is it the best comic book movie this year, let alone of all time. However it is a very good movie, it was fun, it had a story that I enjoyed, and I was able to look past most of the nitpicky things for a good experience. It was far better than the dreck that was Batman Begins, and easily the best work ever delivered by either Nolan or Ledger. So, while I am sure all the various TDK fans will rip part every little thing I said was wrong with the movie, that doesn't change stop TDK from being a good, but flawed movie.

Cori

06-08-08, 03:50 PM

I finally managed to see this movie (yay for it being out in London already, Switzerland is so behind! :rolleyes: ). Like most of you here, I enjoyed it a lot. :D I wouldn’t say that it’s the best movie I have ever seen but it’s certainly one of the best comic book movies I have seen in recent years.

The Joker truly was one of the best villains I've seen on film in a long, long time. He was amazing, he was genuinely creepy and unnerving and I just eagerly anticipated every scene with him in it, I watched the movie for the Joker. The character stole the spotlight for me. It'll be very interesting to see how the next film goes without him, it'd be hard to top him or even keep on par with him. Probably the only flaw in having such a memorable amazing villain, how can you go on after that?

I couldn’t agree more! Heath Ledger’s performance absolutely blew me away. :worthy: I was truly creeped out by his Joker and yet compelled to watch him, to see the layers he added to the character, the way he played him (his facial expressions terrified me and not only because of the freaky make-up, I was also seriously creeped out by the thing he did with his tongue *shudders* ) . I also eagerly awaited all the Joker scenes, they made the movie for me! I’m not saying that the rest of the actors were bad or that the rest of the plot bored me, quite the contrary actually, but the Joker scenes had something special to them that the rest of the scenes lacked IMO.

Ledger was very good as the Joker, although not great like everyone else seems to think. Still, easily the best work I've ever seen from an actor that delivered nothing but tripe in all his previous roles.

Excuse me but have you ever seen Brokeback Mountain? Because Heath Ledger was absolutely fantastic in that movie as well and proved once and for all that he was a very fine actor. Which makes it even sadder that he is dead. :(

I thought Bale took a step back in TDK and seemed to be along for the ride. I hate, hate, hate his idiotic Batman voice.

I actually have to agree with you on that. Don’t get me wrong, I think Christian Bale is a very gifted actor but I have to say that I enjoyed his performance much more in Batman Begins (even though on the whole TDK is the better movie than Batman Begins). This is maybe due to the fact that Batman Begins was much more focused on the character of Bruce/Batman whereas TDK was almost as much about the Joker and Harvey Dent. In TDK Christian Bale seemed to be not really all that invested in the movie and in his role, at least that’s the impression I got. I also concur with you about the Batman voice, it is really stupid and annoying and definitely interrupted the flow of the movie for me.

I can’t believe that Rachel died and the way she died, that was so sad! The way Dent mourned for her, going crazy with grief and all was both quite touching and disturbing. And man I’m so glad that Katie Holmes was not in TDK, her dull performance was one of the few annoyances in Batman Begins for me (plus she annoys me so much!). Now Maggie Gyllenhaal’s performance was not exactly her best ever but at least she put some heart into the scarce material she was given and she is an actress that I actually like so when Rachel died, I was actually upset. Whereas if Katie Holmes had played her, I probably would have cheered. ;)

I’m definitely gonna go see TDK a second time when it finally comes to Switzerland, I’m sure there are a few things that you can appreciate better the second time around. Oh and if Heath Ledger does not get an Academy Award nomination for his performance, I’m gonna be seriously pissed off!

tangent

12-08-08, 09:38 PM

Wello nly just got round to seeing it and i'm still sort of coming down from what was a fantasticly absorbing experience.

The first five minutes were brilliant. I loved that robbery scene with a passion and it tells us so much about our antagonist. Bale did a decent job once more as Bruce Wayne (I actually liked him in the restaurant scene) and as the Bat. The voice didn't bother me too much cos it's something that we've had to put up with regarding Batman before.

The plot started off fine and moved on at a good pace for me, but I thought it sagged just a little in some places which left me thinking it could perhaps be tightened up some. The boat scene in particular I thought was missing tension, I never really felt the sense of impending splodeyness which given non splodeyness meant it ws a bit of a 'nyeh' moment for me (My preference would have been for the 'good boat' to have pressed their detonator and for it to be a double cross that actually blew themselves up but still; no sense of urgency.)

what makes, absolutely makes, the film for me though is the bad guys. Two face was brilliant and I so, so hope the death is a fakeout and he's safely tucked away in Arkham ready to do more damage. The star of the show though was definitely Heath Ledgers Joker. I was prepared for him to be good but the pared down, anarchist without any hand buzzers or acid squirting daisys (just knives and lint) was phenomenal and a real tribute to the way that Nolan has taken the Batman ledgend and firmly routed it in real life. It's still bigger and darker than anything you'll find out and about on the streets but it doesn't have anything that you think 'comic book' avout. It's a fantasy film but it plays off a certain sense of realism.

Ledger's performance within that framework is wonderful too. The lip licking and hair sweeping add dimension to the character and there's a sense of emptiness behind his eyes a sense of selflessness. The fact that this is a character who will just keep pushing and pushing to see how far he can push, because he finds it interesting and because he has nothing he cares about losing comes through brilliantly.

I love how they've kept so much mystery around the joker too. No name, no back story (except for the myriad versions he tells himself) no real goals except to spread anarchy as far as he can. He blows in and out of the film like a force of nature, a destructive whirlwind that corrupts or destroys everything it touches just... because.

My only real criticisms of the film is that slight spongyness that crops up now and then and the fact that they created and (seemingly) destroyed a great character in Two-face in such a short time span (And i also disagree about two-faces make up. It's about five and a half miles better than tommy-lee Jones')

Best superhero film to date. Not the best film ever but definitely the best in it's genre and a very, very good film overall.