Twilight's Identity, Part Deux

[KingofCretins]

Okay... I've hit upon a boat load more textual and subtextual evidence that points the finger at Riley, and I want to collect it all in one place for your consideration.

I am in the middle of a rewatch of Season 6. In "As You Were", Riley and Sam's tactical outfits were of particular interest.

Riley and Sam about to leave (http://www.screencap-paradise.com/caps/displayimage.php?pid=65209&fullsize=1) -- notice, the body armor appears a dark brown in contrast to the black/dark grey top.

Buffy and Riley in profile (http://www.screencap-paradise.com/caps/displayimage.php?pid=65161&fullsize=1) -- pay particular attention to the waist line.

Twilight, from 8.09 (http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii145/idiotnighthawk/Twilight.jpg)

The parallels are striking -- take into account the difference in lighting, the difference in visual medium, and the likelihood that Georges' best reference photos are really, really poorly lit. Doesn't this seem like it's essentially the same outfit? Plus the Twilight logo, the overcoat, and the mask?

I'm feeling much more solid about Riley as Twilight. I have a working theory as to his motivation -- Sam killed by insane and/or rogue Slayer. He doesn't hold it precisely against Buffy, just sees it as something to be corrected. Further, a working theory as to his powers -- (spoilers for possible lack of relevance) he is a Buffyverse adaptation of "The Hood" (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/hoodmax.htm), a Brian K. Vaughan character with similar powers to Twilight who obtains them by wearing boots and a cloak taken from a Nisanti demon. Nisanti is a word that also appears in Twilight's "guidebook" as part of Roden's teleportation spell.

Idea here being Riley loses his wife, realizes that it's the supernatural forces in the world that are the cause of the all major problems, and uses artifacts, the boots (first thing we see of him?) and the cloak, maybe the mask to obtain the power he needs to carry it out. He has his military background and ties to influence human authority and his newfound powers to influence and manipulate the supernatural.

So you end up with an enemy who manipulates the supernatural to do what he wants it to do while getting it killed in the process.

Now, it did have me wondering -- why take the name "Twilight"? Or even beyond the character's motivation, why give the character the name "Twilight", if you're Joss? I mean, if the identity itself was a mystery, you'd want it to be solvable, and I couldn't think of a single thing that would connect the idea of "twilight" to Riley, until it just floated through my head --

RILEY
Don't worry. If I kiss you,
it'll make the sun go down.

I mean... yikes. It's right there. We've got the villain that seems to *understand* Buffy, know what drives her and what makes her strong and what makes her weak, and doesn't seem to want badly for her (apart from a willingness to kill her if she stands in his way). That's the "kiss" -- and his name provides the rest.

Another thing that got me thinking was, thematically, the "Sam got killed" theory would blend well with something that's been running through the whole season so far -- Buffy seeing herself (and being?) responsible for both negative consequences of the Slayer spell, and negative effects on the people around her. We see an anonymous Slayer killed to protect her. We have her blaming herself for Simone going rogue. We have, most poignantly, Willow tacitly blaming Buffy's mere existence for Tara being killed (definitely would parallel Riley losing Sam due to the spell).

Even if you don't think this would be the right way for Joss to go, is there anything that doesn't fit just perfectly?

[Curiouswolf]

Riley as Twilight is plausible. Another possibility is the return of Adam just with all the demon parts removed, maybe replaced with robot parts with skin grafts grown over them? Riley could then be his conflicted henchman/advisor. The reason why I'd bring up Adam is because Joss, Loeb, and Brian K. Vaughn kept bringing up season 4 as a season they'd do over again in one of their interviews with Wizard.

Caleb is also a possibility because Joss just adores Nathan Fillion but it would not be as interesting as Adam or Riley would be. Riley-or-Adam-as-Twilight would also make Riley a good candidate for the traitor as I think Satsu is just a red herring.

[KingofCretins]

I don't think Adam was popular enough -- I don't think Joss has any illusions that Adam was a villain that really resonated with the audience. Riley was also featured more prominently in Season 4 than anywhere else, so all those references work just as well for him without even having to introduce Adam.

It's sort of sickly fascinating, too -- Riley *does* resonate with most of the fandom, because if you don't like him, you tend to *despise* him, usually because of rival 'shipping interests. For the people that like him, it would be this really painful but fascinating twist on him, for the people that hate him, it would probably be at least a little gratifying to see him get the black hat treatment.

[redrevo]

Simple question, why wouldn't Buffy recognize his voice? And why would he be so keen on disguising himself? Wouldn't he be happier if Buffy ended the spell voluntarily?

And even if all these questions were answered perfectly by Joss, it would still seem like fan pandering. Not fascinating at all.

[Curiouswolf]

I don't think Adam was popular enough -- I don't think Joss has any illusions that Adam was a villain that really resonated with the audience. Riley was also featured more prominently in Season 4 than anywhere else, so all those references work just as well for him without even having to introduce Adam.

It doesn't have anything to do with popularity but Joss wanting to re-do a storyline that he wasn't happy with in the first place. Riley is possible but also too obvious but then the comic has done obvious before. There was a callback to the Restless dream in issue#11. In one sequence in Buffy's dream, she sees Riley and an Adam in human form in cahoots together. Maybe, Joss is doing backshadowing here?

If Twilight was Adam then I wonder if that vague drawing in issue #11 of that male human military official amongst his followers was Riley? Just a thought.


It's sort of sickly fascinating, too -- Riley *does* resonate with most of the fandom, because if you don't like him, you tend to *despise* him, usually because of rival 'shipping interests. For the people that like him, it would be this really painful but fascinating twist on him, for the people that hate him, it would probably be at least a little gratifying to see him get the black hat treatment.

I don't despise Riley. I was bored with him season 4 but I liked him a lot in early season 5. However, the Riley of "As You Were" I utterly despised not because he exposed Spike but because he was utterly Mister Perfect and so unbelievable. I guess it's "Saint Cordelia" syndrome and Joss feels he has to go the opposite route for another "perfect" character all over again.

Instead of being Twilight, I think it would be more interesting for Riley to be a conflicted advisor divided between two sides. That would be juicier for the character.

[Michael]

I like the idea of Riley as Twilight, because it fits in with an idea that comes to me when looking at some of the speculation about the future.

Will Buffy form an alliance with Twilight to bring the age of magic to an end? It fits the legend of a slayer who played a central role in an apocalyptic battle that drove all the demons from the earth and brought the line of slayers to an end.

It could involve Buffy in a tragic conflict with some of her friends, and also with creatures like Giles, who want to hang on to magic.

The end of magic is a fine mythical, life enhancing idea that I could see Buffy embracing. I could see Faith joining her.

[Sacred Knight]

I personally think its the most plausible idea we have at the moment. And even if it doesn't turn out to be true, you've backed up your theory fantastically.

I don't see how its fan pandering. Especially considering the majority of fans seem to dislike Riley enough that they don't want him around at all, as a hero or villain. Bringing Riley back as a Big Bad is just the opposite of fan pandering considering that.

[ThePoet's<3]

Sweetheart you are singing to the choir!

I am going to be so disappointed if it's NOT Riley! From the beginning I have thought it had to be him. And your premise is exactly what I've been saying all along too - something happens to Sam to "turn" Riley and he wants to do away with magicks once and for all.

Other evidence that convinces me:

- His vampire "habit" he had in S5
- His extreme dislike of Spike (And it's not *just* Spike but the fact that Buffy has been involved physically with the vampires)
- He and Sam both were still involved in some sort of demon hunting business in "As You Were". It wasn't an organized "Innitiative" but almost like bounty hunters/mercenaries for killing demons.
- I know I am in the minority but I still think he was behind the "Demon-egg Deal" to break Spike and Buffy up.
- And, I can see him harboring some type of resentment in her contacting him to have someone remove Spike's chip.
- Which leads to the fact he was still up to some type of secret military work by the way Buffy had to get in contact with him - and there were still people who could remove Spike's chip.

I think he would make the perfect Big Bad!! Mr. All American Normal Guy going off the deep end! The monster was always there.

[Nina]

I'm afraid that Twilight will be the bad guy, with good points or not. And that is why I don't want a scooby or an ex-scooby to be Twilight. It would destroy Riley character and I don't see why he would do it. Yes he had trouble with Spike, Faith and Angel, but he never had trouble with Tara, Willow, Anya, Buffy or Oz. He isn't scared for supernatural things. Yes, he is fighting demons, but that's what Buffy does and what Angel does ...

Nope, I still hope that Twilight is Caleb or another (semi)bad guy.

[Cinderela]

I don't think Adam was popular enough -- I don't think Joss has any illusions that Adam was a villain that really resonated with the audience. Riley was also featured more prominently in Season 4 than anywhere else, so all those references work just as well for him without even having to introduce Adam.

It's sort of sickly fascinating, too -- Riley *does* resonate with most of the fandom, because if you don't like him, you tend to *despise* him, usually because of rival 'shipping interests. For the people that like him, it would be this really painful but fascinating twist on him, for the people that hate him, it would probably be at least a little gratifying to see him get the black hat treatment.

*Riley*, YES! *Adam*, NO! Riley does seem to invoke rather strong feelings, both good and bad in the fandom. I have always been fond of Riley, and having him play such a huge role in S8 would be awesome! At some point, Buffy and Riley would certainly have to deal with the remnants of their feelings!

Sweetheart you are singing to the choir!

I am going to be so disappointed if it's NOT Riley! From the beginning I have thought it had to be him. And your premise is exactly what I've been saying all along too - something happens to Sam to "turn" Riley and he wants to do away with magicks once and for all.

Other evidence that convinces me:

- His vampire "habit" he had in S5
- His extreme dislike of Spike (And it's not *just* Spike but the fact that Buffy has been involved physically with the vampires)
- He and Sam both were still involved in some sort of demon hunting business in "As You Were". It wasn't an organized "Innitiative" but almost like bounty hunters/mercenaries for killing demons.
- I know I am in the minority but I still think he was behind the "Demon-egg Deal" to break Spike and Buffy up.
- And, I can see him harboring some type of resentment in her contacting him to have someone remove Spike's chip.
- Which leads to the fact he was still up to some type of secret military work by the way Buffy had to get in contact with him - and there were still people who could remove Spike's chip.

I think he would make the perfect Big Bad!! Mr. All American Normal Guy going off the deep end! The monster was always there.

You two are singing my song! I would absolutely LOVE :heart: it if Riley were Twilight!

[vampmogs]

Whilst I agree with the idea that a slayer could have possibly killed Sam, I don't agree with a lot of your list :)


- His vampire "habit" he had in S5

I'm not sure why that would play in at all? What do you mean by this could you explain it if you don't mind? :)

- His extreme dislike of Spike (And it's not *just* Spike but the fact that Buffy has been involved physically with the vampires)

Riley hated Spike, no surprises there. But he was with Buffy a long time after knowing she'd been with Angel in the past, and tells Buffy in 'As You Were' that he "hated seeing her in bed with that idiot" but that it "doesn't touch her" and she's still "one hell of a woman."

- He and Sam both were still involved in some sort of demon hunting business in "As You Were". It wasn't an organized "Innitiative" but almost like bounty hunters/mercenaries for killing demons.

I'm not sure why this would make him Twilight? He was doing what good guys should do, killing demons and saving people's lives.

- I know I am in the minority but I still think he was behind the "Demon-egg Deal" to break Spike and Buffy up.

You know my thoughts on this :lol: IMO Riley didn't care enough about Spike to do this, I mean are we really going to believe he came all the way back to Sunnydale just to break Buffy and Spike up? Who he'd have no clue were even together in the first place? It also doesn't make sense considering Spike had the eggs down in his lair and knew it, I doubt Riley placed them there then Spike just shrugged and decided to keep them. Thirdly, Sam would have had to be in on this and I really doubt it woulda went down well with the Mrs when Riley told her they had to go all the way to Sunnydale so he could break up his ex's relationship.

- And, I can see him harboring some type of resentment in her contacting him to have someone remove Spike's chip.

Riley acted like a champ, he gave her the decision making in wether or not Spike should be chipped again or not.

I think he would make the perfect Big Bad!! Mr. All American Normal Guy going off the deep end! The monster was always there.

The monster was always there? When? How was Riley a monster?

[ntshpp]

I think, that Twi is the captain Mal Reynolds from Firefly. :)

[ThePoet's<3]

Okay - so I'm watching Buffy Season 4 today and arrived at the episode "New Man". This is the episode where Ethan Rayne rolls back into town and turns Giles into a demon.

The ending is what really caught my attention - when Giles is no longer a demon, Riley and the Innitiative take Ethan into custody at a secret detention fcility in the Nevada desert.

I thought it was interesting that it was Riley and the Innitiative who had the last contact with Ethan Rayne - the same Ethan Rayne who was killed by the Twilight organization in the early chapters of Season 8 (Issues 3-4). Ethan was warning Giles about the Innitiative before he turned Giles into the demons.

"This new outfit is blundering into places it doesn't belong; throwing the worlds out of balance and that's way beyond chaos, mate."

[BlasterBoy]

Great theory, KoC, and you have some great evidence there. But, how would Riley now Buffy's splitting move to Caleb? That's what has me most intrigued. I mean, who knew about that other than Caleb and Angel? It can't be Angel, and Caleb's dead! Everything else leads to Riley, though.

[vampmogs]

I thought it was interesting that it was Riley and the Innitiative who had the last contact with Ethan Rayne - the same Ethan Rayne who was killed by the Twilight organization in the early chapters of Season 8 (Issues 3-4). Ethan was warning Giles about the Innitiative before he turned Giles into the demons.

Well we don't know if Riley ever saw Ethan again after the other two men took Ethan away. Technically the last person to see him was probably Giles when he very wanted to see them manhandle him into a car. Riley stayed back with Buffy. It's possible Riley could seen Ethan later on or knew where they took him exactly, but Maggie Walsh and the whole organisation kept a lot from Riley. Remember that Riley only become a problem for them when he started asking questions.

[Kold]

Great theory, KoC, and you have some great evidence there. But, how would Riley now Buffy's splitting move to Caleb? That's what has me most intrigued. I mean, who knew about that other than Caleb and Angel? It can't be Angel, and Caleb's dead! Everything else leads to Riley, though.
Buffy did kinda shout it from the rooftops when she killed him, and it seems to me that most of her escapades have gotten around the Slayer camp/to General Voll. It's not that hard to believe. It is a little strange that the writers would use the move and make the reference if it was nothing, though.

I'm not convinced that Twilight has to be someone we've seen before. I just don't think it's necessary. But maybe that's been stated in press releases, so I'll shut up.

Thorough theory, KoC. I loved the idea that Joss may be retrospectively interpreting Buffy's old dreams.

[allthings]

I dont think Twilight is Riley. I think the Riley storyline was done and dusted in 'As You Were', I doubt Joss would bring back an unpopular character as Twilight (although I liked Riley :P). It has to be someone with a past personal vendetta against Slayers.

[vampmogs]

I dont think Twilight is Riley. I think the Riley storyline was done and dusted in 'As You Were', I doubt Joss would bring back an unpopular character as Twilight (although I liked Riley :P). It has to be someone with a past personal vendetta against Slayers.

Well Joss did say Riley would appear in season 8 so his story isn't finished in 'As You Were.' It's just a question of how and in what way.

[Nina]

Maybe its already asked ... but can't it be an Ats character? I've no idea who could be Twilight, but maybe some of you have suggestions? (Yes, I try everything that isn't Riley ... because I think that it would be OOC for Riley to be Twilight, only if a slayer killed Sam I could believe it.)


But I think that we don't know him yet, if we knew him ... he was a good guy or a dead guy. And both would need some great writing to make it believable. So, maybe an Ats character if it's already a known character?

[Anon]

I don't think Twilight is Riley. I think the Riley storyline was done and dusted in 'As You Were', I doubt Joss would bring back an unpopular character as Twilight (although I liked Riley :P). It has to be someone with a past personal vendetta against Slayers.Not necessarily. I think Twilight could be Whistler or someone like that. Why? Because Twilight is full of anomalies and contradictions. A slayer (presumably Buffy) brings about the death of magic (Twilight's stated goal). Twilight's followers seem to be largely witches, warlocks and demons, all of whom have a lot to lose from the death of magic. Finally, there is no clear connection between the death of slayers and the death of magic, unless the latter causes the former, in which case waging war on Buffy's organisation makes no sense as it would be better to simply keep Twilight's activities hidden from them.

The only way I can make everything fit is if the threat that emerges to balance out the existence of Buffy's organisation is Twilight and his followers, in which case Twilight could be playing pretty much everyone involved to serve some agenda that is entirely his own.

[Skippcomet]

Maybe its already asked ... but can't it be an Ats character? I've no idea who could be Twilight, but maybe some of you have suggestions? (Yes, I try everything that isn't Riley ... because I think that it would be OOC for Riley to be Twilight, only if a slayer killed Sam I could believe it.)


But I think that we don't know him yet, if we knew him ... he was a good guy or a dead guy. And both would need some great writing to make it believable. So, maybe an Ats character if it's already a known character?

There was some early (for season 8) interview in which Joss was asked about any characters from AtS possibly showing up, and Joss said that the only ones who would probably ever show up would be Angel and Spike, that the rest of the AtS cast would probably stay over in AtS unless there was some role that absolutely only one of them could play in the Season 8 story. Since in After the Fall Cordelia's still dead and Wesley's a ghost (and Harmony's a no-show), there are no other characters beside the Soul Boys who've even showed up in BtVS before, so I'm guessing Twilight probably isn't from AtS.

[Nina]

Thanks for the answer. :) So, no Lindsay for Twilight.

So, I guess that I've to pray that they don't destroy one of the BtVS characters to create a shock effect.

[allthings]

I still think Twilight is Caleb because of the bit in 'A Beautiful Sunset' when Buffy swings the scythe between Twilight's legs and he says he rememembers that move well. Thats my olnly reason for thinking it too haha. But the way Twilight speaks is as if he knows her so I get why people think its Riley. When do you think we will find out?

[ThePoet's<3]

Don't know - but after re-watching Season 4 and 5 recently I was overcome with "Riley is Twilight".

But it would be interesting if it did turn out to be Caleb.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Still hoping for someone new – though I wonder if people would be disappointed with that, after all the speculation?

Caleb would bore me to tears.

Riley, if done well, could be interesting... but still, a little...I don't know what the word is... too hurried perhaps? Because the motives wouldn't be inherent in the character, we'd have to be shown flashbacks/given monologues of what brought him to the dark side of the force? (cue picture of his wife dying in childbirth ;)) But, never say never until the story's on the page I guess, and there are ways of making almost any skeleton plot into a juicy one with the right flesh.

Caleb wouldn't require any such explanations... but I just think he's annoying, and wouldn't buy him as Twilight in terms of Twilight's subtlety and intelligent cruelty. Caleb is crass.

I think it's the Cheese Guy. :D

[NileQT87]

being that three people know about how caleb was killed--caleb, angel and spike... it could be one of those three. let's knock out spike due to his body build. angel never actually saw caleb die because he was knocked out (supposedly). he just saw the split halves.

riley is another option. it would be kind of hilarious if all three of buffy's main exes were watching her kill caleb.

another option: giles. he doesn't think buffy's on the right path and they are running their own shows.

there was either a watcher's council break-in, smuggling out (sirk) or something sent by the watcher's council themselves (the council being pretty much a giles monarchy). the lineage ninjas are still unknown--and they were sent by supposed good guys who didn't trust angel. who else didn't trust angel at wolfram & hart? the watcher's council a.k.a. giles and andrew in damage and a hole in the world. furthermore, a bunch of armored guys with full-face masks and glamors built from watcher's council records... not far from twilight's look... and a further tie to the council.

if they were trying to set up giles as the villain, tying it to lineage and all the ats season 5 stuff seems like good foreshadowing. the fred thing hurt giles in the eyes of many fans.

if i recall, tony head even stated he would like to get the opportunity to play a villain.

the thing that makes me think riley would be the military component. riley also gets points for mentioning buffy's failed love life. that would point it to possibly be an ex and rule out caleb (though not necessarily leave giles out of the running).

body-build-wise... giles, angel, riley and caleb all fit the large build and height difference with buffy. when we saw twilight's chin, it doesn't look like david's or nathan's. tony and marc's chins look closer.

granted, it's a comic. but i couldn't help but notice that that couldn't possibly be david or nathan's chin.

twilight seemed to know buffy personally, imo. twilight was almost protective. caleb is too crass for that flight talk. xander, giles, angel, spike and riley are the male possibilities there. let's rule out angel and spike since they are probably under 'sparing use' in btvs. xander, giles and riley, i think, are the ones that could be twilight.

i'm actually leaning towards giles or riley.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Some random thoughts – likely and unlikely – about who could be twilight, if it’s not (as I hope) someone new, nor Riley or Caleb:

Graham Miller - I've always thought he had the potential to be a bit evil (and wrote a season 8 fanfic to that effect a while back). Plus, he was all bitchy about Buffy stealing Riley away from the military, so Buffy and her love life is definitely of relevance to him. He’d have the military contacts, and no doubt an anti-demon jones that could lead to an anti-magic stance. Plus, big square jaw like Twilight ;)

Tucker Wells – Ok, not all that likely, but I really want a scene with him being unmasked in front of Andrew and it turning into a whole Darth Vader thing but with Andrew being pissed it’s not his father because it doesn’t scan the same :D

Larry – we think Larry’s dead, but when did that ever stop anyone? Perhaps he’s dead and pissed and blames Buffy?

Hank Summers – who knows what he’s really like? He’s been such a cipher for so long that he’s a bit of a blank slate. So, he could just as easily be evil as not, given the high evil-going ratio of Buffyverse characters.

Miss Kitty Fantastico – back from the dead in the body of a man. As with Larry, pissed at the scoobies for killing her. Also, cats are inherently a bit evil and capable of anything, especially emotional cruelty.

Parker – he’s evil. Fact. Maybe he’s been working out.

[allthings]

Some random thoughts – likely and unlikely – about who could be twilight, if it’s not (as I hope) someone new, nor Riley or Caleb:

Graham Miller - I've always thought he had the potential to be a bit evil (and wrote a season 8 fanfic to that effect a while back). Plus, he was all bitchy about Buffy stealing Riley away from the military, so Buffy and her love life is definitely of relevance to him. He’d have the military contacts, and no doubt an anti-demon jones that could lead to an anti-magic stance. Plus, big square jaw like Twilight ;)

Tucker Wells – Ok, not all that likely, but I really want a scene with him being unmasked in front of Andrew and it turning into a whole Darth Vader thing but with Andrew being pissed it’s not his father because it doesn’t scan the same :D

Larry – we think Larry’s dead, but when did that ever stop anyone? Perhaps he’s dead and pissed and blames Buffy?

Hank Summers – who knows what he’s really like? He’s been such a cipher for so long that he’s a bit of a blank slate. So, he could just as easily be evil as not, given the high evil-going ratio of Buffyverse characters.

Miss Kitty Fantastico – back from the dead in the body of a man. As with Larry, pissed at the scoobies for killing her. Also, cats are inherently a bit evil and capable of anything, especially emotional cruelty.

Parker – he’s evil. Fact. Maybe he’s been working out.


I actually like the idea that Twilight could be Parker, although he isnt as big as Twilight. Its gives us more reason to hate him and then we can be joyous when Buffy kills kim :roll:

[vampmogs]

The move with the scythe between the legs, was used on Caleb, but it doesn't have to be the first time Buffy has done that. It works great as a misdirect because Joss must have known everyone would immediately think of Caleb, but though we haven't seen it, it doesn't mean Buffy hasn't used that move plenty of times.

Buffy and Angel patrolled regularly together, Buffy and Spike patrolled together a number of times as well, as did Riley. So all three of her exes could have seen her use that move on demons a bunch of times. Giles could have also trained her in that move as well, so it still works in that way as well.

It's also very possible that the "cutting of the balls" could be symbolism for how Riley felt Buffy treat him throughout their relationship. I don't believe he had a problem with strong women at all as some others do, but he did feel did give up everything for his "one true love." Graham mocked him for being "the missions boyfriend." In fact, Spike was accused of being whipped, and most certainly was, in season 7 as well. So it's very possible the "I know that move" could be a reference to the personal effects Buffy has had on the men she's had relationships with, and not necessarily the specific move of cutting them with the scythe.

Heck, it could even fit as Warren. He did have a problem with strong woman, Buffy did "smash his orbs" he's exactly the kind of person to make a crass statement such as thing, about Buffy cutting him from the groin up.

But I really doubt it'd ever be Angel and Spike for obvious reasons, even if After the Fall is technically before season 8, so Riley or Giles seem the most likely.

That, or Twilight was just watching Buffy for a while, after all it was likely he supplied Gigi and Roden with all the tapes of her.

[NileQT87]

it's not warren. warren and amy were both in government cells while twilight was out and about with molter.

the person just seems to know too much about buffy on a really PERSONAL level for it to be somebody like caleb or somebody new.

head-shape/chin wise... i'm leaning giles.

on the riley side--the "twilight" link discussed earlier, the military and being an ex of buffy--knowing about her failed love life. riley never liked buffy's saving of morally ambiguous "magic" types. riley also has a low opinion of buffy's judgment regarding angel and spike. riley also HATES magic, has a very black and white view of the non-human world being something to be defeated, but kind of wished he, himself, had superpowers--he wanted to measure up. twilight has superpowers and hates magic.

on the giles side--"moral certainty" and the slayer spell being a bad decision--almost sounds like a good guy thinking it is his job to clean up a mess he thinks buffy has made. also giles' fishy associations with very likely doing a lot of things behind buffy's back or at least not with her full knowledge (dana, not helping fred because of angel and faith/gigi).

on the angel side--churches (angelus was kind of obsessed with them), knowing the move used on caleb, knowing the failed love life, knowing buffy's "moral certainty" and how to take her apart (nobody knows how better than angelus), having been on the receiving end of a crazy slayer (dana), having gotten a very poor view of what buffy's been up to on numerous occasions since he's been gone, including the failed love life (him, parker, riley, spike, thinking she was parading around with the immortal, etc...) and giles' refusing to help with fred. problem? in hell and owned by a different publishing company. also, not angel-like at all. angelus is more of a anti-humanity type than a anti-magic one--he just wants to destroy humanity and purity. angel--well, definitely pro-humanity, but while he fights for humanity, he doesn't forget the ones stuck in the middle like buffy, lorne, etc...

speaking of churches--there aren't a lot of religion-obsessed characters in the jossverse outside of angel, caleb and drusilla. being that dru is neither a big and tall male or sane enough to give that linear of a speech, we can safely say it's not her.

also--remember my weird little rant about how winged lions are a symbol of st. mark (and venice)? well, holy cow what i just learned. the griffin on angel's back, which is a drawing from the book of kells... is a symbol of st. mark.

i really want this to tie into lineage (or at least tell who these good guys wanting to eliminate angel were!!!). the masked/armor look in particular, as well as the very specific roger wyndham-pryce watcher's council records programming. there was a recurring theme in season 5 ats of good guys not trusting angel (giles on one occasion and andrew being a spokespiece for likely him two more times--telling angel and spike to move on sounds like giles, not cookie dough there's-always-wishful-hope buffy, whom giles has already told her that he respects when her bad boyfriends have the willpower to leave her).

it would make massive sense for giles to have thought angel needed to be eliminated for running wolfram & hart (we already know andrew was repeating a line about nobody trusting him anymore), we know andrew was working and reporting to giles, it is andrew's pink-haired punk slayer who is the latest troublemaker, giles has had almost no contact with buffy and his running his own game and the mouthpiece for taking dana, the first of the slayers gone awry, was again, andrew. if giles is twilight, it confirms all the previous actions being of a good guy thinking he's cleaning up other peoples' messes. in fact, twilight is the one whose moral certainty is running rampant.

also--this person has a good knowledge of magic. he knows how to make himself fly and has good reflexes. angel and giles were both magic users with large builds. riley might try to get magic powers if only to make up for his lost supersoldier abilities.

[allthings]

I have to say I really dont think Twilight is Giles. I wouldnt finding it shocking or clever, id find it appaling that Joss would ruin a character a lot of fans love. Although Buffy and Giles' relationship has been Rocky since 'Lies My Parents Told Me', I dont see why Giles would turn to the darkside willingly. Maybe if the magic folk working for Twilight used their magicks to control him then it could happen.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I have to say I really dont think Twilight is Giles. I wouldnt finding it shocking or clever, id find it appaling that Joss would ruin a character a lot of fans love.

Also, they've already made him explicitly acting in a way that Buffy sees as disloyal. They've already made him her nemesis in a small way. Making him Twilight would just be a waste of that whole plot - because why would he be deploying himself to deal with his own minions?? And, on the level of the writing, it's just inelegant to use him in both contexts.

[NileQT87]

i agree it would be bad use of the character. and plus--ripper.

i guess the church thing points to caleb (as well as the splitting).

riley is way less liked than giles, so i don't think there'd be quite so much of an uproar if it's riley. cheap use of fan loyalties, but it would certainly give him a significantly more dramatic arc. and i think the part of it i would actually like is the juxtaposition of riley's black and white views on the supernatural world and wanting to be a superbeing at the same time. because that is exactly what twilight is.

i still want lineage, damage and a hole in the world accounted for. thankfully, a girl in question was given an adequate explanation--obviously, joss didn't shy away from introducing ats plots back into btvs--it's not like btvs comic readers haven't mostly all been fans of both shows. lineage seems the most vague of all. roger's records and sirk stealing a ton of books definitely make me question just what happened to the council and just what kind of council giles is now running.

and frankly, i'm totally on giles and faith's side in no future for you--buffy frequently doesn't give faith enough credit--and not the faith that buffy thinks she knows--the faith that angel helped redeem. i honestly have more respect right now for faith than buffy. it would suck if giles were twilight for her. then it would really be only angel and wesley on her side--it would suck for her to lose the new relationship with giles.

[Nearly Headless Ned]

Twilight-Kenny the Thricewise. (Why would a supernatural character just 'happen' to end up with 'The Key'?)
Unexpected Betrayal-Dawn. (she probably told Kenny/Twilight about the scythe in the happy sack move as well!)

[allthings]

Im starting to think maybe Twilight could be Hank Summers....

I was talking to my friends last night about Dawn's introduction and issues with Hank. We see in Angels 'I Will Remember You' that Buffy still visits her dad but as soon as Dawn is introduced Hank became a 'bad' father, e.g not showing up for visits, Joyce being ill, Joyce's funeral etc. Maybe something went wrong when the Monk's sent Dawn and altered everyones memories which interrupted Hank's state of mind somehow, or the Monk's knew Hank was evil or something. It is pretty far fetched but it just got me thinking lol

[ennui]

They never said specifically when Hank stopped visiting Buffy, but by Fear Itself (4.4), Buffy mentioned his absence (which was nearly a year before Dawn showed up). I would hate for it to be Hank - he was a jerky father, but he wasn't out to kill his daughter. Either way, it seems a little far fetched.

I hope the betrayer is Dawn. I fear the betrayer is Xander. I'm pretty sure that it's not Willow or Giles.

[NimNams]

Twilight-Kenny the Thricewise. (Why would a supernatural character just 'happen' to end up with 'The Key'?)
Unexpected Betrayal-Dawn. (she probably told Kenny/Twilight about the scythe in the happy sack move as well!)

Plus, the name "Twilight" would suggest that he and Dawn aren't exactly on the same page. Maybe Dawn didn't expect Kenny to go this far?

It'd need further backstory to tie the loop, but Kenny is a viable option.

[Matt]

I'm not sure whether this has been discussed but just finished re-reading the Faith arc, No Future For You and at the end of part 4 there's that scene with Twilight and I had this idea that it could be a vampire.

I mean, I know the sun is setting at that point, but I thought the sun only harmed them if it was direct anyway so if they were, oh say, going hell for leather from head to toe then they could walk around in it as much as they liked and that's exactly what Twilight can do. The only time we see Twilight take of any part of the outfit is in 8.10 Anywhere But Here and that's his mask, when it's dark anyway.

Judging by the shape of Twilight the only person I can imagine it being as a vampire is Icarus from the Fray series, which may or may not work. I mean, the head mask makes it look like Twilight is bald, as is Icarus and Twilight wants to bring about the end of magic which means Icarus could have been sent back in time by Harth's orders to make sure this happens so that everything that happened in the Fray series actually happens. This could also explain Buffy's trip to the future because Twilight could be commuting back to the future or something and Buffy could get taken along as a consequence.

It's just a theory, a very long and farfetched theory, but hey, anything's possible, right?

Has anyone considered Twilight could be a woman, I mean, just 'cause they say it's a man it could have a voice-changing thing or something built in to make throw Buffy off the scent, then again it could be someone completely new.

[dinamo]

I don't really have too much of an opinion of who I think Twilight is. I'd like it to be Caleb purely because I want it to be address/known/realised that The First Evil wasn't beaten just beaten back. Plus why all the belts and mask, unless your being held together and hiding a scar that goes vertically along your body, lol. I think some of the ways he talked was Caleb like. But also its a Caleb who is a bit older, wiser, not so quick to misjudge the slayer. The First I don't think was completely stupid and must have known stuff about Buffy so maybe that helps, and with a mole and some government backing. Maybe the government don't know the first is involved or something and think its just Caleb? I have no idea, I'm just not sure I can get onboard with it being Riley unless Sam was killed by a slayer or turned into a slayer and was killed. He was never someone I'd imagine who'd want Buffy dead, I think he wanted to do good in the world and love her.

[Michael]

Twilight had an opportunity to kill Buffy but did not do so. To me this means either :-

a) he does not want to kill her, or

b) he is an idiot .

And I don't think he is an idiot. I can see that this conclusion would make Riley a strong candidate. My impression is that Twilight's power has a technological rather than a supernatural base. I'll put my neck out and say that Willow and Buffy will find his power source and deal with the matter.

Bear in mind that there is also supposed to be a traitor who deals a fearful blow to Buffy behind her back. I have no idea who that could be.

[bishopcruz]

Um Icarus is very dead. Squished, remember?

I still think Angel or Angelus for some wird reason. But that's just me.

[Matt]

Um Icarus is very dead. Squished, remember?

I still think Angel or Angelus for some wird reason. But that's just me.

I meant before that, before Fray even became the slayer, but I don't think that would work anyway because Buffy would've been transported to the future where Icarus is dead, so never mind. It was just a wacky theory.

[Charles]

Bumping this up to throw another name out there that I don't recall being considered.


Robin Wood.

he's got motivation similiar to Xander in that being a Slayer robbed him of his mother. Plus his desires to kill any and all magical or demonic creatures and make the world 'safe' for normal people would be a logical extension of his mindset shown in Lies My Parents Told Me.

Then you have not only Buffy's own conduct towards him but also the fact that he had direct physical contact (as much as anyone can) with the First.

Robin would have all the pluses of revealing a 'scooby' as the big villian without having to deal with the Scooby fallout since no one really likes or cares for him that much.

[bishopcruz]

Problem with that one is Twilight isn't black. We've seen the lower part of his face, so it isn't Robin.

[Charles]

Problem with that one is Twilight isn't black. We've seen the lower part of his face, so it isn't Robin.

Never heard of stage make-up?

[Maggie]

The move with the scythe between the legs, was used on Caleb, but it doesn't have to be the first time Buffy has done that. It works great as a misdirect because Joss must have known everyone would immediately think of Caleb, but though we haven't seen it, it doesn't mean Buffy hasn't used that move plenty of times.

Buffy and Angel patrolled regularly together, Buffy and Spike patrolled together a number of times as well, as did Riley. So all three of her exes could have seen her use that move on demons a bunch of times. Giles could have also trained her in that move as well, so it still works in that way as well.

It's also very possible that the "cutting of the balls" could be symbolism for how Riley felt Buffy treat him throughout their relationship. I don't believe he had a problem with strong women at all as some others do, but he did feel did give up everything for his "one true love." Graham mocked him for being "the missions boyfriend." In fact, Spike was accused of being whipped, and most certainly was, in season 7 as well. So it's very possible the "I know that move" could be a reference to the personal effects Buffy has had on the men she's had relationships with, and not necessarily the specific move of cutting them with the scythe.

Two great points. (And I'm surprised you offer the second one -- but I think it's pretty bang on.)

I've always thought it was Riley. King offers more evidence on it. And now I'm wondering if Riley wasn't Buffy's date in NYC. (Though as an anti-Riley kind of a gal, I'd be sad to think Buffy would want to get all dressed up for Riley. But, alas, I think Buffy *would* get dressed up for Riley. So there you go.)

[Matt]

I just went back and looked through A Beautiful Sunset to check out the move you guys were talking about and from that it would seem like Twilight would be Caleb, that and some of the stuff he says is kind of Caleb-ish like the thing just before he itches his neck.

But the other stuff seems kind of personal, like he's known Buffy on a level that nobody else would have apart from anybody that's been close to her and knows she's the slayer, so that leaves Angel, Spike or Riley really, unless it's somebody she dated buy is keeping to the shadows, ie Parker or Owen, but I think that'd be pointless, it wouldn't really get the shock-factor when Twilight's finally unveiled.

[vampmogs]

Two great points. (And I'm surprised you offer the second one -- but I think it's pretty bang on.)

I've always thought it was Riley. King offers more evidence on it. And now I'm wondering if Riley wasn't Buffy's date in NYC. (Though as an anti-Riley kind of a gal, I'd be sad to think Buffy would want to get all dressed up for Riley. But, alas, I think Buffy *would* get dressed up for Riley. So there you go.)

Yeah I've heard that speculation going around a fair bit? I hadn't thought about it but it would be very interesting if Buffy was getting all dressed up for a meeting with Riley. And I agree I could see Buffy getting dressed up for Riley. I think a part of it because she still has feelings for the guy, another part because last time he saw her "blinding orange" wasn't her best colour and she had that "unappealing burger smell." Gals come along way since then.

Or what if it is the Immortal! :err:

The whole thing has me very, very curious.

[Charles]

Maybe it's Jack O'Toole's grandfather?

[Sacred Knight]

Has it ever been toyed with that Twilight might be Hank Summers? I think that would totally come out of left field and put a real Star Wars spin on season 8. The heroine vs the villainous father. Of course I don't think her father ever saw Buffy fight to learn her moves, but I dunno, would be interesting.

[Charles]

Has it ever been toyed with that Twilight might be Hank Summers? I think that would totally come out of left field and put a real Star Wars spin on season 8. The heroine vs the villainous father. Of course I don't think her father ever saw Buffy fight to learn her moves, but I dunno, would be interesting.

I've thought about that but what would really be the point though? We saw Hank, what twice in the series?

I think Twilight maybe more a symbol/mantle rather than the person underneath it. That's what I'm leaning towards right now.

[Sacred Knight]

Well I'd imagine, despite her not having much a relationship with her father, that a reveal like that would really affect her. I mean its one thing to not be close to your father, its another to find out he's a murderous supervillain who considers you his enemy. It would definitely be an ultimate betrayal. The fact we as fans though have little invested in the character could make it a disappointing reveal to some, but I think if the magnitude of the betrayal from Buffy's point of view was written well, it could make us feel something.

Definitely just idle speculation, though. I still think the evidence is pretty solid for Riley, but no thing is a sure thing till we see it.

[ThePoet's<3]

***...Riley...Riley...Riley...***

Still voting Riley as Twilight. But I don't think that's who she was meeting in NYC. That would put him two places at once - unless he also met with Warren and Amy in NYC. I mean we don't have a direct time line of events but something tells me he wasn't anywhere near NYC.

I think Buffy met a Twilight employee who may be pretending to be both benefactor and enemy. Which - golly - sounds a little like the Doctor scenario in AYW... ***whistles innocently...***


ETA: Okay - I just thought about that... What if she did meet Riley? Which would mean that Riley is not Twilight. (damn!) But if I follow my AYW theory... NO. He could still be Twilight. But where did he meet Warren and Amy? I would think he would be in Scotland where the missile was located.

It still means Riley is a snake.

[Charles]

Riley being Twilight wouldn't necessarily rule him out being the person Buffy was going to meet despite the timing involved. Recall that Warren amongst other things is a techno wiz and his skills along with Amy's could very easily augument their project to the point where Riley as Twilight is meeting with them in New York state and at the same time as himself meeting with Buffy in New York City.

[TheChosen]

I know this is very random but what if it was Pike? He hated buffy for leaving him because she was the slayer. Because he could never live up to her expectations. And that would affect buffy personally becuase Pike really was her first love, but she knew things couldn't be. I doubt this would happen and it's completely randomn but just wanted to throw something else out there. But so far, I am going with Twilight as Riley. It makes the most sense but no one knows....only time shall tell....

[Matt]

I agree with was was said about Hank because it would be a twist and would kind of make you think "So you've been watching your daughter all this time?" It would also explain why he never visited or anything if he was against the whole slayer thing.

I know this is very random but what if it was Pike? He hated buffy for leaving him because she was the slayer. Because he could never live up to her expectations. And that would affect buffy personally becuase Pike really was her first love, but she knew things couldn't be. I doubt this would happen and it's completely randomn but just wanted to throw something else out there. But so far, I am going with Twilight as Riley. It makes the most sense but no one knows....only time shall tell....

I highly doubt that it'll be Pike, I mean, he wasn't ever mentioned in the series that I can recall and the only way he ever came close to meet the Scoobies or be mentioned to them after the movie was in a book or two and some comics, I just can't see Joss doing that, especially if you've never seen the movie you'll be like "Who the hell?" I suppose it's possible, I mean, anything is, right? But it just doesn't seem likely, to me, Pike's moved on and is fighting demons somewhere as a freelance, either that or he's dead or loved up somewhere. I suppose he could come back for an issue, but I don't think he would work as the face of the big bad, it'd be kind of anti-climatic, for me at least.

[Nina]

Methos at TWOP posted a theory that Adam could be Twilight, he has the military thing and I've not read issue 16 yet, but it seems that Warren called Twilight 'copperhead'.

I won't cheer to see another dead character return but it's fine by me if that means that not one of the good guys is Twilight. I've still hugh trouble with the idea that there is one good guy who wants to kill all the supernatural creatures and people. That's genocide, which is something unforgivable.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Methos at TWOP posted a theory that Adam could be Twilight, he has the military thing and I've not read issue 16 yet, but it seems that Warren called Twilight 'copperhead'.

I won't cheer to see another dead character return but it's fine by me if that means that not one of the good guys is Twilight. I've still hugh trouble with the idea that there is one good guy who wants to kill all the supernatural creatures and people. That's genocide, which is something unforgivable.

I think the copperhead thing is referring to his mask, which looks kinda metallic. Not sure though. He could be ginger though?

[-beardo-]

I would like it if Twilight was a charcter we have never seen in the show before.
I know we have had the bit where he says he knows about a certina move that Buffy used on caleb but could it be possible that Twilight has been watching Buffy over a period of time.
Im not a fan of Riley and i dont wnat him apperaing and i dont like Caleb either. It woul be cool if Twilight was a vampire hence the reason he is covered up.
I would love it to be angel, and we could find out his motivations in After The Fall. I suppose you could set After The Fall before Season Eight. It is isn't it?
Maybe it could be a villian we have only seen in one episode. I would also like Twilight to be Giles.

I dont know.

[Boltmaiden]

I would love it to be angel, and we could find out his motivations in After The Fall. I suppose you could set After The Fall before Season Eight. It is isn't it?

I am just the opposite, I don't think I would hate anything more than that. It would undermine everything Angel is and all that he has accomplished. As for timing of season 8 and After the Fall...i'm not sure the timeframe has been determined, but I may be wrong.

I am right in the middle of watching season 4 of Buffy right now and I have to say I agree that there seems to be things that now could be seen as foreshadowing as other have posted. I mean for me personally if Riley had something dark enough happen to him to make him twisted, like an opposite reaction of what happened to Faith in the always stable good guy becomes an evil mastermind sorta way vs. the unstable bad girl finds redemption type of way I would find it both fascinating and heartbreaking. I am one of the few that liked Riley and to see him end up being this villain would throw me for a loop but in a good way because there is a foundation which would not make it completely out there.

He was always very intelligent and being a psych major would add to the games he is playing to bring confusion to Buffy and the gang. And with his knowledge of the military....anyway this has already been said; I just think that it would make sense, be interesting and probably the choice I personally like best. Plus I have to say it makes season 4 even more fun wondering if I should be looking for more clues:lol:

[Thomas]

I have a question, when and where did the "we already know Twilight" thing pop up? I think I remember reading the quote, but it seems that quote kind of disappeared... So, now that we're all saying people already introduced- where's the source again?

I just wan't to make sure it's actually true and not something that's become twisted amongst the forums and blogs.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I have a question, when and where did the "we already know Twilight" thing pop up? I think I remember reading the quote, but it seems that quote kind of disappeared... So, now that we're all saying people already introduced- where's the source again?

I just wan't to make sure it's actually true and not something that's become twisted amongst the forums and blogs.

I think - though I'm not sure - it's just internet speculation, rather than something one of the writers has said. Hope so, cos still praying for Twilight being a new character. But maybe someone else knows of a writer quote? Bueller...anyone?

[Vampire in Rug]

I'd hate it if Twilight were a new character. Unless he's someone we already know, or are going to meet -why would he always wear a mask. Also, we've been teased with dialoge that implies he's familar with how Buffy operates on an intimate level. He's either been doing a lot of homework or he knows how Buffy operates firsthand.

If Twilight is a new character, then why all the mystery? The big reveal would be bound to disapoint.

My guesses are Riley, Graham or Future!Xander.

If I had to place bets, I'd go with Graham. He's a guy with military connections who doesn't like the supurnatural. Also, he's a guy without any real fanbase, so turning him evil isn't too great a stretch of the imagination.

[kassyopeia]

My speculations about his identity have mainly been based on trying to match his style of speech to one of the known characters. Needless to say, I haven't come up with anything conclusive, but since this hasn't really been discussed yet in this thread, I might as well mention it. Maybe it'll start someone else thinking...

These are his naked lines from "Beautiful Sunset":

The Chosen One. Always in pain… And always complaining. Just like a girl.

I know that move, Slayer. Let me show you some of mine.

Understand this, girl. You cannot fight me.

I’d expect no less. But I watched you and the witch; it seemed that you didn’t like flying.

Very well, then… Let’s ride.

Do you know that I actually came here to talk? But there you were… going on about how hard it is for you, and, well… I just hate to see you cry.

Well, that’s the issue, isn’t it? One Slayer was all right, but *all* these girls… the world can’t contain them. And they will suffer for that. I’ll not kill you now. My first gift is my last. I know that you meant well. But you have brought about disaster. And it falls to me to avert it. Have you made a difference? Have your Slayers helped change anything in this world? Have they helped you?That’s been done. To little effect. The trick is to strip her of her greatest armor… her moral certainty. However hapless she may be about her personal life, this girl has always firmly believed she was on the side of right. And if there’s one thing I’ve learned about the Slayer…

Sorry. Itchy neck. Where was I?

The first three lines sound like one hundred percent Caleb to me, even if we completely ignore the "move" for the moment. "Girls are whiny", "you cannot fight me", addressing her as "girl" and "slayer", Caleb said the exact same things in season 7.

So, obviously, it's not Caleb. Taking the henchman from the previous season and elevating him to Big Bad, and giving him a mask but dropping such obvious clues right away would just be sad.

I can't find any obvious stylistic clues in the rest of his conversation with Buffy. The second part I find more interesting: His little speech is, well, not exactly stilted, but not exactly colloquial either. "Hapless" in particular stands out. Searching the Buffy scripts (bear with me), I get only five hits. And none of them come from dialog, they're in each case part of stage instructions. Interestingly, four of the five occurances are in season finales: "Graduation Day", "Restless" and "Chosen". Probably a coincidence, but an excellent starting point for a conspiracy theory nonetheless. :)
What probably isn't a coincidence is that those are all written by Joss Whedon, as is "Beautiful Sunset". Sadly, this doesn't get us anywhere but just suggests that he likes the word.

Anyway, the speech ends with the "Itchy neck" comment, which completely breaks the mood. To me, this narrows the list of possible suspects somewhat, at last, because it's an expression of a certain irreverence and delight in being a "supervillain" that works better for some characters than others. I don't really see Riley or some version of Adam behaving like that, for instance.

Well, that's as far as I got, pretty much. *shrug*

[Skippcomet]

If I had to place bets, I'd go with Graham. He's a guy with military connections who doesn't like the supurnatural. Also, he's a guy without any real fanbase, so turning him evil isn't too great a stretch of the imagination.

Problem with that is, because he doesn't have a fanbase, nobody would care if he were Twilight. Joss likes his pain and angsty drama...and he doesn't get that by making Twilight somebody essentially nobody gives a damn about.

[Vampire in Rug]

Still, having Twilight be someone familiar, yet not cared about ie. Graham would be a safe way to play it, even if slightly uninteresting. It would certainly be better than ruining an established character (ie. Riley) for the sake of drama. I watched "New Moon Rising" the other day, and if Twilight turns out to be Riley, that would pretty much crap all over everything his character learnt and went through.




....Unless Riley is now a vampire... which would make perfect sense in his twisted yet noble motives... but I'd say that's already been done by IDW with Gunn.

[Moscow Watcher]

So, obviously, it's not Caleb. Taking the henchman from the previous season and elevating him to Big Bad, and giving him a mask but dropping such obvious clues right away would just be sad.


After cinnamon buns and cinnamon lipstick I stick to the theory that the most obvious clue is the right one. Besides, in s7 Joss only started to toy with Caleb. Maybe he had some ideas about him but no screentime to develop them.

[Curiouswolf]

I ain't saying who Twilight is though it's obvious when you go through the clues:eviltail:.

I will say that I think that Renee will turn out to be a deceased agent of Twilight who fell in love with Xander in the end. She's not the "man inside" nor the traitor but I do think she will be missed by Twilight's organization as well as by the Xan-man, hooked-up or not.

[The_Watchman]

I have three different ideas of who Twilight is:

Xander

Riley

Oz.

[Moscow Watcher]

Well, to be fair, issue 11 has at least one Riley-is-the-Twilight-loaded reference (Buffy recalls her dream in Restless where Riley calls her a killer). But Caleb reference is more straightforward: in the flashback he is pictured right in the scene where Buffy did "that move" - the one that Twilight knows. *shrugs*

[kassyopeia]

Xander
That doesn't seem reasonable to me. Xander's time between seasons 7 and 8 seems to be quite well accounted for, so when would he have "turned" and done all the work it would have taken to gain superpowers and set up a conspiracy? There might also be "being in two places at once" problems with it being Xander, I'm not sure.
Oz
But... Oz is A Tiny Person. Speaking of which, could it be Flutie or Snyder? :)

[Nina]

It would be cool if it was Gunn, at least that's what I think.

He is evil, twisted, smart, no slayer fan, maybe trying to get Angel by killing Buffy, has the inside info and he isn't dead (yet).

I know that it isn't him .... but it would be great.

[Charles]

Xander still has a number of unexplained things that could be used to reconfigure him or a version of him into Twilight. Namely the point blank magical blast he took from Willow and what Caleb's words were supposed to mean before getting his eye gouged out.

[MaverickKing]

It has to be either Riley or Caleb. If it's not one of those, I'll eat my own hat. The big one.

[Koos]

Xander still has a number of unexplained things that could be used to reconfigure him or a version of him into Twilight. Namely the point blank magical blast he took from Willow and what Caleb's words were supposed to mean before getting his eye gouged out.

That was earthly green magic that willow shot him at. There's nothing unexplainable at it. Not to mention that Willow never wanted to kill Xander. Tha't was the whole point of the scene.

[Charles]

That was earthly green magic that willow shot him at. There's nothing unexplainable at it. Not to mention that Willow never wanted to kill Xander. Tha't was the whole point of the scene.

If you say so. I think the fact that she was for all intents and purposes powering up the statue to burn the planet, suggests that energy wasn't quite as harmless as been accepted.

[Koos]

If you say so. I think the fact that she was for all intents and purposes powering up the statue to burn the planet, suggests that energy wasn't quite as harmless as been accepted.

She drained the power out of Earth. That's green magic. Which can be used healing, for example. So, somehow the statue was the mechanism that changed the nature of the power and focusses it so that it could destroy earth.

[kassyopeia]

So, somehow the statue was the mechanism that changed the nature of the power and focusses it so that it could destroy earth.
The way I understood it, Willow is simply "drain[ing] the planet's life force". The destruction is a direct result of the draining, not of something the statue is doing. Like, say, a vampire kills by draining a human. The fact that the vampire draws power from the blood is irrelevant, the human simply dies because they need the blood themselves.
Your main point still stands, there is no reason to assume that the green energy should hurt Xander in any way. If anything, it should juice him.

[Charles]

She drained the power out of Earth. That's green magic. Which can be used healing, for example. So, somehow the statue was the mechanism that changed the nature of the power and focusses it so that it could destroy earth.

If it's just 'green' energy, the amount she was channeling into the statue should have some sort of side effect on him. Even the most healthy things in the world can be very bad for you if you take too much of them at one time.

[KingofCretins]

We know next to nothing about the mechanics of what Willow was actually *doing* to form theories about that energy, certainly no where near enough to be so certain that it was harmful to start inferring some sort of superpowers on Xander.

Perhaps the energy in question only takes on any harmful properties once it reached the temple statue? My own best guess is that Willow was doing the actual damage with her own power, but was sourcing it through the she-demon, and that energy represented something akin to a "ground wire" in the Willow machine. Xander stepped in front of that energy, harmless on its own, and broke the circuit that was powering the dangerous energy, which was going from Willow into the ground.

Plus, if we were talking about some kind of worthwhile invulnerability on Xander's part... wouldn't he have mentioned it? Or Willow? Either in the scene or later on? She was certainly impressed with the counterspell in the Magic Box. And, we saw her other, directly offensive powers work on Xander (the lightning bolts, the TK scratches). I don't think he was doing anything more than the mystical equivalent of standing on a garden hose. His bravery wasn't in stepping in front of that beam, but facing the repurcussions from Willow for challenging her.

[Charles]

Or that the writers are lazy and don't want to address that issue because Xander isn't an interesting character.

[KingofCretins]

No, he's a profoundly interesting character who doesn't have any superpowers nor has ever given us reason to really suspect he does. And really, why is it relevant? We already know he's not Twilight unless the writing is flat out bad -- they've already shown the characters in different places at the same time three times so far.

I'm still leaning Riley, but Hank Summers is starting to creep up based on the Joss quote about Buffy/Satsu, since he so randomly mentioned Buffy's relationship with her dad as a factor in her relationship issues. Sounds like the Buffy/Hank dynamic has been on his mind.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

So, still hoping it's a new character (is anyone else, or is this my solo wish? I feel so alone.). But...heh, just had a thought. The Scooby Gang perhaps didn't get its name for nothing... and Twilight turns out to be the janitor at the fairground (or possibly castle) who would've got away with it if it wasn't for those pesky kids :D

[Koos]

I'm still leaning Riley, but Hank Summers is starting to creep up based on the Joss quote about Buffy/Satsu, since he so randomly mentioned Buffy's relationship with her dad as a factor in her relationship issues. Sounds like the Buffy/Hank dynamic has been on his mind.

I consider this as a positive direction to the Buffy/Xander relationship, KoC. Let me explain. I always thought that Buffy wouldn't want a man who reminds her of her father. Xander has some character traits that are comparable to her father. He's human ;). He's pretty self-rightious and to me Hank is that too. I haven't really thought this out. But I think there's a comparison to between the marriage of Hank and Joyce and Xander's possible future marriage with Anya in Hell's Bell.

Of course Xander is not Hank, but I can see Buffy's fear to date any guy who appears like her father. Hank is definitely giving a negative view on men on the part where he abandonned his daughters. If Joss actually brings up this topic than I can see it as positive to the Buffy/Xander relationship as she sees different aspects of Xander and that she accepting him as he is and differently for her father. Considering that she already started to see Xander differently in S8, it might not be a far fetched theory.

[Charles]

No, he's a profoundly interesting character who doesn't have any superpowers nor has ever given us reason to really suspect he does. And really, why is it relevant? We already know he's not Twilight unless the writing is flat out bad -- they've already shown the characters in different places at the same time three times so far.

I'm still leaning Riley, but Hank Summers is starting to creep up based on the Joss quote about Buffy/Satsu, since he so randomly mentioned Buffy's relationship with her dad as a factor in her relationship issues. Sounds like the Buffy/Hank dynamic has been on his mind.

Well the writing is flat out bad, it's Joss, remember?

He's never let logic get in the way of a 'cool idea' see Warren's return.

Xander as the Big Bad, not necessarily Twilight, makes the most sense going by Joss's previous comments about going where the most pain and drama are. Hank would be interesting but ultimately nobody really cares about him one way or the other. It would be Caleb all over again, a fairly cool character but not one that's especially memorable or meaningful in any long term.

[dinamo]

Does anyone think that Twilight will be a sort of Doctor Doom type figure? That he'll be more about power from technological means, rather than anything else. I know Doom can do magic but the main bulk of his powers is his brains and his suits and everything he creates with his tech. Twilight if he wants to end magic could either be a man who hates magic and uses tech to make himself more than he is. Or he could be someone who wants to end magic but is willing to use magic to do that. Ending magic using magic would be a kick in the face to those who oppose him and very ironic.

[Charles]

Does anyone think that Twilight will be a sort of Doctor Doom type figure? That he'll be more about power from technological means, rather than anything else. I know Doom can do magic but the main bulk of his powers is his brains and his suits and everything he creates with his tech. Twilight if he wants to end magic could either be a man who hates magic and uses tech to make himself more than he is. Or he could be someone who wants to end magic but is willing to use magic to do that. Ending magic using magic would be a kick in the face to those who oppose him and very ironic.

well Doom's character has been through the wringer though. He's the second smartest person in the Marvel universe behind Reed Richards. He's the runner up to the Soceror Supreme title (or he was last time I checked). He's got MAJOR mother issues and he has at least one child by his #1 enemy's wife (Sue Richards).

I really don't want to even think Joss might try to do with a character like that because there's a really good chanceh he'll screw it up.

[dinamo]

Lol, well I don't disagree with any of that Charles. I suppose I was just meaning more in the sense of having a cunning villian who gets more done with his brains than raw power. Not quite a Doctor Doom figure exactly but something in that vain. I'd prefer Twilight to be a regular person who is more lethal because he's astonishingly clever and one step ahead of everyone else, and isn't afraid to go after what he wants by whatever means needed, not because he's got lots of physical power behind his punch.

[Charles]

Lol, well I don't disagree with any of that Charles. I suppose I was just meaning more in the sense of having a cunning villian who gets more done with his brains than raw power. Not quite a Doctor Doom figure exactly but something in that vain. I'd prefer Twilight to be a regular person who is more lethal because he's astonishingly clever and one step ahead of everyone else, and isn't afraid to go after what he wants by whatever means needed, not because he's got lots of physical power behind his punch.

I would agree except that's not Joss's MO. Joss doesn't really like normal people too much. Look at Gunn who went from super cool purely human street fighter relying on his wits and skills to mystic surgery enhanced lawyer to what he is now.

The closet we've come to Doom I believe is Warren and that's rather despressing when you think about it.

[RuFio]

I never even really considered Hank Summers to be Twilight. Now that I have it does have potential to be cool and interesting, but I'm not sure I'd like it as much as Riley. Bad Riley would be so hot and it makes sense so far. He has the black & white moral outlook on the world & he is working with/associated with the military.

The only clue so far that has led me to consider Caleb was when Buffy tried to uppercut him with the scythe and he said that he knew that move well (from when she killed him in 'Chosen'). Caleb could be wearing a mask because his face still looks like it's split in two!

But in the end, with twilight wanting to end magic, I'm really convinced it will be Riley. I can't wait to find out who it is though! The suspense/anticipation for the next issue is sometimes painfully long, but it's buffy anxiety so it's all good.:2party:

[Slayer+]

I'm guessing Twilight is Giles.

Twilight knows how Buffy thinks. He knows her strengths and weaknesses. Only Giles and Willow knows Buffy that well. We've already been given one surprising revelation about Willow, I doubt she'll have another. Giles and Buffy had some sort of fallout recently and we haven't been given the chance to find out the reason behind it. What I believe happened is that Giles expressed regret of Buffy's decision. He believes that she might have made a mistake turning all the girls into Slayers. Though he actively helps her, he's made it clear that he thinks she did something terribly wrong. Buffy allows him to help her only because her resources and allies are running low but their communication is minimal.

Look at how Giles trains his Slayers: he pits them against each other and they wear masks. Reads his dialogue: it doesn't sound too encouraging. He doesn't seem particularly happy. His lesson to the Slayers was that they weren't fighting with each other but against each other. Twilight asks Buffy if the Slayers have helped her -- essentially questioning whether they were working for her (literally) or against her (meaning: are they helping or just not making things easier?)

Giles 'knows that move' because Buffy told him. She probably demonstrated it in her joy of defeating Caleb. Notice the outfit he wears during the last issue of 'No Future For You'.

Me thinks its Giles.

[RuFio]

I'm guessing Twilight is Giles.

Twilight knows how Buffy thinks. He knows her strengths and weaknesses. Only Giles and Willow knows Buffy that well. We've already been given one surprising revelation about Willow, I doubt she'll have another. Giles and Buffy had some sort of fallout recently and we haven't been given the chance to find out the reason behind it. What I believe happened is that Giles expressed regret of Buffy's decision. He believes that she might have made a mistake turning all the girls into Slayers. Though he actively helps her, he's made it clear that he thinks she did something terribly wrong. Buffy allows him to help her only because her resources and allies are running low but their communication is minimal.

Look at how Giles trains his Slayers: he pits them against each other and they wear masks. Reads his dialogue: it doesn't sound too encouraging. He doesn't seem particularly happy. His lesson to the Slayers was that they weren't fighting with each other but against each other. Twilight asks Buffy if the Slayers have helped her -- essentially questioning whether they were working for her (literally) or against her (meaning: are they helping or just not making things easier?)

Giles 'knows that move' because Buffy told him. She probably demonstrated it in her joy of defeating Caleb. Notice the outfit he wears during the last issue of 'No Future For You'.

Me thinks its Giles.


omg. and giles would've been all for shooting ethan rayne in the head!!
it kind of sucks that it seems like one by one the core scoobies are turning evil or against buffy. I can imagine giles not being happy with the result of the slayer spell in chosen, but I CANT imagine him actively attacking her-no matter how bad they've fallen out. :cutecry:
now riley, I think I can deal with being against buffy.

[Slayer+]

omg. and giles would've been all for shooting ethan rayne in the head!!
it kind of sucks that it seems like one by one the core scoobies are turning evil or against buffy. I can imagine giles not being happy with the result of the slayer spell in chosen, but I CANT imagine him actively attacking her-no matter how bad they've fallen out. :cutecry:
now riley, I think I can deal with being against buffy.

You bring up a good point: why WAS Ethan at the base? Could Giles have brought him there? I don't think Giles killed him but he would have recruited him.

And I know it's sad that Giles might be Twilight but realize that it doesn't matter whether or not you can deal with it. It's all up to Joss. Besides: Twilight didn't want to hit Buffy that time, he just came to talk. ;) Buffy just started to whine and he couldn't help himself! :roll:

[kassyopeia]

His lesson to the Slayers was that they weren't fighting with each other but against each other.
Same as Buffy's lesson, though.
why WAS Ethan at the base?
"A New Man":

RILEY (cont'd)
(to Buffy)
They'll take Mr. Rayne to a secret
detention facility in the Nevada
desert. I'm sure he'll be rehabilitated
in no time.

That's one of the few things for which we don't strictly need further backstory.

Also, I'm not sure how much sense the "No Future For You" storyline makes with Giles as Twilight. It could be him, but I'm rather sceptical. There is more discussion of Giles as Twilight further up in this thread, in case you haven't read it yet. :)

[Slayer+]

Also, I'm not sure how much sense the "No Future For You" storyline makes with Giles as Twilight. It could be him, but I'm rather sceptical. There is more discussion of Giles as Twilight further up in this thread, in case you haven't read it yet. :)

I read 'em. None of them really did anything to squash my theory that Twilight is Giles. The Riley Theories were pretty darn good though. He's my number two choice. I just feel Twilight knows more about Buffy than Riley ever could. He only dated her for a year and a half. Buffy and Riley were close but not that close -- that's why their relationship went sour. She was never open and honest with him. She never invited him into that much of her life. Giles on the other hand... he's practically her dad.

Another thing I realized about Giles is that the whole Twilight tattoo thing is just like what happened during season 2 when the demon from his past came to kill him and his friends. Didn't they all share the same tattoo? How exactly do the events of No Future For You refute my theory?

[kassyopeia]

None of them really did anything to squash my theory that Twilight is Giles.
On the contrary, they contain additional support for the theory, that's why I pointed them out. :)
How exactly do the events of No Future For You refute my theory?
"Refute" is certainly not the word I'd use.
It was about manipulating our enemies into waging this ugly war for us, a tactic crucial for bringing the age of magic to a close. By pitting Watcher against warlock and Slayer against Slayer, we have pushed even the ‘victors’ to remove themselves from the chessboard.
What would be the point of the whole affair if Giles is Twilight? The only thing I can come up with is that it was a big show put on solely for Faith's benefit... seems pretty far-fetched.

[Slayer+]

On the contrary, they contain additional support for the theory, that's why I pointed them out. :)

"Refute" is certainly not the word I'd use.

What would be the point of the whole affair if Giles is Twilight? The only thing I can come up with is that it was a big show put on solely for Faith's benefit... seems pretty far-fetched.

Kay. Right. Thanks.

[Matt]

One quick question, how do we know Twilight is actually a guy?

I mean, as far as I'm aware, it's never been established what Twilight's gender is, they just assume it's a guy because of his shape (could be armour?) and voice (some kind of voice-altering device?) I mean, if it was somebody Buffy knew like Riley, Xander or even Caleb surely she'd recognise their voice? Which supports my theory that there must be some kind of voice-alteration involved.

I'm not saying it is a woman, I'm just saying that if it isn't a woman then it must either be a new character or somebody using a voice changer. Think the guy in Scream.

[kassyopeia]

One quick question, how do we know Twilight is actually a guy?
I thought about that too, but it quickly leads to realizing that we don't know anything, in the end. It could be a demon using a glamour, or it could be a robot, or a bunch of other things.
The only good reason to suspect that it's really a man in a mask is, well, that he's wearing a mask. If there was some kind of augmentation involved, you'd think he/she/they would either use an unkown face, if they don't want Buffy to recognize them, or a known face, if they do want Buffy to recognize them. Either way, no mask.

[Slayer+]

I'm rereading Anywhere But Here -- there's a part where Buffy and Willow are taken into a chamber by the demon Sephirilian where Buffy sees herself crying on the ground, covered in wounds. When Buffy asks what happened Robin tells her, "Betrayal. The closest, the most unexpected." In the chamber is a cracked red egg floating above a obsidian pillar.

Could this be where Twilight reveals himself to Buffy? If he is someone Buffy knows and loves it would be seen as a betrayal from someone close and unexpected. But what does the egg mean? What is the egg?

[kassyopeia]

Could this be where Twilight reveals himself to Buffy? If he is someone Buffy knows and loves it would be seen as a betrayal from someone close and unexpected. But what does the egg mean? What is the egg?
A forum search for "red egg" doesn't turn up anything but a few mentions of its existence, and a single post containing a theory as to its significance.

To me, it seems that the most obvious interpretation of a broken egg is that something hatched from it. So, my current best guess would be along the lines of Buffy wanting to stop the hatching, and the betrayer stopping her from stopping it. It could be the other way 'round, but she seems to have lost the confrontation.

[Roses-r-Red]

A forum search for "red egg" doesn't turn up anything but a few mentions of its existence, and a single post containing a theory as to its significance.

To me, it seems that the most obvious interpretation of a broken egg is that something hatched from it. So, my current best guess would be along the lines of Buffy wanting to stop the hatching, and the betrayer stopping her from stopping it. It could be the other way 'round, but she seems to have lost the confrontation.

Hi, Although I've been a fan of Buffy and Angel for a long time, I'm new to the internet discussions. I hope you don't mind me popping in. It seems most of you are a close knit bunch and I don't want to crash the party but I couldn't help being intrigued by this post. I looked up info on the red egg as a symbol and all of it leads to a birth of some kind. Specifically, the red egg in Chinese tradition:

The egg is regarded throughout the world - and in many varied cultures - as a symbol of fertility - the essence of creation, new life, new ideas.
In ancient China a red egg and ginger party was held to celebrate the birth of a child. It is a tradition that is still practiced in contemporary Chinese society; family and friends are presented with red eggs - symbolic of the luck and prosperity awaiting the new life.

I'm starting to think Buffy will be pregnant by the end of this Season or find out about a future pregnancy from Fray/Watcher's diaries. Her child as her enemy would be the worst betrayal and pretty heart-breaking. Kinda like when Conner went against Angel.

[kassyopeia]

I hope you don't mind me popping in. It seems most of you are a close knit bunch and I don't want to crash the party but I couldn't help being intrigued by this post.
Of course not, I'm new here too and this is a very welcoming forum. :)
I'm starting to think Buffy will be pregnant by the end of this Season or find out about a future pregnancy from Fray/Watcher's diaries. Her child as her enemy would be the worst betrayal and pretty heart-breaking.
So, do you mean to say that the red egg in the vision is a metaphor for Buffy's pregnancy? Intriguing, but as far as we know the other visions showed real events, not symbolic ones, so I'd tend to think that the red egg is an actual red egg, and I don't see how Buffy could lay an egg, or Buffy's offspring hatch from one.
Even so, your post makes me think of an interpretation just as valid as the one I mentioned above - Buffy wanted to protect the hatchling, but the betrayer abducted it. But that would be so similar to the Angel/Wesley/Holtz/Connor storyline in "Angel" that I doubt the writers would do that.

[Roses-r-Red]

Of course not, I'm new here too and this is a very welcoming forum. :)

So, do you mean to say that the red egg in the vision is a metaphor for Buffy's pregnancy? Intriguing, but as far as we know the other visions showed real events, not symbolic ones, so I'd tend to think that the red egg is an actual red egg, and I don't see how Buffy could lay an egg, or Buffy's offspring hatch from one.
Even so, your post makes me think of an interpretation just as valid as the one I mentioned above - Buffy wanted to protect the hatchling, but the betrayer abducted it. But that would be so similar to the Angel/Wesley/Holtz/Connor storyline in "Angel" that I doubt the writers would do that.

Thanks for the welcome. Which visions do you mean-The bank robbing/Willow with Snake person vision? I guess you have a point there but the girl, Robin I think, says at the end of their journey that Buffy needs to save the prince which is metaphorical in the sense that Buffy is Queen. I hope that made sense!

Also, about being close to the Angel storyline, I think Buffy and Angel had a lot of similar storylines running through them, so it wouldn't be a surprise to me. I actually like that the shows have that connection after all they're in the same universe so it makes sense to me.

[NileQT87]

robin, the guide = robin egg?

what if it is just a symbol of robin? granted, they could have shown an actual robin (the bird) in that case, but a robin egg being a symbol of her is a possibility. though, robin eggs are blue or blue-green.

[kassyopeia]

The egg deserves it's own thread, methinks. I'll quote the discussion so far in the OP.

[Slayer+]

Have we discussed why Twilight keeps his identity from his followers?

[Charles]

Have we discussed why Twilight keeps his identity from his followers?

Standard Villian Protocol?

[ciderdrinker]

I had a thought about this and I don't hink it can be Riley because of this:-

See this picture of Riley in the series
Out Of My Mind (http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r191/ciderdrinker/OutofmyMind565.jpg)

and compare to the image of Twilight's chest in A Beautiful Sunset.

A Beautiful Sunset (http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r191/ciderdrinker/Untitled-1.jpg)

Riley has no hair on his chest and aren't men either hairy chested or not - I mean it's not something that grows as you get older...

I'm voting for Graham Miller - the military connections, the dislike of Buffy, demons and whatnot.

[NileQT87]

that looks like copper armor that isn't smooth. why would it show a hairy chest? if that's supposed to represent a hairy chest, giles and wesley are the only candidates we've met.

[ciderdrinker]

that looks like copper armor that isn't smooth. why would it show a hairy chest? if that's supposed to represent a hairy chest, giles and wesley are the only candidates we've met.

Ok now I feel a bit stupid, cos I relooked at the other panels on that page, and either Twilight is flying around bare-chested or it is a copper plate with the symbol engraved onto it. Still it does look like little hairs rather than uneven metal :s

[hayes62]

Riley has no hair on his chest and aren't men either hairy chested or not - I mean it's not something that grows as you get older...

Men (especially actors) have been known to wax (and then not wax).

The egg looks quite similar to the de-activating jewel the Japanese vampires were going to use and to a necklace Gigi wore. Red's quite a Twilighty colour - setting sun, dried blood on Voll's chest 'tatoo,' the symbol on Roden's book?

[Koos]

Twilight's chin reminds me of Riley though. The thought that it is him is growing on me. Though I still think it is Xander.

My guess and my hope is that Twilight will reveal himself at the end this arc.

[Matt]

Twilight's chin reminds me of Riley though. The thought that it is him is growing on me. Though I still think it is Xander.

My guess and my hope is that Twilight will reveal himself at the end this arc.

I don't think Twilight will reveal himself this early, unless of course, Twilight is only the beginning and, as they say, he has a boss.

But I get the feeling that if Twilight is the big bad for the whole season he won't be revealed until the second to last arc at least.

But, keeping in tradition with the show it goes that Season 1, 3, 5 and 7 have big bads that run the whole season wherein season 2, 4 and 6 have a decoy that you're meant to believe is the big bad (Spike and Dru, The Initiative, the Trio) and it's then revealed or develops into being somebody completely different (Angelus, Adam and Dark!Willow). Also Angel season 4 has this formula with The Beast and then Cordy/Jasmine. It would fit that Twilight isn't the biggest bad of the season, that there's more to come, when you look at it like this.

[Saro49]

I don't think Twilight will reveal himself this early, unless of course, Twilight is only the beginning and, as they say, he has a boss.

But I get the feeling that if Twilight is the big bad for the whole season he won't be revealed until the second to last arc at least.

But, keeping in tradition with the show it goes that Season 1, 3, 5 and 7 have big bads that run the whole season wherein season 2, 4 and 6 have a decoy that you're meant to believe is the big bad (Spike and Dru, The Initiative, the Trio) and it's then revealed or develops into being somebody completely different (Angelus, Adam and Dark!Willow). Also Angel season 4 has this formula with The Beast and then Cordy/Jasmine. It would fit that Twilight isn't the biggest bad of the season, that there's more to come, when you look at it like this.

Very good point. Maybe Riley is Twilight and is answering to a true big bad but will eventually see the era of his ways and come back to Buffy's side. I can seriously imagine Buffy and Twilight eventually joining forces. Also another side note in Season Two of AtS Darla is the main villain for most of it but then the series ends with the Pylea arc (which is really pretty crap and not a big threat at all) but it's worth mentioning. Also in Season Two and Six both the primary and secondary villains come back (Angel/Dru/Spike/The Trio/Willow) so maybe Twilight is a build up for something to come in Season 9.

[XavierZane]

Top 3 Choices for the Identity of Twilight

3. Future!Xander
2. Giles
1. Hank Summers

-Hank has been my number one suspect since issue 11 because of the "my first gift is my last" line, which I read to mean 'my first gift' = the gift of life; 'my last' = letting you live this time.
-Giles moved up after a recent re-read of NFFY. Everything about Giles this season has been awfully fishy.
-Future!Xander is there because...well, because it would be really freaking awesome. :D

[KingofCretins]

I honestly think "Future Xander" would be an incoherent mess. It presupposes, without evidence A) time travel to something other than Fray's time (which looks very much like a one-shot deal pulled off by two Willows), and B) probably means a new time travel conceit, instead of the exchange spell.

By comparison, the only thing we need to assume for Riley is that a Slayer is somehow at fault for Sam getting killed and he's pissed over it. Which is really more likely?

I personally think Giles and Xander are off the hook to be Twilight themselves because neither can be in more than one place at a time, and we have them and Twilight in different places already.

Hank is my #2 other than Riley.

[Matt]

[B]-Hank has been my number one suspect since issue 11 because of the "my first gift is my last" line, which I read to mean 'my first gift' = the gift of life; 'my last' = letting you live this time.


After you said the quote I was thinking Glory or Ben, more Ben than Glory because from what we can tell everything about Twilight is masculine, maybe Ben who has been possessed by Glory?

My basis for this idea, which is completely random and probably has nothing to it, is that the episode when Buffy died the second time was called "The Gift" and maybe Glory sees killing the Slayer as a gift, which would make sense for her/his "last" gift to be death by the same hands, she probably sees herself as being the killer of the Slayer after all.

[XavierZane]

I honestly think "Future Xander" would be an incoherent mess. It presupposes, without evidence A) time travel to something other than Fray's time (which looks very much like a one-shot deal pulled off by two Willows), and B) probably means a new time travel conceit, instead of the exchange spell.

By comparison, the only thing we need to assume for Riley is that a Slayer is somehow at fault for Sam getting killed and he's pissed over it. Which is really more likely?

I personally think Giles and Xander are off the hook to be Twilight themselves because neither can be in more than one place at a time, and we have them and Twilight in different places already.

Hank is my #2 other than Riley.

Future!Xander, like I said, is pretty much only on the list because I'd love to see it. He's a distant third, but, considering that there doesn't seem to be a time limit on how long a person can stay in a different time via the exchange spell, if it did happen there wouldn't necessarily have to be a new time travel conceit.

I never liked Riley for Twilight. The only semi-plausible reason for it would be Sam being killed by a slayer or because of a slayer or whatever, but that's weaksauce in my humble opinion. Not everyone goes into a murderous rage at the death of a loved one.

When are Giles and Twilight shown to be at different places at the same time? I remember the Xander moment, but am blanking on a Giles one.

[Bubblecat]

[B]-Hank has been my number one suspect since issue 11 because of the "my first gift is my last" line, which I read to mean 'my first gift' = the gift of life; 'my last' = letting you live this time.

I like it! It feels right too, if that makes sense.

Riley would be a close second though, although I really don't want it to be as I actually quite like him.

I've also wondered with the ending of magic/demons whether or not Buffy wants it gone by the end of it. Whether it's her way of keeping the world safe in her mind.

[Sacred Knight]

Hank's my number one choice, Riley my number two. Although if we're talking what's more likely, I might switch it. But based on what I want to see, I'm going with Buffy's father.

Future Xander just seems awfully redundant now after the reveal that Willow is alive and villainous in Fray's time.

[XavierZane]

The introduction of FDW was what pushed Future!Xander up my list. Until then I think I had Caleb as my number three. But now that Future versions of Scoobies are running around, I would love to see Future!Xander. It could be written either way - he could be working in accordance with FDW's goals and has been kept alive by her or he could be a completely separate threat or he could be less of a villain than we thought and be working against FDW and the future she's trying to push into existence.

[LRae12]

I just read all of the transcripts for the first time last night, and the first thought that popped into my head was that Twilight was Giles.

But, my thoughts are that it's not current Giles. Or any current character. But someone come back from the future to rid the world of magic because they know what happens in the future (with Willow and such). So if that theory holds water, it could really be ANY character. Perhaps Xander goes off the deep end in the future? But my money is leaning towards future!Giles.

I highly doubt that it is Riley. I just don't see him as the evil!genius type. Do I think that his wife was killed and that's what's going to be a motivator for him returning in s8? Yep. I even think there will be some sexcapades for Riley and Buffy. But I don't think he's Twilight. If he is, then these writers aren't very good, IMO.

Maybe it's Oz on stilts! :roll:


As far as the betrayl goes, I think it's future dark Willow. In fact, I think she may even be responsible for Buffy's eventual death.

[Matt]

I just read all of the transcripts for the first time last night, and the first thought that popped into my head was that Twilight was Giles.

But, my thoughts are that it's not current Giles. Or any current character. But someone come back from the future to rid the world of magic because they know what happens in the future (with Willow and such). So if that theory holds water, it could really be ANY character. Perhaps Xander goes off the deep end in the future? But my money is leaning towards future!Giles.


Just read the transcript so that there wasn't any bias or distraction from the images and I think what you've said makes sense. (I know I've probably said that about every single Twilight possibility, except the obvious Edward Cullen, but anywho.)

I certainly think some of the things that Twilight says sound very Giles-like, but with a Ripper twist to them.

It would certainly explain this line: "But there you were... going on about how hard it is for you, and, well... I Just hate to see you cry." which seems very personal and like Twilight has gotten to know Buffy on a personal level.

One Slayer was all right, but *all* these girls… the world can’t contain them. And they will suffer for that. this line reflects perfectly with what Giles said to Faith in No Future For You when he was talking about the Slayers being more than his one. Also : I know that you meant well. But you have brought about disaster. And it falls to me to avert it. gives the impression of responsibility and as Buffy's watcher Giles would certainly feel some kind of responsibility to clear up her actions.

Also, the part at the end where Twilight seems to know in detail how to make a Slayer feel vulnerable would probably be something Giles has picked up over the years.

The only part I thought would be out of character for Giles would be the The Chosen One. Always in pain… …And always complaining. Just like a girl. because of how misogynistic it sounds, but if you think in context that Giles has been completely overthrown for a race of Slayers who are all girls he would feel a certain degree of loathing for them. That and the "Itchy Neck" thing, but I suppose he might say that.

Also, the end scene of No Future For You part 4 doesn't add up to Twilight being Giles. Why would Twilight (being Giles in some form) want to put himself against Roden and Genevieve, unless it was an experiment.


On a sidenote:

My first gift is my last.

This reflects the whole "Death is your Gift" thing in season 5, my thoughts, maybe it's the First Slayer, somehow managed to teleport to present day with some future technology, or even a Shadow-man. This is jesting from the line, but anything's possibly right?

Also, any chance that Twilight is more than one person sharing the same suit? A la Scream where it turned out to be two of her friends.

[Charles]

I never liked Riley for Twilight. The only semi-plausible reason for it would be Sam being killed by a slayer or because of a slayer or whatever, but that's weaksauce in my humble opinion. Not everyone goes into a murderous rage at the death of a loved one.


Maybe Sam was or is a Slayer though. That would explain why Twilight isn't out to kill all of the slayers but rather negate their powers which is why he didn't level the Castle.


When are Giles and Twilight shown to be at different places at the same time? I remember the Xander moment, but am blanking on a Giles one.

Characters can be in two places at once in comics. Marvel and DC do it regularly. Even Joss has goofed on time=travel on the show (Spike and his magic bike).

[RuFio]

Riley as twilight is my number one guess and wish. Hank might be cool (although maybe not, seeing as we've seen the character in the series only like once).

I don't like the idea at all of a future xander or giles. We already have future willow. Willows time travel fiasco is enough 'back to the future' for me.

[bknick]

I'm still with Andrew for Twilight. And I don't know why, just a suspicion I have. Mostly because of "itchy neck".

If it's a Future-Scoob, I'm gonna be kind of annoyed. I don't know...I kinda just wish Twilight was his own person. Why does every bad guy have to be someone we already know? What happened to the Big Bads? Like The Master, Spike/Dru, The Mayor, Adam, Glory...

Granted, Spike and Dru had a tie to the characters via Angel, but at least they were new. I'm groaning about the reveal of the next Big-Welcome-Back-Mwahaha-Bad.

Thoughts?

[vampmogs]

I wouldn't mind if Twilight was a new person, but I'm not against him being someone we already know. That gives a heightened emotional response from Buffy that a new guy does not have. For instance, his "I hate to see you cry" line, his comments about her moral certainty giving her strength ect. He has a window into Buffy's life, he knows her, and those kind of personal conflicts, like Buffy/Angelus or Buffy/Faith always are the best in my opinion.

I wouldn’t mind seeing it be Hank. I do think it’s oddly suspicious Joss chose to reference him specifically in a quote about the Buffy/Satsu fling. He’s never mentioned her dad before in a discussion about why Buffy feels alone and he chose to here for some reason. It’s almost as if he’s gearing us up, setting the ground work in his interviews as to what he has planned between the two of them and how his absence has effected her, before revealing him in the story.

[bknick]

I wouldn't mind if Twilight was a new person, but I'm not against him being someone we already know. That gives a heightened emotional response from Buffy that a new guy does not have. For instance, his "I hate to see you cry" line, his comments about her moral certainty giving her strength ect. He has a window into Buffy's life, he knows her, and those kind of personal conflicts, like Buffy/Angelus or Buffy/Faith always are the best in my opinion.


I guess I mean that I wish Twilight had simply been introduced as h