View Full Version : Could Angel have known? *A:AtF Spoilers*
My question is: Could Angel have known that Wolfram & Hart would send LA to hell? Because some people seem to think that was logical. I think that's just because that's what they did and in retrospect it's like "Yeah, they're evil, of course they'd do that, stupid Angel!" But I think it isn't that logical at all, in fact especially Angel had enough reason to believe they wouldn't do anything to the innocent people, at least not like this. Think of the episode "Reprise":
Holland: "Well, this is exciting, isn't it? (Smiles) Going straight to the source. - So, what's the big plan, Angel? Destroy the Senior Partners, smash Wolfram and Hart once and for all?"
Angel: "Something like that."
Holland: "Hm-mm, now tell me just what do you think that would accomplish? In the end, I mean."
Angel: "It'll be - the end."
Holland: "Well, the end of you, certainly. But I meant in the larger sense."
Angel: "In the larger sense I really don't give a crap."
Holland: "Now I don't think that's true. - Be honest. - You got the tiniest bit of 'give a crap' left. Otherwise you wouldn't be going on this Kamikaze mission. Now let me see, there was something - in a sacred prophecy, some oblique reference to you. Something you're supposed to prevent. Now what was that?"
Angel: "The apocalypse."
Holland: "Yes, the apocalypse, of course. - Another one of those. Well, it's true. We do have one scheduled. And I imagine if you were to prevent it you would save a great many people. Well, you should do that then. Absolutely. I wasn't thinking. - Of course all those people you save from that apocalypse would then have the next one to look forward to, but, hey, it's always something, isn't it?"
The elevator shaft and cable dissolve as the elevator continues to plummet into a hellish red glow.
Angel: "You're not gonna win."
Holland: "Well - *no*. Of course we aren't. We have no intention of doing anything so prosaic as 'winning.'"
Holland laughs and for the first time Angel turns his head to glance in Holland's general direction.
Angel: "Then why?"
Holland: "Hmm? I'm sorry? Why what?"
Angel: "Why fight?"
Holland: "That's really the question you should be asking yourself, isn't it? See, for us, there is no fight. Which is why winning doesn't enter into it. We - go on - no matter what. Our firm has always been here. In one form or another. The Inquisition. The Khmer Rouge. We were there when the very first cave man clubbed his neighbor. See, we're in the hearts and minds of every single living being. And *that* - friend - is what's making things so difficult for you. - See, the world doesn't work in spite of evil, Angel. - It works with us. - It works because of us."
And with that the elevator comes to a screeching halt.
The doors open and Angel looks out to see a homeless person pushing a loaded shopping cart across the plaza in front of the Wolfram and Hart Office building in LA.
Holland: "Welcome to the home office."
Angel: "This isn't..."
Holland: "Well, you know it is. - You know *that* better than anyone. Things you've seen. Things you've, well - done. You see, if there wasn't evil in every single one of them out there (Angel watches as some people in the plaza start yelling at each other) why, they wouldn't be people. - They'd all be angels."
The glove drops from Angel's right to land on the floor of the elevator and Angel slowly shuffles out of it.
Holland calling after him as the doors close: "Have a nice day."
After that speech and all WR&H had done before that, it seems actually logical that they'd target Angel and the ones close to him. Those are the ones he cares most about and don't all matter to them anyway. WR&H were always about corrupting people, not killing them let alone send them to hell.
KingofCretins
11-01-08, 09:26 PM
Could have have foreseen that specifically? No. Could he (and did he) reasonably foresee serious consequences? Yes. In fact, he explicitly admitted he expected the Senior Partners to bring their full weight down upon them.
Angel: We do this, the senior partners will rain their full wrath. They'll make an example of us. I'm talking full-on hell, not the basic fire-and-brimstone kind we're used to... 10-to-1, we're gone when the smoke clears. They will do everything in their power to destroy us.
There are theories under which as long as harm itself is reasonably foreseeable, the specific form and scope of that harm is irrelevant.
If you want a reason Angel should feel responsible, it's not because LA was sent to hell. It's because of that scene with Holland Manners in "Reprise". Angel already *knew* that there was no fight with W&H, and that, therefore, grand gestures of warfare were meaningless in opposing them. He *knew* that carrying out his mission that way had brought only failure and despair. In other words, he *knew* there was nothing meaningful to gain by taking out the Circle.
Could have have foreseen that specifically? No. Could he (and did he) reasonably foresee serious consequences? Yes. In fact, he explicitly admitted he expected the Senior Partners to bring their full weight down upon them.
There are theories under which as long as harm itself is reasonably foreseeable, the specific form and scope of that harm is irrelevant.
If you want a reason Angel should feel responsible, it's not because LA was sent to hell. It's because of that scene with Holland Manners in "Reprise". Angel already *knew* that there was no fight with W&H, and that, therefore, grand gestures of warfare were meaningless in opposing them. He *knew* that carrying out his mission that way had brought only failure and despair. In other words, he *knew* there was nothing meaningful to gain by taking out the Circle.
I agree that he is responsible, but less so than he would be had he known that they were gonna do something like this. My problem is the fact that some people I've talked to seem to think it's all his fault. I think fault is the wrong word. I think Angel thought they were gonna attack specificly them, the Fang Gang. WR&H would have the power to take him and the Fang Gang out, only them, not the rest of LA. The reason Angel was fighting WR&H again, even though fighting fighting them was impossible, was, I think, that the CotBT was finally a physical thing he could fight against in WR&H. He thought, if I kill them I could make a gigantic difference. I do think he still made a difference, for the rest of the world though, not LA. (Well for LA too, although not positively). He thought that if he killed the people in the Circle, he could finally weaken WR&H where it does hurt.
I think that Angel could have known that the senior Partners would do something like this. He couldn't know what they would do, but he knew that something would happen (see his speech on the end of season 5). This is the point what makes the NFA plan kind of stupid. It was a nice idea, but Angel is smart enough to know that he has to pay. And to make Angel pay, you hurt what he loves and values the most ... humanity.
Is he resposible? yes he is. He knew what could happen but he didn't thought about it ... Is he the only responsible one? No, his team is also to blame. I think that the whole fang gang is resposible and not just Angel because he made the plan. The agreed, they killed the CotBT and they didn't stop the plan.
I think that Angel could have known that the senior Partners would do something like this. He couldn't know what they would do, but he knew that something would happen (see his speech on the end of season 5). This is the point what makes the NFA plan kind of stupid. It was a nice idea, but Angel is smart enough to know that he has to pay. And to make Angel pay, you hurt what he loves and values the most ... humanity.
Is he resposible? yes he is. He knew what could happen but he didn't thought about it ... Is he the only responsible one? No, his team is also to blame. I think that the whole fang gang is resposible and not just Angel because he made the plan. The agreed, they killed the CotBT and they didn't stop the plan.
It just doesn't seem a very WR&H thing to do. Their motto is "Why kill when you can corrupt/torture." I don't blame Angel for thinking they would take personal revenge, try to kill Connor or something, but sending LA in to hell should come very unlikely for Angel. We stand further away from it all, but I can really imagine Angel thinking that they would just try to kill Angel and his gang, not take the whole of LA with him. It was a rather rash and foolish thing to do, but he couldn't expect such consequences.
I don't know if it a weird thing to do for W&H. In season 2 they told Angel that there was no winning or losing for them. And however the gods can't be beaten, I think they can lose. They wanted to kidnap Connor and Darla, and Angel stopped that, they wanted Angelus and Angel never gave in and I think that the senior partners believed that they had control over Angel ... they owned the vampire who is (probably) the key in the greatest (final?) apocalypse ever.
Their interest in Angel is pretty interesting. They are gods who have power in lots of dimensions. Still, they spend lots of time and money in Angel. They don't want him dead, they want him on their side. I think that Angel is important for them and as long Angel isn't in their power, they can't win. Angel makes the difference in that apocalypse, his side wins (?)*. And I believe because that they want that apocalypse to happen ... if it doesn't happen they lose.
BTW, I don't know if the story in Reprise was a true story, it could be a lie to turn Angel (and the plan worked, Angel gave up in Reprise).
edit:
*: I was thinking about the apocalypse in the Bible. In the 'verse there are already many references to the Christianity. So why not this one.
There are big roles for the Antichrist and the Christ. There will be a fight between those two. What if Angelus is the Antichrist and Angel the Christ? One person who makes the difference because of who he is. It can be a reason why W&H never tried to kill him and why they spend so much time in turning Angel evil.
patxshand
12-01-08, 01:10 AM
I can't see Joss doing a Christian allegory to *that* extent, what with his outspoken atheistic beliefs. And, in response to the main topic of this thread, there is no way in hell (ehehehe) that Angel could have known. Eight seasons worth of character development for that character tell us that he would never allow his city to go to Hell so he could make a stand.
KingofCretins
12-01-08, 01:16 AM
I agree with Pat -- Joss isn't going to go with an overt Christian allegory (although there have been many incidentally Christian overtones to his shows).
But, I have to say again -- Angel *did* know enough to know that his stand wouldn't mean anything, and said as much going in. That alone was reason enough to come up with something different.
I don't know, Buffy does have some similairities with Jesus. But It was just an idea btw, I was trying to figure out why W&H never killed Angel. He must be pretty annoying for them.
And why they didn't do something different ... because their plan wasn't doomed. The idea was making a stand, and they made one. It wasn't smart to do, but I don't know what else you can do against gods in some other dimension.
KingofCretins
12-01-08, 01:47 AM
I don't buy into the Senior Partners being quite that big of a deal. Their biggest weapon against them is Illyria, who presumably actually has some real insights into them (although it was Knox she mentioned that to, and Wes killed him) if they ever realize to ask. No reason to think it would have occured to her to volunteer it.
There may be meaningful ways to oppose them, perhaps even defeat them -- but there are clearly no shortcuts. Angel tried to find one in Season 2 and in Season 5, both with pretty abysmal results for him and those around him.
sueworld
12-01-08, 01:53 AM
I don't know, Buffy does have some similairities with Jesus. But It was just an idea btw, I was trying to figure out why W&H never killed Angel. He must be pretty annoying for them.
From what I gather the reason why they were under strict instructions not to kill him was that they thought they needed him for the coming battle.
They knew about the prophecy of a souled vampire who would pick a side and have great influence on the final outcome. They wanted to shape Angel into being 'their' creature and have him choose the path of evil, rather then of good.
stormwreath
12-01-08, 01:57 AM
All I know is this: *I* never anticipated that the Senior Partners would punish Angel by lashing out randomly at an unconnected group of innocent people. Why would they? W&H are a business; there's no percentage in indiscriminate destruction and carnage.
Unless, of course, destroying the Black Thorn really did wreck all their operations on Earth, so they thought there was no point carrying on and they may as well send the whole place to Hell. Divesting an unprofitable asset, so to speak.
sueworld
12-01-08, 02:01 AM
Well I saw it as the ultimate punishment for Angel. To be surrounded on a day to day basis by the victims of his own 'folly'. A permanent reminder of his failure.
What a great way of beating him and his old team down.
vampmogs
12-01-08, 02:07 AM
Brian Lynch answered a question recently and he said from memory, that no, Angel couldn't have known Wolfram and Hart would do this.
Angel knew that they were going to pay, he made that clear to everyone. He went as far as saying that when the dust clears it is very likely they won't be there. But no I don't think he expected Wolfram and Hart to do this, I actually agree with those saying it is a little OOC for the firm to do such a thing. They were never into big grand gestures, never cared about winning. I think Angel suspected they'd all pay but after they were dead business would resume as usual.
KingofCretins
12-01-08, 02:08 AM
From what I gather the reason why they were under strict instructions not to kill him was that they thought they needed him for the coming battle.
They knew about the prophecy of a souled vampire who would pick a side and have great influence on the final outcome. They wanted to shape Angel into being 'their' creature and have him choose the path of evil, rather then of good.
Generally geekish question, does anyone know exactly when the Shanshu prophecy was sort of retconned to include the Troachlan (sp) prophecy?
The Shanshu prophecy originally said that a vampire with a soul would defeat a lot of demons and fiends and would shanshu, live and die, become human. It was found in the Scrolls of Aberjian, which Angel stole from W&H.
Now, the Troachlan was what introduced the "we don't know if it will be good or evil" element, with the possibility that it might be the ruination of mankind. This is found in the Naiazean prophecy, which is, unless I'm missing an episode, not the same scroll or prophecy.
But, at some point, the Shanshu sort of started to encompass both ideas. When was that?
Storm, I don't think that they were dumping assets, because losing the Circle would have been a global effect, not a local one. Personally, I have always just assumed that their demonic hordes cleaned out the old office and the Partners quickly began installing a new circle.
I don't know about the Shansue, I just assumed that it was one prophecy and that Wesley wasn't that far with translating it in season 1. Where are they mentioning the Troachlan prophecy?
Other question (maybe OT):
What about Spikes role in the apocalypse and shansue? for 4 years Angel was the vampire with a soul, and he is the one who should be the key in the apocalypse and he is the one who would shansue. But now there is Spike ...
vampmogs
12-01-08, 11:00 AM
Other question (maybe OT):
What about Spikes role in the apocalypse and shansue? for 4 years Angel was the vampire with a soul, and he is the one who should be the key in the apocalypse and he is the one who would shansue. But now there is Spike ...
I always saw it as Angel's gig, it just makes sense to me. Angel is the one the PTB chose, the one Wolfram and Hart believed is the pivotal part to the apocalypse, even after Spike was brought back. Angel walked past the Shanshu in 'Blind Date,' stopped and sensed it, he was drawn to it. And then as King points out on an unrelated topic, the Shanshu is related to the Trochlan prophecies, which if I'm not mistaken (might want to check this) related to Connor. To close of a connection there so it makes sense to me.
I never even saw it as a thing that could relate to either vamp. People have stated because Angel signed it away in 'Not Fade Away' it is now Spikes. I never saw it like that, the prophecy IMO was always related to only one vamp, it isn't a contest it has already been decided. So I think you either have to say Spike or Angel, I don't think it is something which is up for grabs to either of them. One of them is destined to be that vamp regardless of the other one being there, I just happen to think that vamp is Angel.
Brian Lynch answered a question recently and he said from memory, that no, Angel couldn't have known Wolfram and Hart would do this.
That's kind of the reason I started the topic, when he said that, it made me think about it again.
Generally geekish question, does anyone know exactly when the Shanshu prophecy was sort of retconned to include the Troachlan (sp) prophecy?
If I remember correctly, I think it was in S3 in the episode where Holtz arrived.
I always saw it as Angel's gig, it just makes sense to me. Angel is the one the PTB chose, the one Wolfram and Hart believed is the pivotal part to the apocalypse, even after Spike was brought back. Angel walked past the Shanshu in 'Blind Date,' stopped and sensed it, he was drawn to it. And then as King points out on an unrelated topic, the Shanshu is related to the Trochlan prophecies, which if I'm not mistaken (might want to check this) related to Connor. To close of a connection there so it makes sense to me.
I never even saw it as a thing that could relate to either vamp. People have stated because Angel signed it away in 'Not Fade Away' it is now Spikes. I never saw it like that, the prophecy IMO was always related to only one vamp, it isn't a contest it has already been decided. So I think you either have to say Spike or Angel, I don't think it is something which is up for grabs to either of them. One of them is destined to be that vamp regardless of the other one being there, I just happen to think that vamp is Angel.
I agree on both accounts. In Season 1 of Angel it was very clear that the prophecy was about him, not only because it talked about a vampire with a soul, but the fact that he was drawn to it and his connection with the powers. Then the other prophecy is added in S3 and Angel is involved with almost all of the things predicted there. Also I don't think that if Angel really lost the shanshu there (which I don't entirely buy, because how can WR&H have any power over that + how in a contract?) it automatically goes to Spike. It's meant for Angel if it is meant for Angel and meant for Spike, if for Spike. But it's not a second prize thing, when Angel quits, Spike becomes the winner and gets it. (or the other way around).
vampmogs
12-01-08, 01:33 PM
Yeah I never quite understood the contract, neat idea but it didn't really work for me. If anything I thought signing the contract in your own blood would be signing yourself to the Shanshu, not the reverse. I'm not really sure how signing the prophecy some how made you incapable of fufilling it. Usually it is the other way with these things, as for example how Lilah had to sign all her contracts with blood at Wolfram and Hart.
Yeah I never quite understood the contract, neat idea but it didn't really work for me. If anything I thought signing the contract in your own blood would be signing yourself to the Shanshu, not the reverse. I'm not really sure how signing the prophecy some how made you incapable of fufilling it. Usually it is the other way with these things, as for example how Lilah had to sign all her contracts with blood at Wolfram and Hart.
I think the signing-away was there for Angel to believe, because he thinks the Circle is all-powerfull and that WR&H had that contract prepared for a long time, because of their plans with him. But I think it's there for us not to believe, but just see Angel giving up what he wants the most for the greater good, which ended on a less greater good note.
vampmogs
12-01-08, 01:48 PM
I think the signing-away was there for Angel to believe, because he thinks the Circle is all-powerfull and that WR&H had that contract prepared for a long time, because of their plans with him. But I think it's there for us not to believe, but just see Angel giving up what he wants the most for the greater good, which ended on a less greater good note.
A lot of people did assume it was fact though, I guess I will too unless it is proven it isn't. But it was a bloody great moment for the character, admist all the bad choices and everything horrible going on I went "Oh that's why this guy is the hero." It was a completely selfless and noble act, made me realise how much I liked the character. So even if we found out he did in fact not cut himself out of the running I wouldn't view the scene any different. The guy still did a pretty amazing thing.
A lot of people did assume it was fact though, I guess I will too unless it is proven it isn't. But it was a bloody great moment for the character, admist all the bad choices and everything horrible going on I went "Oh that's why this guy is the hero." It was a completely selfless and noble act, made me realise how much I liked the character. So even if we found out he did in fact not cut himself out of the running I wouldn't view the scene any different. The guy still did a pretty amazing thing.
It's not that I think it's just a lie from WR&H. To me it's just them using a storyline that had yet to be tied up before the end to show something about Angel. I also don't believe it's just as simple as giving it up. The contract could even be real, but have more to it than just getting rid of the shanshu. I mean it's not like a lottery prize that you can just decline.
bishopcruz
12-01-08, 09:21 PM
Cool thread.
Anyhoo, I agree with those who say that there is no way that Angel could have reasonably foreseen the SP acting like they did in AtF, it goes completely against how they have acted in the past. Angel did thing that there would be hell to pay, but he assumed that it would be W&H taking him and the rest of the MoG out. Them sending LA to hell was so outside the realm of imagining that I don't think he can be held responsible for it, not in the way many people say in any case.
I do think that the death of the Black Thorn hurt W&H a lot though, if it hadn't I don't think they would have bothered sending LA to Hell. The people that the MoG killed were the SP's link to the world, they were those who were both powerful, and connected enough to keep the machine running. With them dead, W&H is in trouble. It's not easy to replace exceptional employees. Heck, can you imagine the havoc it would wreak on a company to lose ALL of it's upper management? It can take years to get things back on track.
As for the Shanshu thing, yeah it is definitely about Angel, and for me, I don't think that he had the ability to sign it away. It could go either way on that one though.
ThePoet's<3
13-01-08, 05:14 AM
Personally I don't believe it will benefit either vampire - unless we are moving toward Fray. Because in *The Apocalypse* all demons and magicks will be destroyed. If Angel is the one fighting on the "right" side of the Apocalypse - which I'm thinking will also be the one Buffy is fighting on - then he will Shanshu and avoid being destroyed. It would be nice to see both vamps Shanshu but I'm sure it will yet be another way for Spike to sacrifice himself heroically (die again.).
In regard to the thread question - did he know - I believe he did - but he didn't entirely believe it. I think he knew he had a very slim chance of making a difference but all it takes is a slim chance for Angel to go to battle. And Spike would just go along for the chance of a good fight.:D
It's like knowing you don't have a chance of getting a job but interviewing for it anyway. There is the slim chance they might change their minds - or something you do or say may make a difference. Angel has been up against a lot of odds - most of them working out for him in the end. This is the first time it didn't quite work out the way he thougt it would - that something would make a difference. However, as we now see - he is rallying the troops and I'm pretty sure we will make it out of Hell-A by the time this story ends.
In the dialogue quoted Angel is told it won't matter whether he wins or loses. W&H (EVIL) will always go on...
sueworld
13-01-08, 06:52 AM
It would be nice to see both vamps Shanshu but I'm sure it will yet be another way for Spike to sacrifice himself heroically (die again.).
Oh he better not *pokes Spike back into his cage with a pointy stick* I've had enough of all that thank you very much. :lol:
KingofCretins
13-01-08, 07:16 AM
With Spike dying, or dying heroically? He's got a chance at making a run at Darla's record of getting killed four times.
During Angel Season 5, I found it more believable that Spike would receive the shanshu, actually, but now I think Joss may just wish he'd never come up with the Shanshu. Or, hadn't come up with a second souled vampire.
sueworld
13-01-08, 07:25 AM
Nobody will recieve the Shashu. For to do that would mean the end of that characters story really.
I couldn't see Joss bothering with a Shanshued Spike or even poor old Angel for that matter.
Spike for a start would hate it with a vengeance, which knowing Joss's sense of humor would mean he'd give it to the poor old devil. :roll:
KingofCretins
13-01-08, 07:30 AM
Spike didn't act like he'd hate it. He sure didn't haul ass out to Nevada to drink from the fake cup because he hated the idea of becoming human again.
He may have wanted to be human again, of course I can't fathom why that would be the case. He sure acted like he wanted it more than Angel though, from the instant he learned of it.
And, maybe the point of the Shanshu may ultimately be to retire a character. My own thought on a very Jossian way to twist hopeful 'shippers waiting for one of them to shanshu is that they'd become human... and remember nothing after they were sired in the first place. The vampire would die and the human would live. So whoever got it wouldn't know her anymore. And she'd cry but be happy for him.
sueworld
13-01-08, 07:41 AM
..or get a terminal illness the next day and drop dead...:roll:
Considering Joss' lack of real interest in either of these characters I don't think I've got anything to worry about. He's going to be too busy 'doing over' poor old Xander by the looks of things. :lol:
KingofCretins
13-01-08, 07:46 AM
Nah, they did the illness angle with Darla already. But it would be completely unlike Joss to actually *do* the shanshu without making it somehow bittersweet, and the most obvious way to do that is to contrive a reason why the newly human vampire can't actually *be* with Buffy.
And Xander finding new and fantastic way's to be the buttmonkey is hardly new. He may be Show's bitch, but at least he's man enough to admit it. I'm actually debating whether you're going to like my next fic or not -- it is dark and pathos laden, which says "yes", but it's also mostly about Xander, which says "no".
sueworld
13-01-08, 07:50 AM
Well unless he's shagging Spike in it, probaly not. :roll:
He may be Show's bitch, but at least he's man enough to admit it.
Ah, now where have I heard that sentiment before? :D
Joss never goes for happy endings, which means he can get rather predictable after a while. Just think of what a character would like the least and Joss will land them with it. :roll:
KingofCretins
13-01-08, 07:55 AM
Ah, now where have I heard that sentiment before?
It seemed well suited. He kinda was show's bitch after Season 2. But, we're way off topic now.
Joss will do happy endings. "Chosen" was essentially a happy ending. "Prophecy Girl" and "Graduation" were essentially happy endings. And those are three of the four season finales which really could have served as series finales. He didn't really do them as much on "Angel", because "Angel" is noir -- which is why I think he probably may second guess the shanshu completely. But I think he'll pay it off. He may even be letting Brian Lynch pay it off. There's gotta be a reason that "After the Fall" is only a mini-series while Season 8 and Season 9 will be in production for almost a decade -- he might be sort of done with Angel's and Spike's and Gunn's and Wes' and Connor's stories.
sueworld
13-01-08, 08:03 AM
The further I get away from Chosen the more I don't see it much as a happy ending.
Obviously for me Spike and Anya hit the dirt, and thousands of innocent women were altered irrevocably overnight.
Not exactly a 'win, win' scenario for me personally.
The further I get away from Chosen the more I don't see it much as a happy ending.
Obviously for me Spike and Anya hit the dirt, and thousands of innocent women were altered irrevocably overnight.
Not exactly a 'win, win' scenario for me personally.
It was a happy ending for Buffy. She got rid of the First, against all odds and she had just made thousands of people who could do her job for her, so she wasn't the only one anymore, well besides Faith, but we know Faith.
sueworld
14-01-08, 12:36 AM
It was a happy ending for Buffy
Trouble is due to the writers having done such a 'stitch up number' on her during that season, I just found myself not caring all that much about her, sadly.
What a change from how I felt at the end of season 5......:(
Could have have foreseen that specifically? No. Could he (and did he) reasonably foresee serious consequences? Yes. In fact, he explicitly admitted he expected the Senior Partners to bring their full weight down upon them.
There are theories under which as long as harm itself is reasonably foreseeable, the specific form and scope of that harm is irrelevant.
If you want a reason Angel should feel responsible, it's not because LA was sent to hell. It's because of that scene with Holland Manners in "Reprise". Angel already *knew* that there was no fight with W&H, and that, therefore, grand gestures of warfare were meaningless in opposing them. He *knew* that carrying out his mission that way had brought only failure and despair. In other words, he *knew* there was nothing meaningful to gain by taking out the Circle.
I missed this thread when it first started up. While I don't think Angel could reasonably have foreseen LA going to hell (cause, really, nobody speculated that was a possible outcome in the time we've had since NFA to think about it), I have always thought his actions in NFA were very dark. As you say, he *already* knew that a fight against W&H was meaningless. He told his team that they would accomplish nothing. So the best case scenario is that Angel led his team into a suicidal battle, killed an innocent, executed Lindsey for the sake of making a gesture. And the 'apocalypse'? Just the world as it is. This wasn't the sort of battle we usually see where you have to take out bad guys in order to prevent the end of the world.
I'm hoping they take on all that darkness. Having LA go to hell on Angel's dime is a good start. But I want to see Drogyn's murder taken up. And Linsey's execution.
Don't get me wrong. I do like Angel. But he has some major flaws. And here they were at their absolute worst. I want him to come back from them. But not in a story that pretends they didn't happen.
vampmogs
15-01-08, 09:59 AM
And Linsey's execution.
I don't think Lindsey was killed just to make a gesture. He was killed because he was a threat and probably always would be. When Lorne states "I've heard you sing" then fires the gun, I'm inclined to think he meant he'd seen his future and it wasn't a good one. Lindsey constantly went back and forth with the whole evil thing, but really had up until that point always come back to evil. And then of course he had an agreement he'd be the one stepping into run Wolfram and Hart.
EndersWrath
15-01-08, 11:22 AM
I'm pretty sure that he thought that worst that was going to happen was that they were all gonna die. I don't think he could have really imagined this.
Anyone else thinking that LA isn't really in Hell (of course there is :p)? I mean realistically, SunnyD going down is one thing...not a huge town...but LA? Seriously?
I'm just hell bent into thinking that it is some sort of other world/dimension type thing that the Fang Gang was thrown into or that they are altering their reality. Or hell if they really are in Hell, then they must have some sort of glamour up to make it look like LA is really still there.
I haven't read issue two yet, so maybe it is said there, but I think that there is more to it than that.
KingofCretins
15-01-08, 02:15 PM
Los Angeles has definitely been relocated to a different dimension -- the sun and moon are out at all hours at once, and Angel and Spike and Gunn are immune to the sun, while poor Nina is just completely messed up.
My solution to the problem that creates in this dimension is that there is basically a glamour around Southern California by the Partners, and LA seems to still be there. There is TV and movies, but nobody can really remember what they are. Nobody feels like visiting. A sort of cloak of disinterest and forgetfulness, if you will.
vampmogs
15-01-08, 02:48 PM
Los Angeles has definitely been relocated to a different dimension -- the sun and moon are out at all hours at once, and Angel and Spike and Gunn are immune to the sun, while poor Nina is just completely messed up.
My solution to the problem that creates in this dimension is that there is basically a glamour around Southern California by the Partners, and LA seems to still be there. There is TV and movies, but nobody can really remember what they are. Nobody feels like visiting. A sort of cloak of disinterest and forgetfulness, if you will.
Yeah I agree. I could see it being one those things when the spell or glamour messes with the mind, like when Halfrek traps everyone in the house. They all want to leave but can't reach open the door, something stops them, they can't explain it but it does. Think it may be the same kind of deal here, people want to go to LA but don't, they don't know why but they just don't. You it's more subtle than being trapped in a house so it doesn't really concern them.
I don't think Lindsey was killed just to make a gesture. He was killed because he was a threat and probably always would be. When Lorne states "I've heard you sing" then fires the gun, I'm inclined to think he meant he'd seen his future and it wasn't a good one. Lindsey constantly went back and forth with the whole evil thing, but really had up until that point always come back to evil. And then of course he had an agreement he'd be the one stepping into run Wolfram and Hart.
I'm just not down with Minority Report style executions. Also not sure when Angel got appointed judge, jury and executioner of morally doubtful humans.
I'm just not down with Minority Report style executions. Also not sure when Angel got appointed judge, jury and executioner of morally doubtful humans.
In a normal situation Angel wouldn't make a decision like that, but given the situation and the fact that Lorne had seen who Lindsey really was and his destiny, I kinda don't have a problem with that. Does that make me a bad person, because I'm not wholly against what he did to those soldier boys in "Conviction" either. And I'm still no 100% against Angel getting those WR&H laywers killed in Reunion, it's just the way he did it all together. I'm not saying that he was right or it's a good thing to kill them. It's just I understand and no one else can give them what they deserve, they can't go to prison, you know.
stormwreath
15-01-08, 11:40 PM
Also not sure when Angel got appointed judge, jury and executioner of morally doubtful humans.It was certainly as early as the first episode of season 5, because he spent a large part of it killing W&H employees. In 'Harm's Way' he was even beheading them in the boardroom...
Wolfie Gilmore
16-01-08, 12:57 PM
I'm just not down with Minority Report style executions. Also not sure when Angel got appointed judge, jury and executioner of morally doubtful humans.
Oh, there was this episode that you must missed, not many people know about it, it's called "Detention without Trial", where Angel gets recruited by the government to hunt down potential criminals. It explains everything...plus, Wesley in an orange jumpsuit, funny! And, after much torture, we discover it was all a hilarious misunderstanding...*
But, fictional episodes aside, no, I'm not down with it either. Can't help feeling that for every ounce of fight and bravery in NFA, there's a couple ounces of despair too.
*Yes, I have been watching too much 24, why do you ask...?
Oh, there was this episode that you must missed, not many people know about it, it's called "Detention without Trial", where Angel gets recruited by the government to hunt down potential criminals. It explains everything...plus, Wesley in an orange jumpsuit, funny! And, after much torture, we discover it was all a hilarious misunderstanding...*
But, fictional episodes aside, no, I'm not down with it either. Can't help feeling that for every ounce of fight and bravery in NFA, there's a couple ounces of despair too.
*Yes, I have been watching too much 24, why do you ask...?
Ha! I've always thought the whole shebang was pretty laced with despair.
My fear coming into the new comics was that the writers didn't really get how very dark they had portrayed Angel. Because if you look at what he's trying to do -- define the world as usual as 'evil' and then fight the 'evil' by assassinating businessmen and politicians, he ends up on the wrong side of history. Usually revolutionaries, for all their good intentions, create chaos and terror. And the 'evil' that is in all of us (lesson which Angel was supposed to have learned back in Reprise) can't be fixed by taking out a few key 'bad guys'. As the US has recently learned, taking out Saddam Hussein doesn't usher in a democratic paradise -- it opens the door to more violence and bloodshed. And much to my delight in the latest comic:
That analogy is explicitly drawn -- when Angel is referred to as "Shock and awe Angel". So now with the LA going to hell and that description of Angel, I'm pretty sure the writers did know just how dark Angel had gotten. It'll be interesting to see how he works out of that dark place.
vampmogs
17-01-08, 05:38 AM
Angel pretty much has to do the shock and awe thing now- he's basically set himself up to do it again with the plan to try and take on all demon lords and get LA back. I couldn't really see a convincing argument supporting the idea that Angel goes back to killing small demons at a time when they are in such a state of urgency now. Sure Angel shouldn't forget the little things, and so far we've seen he's been making the rounds and saving people, but he basically has to make with the big gestures now.
The idea behind 'Reprise' as far as I saw it, was that you should concentrate on the little things and not try and make one big grand gesture. But the longer Angel does that- the long they're stuck in hell and the causalities are just going to mount up. He pretty much has to make this big gesture now if they ever want to get outta hell.
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