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CaptainOats
03-07-08, 09:16 AM
This thread is to discuss your thoughts on Season Eight. All of your likes to dislikes. From the covers to the plots, how do you feel about where the series is going? So bring on the buffy, and bring on the bad! :xd

I will start with the bad. Personally, i think the way dawn is a giant and changing is way to Fantasy. It didn't really fit into the way the element of the show feeled to me but others may disagree. Just my opinion, and the only other thing which isn't a big deal i find a nuisance. There are waaayyyyy to many different covers for the comics. I have a subsription to Buffy S8 and each month i get a different type of cover. I have had to hunt down the realistic looking covers which i prefer way more. I know i am just being picky and that it has nothing to do with the series but i think it would be better to just have all the issues looking realistic.

Now for the good. Well first of all - BUFFY COMING BACK! i didn't think there was any way buffy would come back but somehow it did! I like the story arc idea's too. they're keeping it under the same basis that got us all hooked with a few surprises here and there they couldn't have done because of budget. Overall i am very happy! It's Buffy!

Nina
03-07-08, 09:44 AM
I'm not sure what I think about it. I love the stories, but somehow I can't really feel the connection with the tv-series.

I'll start with the good;
I know that this isn't part of the story, but I love the covers ... those are stunning. The inside art, I'm not sure of ... they look too young. But it's very well painted.

I loved Faith's story, from all the characters ... she felt the most like the character I knew. Besides, it was interesting to see how they dealed with a bad slayer.

Good writing, it has some WTF? moments ... but right now, there is pretty good writing.

There are some very interesting storylines coming. And not just the obvious questions; Who is Twilight and who betrays Buffy.

Also, Xander has story ... *yay*


Less *yay*;
Like I already said at the start of this post; I have no connection with this story. If you see where we left them in Chosen and where they are now ... story and characters ... it doesn't feel the same. Also the fairytale swing has something to do with it. There happened a lot of weird things in the series (like Olaf), but season 8 brings the magic/weirdness to a whole new level. From the sleeping beauty to Dawn and how she looks to Willow on dreamtrips.
It's not impossible or OOC ... I just can't feel the good old BtVS-vibe.

Buffy is more likable in season 8 wich is great, but I still really don't enjoy her character. This is probably the fault of season 6 and 7 but the fact that she is entering the grey area is not making me fall in love with her again. If somebody enters that area, I need to know why, to understand it so I can accept it. And I've no idea why Buffy is doing what she is doing, and I can't see her point or understand it. So, I hope that there will be an explanation somewhere, but until then ... I'm a little meh on ms. Summers.

The story goes slow and there are so many storylines (Yes, I'm 6 years old and after a year without real answers ... I'm bored). Is this going to be a season with in the first part of the season only questions and after that only answers? Because right now, I've so many questions ... and I'm afraid that I don't get all the answers. And all the arcs feel a little bit connectionless. The one moment we are looking how Faith and Giles are kicked out of the gang, the next moment we get Dracula (Xander's secret pal) in Japan and after that they are going to travel to the future. It doesn't feel like one big story and more like every writer can pick his/her own characters and can make up an own story.

Sosa lola
03-07-08, 10:14 AM
Haven't read issue 16 yet, but here are my answers:

The Good:

- I've read many S8 continuations and all were great, but there's something off about them that makes them not real to me. All dwell on the past events of the TV show, their aim is fix the un-fixed: character issues, loose plotlines, ship issues and do not move forward to new things.

S8, on the other hand, did what every season did. It went ahead to new places, new plotlines, new characters, new developments for our characters. It rarely mentions the past and that's pure Buffy. How many times have we heard about Cordelia or Oz after they had left and they were main characters to the story in High School Years? The new elements and moving forward instead of dwelling on the past is what makes this a believable continuation for me than other S8 writings by fans.

- Xander finally has a story!!!

- Xander and Buffy's close friendship.

- Buffy's thing with Satsu, it felt real for me.

- The Faith arc and the Tokyo arc were amazing.


The Bad:

- The Warren retcon. I hate retcons, they ruin my enjoyment of the show, and I feel that Warren should have stayed dead, because his death was a great scene.

-Xander's annoying uniform. Thankfully, he was wearing something else in #15. Also, Willow's dresses, I was beyond happy to see her wearing pants in #8 and #9.

CaptainOats
03-07-08, 08:31 PM
I'm not sure what I think about it. I love the stories, but somehow I can't really feel the connection with the tv-series.

I'll start with the good;
I know that this isn't part of the story, but I love the covers ... they are stunning. The inside art, I'm not sure of ... they look too young. But it's very well painted.

I loved Faith's story, from all the characters ... she felt the most like the character I knew. Besides, it was interesting to see how they dealed with a bad slayer.

Good writing, it has some WTF? moments ... but right now, ther is pretty good writing.

There are some very interesting storylines coming. And not just the obvious questions; Who is Twilight and who betrays Buffy.

Also, Xander has story ... *yay*


Less *yay*;
Like I already said at the start of this post; I have no connection with this story. If you see where we left them in Chosen and where they are now ... story and characters ... it doesn't feel the same. Also the fairytale swing has something to do with it. There happened a lot of weird things in the series (like Olaf), but season 8 brings the magic/weirdness to a whole new level. From the sleeping beauty to Dawn and how she looks to Willow on dreamtrips.
It's not impossible or OOC ... I just can't feel the good old BtVS-vibe.

Buffy is more likable in season 8 wich is great, but I still really don't enjoy her character. This is probably the fault of season 6 and 7 but the fact that she is entering the grey area is not making me fall in love with her again. If somebody enters that area, I need to know why, to understand it so I accept it. And I've no idea why Buffy is doing what she is doing, and I can't see her point or understand it. So, I hope that there will be an explanation somewhere, but until then ... I'm a little meh on ms. Summers.

The story goes slow and there are so many storylines (Yes, I'm 6 years old and after a year without real answers ... I'm bored). Is this going to be a season with in the first part of the season only questions and after that only answers? Because right now, I've so many questions ... and I'm afraid that I don't get all the answers. And all the arcs feel a little bit connectionless. The one moment we are looking how Faith and Giles are kicked out of the gang, the next moment we get Dracula (Xander's secret pal) in Japan and after that they are going to travel to the future. It doesn't feel like one big story and more like every writer can pick his/her own characters and can make up an own story.

I totally agree with you Nina. The first covers that come out on stands are fantastic. And i'm glad im not the only one who feels that something is just off about season eight. It just doesn't really feel like what the show used to be. And i hope the whole story arcs are somehow connected in the end cuz i hate how they are randomly just jumping all over the place. And i still think the whole dawn changing thing is way to fantasy and dont even let me get started about the whole buffy/satsu thing goin on! I think season eight was under to much pressure to not ruin the show and live up to the fans expectations, and believe me they've tried.....but im just not sure if its completely on par. Dont get me wrong, i still love season eight and am ecstatic that buffy is back once more, but i just hope they can get it back under control. We'll see!

Retrograde
03-07-08, 08:45 PM
I've only read the first five, and I may be biased because I'm really not a comic person (hence why I haven't bought any more than the first five!) but they do not compare at all to the tv series.

I think because it's a comic and therefore less dynamic than anything on television, it's very easy to get carried away with the storylines, also as there's nothing you can't do, in terms of 'special effects' and that! I feel it's a bit over-dramatic, although it is nice that the story is continued :) I'll get the rest of them from somewhere and reply again when I'm more educated in the matter!

Boltmaiden
03-07-08, 08:50 PM
The Good:
A season 8? I went for a very long time thinking fans had tried to pick up where the show left off and therefore did not pay attention but then finding out that this is from Joss in the sense he produces and or writes made me do a dance because that meant new stories for Buffy and the gang!

Joss dealing with the Girl in Question. I know that was technically an Angel thing since it was in his series, but I seriously had major issues about that whole episode. I could believe Joss would insult my intelligence and therefore was so happy he fixed it by having decoys. Thank you Joss for that!

Others have said it but Xander having stories and being really involved, yay!

Buffy showing glimpses of the Buffy I loved so much for so long.

Again others have already mentioned: Faith Arc, Tokyo Arc...especially Dracula. I understand there is a lot of controversy surrounding him but in his last apperance, he was so bad ass...I loved him!

Though physcially Dawn is um..weird I say thank God that she is still shwoing signs of strength and being the bad ass sister I always hoped she would be for Buffy.

Twilight: Don't know much, happy about that, he is intriguing.

Bad
Love Willow but I am really confused with what is going on with her. I feel really stupid when we get into parts about her snake goddess or what was going on when she was being err...killed by Warren. I just feel like I am not smart enough to understand or that I missed something.

Buffy/Satsu- has nothing to do with her being with a woman, more that even though it has ended nice...Buffy was still using her err... partner for what she needs. That makes me sad.

No Giles/Buffy resolution or better yet explination on why things are the way they are between them. I hope we get some good info soon.

lara
03-07-08, 09:04 PM
Well, I was ok with the finale of the show, except with Spike dying, since I'm a spuffy fan, but all in all it was a good finale for me, I don't think season 8 was necessary. But Joss did it, and having more Buffy is always a "yay!" and it's supposed to be cannon. :2party:

Another "yay" is that they deal with what happened in "The girl in question", I just rewatched that episode yesterday and it really did not make any sence, it was funny though. I also like that Buffy seems a little more happy than in previous seasons or at least more calmed, I like that Buffy and Xander are on really good friendly terms and that we'll have...

Oz coming back, I always wondered what had happened with his character

A "nay" for me, it's the relationship with Satsu, don't like Buffy using someone like that again. And the thing with Willow, I'm not really understanding her storyline. Another "nay" is Dracula & Xander's relashionship, don't get me wrong, I like Dracula and I like Xander but the relashionship there seems a bit out of character for me. :s

CaptainOats
03-07-08, 09:16 PM
Another "yay" is that they deal with what happened in "The girl in question", I just rewatched that episode yesterday and it really did not make any sence, it was funny though.

The reason almost nobody understood ''the girl in question'' when they watched it was becuase most fans weren't aware of the buffy novel ''The Queen of the Slayers''. It was written by Nancy Holder and Joss gave it the go ahead and they announced it canon. Most fans weren't aware of this though because the population of buffy fans that read buffy books was quite low at the time after the series had ended. It tied up a lot of stuff that happened in season five of angel and it would still be worthwhile for everyone to read becuase it is an amazing story and tied up the whole buffy angel series. But then joss started the comics and had to announce the book as non-canon! You should still read it though!

Rowan Hawthorn
03-07-08, 11:59 PM
The reason almost nobody understood ''the girl in question'' when they watched it was becuase most fans weren't aware of the buffy novel ''The Queen of the Slayers''. It was written by Nancy Holder and Joss gave it the go ahead and they announced it canon.

Joss announced it canon where exactly? I've never seen that anywhere.

CaptainOats
04-07-08, 12:16 AM
Joss announced it canon where exactly? I've never seen that anywhere.

The book came out a few years back and he announced it canon at the time of the release, but now that he is making Buffy Season Eight and Angel: After the Fall he had to announce it non-canon. Unfortunately, when the book was released, angel had also ended and not many fans were reading the books anymore and most people were unaware of this new attachment to the series. But if you don't want to read it anymore you dont have to because it isn't canon anymore! Sorry for the confusion!

Rowan Hawthorn
04-07-08, 01:20 AM
The book came out a few years back and he announced it canon at the time of the release, but now that he is making Buffy Season Eight and Angel: After the Fall he had to announce it non-canon. Unfortunately, when the book was released, angel had also ended and not many fans were reading the books anymore and most people were unaware of this new attachment to the series. But if you don't want to read it anymore you dont have to because it isn't canon anymore! Sorry for the confusion!

I've read it, back when it was first released. What I've never read is anything where Joss - or anyone, actually, except for a few fans - ever said it was canon. I know some people assumed that all the tie-in novels were canon because Joss and Fox "approved" them, but that was just to make sure that the authors didn't get too carried away (one author said that, as long as their storyline didn't impinge on anything that Joss actually had planned, they could do pretty much whatever they wanted with the understanding that they had to "put the toys back in the box afterwards" - i.e., make sure that they left the Buffyverse where it was when they started.)

CaptainOats
04-07-08, 04:03 AM
Have you read Dark Congress by Christopher Golden? That's another good book? You should also join the ''Reader's of the Buffy Books Group''. Its a group to discuss all the books, comics or anything to do with buffy really in book-type format!

vampmogs
04-07-08, 04:22 AM
I love season eight, as I've already said numerous times, if this were on TV I think it would be one of the best seasons ever, just behind season three and two IMO. I love it, its only impairment is that it is a comic book, which is great for the epic stuff, but obviously I'd prefer it if it was televised. But story-wise, one of the best seasons ever.

The yay:

Buffy/Xander/Willow bonding. It's go grea that Joss remembers how important these three are and the friendship isn't neglected like it was in later seasons, it's back and as strong as ever and that's really cool.

Xander gets a story which is fantastic. He was sidelined from season3/season 4 and was never given the atteniton he deserves again. Finally he's getting a story again, proving he isn't a boring character as some suggested.

Buffy's very likeable again. Even with her morally grey actions this season she's still written far better than she was in season six and in particular season seven. She's witty, whimsy, can be tough and tender at the same time and is nice to her friends, it's what made her so iconic in the first place.

Twilight is a big bad who actually poses a serious threat and who isn't all talk like the First was. Best big bad since Glory IMO.

The writing is more quippy, quirky and fun than it was in the last two seasons of the show, and IMO even since season three. It lost some of it's spark in later years, in particular season 7 and I think it's back to its glory days.

The new slayers are likeable and in no way annoying like the potentials of the season before...

The Nay:

Comic Book. Seriously it's grown on me a great deal and I don't even notice it now. But of course I'd rather this be televised, but that's never going to happen so I don't judge the season on it, like I said I think the stories are amazing.

Absent Giles: Just cause I love Giles. I want to see more of him, but both Joss and Allie have said he's most certainly coming back, which I suspected anyway, so hopefully this won't be a nay for long.

Rowan Hawthorn
04-07-08, 05:13 AM
Have you read Dark Congress by Christopher Golden? That's another good book? You should also join the ''Reader's of the Buffy Books Group''. Its a group to discuss all the books, comics or anything to do with buffy really in book-type format!

I don't think I've read that one, but I've read most of the books. I wasn't really impressed with any of them, I'm afraid. I was especially disappointed in the "Wicked Willow" series. I'd read Navarro's script adaptations ("The Willow Files") and thought she had about the best handle on the voices of any of the tie-in authors I'd read up until then. But "WW" just... stunk.


As for Season 8, it's been mostly Yay! for me. My biggest complaints are the delay between issues (which can't really be helped) and the inconsistency in the artwork. Overall, I prefer Georges Jeanty's work, even though he's been guilty of a little inconsistent work as well (disclaimer: I don't mean that the characters aren't *photo-realistic*; I don't expect that, anyway. What I mean is that characters' appearance isn't always consistent from issue to issue or even panel to panel.) It's not a big deal, just a little jarring sometimes. The writing - especially the dialogue - has been top-shelf so far; I can absolutely "hear" the actors' voices delivering their lines.

I just wish I had the patience to wait for the entire series to be released so I can go through the entire thing at once (of course, I will anyway, after it's all done...)

Wolfie Gilmore
04-07-08, 10:44 AM
I love it, its only impairment is that it is a comic book, which is great for the epic stuff, but obviously I'd prefer it if it was televised. But story-wise, one of the best seasons ever.

Interesting - the "obviously", I mean. Because, as a big fan of comics, I'm trying to work out if I would prefer it to be a tv show or not. I can't decide. On the one hand, I grew used to it on telly, so sometimes I miss things that were possible on telly but now aren't (actor's facial expressions, the rising music and the rising... music ;)). But then, there are things that a comic can do, and ways that it excites me, that tv doesn't.

On the whole, I guess I would prefer it to be on telly, because that was how I grew to love Buffy, but I'll definitely defend the transition to comics against anyone who thinks it's an out-and-out bad thing. It's just a change, that's all. One that I sometimes can't quite get my head around, but in many ways, fascinating.

sueworld
04-07-08, 12:03 PM
Interesting - the "obviously", I mean. Because, as a big fan of comics, I'm trying to work out if I would prefer it to be a tv show or not. I can't decide. On the one hand, I grew used to it on telly, so sometimes I miss things that were possible on telly but now aren't (actor's facial expressions, the rising music and the rising... music ). But then, there are things that a comic can do, and ways that it excites me, that tv doesn't.

Oh lord, It's live action for me every time I'm afraid. For me at least It really is the 'superior' medium, and thats coming from someone who was brought up on Marvel comics. :lol:

I suppose It's really unfair to compare a TV show to it's comic spin off, because for a start the original product was live action, and had the benefit of the extra input of a brilliant cast, and a great set of staff writers as well as other assorted production people. All coming together to create one hell of a show, and because that made so much of an impact, you cannot help but keep offering up these comics as a comparrison, which often means the comics just don't cut it for me really.

Maybe thats why I've come to conclusion that in comic form we are obviously getting 'pure undiluted Joss' and so I've found myself realising that his view of what Buffy should be like is vastly different to mine.

For me Having a live actor 'emote' his lines on a screen just wins hands down over a static drawing, especially when I used to find it difficult sometimes to realise who I was looking at. Which did happen with me with some of the characters/panels.

For me TV has the ability to bring out a stranger emotional response then a comic, especially as the parent show was a live action thing.

Season 8 is a glorified spin-off and can't be compared to characters such as Spiderman or Supes who started life in the comic medium and who we'ren't known as anything else. Only later did they move into various forms of live action. For Buffy It was the other way around of course and it's very hard to forget the 'specter' of the 'real deal' hanging over it when reading them.

Thats not to say comics can't cover complex characterization and plots because they obviously can. Take 'Watchmen' for example, It's just that Joss doesn't seem to be aiming his product at that kind of audience (and why should he I suppose), so for me it ends up being rather more disappointing and I have to say a tad juvenile in places. I view them as 'Buffy lite'.

The upside? Well yes a version of Buffy is back, which is a good thing for those who are enjoying it, and it's nice to see folks discussing it on fan boards such as this one.

Wolfie Gilmore
04-07-08, 12:30 PM
Oh lord, It's live action for me every time I'm afraid. For me at least It really is the 'superior' medium, and thats coming from someone who was brought up on Marvel comics. :lol:

Ah, well that explains it then. You should’ve been brought up on DC Vertigo instead :D :D :D

Though, interestingly… I feel Joss tends much more towards the Marvel style than the DC – much less mythic/symbolic, much more personal, about peoples’ “issues”, their quirks.

Also, he totally stole various X-Men characters. Didn’t he say either Willow or Buffy was kinda Kittie Pryde? And the less said about Gwen *coughRoguecough* on AtS the better! And Dark Willow…well, he even admits (via Andrew) that that’s basically Dark Phoenix.

But, re the TV > comics transition, it does put the comics at a disadvantage, cos it’s not the way we got to know the characters, and it works in totally different ways. I can find a comic just as emotionally involving as a tv show (Y Last Man had me almost blubbing in public the other day), but if Y had been a TV show first…maybe not?

The transition the other way round is often a problem too… mostly because movies adapted from comic books often end up shit, can’t tell why! I’ll be interested to see how Preacher (A Garth Ennis series) fares if it ever does get turned into an HBO show.

But it’s interesting what you say about undiluted Joss.


Maybe thats why I've come to conclusion that in comic form we are obviously getting 'pure undiluted Joss' and so I've found myself realising that his view of what Buffy should be like is vastly different to mine.

The issues he’s written have not been my favourites, on the whole, and I think some of the other writers are doing a better job – BKV (who did Y Last Man, actually!), Drew Goddard, for example. So, not so much the free rein of the comics that’s the problem…but Joss himself having free rein. Kid, sweetshop, leads to vomiting. I think him and Russell T Davies seem to share a slight lack of restraint thing! Though it’s hard to say what is an individual creator’s input, even in a comic over a tv show…depends how the artist is involved, really, whether it’s a dictatorial relationship (here’s the script, go illustrate!) or whether there’s more back and forth between them.



For me Having a live actor 'emote' his lines on a screen just wins hands down over a static drawing, especially when I used to find it difficult sometimes to realise who I was looking at. Which did happen with me with some of the characters/panels.

Yeah, that’s been a big issue for me in the Angel comics…some of them look so similar! Had the same problem in Buffy with some of the potentials. Though, to be fair, I had that on the show too!



Thats not to say comics can't cover complex characterization and plots because they obviously can. Take 'Watchmen' for example, It's just that Joss doesn't seem to be aiming his product at that kind of audience (and why should he I suppose), so for me it ends up being rather more disappointing and I have to say a tad juvenile in places. I view them as 'Buffy lite'.

I wouldn’t go that far, but I do agree that there are better comics out there. I’d say the Buffy comics, qua comics, are good verging on very good… but that’s grading on a curve that includes Maus, Watchmen, comics by Gipi (newish Italian guy…genius genius genius), Halo Jones, Hellblazer (ok, that’s a personal fave, not claiming it as great art or anything…but it gets me where I live. It’s Ripper, if he wasn’t such a southern pansy ;)).

Buffy as a television show stands out because….well, it’s unique. Ooh, that’s interesting. I’ve just thought about what Joss said re “Buffy is a comic book”… the show takes a lot of comic book tropes (geeky outsiders, superpowers, monsters, quippy banter, self-referentiality) and puts them on tv in ways that hadn’t really been done before… but when you put that in a comics context, it’s actually less unique. By taking from comics to make the tv show, when you transfer to comics, you don’t stand out so much. It’s a whole circular thing. Or maybe not circle. Wibbley wobbley influency wincey…?

So, Buffy doesn’t make such a good comic because the tv show is so comic like? I’m not sure I agree with my own thesis, since I think the comics use the medium in interesting ways, so the typical comic book subject matter becomes more than just typical. The patchwork storytelling approach, if it all comes together in the end, could be very impressive.

Also, it’s very funny. Neigh!

Koos
04-07-08, 01:24 PM
The way the show ended was horrible. Chosen was one of the worst episodes in entire show. S7 was disrespecfull to most of the characters, whom where forced to act OOC There's was barely a plot. The big bad was boring. And the solution to the problem came not from the scoobies but form W&H of all places. There's was no closure to a lot of characters. Issues between Buffy and the other scoobies (Giles in particular) were still undealt with. S8 was simply needed to wash away the horrible taste of S7.

S8 has a lot of the same arcs as S6/S7 did. But it is fleshed out way better. The characters are showing their strength again. There's in interesting and cool big There's mystery and action going on. And we aren't ripped of some necessary Scooby-time because it is so hard to write. I would say that is as good as the earlier seasons used to be.

sueworld
04-07-08, 01:37 PM
but Joss himself having free rein. Kid, sweetshop, leads to vomiting. I think him and Russell T Davies seem to share a slight lack of restraint thing!

Oh god yes! I agree 100% with that!


Buffy as a television show stands out because….well, it’s unique. Ooh, that’s interesting. I’ve just thought about what Joss said re “Buffy is a comic book”… the show takes a lot of comic book tropes (geeky outsiders, superpowers, monsters, quippy banter, self-referentiality) and puts them on tv in ways that hadn’t really been done before… but when you put that in a comics context, it’s actually less unique. By taking from comics to make the tv show, when you transfer to comics, you don’t stand out so much. It’s a whole circular thing. Or maybe not circle. Wibbley wobbley influency wincey…?

So, Buffy doesn’t make such a good comic because the tv show is so comic like?

Bingo! You've hit the nail right on the head here as far as I'm concerned!

Yes, Buffy's comic book larger then life approach to story telling was very unique when it hit the TV screen way back when, but when you transfer that idea back onto a comic book medium, well then at best it just becomes rather 'average' compared to what else is out there.

It's also has the problem of being stuck between two stools really. For some fans of the show it's written content is too juvenile, and some more into comic books it's not action packed enough and too 'wordy', and not filled with enough big busted gun toting babes. :roll:

NimNams
05-07-08, 01:51 AM
Anyone that didn't love the most recent issue is secretly a robot, and is therefore incapable of emotions.

dinamo
05-07-08, 02:09 AM
I've gotten more into the comics as they've gone along. I didn't really care to much for the first few up until Faith's arc really. I'm enjoying the Willow storyline at the moment, because it seems to have stopped her being uber powerful. It seems there are people who are more powerful than her who have told her stuff she doesn't like. I loved Kumiko even though we only saw her a bit, and I truly hope she didn't die and got away. I love that Twilight is a villian who is doing stuff and isn't all mouth and no action. He has others to do some of his dirty work, but as proved in his fight with Buffy he is also perfectly capable of doing it himself as well.

I'm not too keen on the Dawn stuff unless they explain in the end why it all happened. It just seems more like its for fun or jokes at the moment. I didn't really like Warren and Amy initially but after the last issue 8:16, I'm intrigued about them a little bit again and wonder what will happen with them, particularly Amy. I wish we could have heard a little bit more about Anya, and how Xander dealt with it, it just seemed like it was swept under the carpet. Also I don't know how I feel about the way they seem to be introducing new slayers into the mix and then getting rid of them one way or another. they don't have to have the new slayers in every issue, but it would be nice to have a small core group that is around that we can get to know, and learn more about the new slayer organisation and slayer ways from.

Sosa lola
05-07-08, 10:27 AM
It was said that Xander went to Dracula's castle because he was grieving Anya, which is more crazy than his reaction to Renee's death.

Skippcomet
05-07-08, 02:47 PM
Sue, not to be snarky, but I'm curious. When Buffy was still a TV show, were you under the impression that Joss's idea of Buffy should be about and your idea of what it should be about were a lot closer?

vampmogs
05-07-08, 02:49 PM
Oh just saw this from you Wolfie! :D


Interesting - the "obviously", I mean. Because, as a big fan of comics, I'm trying to work out if I would prefer it to be a tv show or not. I can't decide. On the one hand, I grew used to it on telly, so sometimes I miss things that were possible on telly but now aren't (actor's facial expressions, the rising music and the rising... music ;)). But then, there are things that a comic can do, and ways that it excites me, that tv doesn't.

The one thing I miss about the televised seasons is the action. I adored the action, I don't care what anyone says, it was as vital to the show as all the great character stuff! It was another peice of the puzzle that made the show great! A comic book doesn't get the action going for me, I don't find it riverting and find myself often prefering just conversations instead.

The only time I'm riverted by the action sequences in the comic is when it's between two characters of importance, like Buffy VS Twilight or Willow VS Amy. Though in saying that I found the action in Issue #15 to be fantastic. I thought that was great and it actually got me all excited and in deep suspense, as Willow and Kumiko were thrown out of the window, Buffy prepared to leap, Drac went all out fang ect. So perhaps I'm starting to get into it now?

sueworld
05-07-08, 02:58 PM
Sue, not to be snarky, but I'm curious. When Buffy was still a TV show, were you under the impression that Joss's idea of Buffy should be about and your idea of what it should be about were a lot closer?

What I'm trying to say in my own clumsy way is, that Joss's vision of Buffy as it appeared on screen I very much enjoyed. I loved the verse that he had created for himself there. The comics are almost a completely new entity for me personally. The high tech, Giant Dawn, Willow flying around like Tinkerbell on crack, the whole quasi military Slayer army, Buffy having her own troop carrier etc, aren't my idea of what the show was about. The comics make the TV show look possibly low key in comparison. *g*

I can't but help but think If there hadn't been any constraints when it comes to making the TV series way back when, and Joss had placed the comics version of Buffy as the TV series, well then I probaly wouldn't have become a fan of it.

Enisy
05-07-08, 03:10 PM
Would have voted "Like It" a couple of months ago, but lately I've been veering more into "Don't Like It" territory -- mostly because I just can't bring myself to care. Aside from Buffy, all my favourite characters are either spun off (Spike, Angel) or AWOL (Giles), and Buffy herself put me off when she started using someone who loved her for sex again, effectively erasing two seasons of character development. (There's a reason that most of the people doing the reading and posting are primarily Xander and/or Willow fans, while the -- large -- differently-minded portion of the fandom has isolated itself at LiveJournal or closed forums.) The snail-paced plot, the big retcons (notdead!Warren and Dracula/Xander being the worst offenders), the unlimited "budget" and the crackfic-esque scenes/developments (Giant Dawn, Mecha Dawn, Centaur Dawn, to name the obvious examples) all conspire to slacken the rules of the 'verse, to the point that I find it nearly unrecognizable. I guess my vision of the show does not correspond to what Joss's vision of the show would have been, without external factors (if the budget hadn't posed restrictions, if the network hadn't pushed for romances, if James Marsters or Emma Caulfield hadn't been good actors, if the network had been more receptive to concepts like bisexual!Buffy, if Willow could fly all the time, if they could use as many secondary characters as they wanted, etc.)

vampmogs
05-07-08, 03:26 PM
"The thing about changing the world, once you do, the worlds all different..."

I think that quote right there sums up the transition from season seven into season eight. The world is all different, as Sue says, we are confronted immediately with 'high tech gear' a 'quasi slayer army' 'aircraft carriers' and it's an initial shock. But personally I never felt this was because Joss can, I've always seen it as very intentional and deliberate. The first words we get from Buffy are "everybody calls me ma'am these days" and there you have her initial discomfort with her new life. I think it's all been set up very intentionally to make us feel different and shocked by "the world being all different."

I never felt as if it was a plot convenience or Joss getting too excited with the new medium mainly because our attention is drawn to these new changes on a number of occasions. I see Willow as the voice of the audience in concern to these matters, just like the audience she's someone who didn't progress with all these changes but came smack bam right into the middle of them, and she immediately draws attention to them. I think it's essential to Buffy's story this season and the increasing, possibly dangerous, changes in her. From Buffy being overly abundant and paranoid in her desire to attain as much security as possible in 'No Future For You' which catches the attention of Willow, to Willow making snarky comments regarding where her illegal funding as been spent on in the most recent 'Time of Your Life' issue. I feel that if Joss makes a point in the story of having our attention turned to how Buffy's been spending her money, and what she's surrounded herself with, we are meant to find it unnerving, and potentially displeasing just like Willow has.

And I see the comic medium as the perfect avenue to explore all these changes, which I personally feel are natural and necessary given how ‘Chosen’ ended. We ended the series in a massively epic battle against the potentials and Ubervamps, with the destruction of the small town of Sunnydale and the revelation that all over the world, “slayers are awakening everywhere.” It’s not only necessary, but natural, I believe, that everything becomes more ‘epic.’ Just like every televised season, in which the threat would become bigger and more lethal in correspondence to the Scooby’s evolution, they now have thousands of slayers active, and the threat needs to recognise that. Hence, large zombie armies ect.

The same pretty much goes for Willow’s character this season as well. We don’t see Xander doing anything particularly out there, because his character hasn’t been called to do that. But Willow’s storyline appears to revolve around her mysterious relationship with Saga Vasuki and her growing power. The flying, IMO, is a deliberate sign that she has indeed become more powerful and is, once again, very intended by Joss.

Honestly if none of this had been paid any attention I’d feel the same way as Sue, but because the story has repeatedly drawn our attention to these changes, I see them as not only deliberate but necessary for the progression of the series.

Which is why I don't necessarily believe if Joss had an unlimited budget every season would have been exactly like this. Every season got bigger and grander, I see season 8 as no different in that regard. How else could they have posed a threat to Buffy and all these slayers without the epic? It'd be pointless.

Enisy
05-07-08, 04:06 PM
I'm not sure about that. We know for a fact that Giant Dawn, to name an example, would have happened in the TV series, if not for the limited budget.

sueworld
05-07-08, 04:31 PM
I'm not sure about that. We know for a fact that Giant Dawn, to name an example, would have happened in the TV series, if not for the limited budget.

No really? *shudder* Come to think of it even way back then they could have created the effect with good old CSO. Thing is it probaly would have come across as extremly silly, which is how it came across to me in the comics, sadly.


And I see the comic medium as the perfect avenue to explore all these changes, which I personally feel are natural and necessary given how ‘Chosen’ ended. We ended the series in a massively epic battle against the potentials and Ubervamps, with the destruction of the small town of Sunnydale and the revelation that all over the world, “slayers are awakening everywhere.” It’s not only necessary, but natural, I believe, that everything becomes more ‘epic.’ Just like every televised season, in which the threat would become bigger and more lethal in correspondence to the Scooby’s evolution, they now have thousands of slayers active, and the threat needs to recognise that. Hence, large zombie armies ect.

Thing is for personally, Buffy hasn't been about 'epic' but large events explored and written about in a much more intimate way, and explored through the various characters. If I wanted epic I'd be a fan of Lord of the Rings.

I'm sure Joss has a point to all this somewhere along the line, but I'm afraid as things are crawling along at a snails pace, and Joss doesn't seem to be in any hurry to flesh out it out any quicker I'm not sure I can be bothered to stick around and find out really.

vampmogs
06-07-08, 04:40 AM
Thing is for personally, Buffy hasn't been about 'epic' but large events explored and written about in a much more intimate way, and explored through the various characters. If I wanted epic I'd be a fan of Lord of the Rings.

But has season eight really been different in that regard? I mean the battle vs the slayers and Toru's vamp army was most certainly very epic, but throughout we had the very intimate scene of Xander/Renee, the intimate scene between Buffy/Willow talking about Satsu, seeing Dracula's affection for Xander ect.


I'm sure Joss has a point to all this somewhere along the line, but I'm afraid as things are crawling along at a snails pace, and Joss doesn't seem to be in any hurry to flesh out it out any quicker I'm not sure I can be bothered to stick around and find out really.

From memory he said that things really start picking up the pace in Issue #21 after this current arc and one more standalone. Really I think the only reason it feels like a snail pace to a lot of people is because unlike 'After the Fall' this season has arcs as well as standalones, and arcs take up four issues. We have to remember though that a lot can happen in those four issues. But standalones such as 'The Chain' 'Anywhere But Here' or 'A Beautiful Sunset' didn't feel like snail pace to me, and that's basically all we'll be getting for a while after Issue #21.

I'm personally fine with it unravelling slowly myself. For years I wanted more Buffy and now I've got it, and to make it better I'm really happy with the story. The story can unravel as slowly as it needs to for me, it just means I have more Buffy to digest for longer and I'm more than ok with that.

KingofCretins
06-07-08, 08:16 AM
If we're honest, taking a primary interest in the bona fide scoobies is the subversive act in the fandom at this point -- it's been years since it wasn't all but presumed that fans had decided to treat Buffy, Faith, Spike, and Angel as the main characters of the Buffyverse. To me, it's the reinvigoration of compelling arcs for Xander and Willow, really for the first time since Season 5 for both (Willow on the UPN seasons was just sort of flat addiction/recovery girl) are part of why Season 8 is also the best season since Season 5. It's a huge win for the series that Joss is "dancing with who brung him", story-wise.

sueworld
06-07-08, 11:46 AM
But has season eight really been different in that regard? I mean the battle vs the slayers and Toru's vamp army was most certainly very epic, but throughout we had the very intimate scene of Xander/Renee, the intimate scene between Buffy/Willow talking about Satsu, seeing Dracula's affection for Xander ect.


Sorry I found her so badly undeveloped as a character, that anything to do with her carried hardly any emotional impact at all. That seems to be a problem for some readers that I know, and that is they find the 'pure cartoon' characters so thinly fleshed out that they don't stand up well against the characters that had a TV counterpart.


I'm personally fine with it unravelling slowly myself. For years I wanted more Buffy and now I've got it, and to make it better I'm really happy with the story. The story can unravel as slowly as it needs to for me, it just means I have more Buffy to digest for longer and I'm more than ok with that.

For me It's a case of weeks of wait, only to take, what, ten minutes to read the thing? A brief flurry of interest, and then another huge gap. To make matters worse the story itself often fails to engage me, so all in all it just doesn't seem worth the wait somehow.


If we're honest, taking a primary interest in the bona fide scoobies is the subversive act in the fandom at this point -

Nah.

MaverickKing
08-07-08, 04:04 AM
I love Season Eight, personally. For people that complain the comics are too different, it's a different medium. If Whedon had an unlimited budget on the show, imagine what could have happened!

Personally, I like Buffy going into the grey area. Moral ambiguity is always great stuff for fiction and I'm anxious to see where it goes. I agree with Xander. International jewel thief is, side-bar, incredibly sexy.

I loved the Faith arc, as well as the standalones "The Chain", "Anywhere But Here" and "A Beautiful Sunset". The first four issues were a bit bleh - as are most of the Buffy season openers - but as with every season it gets better as time goes on. The "Wolves at the Gate" arc was again a bit gimmicky but extremely enjoyable. Buffy and Satsu was a natural progression, not something forced.

As for the new arc, "Time of Your Life", well, I'll have to read it before I make up my mind.

Koos
08-07-08, 10:26 AM
There's a reason that most of the people doing the reading and posting are primarily Xander and/or Willow fans, while the -- large -- differently-minded portion of the fandom has isolated itself at

I know that there are some Willowfans following the show, but only following to know what's going on and that's it. Xanderfans have left the show already during S6 and those who have followed it to the end, don't read the comics. They have lost all trust in Joss to treat Xander as how a (main) character should be treated.

IMO the fans who are following the comics are fans of the show, not of a character in particular.


the big retcons (notdead!Warren and Dracula/Xander being the worst offenders),

I would say that the immortal/Andrew thing is biggest recton so far.
But true: the retcons are very annoying.

Wolfie Gilmore
08-07-08, 01:02 PM
I would say that the immortal/Andrew thing is biggest recton so far.
But true: the retcons are very annoying.

I agree re retcons as a rule, but I LOVE the Andrew/Immortal retcon. In fact, it was the way I was reading the Girl in Question at the time... that Andrew was making stuff up. It's totally in character :D

EndersWrath
08-07-08, 01:21 PM
I agree re retcons as a rule, but I LOVE the Andrew/Immortal retcon. In fact, it was the way I was reading the Girl in Question at the time... that Andrew was making stuff up. It's totally in character :D

Agreed! I didn't mind that one at all, and thought it was a pretty awesome way to go about it. I liked how out of aaaaaall the season 8's done out there, no one ever thought about this. So kudos to Joss for originality at least :xd

The ones I have the biggest issue with is the Xander/Dracula one. I mean COME ON! Lets just take away what we got in terms of character development with Xander from Buffy vs Dracula (see 'No More Butt Monkey') .. that just peeves me.

As far as the Warren things goes ... I'm sure you can stretch it thin enough to make it work somehow :xd

KingofCretins
08-07-08, 01:21 PM
Personally, I think the largest portion of anti-Season 8, even anti-"After the Fall" sentiment, is disappointed 'shippers. Our own non-scientific polling suggests that about half the (online) fandom are Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike 'shippers. Now, on TV, at least half of these guys were pretty much always stuck with nothing to do, 'ship-wise. But after "Chosen" ended, a long stretch of years began in which the entire future of the Buffyverse existed in nothing but fanfic, most of which included 'ship friendly codas.

Now that the series is back, they are being told, as they have in TV seasons past, to sit on their hands, or that they may not even get what they want. The season itself isn't treating them any differently... but the long wait changed patience with the status quo considerably.

That's why I think you're finding more "Willow" or "Xander" fans happy with the season than "Angel" or "Spike" fans, because much, much more of those characters is defined by or wrapped up in their relationships with Buffy. And Season 8 and "After the Fall" aren't delivering for them.

I think the toughest retcon has been Dracula and Xander's friendship. The Immortal being a fake out? Just smiled and said "that makes more sense". Warren is back? Most of us had jumped immediately to "well, he must have been dead for a bit" assumption that Joss ultimately jumped on. In the case of Dracula and Xander being chums, there was really nothing in the background to make that sound like it made much sense. It *still* doesn't make much sense :)

sueworld
08-07-08, 01:21 PM
I know that there are some Willowfans following the show, but only following to know what's going on and that's it. Xanderfans have left the show already during S6 and those who have followed it to the end, don't read the comics. They have lost all trust in Joss to treat Xander as how a (main) character should be treated.

Have you met King of Cretins? :roll: He is Xander's Number one fan, and he's reading it.

Oh and I'm a Spangel, and still don't like the series much. :roll:

Thing is, I suspect those who were invested in finding out about certain Buffy relationships that where huge part of the TV show, or even 'little things' like how the characters got to where we find them now, have been severely disappointed with apparently little attempt on Joss's part to address that properly. I can't say I blame them either.

EndersWrath
08-07-08, 01:27 PM
Have you met King of Cretins? :roll: He is Xander's Number one fan, and he's reading it.

Oooooh! Can Sosa, KoC, and I have a battle for biggest Xander fan? I would soo fricken love that! :roll:

Though the [main] reason I have kept up with the comics is because they are now treating Xander with much more priority, like they did when he was head over heels for Buffy. ... wait is there a pattern here? Hints at a relationship this season, and Xander getting more "air" time. DING DING DING! :lol:

I almost gave up during Wolves at the Gate, simply because of the Xander/Drac interaction, but I held out and though I was annoyed that they basically did what they did with Xander at the end of 5.01 with him standing his ground, I was happy that they did it that way. Dracula be damned :p

Now I'm really really curious as to what is in store for him since 8.14/8.15 and 8.16. Nummy broodyness?

Wolfie Gilmore
08-07-08, 02:03 PM
Agreed! I didn't mind that one at all, and thought it was a pretty awesome way to go about it. I liked how out of aaaaaall the season 8's done out there, no one ever thought about this. So kudos to Joss for originality at least :xd

Well, we did one that had Andrew making up the fact that Buffy and the Immortal were dating, though not actually setting up a body double (more that the blonde girl was just some random and Andrew started the rumour). :D



The ones I have the biggest issue with is the Xander/Dracula one. I mean COME ON! Lets just take away what we got in terms of character development with Xander from Buffy vs Dracula (see 'No More Butt Monkey') .. that just peeves me.

I guess the fault lies with that comic that came before season 8 whose name escapes me. The way Dracula and Xander were in season 8 was great, I thought, and buttmonkey free!



As far as the Warren things goes ... I'm sure you can stretch it thin enough to make it work somehow :xd

I'm much more anti the inclusion of Warren at all (I find him dull now) than the retcon thing, cos I thought that was just a mistake (which the letter page appologised for). Warren and Amy are one of the things i'm not giving a big shit about in season 8 though. So over. Byeee! And yet, they keep coming back.

The missile was scary though.

litzie
08-07-08, 02:04 PM
I can't believe no one's done a "yay or neigh" joke after the last issue!!!

Well, I vote yay.

I've gone back and forth on the comics a bit, but generally I really enjoy them. Wolves at the Gate was BY FAR my favorite arc - it felt very buffy to me, the right mix of humor and action and plot and sadness...So far Time of Your Life seems ok, but is missing that crucial sparkle that Drew Goddard brought...but I still enjoy it. The plot now is carrying me through the parts that I don't love as much...I want to know what's going on with Willow, I want to know what the payoff is going to be with all Buffy's moral greyness...and I really want to see if Buffy and Xander get together! Not much of a shipper myself, for anyone, but I am intrigued by the potential between these two characters who've been going since the beginning, and I wanna see if it's going to actually happen.

Tom
08-07-08, 04:40 PM
I love Season 8, but I only voted for "liking it" because at one point the story got really slow. For me its the stand alone issues that let the serise down. There are just some aspects of the comic that go far to slow for me. Example, Amy and Warren. We have had to wait a whole year since they have appeared again. That in storytelling terms is ridiculous for me. I'll stick by the comics though, I just need it to pick up the pace.

Koos
08-07-08, 09:32 PM
Personally, I think the largest portion of anti-Season 8, even anti-"After the Fall" sentiment, is disappointed 'shippers. Our own non-scientific polling suggests that about half the (online) fandom are Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike 'shippers. Now, on TV, at least half of these guys were pretty much always stuck with nothing to do, 'ship-wise. But after "Chosen" ended, a long stretch of years began in which the entire future of the Buffyverse existed in nothing but fanfic, most of which included 'ship friendly codas
Now that the series is back, they are being told, as they have in TV seasons past, to sit on their hands, or that they may not even get what they want. The season itself isn't treating them any differently... but the long wait changed patience with the status quo considerably

That's why I think you're finding more "Willow" or "Xander" fans happy with the season than "Angel" or "Spike" fans, because much, much more of those characters is defined by or wrapped up in their relationships with Buffy. And Season 8 and "After the Fall" aren't delivering for them.
..

Like there are no Xander/Buffy fans, right, KoC? :) Seriously, from episode 1 on there have also been Buffy/Xander shippers and they NEVER got what they wanted. Has that stopped them watching the show? Probably some of them. Are Bander shippers still driven by hope? I don't think so.

The way Xander has been treated since S4 started is really bad. But since S6 that has stopped alot of Xanderfans from watching the show. Not the lack of Bander, but the lack of treating a character seriously.

Xanderfans who are still following it, are in it for the show. And everything Xander will get is a bonus.



I think the toughest retcon has been Dracula and Xander's friendship.

Toughest? Absolutely agree. But is the biggest recton? I doubt so.



Oooooh! Can Sosa, KoC, and I have a battle for biggest Xander fan? I would soo fricken love that! :roll:

Oh, none of you would win ;)


Though the [main] reason I have kept up with the comics is because they are now treating Xander with much more priority, like they did when he was head over heels for Buffy. ... wait is there a pattern here? Hints at a relationship this season, and Xander getting more "air" time. DING DING DING! :lol:

He gets more respect from the writers, just like all the main character do. To me that's still the biggest improvement. Like for example, the earlier seasons the death of Renee would have left unmentioned forever. With excuses of the likes: it didn't fit the plot because Xander needed to be happy. Or Scooby-time is too hard to write. Especially when they need to write something emotional for Xander. Some fans still think that Xander had to mourn more for Renee, but at least it has been mentioned. IMO this is good.
Anyway, I still don't think he gets that what a main character should get. It's not about what he has gotten, because that's excellent, but in the way they sell it: Wolves at the Gate was no Xander arc, while they tell us that it is a Xander-arc. It was no Xander arc, but it was an arc wherein Xander got that what you could expect from a main-character. The arc was mucy more about Dracula, than it was about Xander. And it was overshadowed by Buffy/Satsu. It also had alot of Buffy/Willow (no Xander/Willow bonding at all) bonding.


I almost gave up during Wolves at the Gate, simply because of the Xander/Drac interaction,

And you are Xander's biggest fan? ;)

Mollie
08-07-08, 11:49 PM
I don't know if I have posted on the new forums yet (i.e. these) however, I have been lurking alot due to my laziness and fear of being dreadfully ineloquent. However, I must speak out on my opinions of season eight; I love it. In fact, (now do not murder me,) I believe that season 8 is the best "season" in the entire series. Perhaps this is all due to my unadultered love of the comic medium; however, I also believe it has to do with the rich and unfolding plot. Twilight, for example, is a very interesting villian and is just as bada$$ as Glory and the mayor. For one he is so manipulative it's delicious! Everyone around Twilight believe that he is helping them out but it is so obvious that he is only out for himself and definatly has the power to do so. His patience is also mouth-watering, he has the power to kill Buffy but he is calculating and almost seems to be waiting for her to act in some way the will help him achieve his ultimate goals.

I also believe that the comic medium is a great way to separate the characters from the actors; now, do not get me wrong, I love the amazing actors... but the reason I love Joss is due to his amazing ability to create indivdual voices and even make buffy a force like spiderman or Batman who isn't just a person behind the actor. Batman isn't Val Kilmer, or Adam West, or even Christian Bale he is effing BATMAN and after the season eight comics I really believe that Buffy is character and not SMG. Once again I have nothing against SMG but Buffy is immortal now, she isn't an aging human. Same with all of the characters. I still love them just as much as I loved them when they were on TV but I can visualize them clearly now as characters just like I can invision characters such as Harry Potter, or even Hamlet. They all have their own individual voices and are seperate entities and I believe the season eight comics have captured all of them very beautifuly.

I fear I have rambled quite a bit which tends to be my ultimate flaw, along with my horrible spelling so I'm sorry to have bored anyone. I will get on to my list of likes and dislikes.

Likes:

1. The art. The art. The art!!

I myself am something of an artist, ahaha I guess a painter or sketcher. I'm not very good but it is somthing of a hobby of mine to critique art and wow Georges has really blown me away. While he does tend to add more lines in his pencils of the characters that have been portrayed by actors he really does bring Buffy and gang to life. He really made me fall in love with Renee (Sniff Sniff) and utterly loathe "Gigi" and while he does have hois faults (overly lined and poorly shaded Faith) he has ultimatly made the comics for me so thumbs up for Georges! :) As far as Jo goes... yes she is amazing and her covers are beautiful!! However, I would never want her for inside art because photo-realism in comics bothers me very very much (like Alex Ross in Kingdom Come) and I understand not everyone feels that way but I really believe Georges on the inside and Jo on covers is the perfect fit. I even like the guest artists that feature (don't even get me started on my love of karl moline.)

2. Xander

Um, wow. Xander, where have you been all of Buffy!! Even season two Xander, who is pure gold, can hardly compare to the deep, funny, grown-up, eye-less Xander of season eight. He has story!! Yay! Even Drac/Xander was interesting and he obviously got over his butt monkey days so Kudos to him!

3. Buffy isn't in High School anymore, nor is she trying to be.

Even today when BtVS is described the whole "monsters in high school" thing is brought up. Blah blah, yeah Buffy was great in high school but she is done with it, sorry. Buffy isn't irrationally in love, Willow isn't shy, and Xander isn't a loser anymore. They all grew up and changed just like everyone else and they keep fighting and growing. They're even out of Sunnyhell and Buffy isn't the only slayer in active duty. I definatly believe season eight is bringing us all out of the bubble of trying to relieve the quote on quote glory days. Buffy is really coming into her own now (ahaha I think she is starting to "bake".)

Dislikes

Boo I deleted my dislikes by accident and unfortunatly I have to run :(
I might post a bit more later.

RuFio
09-07-08, 03:24 AM
so far, it's pretty much a total Yay from me!
I've eagerly awaited EVERY upcoming comic for over a year now, so they're doing something right in my opinion.

The ONLY nay I've had so far was Warren! I like pretty much all of the fantasy stuff- giant dawn, centaur dawn, castles, fairies, trolls etc. But skinless Warren was just like...why!? He's still in the game though, so I'm hoping his story will impress me in the end. I thought bringing Amy back was great though.

On the issue of Season 8 being 'too fantasy'. Buffy was a show that had everything. Drama, action, comedy, horror AND fantasy. It was always a part of the show. I think the story playing out in comic makes it seem unbelievable to some. Granted -giant & centaur dawn might not work on the show; but you have to agree that if the budget allowed the show to do something like this, it would not have felt out of place story-wise whatsoever.If you ask people who've seen buffy once or twice what kind of show they think it is, I bet a lot would say fantasy. I like that the fantasy elements are in high gear! I am finding it all to be really enjoyable! I was just growing to really love that castle they've been holed up in and they had to go and get rid of it :/ But it does make me curious where the gang is headed next!

Someone also said that they felt like the season wasn't cohesive. Um, we're only on issue 16!! We aren't even halfway through the season! So far, the story seems VERY tight so I'm expecting a brilliant conclusion to season 8. Not hoping- expecting!

vampmogs
09-07-08, 03:51 AM
I agree that a lot of the people who aren't into the comics seem to be shippers of both Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike. I'd even go as far to say, and don't stake me for this, but a lot of them are Spuffy shippers. That or Spike fans, they're the people I see disliking the season the most from what I've encountered anyway. Probably because their favourite ship and character aren't in the series, whereas I think Buffy/Angel fans must be pretty much used to that since there's haven't been on the show since season 4. The majority of the people I have encountered seem to fall in this category I’ve found, not all are Spike/Spuffy shippers who don’t like season 8, and not all Spike/Spuffy shippers don’t dislike season eight, but in my personal experience I’ve found a lot do fall under that umbrella.

Curiouswolf
09-07-08, 04:16 AM
Would have voted "Like It" a couple of months ago, but lately I've been veering more into "Don't Like It" territory -- mostly because I just can't bring myself to care. Aside from Buffy, all my favourite characters are either spun off (Spike, Angel) or AWOL (Giles), and Buffy herself put me off when she started using someone who loved her for sex again, effectively erasing two seasons of character development. (There's a reason that most of the people doing the reading and posting are primarily Xander and/or Willow fans, while the -- large -- differently-minded portion of the fandom has isolated itself at LiveJournal or closed forums.) The snail-paced plot, the big retcons (notdead!Warren and Dracula/Xander being the worst offenders), the unlimited "budget" and the crackfic-esque scenes/developments (Giant Dawn, Mecha Dawn, Centaur Dawn, to name the obvious examples) all conspire to slacken the rules of the 'verse, to the point that I find it nearly unrecognizable. I guess my vision of the show does not correspond to what Joss's vision of the show would have been, without external factors (if the budget hadn't posed restrictions, if the network hadn't pushed for romances, if James Marsters or Emma Caulfield hadn't been good actors, if the network had been more receptive to concepts like bisexual!Buffy, if Willow could fly all the time, if they could use as many secondary characters as they wanted, etc.)

I have come to a big change of heart to season 8 after rereading "Anywhere But Here" and "A Beautiful Sunset", pondering "Identity Crisis," and thinking about Dollhouse concepts. I think I figured out who Twilight is and what the big "twist" is. If I'm right then Dracula/Xander and the presence of Warren makes sense at least thematically as well as Harth/Drusilla. And if I'm right about who Twilight's associates are then I can make a good guess at who the traitor and the mole are and who Xander's "hookup" is. I think it will be heart-breaking, piss off a lot of people among a lot of fan factions but it could be sexy and awesome. *crosses fingers*

NimNams
09-07-08, 04:36 AM
Well, aren't you a big tease. :-P

Curiouswolf
09-07-08, 06:27 AM
Well, aren't you a big tease. :-P

Well, I'm not sure if I am right *shrug*. I hope I am though.

Charles
09-07-08, 09:45 PM
As somone along the lines of Koos, I'm kind of apathetic towards the season. Xander (my previously stated favorite character) has yet to actually get a storyline this season and thus far seems to be playing the exact same role he did in the show, basically being used to get at Buffy or get a response from her in some form or fashion.

The Watcher
09-07-08, 10:35 PM
They should have stopped after the televised show for both Buffy and Angel. Buffy ended on a high, maybe not the best way it could have went out but at least most loose-ends were tied. Angel left a few things open still, such as the bs with everyone not trusting Angel and although this isn't relevant, the episode where that actor was supposed to be Buffy was a kick in the rear-end for us fans. We all know that isn't smg and for Buffy to be off with some randomer isn't so good considering Angel/Spike were the main guys in her life. I think in season 5 of Angel the writers became lazy once they knew there wouldn't be a continuation of the series. They ended it the way they originally intended to even if it wasn't the last season and some may argue and say, "it shows that angel will be fighting the good fight forever" and this shows this but to be honest I was disappointed with it. Oh well nothing is perfect and there were a lot of good times. / finishes post (one which was very off-topic at times!

litzie
10-07-08, 10:02 AM
As somone along the lines of Koos, I'm kind of apathetic towards the season. Xander (my previously stated favorite character) has yet to actually get a storyline this season and thus far seems to be playing the exact same role he did in the show, basically being used to get at Buffy or get a response from her in some form or fashion.

What about renee? Dracula? His interaction with Dawn? Personally it seems to me like Xander's had a big role in this season...

But also, here's what I don't get. I don't get why people watch/read/whatever purely for their favorite character. Surely Buffy as a whole must appeal to you! Willow is definitely my favorite character, but even if she randomly disappeared from the show I'd still watch! I mean I'd be disappointed, but I'd still watch, because the show as a whole is so much more than the sum of the individual characters for me.

vampmogs
10-07-08, 02:53 PM
But also, here's what I don't get. I don't get why people watch/read/whatever purely for their favorite character. Surely Buffy as a whole must appeal to you! Willow is definitely my favorite character, but even if she randomly disappeared from the show I'd still watch! I mean I'd be disappointed, but I'd still watch, because the show as a whole is so much more than the sum of the individual characters for me.

I agree, I feel the same way about shipping. Frankly I think it is dangerous to get so invested in only one area of the show, because you're basically setting yourself up for disappointment. And really, do you like the show or just that one specific thing about the show?

Personally though I think Xander’s got a fantastic arc this season. His best since Sunnydale High days/ season four days. He’s important, competent, quashed the butt monkey status for good, have a central relationship and now his own story involving the destruction of the castle.

Seriously if this had been seasons five- season seven with Buffy and Willow travelling to New York, it would have been an excuse for the writers to *not* give Xander any material except for a cameo appearance before they head off. The fact they’ve bothered to actually give him his own, and incredibly important story back at the headquarters, IMO shows the difference with this season for his character in comparison to others.

Nina
10-07-08, 03:24 PM
As a person who isn't in love with this season (not a hater either, I like it ...) ... I think that I've to defend myself with the whole favourite characters and favourite ship thing.

My favourite characters (Angel, Wesley and Cordy) left BtVS in season 3, so yes ... I'm more invested in Ats than in BtVS because my favourite characters are the main cast of Ats. But this is the case since season 4, and I will admit that I never loved the show anymore as much as in the highschool years, however I didn't stop enjoying it or did stop watching it.

For me it went wrong in season 5, where Buffy became colder, Xander less important and Willow started to be really powerfull. All those things could be very interesting but it never really happened, we got a cheap magic!crack storyline followed by one of the worst redemption storylines ever, Buffy became unlikable and it was too hard for me to keep caring about her, the same for Giles and Xander had nothing special to do. The last two seasons broke something, I can live with cheesy!demons and dumpster!sex, when the characters are likable or there should be a good story behind it (Like Wesley's storyline in Ats season 3) ... I missed both and I still watched it to find out how it would end but I stopped caring about the characters and gave up that there would be a good storyline or character development in the series.

Season 8 is in much ways better than season 6/7 because Xander has a role, Willow is finally on a journey to explore her magic and Buffy is likable again. But season 6 and 7 are still in my head, season 8 has a lot to prove before I want to say that the writers are back in their season 1-4 mode and I don't really care about the characters anymore, but it has nothing to do with the departure of my favourite characters or the fact that Bangel is not everywhere on the pages ... the writers screwed up in the last two seasons and it takes time to heal, at least for me. I guess that people who have Willow, Buffy or Xander as their favourite character(s), have less problems with accepting and liking them than people who have other favourite characters. But to paint them away as people who can only enjoy a series when their favourite characters are all over the screen/pages ... is not really fair. Season 8 doesn't feel like the tv-series and if your favourite character is not part of the story ... it can be less interesting ... especially because the main characters had so many badly written storylines in the last season(s) which made them less likable.

Of course, I can't talk for other people ... but I don't think that a lot of people stopped liking it only because their favourite characters left the show. It is a factor, of course ... you are more invested in your favourite character than in others ... but to give that as the only reason is not true ... at least in my case.

Mollie
10-07-08, 08:39 PM
I would also like to adress the "alot Spike or Angel fans aren't that in to the new season" point that has been bouncing around this thread. While I agree that there is a subset of the fandom does not like Buffy season eight because of the lack of favorite characters and especially due to the lack of Buffy/Spike and Buffy/Angel. However, I disagree that all or even most Angel and Spike fans (or Spuffy Bangel shippers) have completely dropped the season. I think the comic format is more of a barrier then the lack of ships in most cases which I believe is silly but sadly going to happen. I myself am a huge Angel fan, though I believe Bangel to be sickening, and I have definatly been into season eight. I also adore Spike though I really grew to love him in Ats season five.

Once again I do agree that some people might not enjoy the lack of Spike but in my experience people either don't think of season eight as a canon thing or cannot handle the transition into comics.

vampmogs
11-07-08, 10:04 AM
Like I said it wasn't always the case, but IMO is with some people at least. Of course having your favourite character/s absent in a season will effect your enjoyment, the same way my love of Buffy/Xander/Willow has amped up my love for the season even more.

But there's bound to be some people who make an effort of not liking the season just because their favourite ship or character isn't in the series any longer. I've seen at least one person state in on these forums, and another admit they may be being too hard on the season resulting from the absence of their favourite character over on Live Journal. So the scenario does exist, even if doesn't apply to everyone.

I think that’s unfair personally because it’s not giving the season a fair chance. The same way it’d be unfair to have judged season 4 harshly regardless of its own merits just because Angel or Cordy are no longer in it. The same way I think it’s unfair to judge season eight badly just because Spike and Anya aren’t in it. Not everyone does this, but IMO there must be some out there.

sueworld
11-07-08, 10:25 AM
Huh, I must have neeb on a hiding to nowhere them as 3 of my favorites were nolonger in it. Yeah of course Spike and Angel were destined to be a 'no show' right from the start, but Giles too, and killing off Ethan? *sigh*

Yeah supposedly Giles is to return at some point, but I think It's a bit of a case of too little, too late for me unless something absolutely wonderful turns up. :roll:

The weird part about it is as I've said on numerous occasions I've collected comics all my life, and yet I've found the Buffy comic to be the one I've had the most difficulty with.

vampmogs
11-07-08, 10:37 AM
Personally I'm reserving judgement on a few things until the season is actually *finished.* As for example, if there was enough Giles, if Buffy's arc was a good one ect, Dawn's transformations ect. But especially things like how much Giles appears. For all we know he could turn up after 'Time of Your Life' and never be absent again until the season ends, it's just too early to call.

By the way I count the season, which coincides with darkhorses advertisement of 'No Future For You' as 'one episode', we're only seven episodes in. That's far too early for me to make final judgements on anything major that can change when we're still so early on into a season.

Of course I'll make judgements on how I think things are going, as in what I've liked so far, but in terms of wether or not a character showed up or not ect, it's just too early for me to comment. That reflection on the season comes after the whole thing is finished and I’m able to analyse and digest it fully as a whole, the same way I pretty much did with the other seasons.

Charles
11-07-08, 08:52 PM
What about renee? Dracula? His interaction with Dawn? Personally it seems to me like Xander's had a big role in this season...


Dracula wasn't his arc. It ws Dracula's arc IMO and it was used more or less to again affect and provoke Buffy and her relationship with Satsu.

See also, Xander's aborted wedding being used to prop up and further affect Buffy and Spike's relationship in Season 6.

Xander hasn't had a story-arc yet this season. Even in his interaction with Dawn, that's more about her then him at this point. Now I'm hopefull that if they continue with the recent trend of AngstXander, that it does lead to a story arc even if it means turning him into DarKXander or some such because it would new development for the character.





But also, here's what I don't get. I don't get why people watch/read/whatever purely for their favorite character. Surely Buffy as a whole must appeal to you! Willow is definitely my favorite character, but even if she randomly disappeared from the show I'd still watch! I mean I'd be disappointed, but I'd still watch, because the show as a whole is so much more than the sum of the individual characters for me.

speaking for myself, I don't know who these characters really are anymore.

Buffy's a girl who wants to live a normal life that has been boy crazy all her life. Except now she's into experimenting and pretty much forced every other possible potential in the world into Slayer status.

Willow was a shy-bookish nerd girl with big hopes and dreams but still somewhat frail and shy. Now she's the uber-witch that can ressurrect dead people, deal with angry gods, nearly end the world.

Xander's the only character I find that has remained the same at his basic core level even in the comics and he's still the most easy to relate to character IMO. He's the guy that follows along with his friends, staying in because of his heart is devoted to them rather then to himself.

The rest of the characters? Eh... if they're not stereotypes like the feme Fatale (Hi Faith, Gwen, Satsu?) then they're just not themselves anymore.

AllenGray
12-07-08, 12:19 AM
Xander has always had an arc. His arc may not have been as pronounced or convoluted as Buffy's or Willow's but it is present and is potentially the most natural and fascinating character arc. Xander very gradually matures from the overly and awkwardly sexual child of season one into an uncertain young adult trying to reconstruct his social role and then a self-possessed construction worker comfortable with his identity. Many people accuse Xander of fluctuating between butt-monkey and non-butt-monkey status to fit plot constraints, which I concede he does, but the progression and retrogression of his Butt-Monkey status ultimately led him to become the competent Leader of the Scotland Slayer squad. There is a reason Buffy refers to him as her Watcher, the word has numerous connotations in the Buffyverse, the most pertinent being adulthood.

Also, the characters if presently acting in unexpected ways have hardly deliquesced into stereotypes. Charles you claim that Faith, Satsu and Gwen have been reduced to Femme Fatales and while admittedly they fit the etymological caveats ( They are fatal and are presumably endowed with female parts) they lack almost all of the archetypal chracteristics of a Femme Fatale. Femme Fatales do not feel remorse, do not doubt their ability to perform a task, do not question past choices, and do not fear their power. A Femme Fatale is by archetypal definition a character introduced to attract and through that attraction threaten a Hero manipulating or corrupting. They are dangerous only because they attract the Hero and once the Hero has conquered his pants-beast they cease to be dangerous. Given Joss Whedon's general views about Female empowerment I don't believe it's possible for him to allow any Buffy character to assume that role.

I'm sorry if I seemed combative but for some reason I'm very precise about designating Femme Fatales. I once argued for almost three hours about the fatal femaleness of Bridget O'Shoughnessy in The Maltese Falcon. It's a thing.

Charles
12-07-08, 12:55 AM
I don't think Xander's had anything resembling a season long story arc since S2. Everything since then has been erratic and done in spurts. He didn't have one at all in S4, that was basically the Buffy and Willow show.

S5, S6, and S7 he had minimal story arcs that lasted maybe 2-3 episodes, the most notable of which IMO was the Wedding that instead of being just about Xander and Anya, became another thing to pile at the feet of Buffy and Spike.

And the progression, regression is happening again in S8. he starts out in charge of the Scotland squad but as the season has unfolded, he's again been relegated to the sidelines. He didn't even accompany Buffy and Willow when they went to see the Demon of Future Plot points/holes. That's somethng the Xander of the early would have done. The one act that cements his sideline/also-ran status was the 'kill' of Toru.

That was a decided joke if there ever was one. I know some people have said that because he was that killed Toru, it's okay. But it's not, what mattered the most was the part leading up to the kill where Dracula with little or no effort takes Toru down. That's the important thing. See Xander's big Showdown with Jack O'Toole. Werewolf Oz got the kill but Xander gained the most out of that confrontation because he stood up to and backed O'Toole down.

That's what was lacking in the Dracula arc.

As far as the femme Fatale, I would disagree with that and point to the examples demostrated by Catwoman and other comic 'bad girls'. Catwoman is both a hero and a villian depending on DC's mood at the time, but she doesn't change who she is at her core. She's a very sexy, surprisingly effective thief with a soft spot for animals and Batman. Now we look at Faith, who's still the same character she was. Only now she has a murder conviction on her record. That doesn't change the fact that Faith is still mostly a good person and fights the good fight.

Now as far as the corrupting effect of the traditional femme fatale presents, it's still in effect in Joss's works. It's just that Joss's only known story-telling method is of corruption then redemption. Faith was corrupted, then redeemed but she still retains that corrupting aura and her fight against that is part of redeeming process.

I don't see Joss as being into female empowerment. If anything I see the opposite, he's into enslavement of both genders. Tearing at what makes female characters women while ripping apart his male characters to make the women look better. I look at James Cameron and I see someone's into female empowerment. I look at Joss Whedon and I see someone who is not what they claim to be.

vampmogs
12-07-08, 05:33 AM
He didn't even accompany Buffy and Willow when they went to see the Demon of Future Plot points/holes.

Nope, but he stayed and looked after *his* squad and *his* castle. It's not as if hasn't got a story this arc now he's been left at the castle, his arc is shaping up to be just as compelling as the Buffy/Fray or Willow/Kennedy one, the castle just exploded, that's HUGE and Xander has to deal with it all on his own.

It wouldn't have made sense in the story for all of the Scoobs to leave the castle with their squad still there, someone had to stay behind and they chose Xander.


That was a decided joke if there ever was one. I know some people have said that because he was that killed Toru, it's okay. But it's not, what mattered the most was the part leading up to the kill where Dracula with little or no effort takes Toru down. That's the important thing. See Xander's big Showdown with Jack O'Toole. Werewolf Oz got the kill but Xander gained the most out of that confrontation because he stood up to and backed O'Toole down.

I personally think it's a fine way to do it. Logically speaking Toru was a vampire with super powers Xander does not have. Yes Xander's taken down vampires before but never has he been a match for the vampires in charge, remember this vampire beat Buffy aside as well. It wouldn't have been realistic for him to be able to do so. It's the same kind of complaints I heard some people say about Xander not going into the portal to rescue Willow with Buffy and Satsu. Xander was demonstrated to be the most level-headed and mature he's ever been in that instance, when despite how much he wants to he knows he isn't a slayer and that they need to play it smart about rescuing Willow. Same with Toru IMO, they worked his story in realistically and he was still represented incredibly well.

AllenGray
12-07-08, 02:58 PM
Charles, do you believe Buffy has compromised her femininity? I've always felt that Joss Whedon's goal has been equality between the sexes, precisely as he professes it though his methods tend to be ambiguous. Rather than saying "A Woman could be President, look at this woman her Critical reading scores are significantly higher than this Boy's and she is more emotionally mature than him at this stage in life," Joss Whedon attempts to humanize and diversify, all of his characters and his female characters especially have a distinct voice. They are unique and do not all subscribe to any one set of characteristics that might be said to be feminine. In individualizing his female characers Joss Whedon promotes individual strengths and weaknesses, which in turn lead to recognition of these characters as people, and not just women.

The statement is general and I don't have any precise textual support because it's 8:53 and my mind is set to Bagel but it is what I consider Joss Whedon's feminist mission, one which seems effective. But the strength of your response is intriguing and I'd like to know why you doubt Whedon and if you could provide examples of "Enslavement" that would be excellent. If I sound sarcastic, I don't mean to. Everything I type sounds sarcastic when I reread it. I miss vocalizing.

Charles
12-07-08, 07:06 PM
Nope, but he stayed and looked after *his* squad and *his* castle. It's not as if hasn't got a story this arc now he's been left at the castle, his arc is shaping up to be just as compelling as the Buffy/Fray or Willow/Kennedy one, the castle just exploded, that's HUGE and Xander has to deal with it all on his own.

The castle explosion does look like the start of a story arc for Xander which I'm happy to see. I'm hoping this one actually features and revolves around him and not Dawn as has been hinted at thus far.



It wouldn't have made sense in the story for all of the Scoobs to leave the castle with their squad still there, someone had to stay behind and they chose Xander.

Making sense has never been a strong suit in the Jossverse though. Remember the eating chips while watching Riley?



I personally think it's a fine way to do it. Logically speaking Toru was a vampire with super powers Xander does not have. Yes Xander's taken down vampires before but never has he been a match for the vampires in charge, remember this vampire beat Buffy aside as well. It wouldn't have been realistic for him to be able to do so. It's the same kind of complaints I heard some people say about Xander not going into the portal to rescue Willow with Buffy and Satsu. Xander was demonstrated to be the most level-headed and mature he's ever been in that instance, when despite how much he wants to he knows he isn't a slayer and that they need to play it smart about rescuing Willow. Same with Toru IMO, they worked his story in realistically and he was still represented incredibly well.

Again, I disagree. Look at Giles and what he attempted in the wake of finding Jenny's body. Now he didn't succeed in his attempt and almost got himself killed or wors. But he reacted logically, realistically and completely in character. That's what Xander should have done. Even if he didn't succeed in killing Toru, him making the attempt was the point as it was with O'Toole.

It's not about killing Toru as revenge for Renee, it was about Xander taking back his role a full fledged, believeable fighter. Something that disappeared post S3 and when David Greenwalt left the show to go work on Angel.

Allen, I think Joss has been very effective in spreading his message but I wouldn't call his message 'feminism' or female empowerment. The most empowering act I feel a person can have is freedom or choice. Yet he systematically introduces and then strips that away from his characters at regular intervals. Buffy wanted to be a normal girl who led a normal life. She hated being 'Chosen', she just wanted to a normal life. Yet he's systematically stripped and ripped that away from her. Forcing her to embrace her calling, "I'm the Slayer', etc...

Look at how the relationship between her and the other characters unfolds over the course of the season. In the beginging, everything seems fine. Then they drift apart, drift apart, drift some more, then have a Eureka moment where they apparently reconcile their differences, unite and save the world. And the cycle repeats over and over again.

That's not giving a character freedom or growth or least of all empowerment in my eyes. That's just lengthing the chain that keeps them anchored to the ground. And he does it with all of them. Willow has suffered IMO worse then Buffy has because she's his favorite character, rewritten and destroyed since her high school days to suit his fancy.

I'm sorry if I'm not adequately explaining this better as I lack the words and perhaps the ability to be as articulate as I need to be but I just don't think he is what he says he is. His work and results to me, offer up contradictory evidence and suggests if anything he's much more like those things and people he dislikes. As female empowerment goes, I tend to think something like Kim Possible is a better example then Buffy ever will be. That's JMO though.

Zeppo224
13-07-08, 01:40 AM
What about renee? Dracula? His interaction with Dawn? Personally it seems to me like Xander's had a big role in this season...

But also, here's what I don't get. I don't get why people watch/read/whatever purely for their favorite character. Surely Buffy as a whole must appeal to you! Willow is definitely my favorite character, but even if she randomly disappeared from the show I'd still watch! I mean I'd be disappointed, but I'd still watch, because the show as a whole is so much more than the sum of the individual characters for me.



Hey all, delurking for the first time to provide one possible answer to Litzie's question. I know for me personally I started watching the show in the beginning and I liked pretty much all the characters, although Xander quickly became my favorite. The thing is even though at first you enjoy the show and everyone in it, as you see your favorite character begin to be marginalized it kind of efefcts the way you view the other characters

I guess you can think of it this way. Imagine you have a child, or a very close friend or loved one who tries out for this play. You see them practicing and experience first hand just how good they can do if given the chance. But when tryouts come the role is given to someone else. Now you may go and still watch the play but for most people there will always be at least a part of you that won't be able to think about anything else other then how good your friend/loved one would be in the role and how unfair it is that they didn't get it.

Childish a bit I guess, and I'm in no way speaking for anyone else. Thats kind of just how I feel personally.

As a Xander and B/X fan from the very beginning, I've seen plenty of missed opportunities and it does wind up affecting the way you look at the show as a whole.

I have to agree with charles that at the moment, despite appearances, there is no arc for Xander. And even though there are signs that there might be one coming, I know from experience that that in no way means he will actually get anything other then a small side arc.

DigitalLeonardo
13-07-08, 02:51 AM
I am not a big fan of season 8, but I am keeping up with it just for the fact that it IS Buffy the Vampire Slayer and I did like alot of the comics during the series.

Personally I just don't see this as Buffy, it doesn't feel like Buffy and is just really random half of the time. I don't think Joss is putting the same effort into the story as he did in the series and it clearly shows.

Luckly the Faith arc rocked, and I hope the Fray arc is alot better then the Japanese arc, though... the first issue wasn't mind blowing... Dawn...

Koos
13-07-08, 02:25 PM
Dracula wasn't his arc. It ws Dracula's arc IMO and it was used more or less to again affect and provoke Buffy and her relationship with Satsu.

Exactly. And it is in Xander's arc that a Buffy/Satsu arc is played out, something that outshadows that what is suppose to be Xander's arc.

It's about the way they are selling it. Xander is a main character. He has also been for seven seasons. How come that a main character hasn't had an arcline for the last three seasons. Joss has actually said that they didn't have an arc for him to Nick Brendon at the beginning of S5. Yet, they still credited him as a main character. And it went wrong in S4. Where he was treated as the joke of the writers.

S7 is a different, because he was finally treated as a serieus character in the way he was characterized and this is followed up in S8, more explicitely. But in S7 he didn't have an arcline either. This was also been told by the writers, yet, he still remained credited as a main character. But to see Xander characterization in S7 you need a microscope. He barely had lines and screentime. So, it seems more like he got this positive characterization because he didn't have an arcline and because he didn't have enough screentime to get bashed properly.

The problem is that they don't take him seriously and nor do they with his fans. If they don't have an arcline, if he's not important enough, than be honest and tell his fans. Cordelia was the only reason why I watched AtS. I wasn't pissed that she was written out of it, because they told so. The with Giles in S7. He was a guest-star, so everything he gets is a bonus.

But when gueststars like Wood and Andrew got more than a main-character like Xander, something is very wrong and to me it feels like betrayel.

I went into S8 with the knowledge of S7: Xander being a main-character means squat. And everything he gets is a bonus. I don't expect an arcline, and I was surprised to see that, while in character, he got a leadership position. I went into S8 for the show. And that's something I can enjoy very much right now. In that light, I think that what Xander has had is fantastic. But it is NOT an arcline for Xander. He's put in a succesful leadership position, but we that proces was never shown. He's coupled with Renee, but that was about Renee and not Xander. And Xander/Dracula was about Dracula. Sure, there was the little sidenote that Xander, finally (he really gets boring), stood up to Dracula, but that's what it was: a sidenote.
He's not on even on the cover of the arc, Buffy and Dracula are.

We'll see what he gets in this arc. And let's hope that the one great thing he has been given in the last four and half season, stopping DarkWillow, isn't neglected by Kennedy actually stopping DarkWillow like it means something.

KingofCretins
13-07-08, 02:50 PM
How can it have been about Renee and not Xander when Renee isn't around for it to pay off, but Xander is? Really, the line keeps moving back and back and back for Season 8 to be worthy, it seems.

You probably won't find a *ton* of fans online that are more invested in the Xander character than I am, and I think "Wolves at the Gate" is a great arc for him. It was arguably his best arc, since it was, at long last, the purging of "buttmonkey" punchline from his storylines.

Koos
13-07-08, 05:31 PM
How can it have been about Renee and not Xander when Renee isn't around for it to pay off, but Xander is? Really, the line keeps moving back and back and back for Season 8 to be worthy, it seems.

We see Renee's character getting fleshed out during the arc. We see her death through her eyes. We only see Xander crying with her while being in mortal danger. What's the arc in that? Yeah, sure we see him dealing with it in a proper way. But there's nothing more to it than normal behaviour. We don't see characterization, we don't actual see him deal with it, talk about it, learn from it. It's more than what he got then with Anya's death, but it is hardly an arc.


You probably won't find a *ton* of fans online that are more invested in the Xander character than I am, and I think "Wolves at the Gate" is a great arc for him. It was arguably his best arc, since it was, at long last, the purging of "buttmonkey" punchline from his storylines.

What's that for an arcline? We already saw that after The Zeppo, we saw that end the end of episode 5.1, and we saw it when he stopped DarkWillow and we saw it at the end of Potential. We also saw it when he knew he wasn't the right person to go along with Buffy rescuing Willow in issue 4. Was that moment an arcline?

That's not an arc, it's a moment for Xander at most. A moment we have seen many times before and this was one the weakest of them. Don't get me wrong, I like it when Xander gets his moments where he realizes he's not the buttmonkey, but it has been done and done again, it's time for him to actually get an arc. An arc in which he's more that support guy. An arc in which he can be important to the team more than just being important to Buffy, Willow and Dawn.

AllenGray
13-07-08, 10:07 PM
Charles, thank you for your explanation it was both insightful and not obnoxious which I'm not accustomed to but I'm still going to disagree. Buffy does have several messages that apparently contradict the notion of empowerment Joss Wheon claims is his directive, but if you consider these and Joss Whedon's established existentialist-absurdist tendencies these messages actually reinforce the idea of empowerment. When Buffy embraces her Slayerness, apart from the Watcher's council, her friends, and family in "Anne" it's an existential choice to define herself, Buffy is no longer Slayer because she must be or is coerced into being the Salyer but because she chooses to use her power and define herself in relation to her power. There is an essay in Serenity Found, an anthology edited by Jane Espenson that discusses this moment and Buffy's condition, as well as River's and Willow's. Essentially the author establishes that Buffy's power is forced on her to instrumentalize and subdue her but in denouncing the Watcher's council she reclaims that power which Joss compares to the womb and what he calls womb envy. When Buffy reclaims her power from the watcher's council and society ( i.e social expectations placed upon her by her friends and family) it is meant to represent woman reclaiming their freedom of choice regarding their bodies and then defining it with that choice. I've added some of my own inferences, mostly the idea that the choice is existential, but the general idea of Buffy not accepting but choosing her Slayerness is shared with that author,parts were inspired also by your post Charles. So ultimately You're right Joss Whedon is not strictly feminist in his works and his aesthetic ( Which tends to be bloody, painful, and, you know big in the Sophie's Choice way) confuses it but Buffy I maintain is an appropriate role model and powerful woman for every season but mid-to-late seventh, wherein she has a mustache and cigar and dictatorial fez and probably a ranch somewhere in the midwest.

And to adress the varying degrees and methodologies of Xander love, Xander I believe is a magnificent character precisely for the subtlety of his evolution and role within the group, a role which is general and not limited to Buffy, Dawn, Willow or Renee. Xander is the one who understands, who comforts and who, when lacking Buffy, leads. In seven years Xander has developed a maturity and personal understanding that makes him essential to the Scoobies and asset to the many Slayers at the Headquarters. He doesn't need a central arc because he is a character defined by his lack of dramatic arc. I believe Joss Whedon says in the commentary for "Lessons" that Xander is responsible for maintaining the group, for understanding the people involved and while it would be interesting to break Xander, in doing so one would cause a Beatle sized group calamity. Plus, Dark Xander might lose his Puppy-dog eye quality. Puppy dog meaning trusting and sweet, and not subserviant or incontinent.

Charles
14-07-08, 03:10 AM
That's a very well written and thought out post Allen.

I can understand and appreciate your point of view and opinion of things as different as it is from my own.

But I'm sorry I simply cannot agree with it at all.

To me when you have to go to the lengths and depths that Jane and others have trying to justify or explain what was going with regards to the show, I think there's been a massive fundamental error in creating the message and in communicating said message.

Buffy embracing her slayerness is fine as an example but Jane attempting to explain in great detail why when she did it at one point and not at another is a major indication that they, the creative people, failed in their task of communicating why she is doing so. I think it's great that she and others care so passionately about the subjec that they're willing to craft detailed and well thought arguments to support but again I go back to the question "Well, why did you make it so complicated in the first place?"

I get that real life is complicated and they were shooting for a realistic take on problems and life but in a sci-fi/horror show like Buffy, people watch it because it takes them out of their real world into a fantasy world. The metaphors even bear this out in the early years of High school being hell as sigs suggest. But later on, it became some complicated mess that people started rejecting.

And I refuse to call anything Joss resembling a champion of female empowerment, I find he's arguable the greatest wolf in Slayer's clothing that there's been in the past ten years. Hence I wouldn't consider him a role model in anything other then spin doctoring since that's his obvious strength.

As for Xander, I can't help but wonder if Joss really means all these things he says to make people and fans feel better because his actions as Koos points out, indicate a very different picturethen the one you're painting.

vampmogs
14-07-08, 10:16 AM
Making sense has never been a strong suit in the Jossverse though. Remember the eating chips while watching Riley?

Yeah but I don't think that means we can fault it when it does make sense. Which in this case it does, logically it'd be foolish to leave the castle with the slayers still in it. Someone with experience had to watch over it, and since it's Xander's squad he stayed behind.


Again, I disagree. Look at Giles and what he attempted in the wake of finding Jenny's body. Now he didn't succeed in his attempt and almost got himself killed or wors. But he reacted logically, realistically and completely in character. That's what Xander should have done. Even if he didn't succeed in killing Toru, him making the attempt was the point as it was with O'Toole.

I disagree. Whilst I think Giles reacted like a lot of human men would have, I saw Xander's actions as just as believable even if they aren't the same. Xander is far more level headed than he was in earlier seasons when he would have rushed into battle. We learnt this from 'The Long Way Home' when he knows his strengths and weaknesses, he wanted to go in and save his best friend but he knew Buffy needed another girl with him. This is just another extension of that IMO. Him rushing and trying to kill Toru and getting his ass kicked, though understandable, wouldn't have fit in with his character's growth this season.


It's not about killing Toru as revenge for Renee, it was about Xander taking back his role a full fledged, believeable fighter. Something that disappeared post S3 and when David Greenwalt left the show to go work on Angel.

I don't think it would have been believable for him to take on Toru personally. He wasn't just any vamp and Xander's still a normal jo, even if he's very brave and can handle stake fodder vamps. And just from my personal perspective, I thought it was a lot more chilling and sad to see him calmly walk up to Toru and dust him rather than an all out brawl with the vamp which would have resulted in Xander either loosing, or winning but with most likely getting knocked around hard. It would have broke the sombre mood for me.

Wolfie Gilmore
14-07-08, 12:46 PM
Xander very gradually matures from the overly and awkwardly sexual child of season one into an uncertain young adult trying to reconstruct his social role and then a self-possessed construction worker comfortable with his identity.

Interesting choice of words, “child” – but you’re right. I sometimes forget they are essentially children (in the sense of not of age, at least, and sometimes in terms of their behaviour too) at the start – Giles calls them (or the Sunnydale Highschool graduating class) that in season 3, when he’s talking about the class protector award: how children en masse can be gracious.

Anyway, yes, Xander’s transition from boy to man is a slow and interesting journey, one that’s not always with the moving forward like a shark. Sometimes he moves forward, sometimes back – as so many people do. When Anya yells at him in season 6, telling him he’s a scared little boy making jokes… she’s not entirely full of it. But that doesn’t negate his character’s growth or change. Maturity is an odd thing; people don’t always grow in a consistent way. Sometimes pockets of ourselves remain childlike while other parts grow.

Erm…not in a gross way.


Many people accuse Xander of fluctuating between butt-monkey and non-butt-monkey status to fit plot constraints, which I concede he does, but the progression and retrogression of his Butt-Monkey status ultimately led him to become the competent Leader of the Scotland Slayer squad.

We see this back forward back hokey pokey dance of growth quite clearly at the end of season 3 (which I have just been rewatching, so, uppermost in my mind). On the one hand, he is needily eager for virtual snausages of praise – “I’m still key guy, right?” – but at the same time, he leads a cohort of the Sunnydale students into battle. He gets it done.



Allengray said: Also, the characters if presently acting in unexpected ways have hardly deliquesced into stereotypes. Charles you claim that Faith, Satsu and Gwen have been reduced to Femme Fatales and while admittedly they fit the etymological caveats ( They are fatal and are presumably endowed with female parts) they lack almost all of the archetypal chracteristics of a Femme Fatale. Femme Fatales do not feel remorse, do not doubt their ability to perform a task, do not question past choices, and do not fear their power.

Angel’s a riper universe for femme fatales, given that the hero is Noirier than Buffy. Darla, for example, is a semi-successful example (though in the end, Angel doesn’t lose his soul with her, in fact, she puts him back on the path he feels he’s supposed to be on…so…well, she’s a bit rubbish in the fatale department, isn’t she? Even if she did used to “do this professionally”).

That actress in the Angel ep where she wants him to turn her comes closer. Though, she doesn’t so much attract the hero as set his protector mojo in motion. That’s Angel’s weakness – he wants to save the pretty ladies rather than bed them. It’s his conscience that they lead him by, not his (heh!) pants-beast. Perhaps he keeps his conscience in his pants though (well, he does lose his soul/conscience after sex…).

But that’s off topic. Way off topic. I’m taking us into a stratospheric orbit around topic. Maybe even reaching escape velocity away from topic…returning to earth now.



Given Joss Whedon's general views about Female empowerment I don't believe it's possible for him to allow any Buffy character to assume that role.

Buffy, far more than AtS, is not a universe conducive to the FF. Now, moving back to season 8, it is the case that comics are historically (or, you’re Frank Miller, currently) a medium in which female roles have been much more about the external upholstery and less about the inner life (cf the gigantic pair of cantilevered breasts that adorns many heroines for whom the writing is terrible and the costumes are form-fitting).

However, that has and is changing, and BtVS season 8 is far from exploitative in terms of T&A. Even though people might complain that the lesbian sex was a ratings grabber, we hardly got to see any actual sex. This was no Lost Girls (though that’s a different ballgame… explicitly and unashamedly intended as porn, but literary porn. And somehow, cos it’s Alan Moore, he can get away with that :D).

Giving characters complex inner lives, whatever their gender, remains key in season 8. Apart from poor Dawnie a lot of the time. And Andrew. But he’s always just awesome.

Anyway, season 8 has not brought on the female stereotypes. British stereotypes, yes (Gigi’s accent and diction and attitudes…gah!)



And the progression, regression is happening again in S8. he starts out in charge of the Scotland squad but as the season has unfolded, he's again been relegated to the sidelines.

That’s not true at all – he was “key guy” (to quote his season 3 self) in the Dracula mission. All part of saving the day. His squadron’s just been destroyed, but that only promises more central-to-the-plotiness.



But it's not, what mattered the most was the part leading up to the kill where Dracula with little or no effort takes Toru down. That's the important thing. See Xander's big Showdown with Jack O'Toole. Werewolf Oz got the kill but Xander gained the most out of that confrontation because he stood up to and backed O'Toole down.

But the thing is, Xander’s plotlines are often about the fact that he’s NOT the action hero. There are other kinds of heroes. You can be central to the plot without being the one who does the killing.



Now as far as the corrupting effect of the traditional femme fatale presents, it's still in effect in Joss's works. It's just that Joss's only known story-telling method is of corruption then redemption. Faith was corrupted, then redeemed but she still retains that corrupting aura and her fight against that is part of redeeming process.

Being corrupted yourself (by someone else or by your own flaws) is the hero’s role, not the femme fatale’s. It’s a role that has no real sense of agency on its own behalf…while Faith always has complex motives at work. She’s not just out to corrupt Buffy in season 3, she wants more than that. Some of her wants to BE Buffy, or be accepted by her… other parts of her rebel against that and crave the darkness and the pain, because it means you don’t have to take responsibility like you do when you’re the good guy. Faith’s corruption is her own corruption, largely. She’s a corruptee rather than a corrupter…though she’s a self-corrupter to a degree. :D

You might call her a revisionist femme fatale, who contains both the seeds of the “scarlet woman” and the hero to be corrupted. But that takes things out of the simple, stereotyped character constructions.


I don't see Joss as being into female empowerment.

Well, I think his exploration of ideas of empowerment is not without its problems… but he’s certainly into female agency, creating strong female characters who have their own complex inner lives and who are not just there to bolster the male characters. Though I must say, Firefly and Angel are weaker in this regard. (Cordy in season 5, coming back to kiss Angel onto the right path…bleurgh).

However, Btvs – whether this current season, or past seasons – rarely allows characters (aside from very minor ones) to play purely “fluffer” roles to other characters. Although Tara is a bit of a wet blanket sometimes, she does have her own life, and asserts herself against Willow (even if she takes her back…silly girl).



If anything I see the opposite, he's into enslavement of both genders. Tearing at what makes female characters women while ripping apart his male characters to make the women look better. I look at James Cameron and I see someone's into female empowerment. I look at Joss Whedon and I see someone who is not what they claim to be.

What makes a woman a woman? Who’s to say? I think any female character is just one exploration of what a woman can be, same as any male character. You can’t sum up femaleness or maleness, except in biological terms…and even those can be ambiguous (transgender, physical variations…a woman after a mastectomy is missing secondary sexual characteristics but that makes her no less a woman – perhaps even MORE consciously female, because you’re caused to reflect more on your female identity?)

Anyway, Joss writes men and he writes women. He writes evil types of both genders, he writes morally grey ones. Joss writes all kinds of different men, from the seemingly fuddy duddy but badass underneath Giles to the monosyllabic but harmless Oz to the nasty Parker, to the geek turned villain turned all sorts of things Spike, to the "normal" Xander...who's a guy who doesn't think much of himself who's thrust into all kinds of dangerous situations, who ends up capable of both giving caring advice AND managing a team of young warriors.

Joss doesn't "rip apart" male characters. Ok, apart from Warren, literally. But that was never an attack on being a man, it was an attack on men who attack women.




Nope, but he stayed and looked after *his* squad and *his* castle. It's not as if hasn't got a story this arc now he's been left at the castle, his arc is shaping up to be just as compelling as the Buffy/Fray or Willow/Kennedy one, the castle just exploded, that's HUGE and Xander has to deal with it all on his own.

Oops, sorry, just repeated you, didn’t read this… but yes, the blowing up of the castle only serves to make Xander MORE central. He can join Buffy on the leadership guilt train! :D



Joss Whedon attempts to humanize and diversify, all of his characters and his female characters especially have a distinct voice. They are unique and do not all subscribe to any one set of characteristics that might be said to be feminine. In individualizing his female characers Joss Whedon promotes individual strengths and weaknesses, which in turn lead to recognition of these characters as people, and not just women.


Bingo. People are people, women are people, men are people. Even demons are people sometimes. :D



The most empowering act I feel a person can have is freedom or choice.

The slayer spell is certainly problematic on this score. As is the initial role of the slayer. But part of the struggle for equality is being put in situations in which you are constrained, and finding ways to throw off chains (or watcher’s councils), to change the circumstances you are given. Sometimes that means you deprive others’ of their freedom. This is where the Jossverse is NOT a utopia, and Buffy is not a paragon.


When Buffy embraces her Slayerness, apart from the Watcher's council, her friends, and family in "Anne" it's an existential choice to define herself, Buffy is no longer Slayer because she must be or is coerced into being the Salyer but because she chooses to use her power and define herself in relation to her power.

Perhaps it’s comparable to reclaiming the word “queer”? :D



I get that real life is complicated and they were shooting for a realistic take on problems and life but in a sci-fi/horror show like Buffy, people watch it because it takes them out of their real world into a fantasy world.

But I don’t want a fantasy world to take me out (oh god, that song will be stuck in my head ALL DAY now) of my world into a world that reduces the complexities. I want a fantasy world that mirrors the real world in interesting ways and sheds new light on life.

That’s what I love about sci fi (and good fantasy, not the swords and sorcery nonsense) – it explores human nature in a “foreign” context, allowing certain ideas to be brought out and conflicts to be fought through using creatures and people that we at once recognise as parts of ourself, but without the automatically familiar trappings of the “real” world. It’s a larger than life theatre that is still about life in the end.


We learnt this from 'The Long Way Home' when he knows his strengths and weaknesses, he wanted to go in and save his best friend but he knew Buffy needed another girl with him. This is just another extension of that IMO. Him rushing and trying to kill Toru and getting his ass kicked, though understandable, wouldn't have fit in with his character's growth this season.

Yes, this is a great indication of how far Xander’s come. He knows himself – perhaps better than Buffy knows herself, and I’m pretty sure better than Willow knows herself right now… with her denials about the fraternising with snakes. Bad Willow!

RAZOR0018
18-07-08, 02:50 AM
I enjoy the comics I just wish they were longer or atleast 50 pages minus ads. Waiting nearly half a year to complete what would be one episode or minor story arc of a Buffy TV Series is just too time consuming.

CaptainOats
18-07-08, 10:02 PM
I enjoy the comics I just wish they were longer or atleast 50 pages minus ads. Waiting nearly half a year to complete what would be one episode or minor story arc of a Buffy TV Series is just too time consuming.

I know! They just feel so short and personally, I have always hated the adds. They take so much away from the story and they do feel much to short. But hey - at least it's Buffy! Gotta be greatful for that!