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View Full Version : Buffy 8.14 "Wolves at the Gate", Part III Spoiler Discussion Thread



KingofCretins
01-05-08, 09:56 PM
Dark Horse has released a preview of the next issue.

Buffy 8.14 Preview (http://www.darkhorse.com/profile/preview.php?theid=14-831&p=0)

Very cool and creepy way to jump into the second half of the arc, with Aiko strung up on the side of a Tokyo building... these vamps would make Angelus proud.

holypotatoes
01-05-08, 10:31 PM
BTW KoC your link brings us to the last page of the preview. Not that it matters, I was just letting you know. :D

Why does Buffy always have to cut down the bodies?! Someone else needs to start doing it. This girls done it way too many times. :lol: So apparently after cutting down the girl Buffy ends up with a mummy. Huh. Didn't expect that. :p We'll see what happens I guess.

Nina
01-05-08, 10:55 PM
That was creepy, and the mummy thing is a little bit weird. But it's a nice preview, it predicts a good issue.

LaJaula
01-05-08, 11:51 PM
Oooh, very chilling. I actually gasped out loud. So far, so very good. Of course, if she follows this with an "everyone sucks but me" speech, then all bets are off. But I have hope. :) Also, I wonder how this is going to tie in with Dracula? You can't really have a 'funny' Xander/Renee/Dracula scene right after Aiko's just been brutally slaughtered, y'know? So *crosses fingers* maybe all of the Xander-buttmonkey scenes are done with.

stormwreath
02-05-08, 01:55 AM
Does everything really need to be in spoiler boxes when the thread title itself says 'spoiler'? But anyway:

1. The page where Buffy carries Aiko's body past the other people into what I assume is their Japanese base is very reminiscent of the similar scene in Fray. If the next panel starts with her saying "I have something to say" we'll know it's deliberate. :)

2. On the first page, someone standing close to Buffy is reading out the Japanese text and translating it into English. Given that Satsu is stood right next to Buffy in the next panel, I think it's pretty obvious who that was. Which does answer one question that cam up a while ago: Satsu is not only of Japanese ethnicity, she speaks Japanese. (There was speculation that she might be Asian-American or similar rather than an actual Nihonjin.)

Weredog
02-05-08, 03:46 AM
It's about damn time we have a preview. Ah, but at least there's only less than a week 'til its release.

Oooh, very chilling. I actually gasped out loud. So far, so very good. Of course, if she follows this with an "everyone sucks but me" speech, then all bets are off.

I think we can all agree that at this point in the story, "everybody sucks but me" is the last thought on Buffy's mind. ;) It's more like "I, and only I, suck." But, honestly man, poor Buffy. She's being given equal number of guilt trips -- if not more -- than she got in season five. It's ashamed none of her Scooby friends are having any heart-to-heart talks about her issues. Xander didn't give her much comfort in "Anywhere But Here" with his "maybe you're not supposed to feel it." I guess that's why she turned to Satsu...

vampmogs
02-05-08, 04:30 AM
Wow. Just wow. :(

I was actually pretty moved by those pages. They were horrifying and I agree with King, Angelus would be proud. Seeing Buffy carrying Aiko's corpse was horrifying, and seeing the expressions on all the other slayer's faces was just terrible.

Also answers another question where more of Buffy's stolen money went, those slayers are living in pretty fancy digs.

KingofCretins
02-05-08, 05:54 AM
Stormwreath, it's my own habit, not like site policy -- even on a spoiler thread, I usually spoiler until the book itself is out, just for the sake of the mis-clickers. After it's released, they're on their own in a spoiler thread, IMO.

As psyche-out ploys go, it's really awesome. Now I'm really torn... I don't know if I want Toru and the gang to just be one offs, they are pretty cool looking.

Now, I do have to wonder something, and it goes along with my "Angelus would be proud remark" -- (spoilers for 8.17 cover) if that really is Drusilla on the Jeanty cover with Harth... this is the kind of thing that has her fingerprints all over it. It does make me wonder if she's coming back as some sort of prominent figure this season.

allthings
02-05-08, 09:21 AM
Poor Buffy. I also gasped at the preview, total deja vu from 'Get It Done'. I thought this arc was going to suck but those first pages have pulled me in emotionally and Im really looking forward to it now :D

And Im also expecting a speech but I know it wont be of the 'everbody sucks' variety. Buffy is gonna deinately feel like she hasnt changed the world at all :(

Wolfie Gilmore
02-05-08, 09:42 AM
Oh god. That brought tears to my eyes. The silent panels were beautiful. Reminds me of something I cannot remember. Oh, I know! Siegfried's funeral. Doo doo, do dooooo do do do do doooo. Ok, I'm singing it to myself.[/randomwagner]

bishopcruz
02-05-08, 05:06 PM
Nice opening, a level of creepy that we haven't get achieved this season, which is very good. For all his faults, it looks like Goddard can still do creepy well.

Wonder how long Toru was up there? I'm amazed no one noticed before Buffy and Co.

Now to touch on what Stormwreath said about no knowing that Satsu is a native, we kinda knew that since #11, in the scene where we saw Satsu getting her powers she was pretty clearly in a Japanese school uniform, (though Japanese high schools don't have lockers as such). So since then I have been of the impression that they are at least trying to make her authentic japanese. I still say she would have had to live in the US for a few years to speak english as well as she does.

I have hope for this arc again, last issue was rather bleh, but here's hoping we get some cool stuff from the issues that remain, and that the pace picks up a bit. I mean less happens per issue in these than in NFFY!

Sosa lola
02-05-08, 05:46 PM
So since then I have been of the impression that they are at least trying to make her authentic japanese. I still say she would have had to live in the US for a few years to speak english as well as she does.

No need for that. I know many who speak perfect English, with an American accent as well, and they had never set a foot in America. American movies, songs and novels were the reason they spoke English so well.

Three more preview pages for season 8 #14 have been added to the ones released yesterday.

BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER SEASON 8 #14 - NEWSARAMA (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=155726)

http://i.newsarama.com/DarkHorsenew/Buffy/14/buffy2__14_pg_04_fnl.jpg

http://i.newsarama.com/DarkHorsenew/Buffy/14/buffy2__14_pg_05_fnl.jpg

http://i.newsarama.com/DarkHorsenew/Buffy/14/buffy2__14_pg_06_fnl.jpg

LaJaula
02-05-08, 11:33 PM
1. Poor Buffy. She looks so upset and lonely.
2. Awwww, to Willow's, "And Xander!"
3. Where's Renee? Running behind, I guess.
4. I really don't know what to think about Drac's last comment. I hope we're supposed to be disgusted with him, not laugh, because....that's not funny.
5. Dracula looks kinda like Johnny Depp.

holypotatoes
03-05-08, 12:31 AM
4. I really don't know what to think about Drac's last comment. I hope we're supposed to be disgusted with him, not laugh, because....that's not funny.

:err: I laughed. Is that bad? :lol: Come on, it's a comic. They're not always supposed to be serious. Especially in Buffy. There's always funny moments in very serious ones. Or I just laugh at inappropriate times, it is possible. :D

I'm liking it so far. Not really used to seeing the actual comics pages since I'm a transcript reader but they look pretty good. I still don't know why they wrapped her up like a mummy though. I mean there are many ways to wrap a body up but why would you spend time to put a wrap around it like a mummy? :s

vampmogs
03-05-08, 04:28 AM
Thanks for the extra pages Sosa! :hug:

That's a nice seen between Buffy and Willow. People have wondered if Willow even likes Buffy anymore and I think this shows that she still does.

Poor Buffy, she looks really broken up over this. The writers are doing such a better job with her this season. Some were wondering if we were going to get a "everybody sucks but me" speech, but I doubt it. She looks really upset and is showing her emotions which is always a good thing, she's not trying to hide how she feels. So kudos for Buffy.

And Drac's comment about Aiko's body... I think it was meant to be disgusting and humorous in that really dark kinda way. But they're trying to show that he's very much the evil bastard he's meant to be. I'm happy for that, I didn't want the writers to forgot their dealing with a vampire here.

Also I agree that it was sweet to see Willow's enthusiastic "and Xander!' :)

stormwreath
03-05-08, 11:47 AM
Me, I think it's adorable the way Willow...
sniffs her armpits after Dracula accuses her of having an "acrid stench". Poor Willow...

Weredog
03-05-08, 08:07 PM
Ahhh, I love Willow. She's so adorable in these pages. I'm really feeling the Scooby Core reassembling themselves. The season began with just Xander and Buffy, Willow's drifting herself back in (not easily though), and Giles.... well, he's coming up, I'm sure! :hug: I like this season.

And I'm also loving Dracula's suit. That's what I'm talking about! Ditch that tacky cape, and go for the high-class Victorian suit. Honestly, had he been dressed that way in "Buffy VS. Dracula," I might have enjoyed the episode... :)

I'm liking this arc alot already! Although does anyone find this arc to be very Jane Espenson-esque? I feel like it does -- partially because it's a Buffy comedy episode which is Espenson's style, as opposed to Goddard's. Oh, well, like I said, I like it so far.

alexa
04-05-08, 12:00 AM
Hey guys. Got back from Europe yesterday, just read #13 and the new preview.
Also loved Willow in 13 and what we've seen of 14. I'm a bit confused because Buffy's doing the wrong thing then the right thing a lot this series. Can't get an idea of what's going on with her. Also loving Dracula's presence, funny and arch.

KingofCretins
04-05-08, 02:13 AM
Something I was thinking about after 8.13 appears to have come to fruition in these preview pages. The "Angelus would be proud" moment? Absolutely confirms that Toru *wanted* Buffy to come, and likely wanted her to come in force. Lambs to the slaughter, ducks in a barrel, mass de-Slayerization neat as you please. The plan anyway, but no idea if it's going to happen in full or in part. I'm still in the school of thought that it would be sorta cool if Joss brought the Slayer population way down. It sort of tracks with the season so far -- I think of the prologue summaries as having thematic and narrative purpose, and in the first several it seemed to always point to the estimated number of Slayers in the world. To quote the great American philosophers Wayne Campbell and Garth Algar, "it seemed extraneous at the time".

holypotatoes
04-05-08, 02:24 AM
Something I was thinking about after 8.13 appears to have come to fruition in these preview pages. The "Angelus would be proud" moment? Absolutely confirms that Toru *wanted* Buffy to come, and likely wanted her to come in force. Lambs to the slaughter, ducks in a barrel, mass de-Slayerization neat as you please. The plan anyway, but no idea if it's going to happen in full or in part. I'm still in the school of thought that it would be sorta cool if Joss brought the Slayer population way down. It sort of tracks with the season so far -- I think of the prologue summaries as having thematic and narrative purpose, and in the first several it seemed to always point to the estimated number of Slayers in the world. To quote the great American philosophers Wayne Campbell and Garth Algar, "it seemed extraneous at the time".

Wasn't there like a quote somewhere that said the slayer line would take a big hit? That quote makes perfect sense if this is in fact what they're going to do. The whole "Lambs to the slaughter" seems to be what's happening. Although, are all the slayers meeting up in Japan? If so, that doesn't make too much sense tbh. I understand they're up against a major opponent (since the villain has the scythe) but I don't think it would be that great of an idea to bring everyone there.

Is there any news on Dawn yet? You know, how she will get to Japan, is she prego's? :s 'Cause you know these are important questions that need to be answered. :p Hopefully they'll be answered soon. I'm still banking on her arriving there like Falkor from the Never Ending Story. Just wait, it'll happen. *nods*

ThePoet's<3
04-05-08, 07:54 AM
Pretty grim so far but I'm actually quite proud of them to go for the visual. I found myself thinking, "There should be more blood!" "We should get a closeup of her face!" "The bite marks!" Ah comics.

Poor Buffy. There's no other role for her in this Season except "Serious", is there? I keep wanting a Buffybot moment or at least one issue where something completely silly happens!

I don't believe all the Slayers are in Japan - just the ones from McCastle. There are still groups deployed elsewhere - like Andrew's group. Aiko seemed to be there on her own.

And why did they wrap her like a mummy? Is that Japanese custom?

Loving Drac!! I was actually surprised he shared a secret Vampire capturing recipe with Willow!! Bad form Drac!! Haven't you learned Vampire secrets are NOT to be shared?!? You owe Spike another 11 pounds for that one!! Naughty!

And yes - he looks very Johnny Depp in Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory - or - Legend of Sleepy Hollow. What a prima donna!

Does someone have a copy of the cover with Dru and Harth?!? I would LOVE to see it!!

Koos
04-05-08, 08:26 AM
I'm still in the school of thought that it would be sorta cool if Joss brought the Slayer population way down.

I certainly hope not! Loath the idea. By the way, they are there in Tokyo with maximal 100 Slayers. That's about 1/18 th of the total amount of Slayers. That's not what it takes to get the Slayer population way down.


It sort of tracks with the season so far -- I think of the prologue summaries as having thematic and narrative purpose,

Prologue summeries? Never saw them.


Wasn't there like a quote somewhere that said the slayer line would take a big hit?

That was according to Fray-canon. It has not been established if Fray would be used as the unasked spoilery and miserable future of the Buffy canon. However, it has been stated that in this arc the Slayers would suffer a massive hit.


Haven't you learned Vampire secrets are NOT to be shared?!?

It is never smart to share secrets which could be used against you.

Dracula has all the potential to become a very interesting character in this season.

vampmogs
04-05-08, 09:52 AM
Poor Buffy. There's no other role for her in this Season except "Serious", is there? I keep wanting a Buffybot moment or at least one issue where something completely silly happens!

Oh I dunno. She was joking around with Xander earlier in the series, had that funny moment when the Buffy/Angel/Spike threesome was revealed by Ethan, was joking around with the potentials during their training and was giggling and hugging Willow in 'The Long Way Home.' I think she's been happier and less serious this season than she had been in season six or season seven.



Prologue summeries? Never saw them.

They're on the back of the front cover on every single issue :)


That was according to Fray-canon. It has not been established if Fray would be used as the unasked spoilery and miserable future of the Buffy canon. However, it has been stated that in this arc the Slayers would suffer a massive hit.

I think Holypotatoes was thinking of the "the slayers will take a big hit" remark for the Issue #15.

holypotatoes
04-05-08, 03:27 PM
I think Holypotatoes was thinking of the "the slayers will take a big hit" remark for the Issue #15.
Thanks Mogs, that was it. I can't seem to differentiate between any of these issues. :lol: Don't know the names of half of them so I always have to keep going back to see what issue you guys are always referencing.

I kind of want the villains to make like a gigantic slayer depowering device. Instead of just having the small disc, 'cause that would be awesome. I was never a fan of having all these slayers now so I kind of hope they thin the heard a little. :p

vampmogs
04-05-08, 03:42 PM
Thanks Mogs, that was it. I can't seem to differentiate between any of these issues. :lol: Don't know the names of half of them so I always have to keep going back to see what issue you guys are always referencing.

I kind of want the villains to make like a gigantic slayer depowering device. Instead of just having the small disc, 'cause that would be awesome. I was never a fan of having all these slayers now so I kind of hope they thin the heard a little. :p

The 'big hit' will be very interesting. I think the three most likely scenerios, all of which aren't very original I must say, are;

1) The slayers return home to find the Castle's gone BOOM!

2) Satsu or Renee is revealed as the traitor Allie did make a comment about, wait until you see the end of Issu #15, in regards to Buffy/Satsu. ... or someone else is revealed as the traitor, but I think these two are the most likely.

3) A lot of the slayers, if not all of them in Japan, are turned back into regulars girls, excluding Buffy.

That's my three guesses for the 'big hit.'

holypotatoes
04-05-08, 03:49 PM
The 'big hit' will be very interesting. I think the three most likely scenerios, all of which aren't very original I must say, are;

1) The slayers return home to find the Castle's gone BOOM!

2) Satsu or Renee is revealed as the traitor Allie did make a comment about, wait until you see the end of Issu #15, in regards to Buffy/Satsu. ... or someone else is revealed as the traitor, but I think these two are the most likely.

3) A lot of the slayers, if not all of them in Japan, are turned back into regulars girls, excluding Buffy.

That's my three guesses for the 'big hit.'
Oh man what if all of the above happen?!!!!! :eek: THAT would be awesome! My god think about it. Deslayerizing only the girls in Japan isn't really taking that big of a hit like Koos said above, about 1/18th but if at the same time you blow up the castle which I thought everyone left from to go to Japan but you never know there could still be people there. That's a large hit. I'm not really sure what this whole traitor thing will do. Maybe the traitor tells where all the other girls are so those girls' castles/headquarters get blown to bits as well. This sounds like a total fanfic but it's a comic, you never know what might happen. I kind of want the little disc thingy to be turned into like a satellite. You know, that ginormous and can cause a lot of damage when used. That would be exciting.

Wolfie Gilmore
04-05-08, 04:00 PM
If they made this as a feature film, they should recast Dracula as Johnny Depp (erm...well, vice versa). He could do a beautiful job of what's proving to be a great character (well, not that the Count had anything to prove to me). He seems genuinely alien in the same way that Anya does sometimes. The way he asks if anyone's going to finish eating the dead body of the slayer is a brilliant touch.

Koos
04-05-08, 05:38 PM
They're on the back of the front cover on every single issue :)

Checked it. And here I thought I had devoured it ;)


1) The slayers return home to find the Castle's gone BOOM!

Not really a massive hit to the Slayers.



2) Satsu or Renee is revealed as the traitor Allie did make a comment about, wait until you see the end of Issu #15, in regards to Buffy/Satsu.

That would be a massive hit for the Scoobies, but would it be a massive hit for the Slayers? I don't think so, because for the Slayers in general it doesn't matter who the traitor is and maybe not even if there's a traitor. The point for the Slayers in general is that there is an powerful enemy; not the details.




3) A lot of the slayers, if not all of them in Japan, are turned back into regulars girls, excluding Buffy.

I think this is gonna be the case this issue. (And the Dawn thing).


Deslayerizing only the girls in Japan isn't really taking that big of a hit like Koos said above, about 1/18th That would be exciting.

Deslayerizing could in theory be done worldwide, which is my guess actually. The killing of Slayers in Japan is only about 1/18th. Perhaps you could consider this as a massive hit on the Slayers.

All things combined would definitely be a massive hit.


If they made this as a feature film, they should recast Dracula as Johnny Depp (erm...well, vice versa).

Joss wish :)

KingofCretins
04-05-08, 06:04 PM
I think a mass deslayerization would have to actually *spare* most of the ones in Tokyo for plot purposes. Willow has time to counterspell locally or something. But I also doubt that would happen. Even if we assume Buffy and Faith, Slayers of another color, would be immune, we already know that at the very least Vi and Kennedy, neither of whom are ostensibly in Tokyo, are still going to be in fighting shape for the next story arc.

I *do* think the BHC getting blown up would be a big hit to the Slayers -- it's their equivalent to the historic burnings of Moscow, Paris, or Washington, D.C. And, whether it's this plot development or not, I do expect that the BHC being destroyed will occur sometime between 8.15 and 8.40.

I want to double check, but I don't think the reference to the last panel of 8.15 was a Buffy/Satsu reference specifically, but just of the "check out all our whacky surprises this season; that was just the first".

Anon
04-05-08, 06:13 PM
2) Satsu or Renee is revealed as the traitor Allie did make a comment about, wait until you see the end of Issu #15, in regards to Buffy/Satsu. ... or someone else is revealed as the traitor, but I think these two are the most likely.It's interesting how everyone else without exception seems to think that the 'closest, most unexpected' line refers to the traitor rather than the nature of the betrayal.


3) A lot of the slayers, if not all of them in Japan, are turned back into regulars girls, excluding Buffy.This is the most likely option, but there is no reason to assume it would be permanent. Actually, it wouldn't make much sense if it was since the ability to turn large numbers of slayers into normal girls permanently would render Twilight all but obsolete. If it was permanent then that would be the end of the season.

holypotatoes
04-05-08, 06:22 PM
Wait when is the Fray crossover comic happening? 'Cause let's say that the slayers do get deslayerized in this issue and Willow decides that she can just redo the spell. Well she would need the scythe to do that right and they still haven't recovered it at this point. What if Buffy get's pulled into the future when she was looking for her scythe and ends up meeting Fray and they then decide to use Fray's scythe to do the spell to then change all the slayers back. Once the change happens Buffy is then able to recover her scythe and give Fray back hers. Huh! Oh yeah, it could work kids. *nods* :D

KingofCretins
04-05-08, 06:31 PM
The next arc, the one you're asking about, is "Time Of Your Life", 8.16 through 8.19. And, yeah, that's a way to go. Or even Buffy herself is deslayerized and has to go get it back or something. There's a lot of ways it could go.

Anon
04-05-08, 08:13 PM
holypotatoes + KOC, if you look at the preview for issue 8.16, you will see Buffy and Fray fighting each other, both holding a Scythe, so neither of your suggestions could be true. Buffy definitely gets the Scythe back before that arc and pretty much has to be a slayer at the time.

Koos
04-05-08, 08:52 PM
It's interesting how everyone else without exception seems to think that the 'closest, most unexpected' line refers to the traitor rather than the nature of the betrayal.

Not really. Pretty much everything about that line has been discussed, including the nature of the betrayel. However, the possibility of a real-life traitor is there and that's thus an option for a massive hit.

holypotatoes
04-05-08, 10:40 PM
holypotatoes + KOC, if you look at the preview for issue 8.16, you will see Buffy and Fray fighting each other, both holding a Scythe, so neither of your suggestions could be true. Buffy definitely gets the Scythe back before that arc and pretty much has to be a slayer at the time.

I thought about that too but what if they fight after all we just said. Maybe Fray's the one that will betray Buffy some how. The betrayer doesn't need to be someone really close to Buffy just someone she has some trust in. She could think of Fray as a trustworthy person only to have her all of a sudden go against her. There are tons of things that can happen we just have to wait and see what happens. :D

Tom
05-05-08, 03:59 PM
The opening of this comic takes me back to "Get It Done". Especially the look on Buffy's face when she says "help me cut her down". Looks like we're going to see how much Buffy's grown: or how much she hasn't, by how she hadnles this similar situation a year or so on. Should be interesting. This arc started off a warm hearted and witty and it is getting darker by the releases. I love it.

allthings
06-05-08, 12:08 PM
In last Issue, as that evil vamp chick flew up into the Sky with the Scythe u can clearly see a huge disc on top of a building, exactly like the one that de-slayered Aiko(sp?)

alexa
07-05-08, 04:57 AM
In last Issue, as that evil vamp chick flew up into the Sky with the Scythe u can clearly see a huge disc on top of a building, exactly like the one that de-slayered Aiko(sp?)

Yeah I assumed that was something to be used to de-slayer many more girls. Was a strange method.. red ray going into her eyes/head?

allthings
07-05-08, 09:09 AM
Yeah I assumed that was something to be used to de-slayer many more girls. Was a strange method.. red ray going into her eyes/head?


I know. I really hope everyone isnt hit with it in the next 2 issues. Do you think Willow could tap into the scythe again if that happened, and if they get the scythe back?

vampmogs
07-05-08, 10:36 AM
I think they'll def get the scythe back at the end of this arc. Buffy has it when being taken to Fray's time, and Buffy and Willow are supposed to head to Newyork to find out more about the scythe.

allthings
07-05-08, 10:59 AM
I think they'll def get the scythe back at the end of this arc. Buffy has it when being taken to Fray's time, and Buffy and Willow are supposed to head to Newyork to find out more about the scythe.

Oh god yeah, oopsie. The fact that Buffy and co head to NY in the Fray arc makes me think that it may need to be used again by Willow before the end of this arc now

KingofCretins
07-05-08, 05:04 PM
SPOILER discussion of 8.14 below the quotes...


On top of that, I got a bad case of the dizzies last night and
almost let a vamp stake me. With my own stake!

-- Buffy Summers, "Helpless"


He just beat me.

-- Buffy Summers, "Fool For Love"

Well, 8.14 jumps the arc and the season back on track with the best read since "A Beautiful Sunset" -- nothing gratuitous or soapy here. The 'shippy stuff all seems to follow from the characters and the story, and is more or less all entertaining. I'm especially loving the Xander/Renee thing right now. Girl definitely knows how to look cute in the schoolgirl get up. It's nice to see her take the initiative, too, and kiss him while he hems and haws over whether or not hunting a misty vamp with Buffy counts as a date. Even Dracula thinks they're too cute to watch. I really look forward to seeing where they take this relati--

SSHHRRACK!!!!

Oh. Nevermind.

Well, at least we can take Renee off the list of traitor suspects, courtesy of Toru's brilliantly played trap and the cruel, cruel bitter irony of Renee being skewered to death, staked through the heart, even, by the very scythe that made her into a Slayer.

What was it Buffy says about her saying the word and some girl dying? My biggest concern about this plan of marching everyone off to Tokyo and going boots tromping over the hillside after this enemy was that it would be Dirty Girls all over again. And, while they at least had some idea of what they were facing this time, they still took too much for granted. And now, as then, they pay in dearest blood. I was really getting to like you, Renee.

Xander will obviously take this badly, and not just because it's his face her blood sprayed on when she was killed, but because he's again lost the girl. Anya, killed. Cordy, dead and all but forgotten and unacknowledged. And now Renee. The very night of their first kiss. I really sincerely hope he gets to be the one that does for Toru now. It's a comic book medium, he's one of the 'superheroes' in it, he is occasionally allowed to be the one who 'gets' the bad guy, and this would be the *perfect time* for that. I don't care if its Buffy's name on the cover -- Toru embarrassed her and stole her scythe. Toru murdered Xander's girl and cover him in her blood. Weigh it.

On less murderous notes, I love that Dawn gets to get in the fight and is not, in fact, a bad guy. She's a weapon, and a damn useful one. Her being 'ported in reminded me of that scene in "Galaxy Quest" :) I also loved Renee, bless her, playing the role of bait so well.

Things are on a warm simmer on the Buffy/Satsu front, with Buffy actually... being a spaz about her safety and sort of infantalizing her, however she wants to dress it up. And Satsu not having any part of it. I *really* like that. Satsu needed a scene to get her strength back from all that public embarrassment in 8.12, and that was it. Willow's pep talk probably did help. But, I'm still leaning about 60% toward Satsu being the traitor anyway, so it all may be moot if she's just acting anyway.

RuFio
07-05-08, 05:50 PM
Can anyone believe what just happened to her in Wolves @ the gate P3!?!?!

Skippcomet
07-05-08, 06:44 PM
...I wonder if this means Xander's going to shoot up the list of possible traitors?

Enisy
07-05-08, 07:04 PM
I'm also curious about whether this means Xander/Buffy is going to shoot up the list of possible 'ships.

(Haven't gotten the issue yet, but I'm a spoiler h0r.)

Koos
07-05-08, 08:19 PM
I'm also curious about whether this means Xander/Buffy is going to shoot up the list of possible 'ships.

(Haven't gotten the issue yet, but I'm a spoiler h0r.)


More likely.

I haven't read it yet, but this spoilor kind of suprised me, even though I had expected it at with Renee at some point (or her being the traitor as long as Xander broke his relationship with her), because of Buffy/Xander.

I, thus, don't think this fact alone doesn't move the chances that he's going to be traitor. I think it gives him thinking about dating a Slayer. And this is (a theory of my own) similar to Buffy fear dating Xander, the fear of losing him. Everyone in Slayer's cirkel, afterall, dies or leave.

I'm suprised to see that Renee died in this issue, because I thought she was on the alternative cover of issue 15.

KingofCretins
07-05-08, 08:23 PM
I think the odds increased on both fronts, despite the fact that it's probably an either/or type of thing -- hard to think that both could happen (although not impossible in Joss' style, in either order). But, as for the 'shippy side, while we had been sitting on 18 months of available grieving time for Anya, this pain is fresh. Unless they some how end up flying together in grief/stress driven passion like it's an episode of "Lost", Xander's going to need to patch up emotionally.

I can't believe they just up and killed her like that. Toru quickly becoming the most awful, hateful, villainous MOTW ever.

bishopcruz
07-05-08, 09:25 PM
To be fair, this doesn't negate Renee as the mole, it would in fact add to the bitter irony if she was.

But anyway, great issue overall, MUCH batter than the last one, though, Drew still isn't one of my favorite writers, he definitely did NAIL a few of the scenes.

Is it just me or was Jeanty off in his art a whole lot this issue. I'd been liking him more and more as of late, but some of the drawings of Xander and Dawn just seemed really off. The one that sticks in my mind is the first appearance of Dawn in the issue, really wierd.

Also, those gloves Dawn has have to be magic, or she'd be breaking her hands on the buildings no?

This brings up again, that as much as Buffy whines about all of her exes dying, NONE OF THEM HAVE!!!!!!! Ok, technically Spike did, but he came back, as did Angel. Parker is alive, Scott Hope is alive, Riley is alive (and possibly Twilight). Hell looking at what we actually know, those people who break up with her or leave end up having much happier and more fulfilling lives post-Buffy than they did pre.

Xander on the other hand has a much more awful list of exes. Cordy (BS death), Anya (evil, reformed, dead), Ampata (dead on first date, evil), Faith (turned evil, coma soon after boinking him, got better), The demon chick from S7 (evil and dead), and finally Renee (might have been spy, dead on first date).

Looking at those lists, Buffy seems kinda whiny.

Koos
07-05-08, 09:44 PM
This brings up again, that as much as Buffy whines about all of her exes dying, NONE OF THEM HAVE!!!!!!!

That's true, but in all fairness to Buffy, she never whined about all her exes dying. She fears that everybody she loves (not only her exes) either dies or leaves (for example Angel).

bishopcruz
07-05-08, 11:22 PM
That's true, but in all fairness to Buffy, she never whined about all her exes dying. She fears that everybody she loves (not only her exes) either dies or leaves (for example Angel).

To be fair though, Xander and Willow are still around, as is Dawn. As far as Exes leaving, isn't that usually the case. I guess I just kinda tumbled to this now, but I mean, exes don't usually stay around after a break-up. I suppose Riley left sooner than most, but it IS par the course.

I suppose since all of her ships have been kinda emo, she might figure that coupling sucks. But she's actually had one of the less tragic love lives in the verse.

KingofCretins
08-05-08, 01:08 AM
To be fair, this doesn't negate Renee as the mole, it would in fact add to the bitter irony if she was.

It does in the sense that this is a story that's being woven and told, not reality. I really don't think Joss would bother conceiving of a traitor storyline just to drop it completely cold like that without it having even been revealed. There's just no point to it. It's not "Lost" -- there's no actress that had to be written off abruptly.


That's true, but in all fairness to Buffy, she never whined about all her exes dying. She fears that everybody she loves (not only her exes) either dies or leaves (for example Angel).

Yeah, but that's kinda odd conceptually at that point... like me saying all my girlfriends dumped me or became President. Although in fairness, she still had months of pain from Angel being 'killed', and may even now think that Spike is dead. It's just not actually the case.

I hate to say it aloud, but I'm also starting to buy into the idea that Xander might really be the traitor. I effin' despise the notion with the very core of everything I've ever disliked in fiction, but it tracks. It would suck, but it tracks :( But, it would differentiate the traitor and the mole, because for Xander to turn on Buffy, this would be (or rather, however Buffy handles it) would be the shatterpoint of it. Not any prior treason.

I hate it because of its obviousness -- Xander loses love after love to Buffy's cause, always has feelings for her that keep him around, starts blaming her for those losses, seeing all her mistakes blah blah blah six years of being the sideman cakes. Deprive Buffy of her greatest moral asset at the time she needs it most, yadda yadda yadda, paint by numbers.

I'm still thinking 60/40 that the traitor is Satsu, but that's mostly because I'm putting my sincere and furious belief that Joss doesn't hate himself or his fans enough to turn a scooby bad ahead of the plot indicators. I really *hope* it's Satsu. I hope it's Leah, Satsu, and Rowena all together. I hope it's like one of those gags where the cop goes into a mob restaurant and everybody there is a gangster and *all* the Slayers are traitors -- any such plot is better than a scooby. But it's starting to feel that way.

But, what I do think is that the answer is in 8.15, or at least the foundation truly laid in 8.15. That's feeling like a turning point for Buffy's and Xander's mutual storyline for the season -- lovers, enemies, or allies. I think we'll find out the most likely answer on that last page of 8.15 that Allie referred to.

Maggie
08-05-08, 03:26 AM
It does in the sense that this is a story that's being woven and told, not reality. I really don't think Joss would bother conceiving of a traitor storyline just to drop it completely cold like that without it having even been revealed. There's just no point to it. It's not "Lost" -- there's no actress that had to be written off abruptly.

I agree that this would be lame. But Renee's apparent death makes me wonder about Allie's remark about the significance of Renee's last name -- which I had assumed to be Molter. I don't have the interview anywhere handy so I can't double-check what he said exactly. But if I've recalled it correctly, there's at least some reason to believe that more will be revealed about Renee, even if it is just some post mortem reveal.

I have absolutely no clue where things go from here. It was sad to see Renee get killed. But it doesn't seem like she and Xander were at a point yet where this would be a *major* trauma for him. So I'm not sure it's a plausible trigger for some hugely dramatic shift in his story. But what do I know?

vampmogs
08-05-08, 04:10 AM
Yeah I remember that as well Maggie, unless it was to through us off the scent.

Really major plot point here though, can't believe they killed Renee! I liked her so much and poor Xander. These vamps seriously mean business, anyone claiming season 8 was talking the easy way out (which I've seen claimed elsewhere) should re-think that after this.

ThePoet's<3
08-05-08, 04:45 AM
Poor Renee. What a way to go. I really wasn't expecting her to die - I did think she was the mole. And unless she is "resurrected" or she's not as badly hurt as she looked (I doubt that) then she's D-E-A-D.

KoC - you don't think they are setting up a scenario for Xander to leave Buffy also, do you? I was thinking about all the loss in her life and the complaining about it - as you say - her friends have lost loved ones around her as well!! As long as they are loyal friends to the Slayer they will endanger the one's they love.

As you pointed out Xander has been the tried and true side man for so long - unless he gets the Slayer what is his future?

Iis this to set up Buffy being utterly and completely alone?? Without friends, without family, ALONE?

I"m a little bored with the Satsu/Buffy thing now. I really didn't think Buffy would be so protective of Satsu. That was one of the problems with Riley. I hoped she had learned her lesson.

But wasn't it great to see Big Dawn come squashing through Tokyo?!? Loved it!


BTW - Am I missing the thread for Angel: ATF First Night Issue #7?? I didn't see one started - and there were some pretty interesting things going on in this issue!!!

ETA: I just started one - here's the link:
Angel: AtF - "First Night II" - Issue #7 (http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showpost.php?p=205585&postcount=1)

vampmogs
08-05-08, 05:48 AM
I think this paves the way for Buffy/Xander to be honest. There was no mistaking the Bander vibes earlier in the season;

* The dream with Buffy kissing Xander
* The close up shot of Xander's reaction to Amy's proposal of him trying to give Buffy a kiss
* Xander's uncomfortable ramblings of not checking Buffy out in the training room.
* Xander calling Buffy's bank robbery "incredibly sexy."
* In general how close-knit they've been all season

And, though I haven't got my hands on the issue yet, apparently Xander wonders wether or not it's classified as a date if he goes patrolling with Buffy.

If Satsu turns out to be the traitor I think it'll be all systems go for Bander, and even without her being the traitor, unless of course it's Xander (which even then makes it possible) I think Buffy/Xander is likely to happen.

Sacred Knight
08-05-08, 07:49 AM
I haven't gotten my hands on the issue yet either (I am also a spoiler fiend), but reading up I am curious as to whether or not Satsu's insistence to go "to the battlefield" might be of significance. I mean standing alone at face value it has the obvious significance of Satsu not wanting to be patronized by Buffy just because of their relationship, but I wonder if more could be to it. Obviously I'm still on the Satsu is the traitor camp (though like KoC I'm also wary because Xander would work if they wanted it, I just hope they don't), so I'm curious if her being there had anything to do with the trap set that allowed Renee to be killed. On the other hand from what I read I'm not seeing anything more involved in the deception other than Toru's own powers, so it might a stretch to imagine Satsu being a part of it or her needing to be there for it to succeed.

In any case though I want Satsu to be the traitor more than ever. I must admit I'm also bored of the pairing already; its just that even if the relationship isn't meant to last, which I doubt it is, the natural slow burn of a monthly comic series makes me not very eager to see them play it out very far as it'd take a long time. So I'm hoping for a quick kibosh and the best way to do that and give Satsu something cool to do is if she turned villain. And as a Xander fan I can't help but think it would be awesome to see Xander develop a burning hatred for her, knowing she was working with those who killed Renee and then betraying Buffy...would be pretty awesome in my opinion. :)

But weighing my desire versus what I think will happen, I see it more likely at this point that the Buffy/Satsu event in 8.15 is going to see them share a romantic moment and/or officially become a couple for a while, as I don't see the betrayal happening before this Fray arc, whether it be Satsu, Xander or someone else entirely, and I will indeed have to weather that slow burn. Unless of course the event were to be played in a way that its revealed to just us that Satsu is a double agent or something.

Wolfie Gilmore
08-05-08, 09:59 AM
Haven't read it yet, but couldn't resist spoilers. I'm weak. Anyway...noooo, not Renee!


Xander will obviously take this badly, and not just because it's his face her blood sprayed on when she was killed, but because he's again lost the girl. Anya, killed. Cordy, dead and all but forgotten and unacknowledged. And now Renee. The very night of their first kiss.

I just realised something. You know the old lesbian cliche - all TV lesbian relationships end in death/one of the lesbians going evil? Well, Joss makes ALL relationships into lesbian cliches! Well, not cliche in a bad way...shall we say trope? It's kinder :) Or possibly meme, to be all modern.


To be fair, this doesn't negate Renee as the mole, it would in fact add to the bitter irony if she was.


If the betrayal and the mole are two separate things, then Renee as mole has a certain elegance to it. Perhaps revealed with just a quick, further-stab-in-the-guts scene for Xander where he overhears the army lady talking to Twilight saying “the mole’s been terminated. Stabbed by their own weapon, would you believe”, leading to much turmoil… and yes, perhaps the chance for Xander to in the end be part of the betrayal. Not a traitor, but responsible in some way for betraying Buffy without wanting to.

I don’t think Renee is the mole though. Not sure why. Perhaps because it would be a waste of all that character development, if she’d been lying all the time. Double agent plots rather bore me. It’s cheap, making you care for a character then saying “ha ha, they were just pretending, we weren’t showing you the real character”. Especially if that character’s dead and we don’t even get a chance to see the “real” Renee.

With Satsu being responsible for the betrayal… well, if we get to see the road that takes her to traitor-town, fair enough, as long as it’s not all under the surface. Also, somehow it’s fixed in my mind that they must be, because it seems that the wording of the prediction in the wacky house o’ truthy fun was twisty and not to be trusted…therefore extrapolating that there must be a traitor in the old fashioned turncoat/working with the enemy/trying to bring down the queen sense seems like what we’re supposed to do, but not what’s actually the case.

Ronin
08-05-08, 10:24 AM
I definitely thought that this was one of the best issues so far. Renee going down was a shock to the system, however, as much that I wish she didn’t die, or isn’t dead, I hope that they don’t just destroy the cruelty of the image by having Willow do her healing stuff. Honestly, I thought Willow healing all of those soldiers in issue four was a too convenient way of having Buffy do damage and then release her from the burden of killing people. With that said I hope at least that they explain why she can’t save Renee if indeed she does die.

I’m with those who are getting bored quickly with the Buffy/Satsu thing; it’s becoming awkward and so not fun. God bless Satsu, I side with her completely in that conversation, but it says something about Buffy the General that all you have to do is say you’re not going to follow an order and then the person not following the order gets exactly what they want….

Anyway I’m glad that Satsu wouldn’t let herself be put in a corner, and I’m glad they finally let Dawn out of hers, and let her be a contributor in one of Buffy’s missions, and in so doing gave her something she’s been wanting for a long time…to feel like she’s worthy, and not a burden.

KoC – I think your reasoning for Xander being the traitor is a good one, though like you, I like the idea of Satsu, Leah, and anyone else who isn’t Xander, Willow, or Dawn being the traitor. Although, I have this sinking feeling that Dawn could be the traitor, the reason being that Dawn has always sought Buffy’s attention, and right now she isn’t getting much of it, nor is Buffy making her feel meaningful to her, so what better way to get her attention than becoming her foe, since Buffy consumes herself with her enemies. I know there are a lot of holes and I’m not sure if I buy it myself yet completely, but it’s just a bad feeling.


It does in the sense that this is a story that's being woven and told, not reality. I really don't think Joss would bother conceiving of a traitor storyline just to drop it completely cold like that without it having even been revealed. There's just no point to it. It's not "Lost" -- there's no actress that had to be written off abruptly.

On Lost, are you referring to the--Libby’s in the psych ward what the heck happened--storystory line, or something else? Just curious.

Wolfie Gilmore
08-05-08, 10:28 AM
Anyway I’m glad that Satsu wouldn’t let herself be put in a corner,

Ooh, does she use that "no one puts Satsu in a corner" line? I would love her forever if she did. :D :D

Ronin
08-05-08, 10:36 AM
Ooh, does she use that "no one puts Satsu in a corner" line? I would love her forever if she did. :D :D

Sorry WG, she doesn’t actually say that, although it would have been pretty funny if she had, if not a little forced for the scene in question. :)

Wolfie Gilmore
08-05-08, 11:00 AM
Sorry WG, she doesn’t actually say that, although it would have been pretty funny if she had, if not a little forced for the scene in question. :)

Shame. Then again, it's probably more of a Xander thing to say anyway. And I doubt he'll be making many wisecracks this issue, huh?

Koos
08-05-08, 01:26 PM
Well, I read the issue. I have to say that this issue was the best so far of the season. I liked it the most. In a very good way they have cut the amount of characters in play to a manageble amount; while still giving the feeling of a war. A thousand vampires, that took me by surprise: thought that Toru's gang would be at most about 10. There are two traps, both simple, yet of high quality and played well. I love Dracula, hope he'll be of importance during this season (though not him being the Prince).

So, Toru's gang is in possession of an entire building; including a robotics devision. They probably have even more. Toru is smart, for a vampire. He has it all well thought out, though they were a day or so too early with stealing the Scythe and getting Buffy's attention. It allowed Buffy to give the time needed to get the Scythe back in time.

Renee in schoolgirl uniform: cute ;)

I was wondering if the vampire they set on fire would turn to dust; or if he would suffer as hot air for some unknown time. I love they way they walked away after Buffy had set the vampire on fire. Much like in Blade Trinity. Only a cool background music is missing. My favorite scene of this issue.

Satsu disobeying an order! Ha! That was good! First Buffy/Satsu scene that was good. For the rest I couldn't care about Buffy/Satsu. Satsu's hair is very cute though. And where is her pink animal?


Xander is action as we know him. Only Xander could come up with an excuse/story like this for avoiding a first date. And only Xander could come up with the idea of avoiding a fist date. Good long first and last kiss though. Dracula definitely jealous and funny.

The pre battle scene. The three Slayers, par Buffy, are clothed and armed identical. Well, except for Satsu's katana. Andrew is there out of nowhere. Dracula's is dressed in black and red. The same as Xander on the cover of issue 2. With his pair of pair of replica Morpheus sunglasses, I had hoped he would be dressed in a black leather suit. Drac really should be played by Johnny Depp.

Dawnie is fun.

Renee's death. Much have been said about this. The only thing I can add: is it possible she could survive?

ntshpp
08-05-08, 05:04 PM
Yay! Gay! Dyke Buffy was hilarious.
Alex and Renee... meh, that was kinda sloppy.
Toru is just another Gigi, next issue wil be his last.

wait, if Renee is dead, wtf she's doing on the next issue's cover?

KingofCretins
08-05-08, 05:57 PM
Seriously, enough with the epithets. And there's two good explanations for Renee being on the variant, the "B" cover for 8.15 --

It's not uncommon for comic art to be misleading intentionally to protect surprise developments.
The "B" cover for 8.15 is probably meant to reflect on the *entire arc*, like the "Avengers" variant for 8.09 did. It's an homage to a movie poster for Kurosawa's "Seven Samurai", of which more than one were killed, so there's absolutely nothing internal illogical about her being on that cover despite being killed.

Also: Alex?

Koos, Renee in schoolgirl uniform was better than cute, she was hot. And she totally looked like she "belonged" in that image of the four of them walking away from the "fire box" vampire. Sigh.

Speaking of which, good call on the "Blade: Trinity" reference. It also reminded me of a shot in "Iron Man", seen in the trailers, where he fires a rocket at a tank and you see him already walking away when it blows up behind him. Very badass, stylistically.

Weredog
08-05-08, 11:45 PM
Definitely the best issue of the arc, if not the season. Possibly Jeanty's best work to date. I'm loving his Buffy, Willow and Xander very much. He's improving immensely. The inking was wonderful as well. It was nice to have pages where the characters' skin weren't inked in purple to give the feeling of night as they were in all previous issues. Also, I smiled when Buffy, Willow and Xander were waiting in the trees together. All I need is some Giles. Dawn was cute in this issue as well. :) Can't wait for part 4.

Veverka
10-05-08, 04:51 AM
Wow. Didn't expect that. Silly me, I guess! I didn't get spoiled at all about this issue, and that was kinda nice in a way, but my mouth was hanging open as I read. Damn. The whole 'cut her down' thing, brings back memories (duh) and I really hope it's a call back to a different time, a 'remember when we thought the first was bad' kinda thing, rather than an indication that nothing has changed, that Buffy hasn't grown.

Amber
10-05-08, 05:13 AM
Yay! Gay! Dyke Buffy was hilarious.
Alex and Renee... meh, that was kinda sloppy.
Toru is just another Gigi, next issue wil be his last.


stop saying dyke. seriously. it's offensive and it's old. it's as bad as any racist remark, or anti-religion. it's intolerance and it's ignorant. grow up or stop posting. or better yet, stop reading the comic if you hate it so much, and find a better hobby than begging for attention by whining and being childish. almost every post you've made has offended someone, it seems to be an ongoing trend. you aren't being picked on. you are just an ass. you contribute little to nothing to any conversation except to repeatedly slander characters, call people sluts, dykes, faggots, and to spam over and over and over by posting one sentence idiotic responses to anything. you suck.

his name is xander. and how is it sloppy? they've been building the relationship since the first issue. it's not thrown together in the last couple. it's been hinted to, played up, and finally came to pass. that's how couples happen.

in no way is he another "Gigi." She was a rogue Slayer. He on the other hand, uhm. ISN'T.

vampmogs
10-05-08, 11:44 AM
Well said Amber ;)

I was thinking a little more about this issue and how Willow says to Buffy about if Giles was here. It made me think about it a little more and how Willow and even Xander feel about Buffy cutting Giles off. Do they agree with her? Do they support it? ect. Willow's brought up Giles twice now, once in 'Anywhere But Here' and now in 'The Wolves At the Gate' and it's unclear how strong their relationship was before Willow came to the castle at the start of the season.

Giles tells Angel that he knows where Willow is and she's unavailable to help him, but it's unclear wether or not he really did, seeing that nor Xander or Buffy did. But then Buffy used Willow's cell phone to contact Giles in 'No Future For You.' It's unclear wether this was because;

a) her cell phone was damaged during the water fight with Faith
b) She's already had a falling out with Giles and knew he wouldn't take her call
or
c) Had guessed if he was keeping her out of this he wouldn't take her call if he saw it was Buffy ringing him, so she used Willow's phone instead.

I'd love to know what Willow's relationship is with Giles at the moment. We also know Giles had been 'incammunicado' with Xander as well as Buffy, for at least a few weeks as he states in Issue #6.

So I wonder if Willow's references to Giles are just general comments or if she's trying to drop hints about him to Buffy; as in, call the man.

Nickstime
10-05-08, 04:02 PM
It was a great issue! I liked Renee & Xander's part when they talk about their first dates :roll:

It was CooL too when the gang captures the vampire... It reminds me the tv show a lot. I have to say that i love Dracula! "Is somebody going to finish eating this?" :D

What an end! I won't be able to wait to next issue!

Forgive my english; i'm spanish :(

http://notoy-story.blogspot.com/

tangent
10-05-08, 04:17 PM
Well just finished it and overall I thought it was superb.

The Image of Buffy carrying Aiko's body to the altar was very emotive and really underlined that this is a more emotionally open Buffy than we saw in season 7, although she is still taking everthing onto herself far too much. Her response to Aiko's death is to sit on her own and blame herself until Willow shows up.

How much am I loving Willow this season? She seems to have turned into some kind of favourite aunt for everyone; always able to lend support and dole out advice to the others just when they need it most. She seems so centered and together in this issue. I loved her giddiness at Xander being back and the way she does a pit check at the acrid stench comment as well though. Seriously: love the girl.

The Xander/Drac thing I think was nicely handled, especially as having read back the word 'buttmonkey' doesn't seem to have been mentioned in regards to this issue. If anything it was Drac himself that was used for the comic relief in this issue rather than Xander's realtionship with him. Loved his 'Bram Stokers Dracula' look as well s some of his lines. 'Is anyone going to finish eating this' was fantastic as was his little bit of jealousy, little bit of embarassment in regard to Xander and Renee. Not too sure about him referring to the slayers as a crew though. Doesn't seem a very Drac thing to say.

The characters as a whole seemed to be written very deeply in this issue. Buffy herself ran the gamut of 'isolated and all responsibility' through 'badly hanlding relationships' to 'Badass, killing without pity' (love that last bit; reminded me of the cross in the mouth torture scene in When She Was Bad').

As for the bad guys: im loving that having got back to vamp villains they are such complete and utter nasty pieces of work. They must be some of the most formidale vamps we've had and Toru in particular seems reminiscent of Angelus in his cold hearted calculated approach. I'm so hoping to see Drac and Toru face off next issue. That's got to be a fight worth seeing.

But of course the issue is really all about that final panel. It seems that we've had an interesting character built up over several issues only to be sacrificed in a very abitar fashion. There was no real point to her death. No heroism or self sacrifice was stressed it was just a bad guy sneaking up on her and killing her with the thing that made her a slayer (Great bit or irony). To me this has to be one of two things. Either we're about to get a big Xander arc coming up, either splitting him from Buffy or getting him to go after the bad guys a la fiery baseball bat Giles (and with Drac present and his high profile this season i wouldn't bet against it) or she aint'nt dead. If it's the latter i could see her being revelaed as the mole in some way (actually it could still be done quite neatly post mortem especially if it's to bring Xander back from the brink of a betrayal.) and perhaps turning out for the bad guys in some futue ep.

There was one line that i thought was kind of strange and might have an influence on the next issue and that was the talk of the bad guys having a 'Robotics division'. It seemed to be quite heavily stressed to me with the follow up comment of how 'I don't see why it's necessary' and 'You have no imagination'. Surely if this was just some chance remark about the deslayerisation process it wouldn't require any imagination and if it was regarding the hologram at the end then why was this being handled by a robotics division. I think something else is going on here. Perhaps that's not really Renee at the end. Maybe it's for something we haven't seen yet. either way i think it might be important.

allthings
10-05-08, 06:50 PM
I really enjoyed this issue :D I loved seeing Buffy, Xander and Willow in the trees <3 its reminded me of the good ol' days. Poor Renee :( Do you guys think that maybe Willow can heal her like she did with the armys guys in issue 4? I know its an easy way out but it seems so soon for Xander to lose another girlfriend. I mean come on! Joss leaves the not-much-liked-at-all kennedy alive (after dying) but opts to kill Renee, who a lot of us really like. Im hoping Willow will heal her.. for Xander's sake mostly, and for Buffys having to have lost another slayer in a matter of hours/days *crosses fingers*

Oh and I ADORED the Vamp interrogation scene! That scene would have been amazing if it the show was on TV.

vampmogs
11-05-08, 02:24 AM
I mean come on! Joss leaves the not-much-liked-at-all kennedy alive (after dying) but opts to kill Renee, who a lot of us really like.

:lol: Well that's what Joss does best. Whilst killing someone we don't like can be fun to watch, killing someone we do gets more emotion of out the fandom, it's a pity but it's usually how it works. :)

Plus it helps us "go through what the characters are going through" if we are also sad about Renee's death. Whilst Buffy and Kennedy don't always get a long, and Buffy thinks of her as "bratty" I still don't think she'd be happy if Kennedy died, so it'd be hard for us to care if she did.

And I also loved the Buffy/Willow/Xander tree scene! Really was like the good old days, one of the reasons I'm loving this season so much. They've brought it back to the Buffy/Xander/Willow dynamics which was my favourite part about the show. :)

KingofCretins
11-05-08, 03:59 AM
Y'know, cyborg/robot Renee would actually be a good "out" for the killing. It would satisfy a lot of things --

It would be a, heh, pretty good lead as to the mole/traitor.
It would accommodate my 'alternative scenario' where the schwerve isn't "wait, Renee isn't dead, we saved her", which would be pretty lame, but rather we didn't see what we think we saw -- that was a double agent being extracted, so to speak.
It would make Nile happy, because it *screams* tie-in to the "Lineage" cyborgs. And they bled, too.

And the robotics division might have needed to be ready to repair her or download information or something.

I would accept that.

On the flip-side, if it's face-value truth and Renee is just dead, I agree that this is the beginning of *some* major arc for Xander. I still think it can go one of a few ways (or combination) -- he goes off the deepend and becomes Xander Wyndham-Price, he goes off the deepend and goes Season 3 Faith, or he and Buffy end up together out of all this. Preferably either the third one or a combination that includes the third one :)

On a personally (and somewhat 'shippy note), I liked the panel during the vamp interrogation where Buffy reacts to the plan of reversing the spell and Xander puts his hand on her shoulder. Just nice intimacy on that score. Also, I really enjoyed seeing that Buffy reacted emotionally to that idea as well. I said I was glad she was reacting emotionally to Aiko's death, but this is almost more important -- the fact that she is horrified over the idea of the spell being reversed is a relief. It goes to show that, despite Simone, despite her "A Beautiful Sunset" misgivings, Buffy believes in what they did, that awakening the Slayers was the right move. After "A Beautiful Sunset", I quoted Shepard Book's warning to Mal that the only thing that would walk him through the troubles he had ahead was belief, and that that applied very well to Buffy in the face of Twilight. She has some, and that's good. Or, if you prefer the Buffyverse for quotes, she has 'the slightest bit of give-a-crap left'.

vampmogs
11-05-08, 04:12 AM
Great points King.

I must say though, I hope Renee is dead. It sounds horrible, and I loved her character, but I wouldn't like it to turn out to be a robot or if Willow heals her. I actually think her death could bring on some really interesting change, as you've mentioned it has a lot of potential for Xander's character. I'm not denying the possibility of the robot at all, I agree that it's possible, I just would like it better if she was actually killed in that panel.

And I also like the idea of Renee still being the 'man on the inside.' If Xander did find out post-death she'd been playing him all along, that could build up a lot of resentment and anger in him. The whole, "she was playing me and now that she's dead I'll never be able to go face to face with her" kind of thing, or even guilt about moving on from Anya in the first place.

And emotive Buffy is awesome. Such a breath of fresh air from, isolated Buffy from season six and seven. I've heard some flack from people that Buffy looks like she's still in high school, that she's more chubbier and that she's even acting like she was in high school. I remember reading one of Wolfie's great season 8 fics in which Spike comes to find Buffy and sees her with Xander. In Wolfie's fics she describes Spike's observation that Buffy's put on some more weight and looks healthier again. I really liked that, and have chosen to see it this way. Buffy's opened up a bit more, learnt her lesson that she brought up in 'Touched.' She's eating better, getting along with her friends better, having a nice rapport with her slayers, and up until recently nothing major seemed to be troubling her. An all-round healthier Buffy.

Thomas
11-05-08, 04:26 AM
Personally, I hope Renee is dead, as in, she'll be joining Aiko at that Slayer Re-treat in the sky. I've grown to love Renee during her short time with us, but I think her death makes everything so much more real. They're an army and they're at war. Not all of them are going to live, no matter who they are- It just show that none of these Slayer are safe from dyeing.

Something that stuck out to me was Satsu and Buffy's argument. It seems that EVERYONE heard it. I can definitely see something coming from this. They saw Satsu ignore orders and they saw Buffy still let her go despite that. If they all don't loose their powers, maybe we'll be seeing some of them rebelling too? Or maybe Satsu wanted everyone to hear that Buffy called her her best fighter? Assuming, Satsu is a big-fat traitor...

vampmogs
11-05-08, 04:36 AM
Yeah Satsu was out of line IMO. Wether they slept together or not, Buffy's in charge and she should follow her orders. They shouldn't have slept together in the first place, surley both of them knew it could make things complicated. It'll be interesting to see how long for and to what degree Buffy will allow Satsu to disobey her for though.

KingofCretins
11-05-08, 05:05 AM
I didn't get the impression that anyone was privy to that conversation -- they weren't reacting down there, at least, and they were alone on a rooftop. At best they heard raised voices, IMO. Satsu questioned Buffy's decision in relative privacy as far as I can tell. I certainly didn't get the impression Satsu just wanted to broadcast Buffy's opinion of her fighting -- that would be a complete reverse from her humility in 8.04 that she was chosen over Leah and Rowena.

And, it was a BS order -- it was as asinine of Buffy to insist upon as was the "Riley can no longer patrol" crap was. That doesn't make it optional, though. In fact, less optional; Riley wasn't under Buffy's authority, Satsu is. But, again, Satsu did it the way you should, she challenged her in private. And succeeded. Good on her, I say.

vampmogs
11-05-08, 06:11 AM
And, it was a BS order -- it was as asinine of Buffy to insist upon as was the "Riley can no longer patrol" crap was. That doesn't make it optional, though. In fact, less optional; Riley wasn't under Buffy's authority, Satsu is. But, again, Satsu did it the way you should, she challenged her in private. And succeeded. Good on her, I say.

But I don't think Satsu handled it well. I would have been fine if Satsu had talked to Buffy about the pros and cons of her plan, if she'd presented a solid case to Buffy as to why it was a mistake holding her back. But Satsu just flat out refused Buffy's order, and therein lies a slippery slope. I don't think Buffy's order was the correct one, she admits Satsu's her best fighter and could even lead the slayers someday, but I don't feel Satsu should be in the position to just flat out refuse an order like that.

Xander, Willow, even Giles. They've all been around Buffy for a lot longer, I feel fine with the idea of them questioning her motives and refusing to follow her plans. In fact I'd encourage the other slayers to question Buffy's motives, this isn't a dictatorship, but it's more of a case of "If you want follow my orders then leave." I don't think they should be allowed to flat out refuse an order their general gives them.

What's even more concerning is that Buffy just took this like she did. A far cry from how she acted to Satsu in 'The Long Way Home' when she told her, her orders and made it clear Satsu followed them. If Satsu is revealed to be the traitor I think she'd have gotten Buffy exactly how she wanted her. Too emotionally invested to treat her the same, Satsu being able to wiggle her way out of authority and Buffy unable to follow through on her commands.

I still love the girl, I haven't seen anything concrete yet to make me not trust her. She showed genuine tears after allowing Twilight to take her out of the fight so easily and harm Buffy, but I think she acted pretty bad in this latest scene.

KingofCretins
11-05-08, 07:40 AM
Wow, I don't think I can disagree more about Buffy "just taking it". This wasn't Buffy being victimized, but rather Buffy... tolerating disagreement in others and abiding it. There's a line in Couch Baron's "Prophecy Girl" recap on TWOP that I think describes why this is a positive change (referring to Xander's line about having to be a demon to make time with Buffy) -- "Buffy says that's very harsh, but unlike later seasons, allows it without getting upset or self-righteous."

The context in the scene in 8.14 was very Season 1 Buffy telling her friends what to do ("I'm the Slayer and you're... not"), not Season 8 Buffy in the context of her office and command. She tried to tell Satsu what was what and Satsu threw it back in her face. And Buffy... allowed it without getting upset or self-righteous.

It's all part of this "now with 93% more early season Buffy" positive change that I'm seeing in her character.

vampmogs
11-05-08, 08:50 AM
Wow, I don't think I can disagree more about Buffy "just taking it". This wasn't Buffy being victimized, but rather Buffy... tolerating disagreement in others and abiding it. There's a line in Couch Baron's "Prophecy Girl" recap on TWOP that I think describes why this is a positive change (referring to Xander's line about having to be a demon to make time with Buffy) -- "Buffy says that's very harsh, but unlike later seasons, allows it without getting upset or self-righteous."

But Buffy wasn't and still isn't, in the position to tell Xander what he can and can't do. She wasn't his general, but she is Satsu’s. And like I said, I had no problem with Satsu speaking her mind to Buffy, but she was given an order and she directly disobeyed it. Which if I remember correctly, was what a lot of people, including yourself, was concerned might happen as a result of Buffy sleeping with a *subordinate.*? Xander was never her subordinate.

Can we honestly say that Buffy would have allowed any other slayer to directly disobey her in this way?


The context in the scene in 8.14 was very Season 1 Buffy telling her friends what to do ("I'm the Slayer and you're... not"), not Season 8 Buffy in the context of her office and command. She tried to tell Satsu what was what and Satsu threw it back in her face. And Buffy... allowed it without getting upset or self-righteous.

But she shouldn't just allow it. If she's their general she has to have some authority over the slayers or what is the point? I'm fine with slayers questioning her motives but at the end of the day if this is an army and Buffy's the leader, what she says should be final on the word. She should allow them to speak their opinions and see if they can make her change her mind but if her mind hasn't been changed then they should fall in line.

If Buffy doesn't want to adopt a military approach, that's fine. But everything else we've seen thus far proves otherwise.

And if she’s going to that approach then she can’t let her subordinates directly disobey her. She can still be friendly and take criticism and not get self righteous whilst still having a chain of command. The slayers obviously respected her authority a lot, as Leah says in ‘The Long Way Home’ Buffy made her call about bringing Satsu with her to get Willow, even if they didn’t like it they respected it. That shows to me a level of respect, combined with mutual friendship and solid rapport as seen in Issue #2 during training, which proves Buffy can be relatable and not self righteous, whilst still being an authoritarian when necessary.

Anon
11-05-08, 09:33 AM
But I don't think Satsu handled it well. I would have been fine if Satsu had talked to Buffy about the pros and cons of her plan, if she'd presented a solid case to Buffy as to why it was a mistake holding her back. But Satsu just flat out refused Buffy's order, and therein lies a slippery slope. I don't think Buffy's order was the correct one, she admits Satsu's her best fighter and could even lead the slayers someday, but I don't feel Satsu should be in the position to just flat out refuse an order like that.

Xander, Willow, even Giles. They've all been around Buffy for a lot longer, I feel fine with the idea of them questioning her motives and refusing to follow her plans. In fact I'd encourage the other slayers to question Buffy's motives, this isn't a dictatorship, but it's more of a case of "If you want follow my orders then leave." I don't think they should be allowed to flat out refuse an order their general gives them.

What's even more concerning is that Buffy just took this like she did. A far cry from how she acted to Satsu in 'The Long Way Home' when she told her, her orders and made it clear Satsu followed them. If Satsu is revealed to be the traitor I think she'd have gotten Buffy exactly how she wanted her. Too emotionally invested to treat her the same, Satsu being able to wiggle her way out of authority and Buffy unable to follow through on her commands.

I still love the girl, I haven't seen anything concrete yet to make me not trust her. She showed genuine tears after allowing Twilight to take her out of the fight so easily and harm Buffy, but I think she acted pretty bad in this latest scene.Actually, I have a hard time with the concept that blatantly stupid orders should be obeyed. Satsu has shown that she can recognise bad orders and decide for herself whether or not to obey them, which is a good thing. I can see your point about the slippery slope, but blindly following orders isn't a good thing either.

I also think that the reason Buffy didn't press the issue was because she realised Satsu was right and there wasn't any good reason why Satsu shouldn't fight with the others.

vampmogs
11-05-08, 09:48 AM
Actually, I have a hard time with the concept that blatantly stupid orders should be obeyed. Satsu has shown that she can recognise bad orders and decide for herself whether or not to obey them, which is a good thing.

But then by who's judgement is an order "stupid" or "smart"? If each of the slayers is allowed to determine for themselves wether an order is a good or bad one, and thus refuse to obey an order if they determine it's bad, where does that leave Buffy's role as authoritarian or any hope of any kind of chain of command? As for example, what if Satsu had decided she wasn't going to go with Buffy in 'The Long Way Home' because she didn't feel like she was the right person, so Buffy had to bring Leah instead. Leah being not as great of a fighter as Satsu, Buffy and Leah are outnumbered, Willow dies and so do they. Just an example.


I can see your point about the slippery slope, but blindly following orders isn't a good thing either.

I agree that blindly following orders isn't a good thing. Which is why I said if I were Buffy I'd encourage the slayers to question her decisions, to call her up on it and present a case as to why the orders in their opinion, aren't the best course of action. And then let Buffy hear the arguments and make her decision. I'm all for freedom of speech and having the ability to think for yourself, and Buffy's not running a dictatorship. Those slayers are there because they chose to be there, she only has 500 out of nearly 2000 working for her. But if they choose to be there, they've chosen to follow her orders as well. If they want to fight evil by their own methods and their own way of thinking, that’s great, but they shouldn’t have joined Buffy’s team.


I also think that the reason Buffy didn't press the issue was because she realised Satsu was right and there wasn't any good reason why Satsu shouldn't fight with the others.

I'd be fine with that. But perhaps a little more clarification was needed, if not for the viewers at least for Satsu. I'd have accepted it more if Buffy had something like "Your right. But your only coming because I'm allowing you to, lets make that clear." Obviously the writers could come up with something better, but along those lines.

Anon
11-05-08, 10:24 AM
But then by who's judgement is an order "stupid" or "smart"? If each of the slayers is allowed to determine for themselves wether an order is a good or bad one, and thus refuse to obey an order if they determine it's bad, where does that leave Buffy's role as authoritarian or any hope of any kind of chain of command? As for example, what if Satsu had decided she wasn't going to go with Buffy in 'The Long Way Home' because she didn't feel like she was the right person, so Buffy had to bring Leah instead. Leah being not as great of a fighter as Satsu, Buffy and Leah are outnumbered, Willow dies and so do they. Just an example.You can get away with this line of reasoning only because the example is fairly trivial. If it were more serious, then this line of reasoning would be pretty much impossible. 'I was following orders' is not an excuse. As far as I can tell, Satsu will obey Buffy's orders by default, but not automatically, which is as it should be.


I agree that blindly following orders isn't a good thing. Which is why I said if I were Buffy I'd encourage the slayers to question her decisions, to call her up on it and present a case as to why the orders in their opinion, aren't the best course of action. And then let Buffy hear the arguments and make her decision. I'm all for freedom of speech and having the ability to think for yourself, and Buffy's not running a dictatorship. Those slayers are there because they chose to be there, she only has 500 out of nearly 2000 working for her. But if they choose to be there, they've chosen to follow her orders as well. If they want to fight evil by their own methods and their own way of thinking, that’s great, but they shouldn't’t have joined Buffy’s team.This isn't always appropriate. Knowing when to challenge orders and when to disobey them is important. I agree that the slayers shouldn't arbitrarily decide not to obey orders because they don't like them, or they disagree, but I have seen no evidence of this.

You're talking about a problem that doesn't exist yet. It could become a problem and Satsu may have to be dealt with if and when it does, but there is no evidence of that at this time.

vampmogs
11-05-08, 11:29 AM
This isn't always appropriate. Knowing when to challenge orders and when to disobey them is important. I agree that the slayers shouldn't arbitrarily decide not to obey orders because they don't like them, or they disagree, but I have seen no evidence of this.

Well Satsu is evidence of this. I'm not saying that any other slayer has done this but Satsu now has. Which is why it's a slippery slope. Either she could continue to do this now she's gotten away with it once, or other slayers could follow by example.


You're talking about a problem that doesn't exist yet. It could become a problem and Satsu may have to be dealt with if and when it does, but there is no evidence of that at this time.

I'm not saying there's a problem now, but Satsu directly disobeyed an order because she didn't like it. She's gotten away with it once, it'll be interesting to see if it happens again. And it's possible. A lot of people speculated these kind of problems could happen as a result of Buffy sleeping with a subordinate, it has.

I still can’t see Buffy allowing any of the other slayers to get away with what Satsu did. And it’s not about her being self righteous or arrogant, she’s simply being a general and Satsu undermined that. It’s as much Buffy’s fault as it hers. And the problems that could result from her sleeping with Satsu were seen miles away, there’s a reason Willow gave her the “she’s the general. We’re the army and that’s never going to change” speech.

Like I said, I don't disagree with Satsu's objections to what Buffy was telling her to do. But Buffy is the general and Satsu is still a subordinate. One could argue Buffy would have never gave her these orders if they hadn't slept together, which is a valid point, but you could also say Satsu pre-Buffy wow sex wouldn't have ever disobeyed Buffy like this either. Hence the problem. :)

stormwreath
11-05-08, 03:15 PM
I see the scene between Buffy and Satsu there as more proof of my earlier contention: Team Slayer is not an authoritarioan, hierarchical army where everybody has to obey orders or zey vill be shot.

They're more like an activist group, where everyone is committed and self-motivated, and they follow Buffy's orders out of respect (and hero-worship in some cases), and because they all agree that in a crisis situation you need clear leadership. Satsu tells Buffy to her face that she's not going to do what she says, and Buffy accepts that. What else could she do? Order a court martial? Have Satsu ceremonially drummed out of the army? Have the other Slayers arrest her and throw her in the brig?

She could argue with her or shout her down, as she did in #13, but this time, I think Buffy doesn't object because deep down she actually agrees with Satsu. But that's a personal thing, not a hierarchy thing.

KingofCretins
11-05-08, 04:22 PM
I see the scene between Buffy and Satsu there as more proof of my earlier contention: Team Slayer is not an authoritarioan, hierarchical army where everybody has to obey orders or zey vill be shot.

They're more like an activist group, where everyone is committed and self-motivated, and they follow Buffy's orders out of respect (and hero-worship in some cases), and because they all agree that in a crisis situation you need clear leadership. Satsu tells Buffy to her face that she's not going to do what she says, and Buffy accepts that. What else could she do? Order a court martial? Have Satsu ceremonially drummed out of the army? Have the other Slayers arrest her and throw her in the brig?

She could argue with her or shout her down, as she did in #13, but this time, I think Buffy doesn't object because deep down she actually agrees with Satsu. But that's a personal thing, not a hierarchy thing.

I see this as a rather utopian and non-textual reading, perhaps projection, unto the text. That's not meant as an insult, but I'm just not seeing where this is supported in the story itself. Buffy and Xander both have been giving orders that have been followed unequivocally. So has Willow, in fact. We've seen Satsu herself express fear of penalty (being kicked out) if she was deemed a problem (in this case, by wanting Buffy).

Really, why couldn't Buffy have a 'court-martial'? She can kick a Slayer out of her army, out of her home at the BHC. What exactly do you think she has in mind for Simone? Aside from a beatdown. And, yeah, beatdowns -- behold, an important part of the competent authority in an organization of Slayers. Probably the best little bit in "Batman Forever" was O'Donnell's Robin insisting that he could go out and crimefight if he wanted to, Batman couldn't stop him, prompting Kilmer's Bruce to stand up and very assuredly say "I could stop you".

There is a dualism in this group -- an unquestioned heirarchical authority at the organization level and the same-old-Scooby song and dance at the intimate personal level.

What we're seeing with Buffy and Satsu is the reality that they walked through a one way door. She's in the intimate, collegial dynamic now and can't be ordered anymore. It just took a full issue for Satsu to catch up to that and Buffy still doesn't get it. Renee and Xander had walked through that one way door with the kiss prior to her being killed.

The real effects now aren't for Buffy, they're for Satsu... because she's cast out, in a sense, from the 'girls' -- she's not part of Alpha Team anymore in a real way, she's part of the Scoobies, whether she wanted it or not, whether she's ready for it or not.

vampmogs
11-05-08, 04:36 PM
Yeah I have to say that IMO Team Slayer *is* a hierarchal army.

Buffy does express contempt at everyone calling her "ma'am" in The Long Way Home, but she never stopped them from doing it. Whilst she doesn't like it, she's certainly adopted that leadership role. And there's been numerous references to Buffy having a authoritarian position, from Willow referencing her as "the general" to Leah calling her "the boss." There's most certainly a structure going on there IMO. We've also seen, as King mentions, Buffy give various orders and instructions throughout season 8 to members of her team, take for example last issue when she snaps "I gave you an order!" to Satsu. She wasn't messing around then.

Between the Scoobies, nothing appears to have changed. We've never seen Buffy give an order to Willow and Xander, and I doubt very much they'd take one off her. I doubt if Buffy had that influence over them, Willow would have ever disappeared for a year without telling Buffy her whereabouts, and Xander was the one who *told* Buffy he wasn't going through the portal with her in The Long Way Home, not the other way around. And I really doubt Buffy ever wants that role over her friends, or thinks for a moment they'd let her act that way towards them.

Everything we’ve seen seems to point in the direction that they’re an army. Buffy’s employed mystics at her disposal, and she’s used her stolen bank money to fund the girls like an army. She’s paid to house them in various cells all over the world, including the castle, and I presume feed them as well, as we haven’t seen any have a job. Having her feed them, shelter them and pay for any other expenses for them sounds very much like a military operation to me. It’s these girl’s job to be part of Buffy’s group, they needn’t get another one.

I just think because the Scoobies have never really operated in this way, and have always been a lot more about family, we're going to see situations where it doesn't appear as much like an 'army' as it does other times, they slip sometimes, they get more personal.

Anon
11-05-08, 04:49 PM
Well Satsu is evidence of this. I'm not saying that any other slayer has done this but Satsu now has. Which is why it's a slippery slope. Either she could continue to do this now she's gotten away with it once, or other slayers could follow by example.I said arbitrarily.


I'm not saying there's a problem now, but Satsu directly disobeyed an order because she didn't like it. She's gotten away with it once, it'll be interesting to see if it happens again. And it's possible. A lot of people speculated these kind of problems could happen as a result of Buffy sleeping with a subordinate, it has.It was a stupid order being given for all the wrong reasons and Satsu knew it. It has not yet reached the point where Satsu won't obey orders simply because she doesn't want to, and this may never happen.


Like I said, I don't disagree with Satsu's objections to what Buffy was telling her to do. But Buffy is the general and Satsu is still a subordinate. One could argue Buffy would have never gave her these orders if they hadn't slept together, which is a valid point, but you could also say Satsu pre-Buffy wow sex wouldn't have ever disobeyed Buffy like this either. Hence the problem. :)There is no situation in which one person's descision should be absolute. Some orders shouldn't be obeyed even if you can't change the mind of the person making those descisions.

Koos
11-05-08, 05:01 PM
But I don't think Satsu handled it well. I would have been fine if Satsu had talked to Buffy about the pros and cons of her plan, if she'd presented a solid case to Buffy as to why it was a mistake holding her back. But Satsu just flat out refused Buffy's order, and therein lies a slippery slope.

This wasn't about the order or what was the best thing. This was about Buffy putting her own emotions towards Satsu on the line and thereby putting Satsu in a box with her authority where Satsu doesn't belong. If there's a question of a relationship between the two than they are equal, and Buffy puts herself on top because she's higher ranked at work. They don't have a relationship as such, but the order belonged in that category, because it is personal related stuff. In that way, Buffy abused her power and Satsu was forced to call her on it. Satsu did the right thing, and the way Buffy looks at her makes it clear that Buffy understood. (Which, by the way was very funny to see. Nice work from Jeanty).

Sosa lola
11-05-08, 07:01 PM
Question, if Buffy lost her slayer powers along with a few slayers and then they managed to get the sycthe back, can Willow use the sycthe like she did in Chosen to make them slayers again?

stormwreath
11-05-08, 07:46 PM
From my perspective, it's equally projecting to assume that there has to be a strict military heirarchy just because the characters like to throw around military metaphors now. Buffy's been handing out orders to her friends since at least Season 3; they follow them because they trust that she knows what she's talking about, not because she has authority over them.

We've seen Satsu express fear of being "kicked out" by Buffy, but that's a phrase used to describe being frozen out of a group of friends or a private club - or even a relationship, as in "kicked out of bed".


What exactly do you think she has in mind for Simone? Aside from a beatdown.Probably an intervention by her fellow-Slayers, to be honest. And if that doesn't work... I'm not sure Buffy has thought that far ahead. I'd be interested to find out what she does do.


There is a dualism in this group -- an unquestioned heirarchical authority at the organization level and the same-old-Scooby song and dance at the intimate personal level.Not the way I see it at all. In Buffy's mind, the old Scooby way of doing things is still the way. She didn't overthrow the old Watchers Council-approved method of doing things just to replace them with her own authoritarian hierarchy. Her Slayers are all volunteers - only 500 out of 2,000, remember - and if she expects her orders to be obeyed, well, she's always done so, even when it was only Xander and Willow and Giles and Angel and Oz to obey them.

Problem is, her followers don't see things that way. She's hero-worshipped. The younger Slayers assume she has the right to tell Xander not to go see Dracula. They see her as the boss, and what she says, goes. They all call her "Ma'am", and she finds that weird and disturbing, except apparently when it's Satsu when she finds it weird and disturbing and sexy.

I don't think this is me being Utopian. The opposite, really - you could argue that an organisation as large as Buffy's is now needs some form of organisation and formalised authority structure. That Buffy is going to run into some big problems down the line because of the lack of them.

vampmogs
12-05-08, 10:00 AM
She didn't overthrow the old Watchers Council-approved method of doing things just to replace them with her own authoritarian hierarchy.

Actually Scott Allie said that there is comparisons between Buffy's organisation and the council. And that, that is something worth thinking about for fans. To quote him directly;

"Is the slayer army a cult? Does she exhibit some of the same arrogance as the Watcher Council? I think it'd be pretty easy to argue yes to both questions. I'll be curious to see what you think of the revelations (bank robbery) from Buffy #10, and some of her scenes in this issue."

It seems like it's an intended comparison by Joss.

Wolfie Gilmore
12-05-08, 11:01 AM
I see the scene between Buffy and Satsu there as more proof of my earlier contention: Team Slayer is not an authoritarioan, hierarchical army where everybody has to obey orders or zey vill be shot.



There is a dualism in this group -- an unquestioned heirarchical authority at the organization level and the same-old-Scooby song and dance at the intimate personal level.


My take on The Slay Team (who pity the fool...or if the fool is Andrew, they make fun of him) is that they never quite sat down and decided how things were going to work. So, on one level they function as a military hierarchy, because that’s an easy model to ape when you haven’t worked out how you’re going to organise things. On another level, there’s a more collaborative/discursive mode in play – if someone disobeys and manages to convince Buffy, as Satsu seems to have done, it’s not followed up (or not so far).

The key word in king’s post above is “unquestioned” – I feel that the Scoobies haven’t examined their practices properly yet, and they’re operating in certain ways on a knee-jerk way. Joyce once accused Buffy of “reacting” to vampires, and to an extent, her words hold true here: while Buffy and co are proactive when it comes to fighting evil, I don’t feel they’ve applied the same forethought and self-determination to the way they manage themselves.

OMG. They SO need to employ David Nabbitt as a consultant to advise them on Best Practice. :D :D

Ronin
12-05-08, 11:17 AM
Buffy’s order was BS, and emotionally driven for sure. And while I agree completely with Satsu’s sentiment, it wasn’t a stupid order; this can’t be likened to not following an order because the order itself was unethical or in violation of a clearly stated code. This was insubordination. My primary problem with the way things went down was not Satsu’s stand, but rather the fact that Buffy let it stand, and furthermore, let her have her way.

To me sleeping with Satsu was one of the most irresponsible things that Buffy has ever done. Rules regarding intimate relationships between an attending and med student; a co and his/her subordinate exist for a reason. Buffy erased the separating line in issue 12, then harshly redrew it in 13, and in-so-doing, shot down a pretty logical suggestion by Satsu, and now in 14, there are hurt feelings, unclear positioning between General and soldier, and questions of effective and professional leadership.

Also, what Buffy allowed to happen doesn’t just put her leadership on the line, if the other slayers find out and don’t react well (Willow’s pep talk in 13, was well within earshot of the other slayers on the plane), then Satsu’s status among her peers could very well be in question as well.

We know that in A Beautiful Sunset, Buffy told Satsu that it wasn’t just the lip-gloss, but that it was obvious and that a lot of people probably know. And that could go back to the reaction Leah had in TLWH #4 when Satsu says that it should have been one of them, and Leah flat out agreed. Maybe some of the other slayers are envious of Satsu’s skill, or possibly they knew Satsu had feelings for Buffy, and maybe they saw something in Buffy that was reciprocal. After all, Buffy only said that she wasn’t gay to a point where Satsu wouldn’t notice, maybe to the other slayers Buffy gave off a vibe that was more obvious.

Do we know that Satsu is the best fighter? Does Satsu know that she is the best fighter? Do the other slayers feel that way? Does Buffy herself believe it? Buffy’s action has led to questions of validation: her’s as a leader, Satsu’s as a slayer, and the other slayers status in Buffy’s eyes. Granted a lot of this is hypothetical and may never play itself out in such an elaborate way, but it’s out there for us.

vampmogs
12-05-08, 11:35 AM
I agree with everything you've said Ronin, in particular this;


Buffy’s order was BS, and emotionally driven for sure. And while I agree completely with Satsu’s sentiment, it wasn’t a stupid order; this can’t be likened to not following an order because the order itself was unethical or in violation of a clearly stated code. This was insubordination. My primary problem with the way things went down was not Satsu’s stand, but rather the fact that Buffy let it stand, and furthermore, let her have her way.

I've never suggested Buffy's plan was a good one, but just choosing not to obey it isn't how a hierarchal structure works, and that does seem to be what Buffy's adopting. As fans we've pretty much all agreed that Buffy's order was BS and emotionally driven as you've stated. *BUT* that changes nothing because we're not characters in the story. Yes we may agree with Satsu's opinion of her plan but what if next time we don't? We're saying that she's allowed to make this call because Buffy's plan was BS, but by who's authority? Ours? Because that doesn't effect the character. What happens the next time Satsu thinks Buffy's order was BS and we don't? Will people be so willing to applaud her disobedience then?

I can't help but feel the only reason so many of us are saying it's within Satsu's rights to disobey Buffy is because we agree that the plan was BS. But three issues later we can't suddenly say, "Satsu can't disobey Buffy's orders this way" if we think Buffy's order is a good one but Satsu thinks it's BS and refuses to do it. That'd be contradictory. Please tell me if I've generalised here, but it's just the impression I'm getting.

By allowing Satsu to disobey Buffy's order this time because *she* thinks it is a bad plan, means that we're supporting the kind of structure when a slayer can refuse to do anything Buffy tells them if they feel it's a bad plan. And therein lies badness, mixed signals, and a serious flaw in the leadership role of Buffy and the structure of the slayer army.

And that's the problem with adopting a case-by-case analysis of these things. IMO we either have to adopt a "Any slayer can flat out disobey Buffy and refuse her orders if by their own judgement it's not a good one" or "Buffy is general. Their the army and that's never going to change. And as long as they are a part of that army they do what their general tells them." Buffy can't take one approach one day and the following adopt the other, it can't be inconsistent if you don't want her entire leadership structure to just fall apart. These things are built on consistency.

Yes this hasn't happened yet, but I think it's fine to speculate it could happen. The same way people speculated that things like this could be a result of Buffy sleeping with a subordinate. It's only natural now we've seen Satsu flat out refuse to follow Buffy's order once, we'd speculate what could happen if she continues to do this.

allthings
12-05-08, 11:39 AM
Question, if Buffy lost her slayer powers along with a few slayers and then they managed to get the sycthe back, can Willow use the sycthe like she did in Chosen to make them slayers again?

I was thinking this myself. The fact we have seen Willow flying around makes me think she has really become powerful, although flying aint so amazing haha.
I have no doubt she would be able to do the spell again but Im thinkin now that Joss wont go down that road because its kind of a rehash of 'Chosen'

And and to comment on the Buffy/Satsu thing, I think Satsu went against Buffys order because she in fact is the traitor and she is needed my Toru and co to finish thier plans. It is a little coincidental with Satsu's asian origins and her being Buffy's best fighter, imo anyways.....

stormwreath
12-05-08, 12:47 PM
What happens the next time Satsu thinks Buffy's order was BS and we don't? Will people be so willing to applaud her disobedience then? Yes. I will, anyway. (Well, if she's clearly wrong I'll not applaud her for that, but I won't complain about her not blindly obeying Buffy).


But three issues later we can't suddenly say, "Satsu can't disobey Buffy's orders this way" if we think Buffy's order is a good one but Satsu thinks it's BS and refuses to do it. That'd be contradictory.Which is why I wouldn't do that.


By allowing Satsu to disobey Buffy's order this time because *she* thinks it is a bad plan, means that we're supporting the kind of structure when a slayer can refuse to do anything Buffy tells them if they feel it's a bad plan. And therein lies badness, mixed signals, and a serious flaw in the leadership role of Buffy and the structure of the slayer army.All true, and reasons why the line you quoted from Scott Allie is appropriate: by not setting up a clear formal hierarchy with rules and responsibilities and procedures, Buffyis running some big risks.

She's also encouraging her followers to show initiative and do the right thing instead of always waiting for her to tell them what to do, so I'd say she's also got a few things right.

Since the army comparison is so popular, here's some food for thought. Most real-life armies are famous for strict discipline and making everybody follow orders to the letter. However, there have been a few armies which took a different approach: they simply gave their junior officers some general objectives and guidelines, then set them free to do whatever they thought best.

And surprisingly enough, these armies - such as the French army under Napoleon or the German army of the 20th century - actually did rather well, and regularly beat opponents who were, on paper, much stronger than them. Maybe Buffy's Auftragstaktik approach isn't quite so bad after all...

Wolfie Gilmore
12-05-08, 03:00 PM
Setting aside the ongoing debates for a moment, thought I’d give my overall response to the issue.

I loved the silence of Buffy’s funeral march, carrying the dead slayer. I’m totally resisting making a joke I could make right now. Oh no I’m not. So….

“Aiko, are you my mummy?”

Sorry. I’m so sorry. But if they will feature the Doctor in an issue, then they should realise what they’ll unleash.
On the letters page, I was amused to read that someone fanwanked the appearance of a RED not blue phonebox in the same issue as the Doc and Rose as the Doc having fixed the TARDIS’s chameleon circuit. Hee!

But back to the issue at hand. Ok, what is it with Joss Whedon and skewering people? First Wash, now Renee.

On the Wash topic, I rewatched Top Gunn the other day. Only just occurred to me that Wash = Goose! Even down to the predilection for dodgy facial hair.

Back to the issue at hand. Brain all over the place today.

Dracula is brilliant. I loved the alienness of his “is anyone going to finish eating that?”, a reminder of what he is in a show/story that sometimes normalises vampires as people with fangs. He’s my new favourite comedy character. Andrew, sorry mate, but move aside.

Dawn playing the Gojira role (after seeing it written on the tomb perhaps?) and taking a few moments to get into the actual roaring = win.

This issue wove the comic and the tragic together perfectly. Loved the dialogue between Renee and Xander about dating, and about dressing her up as a schoolgirl. Then, with the ending… harsh. It’s not completely impossible that she’d survive that, but it does not look good for our (not-quite-the-but-one-of-the) heroine(s).

The exploration of Buffy’s power through Satsu – and how she gets off on the roleplay of power – is fascinating. As I said above, my take on the Scooby organisation is that they’ve not exactly written out a constitution and they’ve been making it up as they go along. So, they’ve fallen into a loosely military structure, but not one that’s so set in stone that it can’t be questioned or destabilised. I hope that Satsu standing up for herself will make Buffy et al inspect how they’re running things. Do rather doubt it though, given how wrapped up in events the Scoobs tend to get.

But, on the topic of the roleplay, there is an element of that. I’m thinking Sartre for a moment here – all his schtick about acting out roles, it’s not entirely pretentious nonsense. Buffy is playing at being a leader on one level, in that she’s somewhat allowing the role of “Ma’am” to take over, to intoxicate her, without working out what it means. On another level, she IS asking those questions…just not consistently. She queries her place in the world when talking to Xander, but when she’s backed into a corner, eg by Satsu in the previous issue, when her authority is challenged, she can come back with a kneejerk authoritarianism.

Buffy is more of a “de facto” rather than a “de jure” sort of person. The theory side of the world does not appeal to her. Which, when theory has in the past meant a bunch of rules made up by dead white men, and slayer handbooks that don’t allow for individuality, that’s fair enough. But on the other hand, her lack of stepping back and considering what she’s doing in a systematic way is leading to a certain dissonance, and a fragility of what she’s built. She’s the leader, but a leader of what? An army? A band of merry men and women who have the right to question her and to disobey her if she’s wrong? Two separate groups, one of whom can question (the scoobies and their satellites) and one that can’t (the slayers en masse)? Are some slayers more equal than others?

I don’t have answers to any of those things, but I want to see Buffy asking the questions more thoroughly. She does start asking them, but I don’t think she has really followed them through enough to put them into practice.

So, I didn't set aside the ongoing debates after all :)

Anon
12-05-08, 03:02 PM
I've never suggested Buffy's plan was a good one, but just choosing not to obey it isn't how a hierarchal structure works, and that does seem to be what Buffy's adopting. As fans we've pretty much all agreed that Buffy's order was BS and emotionally driven as you've stated. *BUT* that changes nothing because we're not characters in the story. Yes we may agree with Satsu's opinion of her plan but what if next time we don't? We're saying that she's allowed to make this call because Buffy's plan was BS, but by who's authority? Ours? Because that doesn't effect the character. What happens the next time Satsu thinks Buffy's order was BS and we don't? Will people be so willing to applaud her disobedience then?

I can't help but feel the only reason so many of us are saying it's within Satsu's rights to disobey Buffy is because we agree that the plan was BS. But three issues later we can't suddenly say, "Satsu can't disobey Buffy's orders this way" if we think Buffy's order is a good one but Satsu thinks it's BS and refuses to do it. That'd be contradictory. Please tell me if I've generalised here, but it's just the impression I'm getting.It depends on the circumstances. If it seems that Satsu is disobeying orders in an arbitrary fashion or without really knowing what she's doing, that would be different. That is not the case here. It could be partly about feelings, but it isn't difficult to produce an intellectual justification for her actions (i.e. that the order was stupid and Buffy would be better off with Satsu fighting by her side). That order was blatant BS and Satsu could see this.

Wolfie Gilmore
12-05-08, 03:18 PM
Thinking about the problem of Buffy not thinking through her organisation’s structure: the problem could equally be viewed as a writer’s issue, that it’s not Buffy who hasn’t thought things through, but Joss? Often hard to separate writer’s choice from character’s choice when there’s nothing glaringly OOC going on.

I do find it believable that Buffy didn’t think through how things were going to be structured, and that no one really took her to task on it. I think Xander would if he thought she was out of line in terms of how she’s dealing with individual slayers, but he’s not really theoretically minded himself, so while he’s great at untangling the personal aspects of an organisation, I don’t think he’d be the one to tell Buffy she needs to work out what her strategy is. Giles would, perhaps, but he’s not exactly her consigilere any more. Willow…again, not so much with the being around at the start of things. Dawn…too busy being enormous.

KingofCretins
12-05-08, 03:46 PM
Thinking about the problem of Buffy not thinking through her organisation’s structure: the problem could equally be viewed as a writer’s issue, that it’s not Buffy who hasn’t thought things through, but Joss? Often hard to separate writer’s choice from character’s choice when there’s nothing glaringly OOC going on.

Oh, there's no question. That's why I've also sort of resigned myself to the fact that any real-world organizational problems Buffy would definitely be facing by blurring the lines she has will be wished away, because Joss either A) doesn't understand them and/or B) isn't interested in them. It's kind of aggravating on that level, actually.


I do find it believable that Buffy didn’t think through how things were going to be structured, and that no one really took her to task on it. I think Xander would if he thought she was out of line in terms of how she’s dealing with individual slayers, but he’s not really theoretically minded himself, so while he’s great at untangling the personal aspects of an organisation, I don’t think he’d be the one to tell Buffy she needs to work out what her strategy is. Giles would, perhaps, but he’s not exactly her consigilere any more. Willow…again, not so much with the being around at the start of things. Dawn…too busy being enormous.

Yeah... I think army-by-consensus will have to be something I suspend disbelief about (and it takes as much, if not more, than the underlying vampires and Slayers do). Seriously, there's a $100 bill in the middle of an intersection -- on one side, there's a vampire, on another a Slayer, on another an army where people only follow the orders they agree with...


It depends on the circumstances. If it seems that Satsu is disobeying orders in an arbitrary fashion or without really knowing what she's doing, that would be different. That is not the case here. It could be partly about feelings, but it isn't difficult to produce an intellectual justification for her actions (i.e. that the order was stupid and Buffy would be better off with Satsu fighting by her side). That order was blatant BS and Satsu could see this.

For me, Satsu has been drawn past the realm of order giving and order taking, so this is no longer an issue. It's Buffy that hasn't figured it out. If Buffy really thought she could sleep with her and still have a legitimate subordinate relationship with her, she was in error. Satsu is part of the Scooby-level, non-heirarchical circle now and doesn't take orders. And either Buffy figures that out and how to deal with it (which is going to be extra sticky if they're not in a relationship), or the imbalance is going to poison their whole organization.

Wolfie Gilmore
12-05-08, 04:28 PM
Oh, there's no question. That's why I've also sort of resigned myself to the fact that any real-world organizational problems Buffy would definitely be facing by blurring the lines she has will be wished away, because Joss either A) doesn't understand them and/or B) isn't interested in them. It's kind of aggravating on that level, actually.

I think it’s B, but with a hint of C…Buffy doesn’t understand (or hasn’t inspected her motives and thoughts around) large organisations.

In Buffy and Angel and Firefly, Joss certainly focuses on the dynamics between characters or small groups rather than the macro level of organisations. Blue Sun always remains shadowy, a symbol of big organisations rather than a fleshed out one. The Senior Partners in Angel, ditto – we might as well call them “The Man”. The inner workings of Wolfram and Hart are always secondary to how Angel interacts with particular people within the organisation, whether it’s Lindsey or Lilah or Eve.

Joss, on extant showing, would never write a show like The Wire.

However, I think there is something to be said for the idea that it’s Buffy who hasn’t thought things through as much as Joss. Though I think it’s a mix of both.



Yeah... I think army-by-consensus will have to be something I suspend disbelief about (and it takes as much, if not more, than the underlying vampires and Slayers do). Seriously, there's a $100 bill in the middle of an intersection -- on one side, there's a vampire, on another a Slayer, on another an army where people only follow the orders they agree with...

It’s the messy hybrid nature of the structure that’s a problem. I feel that no one quite knows what is going on, and have different interpretations – to Willow, at least in her spiel to Satsu, it’s a military hierarchy. To Xander…well, he resists military titles, even if he goes along with the structure to a degree.

There are many ways that Buffy COULD organise things… I think it’s the lack of thought that’s the main problem.


For me, Satsu has been drawn past the realm of order giving and order taking, so this is no longer an issue.

The “some slayers are more equal than others” problem. Or favouritism in less Orwellian terms :)

stormwreath
12-05-08, 05:20 PM
However, I think there is something to be said for the idea that it’s Buffy who hasn’t thought things through as much as Joss. Though I think it’s a mix of both.Well, I doubt that Joss thinks these things through beforehand as much as the collective brainpower of several thousand obsessive fans does afterwards... There's only one of him.

But it's not like he's totally inexperienced in running a large organisation himself. As for this being unintentional?? - the whole of Season 8 has been about one thing.

It's about power. Who's got it. Who knows how to use it. It's about power and it's about women and you just hate those two words in the same sentence, don't you?


It’s the messy hybrid nature of the structure that’s a problem. I feel that no one quite knows what is going on, and have different interpretations – to Willow, at least in her spiel to Satsu, it’s a military hierarchy. To Xander…well, he resists military titles, even if he goes along with the structure to a degree. Xander thinks international-jewel-thief Buffy is a sexy role, and he likes it when Renee calls him Sergeant Fury. I think he's having fun with the job. These are a bunch of people in their early twenties who've suddenly acquired helicopters and ray-guns and a bunch of super-powered fighters, and they have no older role-models to tell them what to do, so they're making it up as they go along.

They'll certainly screw up, but perhaps theyll also come up with something better and new. Maybe.

Wolfie Gilmore
12-05-08, 05:28 PM
Well, I doubt that Joss thinks these things through beforehand as much as the collective brainpower of several thousand obsessive fans does afterwards... There's only one of him.

True. Though I would've thought one of the first things you'd do when setting about writing a whole new world order for the Scoobies would be to work out what exactly is different in how they run themselves? But, if the answer is "they're making it all up", as Buffy's said before, then that's an answer in itself.



But it's not like he's totally inexperienced in running a large organisation himself.

Heh. Well, his organisation wasn't the thin blue line against evil though. Just against bad television.


As for this being unintentional?? - the whole of Season 8 has been about one thing.

It's about power. Who's got it. Who knows how to use it. It's about power and it's about women and you just hate those two words in the same sentence, don't you?

Then the fault lies at Buffy's feet. An understandable fault, but still, something that's crying out to be adressed. Hence why they need to get Nabbit on board. He could totally streamline the evil fighting process while ensuring ethical and environmentally friendly business practices. Plus, I just want to see him again. Preferably in a scene with Andrew.



Xander thinks international-jewel-thief Buffy is a sexy role, and he likes it when Renee calls him Sergeant Fury. I think he's having fun with the job. These are a bunch of people in their early twenties who've suddenly acquired helicopters and ray-guns and a bunch of super-powered fighters, and they have no older role-models to tell them what to do, so they're making it up as they go along.

They'll certainly screw up, but perhaps theyll also come up with something better and new. Maybe.

The having fun on the job angle is interesting. Reminds me of Faith - Buffy's speech about how much fun she had leading to people getting stabbded. Fun plus heavy aresenal and combat situations... a heady, dangerous mix.

KingofCretins
12-05-08, 05:36 PM
Well, I doubt that Joss thinks these things through beforehand as much as the collective brainpower of several thousand obsessive fans does afterwards... There's only one of him.

But it's not like he's totally inexperienced in running a large organisation himself. As for this being unintentional?? - the whole of Season 8 has been about one thing.

I submit that the dynamics of organizing a production company for television or movies are flexible in ways that organizing a paramilitary are not.


It's about power. Who's got it. Who knows how to use it. It's about power and it's about women and you just hate those two words in the same sentence, don't you?

But... the point of that scene was to undercut that theme. That theme is soooo Seasons 1 through 7. Buffy put the presumption out there and Voll whisked it away so off handedly that it was silly to suggest it. It's about Knowing Better. It's about Buffy's master race, whether she can have that and use it without it *automatically* being a negative no matter what her intentions are. It's mensch v. ubermensch.

"You think it’s only *men* want to bring you down? You’re not human. You’ve been to war with demons, with the First, but believe me you picked the wrong side. ‘Cause God help us, if you win then you’ll decide the world still isn’t the way you want it and the demon in you will say just one thing. “Slay.” We’re not waiting for that to happen. We will wipe you out. Not just monsters anymore. It’s you against the world. You’re at war with the human race."

That reveal, Voll's answer to Buffy's assumption, is the point of the arc. That information is the quest item that both she and we, the audience, obtained.

Matt
12-05-08, 05:43 PM
I just finished reading this and I loved it, especially the shock at the end which was quite interesting because of what had happened previously in the comic book, but for some reason this one seemed shorter than the others and I can't quite place my finger on what it was.

It might've been the shift in place a lot with different characters and happenings or it might have been because Dawn wasn't it it properly for once, just seemed shorter to me.

Also, was that actually Dawn or was it a glamour?
I'm guessing the first one, but who knows? I guess that solves our question as to how she gets there though.

EDIT: This wasn't shorter, I just realised it seemed shorted because there were a lot of panels without speech in which made me think there were less actual pages, but there weren't.

Also, loving Dracula in this arc, I think he's gonna be useful for Xander considering.

tangent
12-05-08, 07:19 PM
I'm a little torn on the whole blind obedience v rank disobedience thing.

On the one hand Buffy is in charge of a large group of powerful warriors. This requires that there is something or someone who pulls together these idividuals and enables them to work together towards the desired objective. A plan has to be followed, tactics have to be adhered to and there needs to be a clear voice supplying the direction in an unequivocal and unmistakeable fashion.

On the other: the scoobies have never been one for authoritarianism. Point of fact they've almost always been dead set against it and it's been shown that when Buffy takes a 'Do what I say because I say do it' approach it doesn't work. Instead, in her more successful moments, she tends to involve other people, to draw them in and to empower them to join in the fight if they want to. I think if a slayer was dead set against taking a course of action and couldn't be convinced, and if the actual fighting had not started, Buffy would pull short of ordering her into action and wouldn't take any action afterwards. The idea about kicking a slayer out of the BHC isn't far fetched at all but I think the Slayer would have to do a lot more than say 'I'm not going to fight' to earn this. They would have to be another Simone in my opinion.

I also think that Buffy would now be strong enough to take on board others opinions and points of view as she makes her decisions as to how they are going to deploy. A clear battle plan is always needed but how you get to that battleplan is another matter. A lot of the best plans ever shown in BTVS were thought up by other characters or involved their heavy input. This shouldn't just involve the core four but also take into account the opinions of the others who are risking their lives as well. They should have a say in how they risk those lives and should at least know that the contingencies and problems they see with a plan have been thought through and addressed. Once everyone knows and is comfortable with the plan then the one clear voice comes into effect to run the plays although obviously this can be then relayed through squad leaders. The important thing here is that the slayers know what they are doing, why they are doing it, have a choice in wether they do or don't buy in and know that the plan is sound. Once that is done then they can go to war confident that they are fighting for a cause they believe in and aren't going to be just charging the guns.

Now the situation with Satsu is different. Here Satsu want's to fight but Buffy doesn't want her to. she gives her an 'order' to that effect but is it really an order? As soon as she mentions the word she gets into a debate with Satsu and tries to convince her that she is right. That's not something that a general would do with a soldier, they would just give the order and expect it to be followed, punishing the soldier if it wasn't followed. I think that it's unmistakable that the realtionship between Buffy and Satsu has changed because of them sleeping together and that there is a lot of emotion in Satsu's response to Buffy's instructions as there is in Buffy's instructions in the first place. Neither is entirely right in this situation for me and I fully expect there to be a fall out from the stuation If Buffy doesn't address these issues with Satsu once the smoke clears.

alexa
13-05-08, 09:18 AM
So here I go jumping into the thread without reading everyone's posts yet. But I just got this today, and enjoyed it much more then #13. Although I might have enjoyed it more if I wasn't spoiled by a certain someone ;) but that's cool, was kinda wondering if/when Renee was going to get it. Partly because of Xander's bad luck and Joss' sense of tragic timing, but also because it free him up for some Bander a little later. Her death was much sadder then I thought though, after the non date they had :(
But I'm loving Dracula this arc, he's so out of place and funny. Almost fits in the way Spike did in season four.

allthings
13-05-08, 10:59 AM
I have to agree, I did enjoy Drac in this issue. I didnt find his racism last issue funny in the slightest and it seemed so forced or something. Im glad he was in this issue as opposed to wishing he was never in the arc :P

I think I ssee him consoling Xander in part 4 because of Renee's death. Which would be funny because he will be all awkward

holypotatoes
17-05-08, 06:42 PM
Okay so I read the transcript and I have to say, was anyone else sort of hoping it was Satsu that got killed? Probably not, since most of you didn't know that Renee was going to get the axe (pun intended) but I think if it was Satsu instead it would have made the whole Buffy/Satsu arguement better. I mean Buffy doesn't want her to go, Satsu ignores that order, therefore it was setup perfectly for her to get taken out. Not that I want any of the slayers to get hacked to bits but still I think it would've been better if it was Satsu instead. Even though that could demolish all of our theories on whether or not she's the traitor. :headscratch: Anyway, I really liked when Buffy lit the vamp on fire. Reminded me of those fun times in season 5 when she torched the vampwhore house. Good times! My favorite part though was the flaw in Buffy's plan: "All that matters is the scythe. Once we get that back, they can’t hurt us. I mean, except, you know, in the traditional biting and stabbing and clawing sense. But we’ll deal with that when it comes." :roll: It made me laugh.

Koos
17-05-08, 08:05 PM
I mean Buffy doesn't want her to go, Satsu ignores that order, therefore it was setup perfectly for her to get taken out. Not that I want any of the slayers to get hacked to bits but still I think it would've been better if it was Satsu instead.

No, I absolutely disagree. Buffy abused her power for personal feelings. That should not be 'rewarded'.

Anon
17-05-08, 08:19 PM
No, I absolutely disagree. Buffy abused her power for personal feelings. That should not be 'rewarded'.Rewarded? This must be some new definition of the term that I've never seen before. How would losing Satsu be a 'reward' for Buffy's behaviour?

I also don't think that Buffy abused her power. That would imply that she somehow used it to pressure Satsu into sleeping with her. Not only is there no evidence that she did this, but to be honest, I don't think any pressure would have been required. Unfortunately, there is no way to judge who exploited/took advantage of/manipulated whom, as we are not shown what happened in the run up to them sleeping together. Willow suggests that there was a degree of the two of them taking advantage of each other and I think she is probably correct, but power can't be abused if it isn't being used in the first place.

Koos
17-05-08, 09:05 PM
Rewarded? This must be some new definition of the term that I've never seen before. How would losing Satsu be a 'reward' for Buffy's behaviour?

Hence the use of quotation-marks around the world. The word reward refered to Buffy's decision, it is not refering to the loss of Satsu. Buffy decided to order Satsu to stay away from the battlefield. If Satsu would now die on the battlefield, than Buffy would think she had make the right order. Satsu should be on the battlefield exactly for the reason what Satsu gave: she is Buffy's best fighter.



I also don't think that Buffy abused her power. That would imply that she somehow used it to pressure Satsu into sleeping with her.

No, that already has happened. That was not an abuse of power. That was a mutual decision which also has happened in the past. The abuse of power is in this issue and is Buffy ordering Satsu to stay out of the battlefield because out of fear for losing Satsu. Buffy should not let her own personal emotions and her personal affairs interfer with her decisions.

alexa
18-05-08, 01:28 AM
Ah I see what Koos means. I kind of agree, Satsu should be helping out when she's needed. Plus it's kind of getting boring with Buffy ordering away her lovers because they get in the way and because she cares about them. Although did she order Spike away very often? Don't really remember... mostly I remember her asking him for help.

Anon
18-05-08, 07:11 AM
Hence the use of quotation-marks around the world. The word reward referred to Buffy's decision, it is not referring to the loss of Satsu. Buffy decided to order Satsu to stay away from the battlefield. If Satsu would now die on the battlefield, than Buffy would think she had make the right order. Satsu should be on the battlefield exactly for the reason what Satsu gave: she is Buffy's best fighter.OK, that makes things a little clearer. For future reference, the word you were looking for is 'validated' not 'rewarded'.


No, that already has happened. That was not an abuse of power. That was a mutual decision which also has happened in the past. The abuse of power is in this issue and is Buffy ordering Satsu to stay out of the battlefield because out of fear for losing Satsu. Buffy should not let her own personal emotions and her personal affairs interfere with her decisions.Sorry. It's my fault that I misunderstood you here. Now that I see what you were trying to say, I agree with you.

Alexa, I think that there have only been two boyfriends that Buffy did this to, and one of them was Owen when she very briefly dated him in season one, so I don't think you're being entirely fair.

Koos
19-05-08, 04:36 PM
Alexa, I think that there have only been two boyfriends that Buffy did this to, and one of them was Owen when she very briefly dated him in season one, so I don't think you're being entirely fair.

Owen was sent away because she didn't want him to be a part of the team. He lacked a healthy amount of fear. Both Spike and Angel were never sent away out of fear for losing them. Possibly because they are vampires and they are harder to kill or something like that. The only Scoobie she has ever left out of the fight was Xander in The Zeppo and as far as I can remember that's it. It feels kind of out of character for Buffy to do this. It feels a Willow thing to do, as she actually did with Kennedy.

Now with Renee (probably) dead, Xander will probably reflect on his girlfriends in the same way too. It looks like a major theme this season.

Matt
19-05-08, 08:55 PM
I'm speculating here and I'm gonna put in spoilers in case nobody's read this issue yet, but anyway.

I've just been looking at the covers on buffyworld.com and I saw the ones for next issue, part IV and Renee is pictured on the Georges Jeanty one. I was wondering whether anybody thinks this is merely to keep it under wraps that one of them would die? Or perhaps Dracula may make with the turning and we'll actually get to see a Vampire Slayer, I know it's highly unlikely but I just thought considering Renee's practically dead, but still pictured and they have a vampire it could be possible.

tangent
19-05-08, 09:02 PM
I likethat thought Matt. I like it a lot/

It would be very interesting for a character who has had so many problems with vamps to find his new love had to be vampified to live. Would Willow make with the curse? Could Renee turn traitor this way? It's an intriguing thought

Koos
19-05-08, 10:38 PM
It would be very interesting for a character who has had so many problems with vamps to find his new love had to be vampified to live. Would Willow make with the curse? Could Renee turn traitor this way? It's an intriguing thought


The thought had occured to me. Or she could be turned into a cyborg (considering the robotics devision. The idea of a vampire Slayer hasn't been worked out by Joss yet. But somehow I doubt it. I think the cover was meant for the arc, not so much for the issue as KoC had suggested. And I just can't stop thinking that Xander is Twilight anyway. Would there be a place for a vampireSlayer girlfriend in that scenario?

KingofCretins
20-05-08, 02:25 AM
Koos said it -- remember, not all of the Seven Samurai survived, after all. And, no, I don't think Xander would stand for Renee being turned into a vamp (which I doubt is possible anyway -- I think she's already dead in that panel). Why would he accept her being turned into a soulless Renee-shaped monster? It wouldn't be Renee... it would be the thing that killed her. We've known this since 1.02 "The Harvest".

Koos
20-05-08, 04:14 PM
And, no, I don't think Xander would stand for Renee being turned into a vamp (which I doubt is possible anyway -- I think she's already dead in that panel). Why would he accept her being turned into a soulless Renee-shaped monster? It wouldn't be Renee... it would be the thing that killed her. We've known this since 1.02 "The Harvest".

I don't see why this needs to be under spoilor-tags, because this is spoilor thread issue 14 anyway. The rest is speculation based on that information. Anyway,


For those who believe Xander hates vampires and would not stand for a Renee-shaped vampire. Remember vampWillow and Xander's reaction during to her. His first reaction was Willow is a monster, but at the end of the episode he had no problems with her whatsoever.

KingofCretins
20-05-08, 11:43 PM
I would call that, as Oz said in that very episode, a radical interpretation of the text. Xander amused himself with the thought of his vampire alter-ego, he wasn't canoodling VampWillow himself or anything. There's no mistaking what she is on his part. He knows he's safe around her in that scene because she's there to cooperate in getting sent home, and Buffy is there. Not because he's "okay" with her.

Xander does hate vampires... as one should, really. Vampires aren't a misunderstood and oppressed, they aren't victims of bigotry or intolerance. They're demons, monsters, and killers. Exceptions occur only in extraordinary circumstances.

LaJaula
21-05-08, 12:46 AM
I think that, were Renee to be vamped, Xander's reaction would be much like Gunn's in War Zone. He'd feel incredibly pained and sad about doing it, but he'd stake her.

And assuming that Xander does decide to act (IMO) incredibly OOC and refuse to stake VampRenee, what possibly storyline is there? She's not like Spike with a chip in her head, or Illyria who is lost and powerless; she's going to be running around killing people. She'd probably join the Japanese vamps, actually. So either they tie her up in the castle as their prisoner, or she becomes the enemy and we have Angelus: Part Two. I don't think that there's much potential there.

litzie
21-05-08, 11:50 AM
I like the sudden and unexpected impaling of renee better than a vamping...that's be done on Buffy, and on angel...this reminds me more of Tara's death, because of it being somewhat out of the blue...and of course, because it comes right after a key getting-together-romantically moment for renee and Xander...

Wolfie Gilmore
21-05-08, 12:14 PM
because it comes right after a key getting-together-romantically moment for renee and Xander...

Yeah - it's practically a law of physics in the Jossverse. "A body achieving harmonious interaction, whehter of a sexual or a romantic nature, with another body must, according to Whedon's Law, be destroyed consecutive to this interaction"

vampmogs
21-05-08, 12:50 PM
For those who believe Xander hates vampires and would not stand for a Renee-shaped vampire. Remember vampWillow and Xander's reaction during to her. His first reaction was Willow is a monster, but at the end of the episode he had no problems with her whatsoever.

Xander from Entropy in season six;

XANDER: You let that (Spike) evil soulless thing touch you. I look at you (Anya) and I feel sick. Because you had sex with that.

Now whilst it isn't out of the realm of possibility that Xander may apply different standards to himself, which he did in relation to Anya in comparison to Buffy/Angel, I think there's fairly strong indications throughout the series that Xander hates vampires. Which as others have pointed out, he should, there's nothing about them to like.

Which is why I choose to believe that Andrew has embellished his story concerning Xander and Dracula. Until we learn from someone far more reliable everything he said was fact, I'm not buying it, because that'd be utter bull.

Ronin
29-05-08, 05:45 AM
I know I’m not exactly being quick to the table with this, but has anyone else wondered why Dawn didn’t unleash a flood of vomit onto the streets of Tokyo, or fall face first onto everyone below? I don’t think it’s anything terribly important, but I was thinking about it, and I’m curious as to what somebody else thinks about that.

KingofCretins
29-05-08, 05:50 AM
I know where you're going with that, and it's a good point -- difference though (with a dose of fanwank) is that Willow used a different spell to bring Dawn than she used to retrieve Buffy or Roden used to take her. That spell was a very violent thing, took her against her will and without her knowledge. It also came from Roden's book (I suspect Willow got it by running some sort of magical "trace" on it and using it to bring Buffy back). This spell was in latin, sorta, and since Dawn came ready to fight (with gloves), she knew it was coming. I'll fanwank this as being a case where, since she knew about the spell, she might have even been participating on her end. Since it wasn't an act of force against her will, it didn't come with the nasty side effects.

vampmogs
29-05-08, 06:24 AM
Yeah I agree with King. I don't think teleportation always comes with those nasty side effects, only when the person isn't expecting it to happen or is unwillingly teleported. Angel was teleported a few times in Ats and he never had the effects but Buffy and Dawn did in 'Two to Go' because they weren't expecting it.