3.16 No Rest for the Wicked

[Ehlwyen]

Well we all knew a cliffhanger was coming! Come in and discuss the episode and how you'll have no rest until September!

[Rosely]

Well we all knew a cliffhanger was coming! Come in and discuss the episode and how you'll have no rest until September!

haha! yeah... damn!

I had actually thought they wouldn't do it! I mean, they almost died in the first season finale, Dean almost died in 2.01, John died in 2.01. Then Sam died in 2.21 and now Dean... what?
I didn't expect a deus ex machina... but I they do build up that whole 'Sam has some sort of demonic power' thing. So why not use it at least a bit and have Sam kill Lilith in the end.

Poor girl that Ruby was in... she's dead now :( killed by Bobby. Weird stuff!

But my first reaction definitely is:
WTF WTF WTF????

How will they get Dean out of this? I mean... they can't have a 4th season and not have Dean?! :thud:

[galathea]

I had actually thought they wouldn't do it! I mean, they almost died in the first season finale, Dean almost died in 2.01, John died in 2.01. Then Sam died in 2.21 and now Dean... what? This show was always about parallels and there are some beautiful ones between S2 and S3 now. Both main characters died for the convicion they presented since the Pilot and I love that. I don't feel it was repetitive at all.

I didn't expect a deus ex machina... but I they do build up that whole 'Sam has some sort of demonic power' thing. So why not use it at least a bit and have Sam kill Lilith in the end. Because there is no such thing as being 'a bit' evil. Dean feared that by using his powers he would loose Sam to the darkside. As he said: 'It won't save me. It will only kill you!' .. It will kill the Sam he raised and protected his whole life. You see what became of Jake and Ava after they gave into their powers. If there is a way to control it, it's sure not while you're desperate!

Poor girl that Ruby was in... she's dead now :( killed by Bobby. Weird stuff! It's not sure at all what happened to Ruby. The ending was open. We don't know what Sam exactly did to stop Lilith. We will see that in S4 :D

How will they get Dean out of this? I mean... they can't have a 4th season and not have Dean?! :thud: Of course not! :lol: They will get him from wherever he is probably between 4.01 - 4.03 is my guess!

[Ehlwyen]

haha! yeah... damn!

I had actually thought they wouldn't do it! I mean, they almost died in the first season finale, Dean almost died in 2.01, John died in 2.01. Then Sam died in 2.21 and now Dean... what?

I know!!! I felt the same way. And I couldn't help but have flashes of Dean getting ripped by the hellhounds being just like in S1 by the YED! And both of them being held against the wall by telekinesis. I was waiting for Sam to finally break that hold.

After Dean is slashed and Lillith sends the bright light, it went to commercial, I was almost believing that it was going to come back and be Sam having a premonition. Which would have made sense considering that is his natural power and then lead into him unwilling starting the cascade into the other powers. (Fear #1 of how the next season will start off. It really was all a premonition. *groans* )


And where is Ruby? Somewhere on earth? Or in hell? Will she be the one to save Dean? Will she be played by another actress now?

[Rosely]

This show was always about parallels and there are some beautiful ones between S2 and S3 now. Both main characters died for the convicion they presented since the Pilot and I love that. I don't feel it was repetitive at all.
Hmmm maybe in a deeper way, and sure the parallels are there and some are beautiful, but to have every main character die for their family?
Only John stayed dead, Sam cam back and we have to get Dean back some way.... but still.

Because there is no such thing as being 'a bit' evil. Dean feared that by using his powers he would loose Sam to the darkside. As he said: 'It won't save me. It will only kill you!' .. It will kill the Sam he raised and protected his whole life. You see what became of Jake and Ava after they gave into their powers. If there is a way to control it, it's sure not while you're desperate!
Hmm... not sure. Sam would not be giving into his powers and wouldn't know what and how. He had visions, and he tapped into his power to save Dean when locked in the closet. Sam knows so much more about these powers and demons and good and evil then Jake and Ava did, so there's no saying he would go evil, he could tap into those powers and stay good. IMO.

It's not sure at all what happened to Ruby. The ending was open. We don't know what Sam exactly did to stop Lilith. We will see that in S4 :D
No, I meant the girl that was posessed by Ruby. She was killed by Bobby when testing the Colt. Still Ruby could get back into her now that Lillith is gone.
I liked the "twist" when Lillith was no longer in that little girl, and was in Ruby instead.

Of course not! :lol: They will get him from wherever he is probably between 4.01 - 4.03 is my guess!
I wish it was september....
Maybe Sam will hunt down Lillith and fight her and almost kill her untill she releases Dean. But how will he be able to get back into his ripped apart body? :(
Of course if Sam is able to convince Lillith to let Dean go, she can also repair his body.
Maybe he makes a deal with her with the only 'price' letting her live... hehe ;)

I know!!! I felt the same way. And I couldn't help but have flashes of Dean getting ripped by the hellhounds being just like in S1 by the YED! And both of them being held against the wall by telekinesis. I was waiting for Sam to finally break that hold.
Exactly. It felt a tiny bit like betrayal.
After Dean is slashed and Lillith sends the bright light, it went to commercial, I was almost believing that it was going to come back and be Sam having a premonition. Which would have made sense considering that is his natural power and then lead into him unwilling starting the cascade into the other powers. (Fear #1 of how the next season will start off. It really was all a premonition. *groans* )
ha, lol, I didn't even think of that! Well... why not?
what if he had that premonition just before getting the hellhounds coming?
I mean, they have written themselves into a very complex situation and every come - out will be cheap. This could be a cheap one, but it would at least be somewhat believable. More believable then Sam going into Hell to get Dean out.

And where is Ruby? Somewhere on earth? Or in hell? Will she be the one to save Dean? Will she be played by another actress now?
I liked the actress... I hope she'll be back! :(

[Ehlwyen]

Because there is no such thing as being 'a bit' evil. Dean feared that by using his powers he would loose Sam to the darkside. As he said: 'It won't save me. It will only kill you!' .. It will kill the Sam he raised and protected his whole life. You see what became of Jake and Ava after they gave into their powers. If there is a way to control it, it's sure not while you're desperate!


I disagree. I think evil can have shades of gray.

And who were Jake and Ava? Some kid who unwittingly joined the army to pay for his college? Ava, a secretary from Peoria. They didn't have a chance. Sam has known from day one that evil is out there. Sam has a lot more determination and resistance than either of those. Sam has a chance to come back.

[galathea]

I disagree. I think evil can have shades of gray.

And who were Jake and Ava? Some kid who unwittingly joined the army to pay for his college? Ava, a secretary from Peoria. They didn't have a chance. Sam has known from day one that evil is out there. Sam has a lot more determination and resistance than either of those. Sam has a chance to come back. See, the thing is I agree, maybe Sam would be able to control the power he has without becoming evil. Andy expanded his powers without being evil. But Ruby waited til the end for a reason, she wanted Sam to be desperate enough to unlock his powers and I think that would be the wrong motivation. In the end Sam did tap into his powers, Lilith's confused reaction after her 'white spell' didn't work on Sam showed that. Either Sam was protected from her or he used his powers and I bet on the last. We will have to wait how that will play out. But Dean's objection was valid. They have no clue how and why the powers work. They just haven't! To rush into using them might as well loose him Sam forever.

[galathea]

Hmmm maybe in a deeper way, and sure the parallels are there and some are beautiful, but to have every main character die for their family?
Only John stayed dead, Sam cam back and we have to get Dean back some way.... but still. Sam didn't die for his family, he died for his conviction to have a choice in his destiny. Totally different thing. :)

Why not just wait and see what happens in September. Why already fearing the worst ways out possible. They already said they don't have the budget to make 'hell' episodes and I doubt that they would go for a 'bohoo it was all a premonition' cop-out. I have more trust in the writers than that!

[Rosely]

Sam didn't die for his family, he died for his conviction to have a choice in his destiny. Totally different thing. :)

Why not just wait and see what happens in September. Why already fearing the worst ways out possible. They already said they don't have the budget to make 'hell' episodes and I doubt that they would go for a 'bohoo it was all a premonition' cop-out. I have more trust in the writers than that!

Hello there optimistic girl!!
What did you do with Chris?
;)

Wait till September sure is the only thing to do... but it's 4 extremely long months!!!
I guess I'll just go and watch the ep again now, and screencap it :)

[Ehlwyen]

Hmm... not sure. Sam would not be giving into his powers and wouldn't know what and how. He had visions, and he tapped into his power to save Dean when locked in the closet. Sam knows so much more about these powers and demons and good and evil then Jake and Ava did, so there's no saying he would go evil, he could tap into those powers and stay good. IMO.


Good point! We have seen Sam already dip into those powers. Reflexively. That's why I wouldn't have been shocked to see a reflex to save Dean as the hellhounds ripped him.

And I definitely agree with what you are saying about Jake and Ava.

Obviously, Sam could ultimately go out of control with the powers. Particularily if he feels that he is in control. But I think his powers arising reflexively are powerful enough to help Dean, but not the beginning of the cascade of opening doors of powers.

Yeah, I feel the same thing about the girl that was Ruby. I cannot believe and am angered at Bobby's wanton and unsympathetic shooting of her. Maybe she was already dead, but he knew that gun wasn't going to kill a demon anyway.

[galathea]

Hello there optimistic girl!!
What did you do with Chris?
;)ROFL well, the pessimist might come back, but this show just makes me believe on occasion! So far none of my worst predictions have ever come true (and believe me I had MANY) and the writers always proved to me that in the end, when it counts they either went exactly the way I wanted them to or they made their way very plausible. I think after 3 seasons I should finally show some faith! :lol:

[galathea]

Obviously, Sam could ultimately go out of control with the powers. Particularily if he feels that he is in control. But I think his powers arising reflexively are powerful enough to help Dean, but not the beginning of the cascade of opening doors of powers. That the thing goes out of control is exactly what Dean feared most. When Sam said: 'Hey, it's me, I can handle it!' my immediate reaction was: exactly that's the problem, to believe he could control it, especially under the extreme pressure and with the desperation blanking out every reasonable doubt. Yeah, he used his powers reflexively once! He still admitted that he has no idea how they work or how to activate them on will. I am sure that Sam's powers will be a main theme of S4 and I am excited to see what they have in store.

Yeah, I feel the same thing about the girl that was Ruby. I cannot believe and am angered at Bobby's wanton and unsympathetic shooting of her. Maybe she was already dead, but he knew that gun wasn't going to kill a demon anyway. I still consider Bobby shooting Ruby the single most out of character moment in the show, especially after we learned how Bobby's wife died. I know that's no excuse, still all I can do to rationalise it is that Bobby might have had a tiny hope that the Colt worked after all.

[Ehlwyen]

See, the thing is I agree, maybe Sam would be able to control the power he has without becoming evil. Andy expanded his powers without being evil. But Ruby waited til the end for a reason, she wanted Sam to be desperate enough to unlock his powers and I think that would be the wrong motivation.

Absolutely, Ruby is every word Dean has called her. They should never trust her and I've been screaming that at the tv all season. I didn't want Sam to use his powers on behalf of Ruby's instruction. No way, never.

If Sam's going to use powers, I want it to be on his own terms.

The problem is the boys are always wanting someone else's guidance or tutelage rather than trusting in themselves. Which Dean's final resolution that only he could get him out of this was very enheartening to me.


In the end Sam did tap into his powers, Lilith's confused reaction after her 'white spell' didn't work on Sam showed that. Either Sam was protected from her or he used his powers and I bet on the last. We will have to wait how that will play out.

See, I thought Sam was immune from her. He's got YED blood in him and Lillith never made a stand until the YED was gone. It seems to me that she would be weak compared to YED. Not to mention her fear of Sam.

I don't think Sam used his powers. Another option maybe that he absorbed hers?

[galathea]

See, I thought Sam was immune from her. He's got YED blood in him and Lillith never made a stand until the YED was gone. It seems to me that she would be weak compared to YED. Not to mention her fear of Sam.

I don't think Sam used his powers. Another option maybe that he absorbed hers? But why would he be immune from her? You thinking of Croatoan? Wouldn't Sam be immune to all demonic influence then? So far demons easily pin him to walls or hurt him just like any other human, why would he be specifically immune to Lilith? Ruby says she is afraid of him, but when she confronted Sam I didn't see even a hint of fear or insecurity, only after her spell didn't work she was terrified.

It would be possible that he absorbed her powers or at least deactivated her somehow if we think about how she tries to stop him with her hand outstretched but nothing happens (after the spell didn't work) and she has to flee. This endscene is wide open to speculation. :D

[Llywela]

Good point! We have seen Sam already dip into those powers. Reflexively. That's why I wouldn't have been shocked to see a reflex to save Dean as the hellhounds ripped him.

See, I thought Sam was immune from her. He's got YED blood in him and Lillith never made a stand until the YED was gone. It seems to me that she would be weak compared to YED. Not to mention her fear of Sam.

I don't think Sam used his powers. Another option maybe that he absorbed hers?
We don't know yet why Sam was shielded from Lilith's death ray, or whatever - but what really hit me about the fact that he was is...he's going to be devastated that he was able to save himself but couldn't use whatever power that was to save Dean :(

I'm still wibbling. I'll have more words and coherence later ;)

[Cori]

I'm truly shocked by this season finale and I can't quite put my feelings into words yet but I have to comment on a few things that were raised in here.

I know!!! I felt the same way. And I couldn't help but have flashes of Dean getting ripped by the hellhounds being just like in S1 by the YED! And both of them being held against the wall by telekinesis. I was waiting for Sam to finally break that hold.

Glad I was not the only one then. I kept hoping and waiting for Sam to break the hold and release his powers to save Dean (he managed to do so by using telekinesis in Nightmare), especially since Ruby made such a big fuss about Sam's powers before.

So I'm with Lyn and Rosely on this, I would have loved to see Sam release his powers in this instance. I get Dean's fears, that Sam wouldn't be able to control his powers and maybe he wouldn't but I think Rosely is right, Sam knows more about evil and demons than Jake or Ava ever could. Of course the fact that Lilith seems to be actually afraid of Sam (at least at the end when her white light death flash did not work on Sam) could also indicate that his powers are extremely dangerous. I guess that's something that will be addressed in s4. ;)

After Dean is slashed and Lillith sends the bright light, it went to commercial, I was almost believing that it was going to come back and be Sam having a premonition. Which would have made sense considering that is his natural power and then lead into him unwilling starting the cascade into the other powers. (Fear #1 of how the next season will start off. It really was all a premonition. *groans* )

OMG that would be beyond cheesy (that it was all a premonition), almost like in a soap opera when everything that has happened for several episodes turns out to be a dream. I would really hate that! However, I have enough faith in Kripke & co. that they won't go down this route.

And where is Ruby? Somewhere on earth? Or in hell? Will she be the one to save Dean? Will she be played by another actress now?

All valid questions. Personally, I would hate it if the character of Ruby was played by another actress, that's also something they do on soaps and I for one can never get used to the new actor/actress after having seen someone else played the part for so long. :(

If Ruby actually is in hell and she were to save Dean from hell somehow, now that is a scenario that I might like (if it's done right). For once I'm actually glad that Supernatural does have a tight budget because personally I can do without episodes of seeing Dean being tortured in hell. The very last scene of the s3 finale was painful enough for me to watch. :(

[KingofCretins]

I really enjoyed the episode. It's not every show, or even a few shows, that would have the balls to actually go through with killing Dean and sending him to hell. It also makes it pretty problematic to even guess how they can bring him back, since the phlebotenum in "Supernatural" is a lot less broad, a lot more grounded than in the Buffyverse, for instance.

I wasn't surprised to see that they basically recast Lilith through Ruby for the purposes of violence and conflict -- it's not hard or very palatable to have small children getting stabbed and so on. And Katie Cassidy did a great job with it, and I think she's done a great job all season. She's squeezed every bit of empathy for her character possible out of the role, which, considering lying, casually murderous demon? Not an easy job. In fact, I was actually worried about her when Lilith took over. I think it's a bit of a waste if Ruby-as-Katie Cassidy is off the series just like that.

Minor complaint, something that didn't ring true for me is the moment that sets up Ruby turning into Lilith -- watching Ruby walk into the darkened room and shut the door behind her, with Sam watching, and no indication on if he's following her, if he's waiting for her, if they're splitting up. And, since they were splitting up... huh? He trusts her enough to let her out of his sight? Just... felt off as a way of blocking the scene. They need her out of the scene to justify her changing, but there had to be a crisper way to do it.

I don't know why, but I was uncertain that was even Lilith throughout the episode. She looked... way different to me than in "Jus in Bello" and last week's episode for some reason. I inferred it must be her, but I didn't really *recognize* her, so the whole time I was kinda wondering if they had the wrong house :)

Supernatural technical question -- when a demon, such as Lilith, does the Lostzilla smoke mouth thing... is it dead, or just leaving that person's body? I get that we're not supposed to know quite what the heck happened between Sam and Lilith there, what he did to her, but does the smoke thing mean she's alive or dead?

Where did Bobby go? Sort of lost track of him. He sets up the sprinklers (which was sweet, reminds me of a similar stunt in the comic "Viva Las Buffy"), and then he's just... gone.

Jensen Ackles acting was great in this episode. I loved how he played the Bon Jovi sing along, how he got Sam into it but then sobered up. Also love the little breaks in his voice when he finally knew it was over and was telling Sam to take care of his wheels, which tells him a lot more than that without being 'socially awkward'.

Dean was right about Sam's powers, IMO. It was a better thing to face the deal he'd made than to risk Sam playing into some evil agenda and becoming something horrible. In a way, that would have only put Dean back to where he was before he made the deal -- alive, but having lost his brother. Dean is a brave, heroic guy, and gallant. I kinda hope Sam doesn't go all Darth Sam like in that earlier episode.

[galathea]

Supernatural technical question -- when a demon, such as Lilith, does the Lostzilla smoke mouth thing... is it dead, or just leaving that person's body? I get that we're not supposed to know quite what the heck happened between Sam and Lilith there, what he did to her, but does the smoke thing mean she's alive or dead? It just means the demon leaves the body, is set free into the world again. There's only one way to kill a demon so far, that's with the magical Colt/Dagger. Otherwise an exorcism will only send it back to hell and not kill it either.

[BlasterBoy]

Wow, that was a fantastic episode! I don't have much to comment on, but a quick question. Is Ruby dead or alive? I'm confused. She was awesome as hell in this episode, and really hope she's alive :xd Bobby was awesome, as usual, and I love how he considers himself part of the family :heart: King, I think Lilith just switched little girls. Because, that's definitely not her from "Jus In Bello". I was disappointed that Ellen was not in this episode, because all spoilers pointed to her being in this episode :( Oh, well, it was fantastic without her. I loved Dean and Sam singing loudly to Bon Jovi....great stuff. And the end! :eek: Okay, I did not see that coming. They actually killed off Dean. Holy mother fuc-

Yeah, I loved it.

[galathea]

Thank you Eric Kripke for giving me almost everything I possibly wanted from the finale of S3! With the exception of Fresh Blood and A Very Supernatural Christmas there wasn’t a single episode this season that I was as much invested in as I was in No Rest For The Wicked. The writing was tight and focused, the acting was wonderful and the resolution to the main character arcs concerning Dean’s deal was exactly what I hoped for! Man, this episode made me so happy and devastated me at the same time. Last week I was still wary and not ready for the finale and didn’t really think they could pull this off in a manner that would satisfy me, given that we missed out so much because of the shortened season and of course they had to prove me wrong. :lol:

I think that this finale made up for a lot of the little annoyances and frustrations I bitched over during the season and I figure that with hindsight I discover more about this season to love than I did the first time around. Not that I think this season was bad, it had some fantastic episodes and was mostly solid for the rest, which is no small achievement given the restraints it was under, it only fell short of my expectations, which skyrocketed after the S2 finale. But I think by now I reconciled with this season and look expectantly towards S4, which looks extremely promising from the few general pointers Kripke gave in interviews so far! So let’s just hope for no more network interferences, looming strikes, actor/writer unavailability or other catastrophes! September looks way too far away at the moment! *sigh*

Uh, sorry for that ramble! Onto the review, sorry if I am not all coherent and maybe repeat myself at times, it’s just that some of the character stuff made me so giddy, I am probably stuck on it like a broken record! LOL

Dean: “We’re not gonna make the same mistakes all over again!”

It’s a funny thing with this show how it often makes me want or like the exact things that at one point I thought I would hate! :lol: When this season started I desperately wanted Sam to save Dean. I needed him to save his brother in order to make the huge burden of Dean’s deal bearable for both of them, I felt he and Dean earned that much. Over the course of the season though my feelings changed: Seeing Sam becoming more and more ruthless, slowly sliding down the slippery slope of darkness, ultimately loosing the character integrity he fought so hard for in S2 convinced me that the only salvation for Sam was to accept Dean’s deal and let him go. The thought that Dean’s sacrifice, made out of love for his brother, would achieve what the YED didn’t with all his plotting was always more depressing for me than Dean actually dieing for what he believed in.

I was always a huge fan of how the show parallels and mirrors its own plotlines and the way S3 mirrors S2 is no exception: Despite his best efforts, Dean wasn’t able to keep the promise he made to Sam back in Nightmare and Born Under A Bad Sign, he never stood a chance to save Sam, all factors were out of his own control. His only chance was to retroactively ‘right’ the wrong by sacrificing himself. I love how that theme replays in S3 with Sam, not being able to keep his promise to Dean from All Hell Breaks Loose II and Dream A Little Dream either. He also has the choice to make things ‘right’ by sacrificing himself but Dean convinces him not to and that’s the difference. It may seem small but it’s probably the most important thing for me personally in this finale and for Sam’s character arc!

Twice now Sam decided to step back from the path of darkness and I can't formulate how happy that makes me. From day one in this show Sam’s main theme was choice, the need to control his life and make his own decisions and ultimately he died for his conviction. Dean’s main theme was always family, the need to protect his family and sacrifice his own needs for it and ultimately he now also gave his life for this conviction. While I am heartbroken and devastated at Dean’s death on many levels, I also deeply admire that paralleling structure in both of these seasons and that’s the reason why (despite having both main characters die) those two season finales don’t feel repetitive to me but complementary.

Dean: “What you’re doing, is not gonna save me. It’s only going to kill you.”

From Mystery Spot on, I firmly wanted for the circle of sacrifices that the Winchesters are caught in to stop, even if it meant that Dean’s deal would need to come to its natural end and I am beyond happy that Dean came to the same conclusion. If Sam had sacrificed what and who he is in a desperate act to save his brother, Dean’s deal would have been futile in the end, the Sam he raised, protected and sold his soul for gone. He never wanted for his brother to become something he is not, especially not as a result of his own actions. He surely doesn’t want to die or go to hell, but Sam’s life and the intactness of his brother’s soul (or his own for that matter) is the one thing he can’t risk. If there’s no other way to save him but by Sam corrupting his identity he rather dies and I love that about Dean! :heart:

Two main themes echoed throughout this season, ‘you need to let go’ and ‘you can’t save your brother’ and they brought them to the natural conclusion for me here. Sam was willing to do anything in order to save Dean, this season showed that over and over again and it always ended in Sam stepping back from his compassionate and gentle nature, in extreme we saw that in Mystery Spot. That he in the end accepted Dean’s decision and agreed to carry on the Winchester torch, to stay true to the original values of his family, made me so proud of him and gave me hope that he doesn’t end up like the cold and machine-like Sam we saw in that short glimpse in MS. Ultimately it means to me that in this finale Dean saved Sam’s soul, after he restored Sam’s life in AHBL II. Dean is Sam’s humanity, like Sam was always Dean’s conscience in the first 2 seasons. Oh boys! :heart: :heart:

Of course my show could totally prove me wrong on this by making Sam into a total psycho to get Dean back from wherever he is right now :lol: but for the moment I am utterly content at how it played out!

Sam: “Dean, what are you afraid’s gonna happen. This is me, I can handle it!”

When Kripke said last summer that he wanted the psychic kids storyline to end because it became too confusing, I always hoped he didn’t mean the whole ‘Sam is psychic’ plotline along with it. So, I was predicting that Sam’s powers were not gone but only dormant and I am happy it was confirmed here. That Sam is actually the weapon that would be able to stop Lilith and free Dean's soul comes as no real surprise, but at what price? Opening his mind to his demonic powers bears the risk to loose himself completely. We have seen that with Ava and Jake, who turned evil in the blink of an eye once they gave into the temptation, both were desperate and fighting for their lives and those of their loved ones as well. Sam giving into his powers in his current state of mind, might be the exact thing that would let the whole thing swing out of control.

On the other hand we have Andy, who was able to expand his powers slowly and subtly without demonic support and never turned evil. So, given Sam’s knowledge and determination, he might indeed be able to control the powers and keeping his integrity intact, but I think Dean is right that it’s not worth risking it especially in this situation, where Sam is desperate, under immense pressure and would rely on Ruby’s help of all people. She waited so long for a reason to suggest this step to Sam, she needed him to be desperate enough to not look the gift horse in the mouth. Sam’s assessment that he is able to handle his powers, although he knows neither where they come from nor how they work at all, is blinded by the hope that it’ll work. It’s like Doc Benton all over again, not looking farther into the consequences, only seeing the immediate relief of the miracle cure.

Sam succumbing to his powers under pressure was the exact thing the YED strived for and to play along those plans out of desperation seems foolish to me. Dean's words of caution are reasonable and ring true to me. I am sure that Sam's powers will play a major role in S4 and I am looking forward to it. After he resisted in this finale they may work towards Sam controlling his powers in order to defeat Lilith. If done right, I can anticipate that plotline as thrilling!

Ruby: “I’m telling you, you can save your brother and I can show you how!”

I always predicted that Ruby’s ultimate goal is for Sam to give into his powers, luring him over to the dark side, bringing the YED’s plans to a close. While all her pushing over the season proved to be fruitless, she knew that in the end she only needed to wait long enough, to wait for Sam being desperate enough to grasp at the straw she is offering him. Like in Jus In Bello she presents a dilemma to him that seems unwinnable hoping Sam will follow her lead, but again Sam is listening to Dean instead. :heart:

It’s interesting how Ruby tries to undermine Dean’s position by suggesting to Sam that Dean considers him a freak of nature, but actually Dean never looked with fear or rejection at Sam (especially not in Ruby’s presence) and so I tend to think that Ruby skimmed that from Sam’s mind. Like I assumed in my TIOMS review, Sam is afraid of that very thing, that Dean might reject him if he knew of the demon blood and he is projecting his own fears on his brother, although Dean never gave him a reason to think that way. I am really curious when Sam will open up to his brother about all the secrets he kept over this season.

The initial confrontation between Ruby, Sam and Dean was absolutely delightful! I hoped that after the reveal of Ruby’s lies, Sam’s demeanour towards her would change and I was happy to see that that’s the case. He is intrigued by her offer, but his tone towards her changed completely. I loved how she played the alluring siren while she was alone with Sam and turned to spiteful as soon as Dean enters the scene. Dean has always been her main obstacle when it comes to Sam and this situation proves to be no different. I enjoyed that this was the first occasion where Dean outsmarted Ruby and not only swept the knife from her while they were fighting but also trapped her at the same time. Well done!

Her ability to free herself out of the Devil’s Trap was interesting though, only Meg was able to do that so far. She seems to be much higher in the demonic hierarchy than I expected, even if she wasn’t able to defeat Tammi in Malleus Maleficarum. It’s still unclear why she wants Lilith dead so badly and what her plans were once she managed to turn Sam the way she wanted him to. I am with Dean that I don’t trust her ‘I was human once’ speech at all and I expect some meaty background for her character in the next season.

Bobby: “Family don’t end with blood, boy!” :heart:

Every time I think I can’t possibly love Bobby more, he goes and does something that proves me wrong! I love how he anticipated Sam and Dean leaving him behind, concerned for his safety, and messed with the Impala to stop them! :heart: Heh, and Dean didn’t even bother with growling at Bobby for touching his baby! Bobby’s indignation over Sam and Dean ditching him was delightful and reminding them that they are family, if not by blood but by affection and choice filled me with joy! What strikes me here is the comparison to the Trickster’s impersonation of Bobby in Mystery Spot, who came off as too sappy, even if he used a similar phrase there, it’s all in the grumpy but affectionate tone and posture. I am not sure if that difference between MS and NRFTW was played consciously by Jim Beaver, it just stood out for me in this moment.

I also love that he doesn’t interfere with their decisions, doesn’t try to convince them the one or other way, giving his opinion but ultimately supporting Dean in whatever he plans to do. And the holy water sprinklers? Awesome! I had to giggle at that because it was Jensen Ackles who suggested in an interview that Sam and Dean should install holy water sprinklers on top of the Impala! :lol: I was a bit sad that Bobby wasn’t in the final scenes and didn’t get a chance to say his goodbyes to Dean. It’s just absolutely devastating to think about how awful it must be for Bobby to again come back to the scene of the fight and find the one brother cradling his dead sibling in his arms. I hope Sam is a bit more open to Bobby’s comfort than Dean was. :(

Sam: “So what am I supposed to do?”
Dean: “Keep fighting! Take care of my wheels. Sam, remember what Dad taught you, okay? Remember what I taught you!” :heart:

Dean’s final plea for Sam to let him go instead of giving into the temptation Killed. Me. Dead! Both Jensen and Jared knocked these brother scenes out of the park, even more so than usual. Sam’s silent desperation and Dean’s calm directions for his brother were absolutely heartbreaking. What Dean leaves behind, his car and the family business, he hands it over to Sam and his brother accepts with a simple nod. Everything is said between them. And it’s completely different from Sam’s quick death in AHBL I, where they both had no chance to say their goodbyes and I can’t decide which is more devastating.

Dean being mangled by the hellhounds was incredibly hard to watch and I just wanted it to stop. I am not sure how they will explain the recuperation of his body for S4 though, but I worry about that when the time comes. Sam crying over the body of his dead brother was so much worse than everything we saw in Mystery Spot and it felt so much more real, despite the fact that we know that Dean won’t stay dead for long here either. Man, I am curious how they will weasel their way out of that one, but at the moment I trust that the resolution will be awesome.

I have to say that while Dean's death leaves me devastated and crushed, I can't help but feel that this is the only way to end this season. It feels true and inevitable and real to end the storyline of Dean's deal with its most severe consequence. If they had come up with a last minute way out of the deal, I might have felt happy and relieved, but it would also have felt like a cop-out. The Winchesters meddled with the supernatural time and again to fight off mortality and it feels right that they pay a price in the end. There's no do-over. It hurts madly, but it's also very satisfying and I am glad that Kripke had the guts to go through with it.

One word at the end about the final scenes: I loved that they left the events purposefully ambivalent and open to speculation over the summer hiatus. Somehow Sam stopped Lilith, either by unconsciously using his powers or by simply being protected from her death spell by reasons unknown at the moment. Either way, that’s an exciting prospect for S4. Lilith terrified reaction to Sam’s immunity was interesting because I always assumed that she was afraid of Sam but she obviously didn’t expect the outcome of that confrontation and was awfully self-confident before when she had Sam and Dean in her grip. If she didn’t expect this, what was she afraid of exactly?

I saw a lot of people assuming that Ruby is dead and Dean went to hell, but I don’t think it is that clear cut: It’s not sure if Lilith really forced the demon Ruby out of her body, at least not in the conventional manner, ‘cause even if we couldn’t see the possession, the expelling of a demon from the host is usually very noisy and I would have expected for Sam to hear that. That leads me to the assumption that she might have locked/trapped Ruby in the body or otherwise incapacitated her, while still within the host. There’s at least no indication that Ruby is dead. Lilith’s ‘I sent her far, far away’ is very unspecific and could apply to a number of things.

As for Dean, I don’t necessarily think that what we saw is Dean in hell. Mainly for two reasons a) Kripke always stated that they won’t film hell-episodes for budget reasons and b) the zoom through Dean’s eye, like the camera looks right into his brain, might just as well mean that Dean is trapped within himself rather than in hell. It could also be that it wasn’t actual hell but some kind of Limbo. After all it looks as if the hellhounds were interrupted, if we compare it to the Doctor from Crossroads Blues who was dragged bodily away by the hellhounds. Of course that’s all wild speculation and it’s just as probable that Dean is indeed in hell, still I think the options are there! Anyway, whatever the last scene depicted, at least one aspect of it hits right home: Dean is alone! And if that isn’t his worst nightmare ever, I don’t know what is! :(

What else is squee-worthy?

Oh man, Sam and Dean in the Impala singing along to Bon Jovi made me cry and laugh at the same time. :heart: I loved how they referred back to Salvation where Sam also wanted to give his goodbye speech to Dean before they confronted the YED and Dean didn’t let him there either! Dean starting to bellow out to the song, dragging Sam along, who hesitantly joins in to humour his brother, only to have the reality of the lyrics strike home for Dean and the song getting stuck in his throat, his expression changing to terrified, man that killed me. On a lighter note though, I always find it amusing if Jensen gets to sing in the show since we know that he deliberately tries to not hit the right notes. I find it funny that he chose to depict Dean as a terrible singer instead of going the easier route and use his natural singing voice. :lol: I couldn’t help wondering though if Jared tried the same or if he really is that bad! LOL *hugs the boys*

As usual I always adore it if they manage to believably pack some typical brotherly banter even amongst all the angst and doom and this episode is no exception: From Dean’s ‘let’s make a TJ run’ (Let’s never do that!) to Sam’s ‘you should be jamming to Eye Of the Tiger’ (I totally rehearsed that speech too!) I love how they diffused the tension with some humour here and it completely worked for me. :heart:

One last thing that is bugging me ever since In My Time Of Dying: If John knew how to summon the YED why did he search for leads all over the country instead of just summoning it to him when he had the Colt? The same applies here: They can summon Ruby, why don’t they summon Lilith as well?! She would be without her guards and unprepared. I have no idea if there’s any logic behind that, which I just don’t see at the moment or if that’s a plothole.

So I think this was my favourite S3 episode or at least in the Top3. :heart: Season 4 can’t come soon enough! There’s probably a million more things to say, but at the moment I am beat.

[Llywela]

I don't know why, but I was uncertain that was even Lilith throughout the episode. She looked... way different to me than in "Jus in Bello" and last week's episode for some reason. I inferred it must be her, but I didn't really *recognize* her, so the whole time I was kinda wondering if they had the wrong house :)

Where did Bobby go? Sort of lost track of him. He sets up the sprinklers (which was sweet, reminds me of a similar stunt in the comic "Viva Las Buffy"), and then he's just... gone.
The Lilith demon was using the body of a different child in this episode than in Jus in Bello - that one was brunette, this one was blonde. Hence, obviously, she looked different. Demons can hop from body to body at will. The demon we saw in the flashbacks last week wasn't Lilith - Lilith has white eyes, that one looked like a standard red-eyed crossroads demon, one of her minions, possessing the body of a random child in England in order to manipulate the vulnerable teenage Bela into making a deal.

Bobby stayed outside the house - he was dealing with the sprinkler system and making holy water while the brothers and Ruby broke in. He was then trapped outside, with a long line of demons standing between him and the house. We saw him take shelter in another house and fret over his inability to help the boys, with time running out.

[KingofCretins]

Thanks for cleaning that up for me, Llywela. I just assumed that, like Ruby (and Yellow-Eyes?) that when we met Lilith in "Jus in Bello" that they were giving us also the actress who would *be* Lilith, as a character. I didn't know about the switching thing, and, since I don't still have the episode I was all "that *really* doesn't look like the same kid, though". I was watching their walk through the house thinking they had the wrong house and Lilith might be setting a trap. Well, a different trap than she actually set.

Shame that Bobby couldn't be there... I wonder if he and Sam will be working together full time if they don't do an immediate save for Dean.

Speculation question -- do you think the Colt is gone from the story at this point? Will it turn up in the future, or will Ruby's knife become the new resident anti-demon weapon?

[Vampmaster]

Just managed to get watching this last night but was too tired to make a post, but I do have one word to say in relation to the episode…. Whoa.

I’ll admit that I was one of those fans who were worried about the effect that the shortened season was going to have on our show what with the cutting of storylines etc and I was even more worried when I found out that we weren’t going to get a two part finale that I have become accustomed to such as Salvation/Devils Trap or AHBL part I or II. However I am pleased to be able to say that once again the writers of this wonderful show have not let me down. So on to the review I say. This won’t be in order of what happens in the episode but simply what springs to mind.

Firstly I have to say what a shock when the writers decided to kill of Dean after all. From the start of the season I have always been a fan of the idea of killing Dean off temporarily of course. The idea of SN without Dean permanently is just wrong. Don’t get me wrong I love the character of Dean but I think that this is a plot which could work wonders with the continuing development of Sam. Allowing us the viewers and even the other characters to see what type of an effect the death of Dean has on Sam. Will he turn into the cold hearted hunter we saw in Mystery Spot, or will he now work on a way to get Dean back while developing a closer bond with Bobby. I also think it would be interesting to note how the other demons will react now that Sam is all alone. Will some try to manipulate him into becoming the Demon Prince as some viewers believe Ruby is doing now that Dean his key link to humanity is gone. For this reason alone I hope that they keep Dean in hell till 4.03/4.04 rather than having him come back right away…

As for the actual scene of Dean’s killing, I have to admit I haven’t been as close to tears for a TV show episode in a long time but it just moved me so much. I knew from the moment that Lilith invited the hell hounds into the room with the words “Stick him boy” that this wasn’t going to be pleasant. However it wasn’t the hell hounds killing Dean that got me though that was bad enough. It was Sam and his pleas for Lilith to stop. After following three seasons of the Winchester and the bond between them, I felt as though I could almost feel Sam’s despair and helplessness. Though I hated her character ever since her entrance at the end of Jus In Bello. Lilith’s laughter as Dean was dying really made me wish to see her head on a platter.

Speaking of Lilith I think that Katie Cassidy deserves a round of applause for her performance in this scene. Her movements and tone of voice were so child like it was almost scary. I am sure that it was a conscious choice on the part of both Katie and writers as a way of showing us the viewers of how Lilith has her ability to act as a child learnt perfectly. While at the same time she can also appear to be a cold hearted bitch. What with saying things such as “Silly goose. You wanna bargain you have to have something I want. You don’t” while flipping right away to coolly answering “I don’t have to answer to puppy chow.” I honestly think that this is possibly the best scene of Cassidy all season and so it would be such a shame for the writers to let her go so soon. Besides I personally think that I love Ruby so much unlike Bella due to the way that Cassidy plays her. A love I am afraid I might actually lose if her actress changes.

While I am discussing Ruby I might as well make this part Ruby I have to say that I enjoyed her character in this episode as a whole. Whether it was her trying to persuade Sam to use his abilities in order to defeat Lilith, though really I think that Cassidy does a great job at keeping the character of Ruby ambiguous so that the user is left guessing as to whether or not she truly means what she claims. Then there is her losing her temper at Dean and what a rather fun fight to watch. It also allows us the viewer to get another glimpse of just how powerful in her own right Ruby really is. Though I have always wondered one thing about Ruby why does she appear so hesitant to use her more demonic orientated powers such as telekinesis etc. Is it perhaps he way of trying to be more human appearing whether it’s to herself or Sam? “What you don’t know about me could fill a book” When Ruby said these words I couldn’t help, but think what exactly does she mean by that? I mean obviously as another user mentioned from her ability to escape from the Devils Trap she is higher up in the demon hierarchy than we assumed despite her defeat in Malleus Malcerifium. So I look forward to finding out more about her in Season 4. Well provided that Lilith didn’t completely kill off her characters let’s hope not.

Now as for the relationship of the two brothers during the episode got to say I loved it. Whether it was Dean’s insistence that they go back to the basics and trust their instincts using everything that John taught them rather than make the same mistakes of the past or Sam’s desperation to save Dean. I love the way in which Dean even to the last minute sticks to his conviction that Sam must be kept protected and that his humanity must be kept protected rather than allow him to give into his physic abilities from the yellow eyed demon. My favourite scene between the brothers has to be in the little girl Lilith possessed house when both come to the realisation that Sam just has to let Dean die. Dean’s apology and Sam’s desperate “What do you expect me to do?” is just a perfect reminder of how much Sam rely on Dean. I also loved Dean’s simple reply “Keep fighting and remember what dad taught you?” Reminding us not only of his love for Sam, but the simple faith he has right until the end of John and his teachings. Dean’s right though the demonic world as a whole must be by now aware of the unhealthy obsession with saving one another of the Winchester family.

Some more things

-I couldn’t believe the shock on Lilith face when Sam survived her death ray. If this wasn’t her reason for fearing Sam then what else does she think that he has in him hidden in there? I think that’ll be a key theme of season 4.
-The treatment of the little girl and her family was one of the cruellest things that we have seen a demon do on the show. It’ll be interesting to see whether the writers mention them again in future, or their response to the death of Dean in their home. Also will the police become involved once more? And if so will that particular plot not be as closed as we thought.

So on a finishing note... Can't wait till next season :D

[Parker]

Speculation question -- do you think the Colt is gone from the story at this point? Will it turn up in the future, or will Ruby's knife become the new resident anti-demon weapon?
I'm hoping they bring it back A) Because it's really cool and B) Because I want them to explain how the hell Ruby (it was her wasn't it?) fixed it.

[galathea]

I'm hoping they bring it back A) Because it's really cool and B) Because I want them to explain how the hell Ruby (it was her wasn't it?) fixed it.

I think the exact opposite actually. I am glad that the Colt is gone and I hope it stays gone. It was a way too convenient tool for the boys. Without the Colt they are forced to rely more on their wit and skills to improvise like they did in 'Jus In Bello'. It allows for more interesting story turns, not always ending a dangerous situation by simply shooting the demon. More incentive ways to deal with demons are necessary, if only for the sake of saving the innocent people who are possessed.

[Thomas]

I think the exact opposite actually. I am glad that the Colt is gone and I hope it stays gone. It was a way too convenient tool for the boys. Without the Colt they are forced to rely more on their wit and skills to improvise like they did in 'Jus In Bello'. It allows for more interesting story turns, not always ending a dangerous situation by simply shooting the demon. More incentive ways to deal with demons are necessary, if only for the sake of saving the innocent people who are possessed.I agree. The Colt was so much cooler when they only had a limited amount of bullets, five was it? They had to use it wisely. They couldn't just go around shooting random demons. It was kind of a last resort thing, but after Ruby and Bobby fixed it, they seemed to have an unlimited amount of bullets. I just hope Ruby’s dagger doesn’t become overused as well.

[slaycandy]

And where is Ruby? Somewhere on earth? Or in hell? Will she be the one to save Dean? Will she be played by another actress now?

I met Katie Cassidy last weekend, and she is definitely 100% back for season four, she has her contract signed and everything, :D And she said she was back playing Ruby, so I have no idea what happened to her or where she is, but I know we'll be seeing her again. She said there was a lot more about Ruby they had to tell, so she was definitely going to be coming back. And she said she sprained her ankle filming this episode as they made her run in those high heels and she fell, aww bless!

Anyway, was just catching up on what people were saying about this eppy when I read this, so figured I'd respond. I didnt read everythng so if someone else has already answered this, my bad!

SJ
xox

[Cori]

Thank you so much for posting this, SJ! :hug: This news just made my day! :D Seeing Ruby's dead body lying on the ground there I was a bit worried. Now I knew that Kripke said that Ruby would be in season 4 but I was a bit worried that she might be played by another actress. So relieved that's not the case. One less thing to worry about until September! ;)

Okay I think I have calmed down a bit since Friday and might finally be able to write my review. Although rewatching the episode last night was as devasting an experience for me as it was the first time around. :(

Boy am I conflicted about this season finale! On the one hand, I can appreciate it for a well written, fine episode of television but on the other hand this episode tore me to shreds and left me feeling extremely sad and upset. The season 2 finale upset me as well and made me cry but at least it ended on a positive note and there was still hope for Dean then. Now things just seem to be extremely bleak. :( I'm usually not someone to turn down angst but this was just too much for me, Dean's death hit me harder than anything that I have seen on this show. Now we all know that Dean can't stay in hell forever (thank goodness!) and that Dean will have to get out somehow at some point. But that point in time is months away (at least for the viewers, I have no idea how time progresses in hell)! And just thinking about Dean being stuck in hell for months is almost unbearable to me and I curse Kripke for doing this to me, to us. :(

Dean: "We're not gonna make the same mistakes all over again."

I get where Dean is coming from with the whole stop being martyrs thing, breaking the circle of self-sacrifice for their family. And on the one hand, I agree with him. However, I'm not sure that Dean is right about Sam using his powers being too risky. Yes it would have been dangerous but what if Sam's powers really could have saved Dean without Sam being consumed by his powers? I think one of the favourite things in this episode for me was the discovery that Sam's powers were not gone but have only been dormant. :2party: I have always been fascinated by his powers and I hope they will explored in an in-depth manner in season 4. And, as most of you know, I'm not averse to the idea of seeing dark Sam. They have been foreshadowing and teasing us with that particular storyline for years now and I for one would like to finally see it played out on screen. I'm so curious as to what Sam's powers exactly are, whether he will be able to handle them or not. I understand Dean's reservations but I wished that Sam would have tapped into his powers to save Dean.

Ruby (to Sam): "I'm telling you, you can save your brother and I can show you how."

Isn't Ruby clever? :evil: Trying to get Sam to release his powers must have been her plan all along, she just needed to wait until he was desperate enough to actually consider it. And just as he begins to do just that, Dean steps in. I loved the following confrontation/fight between Dean and Ruby! :D Just like last week with Bela, Dean outsmarts Ruby by stealing her knife and trapping her in a devil's trap. Yay for smart Dean! :heart:

Bobby: "Family don't end with blood, boy."

Aww Bobby! :heart: I love how he cares for the boys and is always there to support and help them. It was great how he disabled the Impala so the boys couldn't just sneak out, that he didn't want to be left out of the fight and be there for the boys until the end.

Dean: "Bon Jovi rocks - on occasion."

Awwww boys, you nearly killed me in that scene, it was so beautiful! :heart: I love how hesitant Sam is in joining in with the singing but once he is in, he really belts it out (very badly though ;) ). At the same time the lyrics of the song really start registering with Dean and he sobers up. This is definitely one of my favourite brotherly bonding moments ever and one of the few light spots in this otherwise very dark episode! :heart:

Sam: "What am I supposed to do?
Dean: "Keep fighting. Take care of my wheels. Sam, remember what Dad taught you, okay? And remember what I taught you."

:cutecry: :cutecry: :cutecry:

This scene was just extremely sad and poignant and beautifully played by Jensen, it broke my heart! :(

I have to say that Lilith holding that poor family hostage was one of the creepiest things I have seen on this show. *shudders* I'm glad that Sam did not kill the little girl though, that Lilith had left her body before. Lilith's ruse of impersonating Ruby was brilliant, I certainly did not see that one coming! I wonder what it means when Lilith said that she sent Ruby far far away, Is Ruby in hell? Will she and Dean see each other there? Will they maybe try to get out of hell together? Or is Ruby some place else? How will they be able to bring the character of Ruby back when her body is obviously dead (killed when Bobby shot her :rolleyes: )? How can they bring Dean back when his body has been torn apart by the hellhound? Questions over questions. The curiosity is killing me and it can't be September soon enough. ;)

The entire time that Dean was attacked by the hellhound and Sam was being held against the wall by telekinesis courtesy of Lilith, I was hoping that Sam would able to break her hold on him and tap into his powers some way and save Dean. Alas, this did not happen. :( I don't think that Sam used his powers when Lilith hit him with the while light death spell. I think he was immune to her white light of death because of the demon blood inside of him (just like he was immune to the demon virus in "Croatoan"). Personally, I was disappointed that Sam did not use his powers in that instance. I would have loved to see them unleashed (maybe subconciously) just in time to save Dean. Lilith being truly afraid of Sam when her death spell did not work on him was awesome! :D She was so afraid that she actually left Ruby's body, which is a demon's way of fleeing I guess. Yay for Sam and his powers!

The last two scenes of the episode were almost unbearable for me to watch. Sam crying over his brother's death was heartbreaking and made me sob so hard as well. The very last scene of the finale is probably the most painful scene I have ever seen on this show. :( Dean, all bloody and beaten, being all alone, crying for Sam's help, for anyone's help - words fail me to describe the anguish I feel while watching this scene. :cutecry: Damn you, Kripke! You better get Dean out of there as soon as possible, I cannot stand this! Seeing Dean die and seeing him in hell (or whereever he is right now) has truly traumatised me. I guess that's an indication of really great, powerful television but personally I could have done without this experience. :( It is going to be a very long summer!

[Llywela]

I get where Dean is coming from with the whole stop being martyrs thing, breaking the circle of self-sacrifice for their family. And on the one hand, I agree with him. However, I'm not sure that Dean is right about Sam using his powers being too risky. Yes it would have been dangerous but what if Sam's powers really could have saved Dean without Sam being consumed by his powers? I think one of the favourite things in this episode for me was the discovery that Sam's powers were not gone but have only been dormant. :2party: I have always been fascinated by his powers and I hope they will explored in an in-depth manner in season 4. And, as most of you know, I'm not averse to the idea of seeing dark Sam. They have been foreshadowing and teasing us with that particular storyline for years now and I for one would like to finally see it played out on screen. I'm so curious as to what Sam's powers exactly are, whether he will be able to handle them or not. I understand Dean's reservations but I wished that Sam would have tapped into his powers to save Dean.
What Dean was really afraid of was Sam being beholden to Ruby. If Sam had turned to Ruby for help, and allowed her to be the one who unlocked his powers, that would give her all kinds of power over him - no different than if he made a crossroads deal of his own to sell his soul. She described him as having a bomb inside of him, and wanted to use it - she sees him as a weapon. Imagine that weapon in the hands of a demon. Her true motivations and ambitions remain unknown.

Sam unlocking his abilities by himself, in the heat of the struggle, that's dangerous enough - we saw what it did to Ava and Jake in similar circumstances. But to allow a demon to do it for him? Incredibly dangerous - not only in terms of the potential loss of Sam's humanity and soul, but also for everyone around him if Ruby/any other demon then gained control of him and made use of him as a weapon.

That was why Dean was so willing to die, to prevent that happening. It was a choice between him and Sam, and Dean will always, always choose Sam ahead of himself.

[Parker]

I met Katie Cassidy last weekend, and she is definitely 100% back for season four, she has her contract signed and everything, :D And she said she was back playing Ruby, so I have no idea what happened to her or where she is, but I know we'll be seeing her again. She said there was a lot more about Ruby they had to tell, so she was definitely going to be coming back. And she said she sprained her ankle filming this episode as they made her run in those high heels and she fell, aww bless!

Anyway, was just catching up on what people were saying about this eppy when I read this, so figured I'd respond. I didnt read everythng so if someone else has already answered this, my bad!

SJ
xox
Awesome news! I love her character and really think is alot more to explore, plus she's really hot :D

[LRae12]

It doesn't seem to me that anyone has discussed in great detail yet what exactly transpired between Sam and Lilith with the white flashy light thing. It seems the consensus here is that it was her power - the white light - that was either deflected or absorbed by Sam. Which I was surprised to read. My take on the eppy as I was watching it, was that she put her hand up, and Sam somehow tapped into his powers out of complete desperation and grief from watching Dean be killed, almost a reflex, and didn't even realize that he did it until it was over. Then, Lilith's reaction, naturally was to flee - like she did out of Ruby's body. That was just my initial reaction to that scene.

I have to say my favorite scene was definitely the Bon Jovi scene....Bon Jovi can rock - on occassion! :roll: The boys trying to sing was so comical....especially Sam - his voice cracking on the high notes...very sweet.

I actually liked Ruby this eppy. And how DID she get out of the trap? Her line, 'what you don't know about me could fill a book' I think was a great foreshadowing to her character next season. I hope we get to see her and Dean together on the other side of hell, trying to bust out together. It'll be neat to see how Dean's perspective changes from the other side. I'm wondering if they'll make him a demon next season. Kind of like Cole on charmed, walking the fine line between good and evil. That would be rather interesting to watch. I'm also wondering now how much time will have elapsed between the end of this season and the beginning of the next. I think it'd be cool to see Darth-Sam - all broody and bad-ass like we got a glimpse of this season in the Groundhog day eppy.

Loved Bobby in this eppy....how he considers himself family, and his gruff way that he told them they better not be stopping every 10 minutes to pee....:lol:

Ok, so Dean was seeing the demonic faces of the demons.....so what does that say of the way he saw Sam at the beginning of the episode? That's an interesting aspect to ponder.

Gosh, why isn't it September yet?

[galathea]

It doesn't seem to me that anyone has discussed in great detail yet what exactly transpired between Sam and Lilith with the white flashy light thing. It seems the consensus here is that it was her power - the white light - that was either deflected or absorbed by Sam. Which I was surprised to read. My take on the eppy as I was watching it, was that she put her hand up, and Sam somehow tapped into his powers out of complete desperation and grief from watching Dean be killed, almost a reflex, and didn't even realize that he did it until it was over. Then, Lilith's reaction, naturally was to flee - like she did out of Ruby's body. That was just my initial reaction to that scene. I too thought that Sam just unconsciously used his powers. Before Lilith cast her white light death spell on Sam, she easily handled him, pinned him to the wall, so her powers did affect him then, but after Lilith used her spell and it didn't work, she couldn't even pin him to the wall anymore, she was absolutely powerless before she fled the scene. I guess that's where the whole 'absorption' theory comes from. Anyway, something happened with Sam during that white flash, it's just unclear what exactly.

I hope we get to see her and Dean together on the other side of hell, trying to bust out together. It'll be neat to see how Dean's perspective changes from the other side. I seriously doubt we get to see something like that. Kripke mentioned many times that they don't have the budget to film 'hell-scenes'.

I'm wondering if they'll make him a demon next season. Kind of like Cole on charmed, walking the fine line between good and evil. That would be rather interesting to watch. I thought it was pretty clear from Malleus Malleficarum that it takes centuries to strip off humanity in hell and turn someone into a demon. John was in hell for nearly a year and he didn't turn into a demon either and I doubt Dean will stay there even a 10th of that time. :lol: With the Sam storyline already being centered around demonic powers I would actually find it repetitive and annoying to have Dean become a demon. Not to mention that with Dean, who considers his humanity his most important trait, it would be beyond cruel to turn him and I personally think that would destroy the character. :s

Ok, so Dean was seeing the demonic faces of the demons.....so what does that say of the way he saw Sam at the beginning of the episode? That's an interesting aspect to ponder. That was simply a hallucination which all persons doomed to hell experience. All deal makers in Crossroad Blues actually had the same hallucination. Evan about his beloved wife and the Doctor with the motel clerk. So I doubt there's anything else to it. Even Bobby calls him on that. :)

[Vampmaster]

It doesn't seem to me that anyone has discussed in great detail yet what exactly transpired between Sam and Lilith with the white flashy light thing. It seems the consensus here is that it was her power - the white light - that was either deflected or absorbed by Sam. Which I was surprised to read. My take on the eppy as I was watching it, was that she put her hand up, and Sam somehow tapped into his powers out of complete desperation and grief from watching Dean be killed, almost a reflex, and didn't even realize that he did it until it was over. Then, Lilith's reaction, naturally was to flee - like she did out of Ruby's body. That was just my initial reaction to that scene.

Hi there LRae12 welcome to the discussion!

I have to say that I pretty much agree with what you have stated. It’s either Sam tapping into his own powers to a certain extent showing the truthfulness of Ruby’s statement about being able to knock Lilith off the map. In fact I would near enough guess that with the appropriate time needed to embrace his powers. Lilith would have been finding herself white flashed. Whether she’d have been strong enough to survive a turn around of her own attack now that’s up for speculation. The reaction of Lilith did amuse me though the shock on her face made it quite clear that wasn’t what she was expecting. So what was it about Sam that she feared?

I actually liked Ruby this eppy. And how DID she get out of the trap? Her line, 'what you don't know about me could fill a book' I think was a great foreshadowing to her character next season. I hope we get to see her and Dean together on the other side of hell, trying to bust out together. It'll be neat to see how Dean's perspective changes from the other side. I'm wondering if they'll make him a demon next season. Kind of like Cole on charmed, walking the fine line between good and evil. That would be rather interesting to watch. I'm also wondering now how much time will have elapsed between the end of this season and the beginning of the next. I think it'd be cool to see Darth-Sam - all broody and bad-ass like we got a glimpse of this season in the Groundhog day eppy.

Oh yes I have to agree about Ruby and as I said in my original review of the episode. I am pretty certain the writers are trying to make clear to us that Ruby is higher in the demon hierarchy than we’d give her credit from ever since her defeat in MM. Oh I don’t know about the idea of Ruby and Dean meeting in hell certainly if they are both struggling to get out to no avail it would be ok, but if it’s a case of Ruby getting out of their I will be majorly pissed off. Firstly because I am convinced she wouldn’t have been out of hell in the first place if it weren’t for the devil’s gate in AHBL and secondly I want it to be SAM whos frees Dean. As for the idea of evil Dean I somehow don’t see the writers going in that direction. After all they have been teasing us with the idea of evil Sam ever since S2’s “Hunted” and have hesitated to go all out.

Loved Bobby in this eppy....how he considers himself family, and his gruff way that he told them they better not be stopping every 10 minutes to pee....

Ok, so Dean was seeing the demonic faces of the demons.....so what does that say of the way he saw Sam at the beginning of the episode? That's an interesting aspect to ponder.
Oh Bobby is quite easily my favourite of the recurring characters in supernatural. In fact he is one of the only ones who I’d be willing to accept as a main character. He was brilliant I especially loved the line “Family don’t end with blood” which really at times can be one of the truest statements someone could make.

As for the matter of Dean seeing Sam while being close to the “veil” I don’t Sam would have looked differently. From what I could tell generally Dean could see things of purely demonic nature such as Demons or hell hounds. Sam on the other hand is not a demon. He is still by all accounts human only with the ability of a demon. After all it was important to the YED that Sam remains a human rather than a demon so he could open the Devil’s gate. :roll: