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07-02-19, 08:03 PM
https://screenrant.com/ranked-powerful-vampires-buffy-slayer/


Ranked: The Most Powerful Vampires In Buffy
BY ALEXANDRA SAKELLARIOU – ON FEB 07, 2019 IN LISTS

Buffy The Vampire Slayer gave us seven incredible seasons during its run from 1996 to 2003, which was filled with tons of action, adventure, heartbreak, and of course, drama. The show followed high schooler Buffy Summers as she realized her calling as a vampire slayer. And with the help of her trusted friends and supernatural sidekicks, she saved the world. A lot.

Arguably one of the best things about was the array of interesting and dynamic characters that we grew attached to during the show’s run. Joss Whedon has a penchant for making characters who are relatable and witty yet also flawed and complex. Given that the show is about a vampire slayer, it goes without saying that many of these characters were vampires. There was always a vamp hiding around each corner waiting to try their hand at the slayer, but Buffy and the Scoobies always ended up successful. Some of these vampire foes even became their friends (and lovers - well if you’re Buffy).

That’s why we’ve compiled a list of the most powerful vampires from the show. Whether they almost took down the world or just took down another character with their witty comments, we bet you’ll be surprised as to which vampires come out on the top and which ones we consider a flop.

10 THE ANOINTED ONE

We think Spike got it right when he referred to this child vampire as ‘The Annoying One’ rather than ‘The Anointed One.’ Viewers were led to believe this kid was going to be one of the Big Bads of the season and that he was going to pose a serious challenge for Buffy and the Scoobies.

Granted, the kids did lead Buffy to The Master, but that wasn’t the hardest task. In the end, all it took to destroy this vampire was Spike exposing him to direct sunlight, which was a pretty lacklustre way to go, in the grand scheme of themes. It didn’t help that the child acting was pretty cringe-worthy, which is just another reason this vampire was more annoying than powerful.

9 HARMONY KENDALL

Granted, Harmony wasn’t a vampire when we met her. She was sort of like a Regina George knock-off but with half the brains. And while fans may have thought transforming into a vampire at graduation would’ve made Harmony more vicious, she was still pretty much the same Valley Girl afterwards.

There was never a moment that Harmony was truly scary or posed a huge challenge to Buffy and her gang. Instead, even as a vampire, Harmony was more concerned about her looks and her dating life - any vampire that refers to Spike as ‘Blondie Bear’ can’t be too dangerous, right?

Although Harmony may not be the most powerful vampire in the Buffyverse, she’s definitely still one of our favorites, especially thanks to her redeeming arc on Angel.


8 ANNE PRATT

Don’t remember this character? Well, Anne Pratt was the mother of William Pratt, who hard-core fans will recognize as the human version of Spike.

In the sixth season of Buffy, we learn that Spike adored his mother so much that he transformed her into a vampire after he becomes one so that they can be together eternally. However, things go awry quickly. His mom actually starts trying to come onto him in a weird Freudian-inspired way.

Spike quickly realizes it’s the evil of the vampire talking to him, not his actual mom, so he stakes her. Although Mrs. Pratt may not have been the most powerful in the physical sense, that whole scene between her and Spike still leaves our stomachs churned, which is this vampire makes our list.

7 VAMPIRE WILLOW

Fans got insight into what Willow would be like as a vampire during the episodes “The Wish” and “Doppelganger.” Unlike the real Willow, her vampire twin cares next to nothing about anyone. Vampire Willow isn’t afraid to cause chaos wherever she goes and she wasn’t half bad at it, which is why she ends up at #6 on this list.

However, even Vampire Willow wasn’t half as bad as Evil Willow, who the Scoobies come face-to-face with in season five. She almost destroys the world because she’s so heartbroken after the death of Tara (and who can blame her - we’re still not over that!). Many fans believe that Vampire Willow foreshadowed what Willow would later turn into.


6 DARLA

Darla was one of the oldest vampires on the show, having turned Angel who later turned Drusilla who then transformed Spike.

Being the oldest of their group means that she had the most time to hone her skills, which is likely why she was so conniving and evil. With that being said, she never seemed to have much of a chance against Buffy and friends, which is likely why Darla kept running away only to reappear at inopportune times.

Granted, many fans found Darla to be cooler during her stint on Angel, but cooler doesn’t necessarily translate into more powerful.

5 THE MASTER

The Master’s best quality was probably his sharp-witted humor. That could cut a person down to size in an instant - metaphorically speaking. But along with his fruit punch mouth, The Master was also pretty scary and powerful.

Throughout the first season, we were led to believe he was going to fulfill an ancient prophecy and kill the vampire slayer. And technically he did do that. Buffy was dead when Xander and Angel got to her after her run-in with The Master, and it was only because of Xander’s quick-thinking (well, and CPR) that she survived.

Had The Master stuck around to make sure he definitely got rid of Buffy then maybe he would have had a higher ranking on this list. But in the end, this was another Big Bad that Buffy had the final say with.

4 DRUSILLA

Drusilla was a special brand of crazy, which is what helped her seem so frightening. She had an incredible gift of foresight, allowing her to see things before they happened. But she wasn’t the greatest at communicating, so it was hard to tell if she was hallucinating or not.

Her irrationality is what made her so evil. She never had a second thought while causing mayhem - to her it was just a game. She always had inventive ideas for how to cause misery and would throw a tantrum if she didn’t get her way. Plus, she was brilliant in Angel.

Still, Dru’s one weakness was men. She loved both Spike and Angel, which drove her even crazier and ended up foiling most of her plans. Although, we would’ve loved to see more screen time between her and Spike since their banter was next level.

3 TUROK-HAN

The Turok-Han weren’t your average vampires. Rather, we were introduced to these hybrid uber-vamps in season seven when the First Evil was preparing an army filled with them. At first, it appeared almost impossible to kill one of these guys. Buff had a hard time taking on only one of them, which is what made The First’s army of them seem so overwhelming.

However, in the end, it appears the Turok-Han weren’t as powerful as we thought. By the end of season seven, the gang had figured out how to take on these bad boys. While trying to close the hellmouth in the last episode, even the humans with no slayer-abilities were able to off the Turok-Hans left and right, proving they weren’t as powerful as we once thought.

Fans have actually expressed disappointment over the inconsistency concerning the Turok-Hans powers. But we’re just glad the team was able to close the hellmouth!

2 ANGEL

Oh, Angel. When he was good, he was good. But when he was bad, he was really, really bad.

Not only could this vampire be violent and ruthless, but he was also an expert at emotional torture. It drove fans insane seeing the ways he tormented Buffy in season three after he lost his soul. Heck, he literally almost caused the end of the world that season.

Angel went on to do great things on his own spin-off show, proving he’s one of the most powerful and developed vampires in the Buffy verse. Still, move on to our last entry to see why we think Angel deserves spot #2, rather than #1 (sorry, not sorry!).

1 SPIKE

We know that Team Angel fans are probably screaming at their computers right now, but hear us out.

There are plenty of reasons Spike was the most powerful vampire in the Buffyverse. First of all, he was just diabolical in general. When he put his mind to something, he did it. Just think about how he beat The Anointed One with just the snap of a finger, and all the crazy things he and Dru plotted against Buffy. But Spike really began showing how powerful he was later on in the seasons.

He fell for Buffy without having a soul and then went through hell to get it back just for her. Then, it was revealed he was the only one who could wear the amulet, thus sacrificing himself to save the world. Angel originally thought he would be the champion to wear the amulet, but in the end, Spike was the chosen one and he willfully took on the responsibility. And that’s why he’s the most powerful in our books.

Plus, it helps that he’s pretty awesome during his time on Angel, too.

HardlyThere
07-02-19, 08:48 PM
The Master was easily the most powerful vampire...

a thing of evil
07-02-19, 09:08 PM
Um...Dracula? Hello? I can understand why Kakistos or Luke (or the comics vampires) weren't included but come on, the OG vamp belongs on this list!

HowiMetdaSlayer
07-02-19, 09:35 PM
I think based on pure power, the Turok-Han should be #1.

TriBel
07-02-19, 09:44 PM
Personally, I wouldn't put Spike at the top of a list of "most powerful vampire" - and, TBH, unless he was in braggart mode, I don't think Spike would either. Nor do I think he was "pretty awesome during his time on Angel".

bespangled
07-02-19, 09:47 PM
I think either Spike or Angel could have taken on a Turok-Han and won. And when Spike and Angel fought, Spike won. I would put Darla above the Master. He was probably the one with the most latent power, but it was latent. Because he preferred to stay underground, and then got stuck, his power couldn't really be used.

HardlyThere
07-02-19, 09:56 PM
Personally, I wouldn't put Spike at the top of a list of "most powerful vampire" - and, TBH, unless he was in braggart mode, I don't think Spike would either. Nor do I think he was "pretty awesome during his time on Angel".

He would if he were writing a clickbait article.

KingofCretins
07-02-19, 11:43 PM
Yeah... I think this article is going more for sentimentality than "power", certainly not in a mythological sense. Spike is badder than the average bear in those terms, because they built up the Master's line as being particularly impressive, the Order of Aurelius, etc. But the Master, Kakistos, that's more the "top shelf" vampire in terms of power, expanded abilities, difficulty to kill.

Stoney
08-02-19, 12:49 AM
Wow, I'm always going to be dubious about the quality of an article that believes that 'hardcore' fans will be the ones that remember who Anne Pratt was, that doesn't get episode titles right (I mean, Doppleganger?) and talks about Angel causing havoc losing his soul in S3. :p I mean, mistakes happen and all, and sure we're the uber fans, but this is also about basic editing. And then we get to the justification of Spike being listed No.1 because "it was revealed he was the only one who could wear the amulet", which isn't what happened. It couldn't only be him. They could have considered the fact that he eventually fought Angel and won and beat two slayer perhaps if they wanted to make an argument for him being the most powerful, but what they gave really is weak justification.

I'd have said The Master because age generally means increased power in a way that I think is established and with his thrall too and the whole non-dusting skeleton, I think The Master was formidable. But all the Aurelian vamps were presented as being really tough in an 'above the average bear' kind of way.

bespangled
08-02-19, 02:15 AM
Yeah... I think this article is going more for sentimentality than "power", certainly not in a mythological sense. Spike is badder than the average bear in those terms, because they built up the Master's line as being particularly impressive, the Order of Aurelius, etc. But the Master, Kakistos, that's more the "top shelf" vampire in terms of power, expanded abilities, difficulty to kill.

I could never understand how Kakistos could be so powerful with those hands. In what evolutionary sense do pig feet benefit a creature that stands upright? There's reason behind how life evolves and clearly vampires evolve - that's part of the mythos. So why a vamp lose three fingers and get large hoofs instead of claws that could actually be useful?

@Tribel - of course he would put himself as number one. That doesn't make it accurate. But I think he really believes he can tackle any challenge, and I doubt he would name anyone as stronger than himself. And Spike was awesome in ATS - just not awesome in every scene. Then again, I am a Spangel fan.

HardlyThere
08-02-19, 02:28 AM
Apropos of little, I have always wondered if the Master and his kiddies had some level of animal magnetism. It was perhaps inadvertent that they all seemed to have had some level of hold over victims. Both Darla and Dru more or less seduce Liam and William. You have Jesse (presumably turned by Darla), who somehow gets Cordy to dance with him despite her abhorrence of him. Spike lolls his victims in S7.

bespangled
08-02-19, 06:33 AM
Spike lolls his victims in S7. Huh? I am old and this newfangled speakage confuses.

Lawson and Holden Webster seem to manage pretty well, too.

vampmogs
08-02-19, 12:12 PM
It's inconsistent but the mythology generally attributes a vampire's power to how old they are ("The Master is as old as any vampire on record. There's no telling how powerful he'll be once he reaches the surface") so, based on that, The Master would be the most powerful vampire. He managed to kill Buffy twice. In Prophecy Girl he uses his hypnosis but is then bested in a fight but in The Wish he's able to render Buffy momentarily motionless from one punch and then swiftly snaps her neck. No other vampire on the show can boast that.

If we go on age then, technically, the power ranking out of the Order of Aurelias would be;

- The Master
- Darla
- Angel
- Drusilla
- Spike

But I don't think the show is all that consistent on this. The Fanged Four all seem to be pretty evenly matched. There's periods of time where the vampires are considered more powerful (Angel states Darla is stronger than him when she's pregnant) but overall I could see fights going either way. For instance, I don't see episodes like Destiny as proof that Spike is more powerful than Angel because the episode explicitly states that it's the first time Spike has ever won against Angel ("He beat me Gunn. For the first time, he won the fight... ") so it doesn't make sense to me at all to attribute Spike's one win out of many losses as proof that Spike is more powerful. We saw in episodes like In The Dark that Angel dominated Spike very convincingly. What I do think it proves is that Spike can win which is important and I think further supports the notion that Angel and Spike are evenly matched and that a fight could go either way. Angel should technically be stronger (he's older than Spike even without the 100+ added years of Hell on top) and, maybe he is, but as shown when Spike has bested Slayers, being stronger or more powerful doesn't necessarily guarantee a win at all. In Fool For Love Buffy is dominating the punk vampire very convincingly until she slips up and he manages to stake her. Likewise, in Helpless Buffy is toying with the vampire until she gets a case of the dizzies and he too almost stakes her through the heart.

I imagine that the reason The Master's age makes him so much stronger than the other vampires is because there's possibly thousands of years between him and most other vampires he comes across. Whereas the age difference between the Fanged Four, whilst sometimes a couple of centuries apart, probably isn't all that much in vampire years.

It also doesn't help that the Buffyverse is really inconsistent on the characters strengths/abilities and that a vampire's strength (much like a Slayers) changes on a whim or is dictated by whatever the budget is of the time. For instance, Buffy makes short work of Darla in Welcome to the Hellmouth but based on her appearances in Angel this doesn't seem at all consistent with her strength or abilities. Likewise, during the parking lot fight in In the Dark Angel more or less toys with Spike and knocks him around really easily but this is during a period of time in the verse when Angel was portrayed as a dashing hero and Spike was portrayed as a very comical villain. In early Buffy Season 1 & 2 Angel is then shown struggling with basic fledgling vampires like in When She Was Bad or Halloween but the more heroic and central to the show he becomes (and then as the menacing Big Bad) his strength and fighting abilities increase substantially. Likewise, when Spike first appears on the show in Schoolhard as an imposing and threatening villainthe other vampires can't even land a punch on him. But then in episodes like Bargaining I he can't beat two regular vampires in the cemetery without the aid of the Scoobies and the gang can't rely on him to protect the town whilst Buffy's dead the way Angel protects LA or Spike's later depicted to be a heroic Champion in Angel Season 5. And then of course there's the Turok Han who are infamous for how inconsistent their power is when Buffy struggled to kill just one but suddenly brand new baby Slayers, Spike and Anya, Giles and Wood are dusting them with relative ease. And what did Whedon say? Yeah the criticisms are valid but he didn't care because he cared more about the emotion of the story then the internal logic of the verse. Basically, the character's strengths are dictated by the plot. It's hard to establish a pattern that is consistent or logical.

Stoney
08-02-19, 01:36 PM
I hasten to say, when I suggested the article would be better to have used Spike having beaten Angel and killed two slayers to justify putting him first, I wasn't meaning to suggest that was good reason to rate him No.1 or would have been a strong argument, I was saying it would have been better than putting him first because he was the only one who could wear the amulet, which isn't even true.

I actually put The Master as stronger and very much agree with your reasoning that age is shown be significant for vamps and about the fanged four being relatively evenly matched. Spike wasn't seen to easily/regularly beat Angel, quite the contrary, it just wasn't impossible he could. The article is based on scant facts/understanding. I'm afraid it reads as yet another hastily thrown together by someone who doesn't know/remember the details well. But it's true there are inconsistencies as strength follows plot needs fairly regularly. I still think it is fair to say a vamps age has repeatedly rang true as a defining aspect of strength/capability, even if it isn't always 100% consistent.

flow
08-02-19, 03:25 PM
vampmogs
Angel should technically be stronger (he's older than Spike even without the 100+ added years of Hell on top) and, maybe he is, but as shown when Spike has bested Slayers, being stronger or more powerful doesn't necessarily guarantee a win at all

You are right, but Angel has spent almost hundred years of this time without (much) fighting. If I remember correctly, there was a fight with a demon at the Hyperion once and he was, of course, on his WWII mission, although that didn`t imply much fighting either. That`s why I think, he is now more evenly matched with Spike than before the curse. Spike is younger and maybe not as powerful or strong, but he is better trained.

Of course it is possible, that Angel has been fighting constantly, while being in the Acathla hell. But we don`t really know anything about those years, so it`s also possible, he did not fight at all there.

As for The Master - I always hesitate to call him powerful, because being trapped kinda nihilates the powerful thing for me. It is true though, that he was shown to be very powerful in the Wishverse.

Drusilla is introduced to us as a very weak vampiress because of her illness. Although she later recovers, I never saw her as particularly strong or a fighter. If the thrall counts as being powerful, she is of course powerful in her own ways. But to me that seems a bit like cheating.

The Annointed one doesn`t belong on the list at all. Did we ever see him doing anything powerful?

Buffy couldn`t kill Dracula. That really shoould put him right on top.

That`s my list:

1. Dracula
2. Lotos
3. Darla
4. Angel/Spike
5. The Wishverse Master
6. Kakistos
7. Kralik
8. Penn
9. Luke
10.Drusilla


flow

HardlyThere
08-02-19, 05:02 PM
Spike lolls his victims in S7. Huh? I am old and this newfangled speakage confuses.

Lawson and Holden Webster seem to manage pretty well, too.

We see him manage to lure at least one woman into the typical dark alley scenario and bite them.

- - - Updated - - -


vampmogs

You are right, but Angel has spent almost hundred years of this time without (much) fighting. If I remember correctly, there was a fight with a demon at the Hyperion once and he was, of course, on his WWII mission, although that didn`t imply much fighting either. That`s why I think, he is now more evenly matched with Spike than before the curse. Spike is younger and maybe not as powerful or strong, but he is better trained.


And then puppet!Angel pretty much cleans up on Spike. Destiny is about Angel's emotional state, not his abilities as a fighter. It was about him acknowledging he didn't want that destiny anymore. He says as much. You can liken it to The Freshman. Buffy struggles with Sunday when she's down in the dumps, but once back on her feet, she takes her out rather easily. Same with Spike in THLoD. Once she's back in Buffy mode, it's not much of a fight, even with the Gem.

I put the Master at the top simply because he's the only vamp, aside from Drac, to have magical dexterity. But one could argue he fits in the same category as Sunday. Once Buffy gets over her issues, she throws off the thrall and dusts him without a ton of fanfare.

bespangled
09-02-19, 02:21 AM
vampmogs I don't see episodes like Destiny as proof that Spike is more powerful than Angel because the episode explicitly states that it's the first time Spike has ever won against Angel ("He beat me Gunn. For the first time, he won the fight... ") so it doesn't make sense to me at all to attribute Spike's one win out of many losses as proof that Spike is more powerful.

This is why I am thinking Spike is more powerful - NOW. Power is mutable as you show in your post. Betwee the time of In The Dark and Destiny Spike was chipped. Becuase he could no longer hurt humans he fought a crap ton of demons which are acknowledged to be far stronger opponents than humans (or why would they need a slayer?) After Spike ritually stakes Angel in the arm they decide to have it out in a fight that is possibly to the death. Spike won - and he won with incredible ease. It may be the first time he won but at this stage he is more powerful that Angel in battle.

Part of this is simply that Spike exists for the battle - the joy of fighting. It's not a coincidence that the two women he fell in love with were able to beat him down. He could win against both, but it was never a gauranteed win. Angel sees the big picture. He'll fight when he has to but his strength is tactics. He does not look for a chance to go back against the wall with only fists and fangs.

Then again, who can win a fight really isn't necessarily the only factor of who is the most powerful.


flow

You are right, but Angel has spent almost hundred years of this time without (much) fighting. If I remember correctly, there was a fight with a demon at the Hyperion once and he was, of course, on his WWII mission, although that didn`t imply much fighting either. That`s why I think, he is now more evenly matched with Spike than before the curse. Spike is younger and maybe not as powerful or strong, but he is better trained.


I'd say he's a better fighter because his raison d'etre is fighting. For five years he's had to prove himself against a lot of opponents with different strengths and weaknesses, and that is good training. Angel can fight extremely well but he has a much broader way of dealing with opponents, and he's better at planning ways to win without a punch-up. Spike says it himself - "The fight is coming. We both feel it... things are going to get ugly. And that's where I live."

TimeTravellingBunny
09-02-19, 11:50 AM
vampmogs

You are right, but Angel has spent almost hundred years of this time without (much) fighting. If I remember correctly, there was a fight with a demon at the Hyperion once and he was, of course, on his WWII mission, although that didn`t imply much fighting either. That`s why I think, he is now more evenly matched with Spike than before the curse. Spike is younger and maybe not as powerful or strong, but he is better trained.

Of course it is possible, that Angel has been fighting constantly, while being in the Acathla hell. But we don`t really know anything about those years, so it`s also possible, he did not fight at all there.

As for The Master - I always hesitate to call him powerful, because being trapped kinda nihilates the powerful thing for me. It is true though, that he was shown to be very powerful in the Wishverse.

Drusilla is introduced to us as a very weak vampiress because of her illness. Although she later recovers, I never saw her as particularly strong or a fighter. If the thrall counts as being powerful, she is of course powerful in her own ways. But to me that seems a bit like cheating.

The Annointed one doesn`t belong on the list at all. Did we ever see him doing anything powerful?

Buffy couldn`t kill Dracula. That really shoould put him right on top.

That`s my list:

1. Dracula
2. Lotos
3. Darla
4. Angel/Spike
5. The Wishverse Master
6. Kakistos
7. Kralik
8. Penn
9. Luke
10.Drusilla


flow

I like a lot of your arguments, but I don't understand how you could possibly rank Darla, Angel or Spike above Wishverse Master. Or Darla above The Master in general. If we're going by season 1, the Master was easily the most powerful vampire for multiple reasons, while Darla was his minion who appeared as afraid of him as all the others minions. Yes, Buffy managed to kill him rather easily in Prophecy Girl the second time they met, but that was another instance of weird inconsistency in power and it's never been explained how she could do it and resist thrall, after he so easily defeated her and kept her in thrall underground

But physical power is not the only element of power, not remotely For the Master, another factor besides thrall and physical power was his pseudo-religious status and the awe other vampires had of him.

In those terms, the Anointed One had some power, too - because the others were giving him power. He had power in the same way that a child king has power over their subjects. But it was an insufficient and tricky kind of power, since it didn't mean a thing once someone who didn't care about rituals came along.

In terms of sheer abilities, Dracula is definitely no 1, followed by the Master and Lotos.

Another thing to consider is that there is a difference between potential power/ability and whether the vampire actually uses it. Drusilla has the potential to be one of the most powerful vampires due to her power of thrall, which very few vamps have. But she doesn't really seem interested in being a leader - she is always letting another vamp take charge, as she is a follower by nature - and left to her own devices, she doesn't seem to try to do big things, like end the world or kill Slayers (even though she can kill one with ease, as we saw with Kendra), and we don't hear about her going anything more notable than a garden variety vampire.

Also, Spike may not be particularly powerful in vampire terms, but he made up for it by being brave, determined and liking to take risks. And similarly, Angel is probably not incredibly technically powerful, but he made up for it by being extraordinarily vicious, calculated and determined.
Darla did not show any special power in BtVS S1, but she was way more pragmatic than most vamps and smartly brought guns against the Slayer. Something that I think, realistically, many vampires would be doing (,the fact they don't is another thing in the verse that makes little sense).
.

TriBel
09-02-19, 01:18 PM
In the sixth season of Buffy, we learn that Spike adored his mother so much that he transformed her into a vampire after he becomes one so that they can be together eternally. However, things go awry quickly. His mom actually starts trying to come onto him in a weird Freudian-inspired way.


a) sigh...it's S7 not S6 and b) sigh...it's not simply Freudian inspired - it's text book Freud - as is his relationship with Angel, as is Angel/Angelus, Liam/Angel/Angelus/Liam's father. There's nothing weird about it. The only weird thing is the fact that an unconscious desire is spoken. One could argue that Buffy's sacrifice in The Gift was also a "return to the mother".


I think either Spike or Angel could have taken on a Turok-Han and won. And when Spike and Angel fought, Spike won.

I'm not so sure - I think in a one-on-one there's every chance a Turok-Han could take either. However, if they're fighting as Spangle :p then the odds would be drastically shortened. Spike and Angel have a shared language and a shared personal history. They "know" each other (and yeah - I'll give you "know" in the biblical sense if it rocks your boat :lol:). The Turok-Han seem to respond to the First but don't interact with each other. They seem to have no notion of "symbols" (aren't they immune to crucifixes?) and language - spoken or written IS symbolic. It's part of the Caveman/Astronaut argument. Cavemen would win if there was a small number - astronauts if it's a large number. A shared language not only allows for communication and planning but also enables the illusion of a shared history and the construction of a common cause. You can't die for a country without language to create the necessary fictions that enable nationalism. See Sapiens and why Neanderthals died out.


Yeah the criticisms are valid but he didn't care because he cared more about the emotion of the story then the internal logic of the verse. Basically, the character's strengths are dictated by the plot. It's hard to establish a pattern that is consistent or logical.

I can't say that verse logic particularly bothers me but there could be more of a pattern than you're assuming. I'd say that lack of confidence or lack of self belief plays its part and that the inverse could be true. Too much over confidence and the character is setting themselves up for a fall. Spike in SH for example, is over confident. He places too much trust in himself and his past and doesn't anticipate anything different. At the beginning of Lessons Buffy makes a similar assumption about patterns of behaviour - it's not until later her past catches up with her. As we progress through the series, past/history/self and other belief frequently overlap.

I'd want to know what they mean by "powerful" - strong (in mind/body) or having access to power?

vampmogs
09-02-19, 02:19 PM
This is why I am thinking Spike is more powerful - NOW. Power is mutable as you show in your post.

It is, but then as HardlyThere points, out later in Season 5 puppet Angel manages to beat Spike in submission. He leaves Spike bloodied and on the elevator floor. In You're Welcome their brief fight also ends with Angel body slamming Spike to the ground ("Touch Cordelia again *picks Spike up off the floor and body slams him to the ground* it will be our very last rematch") and in Power Play Angel manages to take on Spike and Wesley, Gunn and Lorne and win. Spike clearly won in Destiny but Angel undeniably comes off best in all their fights/tussles throughout the remainder of Season 5. So to me all that proves is that there's a 50/50 chance of either vampire winning in battle.


Between the time of In The Dark and Destiny Spike was chipped. Becuase he could no longer hurt humans he fought a crap ton of demons which are acknowledged to be far stronger opponents than humans (or why would they need a slayer?)

I agree that logically this should be the case but I'd argue that Spike is actually depicted as being weaker as Buffy progresses rather than stronger. As I said in my initial post, in Bargaining I Spike is unable to take either vampire on alone in the cemetery and he needs the help of the Buffybot and the Scooby Gang to defeat them. There should have logically been no reason that the Scoobies couldn't have relied entirely on Spike's muscle to defend Sunnydale seeing as how he's shown as being a formidable opponent to both Slayers and Angel. And yet the sumo-sized vampire isn't fazed by Spike's attacks and batters him around (until Spike relies on him being preoccupied with attacking Giles and sets the vampire on fire) and then the second vampire manages to batter him to the floor and the Buffybot comes to the rescue. I think it's obvious that they de-powered him as they needed to show the importance of Buffy being resurrected to defend Sunnydale but his fighting abilities are a far cry from how menacing and formidable he was depicted as being when he was a villain pre-chip.

Buffy is certainly more formidable than either vampire but if Angel was able to be LA's Champion and defend the city then Spike really should have been able to defend Sunnydale without requiring the Scoobies to tag along and help him. He should have been dusting vamps the same way Angel was in City Of when he took out the 3 vamps in the opening teaser.


After Spike ritually stakes Angel in the arm they decide to have it out in a fight that is possibly to the death. Spike won - and he won with incredible ease. It may be the first time he won but at this stage he is more powerful that Angel in battle.

I definitely wouldn't say that Spike won with incredible ease. Both Angel and Spike were a battered and bloodied mess after that fight and even Gunn states that "if you ask me it looks like [Angel] gave as good as [he] got." Nevertheless, whilst Spike absolutely did win that battle I don't necessarily see it as an indication of power. Both Xin Rong and Nikki Wood were undoubtedly more powerful than Spike but he still beat them. A physically weaker opponent can best a stronger and more powerful opponent for various reasons and winning a fight doesn't necessarily mean you're more powerful. Technically, since it's text that a vampire becomes stronger with age Angel should be more powerful than Spike and in Destiny he actually overpowers Spike when they battle for control;

SPIKE
I guess this means she was thinking about you all those times I was puttin' it to her

Angel gets angry. Angel grabs Spike's writs. Spike resists but Angel pries Spike's hands off him and punches Spike in the face and throws him across the room.

If winning against your opponent automatically means you're more powerful than that means the Punk Vampire in Fool For Love would be more powerful than Buffy despite the fact she's outclassing him throughout the fight and despite the fact that regular human Riley defeats him in mere moments. That would then technically mean that Riley is more powerful than Buffy and we know that's certainly not the case.

A weaker opponent may beat a more powerful opponent simply because they're a better/more skilled fighter or because of external circumstances. It may even be a case like in The Freshman when Sunday completely outclasses Buffy in a way even Faith never could because of Buffy's emotional crisis at the time. Likewise, Destiny actually explores the idea that Angel feels lost as a Champion/hero since joining W&H and that this contributed to his loss ("he wanted it more"). Which doesn't mean that Spike still didn't win fair and square but just that their emotional headspaces at the time were definitely a huge factor.

So if we're asking strictly whose more powerful I think logically that would be Angel. That's based purely on the fact that he's an older vampire than Spike. Who's the better fighter or even who would in a fight are two different questions entirely, IMO.

MikeB
09-02-19, 05:32 PM
All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.




https://screenrant.com/ranked-powerful-vampires-buffy-slayer/



That’s why we’ve compiled a list of the most powerful vampires from the show. Whether they almost took down the world or just took down another character with their witty comments This is simply another list that isn't consistent regarding what it means by "most powerful". Nonetheless, the list can be valid if (1) you disregard Season 8 and Season 9 and (2) if you place the Turok-han in last place instead of 3rd.

The Turok-han was simply muscle for the First Evil.

My general thoughts can be found in this thread: http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?19836-Overall-power-rankings-of-beings-good-and-bad-including-the-PTB-WR-amp-H-etc .


I'll probably go through the ScreenRant list and the posts in this thread later.

bespangled
09-02-19, 09:22 PM
I'm not so sure - I think in a one-on-one there's every chance a Turok-Han could take either. However, if they're fighting as Spangle :p then the odds would be drastically shortened. Spike and Angel have a shared language and a shared personal history. They "know" each other (and yeah - I'll give you "know" in the biblical sense if it rocks your boat :lol:). The Turok-Han seem to respond to the First but don't interact with each other. They seem to have no notion of "symbols" (aren't they immune to crucifixes?) and language - spoken or written IS symbolic. It's part of the Caveman/Astronaut argument. Cavemen would win if there was a small number - astronauts if it's a large number. A shared language not only allows for communication and planning but also enables the illusion of a shared history and the construction of a common cause. You can't die for a country without language to create the necessary fictions that enable nationalism. See Sapiens and why Neanderthals died out.

I'd want to know what they mean by "powerful" - strong (in mind/body) or having access to power?

Consider my boat rocked! :bounce::happydance:

We must sometime do a thread about cavemen vs astronauts that parses out exactly what the category of cavemen compromises. As for Neanderthal, we absorbed them. If you're a redhead then you have a larger amount of Neanderthal DNA. As someone who used to teach this stuff - which I dearly love - it's been fascinating this last decade to see the information we've discovered (since some biases were discarded). So it appears that homo habilis, homo erectus, neanderthal and homo sapien were all extant at the same time and swapping DNA. Who knew? Clearly not anthropologists 20 years ago. :noidea:

How about the Pleistocene era - things have settled down by then. Any group that lives together in a cooperative manner has some form of shared language. My contention would be that a group of humans able to communicate and cooperate well enough to consistently bring down mastodons and mammoths would be able to kill off some pesky unarmed astronauts.


@vampmogs It is, but then as HardlyThere points, out later in Season 5 puppet Angel manages to beat Spike in submission. He leaves Spike bloodied and on the elevator floor. In You're Welcome their brief fight also ends with Angel body slamming Spike to the ground ("Touch Cordelia again *picks Spike up off the floor and body slams him to the ground* it will be our very last rematch") and in Power Play Angel manages to take on Spike and Wesley, Gunn and Lorne and win. Spike clearly won in Destiny but Angel undeniably comes off best in all their fights/tussles throughout the remainder of Season 5. So to me all that proves is that there's a 50/50 chance of either vampire winning in battle.


What happened in the elevator is up for interpretation. The door was closed. Given that Angel told Harmony to give Spike a car, I'd say a deal was brokered. Of course I hate the Chuckie movies. He's a doll, fergodsake - grab him by the hair and throw him into a garbage disposal. So I refuse to believe a small felt puppet can beat anyne who isn't willing to lose.

As for Power Play, that was a battle of tactics. Angel is the tactician, as I pointed out. He sees the big picture. Spike is more like Buffy - hand me an axe and point me in the right direction.



Buffy is certainly more formidable than either vampire but if Angel was able to be LA's Champion and defend the city then Spike really should have been able to defend Sunnydale without requiring the Scoobies to tag along and help him. He should have been dusting vamps the same way Angel was in City Of when he took out the 3 vamps in the opening teaser.

Uhm...Angel was LA's champion, when it suited him. You could even argue that locking lawyers in a wine cellar with Darla and Dru was a way of cleaning up the streets. But he really didn't singlehandedly keep the streets of LA clean of vampires and demons. As I recall he had a crew of humans working with him and they didn't win every battle. Are we really gonna compare every fight the two have against demons during their run on the two shows?


I definitely wouldn't say that Spike won with incredible ease. Both Angel and Spike were a battered and bloodied mess after that fight and even Gunn states that "if you ask me it looks like [Angel] gave as good as [he] got." Nevertheless, whilst Spike absolutely did win that battle I don't necessarily see it as an indication of power.

I specified after Spike staked Angel in the arm, and they agreed to "finish this".

ANGEL
(scratches Spike's chest with his sword)
How's it feel?

SPIKE
(scratches Angel's chest with his sword)
You tell me.

Spike kicks Angel repeatedly in the gut, and the wood fragment Angel was holding goes flying into the air. Spike kicks Angel to the ground, grabs the wood fragment from the air, and rears back in a staking motion. He pauses for a moment, then drives the stake into Angel's body, causing him to scream in pain. Spike stands, looks down at Angel, revealing that he drove the stake into Angel's shoulder. Angel lets his face slip back into human form.


If winning against your opponent automatically means you're more powerful than that means the Punk Vampire in Fool For Love would be more powerful than Buffy despite the fact she's outclassing him throughout the fight and despite the fact that regular human Riley defeats him in mere moments. That would then technically mean that Riley is more powerful than Buffy and we know that's certainly not the case.

That's kinda what I said - which is why it surprises me that you're listing cherry picked bits from the constant competition between Spike and Angel.


A weaker opponent may beat a more powerful opponent simply because they're a better/more skilled fighter or because of external circumstances. It may even be a case like in The Freshman when Sunday completely outclasses Buffy in a way even Faith never could because of Buffy's emotional crisis at the time. Likewise, Destiny actually explores the idea that Angel feels lost as a Champion/hero since joining W&H and that this contributed to his loss ("he wanted it more"). Which doesn't mean that Spike still didn't win fair and square but just that their emotional headspaces at the time were definitely a huge factor.

And back to the fighting. If Angel was not in the proper headspace then he screwed up and got his ass whipped because of it. The entire first part of the season is dealing with Angel's guilt and determination to make even more amends after he sold his crew down the river to make life easier for Connor. Hypothetical redoes don't count, though. You can't really argue that in a perfect world where Angel has no doubts he would have won.


So if we're asking strictly whose more powerful I think logically that would be Angel. That's based purely on the fact that he's an older vampire than Spike. Who's the better fighter or even who would in a fight are two different questions entirely, IMO.

Not sure of your logic here. Your post seems to have two messages - Angel can clearly beat Spike any time he really wants to in your opinion. And whoever can beat the other doesn't matter because fighting isn't relevant.

TriBel
09-02-19, 10:25 PM
bespangled:


We must sometime do a thread about cavemen vs astronauts that parses out exactly what the category of cavemen compromises. As for Neanderthal, we absorbed them. If you're a redhead then you have a larger amount of Neanderthal DNA. As someone who used to teach this stuff - which I dearly love - it's been fascinating this last decade to see the information we've discovered (since some biases were discarded). So it appears that homo habilis, homo erectus, neanderthal and homo sapien were all extant at the same time and swapping DNA. Who knew? Clearly not anthropologists 20 years ago.

How about the Pleistocene era - things have settled down by then. Any group that lives together in a cooperative manner has some form of shared language. My contention would be that a group of humans able to communicate and cooperate well enough to consistently bring down mastodons and mammoths would be able to kill off some pesky unarmed astronauts.

Don't confuse me...my understanding of history goes like this: stone/iron/bronze age...mumble, mumble...Tudors & Stuarts, some Georges, a Victoria, some more Georges, the Queen...me. :lol: Actually, it was something I read in Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind (and Harari's "brief" isn't as "brief" as mine). I think he actually gives an optimum number for a Neanderthal group - above that they'd lack the necessary coherence to function as a group in a complex engagement because they don't have the facility of storytelling/history/sharing of experience etc. I thought it paralleled the Cavemen/Astronaut argument. The advantages are summarised in this (and you're welcome) :D:

ANGEL
Right there.
(looks at a large tree)
You wanna bet that's the entrance to the Deeper Well?

SPIKE
Either that, or Christmasland. Do you ever have any fun?

In a flash of light, armored men wielding swords rush out of the tree, growling.

ANGEL
I'm about to.

SPIKE
And they even brought us weapons. Strategy?

ANGEL
Just hold my hand.

Spike raises an eyebrow, but reaches out to take Angel's hand.

SPIKE
(nods)
St. Petersburg.

ANGEL
Thought you'd forgotten.

bespangled
09-02-19, 10:44 PM
Now you're just trying to turn me on :D
It's working.

Unless that book was written in the past year or two - well, it turns out everything we thought we knew about neanderthal was completely wrong. They actually did have speech, storytelling, a larger brain capacity than homo sapiens and they never went extinct. They just shared their genomes to the point where there was no pure genome left.

I adore history, but not as much as I adore Spangel!

vampmogs
12-02-19, 09:21 AM
What happened in the elevator is up for interpretation. The door was closed.

I'd be extremely interested to see how anyone could objectively interpret Spike as having won this fight;


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpbagkZuJsw

We hear a struggle and punching from behind the door, Angel snaps and calls Spike a "limey bastard" before we hear a loud thump, and the door opens to reveal Spike, dazed, bloody and on the floor. It's safe to say that Angel won that fight and judging by the numerous comments on the Youtube video I'm certainly not alone in seeing this. It is ridiculous but, hey, it happened.


As for Power Play, that was a battle of tactics. Angel is the tactician, as I pointed out. He sees the big picture. Spike is more like Buffy - hand me an axe and point me in the right direction

I don't disagree. He still came off best in the fight, though.


But he really didn't singlehandedly keep the streets of LA clean of vampires and demons. As I recall he had a crew of humans working with him and they didn't win every battle.

There's numerous scenes of Angel fighting vampires and demons alone without Angel Investigations backing him up the same way there's numerous scenes of Buffy fighting vampires and demons without The Scoobies backing her up. Nevertheless, I think you've missed my point. My point is not that Spike isn't as capable of a fighter as Angel. My point was that Spike should have been able to dust the vampires in Bargaining I far more easily than he did and that his depiction in those episodes (and Season 5-6 overall) is inconsistent with how threatening he was portrayed in his villainousness days or how capable he was portrayed in Angel Season 5. It wasn't a dig at Spike. It was a dig at the inconsistency of the shows. When they wanted Spike to be a menacing villain no regular vampire could lay a hand on him (see Schoolhard) but when they didn't want to undermine the loss of Buffy they weakened him so that the loss of a Slayer felt important. They wanted the Scoobies to come across as if they were struggling without a Slayer around - it doesn't really quite work if Spike's picking up the superpowered slack as easily as he logically should have been capable of doing.


Are we really gonna compare every fight the two have against demons during their run on the two shows?

There'd be no point. Angel was the protagonist of his own show for 5 years. His list of battles, opponents and victories is far greater than Spike's by virtue of the fact that he was main character whereas Spike was a supporting cast member (who couldn't overshadow Buffy in her own show, either). Obviously Angel's battles are more extensive just by default. I don't think it says anything about them.


That's kinda what I said - which is why it surprises me that you're listing cherry picked bits from the constant competition between Spike and Angel.

If we agree that winning a fight doesn't automatically equate to being the most powerful then I still don't understand how Destiny is proof of anything. All it proves is that Spike can win a fight against Angel.


And back to the fighting. If Angel was not in the proper headspace then he screwed up and got his ass whipped because of it.

Sure. As I've said, Spike won the fight fair and square.


Not sure of your logic here.

My logic is pretty sound. Winning a fight does not mean you are automatically more powerful than your opponent. That has been proven *repeatedly* throughout both shows. Examples;

- Slayers are more powerful than vampires. That's a *fact* and is shown and stated numerous times. Yet Spike won against two Slayers.
- Buffy was more powerful than the Punk Vampire in Fool For Love but he still beat her.
- The Punk Vampire was more powerful than Riley but Riley beat him.
- Glory was more powerful than Buffy but Buffy beat her.
- Faith was more powerful than Sunday and yet Faith never managed to beat Buffy the way Sunday beat Buffy

So, the fact that Spike beat Angel in a fight in Destiny is not necessarily proof that Spike is more *powerful* than Angel - which is what the topic of the thread is asking. Power =/= winning a fight.


Your post seems to have two messages - Angel can clearly beat Spike any time he really wants to in your opinion.

I've stated repeatedly that I think a fight between Angel and Spike is 50/50 and could go either way.


And whoever can beat the other doesn't matter because fighting isn't relevant.

It's relevant it's just not proof of power. And even if it were, it still wouldn't make sense to base this entirely off Destiny because, as actually stated in the text, Destiny was the first fight Spike had *ever* won against Angel and Spike doesn't win any of their future fights *after* Destiny, either. If Spike had won all their fights after Destiny then, sure, I could understand if people thought the scales had now permanently tipped in his favour and Spike was more powerful/had surpassed Angel as a fighter. But he doesn't win in You're Welcome, he doesn't win in Smile Time, and he doesn't win in Power Play. If you had two boxers in a ring and out of 100 fights Boxer A had won 99 and Boxer B had won 01, nobody would logically say that 1 fight made Boxer B the superior/more powerful boxer and ignore the 99 other times he lost both before *and* after to Boxer A.

flow
12-02-19, 09:40 PM
vampmogs
We hear a struggle and punching from behind the door, Angel snaps and calls Spike a "limey bastard" before we hear a loud thump, and the door opens to reveal Spike, dazed, bloody and on the floor. It's safe to say that Angel won that fight and judging by the numerous comments on the Youtube video I'm certainly not alone in seeing this. It is ridiculous but, hey, it happened.


Maybe puppet!Angel is more powerful than Angel? Or maybe Spike was laughing his ass off so hard, he simply couldn`t fight back? ;)

TimeTravellingBunnies:
I like a lot of your arguments, but I don't understand how you could possibly rank Darla, Angel or Spike above Wishverse Master

Thank you! I have to admit, that I was not really sure, what to do with the Wishverse!Master. He is probably more powerful than Darla, Angel or Spike, but he is from a different dimension, which means, he can`t really be compared to any of them (or any other vampires on my list). I should not have included him on the list.

flow

Dipstick
12-02-19, 09:42 PM
I don't have any dog in the "Who's stronger- Spike or Angel?" fight. If anything, I'd like it to be Angel because I like the logic that age confers strength on vampires. However, I believe Puppet!Angel didn't win the Smile Time fight. The fight starts with Spike demanding a new car in his standard bicker-match with Angel where Spike demands some kind of perk and Angel denies him and is grumpy. We don't see the fight in the elevator but yes, Spike is kneeling on the door while Angel walks out but then, Angel begrudgingly/unhappily asks Harmony to get Spike the car that Spike originally requested. I interpreted this to mean that Angel whispered to Spike in the elevator "Act like I won, and you can have your car." There was time for Angel to do that in the scuffle and we wouldn't have seen it/heard it because the audience is "placed" outside the elevator. Angel was very embarrassed by his new puppet form. I think he had motive to bribe Spike with a car so that he still seemed like Tough C*ck of the Walk CEO Mega-Vamp to the gawking W&H employees checking out the fight.

However, my theory isn't dispositive of strength. Logically even if Puppet Angel had vampire strength for a puppet, Spike has tremendous height and weight over Puppet Angel and probably harder limbs than felt puppet limbs.

HardlyThere
12-02-19, 10:12 PM
vampmogs

Maybe puppet!Angel is more powerful than Angel? Or maybe Spike was laughing his ass off so hard, he simply couldn`t fight back? ;)


A loss is a loss. There are mitigating factors in all of these things. That is the root of the discussion. When writers think this stuff up, they care more about what it says about the character's mindset than Marciano/Ali speculation. Fury and DeKnight actually got into a fight over who should win in Destiny. Fury won because the point was not who would win, but to show how off-course Angel was. It is his show.

Puppet!Angel beating Spike was a joke.

flow
12-02-19, 10:15 PM
HardlyThere

Puppet!Angel beating Spike was a joke.

That`s, what I was trying to say.

flow

bespangled
12-02-19, 11:27 PM
It's relevant it's just not proof of power. And even if it were, it still wouldn't make sense to base this entirely off Destiny because, as actually stated in the text, Destiny was the first fight Spike had *ever* won against Angel and Spike doesn't win any of their future fights *after* Destiny, either. If Spike had won all their fights after Destiny then, sure, I could understand if people thought the scales had now permanently tipped in his favour and Spike was more powerful/had surpassed Angel as a fighter. But he doesn't win in You're Welcome, he doesn't win in Smile Time, and he doesn't win in Power Play. If you had two boxers in a ring and out of 100 fights Boxer A had won 99 and Boxer B had won 01, nobody would logically say that 1 fight made Boxer B the superior/more powerful boxer and ignore the 99 other times he lost both before *and* after to Boxer A.
I think pretty much everyone here agrees that Puppet Angel vs Spike was a visual gag, and not a battle. Spike got the car he wanted, so I'd say he won. I don't really see where you believe the interactions you've listed are battles won or lost. I said that Spike was more powerful that Angel after he easily beat Angel in Destiny - and I also said Then again, who can win a fight really isn't necessarily the only factor of who is the most powerful.

Spike can and did whip Angel's ass - and it was marvelous!:p

TriBel
12-02-19, 11:35 PM
Don't you think it's telling that Angel is MORE powerful as a puppet (ie. when somebody or something else is pulling his strings) than he is when he's left to his own devices (and his own self-belief)? Just asking for a friend...

bespangled
12-02-19, 11:43 PM
Don't you think it's telling that Angel is MORE powerful as a puppet (ie. when somebody or something else is pulling his strings) than he is when he's left to his own devices (and his own self-belief)? Just asking for a friend...

A question that goes to the real nature of power!

My response - does Angel have any time when he is not having his strings pulled?

vampmogs
13-02-19, 12:15 AM
I said that Spike was more powerful that Angel after he easily beat Angel in Destiny - and I also said Then again, who can win a fight really isn't necessarily the only factor of who is the most powerful.

This is contradictory. You use Spike beating Angel as proof he’s more powerful but then state winning a fight isn’t nescessirly the only only factor - and yet it’s literally only factor/evidence you’re using to say Spikes more powerful. So which is it? :headscratch:

TriBel
13-02-19, 12:23 AM
A question that goes to the real nature of power!

My response - does Angel have any time when he is not having his strings pulled?

That was on my mind when I posed the question. Perhaps it's one of those paradoxical situations - like "the only way to be outside of ideology is to admit you're inside ideology"? So, perhaps the way to escape the fear you're someone's puppet is to actually be a puppet - to embrace your "puppetness"?:rotf: I think this could become a thing.

bespangled
13-02-19, 09:02 AM
This is contradictory. You use Spike beating Angel as proof he’s more powerful but then state winning a fight isn’t nescessirly the only only factor - and yet it’s literally only factor/evidence you’re using to say Spikes more powerful. So which is it? :headscratch:

At the time everyone was talking about power in physical terms. I gave my opinion of their physical power.

Then I brought up that there other ways of defining powerful. Actually, I had started out by saying that the Aurelians had more power because they each have strengths that compliment their physical power. IMO, Spike recognized that when he decided to follow Angel in season 5, IMO. Angel is a tactician who sometimes misses the obvious. Spike sees the details Angel misses but the big picture stays hazy. They were predators together. They know each others strengths and weaknesses intimately. Spike cedes power to Angel and backs him up. Feel free to say Angel has more power because of that.

We all use different elements to quantify powerful. I believe that Darla, Dru, Angel and Spike are all equally powerful.

Was I really that bad when I first wrote on this thread? I'm sorry - sometimes I can be hard to follow. I swerve unexpectedly in conversation as well - or so I'm told.

- - - Updated - - -


That was on my mind when I posed the question. Perhaps it's one of those paradoxical situations - like "the only way to be outside of ideology is to admit you're inside ideology"? So, perhaps the way to escape the fear you're someone's puppet is to actually be a puppet - to embrace your "puppetness"?:rotf: I think this could become a thing.

You might have something there. It was after Smile Time that things went to hell, ad Angel decided to cut the strings. Hmmm. This could be a viral movement - embrace your inner puppet! :roll: