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Priceless
02-10-18, 10:38 AM
It seems to me that at the end of the comic series, Andrew Wells achieves everything The Trio set out to do. He's incredibly wealthy, he consults with governments, he has access to hi-tech equipment, weaponry and Giles offers him a leadership role with the Watchers Council.

Andrew get's the happiest ending of he whole cast. Is this really deserved? Is Joss trying to say something deeper about the state of the world, where the Andrew's of the world profit from war and misery? Is there a deeper meaning in the Andrew story? Is he the only one who appears to achieve his dreams?

Willow from Buffy
02-10-18, 10:52 AM
No girls, no gorillas and no jet pack.

But I see what you're saying. It was funny when he was sent as the Scoobies' emissary to Wolfram and Hart, but I like him best as the confused lost boy with too much to atone for.

Stoney
02-10-18, 11:04 AM
Andrew has been given a lot of leniency for the awful things he has done, but he isn't on his own in that. I think they have looked to show him repent and grow since S6, although obviously in fits and starts as it has very much been slotted in or run alongside the main cast stories. I don't remember him being so technology savvy originally as they have had him able to be in the comics. They seemed to want to pass on all The Trio's capabilities on to him in order to be able to use him as this 'Q' type character, and he seems to function in that role well to me. I think acceptance is the main thing that Andrew was looking for, always, being appreciated for what he can bring and what he can do, not being belittled and bullied. So yes, I think he has found a great deal of what he wanted in the group at the end. But then I think they all have that with each other, rather than him being singleoutable (what a shock, that's not a real word!). At the end I think we can see all of the group as surrounded by people they love/care for and in a position to take their lives in multiple directions as they will. So the potential of the current or new opportunities and choices is there for them all and that's a great place to be and could be looked on enviably for many people.

TriBel
02-10-18, 12:31 PM
It seems to me that at the end of the comic series, Andrew Wells achieves everything The Trio set out to do. He's incredibly wealthy, he consults with governments, he has access to hi-tech equipment, weaponry and Giles offers him a leadership role with the Watchers Council.

Andrew get's the happiest ending of he whole cast. Is this really deserved? Is Joss trying to say something deeper about the state of the world, where the Andrew's of the world profit from war and misery? Is there a deeper meaning in the Andrew story? Is he the only one who appears to achieve his dreams?

Oh for goodness sake! He turns up in a van painted with a figure that looks remarkable like the Western Exterminator logo. This figure first admonishes and then appears to stake "pussies". Go figure (the logo's moved on from killing vermin). Andrew - The Storyteller* - has a device that allows him to "select" which voices can be heard and eliminate any "ambient" unintended or background noise"**. Plus he turns up "waving his gun" (in a season that's all about "Staffs" and power) and alludes to that well-known feminist "Bond" (sark). Both Spike and Angel warn about evil entering...The Major alludes to The Shining (where evil is already present)...I could go on.

Stoney


At the end I think we can see all of the group as surrounded by people they love/care for and in a position to take their lives in multiple directions as they will.

...is one way of looking at. For me...they're trapped in a suburban garden (just because you can't see the fence doesn't mean it isn't there). Both "suburbs" and "the garden" are important metaphors in American Culture (the Garden's foundational and existed as a trope before Europeans "found" the New World). Isn't Suburbia "hell" in Angel? The discourse seems to be changing - not sure it has for Whedon: https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6215779&t=1538477362532

It's a "fairy story" ending..."fairy stories" were once cautionary tales. I'm inclined to quote from the Giles mini: "Living life is Heaven's Hell." :sadwalk:

*Storyteller = Writer.

**ambient - relating to or denoting advertising that makes use of sites or objects other than the established media (e.g. by placing slogans on the back of bus tickets). Whedon's always relied on the "ambient" to add an alternative layer of meaning.

Willow from Buffy


No girls, no gorillas and no jet pack.

Plenty of girls (quite possibly Handmaidens to the Gods), Gates...and what's with Buffy and the falling?


Priceless: I've just seen a really positive review of "Giles" here: :D http://fanbasepress.com/index.php/press/reviews/item/8877-giles-3-4-comic-book-review-heaven-s-hell

...and I'm still far too angry to comment further on The Reckoning. :cussing:

a thing of evil
02-10-18, 12:55 PM
Andrew get's the happiest ending of he whole cast.

I don't know, does he, really? Xander and Dawn have each other, a home, baby daughter, it's the whole happily ever after thing. Willow is a leader of a powerful organization she basically created AND the biggest witch around AND most likely rolling in money as well. I mean, her entire arc is about the acquiring of power, her ending is pretty much flawless. Giles is a leader of the council which is probably a big deal for a watcher. Yeah, when you look at the vampires - you know, what? No. They're still vampires. They're still gonna live forever with superpowers and whatnot and Angel has a new girlfriend so I think they're pretty good. Faith went from a villain loner type to a hero, with real friends, she's probably happier now than she's ever been. As to Buffy?

Yeah, Buffy deserved better. And Fred. Definitely Fred. But that's about it, so, no, I don't agree with you. I don't think that Andrew's ending stands out.

Stoney
02-10-18, 01:47 PM
I agree ATOE that we're being shown a sense of satisfaction in their endings, but I think I can see how it's intended without exceptions. Trying to put aside my subjective ideas of what they should want, Fred chose to enter the fight and was shown to have the ability to assert herself over Illyria, to influence her. So presumably she was very much on board up to and including the decision to go into the portal. And Buffy is shown as happy with the potential of what she has in front of her, which covers all fronts of family, friendship, slaying, work and romance. In not giving a final conclusion it's left on the potential for her choices and on the possibility of changing them too. Her story started with feeling bound by duties, constricted by roles, expectations and frustration at not being able to control and balance different factors of her life. At the end we're presented with her taking choices and integrating/balancing the factors in her life proactively. She's been given the space and ability to take the 'me' that's her constant and feel that she can define her life surrounding it into a cohesive whole. Or that's what I'm currently taking as the intention.

I know what you are saying TriBel about the ending being in a suburban garden but in not being up on the rooftops they are integrated more to daily life as well as staying connected to the supernatural and each other. I think the connectivity of it all is where it's supposed to feel that achievement has been made. I don't know. It isn't that I loved the season/ending and there are most definitely ways I would rather it had gone. But I'm just doing what I always do and taking what we're given and trying to see the paths and what was intended to feel happy with some understanding of the story for the characters as is.

TriBel
02-10-18, 03:11 PM
I know what you are saying TriBel about the ending being in a suburban garden but in not being up on the rooftops they are integrated more to daily life as well as staying connected to the supernatural and each other. I think the connectivity of it all is where it's supposed to feel that achievement has been made. I don't know. It isn't that I loved the season/ending and there are most definitely ways I would rather it had gone. But I'm just doing what I always do and taking what we're given and trying to see the paths and what was intended to feel happy with some understanding of the story for the characters as is.

It's not just Andrew. In terms of The Reckoning's ideology, I MIGHT have serious problems with all of it. I think it's possible to read it as a utopic, happy ending. However, if I look at it awry, or find its point of anamorphosis, I see a very different story (symbolised by the looks of trepidation on the faces of Buffy, Spike and Angel in the frame immediately before they enter the garden). If I'm meant to read both along the grain and against the grain simultaneously (so in fact, see alternative universes occupying the same space) then I'm okay with it. From this double perspective, it's not badly written: on the contrary, I think there's every chance it's clever (also ethical and truthful). However, if it's been sold to me solely as a "happy ending" by someone who's waved the feminist flag on every corner for the last 20+ years then I'm done with it. :down:

MikeB
02-10-18, 05:19 PM
All caught up.

All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.




* I've always said one of the odd things about BtVS S6 is that Warren Meers could have become a (multi-)billionaire military contractor.


* I agree that comparatively Willow Rosenberg did very well and that Buffy got shortchanged.


* Faith was literally better off as Giles's heir. Being a cop is a huge downgrade.


* Angel is likely largely essentially alone again. Where was Connor and Gunn in Season 11 and Season 12?


* Regarding Spike, it depends on what is canon but...

He's likely still alive in the time of flying cars. He still has: Drusilla, Morgan, Maria Harley aka Spider, and Harmony Kendall. All attractive immortals. Beck may have longevity as one of her attributes. The bugship could return. He has Spider and Co. in the future.

So, Spike is still the most privileged being in the Buffyverse.



However, I maintain post-Season 9 cannot be canon.

Priceless
02-10-18, 06:52 PM
Priceless: I've just seen a really positive review of "Giles" here: http://fanbasepress.com/index.php/pr...-heaven-s-hell

Thank's for this. Their thoughts on Giles are very much like my own. This is Giles facing his ingrained views about vampires and demons and having to question those views. It's also good to hear someone else fall in love with Roux, just as I have.