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View Full Version : Issue 12- Joss tells retailers to order more copies for huge reveal!



vampmogs
29-01-08, 02:39 AM
Hey :wave:

Just checked over at Whedonesque and it's been revealed that Joss has told retailers to be prepared and order more copies of Issue 12 because of the huge reveal in that issue! So I don't think Jeanty was bluffing at all, whatever it is Joss thinks it's going to be big!

This has got me so nervous, I have no idea what to expect! Anyone got any ideas what the hell this is and why it's been hyped so much?

Vampmogs

Maggie
29-01-08, 04:36 AM
Thanks for the tip-off, Mogs. I read over the replies at Whedonesque, and the point that seemed most on point to me was the observation that Dawn has disappeared from the covers. We know from the blurbs that she's in Japan with the gang. So I wonder if something happens to her in #12. And we've seen a variant cover for #15 but nothing from #14, right? I wonder if that's the cover that will make clear whatever this 'bomb' is supposed to be -- and is the cover that has Dawn on it. And I wonder if the lonely Xander cover for #13 isn't related to whatever it is that happens to Dawn in #12.

Am bad at speculating. But right now, my hunch is that it's to do with Dawn. That would give Joss room to show us that there's been some purpose behind a year-long Giant Dawn plot that apparently boiled down to the burp of a reveal that it wasn't Kenny she'd actually slept with but some other guy.

None of the other speculations over there seemed to add up. Dead Xander or Willow doesn't fit with the cover of #15. Not sure how Giles could be written out for the time being and then brought back in quickly enough to get himself killed. So major character death seems out (except for Dawn). No other character death is significant enough to meet either the 'no you can't do that Joss" criteria or the "stock extra cause the copies will be flying out the stores" criteria. Bander hook-up fails those tests as well. (Though it could still happen -- it's just not a big-bang type story).

There is something to be said for something bizarre to do with Buffy. Straight-up vamping seems unlikely. But I'd rank "some twist with Buffy" right after something happen to Dawn. Anything strange with Buffy (stranger than her robbing banks, even) would constitute a story we'll be talking about for years. More so, indeed, than anything to do with Dawn. Only thing against this is cover to #15 which seems to show Buffy in an expected relationship with respect to the others.

ME has definitely gotten my attention!

Weredog
29-01-08, 04:52 AM
I have absolutely no idea what bomb Joss will be dropping on us with "Wolves at the Gate". I would agree with Maggie that a Scoobie death would be a bomb. I mean, what else would strike the fans harder than that? However on the other hand, "Wolves at the Gate" doesn't seem that it will strike fans as a dramatic episode like "Passion" or "The Body" with Dracula in the mix.

I think by Joss' comment he means that "A Beautiful Sunset" will be left at a strong cliffhanger (similar to "Becoming, Part 1" and "Seeing Red") that fans will jump for "Wolves at the Gate" for an answer.

But like I said, I have no idea. I'm trying to "de-code" from the 10 issues we've gotten, and I can't predict a single thing.

vampmogs
29-01-08, 06:38 AM
Something to do with Dawn does indeed seem possible, it is odd she isn't in the group shot for the 8.15 cover.


However on the other hand, "Wolves at the Gate" doesn't seem that it will strike fans as a dramatic episode like "Passion" or "The Body" with Dracula in the mix.

I was really skeptical about the idea of bringing Dracula back, always thought his character was a little hokey. However, the more I think about it the more I trust that they know what they're doing. But I don't think having Drac in the mix means something horrible or dramatic like a Scooby death can't happen. I mean if you think about it, Joyce's death was revealed in the same episode that centered heavily on a rather comedic love sex bot... so if that's any indication of how much Joss can surprise us, I wouldn't rule anything out.

alexa
29-01-08, 08:06 AM
Well the cover for #12 has Buffy looking a little upset.. maybe it has something to do with the betrayer thing. Joss likes to mess with the big emotional reveals so.. plus it has to be something Buffy fans will want to get their hands on (more so then usual). Does that mean cliffhanger in #11.. well most of the issues have cliffhangers so. They kind of suck though.. normally we only had to wait a week to see what happened next, but now it's a month.. Although I was waiting 3 months for season 3 and 6 to start, after the non happy ending.
Well I'm really hooked into this season now.

Maggie
29-01-08, 08:11 AM
I'm probably all fuzzy headed cause I'm in the middle of an all-nighter. But I'm thinking it really does have to be about Dawn. She's this big huge gigantic story that has no real purpose (that we can see). And there's been this on-going oddness which is that nobody seems much concerned about it. Buffy's worried about Twilight. Her sister being a giant hasn't really gotten her attention. In fact, one could almost say that Dawn has literally been the elephant in the room that nobody is talking about. They assume it's all about the sex, and that's about it. I mean, it took Xander all the way to the last issue to actually do something to make her situation more comfortable.

In the last issue, we finally get the big reveal about Dawn, and it's just not that interesting. The only 'twist' is that she's not the innocent victim, she cheated on her boyfriend. And in the last panel of her talk with Xander, he's asked her whether it feels good that she's got it all off her chest. And she looks anything but relieved. One wonders if she's really told the whole story. Or if there's any significance to the fact that the boyfriend's name is Nick. Nick is another name for Satan. Which Dawn just happens to call herself just a bit further down. The literal meaning of 'satan' is 'adversary'. And now Dawn goes to Tokyo with the gang but is not with the team on the cover of #15. Seems like there's a big fat opening there for it to turn out that there was more to her encounter with Nick than she's told us so far.

A story that broke that way would get us some interesting sister issues that could reflect off the 'sister' slayer story we just got between Buffy and Faith. And it's not like Dawn would have just gone evil. Whatever has happened could well be related to her encounter with this Nick guy.

And it would be quite devastating if Buffy had to kill Dawn herself as a result of whatever it is that has gone down. That could explain the tragic feel of the cover of #13. And there would be this irony that while they were all focusing on Twilight and ignoring Dawn's situation, Dawn's situation turned out to be entangled with the Twilight deal somehow. If Buffy had made a real move to be open with Dawn, maybe the tragedy could have been averted.

OK. It's late. I'm lousy at speculation. But there it is.

Wolfie Gilmore
29-01-08, 01:21 PM
Re Nick - we never found out HOW she got gianted, and she never said explicitly that Kenny did it... so, who knows what we still don't know about that?

But, re the whole big huge deal thing...I was assuming it'd be the traitor reveal?

Spoilers for Angel issue 3: Would be rather funny if Buffy became a vampire at exactly the same time Angel became human...though, cheap!

KingofCretins
29-01-08, 01:36 PM
I'm not saying this in a way derogatory to Mabus' work on DeadWar, but for actual, canon Buffy? Turning her into a vampire is about the worst effin' idea ever.

She'd be *dead*. She wouldn't *be* Buffy. She's be a demon in a Buffy suit. That's been canon since "The Harvest" and has never even been drawn into question.

My predictions are about the same as they've been.

-- the traitor is revealed "to the camera" but not to Buffy.
-- Buffy and Xander have their Marvin Gaye moment at long last. Or they kiss or are otherwise shown to be in a romantic thing.
-- Twilight's identity is revealed "to the camera" in a separate scene.
-- a character return of the Oz-Spike-Angel-Anya-Tara magnitude.

Wolfie Gilmore
29-01-08, 03:23 PM
I'm not saying this in a way derogatory to Mabus' work on DeadWar, but for actual, canon Buffy? Turning her into a vampire is about the worst effin' idea ever.

She'd be *dead*. She wouldn't *be* Buffy. She's be a demon in a Buffy suit. That's been canon since "The Harvest" and has never even been drawn into question.

Yup. Cheap! So, probably unlikely.

Bubblecat
29-01-08, 11:20 PM
Actually, it's Dark House that have recommended more orders and it could be Drew's involvement that has prompted this due to the success of Cloverfield.

Having said that, maybe it is to do with the storyline....

Not sure where they could go with a Buffy as Vampire storyline - I mean, as said before, it would non-Buffy and therefore it would be a story about the rest of the humans. It's also a storyline already being played out on AATF.

I'll take a bet on Xander and Buffy getting together or....a reveal about the betrayal - who or what could make the Buffster disintergrate at this point? Not sure, but my interest is spiked (excuse the pun).

Veverka
30-01-08, 12:12 AM
My thoughts about a scooby death are, well, would that make fans buy more issues? Or would we reject/cry/not buy the issue/buffyverse...


I'm not saying this in a way derogatory to Mabus' work on DeadWar, but for actual, canon Buffy? Turning her into a vampire is about the worst effin' idea ever.


Yeah, well, wouldn't be Buffy then, you know. I mean, start a new era of Buffy verse, then kill off our girl? Lame. We've had her dead twice, and vamped in an ep... that's plenty!!!

But the take on Bander happenings... woot! That would be tops!

OkinawanSteel
30-01-08, 12:14 AM
It was said on the Dark Horse board, and I'll say it here, I don't feel any sort of ship related development would live up to the hype created for this issue.

Phoenix
30-01-08, 06:08 AM
Thanks for posting that :)
Seems really interesting, all this hype for just one issue! Should be damn good, I cant wait to see what it is. Some good theories going on too :)

Nostalgia
30-01-08, 06:12 AM
Thanks for the tip-off, Mogs. I read over the replies at Whedonesque, and the point that seemed most on point to me was the observation that Dawn has disappeared from the covers. We know from the blurbs that she's in Japan with the gang. So I wonder if something happens to her in #12. And we've seen a variant cover for #15 but nothing from #14, right? I wonder if that's the cover that will make clear whatever this 'bomb' is supposed to be -- and is the cover that has Dawn on it. And I wonder if the lonely Xander cover for #13 isn't related to whatever it is that happens to Dawn in #12.

Am bad at speculating. But right now, my hunch is that it's to do with Dawn. That would give Joss room to show us that there's been some purpose behind a year-long Giant Dawn plot that apparently boiled down to the burp of a reveal that it wasn't Kenny she'd actually slept with but some other guy.

None of the other speculations over there seemed to add up. Dead Xander or Willow doesn't fit with the cover of #15. Not sure how Giles could be written out for the time being and then brought back in quickly enough to get himself killed. So major character death seems out (except for Dawn). No other character death is significant enough to meet either the 'no you can't do that Joss" criteria or the "stock extra cause the copies will be flying out the stores" criteria. Bander hook-up fails those tests as well. (Though it could still happen -- it's just not a big-bang type story).

There is something to be said for something bizarre to do with Buffy. Straight-up vamping seems unlikely. But I'd rank "some twist with Buffy" right after something happen to Dawn. Anything strange with Buffy (stranger than her robbing banks, even) would constitute a story we'll be talking about for years. More so, indeed, than anything to do with Dawn. Only thing against this is cover to #15 which seems to show Buffy in an expected relationship with respect to the others.

ME has definitely gotten my attention!

:: stirs up inside::

Waits it out..

Waits it out..

!!!!!!!!!

THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING FROM THE BEGINNING?!!U#U@!*$YU@*)(

Ah... that's better. : )

Much before anything was noted on that "Whedonesque", I had been noting the fact that Dawn is missing from all of the upcoming covers. That this may be a huge detail to the fact of a big surprise in the series. I also questioned how they could possibly make her big and have her in Tokyo at the same time... something just seemed fishy.

::coughcreditcough::

It's good to see others on the same idea now.. because everything seems to be pointing to a Dawn-esque situation. I'm surprised it was so left-ball field for us though.. considering her recent growth and the fact that she's been so shy to the series so far. We haven't really seen anyone connecting with her or delving into her situation until "Anywhere But Here". And besides Willow, she's been mrs. holes in terms of plot.. we have no idea what really is the truth.. because she's been spinning lies and overall not giving us what we need to know.

I made some crazy scheme of how she is the traitor.. and how Joss had mind warped us by Dawn actually never being Buffy's sister.. but that was a bit far-fetch :).

Koos
30-01-08, 02:17 PM
The Dawn theory seems very plausible. She hasn't appeared on any cover yet, while she has been explicitely mentioned to be in the next arc. Xander might have taken Buffy to her room for a romantic night, according to the teaser. But to me it seems they are looking up. That could indicate Dawn.

But I have my doubts that she's involved in the revelation that Joss is referring to. I love Dawn, but I don't see a reason why she would be able to increase the sales dramatically.

The same problem I have with anything involving Satsu, except for maybe a hot lesbian scene between her and Buffy ;) She's definitely involved in the season somehow, but not for the Big Revelation. I think it's gonna be her father who is Twilight. My guess.

It's something big and it's something that would make looking back and the end of the season. So, it's not big plot revealing, just some clues.

My ideas:
- Something involving Xander. Sex/romance between him and Buffy. Or him revealed as the traitor/mole. Or he's a vampire.
- Buffy is a vampire. I know some fans would hate this, but I think Joss could do it. Not much chance though.
- Spike or Angel show up.
- Tara. Don't know how, but I have a strong feeling she will show up. They have been mysterious about her and it would fit a big surprise . . . somehow.

DorothyFan1
31-01-08, 02:16 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong...but have we seen Buffy in the comics in scenes that *explicitly* show daytime? Most of the scenes with Buffy show her in late afternoons and evenings. Both Xander and Willow point out that Buffy is afraid of the "dark". I, too, have been wondering whether or not the big "reveal" actually is referring to Buffy herself.

If the reveal is about Twilight being someone who is part of the Scoobies..then my guess is this could be either Riley or Giles.

A very plausible explanation about Robin's comment about "betrayal, the closest, the most unexpected"...is probably referring to Dawn. Is it possible Dawn's mysterious boyfriend is actually Twilight? In that case, the mole becomes clearly Dawn. But why Dawn would want Buffy dead? Remember, if the traitor is Dawn...remember what Gigi told Faith about those videotapes...she had paid dearly to get them. Someone had been selling out Buffy for all this time...someone on the inside giving copies of tapes showing Buffy training.

alexa
31-01-08, 03:18 AM
She's in the daylight in 10.. and 8, that I can think of.
Not to mention during Twilight in several scenes in 1 and another I think.
I don't get the vampire Buffy rumors... why would Joss kill off the main character. Sort of an odd suggestion.

Sosa lola
31-01-08, 09:33 AM
She's also in the dightlight in issue two while training the slayers.

Koos
31-01-08, 04:20 PM
A very plausible explanation about Robin's comment about "betrayal, the closest, the most unexpected"...is probably referring to Dawn. Is it possible Dawn's mysterious boyfriend is actually Twilight? In that case, the mole becomes clearly Dawn. But why Dawn would want Buffy dead? Remember, if the traitor is Dawn...remember what Gigi told Faith about those videotapes...she had paid dearly to get them. Someone had been selling out Buffy for all this time...someone on the inside giving copies of tapes showing Buffy training.

How could Dawn get them? I mean she's a Giant, she can't go through the corridors and get them. And is possible for Dawn to make them without getting noticed?

Skippcomet
31-01-08, 07:43 PM
For all we know, Twilight's mask and costume are hiding the reanimated almost-sliced-in-half face and body of Anya. Or at least her possessed corpse.

As for whatever the reason comics shops are being recommended to order more copies of this issue...would it be too exploitative of Joss if he were sneaking in a girl-on-girl Buffy/Satsu kiss? Not the idea of the kiss itself, but the idea that he'd be urging shops to order more copies of the issue for it....Okay, that does sound too much like the kind of cheap "Ally McBeal kisses a woman without actually switching teams!" stunt Joss once criticized other TV shows for doing.

OkinawanSteel
31-01-08, 10:02 PM
I'm still open to the possibility that Twilight is a woman. It seems like a long shot, because we've seen Twilight and it does look decidedly masculine, but we really have no idea what it is physically yet. It could still turn out to be something with no specific gender. It really could be anything. It would also seem an obvious move to throw us off the scent. The impact of it being somebody like Anya or Tara (or at least seeming to be them) would be massive too. Point is, I'm not ruling anything out at this point.

I don't see how a girl-on-girl kiss would help flog more comics. It's not really the same as having, say, SMG and Eliza make out in one episode. It's just a drawing. I don't think the "lesbian kiss as ratings ploy" move really translates into the comic book medium. Besides, that'd be less of a reveal and more of a surprising incident.

EDIT: Didn't Joss say in an interview that Anya's "definitely dead, but that doesn't mean she's gone"? That could mean a number of things, but it works with Skippcomet's theory.

Heather
31-01-08, 10:06 PM
I'I don't see how a girl-on-girl kiss would help flog more comics. It's not really the same as having, say, SMG and Eliza make out in one episode. It's just a drawing. I don't think the "lesbian kiss as ratings ploy" move really translates into the comic book medium. Besides, that'd be less of a reveal and more of a surprising incident.

I agree. Besides, if the writers are trying to plug raunchy panels into the issues just to sell more comics and to provide guys with spank-the-monkey material, that's not only disgusting exploitation to me but also really stupid. If the Faith/Gigi bathtub scene didn't help sell 8.08, do they really think a kiss will? Even if it's Buffy doing the kissing?

No, I believe it'll be something plot-related. Something thoroughly shocking. Something that will force everyone to reread everything - 8.12 and the comics before it. A lame-o lesbian kiss scene is just...nothing of interest.

DorothyFan1
01-02-08, 02:59 AM
I agree. Besides, if the writers are trying to plug raunchy panels into the issues just to sell more comics and to provide guys with spank-the-monkey material, that's not only disgusting exploitation to me but also really stupid. If the Faith/Gigi bathtub scene didn't help sell 8.08, do they really think a kiss will? Even if it's Buffy doing the kissing?

No, I believe it'll be something plot-related. Something thoroughly shocking. Something that will force everyone to reread everything - 8.12 and the comics before it. A lame-o lesbian kiss scene is just...nothing of interest.

1. Buffy killing Dawn.
2. Buffy revealed as a Vampire.
3. Giles murdering Faith.
4. Twilight is Tara.

Explaining number 4...remember what happened after Tara was killed. Willow pleaded with the gods to revive Tara. They said her death was "natural" so therefore her plea was denied. Willow put Tara's body on the floor..and took out the darkest magic book she had in possession. She used her powers to literally "absorb" the evil magic into her consciousness. What if...and this is my theory...what *if* Willow's actions actually seeped into the dead body of Tara and now Tara is pure evil. Willow has embodied all of evil into the corpse of her lover and now...Twilight is here. "Beginning" and "End" is the meaning of Twilight.

KingofCretins
01-02-08, 03:06 AM
#2 is, as so many suggestions are, manifestly impossible. We've seen Buffy in daylight several times.

#4 is, again, impossible. Twilight is unmistakably male. And nothing about your theory explains Tara's animated corpse losing its breastsicles and gaining a six pack and what looks like a 46 jacket size.

Really, only Giles killing Faith sounds even discussibly plausible, and it would only happen in the context of demonstrating that Giles is a traitor, not Twilight himself (since we know that he can't be).

DorothyFan1
01-02-08, 03:28 AM
The costume by Twilight is *masculine*...this doesn't necessarily mean the person hiding inside it is a man. The best way to disguise the identity of the traitor or leader of Twilight and misdirect people is to let them think it's a "guy".

I noticed you were silent on option number 1. Does that mean number 1 is still in play, Cretins?

KingofCretins
01-02-08, 03:40 AM
No, it's pretty much too far outside any logical story development to speculate on. I mean, why would she? People in Joss' series don't just do stuff just because. Even if Dawn were the mole, why would Buffy just *kill* her? Makes no sense at all.

The wank about the costume is just nuts, man. You seriously look for the hardest possible explanation to everything :)

Twilight is a guy. Twilight isn't Xander or Giles. None of the characters are robots. Buffy isn't going to kill her sister just because.

DorothyFan1
01-02-08, 05:04 AM
How do you explain Dawn's absence from the 8.15 cover then? This is clearly evidence something has happened to Dawn in 8.12. We get covers for 13 and 15 but not 14. There's no reason why Dawn can't be on the cover. She goes to Japan to stomp around. So she's there...so why is she not on the covers? Something happens to Dawn. I'm really curious about the 8.14 cover photo as this would be a very interesting thing to see.

There is something somebody said about Twilight...that he's a woman hating bigot. If that's true...then why is Lt Molter is standing there with him and getting instructions and hearing his lectures? A woman hating bigot he's not. After all, Molter is a military lieutenant. So...assuming the assessment that Twilight *is* a woman hater...then Twilight shouldn't be speaking to a woman named Molter at all. One way or another...we'll learn whether Twilight is a man or woman soon enough next week.

Nostalgia
01-02-08, 05:10 AM
How do you explain Dawn's absence from the 8.15 cover then? This is clearly evidence something has happened to Dawn in 8.12. We get covers for 13 and 15 but not 14. There's no reason why Dawn can't be on the cover. She goes to Japan to stomp around. So she's there...so why is she not on the covers? Something happens to Dawn. I'm really curious about the 8.14 cover photo as this would be a very interesting thing to see.

There is something somebody said about Twilight...that he's a woman hating bigot. If that's true...then why is Lt Molter is standing there with him and getting instructions and hearing his lectures? A woman hating bigot he's not. After all, Molter is a military lieutenant. So...assuming the assessment that Twilight *is* a woman hater...then Twilight shouldn't be speaking to a woman named Molter at all. One way or another...we'll learn whether Twilight is a man or woman soon enough next week.

I'm sorry.. but there is no even a shot that Twilight is a woman. How can we even speculate this by even looking at the cover of "A Beautiful Sunset?" No woman has a build like that.. not even unworldly-like.

As for Dawn.. the "reveal" definitely is related to Dawn. It doesn't add up to her unexcused absences on the covers, her missing info (let's face it.. we don't know what's the truth with her), and her overall absence from the series. Although, this all is true, there's not one chance that Buffy kills her sister.. unless she isn't her sister.. which I have speculated.

KingofCretins
01-02-08, 05:13 AM
How do you explain Dawn's absence from the 8.15 cover then? This is clearly evidence something has happened to Dawn in 8.12.

Dawn is absent from every cover and variant after 8.04. What is your point? She's still alive. Nothing happened to her. Why does it *now* mean that something happens to her? Out of the 30 total covers, including variants and trade paperbacks, Dawn has appeared in exactly one so far.


There is something somebody said about Twilight...that he's a woman hating bigot.

Nobody says that verbatim. If you saw it, you saw it in a discussion. And it's likely not the case. The only dialogue even close to this is in 8.04, when Buffy confronts Gen. Voll. She initially accuses that Twilight (which at this point, and even now, she still only knows of as an organization, not an individual) is just upset about women having power. Voll actually dispels that notion immediately, and nothing that's happened since suggests that Buffy was correct. It's not about men vs. women. It's about the magical vs. the mundane.


...we'll learn whether Twilight is a man or woman soon enough next week.

Yes... you will.

Phoenix
01-02-08, 06:27 AM
I love all the speculation and theories in this thread, really keeps my mind thinking about it all the time :p

Although I have pretty much no idea whatsoever it could be.. its just going to be huge, we all know that.

Cant wait :)

Maggie
01-02-08, 06:58 AM
Dawn is absent from every cover and variant after 8.04. What is your point? She's still alive. Nothing happened to her. Why does it *now* mean that something happens to her? Out of the 30 total covers, including variants and trade paperbacks, Dawn has appeared in exactly one so far.

You keep making this point. And I keep replying. The reason her absence matters now is because she's NOT on the 'gang's all here' cover of 8.15 When you've got a cover showing everyone but one person, that one person's absence is probably significant.

So that's why it *now* means that something might well have happened to her.

alexa
01-02-08, 08:00 AM
She may have been resized and left to go back to Berkley by 8.15. While for Dawn I hope she does, but I'm also interested in finding out more about the purpose of her large story. I'm not really sure what the purpose is of arguing over what sex the big bad is :p Only matters what he/she does. Although I do think the whole magic vs human world does have a feminist angle to it. It's come about because certain men/people aren't happy with thousands of women being suddenly empowered.

EndersWrath
01-02-08, 09:40 AM
How do you explain Dawn's absence from the 8.15 cover then?

Easily :) How exactly would a giant fit into a Seven Samurai tribute pic? As you said she is a giant stomping around Tokyo... so as far as we know she is still a giant in 8.15. She could be in the 8.14 cover fully alive and well, and Joss is laughing very evil like because he didn't release that cover just to get that thought into our heads. Buffy isn't gonna kill Dawn, Dawn isn't gonna die (I mean wouldn't Buffy be a LOT more somber if she was dead?) and if Dawn were the traitor wouldn't that be more incentive to have her on a cover?

I thinking it has something to do with Xander, and I'm really excited as this seems to be a Xander and Buffy arc (not necessarily together but those two characters) ... not a Dawn arc... which explains her absence in the covers also. I mean we didn't get Xander or Willow in the Faith arc, but that didn't mean that one of them died or was killed. Though the 8.04 cover really would have been fitting for this arc...

Maggie
01-02-08, 05:24 PM
Easily :) How exactly would a giant fit into a Seven Samurai tribute pic? As you said she is a giant stomping around Tokyo... so as far as we know she is still a giant in 8.15. She could be in the 8.14 cover fully alive and well, and Joss is laughing very evil like because he didn't release that cover just to get that thought into our heads.

Easy to put a giant in the picture if she's really part of the gang at this point: just show a giant sized boot or something.


Buffy isn't gonna kill Dawn, Dawn isn't gonna die (I mean wouldn't Buffy be a LOT more somber if she was dead?) and if Dawn were the traitor wouldn't that be more incentive to have her on a cover?

They all look very somber in #13. And the cover of 8.15 is the gang standing shoulder-to-shoulder to face whoever it is that they are confronting, and it's perfectly reasonable to not show who that is.


I thinking it has something to do with Xander, and I'm really excited as this seems to be a Xander and Buffy arc (not necessarily together but those two characters) ... not a Dawn arc... which explains her absence in the covers also. I mean we didn't get Xander or Willow in the Faith arc, but that didn't mean that one of them died or was killed. Though the 8.04 cover really would have been fitting for this arc...

In the blurbs, we are told that Dawn went with the gang. So here we get a picture of the gang which includes marginal members like Renee and Andrew, but not Dawn. The absence still seems pretty pointed. Also the fact that the last issue intercuts Dawn's story with the reveal about betrayal and lies and what not is interesting.

KingofCretins
01-02-08, 05:34 PM
Easy to put a giant in the picture if she's really part of the gang at this point: just show a giant sized boot or something.

If Kurosawa had had a giant character and there had been a big boot in the movie poster, I'm sure that Jeanty would have done the same. I'm assuming that's what EndersWrath meant by 'fitting'.

We saw this in 8.09 -- the variant was an homage to "The Avengers", but that was basically a throwaway line at the end of the issue.

Look, I can't completely rule out that Dawn getting killed or turning evil or something might be the 8.12 surprise (although the idea that Buffy would kill doesn't make any sense), but the cover art as a reason to think so is tenuous at best.

This does appear to be primarily a Buffy arc and a Xander arc, and to me, the most likely surprise would be that it's a Buffy/Xander arc.

Maggie
01-02-08, 08:17 PM
If Kurosawa had had a giant character and there had been a big boot in the movie poster, I'm sure that Jeanty would have done the same. I'm assuming that's what EndersWrath meant by 'fitting'.

By the same token, it wouldn't fit to have one of the Samurai off screen. Nor, for that matter, would it fit if it turns out there are really Eight Samurai and we're just missing one here due to space constraints.


This does appear to be primarily a Buffy arc and a Xander arc, and to me, the most likely surprise would be that it's a Buffy/Xander arc.

If Bander is the 'surprise' they've oversold the 'bombshell' by about a factor of 100. They've only been telegraphing it for 10 issues. It's not the sort of thing that should cause such a run on the books that retailers need to be warned that they might sell out.

Nostalgia
01-02-08, 09:44 PM
Look, I can't completely rule out that Dawn getting killed or turning evil or something might be the 8.12 surprise (although the idea that Buffy would kill doesn't make any sense), but the cover art as a reason to think so is tenuous at best.


How is it tenuous? We've seen from the previous issues that the covers usually have some kind of significant meaning to the episode or at least theme.. Now the variants are much more experimental... so that's less of an extent.. but it's notable to see a trend of an absence of her in the covers.

It's not just been in the covers though.. we haven't seen her interact with anyone besides twice with Xander and once with Willow.. she has been very underused so far this season.. has been spinning lies to everyone.. and has been very depressed lately. The way they ended it in "Anywhere But Here" led me to believe that either she wasn't telling the whole truth, or she was definitely leaving more out.

I agree that having Bander as the reveal would be a HUGE disappointment. That's not going to be talked about for years.. if you want controversy.. you need death or betrayal.

And honestly.. how are they going to have her stomping around in Tokyo? I don't see how that's going to work.. she definitely comes.. (it's been confirmed).. but it's a little suspicious.

KingofCretins
01-02-08, 09:55 PM
Well, speaking of 8.12, they've released a five page preview of it. Which I find really odd, since 8.11 hasn't come out. I already read it -- there are plot developments, but no 8.11 spoilers unless they are really, really subtle.

8.12 "Wolves at the Gate", Part I preview (http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=12867)

Definitely some, uh, interesting stuff going on there. Discussion of the preview *should* be spoilered, since this isn't a discussion thread :)

Some Xander/Renee stuff there. For starters, can't imagine that *that* is what we'd be talking about for years. Still hope it's going to slingshot us toward Buffy/Xander, since he will now qualify as unattainable to her.

The cover thing is tenuous because, as mentioned, 1 out of 30 covers have Dawn.

Koos
01-02-08, 11:06 PM
8.12 "Wolves at the Gate", Part I preview (http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=12867)

Some Xander/Renee stuff there. For starters, can't imagine that *that* is what we'd be talking about for years. Still hope it's going to slingshot us toward Buffy/Xander, since he will now qualify as unattainable to her.


I fear for you. It's not looking pretty for the B/X-ers. But this is Xander's side of the deal, not Buffy's. It also doesn't seem that Dawn is going to be the centre of the mysterious reveal.
I think the fog is going to get them too and they are bringing them to . . . Japan? Still thinking it's going to be time travel story.

Enisy
01-02-08, 11:16 PM
Aww, Xander and Renee are adorable in those five pages. I'm in the chunk of the fandom that likes Andrew, so I didn't mind seeing him, either. And I'm happy to note that Jeanty's girls are slowly but steadily improving. (Really, the only one he seems to have a really hard time making her look her age is Buffy.)

Nostalgia
01-02-08, 11:54 PM
Yeah... wow. Didn't see them getting that close. Xander and Renee are definitely looking coupley'.. and I really don't see Renee becoming evil at this point. She seems very attached to the group.. Whoever it is.. Joss is doing a great job at hiding them.

And who is the woman grabbing Willow by the back? And where exactly is she? Wednesday cannot come sooner.

modifiedblind
02-02-08, 01:06 AM
it says something though that the second time renee is on guard duty, the castle is going to be attacked.. maybe just coincidence. poor dawn, how uncomfortable first off sleeping in a barn, second.. no blanket?

alexa
02-02-08, 03:47 AM
How evil i releasing the preview before we even get #11. Lucky bastards who are way ahead of me ;)

I'd really like to have a small cameo in this comic to push Renee off the edge of the castle in that scene. :p The girl behind Willow doesn't look familiar.. was she with Andrew before? Wonder what's in the case. I guess the fog is Dracula-ist...

Maggie
02-02-08, 06:16 AM
Cool pages. Some random observations:

1: Nice follow up on how Renee was feeling after the zombie attack.
2. Chilling panel at the bottom of page 2. Who wants to feel alone on a night like this -- when the wolves are gathering at the gate. Poignant when we think of how isolated Buffy feels in general. And if Xenee is happening, the only person she's close to is going to have less time for her as well.
3. Can I just say I'm tired of flying Willow?
4. Dawn sleeps in a barn or outside. Just a stray reminder that her situation really blows. And the only gesture we've seen from anybody suggesting that they care about it in any kind of urgent way was Xander's effort to get her stuffed bigged to fit her.
5. Willow's expression on seeing Andrew off seems affectionate. Wonder when and why she became fond of him.
6. Vampires with Dracula-like skills. Check.
7. Wonder if the early release of these pages is to damp down the widespread reaction to the preview pages of #11 which was that Bander was definitely happening.
8. I liked the Renee/Xander vibe in LWH. I still like it here. And since she's at his side on the cover of #15 we can at least hope this means she'll be around in a good capacity for at least a few issues before something terrible happens.

KingofCretins
02-02-08, 06:49 AM
1: Nice follow up on how Renee was feeling after the zombie attack.

Always nice to see a little continuity. And nice to see Xander is at least still somewhat smoothe, and that Renee is not a complete shrinking violet -- unless of course she's still just trying to get close to him.


2. Chilling panel at the bottom of page 2. Who wants to feel alone on a night like this -- when the wolves are gathering at the gate. Poignant when we think of how isolated Buffy feels in general. And if Xenee is happening, the only person she's close to is going to have less time for her as well.

The answer to that is obvious :)


3. Can I just say I'm tired of flying Willow?

Flying Willow is great. Flying Willow is *necessary*, since they are telling a world-wide story for the first time and, honestly, they need multiple options of mobility to make that work. It can't all be done between issues, sometimes they'll have to get from A to B during an issue.


4. Dawn sleeps in a barn or outside. Just a stray reminder that her situation really blows. And the only gesture we've seen from anybody suggesting that they care about it in any kind of urgent way was Xander's effort to get her stuffed bigged to fit her.

Definitely a crappy situation. The fact that Xander took an interest is part of why I wondered if maybe they'd be going that route, 'ship wise. I think I'm just kinda unhappy with the idea that Xander doesn't "work" with any of the established dating options so Joss decided to invent one.


5. Willow's expression on seeing Andrew off seems affectionate. Wonder when and why she became fond of him.

I imagine sometime during or after the point during which he stood with them, and after. Willow may even have known the truth about Anya and that Andrew used his 'talent' wisely for once.


6. Vampires with Dracula-like skills. Check.

Very cool storyline.


7. Wonder if the early release of these pages is to damp down the widespread reaction to the preview pages of #11 which was that Bander was definitely happening.

Can't imagine they'd actually feel compelled to do that.

[quote]8. I liked the Renee/Xander vibe in LWH. I still like it here. And since she's at his side on the cover of #15 we can at least hope this means she'll be around in a good capacity for at least a few issues before something terrible happens.

Hey, maybe it's a 'ship. I don't know. I'm still, again, completely confused by Renee's ethnicity, though. Makes her very hard to fancast.

Maggie
02-02-08, 07:27 AM
Flying Willow is great. Flying Willow is *necessary*, since they are telling a world-wide story for the first time and, honestly, they need multiple options of mobility to make that work. It can't all be done between issues, sometimes they'll have to get from A to B during an issue.

They don't need to spend all the time showing us the transport. And it's been done for a second time here. I get it. The girl can fly. Woo hoo. I'll only be appeased on this if Willow's saturation in magic/nearly unlimited power becomes a storyline. If left as is, it looks like "woo hoo, we can draw people doing things that would have taxed the special effects team if this were all live-action."



Definitely a crappy situation. The fact that Xander took an interest is part of why I wondered if maybe they'd be going that route, 'ship wise. I think I'm just kinda unhappy with the idea that Xander doesn't "work" with any of the established dating options so Joss decided to invent one.

Well, I can see that it would make you unhappy, since Bander obviously works for you. I still won't be surprised if we land there. But I'm one of those for whom it doesn't work. So am happy to see him get some screen time with someone else. Though I suspect my happiness will inevitably wax and yours will inevitably wane. Am just hoping that by the time that happens, it will seem less forced than it presently does.



I imagine sometime during or after the point during which he stood with them, and after. Willow may even have known the truth about Anya and that Andrew used his 'talent' wisely for once.

Not so hard to fill in the blanks here, I suppose. But it's one of those gaps -- and now that we know that the gaps tend to be pointed, it's just a reminder that the Andrew we knew was not watcher material; nor particularly likeable. So I can still hope that the further reveals will make sense of this in a good way.





Can't imagine they'd actually feel compelled to do that.

Me either. But it is weird that these pages came out now. And interesting that where the last previews sealed the deal on Bander for many; these make it clear that Bander is not in the immediate offing.

Sosa lola
02-02-08, 09:03 AM
I wish they hadn't showed these preview pages. They should've waited a little after we got issue 11. Now we won't have teasers after issue 11. :(

I'd say this is the first time Jeanty got Xander down, now he looks so much like S7 Xander, no one could argue with that far as I can see.

I'm also tired of Willow flying. But I guess it was a must because of the Willow kidnappage. Plus Willow flying her friends to places they want saves them money.

alexa
02-02-08, 11:05 AM
Well, I can see that it would make you unhappy, since Bander obviously works for you. I still won't be surprised if we land there. But I'm one of those for whom it doesn't work. So am happy to see him get some screen time with someone else. Though I suspect my happiness will inevitably wax and yours will inevitably wane. Am just hoping that by the time that happens, it will seem less forced than it presently does.

I agree with King that the Renee thing feels very manufactured. Which yeah it's a story, everything is.. but this more so. It's almost like Joss has decided it's too complicated to get Buffy and Xander together, so lets write in this slayer with a weird earring.. Grr.

Oh well I'm at least comforted a little oddly that Nick Brendan is in agreement with me wanting some Bander action. Watched him in this youtube (http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=dlxJD1BYq50) video. Plus with the Buffy/Xander closeness here, then Renee over there I'm not really sure where it's going.. seems like it's building to something. We haven't had so much interaction - in that way with B/X for years..

I also noticed the sweet smile Willow gave Andrew.. almost seemed weird.

Thomas
02-02-08, 04:57 PM
The fact that Willow offers Andrew a tour of the castle and Xander mentions not knowing if there are zoos in Scotland makes me wonder how long they've been there.

As far a Xanee, I can't get passed the matching hair and outfits. :lol:

ThePoet's<3
02-02-08, 10:17 PM
Xanee is a set up... She's probably vampire-fodder when the attack hits. Especially after saying she screwed up the first time and she WON'T let it happen again. *click-click - BANG!*

Tired of flying Willow - tired of GIANT DAWN! Next PLEEEEEEASE! Just ready for some VAMPIRES!

The girl who attacked Willow - she looks a little familiar but I can't think of where I know her from... Is she the betrayer?? Looks a little Satsu-ish to me...

DorothyFan1
03-02-08, 01:38 AM
You're not alone about wondering about the woman who kidnaps Willow. If I didn't know any better...I would say it's Amy in a different getup. Notice the costume she's wearing?! Compare the costume she's wearing to what we see in the last panels of issue 8.9 when we see Lt Molter talk to Twilight. They're virtually identical. I can't place this woman either...but there is something "odd" about her.

King of Cretins says its evidence she's a vampire...because of her Dracula like skill of being invisible and able to appear out of thin air. I'm not sure about that because look carefully at her costume again...especially behind her head...this is a top hat. The top hat is usually a symbol of magic...and in this case we're talking about a major new Wiccan threat.

KingofCretins
03-02-08, 02:16 AM
I guess it's a question of how many subplots are going to realistically fit into a single comic arc. As a rule, you seem to find Doestoevsky like complexity in every issue, where it will fit about a dozen different plot threads together.

The straightforward and most likely explanation is that, seeing as she is a pale woman, not at all unlike the one on the cover, and that the arc is about vampires with strange but familiar powers, and that Dracula is the one they'll be calling in to help them deal with them, this woman is probably one of those strangely but familiarly powered vampires, as are the wolves we see, and that they are staging an attack on the BHC that will conclude in some way with the gang going to Japan, presumably in pursuit of them.

DorothyFan1
03-02-08, 02:29 AM
You haven't told me how this figures into the *betrayal* that Joss says justifies retailers getting more copies of 8.12 when it comes out. As to finding Dostoevsky like complexity...well, that's me Cretins. I'm the one constantly dreaming up those theories to keep the board bubbling with speculations and thinking over.

Remember the one when speculation had it Xander and Buffy are actually Dawn's real parents? I kid you not.

Heather
03-02-08, 02:38 AM
You haven't told me how this figures into the *betrayal* that Joss says justifies retailers getting more copies of 8.12 when it comes out.

There's no garuntee that the betrayal will be revealed in 8.12, to my knowledge. All we know is that something big happens that Joss thinks it warrants the ordering of more copies of the issue. Last I checked: we don't know whether or not this big thing is even connected to the betrayal or not.

KingofCretins
03-02-08, 02:39 AM
Actually, that was raised in at least one thread (http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1836) by me, but purely as an academic topic, not something I would ever expect to see brought up in an actual canon story -- why would it, it doesn't really matter.

It started with this fic, "Critical" by Fia Reynne (http://fiareynne.livejournal.com/116130.html), which proposes that when crafting Dawn's physical body, the monks took genetic material from Buffy (which I already believed) and from Xander, (basically because he was nearby) and made Dawn from that material. I always thought Dawn was probably, biologically speaking, Buffy's daughter -- since the monks made Dawn "out of" Buffy, and she isn't a clone or she would be, y'know, a clone. Next most likely option is daughter.

Since it isn't and never would be plot relevant, it just came up as its own topic.

As for the 8.12 topic... easy. Neither Joss nor Jeanty nor Scott Allie has said or implied that the betrayal angle or anything to do with it is related to the event that will make 8.12 such a big deal. That's a conclusion you've pretty much jumped to in a vacuum.

DorothyFan1
03-02-08, 04:13 AM
Except for one thing...the cover for 8.13 doesn't suggest anything remotely like a Bander pairing...which correct me if I'm wrong...is the popular topic of the moment on the "other" forum...which you and I also discuss. So I highly doubt a Bander reveal is the big "something" that suggests a reason for retailers buying more issues of 8.12. Joss *did* say it has something to do with the reveal. I'm going with the suggestion he's referring to the identity of Twilight. After all...it's being promoted that the "new BIG BAD is *revealed*.

For something like a reveal of a Big Bad being a reason for ordering more issues of 8.12 has any significance...I'd say this person is someone we know and never suspected of turning evil. Willow is out of the question for sure because she's is on the Kurosawa 7 Buffy cover on 8.15 in Buffy's corner. The one person *not* in that cover is Dawn. Notice...we haven't gotten the cover for 8.14 which probably is the cover showing either the traitor or the identity of Twilight.

KingofCretins
03-02-08, 04:18 AM
Except for one thing...the cover for 8.13 doesn't suggest anything remotely like a Bander pairing...

It doesn't suggest anything to do with the traitor angle, either, of course. It's possible... just possible... that the cover mostly has to do with what happens in 8.13 instead of 8.12.


After all...it's being promoted that the "new BIG BAD is *revealed*.

You mean the promotion for 8.11? That is where that phrase appeared. Nothing at all to do with 8.12. And in this case, revealed apparently means revealed to Buffy, since she still has no idea there is a *person* called Twilight.

Koos
03-02-08, 08:32 AM
Okay, new theory. The big sales-increasing reveal is going to be Buffy finally finding out that Spike's still alive. The reason why I propose this theory is because Andrew is back. He hasn't been with Scoobies since Damage, because he's always been in Rome. Willow's remark to give him the grand tour indicates that it is his first time he's ever been in their castle. I don't think this is true, because so far their no indication of Spike being involved in the arc or Buffy going out looking for him. And if that doesn't happen, than this reveal doesn't get much resonance. But you never know :)

EndersWrath
03-02-08, 08:37 AM
I'm in crazy theory mode right now, so this should be fun :lol:

The end of all Magick happens with a portal doesn't it? Well I'm thinking that Dawn may be the key (yes PUN!) to that. I mean there is no telling what happened to all that power... maybe it went away with the Portal... or maybe it is just dormant in her. I mean how big of a twist would it be that Dawn would have to sacrifice herself to rid the world of demons and not Twilight himself. Maybe we find out something like that in 8.12? I dunno... I am just mega lack of sleep man.

Did I even make sense? *goes to bed to wake up to a non-coherent post*

vampmogs
03-02-08, 12:04 PM
Nice preview pages.

Renee/Xander is a pretty big spoiler for them to just show us, which makes me think something else might be going on. What if we learn in 8.11 that Renee is the traitor which will make these previews for 8.12 suddenly a little more sinister? It's possible.

And Willow being kidnapped, yeesh. We know she's uber powerful and Warren and Amy could only keep her by using her own power, wonder how these vamps will keep Willow?

stormwreath
03-02-08, 01:22 PM
Just thinking aloud here:
Dawn has been the victim of a nasty magical curse. She's living a miserable life because of it, and none of her friends have been able to break it - which could well lead to some resentment of them. Also, Dawn's the sort of person who's likely to try and solve her problems her own way - especially if her guilt and embarrassment over Kenny means she can't face her friends. And finally, the fact that Dawn is of magical origin has caused her no end of pain and misery in her life - and her sister's magic-originated powers likewise have constantly kept her apart from Dawn.

So - if Dawn discovers that someone is proposing to put an end to magic forever, doesn't she have several excellent reasons to support them? And equally good reasons, founded in shame and resentment, to not tell her friends what she's doing?

vampmogs
03-02-08, 02:21 PM
I think Dawn possibly being the traitor is at least something to consider. Given again what we've seen from the preview pages of 'Wolves at the Gate' it's only further reinstated, just how sucky her situation really is. Though does the end of magic mean she'd be stuck as a giant forever, or that the spell would be reverted and she'd turn to normal size?

More thoughts on the new preview pages;

Anyone else feeling everything is very eerie in these pages? It's a little creepy if you really digest what's going on and imagine it. Cold fog-tastic night, Xander and Renee seeing their attackers but being unaware of the danger, Willow being snatched just as Andrew leaves.. the wolves approaching from the gate. Dawn sleeping outside, unaware of a possible attack.. it's all just very disturbing and rather chilling if you think about how unaware they are to what is going on.

I've always thought one of the most frightening things is when a victim knows or at least is aware of their attacker before actually being attacked. Which is why I find it so chilling Renee and Xander have spotted the wolves, are calmly making chit chat about it.. but are so unaware of the danger :s

And love the line "We've got wolves at the gate."

God I hate when we get preview pages, I'm so excited for this issue and it's not even till next month.. we have to get through 'A Beautiful Sunset' yet, which I'm looking foward to as well, but it kills me we can't have both at once! :lol:

OkinawanSteel
03-02-08, 02:54 PM
Nice preview pages.
And Willow being kidnapped, yeesh. We know she's uber powerful and Warren and Amy could only keep her by using her own power, wonder how these vamps will keep Willow?

I'm hoping that panel turns out to be not a big deal. Maybe whoever that is can be just trying to intimidate Willow, and therefore put the frighteners on the rest of the Slayer organization or something. Willow being attacked or kidnapped, even if it only spans one issue, is not something I want to see so soon after "The Long Way Home"

Could turn out to be anybody though, I suppose. Rogue slayer? Somebody Willow knows from her mystical walkabout? Potentially very interesting, as long as she's not being witchnapped again.

Nostalgia
03-02-08, 05:02 PM
I'm afraid the kidnap road is going to be taken again.. it makes sense if we take into consideration why exactly the gang goes to Tokyo.

For instance, Willow is kidnapped by a vampire, taken to Tokyo.. Buffy and everyone find out, and make a trip there to rescue her. She eventually is rescued early, but they stay there to rid the place of these vampires.

Something to that effect?

I agree vampmogs, it's killing me have two preview pages of two different issues.. and not be able to read both. Although, I do like digesting one first.. I'm actually starting to enjoy the bi-monthly.. it's still such a tease.

I still stick with my theory that Dawn has something to do with the big reveal.. either her being the traitor, with a very good reason as proposed by stormwreath, her dying, or something to the effect of her not being Buffy's sister. I also think that any of these three things would have the biggest impact and would be the strongest thing to "keep us talking for years."

I mean, having Willow become evil has been done before, and having Xander betray Buffy.. it's just.. bleh. Kind of doesn't work in the context of the situation. We've seen so much of Xander.. and we've seen so little of Dawn. As of what we know, Xander has been closer to Buffy than he's ever been in the last couple of years. Now I know that seems traitor-like.. but as Wolfie once pointed out.. if we're going to pull off a surprise, there has to be some kind of clue.. I'm starting to understand that now.

ThePoet's<3
07-02-08, 04:25 AM
Here's a rumor I heard...

The reason they are telling stores to order more is because the big reveal is that OZ is coming back. Especially since the title is called "Wolves at the Gate". Who more appropriate than OZ? With the way he and Willow left things - could it be revenge against Willow?
Anyone else hear that??

vampmogs
07-02-08, 04:59 AM
Yeah that rumour was linked at Whedonesque at one stage too.

Though it's the first I've heard of Oz being an enemy of any kind in the issue. I thought if anything he'd be brought in as someone who could help deal with the vamp/wolf problem.

patxshand
07-02-08, 05:23 AM
Yeah, I highly doubt Oz would return as an enemy. Though it would be an interesting little bit, seeing as Dracula is returning as a friend! Though I do want the Oz-man to be a permanent Scoob, so keeping him good is important to me.

bishopcruz
07-02-08, 10:45 PM
Interesting preview, can't believe I missed it when it came out.

Anyone a little weirded out by the fact that Renee is a lot more forward than usual in this book, she seemed pretty shy previously when dealing with Xander and now moves forward with the 'ask me out!' thing. That and her wearing the same sweater as Xander makes me think that she might be the mole after all. I mean we have very few remaining plausible options, Satsu seems like a no-go, Xander doesn't fit at ALL, not Willow, or Giles, so that leaves Renee, or Dawn. True it could be Rowena, or Leah, but we haven't heard from them in ages it seems.

If she's not and they do go with Xenee, I'd be kinda ticked at once again Xander once again being mainly reactionary in a ship. Oy.