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Priceless
28-09-18, 08:22 PM
For those who don't know, there are a lot of people on youtube who post videos of themselves watching tv shows. They are called Reactioners. They are incredibly popular. One of the most popular is After Show Reactions, who has over 7 thousand followers. She is watching Buffy and Angel and has a few followers on the forum. Here is her first video, from only December last year, so she's only been doing it for 9 months and is already upto Season 6.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQLYST0JzXE&list=PL3iO1RKxrqbYqz0v9uhx7hOjWQJME2FCq

Silver1
28-09-18, 08:44 PM
Here's a direct link to her channels front page.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvE2ptzGJ8zGp5f0JvfJcMQ

As you can see she covers a lot of other shows too including Angel.

TimeTravellingBunny
29-09-18, 10:50 AM
ASR' reactions are great. She is doing Buffy and Angel in parallel since S4/S1.
Another great Buffy reactor is van, but she's been releasing videos a bit more slowly lately. She is in late season 3. There's also TheMinarus (S3), Liam Duke (he is in S2, and has just seen WML2), Bbangerang, JustArvin (also S2) and Anything Petersen Reacts, who's still in S1
But some of them have been releasing videos a bit more slowly. ASR is almost always on schedule, and at least releases 4 Buffyverse videos a week.

Buffy seems to be the most popular finished/past show for people to suggest for reactions (other than maybe Lost), and the popularity of these videos and the number of people who comment on them is a testament how strong the Buffy fandom still is, after all these years.

KingofCretins
29-09-18, 11:28 AM
ASR (Shannon) is a cherry blossom, pace Malcolm Reynolds. My only occasional annoyance is when she pauses episodes to ask questions (I assume on her discord) and I'm like "... or just watch the episode and find out". She just got through Tabula Rasa on her patreon side, the musical reaction was fantastic because she had managed to never have heard there even was one, so seeing the credits and overture and launching into "Going Through the Motions" was this study in bewilderment and realization. And she basically imploded at the ending of course -- can't wait for "Smashed" on that count on one hand but can't wait for "Seeing Red" on that count on the other.

I really am glad to see these reactors out there that all were basically infants or just dirty thoughts when the show came out watching it and really appreciating it.

TimeTravellingBunny
29-09-18, 12:34 PM
ASR (Shannon) is a cherry blossom, pace Malcolm Reynolds. My only occasional annoyance is when she pauses episodes to ask questions (I assume on her discord) and I'm like "... or just watch the episode and find out". She just got through Tabula Rasa on her patreon side, the musical reaction was fantastic because she had managed to never have heard there even was one, so seeing the credits and overture and launching into "Going Through the Motions" was this study in bewilderment and realization. And she basically imploded at the ending of course -- can't wait for "Smashed" on that count on one hand but can't wait for "Seeing Red" on that count on the other.

I really am glad to see these reactors out there that all were basically infants or just dirty thoughts when the show came out watching it and really appreciating it.

What's wrong with pausing videos to ask questions? That's one of the things I appreciate about ASR, and also JuliDG (another great reactor, who, unfortunately, isn't doing Buffy), they always pause videos when they want to make any comment. There are some other reactors who just talk during the video and end up missing lines of dialogue or important information, because they talked right over it. And then they don't understand things, because they didn't pay enough attention when they should have. That especially happens with those that do group reactions. Some of those are pretty frustrating, and then people in the comments have to tell them "This is what actually happened, this is what was actually said, you would know if you were paying attention instead of talking over the episode".

Silver1
29-09-18, 01:12 PM
What's wrong with pausing videos to ask questions?

Maybe because she seems to do it so often, and that in reality she only has to carry on watching the thing to have her questions answered.


can't wait for "Smashed" on that count on one hand but can't wait for "Seeing Red" on that count on the other.

I'm dreading both because I think given her past viewing she's not going to cope with it very well.

TimeTravellingBunny
29-09-18, 03:09 PM
Maybe because she seems to do it so often, and that in reality she only has to carry on watching the thing to have her questions answered.



I'm dreading both because I think given her past viewing she's not going to cope with it very well.

But we're watching the videos to see people's spontaneous reactions, right? So why would you prefer reactors to stay silent and not say anything? Seems to beat the purpose.

Silver1
29-09-18, 03:17 PM
So why would you prefer reactors to stay silent and not say anything?

Okay, point to my comment where I said that.

I don't know how many reactors you watch, but yes, most make comments but not quite way she does. And particularly not aimed at such obvious questions.

She just comes across to me (yes, obviously JUST me) as very immature for her age.

Priceless
29-09-18, 04:23 PM
Just want to add to what others have said about Liam Duke. I really enjoy his reactions too, though I haven't watched everyone. I might have posted this before, but I really enjoyed his Halloween reaction because he obviously enjoyed it so much


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-kgNFuw9pw&index=6&list=PL1FYEVeTeb-Msuh5CW6TqmXXo0qZhRs0u

Silver1
29-09-18, 04:25 PM
Yeah, I follow him and Van. :D

KingofCretins
29-09-18, 07:02 PM
What's wrong with pausing videos to ask questions? That's one of the things I appreciate about ASR, and also JuliDG (another great reactor, who, unfortunately, isn't doing Buffy), they always pause videos when they want to make any comment. There are some other reactors who just talk during the video and end up missing lines of dialogue or important information, because they talked right over it. And then they don't understand things, because they didn't pay enough attention when they should have. That especially happens with those that do group reactions. Some of those are pretty frustrating, and then people in the comments have to tell them "This is what actually happened, this is what was actually said, you would know if you were paying attention instead of talking over the episode".

I guess it's because... we didn't get to, right? We had to just watch it play out. I kinda prefer my reaction watches to emulate the live viewing experience. It's already changed somewhat by the fact they can binge -- she took some crap for not immediately doing "The Body" on schedule, I thought it was stupid that people couldn't remember WE ALL had to wait a week in winter 2001, so why couldn't she?

Also, do you seriously see no margin between "literally stopping the program to ask questions to discord" and "watching in silence without reacting"?

- - - Updated - - -


Yeah, I follow him and Van. :D

I watch all three of those and TheMinarus too. Nice variety of perspectives.

You are probably right, "Seeing Red" is going to be as hard for her as any episode yet has been I suspect. It's probably one the best structured episodes for shaking up an audience ever, since it gives you with plenty of time left what you think will be the big shock of the episode and then shows you you don't know what shock is.

TimeTravellingBunny
29-09-18, 10:49 PM
I guess it's because... we didn't get to, right? We had to just watch it play out.
And that's relevant because...?


I kinda prefer my reaction watches to emulate the live viewing experience.
So you want them to pretend they don't know people will be watching their videos?


Also, do you seriously see no margin between "literally stopping the program to ask questions to discord" and "watching in silence without reacting"?

Yes. I see the margin of "talking over the episode", as some reactors do - which is by far the worst option.

And I still don't understand why you have a problem with her stopping the episode. You've already seen the episode, you know what happens in it.

DanSlayer
30-09-18, 05:32 AM
Thanks for these everyone. Buffy/Angel, Lost and Avatar/Korra. At this rate I could spend an entire work shift just watching YouTube reactions. With Avatar going live action on Netflix and Buffy possibly rebooting, these reactors can probably do some kind of old vs new reactions soon enough.

Stoney
30-09-18, 10:01 AM
I'm dreading both because I think given her past viewing she's not going to cope with it very well.

As in she's very anti Spike, anti Spike/Buffy or just doesn't deal well with emotionally heightened moments??

flow
30-09-18, 10:09 AM
She is absolutely in love with Spike. That will be the problem. The higher you fly, the deeper you fall. She might get over the AR but the emotional impact the moment it happens will be huge.

flow

TimeTravellingBunny
30-09-18, 10:12 AM
As in she's very anti Spike, anti Spike/Buffy or just doesn't deal well with emotionally heightened moments??

She adores Spike - he is her favourite character, loves Spike/Buffy (even though she also loved Buffy/Angel), and loves Willow/Tara. And she gets very emotional.

Her OMWF reaction (the latest Buffy one) was great, especially since she knew it was a special episode, but not that it was a musical, and you should see her reaction at the end!

Silver1
30-09-18, 10:20 AM
As in she's very anti Spike, anti Spike/Buffy or just doesn't deal well with emotionally heightened moments??

As the others here have said she loves Spike....for the moment. After events in season 6 I'm not so sure how she's going to go. She still professes a love of Bangel now and again, so depending on how thing pan out we'll see If she's revert to that pairing.

Yes, imo she does seem to overreact now and again, but then I suspect thats part of the exaggerated responses that all Youtube reactors do. Some more then others though. :)

Remember these people are posting these for views, subs and money via patron. So for some It's the equiveralnt of 'dancing for cash'. Got to put on a show dont'cha know. :lol:

flow
30-09-18, 10:24 AM
I actually have to go back and watch her reaction to Angel snapping Jenny‘s neck again. She is still Bangely but I think, she cooled down a bit after that.

Stoney, you should really watch her reaction to OMWF.

flow

SpuffyGlitz
30-09-18, 11:37 AM
Stoney, you've gotta watch her reactions! It's totally worth it! :p I've only watched a few of her reactions so far - (Out of My Mind is also worth a watch just for her reaction at the end! and some other episodes in s2 and s3 as well as Into the Woods). I completely love her. Her reaction to OMWF is just delightful (she had managed to never have heard that it was a musical, or know anything that happens..but she'd heard it was a landmark episode.) Her commentary is interesting - she reacts in a heartfelt, spontaneous way to each episode (she's genuinely watching each for the first time). I think you'll enjoy it. :heart:

Stoney
30-09-18, 11:38 AM
I don't tend to ever watch these (I'd rather watch the show myself or talk about it) but I might take a look at the OMWF one if it is really entertaining.

Who knows re: Seeing Red flow. I remember reacting a lot as someone who was unspoiled for the show, but it didn't stop Spike being my favourite character. I just wanted to see where it was going to go afterwards. Perhaps it depends on how much she has fallen into believing too much in what he would/could achieve soulless and whether that 'spoils' his arc for her or if she stays invested in what comes next for him. How pleased she is by the end of Grave would also be pretty indicative of her viewpoint along those lines.

The only other time I have ever watched a 'reactor' video was when I was told it was a must to see Mark's reaction to Seeing Red as he was someone who was unspoiled and adored Tara.

vampmogs
30-09-18, 01:29 PM
After Shows Reaction is pretty much the "perfect viewer" in terms of how the writers probably hoped the majority of viewers would react. She both loves Bangel and she loves Spuffy and she's emotionally invested in both of them whenever they're on screen which is, after all, I imagine what the writers had intended. She also seems to have a healthy love/affection for pretty much every character. The only character she outright hated was Riley but other than that, she is pretty much a writer's dream.

She should also be the envy of a lot of fans, IMO. It must be far more rewarding to be able to watch the series and love whatever you're viewing in the moment (regardless of ship/character/season) which is sadly not all that common in fandom. People seem entrenched in their sides.

SpuffyGlitz
30-09-18, 01:42 PM
She also seems to have a healthy love/affection for pretty much every character. The only character she outright hated was Riley but other than that, she is pretty much a writer's dream.
She should also be the envy of a lot of fans, IMO. It must be far more rewarding to be able to watch the series and love whatever you're viewing in the moment (regardless of ship/character/season) which is sadly not all that common in fandom. People seem entrenched in their sides.

I don't think this is all that rare? I mean, when I watched Buffy, that's pretty much how I reacted to it too? And there's no character I really disliked either, except for Riley in As You Were/certain scenes, but even then I liked him early on quite a lot when he was courting Buffy, and again in S7. And I still enjoy early seasons Bangel, with my favourite episodes being Angel (and maybe Surprise.)

Stoney
30-09-18, 02:36 PM
I don't think this is all that rare? I mean, when I watched Buffy, that's pretty much how I reacted to it too? And there's no character I really disliked either, except for Riley in As You Were/certain scenes, but even then I liked him early on quite a lot when he was courting Buffy, and again in S7. And I still enjoy early seasons Bangel, with my favourite episodes being Angel (and maybe Surprise.)

This is mostly true for me too. I enjoyed Bangel in the early seasons and then loved Spuffy later. I liked Riley when he first appeared, although I was never keen on the relationship between him and Buffy I still found it interesting. I suppose I was pretty lukewarm towards Xander and Tara/Tillow when I first watched it. I definitely appreciate them more now. But I'd definitely say I generally found the whole show enjoyable, start to finish.

flow
30-09-18, 03:22 PM
I just re-watched her reaction to Passion. She was crying from the very moment Giles walked up the stairs to his appartement til the end of the episode and she said later, even if they somehow restore his soul, it`s not going to bring Jenny back.

That might be a sign, that she is going to be very emotional about the AR and Tara``s death in Seeing Red. It also might be a hint, that getting a soul won`t undo the crime that has been done unsouled for her. But on the other hadn she forgave Angel. We will see, how it turns out.

For me watching her reactions is reliving the first time I saw the show. It is actually better than that, because I didn`t watch in chronological order and I knew about many spoilers - including the AR - before I watched them on screen.

vampmogs
She should also be the envy of a lot of fans, IMO. It must be far more rewarding to be able to watch the series and love whatever you're viewing in the moment (regardless of ship/character/season) which is sadly not all that common in fandom.

I have seen that too but I believe, that you will always, wherever you are, find people who focus on hating something instead of liking something. They seem to be very active in fandom (not just in BtVS fandom) but that might be due to the fact, that the internet is such a wonderful place to express your hate without any consequences. I like to believe, that most people - including most shippers - actually love everything about the show.

WillowFromBuffy once said elsewhere "There is not a single season, not a single episode and not a single character that I don`t like" and I do agree with that. Even Riley, whom I have probably the most issues with, is at his core a guy with a heart of gold. I concede though, that I don`t understand Restless, which limits my love for this particular episode :-)

flow

Silver1
30-09-18, 03:53 PM
I'm sticking this here. This one off re-watch/reaction to Once more with feeling by this lady really touched me.

Recorded in Buffy's 20th Birthday year she re-watches this episode she first talks about what the show meant to her as as a gay women.

When people say representation in TV doesn't matter they should watch this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ikkRQ1KsPQ

Utterly joyful.

Priceless
30-09-18, 04:22 PM
That's was lovely Silver1. Thank you for posting. Buffy means so much to so many people, and it's wonderful to see :wub:

HowiMetdaSlayer
30-09-18, 04:40 PM
Watching a ASR AoS vid right now. :)

Silver1
30-09-18, 04:45 PM
That's was lovely Silver1. Thank you for posting. Buffy means so much to so many people, and it's wonderful to see :wub:

I'm so glad you enjoyed it. She was so joyful and genuine in her take on this show It brought a tear to my eye. :)

Priceless
30-09-18, 05:08 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DXiewIHrYo

SpuffyGlitz
30-09-18, 05:14 PM
Clueless question - but is there a specific day of the week when she posts her reaction videos? I'm just eager for her next set of reactions :)

Priceless
30-09-18, 05:30 PM
The way she just moves upto the screen when Spike starts singing, just made my day :lol:

Seeing Red is going to break her heart :(

flow
30-09-18, 06:29 PM
I think, she posts Buffy videos on Friday.

flow

TimeTravellingBunny
30-09-18, 07:01 PM
Clueless question - but is there a specific day of the week when she posts her reaction videos? I'm just eager for her next set of reactions :)

She posts 2 Buffyverse videos on Friday, and 2 more on Saturday. They may be Buffy or Angel, since she's watching them in parallel.
But she lives in Australia, so that may mean Thursday and Friday, depending on where you live. It's usually Thursday/Friday evening for me, for people in the Western hemisphere it's probably Thursday/Friday earlier in the day.

This is her full schedule: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvE2ptzGJ8zGp5f0JvfJcMQ/about

KingofCretins
01-10-18, 03:58 AM
After Shows Reaction is pretty much the "perfect viewer" in terms of how the writers probably hoped the majority of viewers would react. She both loves Bangel and she loves Spuffy and she's emotionally invested in both of them whenever they're on screen which is, after all, I imagine what the writers had intended. She also seems to have a healthy love/affection for pretty much every character. The only character she outright hated was Riley but other than that, she is pretty much a writer's dream.

She should also be the envy of a lot of fans, IMO. It must be far more rewarding to be able to watch the series and love whatever you're viewing in the moment (regardless of ship/character/season) which is sadly not all that common in fandom. People seem entrenched in their sides.

A credit to your tribe, she is.

The Riley stuff was actually kinda tiresome, but what can you do?

So far, hands down, my favorite has been the realization of what was happening in "The Gift", what must happen.

Stoney
01-10-18, 04:53 AM
Okay I watched her OMWF reaction, well watched/skimmed through it. I actually found both her pauses and the jumps in the episode itself pretty irritating straight away. But her visual reactions at key points was entertaining to see. She obviously doesn't know JM is in a band, I assume those commenting on her vids will have told her. I don't think I could fully sit through these though and, I don't know if her others vary of course, but there wasn't much critical thought going on. Or verbalised at least. Going only on how she seemed during that I'm not sure that she'll 'get' the darker, negative side of Buffy and Spike and not just really dislike that it isn't a positive, happy development. I would be interested to see how she responds to Smashed.

I'm also a little dubious that she didn't know about it and how unspoiled she was about the musical ep as she says right as it starts that she can't sing during this (I think) and that's just a really weird thing to say I thought when the credits have only just started. I just don't think that you'd jump to that conclusion and she then plays 'realising' it's a musical later, so why say that at the start. Anyway, yeah, I'll nosey at others, but I'd skim even more than I just did for this I think.

Silver1
01-10-18, 07:04 AM
but there wasn't much critical thought going on.

Imo thats par for the course with her I'm afraid.

Stoney
01-10-18, 10:47 AM
Imo thats par for the course with her I'm afraid.

Not that it's required to dig into themes, plots, characters to enjoy the show of course. I know when I very first watched it I wasn't considering it to the detail I do now. But it was what I could see in the plots and character arcs that made me want to dig deeper and discuss it and which caused me to find online fandom. So there's nothing wrong with her not seeming to be critically appreciating it, it's just that this reduces my interest in her responses. It's still somewhat interesting, to see how someone is responding to key moments even on a more surface level viewing, but when things get darker she might be put off I think. Unless she surprises me and relates to what she sees, which of course could happen. I can hardly claim to know what her preferences and takes on things are like from skipping through one review. :)

Silver1
01-10-18, 10:57 AM
I suspect like a lot of todays reactors she's chasing subs/money so she's not going to go into stuff below surface level for fear of alienating her audience.

She does cover an awful lot of shows, (I noticed she's been doing quite a lot of live streams of her editing her Supernatural videos for example that go on for hours) which personally I don't bother with. Same with her vids on Agents of Shield.

As I said I haven't watched her cover of other shows, but I think maybe the standard of writing of those means she gets on with them better. I suspect she's not into deep or dark stuff and so her covering Buffy and Angel is going to be very interesting as both seasons progress.

TimeTravellingBunny
01-10-18, 02:41 PM
Okay I watched her OMWF reaction, well watched/skimmed through it. I actually found both her pauses and the jumps in the episode itself pretty irritating straight away. But her visual reactions at key points was entertaining to see. She obviously doesn't know JM is in a band, I assume those commenting on her vids will have told her. I don't think I could fully sit through these though and, I don't know if her others vary of course, but there wasn't much critical thought going on. Or verbalised at least. Going only on how she seemed during that I'm not sure that she'll 'get' the darker, negative side of Buffy and Spike and not just really dislike that it isn't a positive, happy development. I would be interested to see how she responds to Smashed.

I'm also a little dubious that she didn't know about it and how unspoiled she was about the musical ep as she says right as it starts that she can't sing during this (I think) and that's just a really weird thing to say I thought when the credits have only just started. I just don't think that you'd jump to that conclusion and she then plays 'realising' it's a musical later, so why say that at the start. Anyway, yeah, I'll nosey at others, but I'd skim even more than I just did for this I think.

It's a reaction video, not an essay or review. If you want reviews from her, watch the season overviews she does. Sonetimes she, like every reactor, talks about the episode for a few minutes at the end, but that wasn't the case this time, probably because the video was too long already, or because she waa too excited and emotional.

And I don't understand people doubting if the reactors are totally unspoiled. Do you actually think these people are such great actors? If she is pretending, then she needs to quickly embark on an acting career. Give her all the roles. Because if that's acting, it's Emmy caliber acting.

Stoney
01-10-18, 03:11 PM
Okay, I'm not sure why this seems to have irritated you so much, I'm just saying why I didn't find it great viewing. I'm totally happy to accept that this is probably in great part because it didn't offer me something I'd prefer but that it would have been somewhat unlikely in this format. In fact I've openly said at the beginning that this is exactly why I don't watch these things because I don't think they would. So no, I wasn't expecting an essay or review, just a thoughtful comment or two. A reaction that showed some thoughts were churning after having watched it. If she sometimes talks about the episode at the end for a few minutes that would have met what I thought I might see. I wasn't expecting a complex analysis by any stretch.

And I'm just making an observation that she made a very odd comment at the start about singing, it was random and seemed out of nowhere. I'm not suggesting that she necessarily knew anything more than that it was a musical episode. But I think she may have known that or what she said makes no sense to me. And there would be a benefit to her presenting herself as completely unspoiled, even over minor little facts, because it makes her reactions more interesting to people.

flow
01-10-18, 09:39 PM
I was wondering if someone had been given her the black microfone that is shaped like a ball and she assumed she was expected to be singing because of the microfone.

flow

Stoney
01-10-18, 10:17 PM
Could be that if it was a change of mic (which obviously I wouldn't know about never having seen another). :D

SpuffyGlitz
06-10-18, 10:38 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxMwu-M4b9g&index=97&list=PL3iO1RKxrqbYqz0v9uhx7hOjWQJME2FCq

HowiMetdaSlayer
06-10-18, 02:36 PM
Watched a few of her Buffy & AoS vids. She's cute! Pretty good as react vids go. Been watching some Killing Eve and WayHaught react vids recently. Those are pretty interesting/amusing. Anyone seen any of those? :confused:

flow
07-10-18, 09:03 PM
The tabula rasa vid was the first vid, where I thought she was overdoing it with the stopping and talking. I was hoping she would do Smashed immediately after, but - alas - nothing yet.

HowIMetDaSlayer:
Killing Eve and WayHaught react vids

I am sorry, I haven`t even watched those series. Are they good?

flow

ETA:Oh, I forgot to mention this. She knew the Michelle Branch song. She said it had been on Charmed???

Priceless
13-10-18, 11:10 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qKn39LPicw

- - - Updated - - -

Just watched it and was disappointed.

Silver1
13-10-18, 11:13 AM
Yeah, I watched the three video she posted up today. I wish she'd stop nattering through parts of the dialog as she often misses things.

If she was taken aback by the Spuffy shagging in these, god only knows If she's going to be prepared for whats to come. ;)

Priceless
13-10-18, 11:21 AM
She annoyed me by going on about the skirt and if anyone lived in that house. As one person on youtube told her, of course no-one lived there, or Spike wouldn't be able to enter.

Silver1
13-10-18, 11:41 AM
Yeah, she seems to have the concentration span of a Mayfly. I mean in one of the videos (Gone?) she gets so distracted looking at another screen that she misses stuff and has to rewind it.

Concentrate hon for god sake.

Oh and after reading some of the comments starting to appear on there already disturbed by the Spuffy stuff, I think we're going a have a right sh*t storm when Seeing Red gets shown.

TriBel
13-10-18, 11:56 AM
I don't get reaction videos. This is how I look watching TV or a film.

1376

Obviously, I'm not him (wrong gender, similar hairstyle, slightly less facial hair and I'd pick a better team) but I have his expression. I occasionally laugh but these are my standard responses:

Bored, horrified, scared: press off button
Puzzled or in suspense: Ask Alexa how it ends

I sometimes use the phrase WTF! but usually as a precursor to one of the above. If it's good I give a wry smile at the end and say "FM...that was good".

I'm gonna make a non-reaction reaction video. :D

Silver1
13-10-18, 12:02 PM
Well there not 'normal' reactions, as I've said on here before there amped up to get viewers/subs. So their responses are going to be very OTT to play to their audience and what they think they want.

TriBel
13-10-18, 12:25 PM
Well there not 'normal' reactions, as I've said on here before there amped up to get viewers/subs. So their responses are going to be very OTT to play to their audience and what they think they want.

Like this? :lol:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1tzcliDNPU

vampmogs
13-10-18, 12:29 PM
I've seen her videos up until Dead Things now and I am somewhat disappointed her reactions. However, I imagine I'm disappointed for very different reasons then you both are/will be.

I have no issues with her shipping Spuffy and I personally consider Season 6 to be the most interesting season for Spuffy by far. They're incredibly interesting this season. However, I feel she's so smitten and so biased that there's a really odd disconnect between watch she's viewing and how she's reacting. She has a very visceral reaction to Warren's behaviour and she was even upset and very critical of Willow's recent behaviour and Willow was her favourite character so she's capable of objectivity. However, in regards to Spuffy she seems either completely blase to the unhealthy aspects of their relationship or there's this weird cognitive dissonance going on between what she's watching and her reactions to it which makes her recent videos pretty unsatisfying to me. I don't necessarily need her to react how I'd react but I'm taken aback by how little she reacts, well, at all :headscratch:

I'd think that even the most ardent Spuffy fans would have strong reactions to Dead Things. Whether it be Spike's behaviour on the balcony or Buffy pummelling Spike's face in you'd expect that she'd have some kind of reaction to it. However, whilst there's glimmers of moments where she seems to recongise that, at the very least, they're both behaving in ways that could be harmful, she also seems very naive about their relationship. For instance, she says that Spike's behaviour on the balcony is "creepy" and then admits that she sees similarities between Spike's rationalisation of Katrina's death and Faith's mantra in Season 3 but at the end of the episode she gushes about how Spike's "perfect" when Buffy is breaking down in Tara's lap. Likewise, when Buffy begins pummelling Spike's face in she does react and pleads with Buffy to "stop" but then immediately says how "this is all Warren's fault" and doesn't seem to really grasp the magnitude of the abuse that has just gone on between Buffy & Spike or the severity of Buffy's actions. She spends the rest of the episode whimsically talking about how Spike was so cute trying to hide Katrina's body for Buffy :s

I find it unsatisfying because I don't feel that the emotional impact of Buffy's breakdown has any weight for her. She's so blase about their relationship and is perceiving it though such rose-tinted glasses that I feel the conflict Buffy feels about it is totally lost on her. And that's actually fairly true of how she seems to have reacted to most of Buffy's arc this season overall. I mean, she certainly gets teary-eyed when Buffy breaks down sobbing but I think that's simply more at the sight of Buffy crying then actually understanding why she's struggling so much. Likewise, she states repeatedly that Buffy is simply "taking responsibility" for Katrina's death and that's certainly true to an extent and, IMO, it is admirable, but she doesn't seem to grasp that Buffy is also using it as an excuse to abandon her life and responsibilities and she can't grasp why Dawn is so hurt despite the fact that if Buffy goes to jail she's condemning Dawn to foster care.

It's all just very odd. Even when Buffy and Spike are hurling abuse at each other and saying some very hurtful things ("You're just... convenient" / "I knew the only thing better than killing a Slayer would be fu[cking one]") she just smiles throughout it as if it's just harmless banter. It doesn't seem to register with her at all that they're hurting one another. It leaves me completely perplexed as to how she's going to deal with the AR. I think she'll either be so utterly shocked by it because she hasn't taken any of it seriously up until this point or she'll actually be dismissive of it and rationalise it straight away. And just to reiterate, I certainly don't want her to dislike Spuffy by any means as I find it incredibly interesting and enjoyable to watch in Season 6 and I hope she would too. But the power behind the story (both the good and bad elements) all seems totally lost on her. And I don't think it's because she's unintelligent as she has responded strongly to Willow and Warren's behaviour and recognised how disturbing both of their actions have been up at various points in the season. She just seems unwilling to take anything regarding Spuffy seriously.

Silver1
13-10-18, 12:48 PM
I've seen her videos up until Dead Things now

Are you one of her patrons then?


she just smiles throughout it as if it's just harmless banter

Hate to put It this way then maybe she's just not very bright?

vampmogs
13-10-18, 12:58 PM
Are you one of her patrons then?

Nope but I have access to one of her Patrons's accounts (with their permission obviously). They also patron for Van so I have access to those videos as well. I like Van. Her reactions are more timid than most but she seems like a really sweet and pleasant person.


Hate to put It this way then maybe she's just not very bright?

Possibly, but she has a visceral reaction to Warren's actions in that episode and points out straight away that it's disgusting and rape long before he even mind controls Katrina. And she recongised that Willow was behaving badly throughout Season 6 and even commented in her Smashed video that she doesn't feel sympathy for her over losing Tara even though she "was" her favourite character (which implies she may have been so upset with her she stopped considering Willow her favourite). So it's not as if she's incapable of seeing the darker aspects of the story.

I've never heard (or seen) anyone having such a nonchalant reaction to the alleyway beat down. As I said, she says "no" and "please stop" as it's happening and groans but then she doesn't react to Spike's battered face at all and then gets over it straight away and starts complaining that it's all Warren's fault. She doesn't seem to think it's a big deal at all. And she thinks it's romantic that Spike dumps Katrina's body in the river as well and is grinning as he says it as if it's funny or cute or something. It's bizarre :blink:

Silver1
13-10-18, 01:03 PM
Her reactions are more timid than most but she seems like a really sweet and pleasant person.

Yeah, I really like her too. :D


Possibly, but she has a visceral reaction to Warren's actions in that episode

Yeah, but visceral isn't quite the same and really processing what you're seeing and understanding what the show wants you to see. Buffy in season 6 isn't a 'kiddie show' and sometimes I don't think some of the reactors don't realise that.

vampmogs
13-10-18, 01:13 PM
Yeah, but visceral isn't quite the same and really processing what you're seeing and understanding what the show wants you to see. Buffy in season 6 isn't a 'kiddie show' and sometimes I don't think some of the reactors don't realise that.

I guess it's an interesting window into how some people do react to the show :noidea: But, yeah, it's pretty disappointing overall. I was looking forward to her reaction to Dead Things as it is such a provocative episode but I ended up just extremely confused by it all ::lol:


Yeah, I really like her too. :D

She seems lovely. I also think her reactions are more authentic than most of other people's. I can see people finding her videos boring as she doesn't exaggerate her reactions as much but I think it's because she's so genuine. She concentrates on the episodes and never takes her eyes off them even when she's talking out loud.

KingofCretins
13-10-18, 01:18 PM
I daresay that some of the meaty moral signfiicance of Season 6 in general and Spuffy in particular may be down to her having already swam through four seasons of rationalized amorality because the vampires are so pretty that is the lodestone of "Vampire Diaries", of which she reaches this point in Season 6 of "Buffy" having already completed the first four seasons of. If you've been normalizing, as a viewer, the first four seasons of everything Damon and Stefan do and are tolerated for doing, I'll be honest, it's almost impossible to imagine circling back to a first pass through Buffy Season 6 and expecting much shock. I mean, innocent human bystander deaths and hiding bodies and beating up loved ones are basically by-episode occurrences on that show.

She (Shan/ASR) was certainly horrified when Alan was stabbed by Faith, but that was much earlier or even before her TVD run started, just for context. By now, I'd have been less surprised if she would have been more than just miffed had Buffy really unintentionally killed Katrina and Spike hidden the body.

But, "Seeing Red" is different, that touches on ground that I don't think TVD ever went with -- or at least not so memorably as I can place it. I imagine she'll be pretty salty, although probably no "go Xander go" salty, and probably pretty immediately distracted by Tara's death. I would, though, guess that by the time "Grave" is over she'll be back in shipper overload, though.

Silver1
13-10-18, 01:28 PM
Imo The Vampire Diaries is absolute crap and can't hold a candle to BTVS.

I'm still sticking with she's just a trifle dim myself.


She seems lovely. I also think her reactions are more authentic than most of other people's. I can see people finding her videos boring as she doesn't exaggerate her reactions as much but I think it's because she's so genuine. She concentrates on the episodes and never takes her eyes off them even when she's talking out loud.

Yes, watching her reactions actually cheers me up in a weird way. I love the quaint little phrases she uses when she's shocked or surprised. :lol:

And yes, she actually concentrates when she watches.

Stoney
13-10-18, 01:34 PM
The complexity of Spike and Buffy's relationship is why they are so interesting and you don't get to see the highs and lows of that better than S6-7. It sounds like she is missing the toxicity that is developing in the relationship and so will probably be somewhat flawed by how it develops, perhaps until she sees the point of where it is taken. It might just be something that she 'sees' better in hindsight and by the season end. And then of course to how they positively affect each other in S7 as a contrast to S6. She might just need to see more of that wider picture to make her start to view it in different terms. It could mean that she turns to disliking it, or feeling unhappy because it didn't fulfil what she wanted it to be, instead of liking what they wrote of course. :noidea:

vampmogs
13-10-18, 01:37 PM
I daresay that some of the meaty moral signfiicance of Season 6 in general and Spuffy in particular may be down to her having already swam through four seasons of rationalized amorality because the vampires are so pretty that is the lodestone of "Vampire Diaries", of which she reaches this point in Season 6 of "Buffy" having already completed the first four seasons of. If you've been normalizing, as a viewer, the first four seasons of everything Damon and Stefan do and are tolerated for doing, I'll be honest, it's almost impossible to imagine circling back to a first pass through Buffy Season 6 and expecting much shock. I mean, innocent human bystander deaths and hiding bodies and beating up loved ones are basically by-episode occurrences on that show.

She (Shan/ASR) was certainly horrified when Alan was stabbed by Faith, but that was much earlier or even before her TVD run started, just for context. By now, I'd have been less surprised if she would have been more than just miffed had Buffy really unintentionally killed Katrina and Spike hidden the body.

But, "Seeing Red" is different, that touches on ground that I don't think TVD ever went with -- or at least not so memorably as I can place it. I imagine she'll be pretty salty, although probably no "go Xander go" salty, and probably pretty immediately distracted by Tara's death. I would, though, guess that by the time "Grave" is over she'll be back in shipper overload, though.

Sadly I suspect that you're right. It does circle back to me wondering what on earth she thinks Buffy is so conflicted and upset about throughout most of this season (and this episode in particular) in regards to her relationship with Spike if she doesn't understand why Buffy is so horrified by Spike dumping the body. But then, as I said, she even mentions how Spike's "one dead girl doesn't tip the scales"/"How many people are alive because of you?" sounds a lot like Faith's rationalisations but... then just goes back to thinking it's adorable. So I honestly have no idea if she either doesn't understand the moral significance of it all or if she's just unwilling to.


Imo The Vampire Diaries is absolute crap and can't hold a candle to BTVS.

I don't think King's comparing the quality of the shows. His point is more that if she's accustomed to the kind of "morality" (or lack thereof) in a show like TVD, where the main characters kill innocent people or are abusive to each other all the time and it's no big deal, that she's probably pretty desensitised which explains why she isn't reacting to Season 6 the way the writers probably had in mind. Season 6 actually expects the characters and the audience to have a sense of morality whereas you can't take TVD seriously at all otherwise you'd recognise what horrible monstrous people all it's characters are :lol:


Yes, watching her reactions actually cheers me up in a weird way. I love the quaint little phrases she uses when she's shocked or surprised. :lol:

And yes, she actually concentrates when she watches.

Yes and I love when she gets pissed off at a character. The side eye glance she gives them when they're saying something she is angry about is just great. It's such a quiet disapproving look :lol: So much more endearing then screaming at the screen the way so many reactors do!

Silver1
13-10-18, 01:37 PM
The complexity of Spike and Buffy's relationship is why they are so interesting and you don't get to see the highs and lows of that better than S6-7. It sounds like she is missing the toxicity that is developing in the relationship and so will probably be somewhat flawed by how it develops, perhaps until she sees the point of where it is taken. It might just be something that she 'sees' better in hindsight and by the season end. And then of course to how they positively affect each other in S7 as a contrast to S6. She might just need to see more of that wider picture to make her start to view it in different terms. It could mean that she turns to disliking it, or feeling unhappy because it didn't fulfil what she wanted it to be, instead of liking what they wrote of course. :noidea:


Or she's not really into concentrating on it not helped by the fact she doesn't seem to understand the language Of TV?


So much more endearing then screaming at the screen the way so many reactors do!

Christ, ain't that the truth! :lol:

KingofCretins
13-10-18, 01:57 PM
Sure, it's much more likely that she's stupid than that her expectations of what's common or acceptable/normal morally in vampire genre fiction have been skewed by what she has already consumed.

Silver1
13-10-18, 02:13 PM
If It has then she must be truly stupid.

flow
13-10-18, 02:19 PM
vampmogs
She's so blase about their relationship and is perceiving it though such rose-tinted glasses that I feel the conflict Buffy feels about it is totally lost on her.

To vindicate her just a little bit - that was what happened to a lot of viewers in season 6. That was why the writers put in the scene where Spike tries to bite the young woman in the alley. To make it absolutely clear that he is evil. It was lost on many viewers though.

This show is complex. One might need watching season 6 more than once and considering Smashed (I haven`t seen her reaction to Deadly Things yet) more than for just 45 minutes while watching it. It is probably not helping, that she is watching several episodes in a row, without a weeks break, like the viewers had when the show aired. It is probably also not helping, that she watches several different shows as well at the same time.

I hope she will allow herself some time to let the impact of what is happening from Smashed to Deadly Things sink in.

I want to say though, that it never occured to me, that Spike could enter the building, because it was abandoned. I completely missed the fact, that he entered the building without an Invitation. I also did not notice that Rack was portrayed by the same actor as Kralick.

flow

vampmogs
13-10-18, 02:26 PM
vampmogs

To vindicate her just a little bit - that was what happened to a lot of viewers in season 6. That was why the writers put in the scene where Spike tries to bite the young woman in the alley. To make it absolutely clear that he is evil. It was lost on many viewers though.

This show is complex. One might need watching season 6 more than once and considering Smashed (I haven`t seen her reaction to Deadly Things yet) more than for just 45 minutes while watching it. It is probably not helping, that she is watching several episodes in a row, without a weeks break, like the viewers had when the show aired. It is probably also not helping, that she watches several different shows as well at the same time.

I hope she will allow herself some time to let the impact of what is happening from Smashed to Deadly Things sink in.

Well said :)


I want to say though, that it never occured to me, that Spike could enter the building, because it was abandoned. I completely missed the fact, that he entered the building without an Invitation.

Yeah this doesn't bother me at all. Until today I've never thought about it, either. I guess the building always looked very obviously abandoned to me so it never even occurred to me that someone could be living in it.

KingofCretins
13-10-18, 03:21 PM
Sadly I suspect that you're right. It does circle back to me wondering what on earth she thinks Buffy is so conflicted and upset about throughout most of this season (and this episode in particular) in regards to her relationship with Spike if she doesn't understand why Buffy is so horrified by Spike dumping the body. But then, as I said, she even mentions how Spike's "one dead girl doesn't tip the scales"/"How many people are alive because of you?" sounds a lot like Faith's rationalisations but... then just goes back to thinking it's adorable. So I honestly have no idea if she either doesn't understand the moral significance of it all or if she's just unwilling to.

I mean, I can say with objective knowledge that her reaction to the Damon-omics of life and death, if you will, is pretty much consistent with her blase reaction to Spike's ethics in Season 6. The major moral failing of that show, for all its soapy fun, is that for much of its run everything, everything is morally acceptable if its in furtherance of Protecting Elena. And casual murder of innocents in that show is treated as an unfortunate but emotionally valid response by vampires to stress. I don't imagine that her reaction to such things would hold if she were to start reacting to, say, "Veronica Mars", or continue with "Lost", or various others -- but in terms of setting a consumer parameter for watching the rest of "Buffy"? Or continuing with "True Blood" if she chooses to suffer thusly? Pretty sure we can thank God's Freaking Gift to Vampirism for that.


I don't think King's comparing the quality of the shows. His point is more that if she's accustomed to the kind of "morality" (or lack thereof) in a show like TVD, where the main characters kill innocent people or are abusive to each other all the time and it's no big deal, that she's probably pretty desensitised which explains why she isn't reacting to Season 6 the way the writers probably had in mind. Season 6 actually expects the characters and the audience to have a sense of morality whereas you can't take TVD seriously at all otherwise you'd recognise what horrible monstrous people all it's characters are :lol:

Nope, we're going with the 22-23 year old woman is just stupid, apparently. Because class.


Yes and I love when she gets pissed off at a character. The side eye glance she gives them when they're saying something she is angry about is just great. It's such a quiet disapproving look :lol: So much more endearing then screaming at the screen the way so many reactors do!

Van is excellent. I'm enjoying having several concurrent reactors going for "Buffy", none of whom could have been much out of diapers if that when it premiered.


To vindicate her just a little bit - that was what happened to a lot of viewers in season 6. That was why the writers put in the scene where Spike tries to bite the young woman in the alley. To make it absolutely clear that he is evil. It was lost on many viewers though.

I'm here to say there has never been a point where that wasn't being rationalized and glossed over. Every rule we have ever been given about the chip makes it explicitly clear he intended to kill her, but there hasn't been a day in the community since Fall 2001 that folk havn't tried to fanwank around it.


I hope she will allow herself some time to let the impact of what is happening from Smashed to Deadly Things sink in.

"Dead Things" is pretty much where I got off the Spuffy train, even though from the point at which I rejoined the show as a weekly viewer (5.15) I was there for the Spuffy of it.


I want to say though, that it never occured to me, that Spike could enter the building, because it was abandoned. I completely missed the fact, that he entered the building without an Invitation. I also did not notice that Rack was portrayed by the same actor as Kralick.

Jeff Kober is an institution in genre fiction. I was so glad when they used him "The Walking Dead" just as an end unto itself really. He was good, too.

I sort of intuitively shined to the abandoned building thing at the time, and that's actually confirmed mythologically in Season 7 of course when he can freely enter abandoned homes in Sunnydale. But now that it's being brought up, I really wish they had used that premise as a weapon. Effects heavy, but would love for Buffy to just plow a vampire face first, to harmful effect like a brick wall, into an open doorway through which the vampire cannot enter. Maybe for the new show.

Silver1
13-10-18, 03:36 PM
Nope, we're going with the 22-23 year old woman is just stupid, apparently. Because class.

So you're saying some people can't be? That or she's doing her 'act' again for her audience, and whatever you may think of me a lot of reactors do engage with that kinda thing on Youtube. Always chasing the dollar.

Priceless
13-10-18, 04:37 PM
I like Van too, but she hasn't posted for a while. I also like Bbangerang, she's Belgian and quite laid back


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRG7evjEQUM&t=690s

Sosa lola
13-10-18, 04:48 PM
If It has then she must be truly stupid.

I don't think it's fair to call someone stupid, especially a real someone. She's a person. I can't comment on how she reacts to the show because I haven't seen her videos, but perhaps she's just a casual first time 'watcher' of the show. She isn't looking for depth and meaning and does not have our years of constantly discussing the show/reading analysis and reviews about the show. She's watching it for fun. That's it.

Silver1
13-10-18, 05:00 PM
She's watching it for fun

No, imo like a lot of 'professional' youtubers she's doing it for A)attention and B) money. Why do you think these people churn out so many videos on a weekly basis, her included.

Why like passion of the nerd she does live editing streams on something as popular as Supernatural? Most people on youtube these days do it for money, I'm sorry but they do. It's a way of subsidizing their income, and more power to them, but this is not fandom like It was on places like Live journal and here for example. Times have changed.

flow
13-10-18, 08:26 PM
Seriously, how much money do you think, she gets? For the last four weeks judging from the clicks on all her videos it would be between 250 $ and 500 $ For all the videos on her channel. About 50 videos. Do you really think she does this for money?

I don`t.

Oh and when I was a kid, we used put lametta on Christmas trees. We don`t do that anymore. Times have changed. Get a grip, hon.

flow

a thing of evil
13-10-18, 08:34 PM
No, imo like a lot of 'professional' youtubers she's doing it for A)attention and B) money. Why do you think these people churn out so many videos on a weekly basis, her included.

You make it sound like that's a bad thing. She's making entertaining content thousands of people seem to enjoy, clearly puts a lot of effort into it too - why shouldn't she receive money?


this is not fandom like It was on places like Live journal and here for example.

OK. So she's not fandom. Who cares?

Silver1
13-10-18, 09:17 PM
You make it sound like that's a bad thing. She's making entertaining content thousands of people seem to enjoy, clearly puts a lot of effort into it too - why shouldn't she receive money?



OK. So she's not fandom. Who cares?


Seriously, how much money do you think, she gets? For the last four weeks judging from the clicks on all her videos it would be between 250 $ and 500 $ For all the videos on her channel. About 50 videos. Do you really think she does this for money?


Did you either of you even read my comment properly?


I'm sorry but they do. It's a way of subsidizing their income, and more power to them


Oh and when I was a kid, we used put lametta on Christmas trees. We don`t do that anymore. Times have changed. Get a grip, hon.

:lol::roll::xd

Priceless
19-10-18, 07:20 PM
Her Doublemeat Palace reactions were quite funny. At one point she even suggests Buffy should join the police force :D

- - - Updated - - -

The Dead Things reaction was interesting. She thought Spike and Buffy were kinky/creepy, but they were hot with great chemistry :) She loves Spike . . . and Seeing Red is coming up soon :( She said very little about Warren's actions, as though she wasn't sure how she was meant to react and was confused until Katrina called them out as rapists. I do think this episode really shocked her.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSLYOJSZc04

HowiMetdaSlayer
19-10-18, 09:13 PM
HowIMetDaSlayer:
I am sorry, I haven`t even watched those series. Are they good?

flow
Killing Eve along with Sharp Objects are probably the 2 best new (if not of any) shows this year!
Wynonna Earp is more of a guilty pleasure show, but it has one of the best couples on TV (WayHaught). :s


Seeing Red is going to break her heart :(
Has she not been spoiled? :confused:

Priceless
19-10-18, 09:19 PM
Has she not been spoiled?

I don't think so. But who knows really? With these youtube reactioners you can't really tell what's real and what might be an act. I quite enjoy her, and a few others, so I like to think she hasn't been spoilt.

flow
19-10-18, 09:35 PM
I watched the vid today. You can see that season 6 is taking it`s toll on her. She looked sad after finishing Dead Things, not enthusiastic, even though she found Spike adorable at one point in this episode (or was it in Doublemeat Palace? I might get confused myself just now).

vampmogs
I find it unsatisfying because I don't feel that the emotional impact of Buffy's breakdown has any weight for her. She's so blase about their relationship and is perceiving it though such rose-tinted glasses that I feel the conflict Buffy feels about it is totally lost on her. And

Having watched it for myself now, I can totally see, what you were talking about. What really really surprised me, was that she instantly blamed Warren when Buffy beat up Spike. WTF? That guy did so many disgusting things in this episode, but he clearly wasn`t involved in that scene at all.

And that might be her problem with season 6. She might be looking for black and the white. I have no other explanation, why she was coming up with Warren in the alley-behind-the-police-station-scene. The only way that makes sense, is, that she couldn`t blame Buffy and couldn`t blame Spike. They both clearly acted wrong in this epsiode but simply weren`t supposed to be the villain of the piece. She could have either gone for the grey area and ask herself, what inner conflict might have Buffy driven to hit on Spike and whether Spike`s motives might be more selfish than adorable and he might be making some more mistakes than just failing in hiding Katrina`s body properly. But there are no easy answers to be found down that road, so - hey presto. Let`s blame Warren. It´s all his fault! He is evil! He shall rot in hell!

vampmogs
It leaves me completely perplexed as to how she's going to deal with the AR. I think she'll either be so utterly shocked by it because she hasn't taken any of it seriously up until this point or she'll actually be dismissive of it and rationalise it straight away.

I wasn`t sure about what to expect until I watched her reaction to Dead Things. At the moment I put my money on "It`s not Spike`s fault and anyway, he didn`t even mean to rape her" She might even be putting some of the blame on Buffy. I hope she will surprise me, but for now, this is my best guess.

flow

Priceless
19-10-18, 09:52 PM
I watched the vid today. You can see that season 6 is taking it`s toll on her. She looked sad after finishing Dead Things, not enthusiastic, even though she found Spike adorable at one point in this episode (or was it in Doublemeat Palace? I might get confused myself just now).


I'm pretty sure it was Dead Things when she called him 'adorable'. She gets this smitten look on her face whenever he appears on screen.

Don't know if everyone/anyone has seen it, but this is Torchwood Boy's reaction


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RBf-bSUtyk

HowiMetdaSlayer
19-10-18, 10:05 PM
Think I cried the 1st time too. :s

Priceless
19-10-18, 11:00 PM
At the start of his reaction to Villains, he still looked absolutely shell shocked, as though he really didn't want to go on :lol:

KingofCretins
20-10-18, 01:08 AM
She is so very tunnel vision on the 'ship I almost wonder how much it might override her reaction to the, frankly, way bigger event at the end of the episode. The AR, probably unfairly as we've haggled over the years, gets pretty well shunted to the side after this episode and, um, forever after in terms of real lasting consequence to the characters. I will be curious if she goes 'shipper BSOD over it, if it breaks it for her (I've heard of people who liked Spuffy fervently until the AR and then never after, but I've never personally witness it happen in real time), but I think the part I"ll be mostly curious about her reaction to is, of course, the killing.

BTW, Torchwood Boy's reaction to "Grave" cuts off right before the big epic finish and I'm still salty lol.

American Aurora
20-10-18, 03:32 AM
Looked at a couple of these videos - the reactions all seem so staged for maximum effect. Are they supposed to be real? Or is the obvious phoniness the whole point? The acting is so terrible in some of them! :lol:

It reminds me of a few actors I knew who were hired to go on the Jerry Springer show several times (in different outfits) to play outlandish characters. 99% of that stuff is fake, ya know. Don't know about You Tube videos, though. I'd imagine they're the same. :rolleyes:

Sorry - I'm just too cynical. But the exaggerated grimaces and eye-popping takes and all that just seem designed to get hits. For all we know, they're actually bored stiff.

Silver1
20-10-18, 07:39 AM
Looked at a couple of these videos - the reactions all seem so staged for maximum effect. Are they supposed to be real? Or is the obvious phoniness the whole point? The acting is so terrible in some of them! :lol:

It reminds me of a few actors I knew who were hired to go on the Jerry Springer show several times (in different outfits) to play outlandish characters. 99% of that stuff is fake, ya know. Don't know about You Tube videos, though. I'd imagine they're the same. :rolleyes:

Sorry - I'm just too cynical. But the exaggerated grimaces and eye-popping takes and all that just seem designed to get hits. For all we know, they're actually bored stiff.

I'm glad I'm not the only one to view it this way. And yeah, I'm beginning to suspect the 'novelty' of her watching Buffy/Angel is wearing off and she's' far more in to Supernatural. I suspect the writing is probably more up her alley?

And I agree what others have said I think the darkness of season 6 is wearing her down and she's not that keen to continue.

Priceless
20-10-18, 11:39 AM
One of the things I like about After Show is that she remembers previous episodes, their titles and what happened in them. I listen to a lot of podcasts, and one of them, Tiny Fences, the girl who'd never seen the show before could never remember the episode she'd seen two days ago! It used to drive me crazy - she so obviously didn't care about the show, and yet pretended she loved it for the sake of the podcast. The other podcaster could constantly remind her what happened in the last episode, who some of the characters were etc. I had to stop listening in the end.

Anyway, my point, once I stop rambling, is that After Show seems to really like the show and care about the characters and remember stuff, inc the title, of episodes she's seen months ago. It might all be a set up, but if so, she's done it very well.

a thing of evil
20-10-18, 03:06 PM
Looked at a couple of these videos - the reactions all seem so staged for maximum effect. Are they supposed to be real? Or is the obvious phoniness the whole point? The acting is so terrible in some of them!

It reminds me of a few actors I knew who were hired to go on the Jerry Springer show several times (in different outfits) to play outlandish characters. 99% of that stuff is fake, ya know. Don't know about You Tube videos, though. I'd imagine they're the same.

Sorry - I'm just too cynical. But the exaggerated grimaces and eye-popping takes and all that just seem designed to get hits. For all we know, they're actually bored stiff.

This entire comment strikes me as out of touch, but in a really adorable five year old girl asking "Santa's not real?" kinda way. I don't want to generalize, but at least in this thread, it's, like, you older folks just don't get it. It's a reaction video. You're like those people that look at, say, wrestling, and smugly proclaim uh, this is so fake! Yeah, everybody knows. Wrestling is theatre, obviously, it's fake but at the same time - it's not! Those large people really do perform those incredible acrobatic maneuvers, no? Reaction videos occupy a similar space. Like almost everything you see on youtube, twitch and so on reaction video is a performance and some parts/aspects of it may be exaggerated to make it more entertaining (because it's a f###ing entertainment, duh) but that doesn't mean that the person reacting doesn't truly find something funny or sad or infuriating or whatever.

flow
20-10-18, 03:10 PM
I totally believe, that she is real, that she is watching Buffy for the first time in her life and that she has been enjoying it - so far. I believe all her reactions to be authentic, genuine and spontanous. I really do. I don`t see the point in faking it, tbh. If she were that good at acting, she could make more money elsewhere.

flow

Ebdim9th
20-10-18, 09:43 PM
Still not done catching up on this thread, off I go, gotta come back ...... too bad that alley beat-down didn't come after he tried to rape her.....

TriBel
20-10-18, 10:21 PM
This entire comment strikes me as out of touch, but in a really adorable five year old girl asking "Santa's not real?" kinda way. I don't want to generalize, but at least in this thread, it's, like, you older folks just don't get it. It's a reaction video. You're like those people that look at, say, wrestling, and smugly proclaim uh, this is so fake! Yeah, everybody knows. Wrestling is theatre, obviously, it's fake but at the same time - it's not! Those large people really do perform those incredible acrobatic maneuvers, no? Reaction videos occupy a similar space. Like almost everything you see on youtube, twitch and so on reaction video is a performance and some parts/aspects of it may be exaggerated to make it more entertaining (because it's a f###ing entertainment, duh) but that doesn't mean that the person reacting doesn't truly find something funny or sad or infuriating or whatever.

Really? This "old person" gets it. "The authentic fake" in Eco's words. Alternatively, "the simulacrum is never that which conceals the truth—it is the truth which conceals that there is none. The simulacrum is true".

Priceless:
Tiny Fences...could never remember the episode she'd seen two days ago!

I'm in good company then! :D

Priceless
20-10-18, 10:34 PM
I'm in good company then!

Surely that's old age :p :hug: (I can empathise)

I am old and am spending more and more time on Youtube, and it's like a different world. Anyone can post a video, so all sorts of views and people are represented, often people and views I wouldn't come across in my real life, which is what makes it so interesting to me.

I have noticed that within communities there are people calling each other out all the time, showing angry reactions to someone else's video - the feelings seem real, but the reason for doing them are often a little suspect. Everything on yt is done to garner more views. It might not have started that way, but once you become popular, views are everything, because the more views you get, the more opportunity to monetarise your product.

But I think everyone knows this by now. It's about making a buck and getting famous and maybe not in that order. And that's not to say these people aren't honest in their views, but maybe subconsciously they taylor those views to what their fans want, because that's what is going to get them more fans, and make them more money.

vampmogs
21-10-18, 01:26 PM
I've watched her reaction to As You Were. As you can imagine, she hated Riley's return and she criticised the plot holes throughout the episode and didn't believe being The Doctor was something that Spike would do. However, I was shocked as at the end of the episode she admitted that whilst she shipped Spuffy it was beginning to get really toxic over the past few episodes and that she was beginning to find Spike "a little unlikable" due to his "being cocky" and that she preferred him when he was pining for Buffy from afar. Spike's boasting about sleeping with Buffy (to Riley) clearly made her uncomfortable, you could see it whilst watching the scenes and she told Spike to "not get cocky." You could also tell that she was unhappy with the earlier Buffy/Spike scene when Buffy tells Spike that Dawn is counting on her but she ends up going with him behind the tree. So I had a feeling things were starting to make her unhappy but her admissions at the end actually really surprised me.

She really didn't seem to be enjoying As You Were, though. She paused the episode halfway through and asked if she could skip it as she wasn't interested in Riley's return but she also seemed pretty unenthused about it before he even showed up. I haven't watched her reaction to Older and Far Away yet so I'm not sure if she's expressed issues with the story prior to this episode or if she just wasn't feeling As You Were but she was nowhere near as enthused as she's been previously.

**

I've watched her reaction to Older and Far Away. Ok, so she mentions Spike being "very cocky" a lot which makes her admissions in As You Were a lot less surprising now. She also said how much she loves Tara when she was c*ck-blocking him. I suspect Seeing Red is going to be very tough on her now for both characters.

Silver1
21-10-18, 02:32 PM
She paused the episode halfway through and asked if she could skip it as she wasn't interested in Riley's return but she also seemed pretty unenthused about it before he even showed up.

Now what did I say earlier in the thread? I said I thought she was getting fed up with this. I mean good god, how can you rect properly to a show If you don't bother to watch all of it???

As I said before I think Supernatural is more her style.

vampmogs
21-10-18, 02:41 PM
Now what did I say earlier in the thread? I said I thought she was getting fed up with this. I mean good god, how can you rect properly to a show If you don't bother to watch all of it???

She obviously wasn't being serious when she asked if she had to watch it. She just wasn't enthused to watch it at all because it was about Riley who she hates.

I think it's too extreme to say she's fed up with the show. Maybe she was just having a bad day? Maybe this particular episode wasn't gripping her? Maybe she's just not enjoying Season 6 in particular? Who knows. We have to remember that a *LOT* of Buffy fans have particular seasons that they dislike, so it really wouldn't be that weird if reactors didn't enjoy certain seasons as much too. But that's pure speculation on my part as she hasn't really expressed her opinion of the season at all and it was only this episode that I really noticed it.

Priceless
21-10-18, 02:50 PM
I shall not be watching her reaction to As You Were because I don't like the episode myself, so I can sympathise with her. I am not a Riley fan and to see so much Riley after all this time is a little wearing.

Silver1
21-10-18, 04:15 PM
She obviously wasn't being serious when she asked if she had to watch it. She just wasn't enthused to watch it at all because it was about Riley who she hates.

I think it's too extreme to say she's fed up with the show. Maybe she was just having a bad day? Maybe this particular episode wasn't gripping her? Maybe she's just not enjoying Season 6 in particular? Who knows. We have to remember that a *LOT* of Buffy fans have particular seasons that they dislike, so it really wouldn't be that weird if reactors didn't enjoy certain seasons as much too. But that's pure speculation on my part as she hasn't really expressed her opinion of the season at all and it was only this episode that I really noticed it.

Well for me I've been getting 'vibes' off of her for the last couple of episodes. Season 6 doesn't have much 'cute' in it, and I feel thats what she's the most comfortable with.

KingofCretins
21-10-18, 04:46 PM
Well for me I've been getting 'vibes' off of her for the last couple of episodes. Season 6 doesn't have much 'cute' in it, and I feel thats what she's the most comfortable with.

She would hardly be the first to have found Season 6 from about "Wrecked" on til "Entropy"/"Seeing Red" a bit of a grind.

flow
21-10-18, 04:55 PM
Priceless:
Don't know if everyone/anyone has seen it, but this is Torchwood Boy's reaction

I couldn`t find a reaction for Dead Things on his channel. Does any of you know, if he did one? I remember, that he had copyright issues and some of his vids got deleted, but he also did not do reactions for every single episode, so maybe he never bothered with Dead Things.

I cooled off of his reactions a bit, when I watched Spiral, because there was one shot inside the Winnebago, where Spike was sitting on the floor and he said (with an almost surprised laugh) "They`ve got Spike in there too." That made sense to the viewers, because he had cut out the scenes with Spike bringing the Winnebago to Buffy`s house and Buffy and Giles arguing about whether Spike should be on board or not. But if he had watched it for the first time just now, it made no sense for him, to say something like that, because it was clear, that Spike was on board. I could not find an explanation that made sense to me.

But I do have to admit that I loved his very emotional reaction to the show and kept watching his videos until Chosen.

flow

SpuffyGlitz
21-10-18, 05:05 PM
I've heard her say earlier (I think it was to Passion of the Nerd) that she really likes redemption arcs.

I think Older and Far Away, following Dead Things, is admittedly dark in tone. And to have both bookended by Doublemeat Palace and As You Were doesn't help. But I'm interested in how she's going to respond to Hell's Bells, Normal Again and Entropy in particular.

- - - Updated - - -

I actually find Shannon more authentic sounding than Torchwood Boy - I watched a few of his videos and enjoyed them - I could be totally wrong and he's watching everything for the first time for real - but at certain points it felt like acting, like he seemed "in the know". But I can't tell :noidea:

Also, it's probably hard to stay completely objective / 'unspoiled' when, as a reactor, you're bound to be flooded with comments & opinions on what you're watching, which also probably plays into the reactions.

Silver1
21-10-18, 05:44 PM
I gave up on Torchwood boy, his over reactions got on my nerves in the end. Never felt authentic to me personally. It's just a shame that Van isn't posting at the moment.

TriBel
21-10-18, 06:40 PM
Genuine question: what's the fascination with Reaction Videos? :noidea:

SpuffyGlitz
21-10-18, 06:48 PM
For me, it's the pleasure of watching Buffy vicariously for the first time. :p Watching someone else get obsessed over the same thing.

I had this obsession with Hitchcock's Psycho as a kid, but then I was obsessed with watching people watch Psycho for the first time - noting which parts made them sit up, whether they could see what was coming, whether they fell for the red herrings, where they were genuinely scared, what they found interesting as clues etc. Not sure what that says about me lol. :redshy:

Priceless
21-10-18, 06:49 PM
Genuine question: what's the fascination with Reaction Videos? :noidea:

I enjoy watching someone discover a show that I love, and seeing their reactions. I love newbies on podcasts too. They bring a different view than people like us who've seen the show a thousand times and have discussed every detail over and over.

flow
21-10-18, 06:50 PM
It`s about feeling again, what I felt, when I first watched it. Before I got spoiled by countless rewatches and discussing the show with you guys :D

flow

TriBel
21-10-18, 07:34 PM
Ha..."Vicarious" was the first thought that came to mind: the second was "Nostalgia for simpler times". You haven't let me down guys! :lol: I actually "Google Scholared" it (is that even a word?) to see if there were papers on it.

I actually don't like "new" (possibly because I like depth and very close analysis, which requires familiarity) although I take the point that fresh eyes can open up a different perspective.

KingofCretins
21-10-18, 11:59 PM
Sheer emotional voyeurism.

TimeTravellingBunny
22-10-18, 12:39 PM
I've heard her say earlier (I think it was to Passion of the Nerd) that she really likes redemption arcs.

I think Older and Far Away, following Dead Things, is admittedly dark in tone. And to have both bookended by Doublemeat Palace and As You Were doesn't help. But I'm interested in how she's going to respond to Hell's Bells, Normal Again and Entropy in particular.

- - - Updated - - -

I actually find Shannon more authentic sounding than Torchwood Boy - I watched a few of his videos and enjoyed them - I could be totally wrong and he's watching everything for the first time for real - but at certain points it felt like acting, like he seemed "in the know". But I can't tell :noidea:

Also, it's probably hard to stay completely objective / 'unspoiled' when, as a reactor, you're bound to be flooded with comments & opinions on what you're watching, which also probably plays into the reactions.

Torchwood Boy is occasionally (or often) inauthentic on purpose and openly. That happened when he was spoiled on the fact that OMWF was a musical episode, so he thought it would be cool to 'react' to the episode by singing through it. And everyone hated that - people want to see new viewers react to what is going on, not do gimmicks. He also tends to gloss over important things in episodes and make silly comments about unimportant stuff - which is why so many people hated some of his AtS season 1 reactions, especially The Prodigal. It's one thing to make comments on what you've seen to the camera, since you know you are addressing people who will watch your videos, and another when you keep doing it at the expense of actually following what is going on.

But the worst reactors are people like The Normies (they don't do Buffy, but they do some other shows I watch), who do group reactions where they get too engrossed in talking to each other to actually follow what's going on, or they try to be funny and snarky and make fun of a show they're watching, so they skip actual info and then complain about how the story supposedly doesn't make sense, because they missed all the explanations. (Their season 1 Agents of SHIELD reactions were like that, which is why I stopped watching them altogether.)

My favorite reactors are Liam Duke, van, ASR, JuliDG and Liam Catterson (the latter two also don't do Buffy). Bbangerang is also good, and JustArvin is lovable in how authentic his reactions are.

Silver1
22-10-18, 02:57 PM
But the worst reactors are people like The Normies

Oh god the 'Normies' are the pits imo. They are watching breaking Bad at the moment (one of my all time fav shows) and they are just about managing to concentrate on it. Mainly because one of them has already seen some of it, but as you said mostly they seem to have a huuuuge problem concentrating on anything for more then 5 seconds at a time and end up yapping through nearly everything.


That happened when he was spoiled on the fact that OMWF was a musical episode, so he thought it would be cool to 'react' to the episode by singing through it.

Oh christ, I'm glad I managed to miss that one then! :lol:

TimeTravellingBunny
22-10-18, 03:15 PM
Just a correction: Liam Duke does do Buffy reactions, and they're awesome. I got it mixed up with the other two reactors I mentioned who do not do Buffy. He's in the back half of season 2 now. I love the fact that he was never taken with Bangel, unlike every other reactor I've watched, found it cheesy, and only finds it compelling now that Angel has lost his soul (he saw Innocence last week). But he really ships Willow and Oz.

Priceless
22-10-18, 04:47 PM
Just a correction: Liam Duke does do Buffy reactions, and they're awesome. I got it mixed up with the other two reactors I mentioned who do not do Buffy. He's in the back half of season 2 now. I love the fact that he was never taken with Bangel, unlike every other reactor I've watched, found it cheesy, and only finds it compelling now that Angel has lost his soul (he saw Innocence last week). But he really ships Willow and Oz.

He's my favourite reactor. He's quite low key, and gives his thoughts at the end of every episode, which I like. It feels like he's actually thinking about each ep and not just emotionally reacting to it. I also like how he hated Cordy to begin with, and now he's starting to warm to her, and yes he's a big Woz shipper :)

SpuffyGlitz
22-10-18, 05:44 PM
Thanks for bringing up Liam Duke! I just watched a few of his videos - I really like his reaction style! I think I'll be following him too.

Priceless
26-10-18, 10:35 PM
Liam Duke has just done his reaction video for Phases, and he loves Woz even more then he did. Plus he's a big fan of werewolves.

Silver1
26-10-18, 11:03 PM
I fear he's going to be in for a shock come Tara's arrival in 4. :)

TimeTravellingBunny
26-10-18, 11:35 PM
Liam Duke has just done his reaction video for Phases, and he loves Woz even more then he did. Plus he's a big fan of werewolves.


I fear he's going to be in for a shock come Tara's arrival in 4. :)

His reaction to their kiss was adorable. He's probably going to be very unhappy during the Willow/Xander thing in season 3 and the Veruca thing in season 4. But I think he may end up loving Willow/Tara just as much. Going by his reactions to Buffy, The 100, and his favorite ship from Agents of SHIELD, I have a pretty good idea what kind of ships he loves, and what kind of ships he really doesn't care for (the typical cheesy "characters fall in love and are swearing eternal love in spite of barely knowing each other" TV ship, which is why it makes sense he didn't care for Bangel). I'm finding it harder to predict how he will feel about Spuffy in season 6, but since Buffy and Spike have a lot of moments of genuine closeness. bonding and friendship (something he likes in ships) in season 5/early season 6 and later in season 7, and he does like Xander/Cordelia and finds Bangel more interesting since he lost his soul, so he may end up liking it overall.

SpuffyGlitz
27-10-18, 01:19 AM
I watched his Phases reaction and love his reaction to the last Oz-Willow scene :heart: He'll probably be a little heartbroken when they eventually break up later, but I think he'll probably love Tillow as well. I like his ship tastes and his commentary in general. I love how he's come around to the Xander-Cordy relationship too & enjoyed the little Cordy-Willow convo in Phases. I also really love how he shares his thoughts after each episode - I've caught up with most of his videos and he's my new absolute favourite! Maybe even more than After Show Reactions whom I also love.

SpuffyGlitz
28-10-18, 10:21 PM
Loved this :heart: Cordy has finally won him over


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGbFX7_-WKM&t=0s&index=17&list=PL1FYEVeTeb-Msuh5CW6TqmXXo0qZhRs0u


I wonder how he'll react to Dawn and Faith and Spuffy and eventually Dark Willow.

Priceless
29-10-18, 10:10 AM
I love how one episode can make you love a character that you used to dislike. It's also a positive that he thinks Xander is a complex character, even though he knows a lot of his followers hate Xander. He's got 'Passion' next, which I am sure he'll love.

Priceless
30-10-18, 12:41 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdehWa9Lxc8

seekingoutfriday
01-11-18, 05:22 PM
Hells Bells came out on Patreon and SPOILERS I kind of feel she's over the show right now. Which makes sense, because it's season 6 and while I by no means believe it to be a bad season (it's in the middle for me) it's not one that you should binge imo. You need to have it spaced out, like how it aired, instead of watching multiple episodes at once. Otherwise it is draining.

vampmogs
01-11-18, 06:53 PM
Yeah I haven't watched her reaction to Hells Bells or Normal Again yet but I'm watching her reaction to Entropy and not only does she seem over it but she said at the start of the video that she didn't like Normal Again.

seekingoutfriday
01-11-18, 07:07 PM
Yeah I haven't watched her reaction to Hells Bells or Normal Again yet but I'm watching her reaction to Entropy and not only does she seem over it but she said at the start of the video that she didn't like Normal Again.

Which is a shame because Normal Again is one of the best in season 6 imo

a thing of evil
01-11-18, 07:28 PM
Hells Bells came out on Patreon and SPOILERS I kind of feel she's over the show right now. Which makes sense, because it's season 6 and while I by no means believe it to be a bad season (it's in the middle for me) it's not one that you should binge imo. You need to have it spaced out, like how it aired, instead of watching multiple episodes at once. Otherwise it is draining.

So you're saying that she's watching it wrong? :xd I've seen a lot of season 6 apologism over the years but this is certainly a new one.

HardlyThere
01-11-18, 07:34 PM
Hells Bells came out on Patreon and SPOILERS I kind of feel she's over the show right now. Which makes sense, because it's season 6 and while I by no means believe it to be a bad season (it's in the middle for me) it's not one that you should binge imo. You need to have it spaced out, like how it aired, instead of watching multiple episodes at once. Otherwise it is draining.

It was draining when it aired, too. Hells Bells was actually a turning point for a lot of fans back then, as well, with Xander and Anya's wedding being a potential bright spot in a depressive season. Buffy's line about it being a train was quite meta, whether the writers knew it or not.

You can write depressive storylines and even seasons but the characters have to get a win every once in awhile, especially given the timeframe S6 aired in. Otherwise it turns into a chore to watch, especially if you like the characters.

TriBel
01-11-18, 07:57 PM
It was draining when it aired, too. Hells Bells was actually a turning point for a lot of fans back then, as well, with Xander and Anya's wedding being a potential bright spot in a depressive season. Buffy's line about it being a train was quite meta, whether the writers knew it or not.

You can write depressive storylines and even seasons but the characters have to get a win every once in awhile, especially given the timeframe S6 aired in. Otherwise it turns into a chore to watch, especially if you like the characters.

I watched it when it first aired - I don't remember it being draining or a chore.

This line: "They were supposed to be my light at the end of the tunnel. I guess they were a train"? In what way is it meta?

HardlyThere
01-11-18, 08:27 PM
I watched it when it first aired - I don't remember it being draining or a chore.

Yes, you're right. The ratings didn't plummet in S6 with the depressive quality if it being cited as the reason to the point it was brought up by the actors and writers.


This line: "They were supposed to be my light at the end of the tunnel. I guess they were a train"? In what way is it meta?

Is it hard to understand, really? Fans looked to it as a positive for one of the gang. Turned out to be another hit.

seekingoutfriday
01-11-18, 08:34 PM
Yes, you're right. The ratings didn't plummet in S6 with the depressive quality if it being cited as the reason to the point it was brought up by the actors and writers.



Is it hard to understand, really? Fans looked to it as a positive for one of the gang. Turned out to be another hit.

The ratings didn't plummet though? It technically had a higher average rating, a 4.6 to season 5's 4.5

TriBel
01-11-18, 08:57 PM
Yes, you're right. The ratings didn't plummet in S6 with the depressive quality if it being cited as the reason to the point it was brought up by the actors and writers.



Is it hard to understand, really? Fans looked to it as a positive for one of the gang. Turned out to be another hit.

Did I say I was right? I gave my own recollection of my own feelings at that particular moment in time. Whether I'm right or wrong is immaterial. I really don't care whether the ratings plummeted - they didn't plummet because I switched off.


Is it hard to understand? Yes - or rather, it wasn't clear - otherwise I wouldn't have posed the question. What I wanted to know is whether you meant it reflected back/commented on that particular episode or the season as a whole. It's interesting because she's looking for the light and tunnels (particularly when trains are involved) tend to be horizontal. At the end she finds the light by emerging from something akin to a tunnel but vertical. Vertical/horizontal often figure the paradigmatic and syntagmatic axis of meaning - I can work with that. Tunnels/trains are also rather cliched metaphors for sexual intercourse - which could constitute a metacommentary on the whole of the season.

HardlyThere
01-11-18, 09:20 PM
Did I say I was right? I gave my own recollection of my own feelings at that particular moment in time. Whether I'm right or wrong is immaterial. I really don't care whether the ratings plummeted - they didn't plummet because I switched off.

You know, I agree. I like S6 and prefer the later seasons to the earlier. That doesn't change what public opinion was and still is to a great degree. People did not like the depressive quality and switched off., even with the hiatuses at the time of airing.

Criticisms of the depressive quality of S6 were far and wide. So, if you acknowledge one viewer does not an audience make, what was the point of the comment?


Yes - or rather, it wasn't clear - otherwise I wouldn't have posed the question. What I wanted to know is whether you meant it reflected back/commented on that particular episode or the season as a whole. It's interesting because she's looking for the light and tunnels (particularly when trains are involved) tend to be horizontal. At the end she finds the light by emerging from something akin to a tunnel but vertical. Vertical/horizontal often figure the paradigmatic and syntagmatic axis of meaning - I can work with that. Tunnels/trains are also rather cliched metaphors for sexual intercourse - which could constitute a metacommentary on the whole of the season.

I'm saying it because to many a viewer, the wedding was a potential bright light in the season. It's unclear how aware the writers were of the audience's real problem at the time, so I don't know if it was an intentional acknowledgement of them blindsiding the hopeful viewers. Joss historically has a tendency to pretend the root of criticism is something different than it was/is.

Even crawling out of the grave at the end, I wouldn't really call it meta or a shoutout to Hells Bells. It was literally an asspull by Joss to give Buffy something to do in the end because all he had plotted out was the Willow/Giles magic fight. S6 has a lot of possible writer meta stuff, but who can say if it was intended or they were just blissfully unaware. Fury once made a comment about a character being OOC and he flat-out said he was writing OOC and that was the point... Somehow it never occurred to this professional writer that there is no such thing as OOC on a Watsonian level. Once a character does something, it's automatically in-character. When writers say stuff like that, it takes wind out of my sail when looking at the text.

SpuffyGlitz
01-11-18, 09:26 PM
I personally loved S6 (and S5) the most when I first watched it - I didn't find it in the least draining. I enjoyed how much depth it brought.

Anyhow, I watched ASR's reactions to Hell's Bells, Normal Again and Entropy and enjoyed all of them. I don't see her as being 'over' the show (unless I'm misinterpreting what that means); to me being 'over' it would mean becoming indifferent to it. On the contrary she seems really invested in the characters and their lives/ journeys and reacts strongly when 'negative' things happen to them (Anya left at the altar/ Buffy gaslighted in Normal Again, etc.) That's probably how I'd react if I were watching these episodes for the first time ever.

But I feel bad when she has to preface every honest reaction with a defensive "i know I'll get a ton of hate for this, but..." kind of disclaimers. Because I think I understand where she's coming from in each of her reactions. I loved watching these seasons at a time when I hadn't joined any fandom - and am almost glad I didn't, because as enriching as the fandom can be, I could enjoy the episodes unfiltered with just my own thoughts.

S6 is a controversial season that many fans have passionate/polarising opinions about, I feel like there's no way her reactions will satisfy everyone - but I wish she didn't have to feel self conscious about her natural likes and dislikes as she watches each episode and reacts spontaneously. After Dead Things, she actually felt compelled to give a justification in defence of her reaction to the Spike-Buffy scenes in it ("I've had a lot of people on YouTube comment about how Spike didn't get Buffy's consent...but to me that's completely different...I've just had lots of people yell at me and tell me off for being hypocritical towards the situations but they're both completely different in my opinion.") And at the end of Entropy she said "I know I'll get a ton of hate for saying this..." etc etc re: her reaction to Xander, even though she states clearly how much she likes him as a character. I'm enjoying her reactions and hope she doesn't get too self conscious to say what she thinks.

seekingoutfriday
01-11-18, 09:28 PM
I personally loved S6 (and S5) the most when I first watched it - I didn't find it in the least draining. I enjoyed how much depth it brought.

Anyhow, I watched ASR's reactions to Hell's Bells, Normal Again and Entropy and enjoyed all of them. I thought she had very natural reactions. I don't see her as being 'over' the show (unless I'm misinterpreting what that means); to me being 'over' it would mean becoming indifferent to it. On the contrary she seems really invested in the characters and their lives/ journeys and reacts strongly when 'negative' things happen to them (Anya left at the altar/ Buffy gaslighted in Normal Again, etc.) That's probably how I'd react if I were watching these episodes for the first time ever.

But I feel bad when she has to preface every honest reaction with a defensive "i know I'll get a ton of hate for this, but..." kind of disclaimers. Because I think I understand where she's coming from in each of her reactions. I loved watching these seasons at a time when I hadn't joined any fandom - and am almost glad I didn't, because as enriching as the fandom can be, I could enjoy the episodes unfiltered with just my own thoughts.

S6 is a controversial season that many fans have passionate/polarising opinions about, I feel like there's no way her reactions will satisfy everyone - but I wish she didn't have to feel self conscious about her natural likes and dislikes as she watches each episode and reacts spontaneously. After Dead Things, she actually felt compelled to give a justification in defence of her reaction to the Spike-Buffy scenes in it ("I've had a lot of people on YouTube comment about how Spike didn't get Buffy's consent...but to me that's completely different...I've just had lots of people yell at me and tell me off for being hypocritical towards the situations but they're both completely different in my opinion.") And at the end of Entropy she said "I know I'll get a ton of hate for saying this..." etc etc re: her reaction to Xander, even though she states clearly how much she likes him as a character. I'm enjoying her reactions and hope she doesn't get too self conscious to say what she thinks.

Yeah, other reactors do the same thing. If I was a reactor, I don't think I'd look at the comments. You gotta do you!

Silver1
01-11-18, 09:29 PM
Yeah I haven't watched her reaction to Hells Bells or Normal Again yet but I'm watching her reaction to Entropy and not only does she seem over it but she said at the start of the video that she didn't like Normal Again.

Personally I don't think she really 'got' the series as It went on. Imo she was one of those who liked it simple and not dark like season 6 ended up being. She seems very wrapped up in more imo 'simpler' shows like your usual CW fare. Huh, no loss.

KingofCretins
01-11-18, 11:21 PM
She said she didn't like "institution" episodes and I think that's a fair lament about genre fiction. I was pleased that the ending of 6x17 made her unhappy because that meant it was doing its job and I'm glad the director got his way with Joss on that one.

Also think we've hit a definite wall. Last week she put up for episodes of "Angel". This week four episodes of "Buffy" would conclude with 6.19... but she hasn't uploaded in a few hours after 6.18. I'm guessing she lost her sh*t. I wouldn't be surprised if "Seeing Red" pushes her straight out of the series given her preferences and reactions and general aversion, literally, to even watching things that are unpleasant with these characters (she covers her eyes for most of Spike and Anya's sex). I think she'll have been halfway home to getting past the AR but that shot through the window is going to finish her.

SpuffyGlitz
01-11-18, 11:33 PM
She was so joyous at the end, with the reunion of Tillow in Entropy. My heart kind of breaks for her, knowing what's to come.

seekingoutfriday
02-11-18, 12:39 AM
She said she didn't like "institution" episodes and I think that's a fair lament about genre fiction. I was pleased that the ending of 6x17 made her unhappy because that meant it was doing its job and I'm glad the director got his way with Joss on that one.

Also think we've hit a definite wall. Last week she put up for episodes of "Angel". This week four episodes of "Buffy" would conclude with 6.19... but she hasn't uploaded in a few hours after 6.18. I'm guessing she lost her sh*t. I wouldn't be surprised if "Seeing Red" pushes her straight out of the series given her preferences and reactions and general aversion, literally, to even watching things that are unpleasant with these characters (she covers her eyes for most of Spike and Anya's sex). I think she'll have been halfway home to getting past the AR but that shot through the window is going to finish her.

She did post earlier in this week that the reactions this week for Buffy would be those three only. 6.19 wasn't included in that. I don't know if that means she already watched it and just NOPE'd out of that (understandable) or that's just how the reactions went and 6.19 will be next week. Either way, uh... it's going to be uncomfortable for everyone.

TriBel
02-11-18, 12:58 AM
Hardly There


Even crawling out of the grave at the end, I wouldn't really call it meta or a shoutout to Hells Bells.

I'm not sure (and I mean "I'm not sure" because I might not have made a connection had you not flagged it up). Just spotted this in Grave:

DAWN: Maybe one of the tunnels Spike uses is around here. Uh, we could use it to get to his place.
BUFFY: (digging) That's the last place on Earth we need to be.

vampmogs
02-11-18, 09:19 AM
Personally I don't think she really 'got' the series as It went on. Imo she was one of those who liked it simple and not dark like season 6 ended up being. She seems very wrapped up in more imo 'simpler' shows like your usual CW fare. Huh, no loss.

Eh, this would imply that the show was "simple" until it got to Season 6 which it wasn't. It was applauded for it's great and complex writing throughout the first 5 seasons too. I enjoy Season 6 but I think one could objectively even criticise the writing as being poorer that season than a lot of the seasons that came before it. Dark and Depressing doesn't necessarily equate to great or 'more complex' writing.

I think she may just find the depressive quality of the season to be tedious or emotionally draining. Or maybe she just doesn't think the episodes are as good anymore. She'd hardly be the first to feel either of those things and HardlyThere *is* right that Season 6 received major backlash when it originally aired for those exact things. She didn't seem particularly taken with The Trio and seemed mostly confused and underwhelmed by their appearance, she seems exasperated by the constant bleak storylines, and she seems a little sceptical and confused by some of the characterisations. They were all standard complaints from viewers at the time. We may just be seeing it in real time action from a reactioner which is actually fairly interesting, to be honest.

I disagree though that Season 6 is harder to binge watch than over a longer period of time like when it aired. I actually think Season 6 benefits from a binge watch as IMO what the writers were trying to do becomes more apparent when watching the episodes in quick succession. Season 6 was a tough slog waiting a week between episodes (or sometimes much longer due to constant breaks and hiatuses) as you were waiting a week just to be depressed or upset all over again. It was fairly draining and the show honestly felt lost as opposed to binging everything which provided the arc with more clarity IMO. Especially the rather tough slog in the middle there.


And at the end of Entropy she said "I know I'll get a ton of hate for saying this..." etc etc re: her reaction to Xander, even though she states clearly how much she likes him as a character. I'm enjoying her reactions and hope she doesn't get too self conscious to say what she thinks.

I think she's a nice person but I must admit I cringe at moralising of some of the characters. I think she feels she is being balanced or fair but IMO she has difficulty interpreting things objectively. For instance, she reacted really angrily to Xander accusing Anya of sleeping with Spike to punish her and she's right, Anya didn't sleep with Spike out of vengeance or spite. *But* she acts like the idea is absurd despite the fact Anya has spent the entire episode trying to get vengeance on Xander and have his friends wish gruesome and deadly curses on him. So the idea that Anya would never do something to hurt Xander in retaliation is extremely naive, to put it mildly. And I say this as someone who *hates* Xander's behaviour at the end of this episode and considers it one of his worst moments in the show.

Likewise, she criticises Buffy and Willow for not "caring" enough about Anya despite being very sincerely sympathetic to her pain and offering her comfort. Willow especially is uncharacteristically warm and friendly to Anya when first seeing her again given their usual relationship. It's not enough for Anya because they won't wish horrendous things against Xander. And she never criticises Anya for wishing Xander would die from agonising torture or by ceasing to exist anymore which makes whatever faults Buffy and Willow have in this episode surely look trivial in comparison. She never even mentions it. So I find some of her moral condemnation of the characters to be pretty cringeworthy because it's not remotely fair or balanced.

Stoney
02-11-18, 11:33 AM
I binge watched rather than seeing the show when it aired and S6 for me was the season that was the absolute most gripping and had me literally forego sleep and watch through the night to keep seeing more episodes. :biggrin1: I can't remember ever finding it a slog in the slightest, but just a totally captivating season with great stories and character journeys. I can see how the week waiting in particular could negatively affect how some people responded if they weren't enjoying it, but honestly I would have just been really impatient and eager to get to see the next ep if I'd had to wait. But then I didn't find it depressing even though that was how the characters were feeling and I could relate to aspects of that. I find it a shame not everyone felt the same simply because I loved it so much, but that's the way that these things go. There are so many different responses and subjective opinions to the characters/stories/seasons. Honestly, what the majority of viewers felt/thought is interesting but isn't the be all and end all as it clearly is also not reflective of what a large number of other people thought too. I have seen it suggested before that people that come to watch the show later and can binge watch seem to respond more positively, so perhaps that is true for a good portion of later viewers, I don't know. Regardless it was a change of tone for the show that some loved and some didn't and these show reactions just offer an opportunity to see one individual's response. Presumably some people will relate to how she is responding, what reactions she has going through, her preferences/thoughts/biases, and others won't. It doesn't sound like she is seeing it, the character paths, along the way like I did personally but there is something fascinating about hearing which points swing, twist and turn people's thoughts-in-progress. It doesn't seem like it is going to be a favourite season for her, but she might view where it ends positively and enjoy the follow on in S7 from it. :noidea:

Priceless
02-11-18, 06:53 PM
Of course I agree with ASR about Anya sleeping with Spike as revenge is absurd :D We all see the characters differently, so I do understand why people might think Anya would enact revenge on Xander, but I don't see her using sex as an act of revenge. I see Anya as a woman who has slept with one person in a thousand years, as far as we know. Prior to that, as a human, she had her heart broken and swore off men, romantic relationships, love and presumably sex, for a millennia. There is nothing in the text that tells us Anya had sex in all that time. Yes, she was a vengeance demon but not one who used sex, if anything, sex was what she was avenging.

I don't think there is anything in Anya's personality, that shows she would deliberately sleep with someone else as a revenge tactic. If anything, I think Anya would see using sex as a tool for vengeance as making her the same as the men she enacted revenge on. I also don't think she thought that sleeping with Xander would particularly hurt him, that's why the punishments she wanted were all about physical pain, because she didn't believe emotional pain wouldn't actually hurt him because he'd destroyed their emotional attachment.

flow
02-11-18, 08:34 PM
vampmogs :
I actually think Season 6 benefits from a binge watch as IMO what the writers were trying to do becomes more apparent when watching the episodes in quick succession.

I`m not sure about that. As I said before, I think it Needs time to be processed. now, i binge-watched season 6 myself. But I had the Advantage of knowing what I was up to (because I had read Spoilers and watched YouTube-vids) and I onlöy saw BtVs at the time. Shannan is watching five or six Shows at the same time, one of them being AtS season 3, which isn`t all daffodils and teddybears eitehr.

vampmogs:
I think she's a nice person but I must admit I cringe at moralising of some of the characters. I feel like I want to hug her :o Not because she is such a nice Person (I do think she is) but because I feel, she Looks like a deer in headlights.

vampmogs:
And she never criticises Anya for wishing Xander would die from agonising torture or by ceasing to exist anymore which makes whatever faults Buffy and Willow have in this episode surely look trivial in comparison.

I have to admit that I did not find Anya`s behavior questionable when I first watched this. I`ve wished bad things would happen to guys who treated me badly in my life. It did not ocurr to me on my first watch that it is differently, when Anya wishes the same thing because in her world those wishes become reality and don`t just remain to be in the mind of a woman that has been hurt. Therefore I`ll give Shannan a pass for that.

flow

HardlyThere
02-11-18, 09:29 PM
Hardly There



I'm not sure (and I mean "I'm not sure" because I might not have made a connection had you not flagged it up). Just spotted this in Grave:

DAWN: Maybe one of the tunnels Spike uses is around here. Uh, we could use it to get to his place.
BUFFY: (digging) That's the last place on Earth we need to be.

Now I'm the one that isn't sure what you're getting at.


I have to admit that I did not find Anya`s behavior questionable when I first watched this. I`ve wished bad things would happen to guys who treated me badly in my life. It did not ocurr to me on my first watch that it is differently, when Anya wishes the same thing because in her world those wishes become reality and don`t just remain to be in the mind of a woman that has been hurt. Therefore I`ll give Shannan a pass for that.

flow

I think she has a right to her immediate emotional reaction. Where she loses me is trying to manipulate Buffy, Will and Dawn into doing it for her.

SpuffyGlitz
02-11-18, 11:45 PM
vampmogs:

It did not ocurr to me on my first watch that it is differently, when Anya wishes the same thing because in her world those wishes become reality and don`t just remain to be in the mind of a woman that has been hurt. Therefore I`ll give Shannan a pass for that.


I agree, I would add -- I thought Shannon was reacting in totality to what she'd seen, having witnessed what Anya says in this private moment of grief below - she explains exactly where she's coming from about the 'vengeance':


ANYA
This whole time, I've been coming on
all hell bent and mad. Wanting his
head you know?
SPIKE
Yeah.

Anya looks near tears.

ANYA
When, really, I can't sleep at night,
thinking - it has to be my fault,
somehow-


I think, taking that into account, her reaching for 'vengeance' was a way of trying to reclaim her old sense of 'power' or trying to claim some dignity from her old identity because being human has scared and hurt her (as D'Hoffryn says at the end of Hell's Bells), and then finding that she's failing at it. Multiple times during her "session" with a vengeance client, she fails to grant her wishes and keeps cutting her off every time she's about to make a wish. She's unable to make any of her own 'wishes' against Xander come true - which I took less literally and more in keeping with the metaphor that there's no real vengeance in her at this point, just heartbreak. There's really no other reason I can think of that they'd highlight her incompetence at actualising vengeance here.

Incidentally - Xander tries to resort to his own version of "vengeance" in response to heartbreak - so it isn't something new to the Buffyverse. In S2, Xander says to Amy:



XANDER
The point is - I want her to want me.
Desperately. Then I can break up with
her and subject her to the same hell
she's putting me through.
AMY
I don't know, Xander. Intent has to
be pure with love spells.
XANDER
Right. I intend revenge. Pure as the
driven snow.


- - - Updated - - -

I'm willing to bet that any ruffled feelings towards Xander Shanon feels in this episode will have completely melted by the end of Seeing Red though - when he and Buffy re-unite in the lawn outside. It's a pretty touching scene.

Priceless
03-11-18, 06:32 AM
I have to admit that I did not find Anya`s behavior questionable when I first watched this. I`ve wished bad things would happen to guys who treated me badly in my life. It did not ocurr to me on my first watch that it is differently, when Anya wishes the same thing because in her world those wishes become reality and don`t just remain to be in the mind of a woman that has been hurt. Therefore I`ll give Shannan a pass for that.

I'm still on Anya's side and find her behaviour absolutely believable and understandable. She may have regretted her actions, Xander left her at the alter, the least that could happen to him was having his insides boiled :D

vampmogs
03-11-18, 08:14 AM
I think, taking that into account, her reaching for 'vengeance' was a way of trying to reclaim her old sense of 'power' or trying to claim some dignity from her old identity because being human has scared and hurt her (as D'Hoffryn says at the end of Hell's Bells), and then finding that she's failing at it. Multiple times during her "session" with a vengeance client, she fails to grant her wishes and keeps cutting her off every time she's about to make a wish. She's unable to make any of her own 'wishes' against Xander come true - which I took less literally and more in keeping with the metaphor that there's no real vengeance in her at this point, just heartbreak. There's really no other reason I can think of that they'd highlight her incompetence at actualising vengeance here.

Anya is genuinely shocked when her wish that "Xander was never born" didn't come true. She seriously attempted to wipe him from existence. She then tells Halfrek that she tried "every curse she knew on [Xander]" and is genuinely perplexed as to why they hadn't worked. It's only when Halfrek tells her that she can't grant wishes on behalf of herself that she realises she needs to try and manipulate someone else into making a wish against him. These weren't things Anya was saying in jest. It's one thing to make such comments when there's no danger of them *actually* coming true but Anya intended for them to *actually* happen and she sincerely believed she had the power to kill him.

I felt a great deal for Anya in Hells Bells and I think Xander handled the situation really terribly to stand her up at the alter. But Xander did not deserve to *die* for what he did and Anya legitimately tried to *kill* him. It's psychotic and it's exactly what Willow feared would happen back in Triangle when she admitted that she worried Anya would seriously harm Xander in retaliation if he ever broke her heart because "it's what [she] does" and that's a legitimate concern given Anya's history and what she does indeed end up doing in this episode. I mean, Anya learns nothing from Hells Bells when her wedding day was sabotaged by one of her victims. She transformed a man into a demon and subjected him to eternal torture in a hell dimension because he was cheating on his girlfriend, for crying out loud. Her punishments very rarely fit the crime and rather than face up to her past coming back to bite her she doubles down on that kind of behaviour and tries to repeat it all over again.

I like Anya. And I agree with you that she's not the same person she was no matter how much she tries to be. I also agree with that turning back to vengeance was her way of trying to cope. But Anya is a largely immoral and, frankly, often pretty dangerous character. She never had the excuse that Angel and Spike did she committed her atrocities without a soul. Not only does D'Hoffryn state that Vengeance Demons have souls but there's absolutely no great distinction between demon!Anya and human!Anya. Once Anya is turned human she tries to have Willow killed in Dopplegangland and aligns herself with a bunch of vampires attacking and killing people at The Bronze. Pre-demon she reacted to Olaf cheating on her by transforming him into a monstrous Troll and states in Something Blue that she was also cursing and mutilating other men as well. And there's numerous examples of Anya talking wistfully and fondly about all the men she murdered whilst human and apparently now one of the "good guys." And whilst Selfless is a great and ultimately positive moment in Anya's development it does unequivocally prove that as a demon she was always more than capable of deciding from right and wrong and feeling remorse if she felt inclined to.

So I don't feel particularly inclined to give Anya the benefit of the doubt in Entropy. Whilst at the end of the episode she does stop Spike from wishing something on Xander that's meant to be a significant moment precisely because she was genuinely attempting to harm him throughout the episode. The cliff-hanger to end Act 1 is Anya attempting to curse him, after all. I can understand why she turned back to vengeance and sympathise with her, even, but that's not the same as justifying her behaviour. And whilst Xander was wrong to stand her up at the alter and whilst Xander was even *more* wrong to lash out so uglily like he does at the end of this episode, Anya's actions throughout Entropy are pretty evil IMO.


Incidentally - Xander tries to resort to his own version of "vengeance" in response to heartbreak - so it isn't something new to the Buffyverse.

That's one of Xander's grossest moments in the show. But he still wasn't trying to actually *kill* someone. I've raked Xander over the coals for B,B&B on more than one occasion (I think he's disgusting for trying to hurt Cordy like that) but even that doesn't compare to Anya trying to kill him or to get his friends to inadvertently harm him. I mean, there's a reason Anya get's a redemptive storyline in Selfless. She's really dark here.

Sosa lola
03-11-18, 12:08 PM
I agree 100% with Vampmogs here. I can never justify Anya's attempt to murder Xander in Entropy. Her actions, sadly watered down by comedy, were incredibly evil and wrong.

The comparison with BB&B is interesting because then 17 year old Xander was dumped on the most important day of lovers' everywhere, Valentine's Day, and wanting vengeance on Cordelia by cursing her was wrong as well. The episode punishes Xander by backfiring the spell.

Priceless
03-11-18, 03:32 PM
I totally disagree with vampmogs. I can totally justify Anya wishing Xander were dead. Anyone who can't simply has not had their heart broken. Her actions are completely understandable and if I were a woman dumped at the alter, I'd be wishing my ex dead too, and sincerely wishing I had the powers to make it true!

Sosa lola
03-11-18, 05:46 PM
I totally disagree with vampmogs. I can totally justify Anya wishing Xander were dead. Anyone who can't simply has not had their heart broken. Her actions are completely understandable and if I were a woman dumped at the alter, I'd be wishing my ex dead too, and sincerely wishing I had the powers to make it true!

Let me put it this way: Do you think Xander was justified in cursing Cordelia in BB&B? He was also dumped on a very special day: Valentine's Day. Not to mention he was a 17 year old teenager and Cordelia was his first ever girlfriend after years of rejections.

Priceless
03-11-18, 05:59 PM
Let me put it this way: Do you think Xander was justified in cursing Cordelia in BB&B? He was also dumped on a very special day: Valentine's Day. Not to mention he was a 17 year old teenager and Cordelia was his first ever girlfriend after years of rejections.

Xander didn't love Cordy. Anya loved only Xander. The two situations are very different. But no, I don't think Xander was justified in cursing Cordy, because she hadn't done anything near as bad as leaving him at the alter. Cordy hadn't declared undying love for Xander, then . . . err. . . changed her mind. They were two teens who were dating. It's a very different situation.

I am afraid I feel no pity for Xander in either of these situations, especially when I'm asked to pity him because he his first girlfriend dumped him. He didn't turn to magic to make Cordy love him because he loved her, he turned to magic to make her suffer, and to hurt her as she had hurt him. Xander hadn't had his heart broken by Cordy, he didn't even love her, and certainly didn't want to spend eternity with her. Anya loved Xander completely, he was her whole life (not a good thing, but the way it was)

Sosa lola
03-11-18, 06:54 PM
Xander didn't love Cordy. Anya loved only Xander. The two situations are very different.

There are other differences, too. Xander was a 17 year old kid. Anya was a grown up 1000 year old woman. Xander's decision was impulsive and in the heat of the moment. Anya had two weeks to calm down and think things through, and she still went to Xander's apartment to kill him. It was fortunate for him that she can't grant her wishes, but at that time she thought she can kill him and she went there to kill him. That's way worse than Xander making Cordelia love him just to dump her so she'd feel his pain. He also made it clear that the Cordelia curse should be temporary, not eternal.

For the record, I'm not on either Xander or Anya's side. Vengeance that causes the other party physical and mental harm, let alone death, is a huge no no in my book. Cordelia didn't deserve to be cursed and Xander didn't deserve to be killed.

IMO, Cordelia handled a similar situation better than both of them. She didn't try to curse or kill Xander after he cheated on her. She settled for making him jealous by pretending to kiss another boy and later insulting him every time she sees him (though putting down Buffy while she was at it was unfair).



I am afraid I feel no pity for Xander in either of these situations, especially when I'm asked to pity him because he his first girlfriend dumped him.

You misunderstood me. I didn't ask you to pity him in my post. What I was going for was showing you that it was understandable for him as well. He was young and Cordelia was his first girlfriend. You said that you justify Anya killing Xander because she had her heart broken. It's the same as justifying Xander cursing Cordelia because he, too, had his heart broken. Love doesn't justify murder.


He didn't turn to magic to make Cordy love him because he loved her, he turned to magic to make her suffer, and to hurt her as she had hurt him.

Xander wouldn't have reacted that way if he didn't have feelings for Cordelia. She hurt him. He wanted to hurt her back. Xander hurt Anya. Anya wanted to KILL him. Huge difference.


Xander hadn't had his heart broken by Cordy, he didn't even love her, and certainly didn't want to spend eternity with her.

Why do you say he wasn't heartbroken? He was clearly crushed by her dumping him. He bought her a nice present and wanted their relationship to move forwards. He was so nervous about talking to her and even had Buffy pick him something nice to wear. He clearly liked her.


Anya loved Xander completely, he was her whole life

That's not a good reason to murder him. It doesn't justify killing him and later asking his friends to kill him on her behalf.

Xander also loved Anya completely, she was his whole life. It was why he left her at the altar. It still doesn't justify what he did.

Both characters make bad choices. I understand that Anya was hurt, but I can't justify murder for heartbreak, especially since Xander wasn't being a dick when he left her in Hell's Bells.

Anya could have wished Xander to be in her place and have his heart broken. Heck even having sex with Spike to get back at Xander would have been a better punishment in my book than killing him.

Priceless
03-11-18, 07:24 PM
Anya had two weeks to calm down and think things through,

Two weeks to get over that? To be made to look like a fool infront of everyone you care about in the world. To have the man you love deny your worth to him. To have your whole life destroyed. It would take me 2 decades of therapy to actually leave the house again, never mind get over it :lol:


It was fortunate for him that she can't grant her wishes, but at that time she thought she can kill him and she went there to kill him.

i may be the only woman in the world who feels like this, but I'd want him dead. I'd want him unborn. I'd want his insides to boil. I'd want him to die horribly . . . of course there is every chance I'd regret it afterwards, but right then and there, it's what I'd want, which is why I have every sympathy for Anya. My god, that poor woman.


He also made it clear that the Cordelia curse should be temporary, not eternal.

Yes, because he didn't love her, he just wants her to suffer. I expect Anya wants Xander to suffer for all eternity precisely because she does love him.


It's the same as justifying Xander cursing Cordelia because he, too, had his heart broken. Love doesn't justify murder.

I do not believe Xander ever loved Cordy. He didn't want the spell to last for eternity because he didn't want to be with her for eternity because he didn't love her. Xander's spell was not made because he had his heart broken, it was because a girl showed him up. He'd bought her a nice necklace and she dumped him on Valentine's Day, which wasn't very nice, but I don't think it had much to do with love.


Xander wouldn't have reacted that way if he didn't have feelings for Cordelia. She hurt him. He wanted to hurt her back. Xander hurt Anya. Anya wanted to KILL him. Huge difference.


If someone you fancy hurts you, it's embarrassing and hurtful. If someone you love, who you are going to marry and spend the rest of your life with, dumps you on the day of your wedding, in front of everyone you know, it's a very different situation. For me, Anya's reaction is totally understandable and proportionate. I'd have felt exactly the same.


That's not a good reason to murder him. It doesn't justify killing him and later asking his friends to kill him on her behalf.


I agree, but she didn't kill him. We don't know how she would have reacted if she had killed him. As with those students she killed, she may have instantly regretted it and asked D'Hoffryn to lift the spell. We just don't know. But in that moment, with Xander standing in front of her, saying 'oh I still love you, just not enough to marry you' (I'm paraphrasing obvs :D) I'd have stabbed him in the neck with a fork, so really he got off lightly :lol:

flow
03-11-18, 07:37 PM
Priceless, maybe you would wish you boyfriend dead, when he leaves you at the altar. But you wouldn`t make it come true. If someone dumped you at the altar, would you go after him with an axe and chop off his head? I don`t think you would. I actually want to say, I know, you wouldn`t do that.

That is the difference between your wish and Anya`s wish. Your wish is just a wish that will never come true. Anya`s wish is like going after Xander with an axe and chopping off his head. That`s because her wishes can come true.

flow

Priceless
03-11-18, 07:54 PM
Priceless, maybe you would wish you boyfriend dead, when he leaves you at the altar. But you wouldn`t make it come true. If someone dumped you at the altar, would you go after him with an axe and chop off his head? I don`t think you would. I actually want to say, I know, you wouldn`t do that.

That is the difference between your wish and Anya`s wish. Your wish is just a wish that will never come true. Anya`s wish is like going after Xander with an axe and chopping off his head. That`s because her wishes can come true.

flow

In the moment I make the wish, I want it to happen. I want him unborn and I want him dead. The moment after, I may feel differently, but in that moment I want it to happen. Anya may have regretted it, but I completely understand why she'd wish it and why she'd want it to be true.

vampmogs
03-11-18, 10:35 PM
I totally disagree with vampmogs. I can totally justify Anya wishing Xander were dead. Anyone who can't simply has not had their heart broken. Her actions are completely understandable and if I were a woman dumped at the alter, I'd be wishing my ex dead too, and sincerely wishing I had the powers to make it true!

Mm no. I've had my heart broken. I'm sure many people on here have. I've never felt that the person who broke my heart deserved to *die.* And I've certainly never tried to *kill* them. That's insanity. That's criminal.

I mean, there was a man in California who recently snuck into his ex-girlfriend's home and set her on fire whilst she slept because she had broken up with him. In September last year a woman hacked her husband to death with a machete because she found out he was cheating on her. Your argument basically suggests that both of those people deserved agonising torture or to be butchered to death because their partner's were heartbroken.

A woman who makes harmless wishes ("Oh I wish he were dead!") as a way of venting or dealing with her pain is *completely* different than a woman who then hires a hitman to kill the man who scorned her. Anya wasn't making harmless wishes. Anya was intending for those things to actually come true. As a society, we don't even support or condone torture when dealing with terrorists who are responsible for massacring innocent men, women and children and yet you feel Xander deserved to have his insides boiled, his genitals mutilated, his eyes removed, his intestines ripped apart, or even death, just because he left someone at the altar?

And this is all without taking to account that Anya has a long thousand year history of committing extreme atrocities against men and doling out punishments that never fit the crime. Or that she reacted to Olaf cheating on her by transforming him into a monster. Xander isn't an isolated incident for Anya. She didn't resort to such extreme measures because Xander in particular hurt her so badly. She's done this before. It's also not the first time she'd have granted reckless wishes that would have greater consequences and implications for innocent bystanders. When she granted Cordelia's wish it resulted in countless innocent deaths including not only Cordelia but Buffy, Xander, Willow and Angel's as well. Here, she planned to wish Xander out of existence ("And I wish you were never born!") without thinking about how that would impact others such as Buffy, whose life Xander saved in Prophecy Girl.

HardlyThere
04-11-18, 02:21 AM
It's bothersome that Anya is never called to task for it. Every other display of vengeance is characterized as wrong, yet Anya's is funny. It's glossed over. The same way her part in the failure of the relationship is glossed over.

Priceless
04-11-18, 06:29 AM
Mm no. I've had my heart broken. I'm sure many people on here have. I've never felt that the person who broke my heart deserved to *die.* And I've certainly never tried to *kill* them. That's insanity. That's criminal.

I mean, there was a man in California who recently snuck into his ex-girlfriend's home and set her on fire whilst she slept because she had broken up with him. In September last year a woman hacked her husband to death with a machete because she found out he was cheating on her. Your argument basically suggests that both of those people deserved agonising torture or to be butchered to death because their partner's were heartbroken.

A woman who makes harmless wishes ("Oh I wish he were dead!") as a way of venting or dealing with her pain is *completely* different than a woman who then hires a hitman to kill the man who scorned her. Anya wasn't making harmless wishes. Anya was intending for those things to actually come true. As a society, we don't even support or condone torture when dealing with terrorists who are responsible for massacring innocent men, women and children and yet you feel Xander deserved to have his insides boiled, his genitals mutilated, his eyes removed, his intestines ripped apart, or even death, just because he left someone at the altar?

And this is all without taking to account that Anya has a long thousand year history of committing extreme atrocities against men and doling out punishments that never fit the crime. Or that she reacted to Olaf cheating on her by transforming him into a monster. Xander isn't an isolated incident for Anya. She didn't resort to such extreme measures because Xander in particular hurt her so badly. She's done this before. It's also not the first time she'd have granted reckless wishes that would have greater consequences and implications for innocent bystanders. When she granted Cordelia's wish it resulted in countless innocent deaths including not only Cordelia but Buffy, Xander, Willow and Angel's as well. Here, she planned to wish Xander out of existence ("And I wish you were never born!") without thinking about how that would impact others such as Buffy, whose life Xander saved in Prophecy Girl.

Well you are a better person than me vampmogs. I've often wished people a short trip to hell, and not just exes :lol: Anya has every right to be angry imo, and every right to wish Xander dead. And he doesn't die, so I don't understand the outcry.

Two women a week are murdered in this country by partners or ex partners, (or their children). Murder is a hopeless disgusting thing that of course no-one in their right minds would condone in the real world. And to suggest Anya is the same as the murderers we see in real life is ridiculous. Buffy is a fantasy show, where people come back from the dead all the time. Anya herself asks for one of her vengeance spells to be overturned, and it is.

I think there is a lack of compassion if you don't understand the depth of Anya's feelings and how badly she's been hurt. She has nowhere to go, nothing to turn to except vengeance and you want to take that away from her too, because poor Xander, we must care about his feeling first and foremost. I still have every sympathy for her, and to be honest, if Xander had been 'unborn' in that moment I'd have been happy, and I think it might have lead to an excellent episode similar to the The Wish, but perhaps darker.

vampmogs
04-11-18, 07:33 AM
And he doesn't die, so I don't understand the outcry.

You don't understand why people think attempted murder is wrong? Or why people would think it's wrong to coerce or trick other people into unintentionally murdering their loved one? :headscratch:

The intent was there. She attempted to kill him multiple times throughout the episode. People go to jail all the time for the very thing Anya did throughout Entropy. It's called "attempted murder." It's pretty much universally condemned by society as being immoral and wrong. I'm honestly perplexed by what you find so hard to understand about that :confused3:


And to suggest Anya is the same as the murderers we see in real life is ridiculous. Buffy is a fantasy show, where people come back from the dead all the time. Anya herself asks for one of her vengeance spells to be overturned, and it is.

Anya has literally killed thousands of people and up until Selfless *none* of them have ever been brought back to life. She's a murderer. There is nothing ridiculous about calling her that. It's a fact.

And since when is it wrong to condemn characters for committing murder because it's a "fantasy" show when there's plenty of characters in the Buffyverse who have entire redemption arcs centred around the fact that they murdered people and it was wrong? There's even an entire spinoff show based around a guy trying to atone for his horrible murderous sins. Why should Anya be any different?

It's also not as simple as you make it seem to have Anya ask for one of her wishes to be reversed. A reversal of her wish requires the "life and soul of a vengeance demon." It was implied the vengeance demon would have to give up their own life in trade. D'Hoffryn killed Halfrek out of spite, remember? No matter how Anya plays this there's blood on her hands whether it be Xander's, someone else's, or even her own.


I think there is a lack of compassion if you don't understand the depth of Anya's feelings and how badly she's been hurt.

I have compassion and can perfectly understand what she was going through. However, standing someone up at the altar is not a crime punishable by death. The fact that you feel it's even up for debate is disconcerting to say the least. If you think it does, try arguing that in the court of popular opinion or, hey, even regular court, and see how far it gets you. It's quite possible to have compassion and empathy for someone and still have rationality as well.


She has nowhere to go, nothing to turn to except vengeance and you want to take that away from her too, because poor Xander, we must care about his feeling first and foremost.

Yes, call me crazy but I want to take vengeance away from her so she can't go around murdering people who have "hurt her feelings." I'm wacky that way! :err:

I must say this has got me very curious as to how you interpreted Selfless. You must've thought the characters were all crazy for having a problem with Anya massacring 12 fraternity boys because they hurt somebody's feelings. You must've thought that the girl sobbing and cowering in a closet should've been overjoyed by the fact that the fraternity douches were killed because they humiliated her instead of her being utterly traumatised as she was. You must've been quite perplexed as to why Anya was so guilt-ridden over what she had done because, according to you, there's nothing wrong with killing someone if they've emotionally hurt you badly? She was justified, yeah? Like what did you even think that episode was about if there's nothing wrong with Anya's behaviour?

Silver1
04-11-18, 08:32 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_FOZrIR0mg

And yes, she confirms this is her main source of income.

Sosa lola
04-11-18, 12:21 PM
And he doesn't die, so I don't understand the outcry.

The outcry is because Anya intended to KILL Xander believing she could. She attempted to murder him. More than once.

It's different when I wish that my bullies would burn in hell knowing nothing would happen to them. Anya believed that when she wishes things, they happen. She wished Xander death and torture. It wasn't just venting. She did it believing it'll happen. That's wrong.



I think there is a lack of compassion if you don't understand the depth of Anya's feelings and how badly she's been hurt.

What happened to her was awful. I sympathize greatly. I just don't agree with her decision to murder Xander.



She has nowhere to go, nothing to turn to except vengeance

I disagree. She had Buffy, Willow, Tara and Dawn to turn to. She had her job. She chose vengeance because it was the "easy option," not the right one. She gave in to her hurt and anger and decided to murder the guy she's supposed to be in love with. There were other options. There were people who cared about her. She just put a blind eye to everything she had and chose evil.



because poor Xander, we must care about his feeling first and foremost.

Anya wasn't going to hurt Xander's feelings. She was going to KILL him. That's wrong.

If only Anya was going to hurt Xander's feelings, because that's all he did to her: hurt her feelings. He didn't maim her. He didn't disable her. He didn't attempt to rape or murder her. Anya should have punished him the same way, by hurting his feelings. Perhaps a wish about Buffy and Willow abandoning him the same way he abandoned her. This punishment would have fit the crime.


I still have every sympathy for her,

We all do. What happened to her was awful. What we're objecting was the way she handled her pain, by attempted to murder Xander.


and to be honest, if Xander had been 'unborn' in that moment I'd have been happy, and I think it might have lead to an excellent episode similar to the The Wish, but perhaps darker.

I completely agree. :D A world without Xander would have been horrible and dark. I even posted a challenge about it in Elysian Fields (https://dark-solace.org/elysian/modules/challenges/challenges.php?chalid=2123).

KingofCretins
04-11-18, 05:17 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_FOZrIR0mg

And yes, she confirms this is her main source of income.

Which is not unusual for any number of YouTubers or Twitch streamers. You pronounce this as though it is somehow damning?

Hell, if I thought I could get into this racket I would.

EDIT: Yeah, Anya objectively tried to kill Xander there but I'm kinda fuzzy on when we are and aren't supposed to be caring about that. Spike objectively tried to kill both of them in "The Yoko Factor" and it was sort of an awshucks gag. There is a built in hyperbole to the moral universe the characters inhabit.

Silver1
04-11-18, 05:58 PM
Which is not unusual for any number of YouTubers or Twitch streamers. You pronounce this as though it is somehow damning?

No, but If you remember a while back folks were jumping on me when I first pointed that out. They all do it as a supplement to their income. It's not done for love alone.

flow
04-11-18, 06:10 PM
No one jumped on you, when you pointed out, that she gets money for it. I only pointed out that she wasn`t getting extremly rich by doing YouTube vids. I also did point out that Youtubers hardly get more than some small pocket money. Heck, this girl still lives at home. It`s not that she has to pay rent or costs of living. She probably paid for her new PS 4, that she mentioned, by whatever she makes out of the vids. But for that she does vids seven days a week.

She also says that she is exhausted and needs time off to recharge her batteries. The exhaustion might explain her changed attitude in the last vids.

flow

Silver1
04-11-18, 06:32 PM
I'm not getting involved in this argument yet again. Sorry.

buffylover
05-11-18, 10:26 AM
@Priceless to be truthful I think everyone on here knows where you are coming from because I do. I think some people are just moving goalposts to make Anya look worse but sadly it doesn't fool me. Because I'm with you on this one Priceless. I personally think Xander deserved the (anger) received from Anya. Xander gave her that motive to be and to get angry he did just humiliated her and broke her that kind of thing could break someone mental state.

And what is Buffy trying to say here?

BUFFY: Anya, Xander's my friend. I know what he did was wrong, and ... if it had happened to me, I'd-
ANYA: (hopefully) Wish his penis would explode? << :lol:

Then she finally states it with Spike;

ANYA: This whole time, I've been coming on all ... hell-bent and mad. Wanting his head, you know?
SPIKE: Yeah.
ANYA: When, really, I ... (tearfully) can't sleep at night, thinking it ... has to be my fault, somehow...
SPIKE: (shakes his head) Shh...

The poor girl was just hurt and I don't blame her. To be truthful I was actually hoping he dies off I absolutely hate Xander! he did this with two girls now! :down: :cussing:

Sosa lola
05-11-18, 12:56 PM
@Priceless to be truthful I think everyone on here knows where you are coming from because I do. I think some people are just moving goalposts to make Anya look worse but sadly it doesn't fool me.

It's better if we don't make this discussion personal. I can see how it went there a few times before and if I said something that felt like an attack against Priceless, I apologize. Let's keep the discussion strictly about the characters.

We are not dissing Anya because we hate Anya. We are talking about a woman who believes she's capable of killing someone and attempted to kill that person. Killing someone over hurt feelings is wrong. Killing someone is wrong. Period. That was our discussion.

Warren had murdered Tara and the show still treated Willow going after him and killing him as wrong. So I really struggle to see what's so right about Anya killing Xander just because he left her at the altar.

No one is saying that Anya should get together with Xander and forgive him. No one is arguing that Anya has no right to vent and hate Xander. She can hate him and diss him and put him down (the same way Cordelia did after he cheated on her). I gave suggestions to punishments that are more suitable to Xander's crime.

Everyone here agrees that Xander deserves to be punished. What we're all against here is Anya's attempt of murder.





I personally think Xander deserved the (anger) received from Anya.

We all agree with this. None of us said that Anya shouldn't be angry with Xander. He deserves her anger.

TriBel
05-11-18, 01:29 PM
Killing someone over hurt feelings is wrong. Killing someone is wrong. Period. That was our discussion.

But...what about inadvertently or indirectly being the cause of someone's death because you chose to avoid (psychic) pain to yourself (ie. hurt to your feelings). Sorry - I've phrased that badly. I'm thinking of Buffy in Innocence - she can't kill Angelus and the following week Theresa dies. Buffy didn't pull the trigger but she left a loaded gun lying about.

Sosa lola
05-11-18, 01:47 PM
But...what about inadvertently or indirectly being the cause of someone's death because you chose to avoid (psychic) pain to yourself (ie. hurt to your feelings). Sorry - I've phrased that badly. I'm thinking of Buffy in Innocence - she can't kill Angelus and the following week Theresa dies. Buffy didn't pull the trigger but she left a loaded gun lying about.

Being the cause of someone's death when you did not intend to kill them is extremely different from attempted murder and I'm thinking more of Xander summoning Sweet here than Buffy's inability to kill Angelus.

Buffy couldn't bring herself to kill Angelus because she was in love with Angel and it's understandable. I blame those deaths on Angelus because he was the one who killed, not Buffy.

TimeTravellingBunny
05-11-18, 04:33 PM
I'm sorry, but how and why are we discussing if attempted murder is OK, because someone hurt your feelings?! How is this a topic for discussion?!


But...what about inadvertently or indirectly being the cause of someone's death because you chose to avoid (psychic) pain to yourself (ie. hurt to your feelings). Sorry - I've phrased that badly. I'm thinking of Buffy in Innocence - she can't kill Angelus and the following week Theresa dies. Buffy didn't pull the trigger but she left a loaded gun lying about.

I'm sure you are aware of the commonly held beliefs in the developmental psychology, that children in early stages of moral development hold the view that severity of crimes depends on their result rather than the intent behind them, - which is why a child that age would have trouble understanding why attempted murder is considered a more serious crime than accidental killing. However, I don't think you or anyone else here really needs to be ponted out the distinction and the reason why. We don't need this as an intellectual exercise, when it is something that every adult (or teenager, or a preteen) is, I'm sure, well aware of.

vampmogs
06-11-18, 08:28 AM
I'm sorry, but how and why are we discussing if attempted murder is OK, because someone hurt your feelings?! How is this a topic for discussion?!

I know right.... Honestly, in all my years of fandom, this genuinely may be one of the weirdest discussions I've ever had :blink:

buffylover
06-11-18, 09:21 AM
I'm sorry, but how and why are we discussing if attempted murder is OK, because someone hurt your feelings?! How is this a topic for discussion?!

I'm loving how I'm causing such a reaction I feel so special. :lol:



Everyone here agrees that Xander deserves to be punished.

You sound like Anya. :lol:

Firstly I just want to clarify;

I'm not discussing if murder or attempted murder is wrong or right. :lol:

This is all Xander's fault, remember that. This makes Xander look even far worse IMO. So I can totally sympathise with Anya sorry. It feels to me, you guys are still moving the goal posts to make Anya look far worse and that's my opinion. I think I understand her pain which is why I think you are using it as a weapon against Anya to defend Xander to make her look worse because you actually thought Anya was going to kill, really? I thought it was humorous. I just agree with Anya's pain to that allowance of ranting and curse her hatred.

I don't like how you guys have this habit of making leaving her at the altar, not a big deal. Come on!!! It's soul destroying!! The humiliation. You're just a Xander fan because, in reality, I don't think you would be as calm. Tell the truth. Even Buffy thought it was torture.

BUFFY: No. (shakes head) Look, I - I know what he did was wrong. God, if it happened to me, I ... I-I, it must have been torture.

If she wanted Xander dead she could have easily killed him with her vengeance strength and granted Spike's wish. Again she even admits it to Spike.

ANYA: This whole time, I've been coming on all ... hell-bent and mad. Wanting his head, you know?
SPIKE: Yeah.
ANYA: When, really, I ... (tearfully) can't sleep at night, thinking it ... has to be my fault, somehow...
SPIKE: (shakes his head) Shh...

My point she was heartbroken which caused by Xander to have such thoughts.

HardlyThere
06-11-18, 10:07 AM
My point she was heartbroken which caused by Xander to have such thoughts.

So? Everyone who's ever done anything wrong is driven to that place. Was Xander justified in trying to curse Cordy? He was driven there by her actions. Was Willow justified in her attempt to curse Oz? He broke her heart. Was Warren justified in trying to kill Buffy? She drove him to it. The bathroom? Everyone is justified in their own minds.

What people criticize Anya for is not being hurt or even throwing venom at him. Had she just blurted out "I wish you never were born!" without intent, there would not be an issue. If she expressed a bit of horror at what could have happened, it would not be an issue. Instead, it was an attempt to curse him. She's confused it didn't work. She then goes on to try to manipulate Xander's friends to curse him instead.

buffylover
06-11-18, 10:25 AM
I don't really understand what you are saying here, of course, everyone had pain. It's a strong emotion. Everyone is different. :p

Again this felt genuine to me somebody would say this. To me, it felt actually a genuine rant! an outburst. Remember again Xander caused this all!

And she is so naive to forget her powers? really? I didn't buy that either. Again she could easily have killed him by physical strength or granted Spike's wish.

and this...

ANYA: This whole time, I've been coming on all ... hell-bent and mad. Wanting his head, you know?
SPIKE: Yeah.
ANYA: When, really, I ... (tearfully) can't sleep at night, thinking it ... has to be my fault, somehow...
SPIKE: (shakes his head) Shh...

My point she was heartbroken which caused by Xander to have such thoughts.

HardlyThere
06-11-18, 11:00 AM
We've reached the point that I'm beginning to think there's trolling on some level at play here.

buffylover
06-11-18, 11:15 AM
https://image.ibb.co/mYSpJV/36f2968e54b5caff51d4e94ad30c4eb8.jpg

:p

Sosa lola
06-11-18, 11:34 AM
If she wanted Xander dead she could have easily killed him with her vengeance strength

And that's what she did!

ANYA: (demon voice) And I wish you were never born!

XANDER: I know this is all coming out wrong.

Anya morphs back into human face, frowning in confusion. She turns around to look at Xander.

Why is Anya confused? Because Xander is not dead. Attempted murder.

Willow from Buffy
06-11-18, 12:16 PM
Anya could have bludgeoned Xander to death with her super strength, but that is harder to do emotionally than simply 'wishing' it and seeing it happen. Would Willow have cast the spell on Oz if it did not require her to use a photograph, so that she looked at it and felt bad?

Anya wants to kill Xander, but she wants to do it in an easy way.

vampmogs
06-11-18, 12:21 PM
Anya could have bludgeoned Xander to death with her super strength, but that is harder to do emotionally than simply 'wishing' it and seeing it happen. Would Willow have cast the spell on Oz if it did not require her to use a photograph, so that she looked at it and felt bad?

Anya wants to kill Xander, but she wants to do it in an easy way.

Not to mention that, let's face it, in Season 6 the writer's hadn't even decided that Anya *had* super strength yet. Asking why Anya didn't kill Xander with her super strength is like asking why Anya didn't use her strength to battle Willow in Two to Go instead of screaming out for help when Willow was choking her. The writer's obviously didn't decide Anya should have super strength until Season 7 (*g*).

Sosa Lola is 100% correct that the script unambiguously shows that Anya intended to kill Xander. This is from the actual Shooting Script;

We pull around to see Anya, still facing away from Xander, has gone DEMON-FACED, furious, seething.

ANYA
(demon voice)
And I wish you were never born!

BLACK OUT.

OMITTED.

END OF ACT ONE

Act Two
INT. XANDER'S APARTMENT- NIGHT

On Anya, still in demon face. Satisfied. Then:

XANDER
I know this is all coming out wrong.

We see Xander still stands behind Anya. She whips around, HUMAN-FACED again. Disbelieving.

Her intent was to kill him. She's shocked and in a state of disbelief when she realises he's still standing behind her. There's nothing ambiguous about it.

buffylover
06-11-18, 01:39 PM
And that's what she did!

ANYA: (demon voice) And I wish you were never born!

XANDER: I know this is all coming out wrong.

Anya morphs back into human face, frowning in confusion. She turns around to look at Xander.

Why is Anya confused? Because Xander is not dead. Attempted murder.



I'm not discussing the attempted murder here I'm just saying I agree with her pain.

Oh, when she said 'really' I thought she sounded 'sincere'. IMO!

Here is me thinking that the show was intending for her to be dumb about her powers and abilities into wishing to let the audience know we have a really 'upset' woman. Who just got her heart broken remember by Xander! which I don't blame her outrage.

Even Buffy agrees with me. :lol: And plus you don't counter this because you can't Because I can contradict and make my opinion more valid. Sorry.

ANYA: This whole time, I've been coming on all ... hell-bent and mad. Wanting his head, you know?
SPIKE: Yeah.
ANYA: When, really, I ... (tearfully) can't sleep at night, thinking it ... has to be my fault, somehow...
SPIKE: (shakes his head) Shh...

I think we are just going around in circles here... :roll:

Willow from Buffy
06-11-18, 02:11 PM
Not to mention that, let's face it, in Season 6 the writer's hadn't even decided that Anya *had* super strength yet. Asking why Anya didn't kill Xander with her super strength is like asking why Anya didn't use her strength to battle Willow in Two to Go instead of screaming out for help when Willow was choking her. The writer's obviously didn't decide Anya should have super strength until Season 7 (*g*).


True! Her powers may be slowly coming back to her. However, if Anya was truly psychotic, she could easily kill Xander with a frying pan or something. Killing someone with magic is bad, of course, but doing it with your firsts takes a special kind of person. A person who could kill someone just by wishing it would be very dangerous :p

Sosa lola
06-11-18, 02:33 PM
I'm not discussing the attempted murder here I'm just saying I agree with her pain.

And I've repeatedly said that I agree with her pain, but not the attempted murder. That's what we've all been saying.


However, if Anya was truly psychotic, she could easily kill Xander with a frying pan or something.

Anya wanted to kill him with the only way she knows and wants: vengeance. Like all the unfaithful men she had tortured and murdered, she wants him dead with a wish, either from her or his friends and later Spike.

Her vengeance strive had mellowed after she had a moment of solace with Spike and eventually she realized she didn't want to kill him after all. That does not cancel the fact that she did indeed attempt to kill him before the Magic Box scene with Spike.

buffylover
06-11-18, 02:39 PM
That's fair enough, Sosa I'm just going to not continue it now, but at least I got my opinion across. :)

Priceless
06-11-18, 03:49 PM
You don't understand why people think attempted murder is wrong? Or why people would think it's wrong to coerce or trick other people into unintentionally murdering their loved one?

The intent was there. She attempted to kill him multiple times throughout the episode. People go to jail all the time for the very thing Anya did throughout Entropy. It's called "attempted murder." It's pretty much universally condemned by society as being immoral and wrong. I'm honestly perplexed by what you find so hard to understand about that

This is a tv show. Get over it. Virtually everyone on the show is a murderer. People on that show have murdered for less. And as a Spike fan, I'm used to people telling me I'm a 'rape apologist' and there's something wrong with me for loving Spike. This is just another version of that. I still say Go Pussycat, Kill Kill :lol: (to quote Xander)


Anya has literally killed thousands of people and up until Selfless *none* of them have ever been brought back to life. She's a murderer. There is nothing ridiculous about calling her that. It's a fact.

Then why so shocked an upset, when Xander strips her of everything, that she turns back to what she knows? It's completely understandable. What other option did she have?


I have compassion and can perfectly understand what she was going through. However, standing someone up at the altar is not a crime punishable by death. The fact that you feel it's even up for debate is disconcerting to say the least. If you think it does, try arguing that in the court of popular opinion or, hey, even regular court, and see how far it gets you. It's quite possible to have compassion and empathy for someone and still have rationality as well.


You can be rational and empathetic, but considering you've never lost it with an ex, I don't you are capable of empathising. For that, you need to understand and share the feelings, and you do not. You can sympathise, but that is not empathy.




To suggest that Anya's feeling were simply hurt is to downplay what Anya has been through, and it shows your lack of understanding of her situation. Can you not imagine the absolute humiliation she went through? Her whole world was Xander and he destroyed that. There was so little of Anya left, to survive she had to revert back to Anyanka, the vengeance demon. I truly hate Xander for what he did to her, and I find it incredible that you don't understand why she would wish him death an pain.

- - - Updated - - -


The outcry is because Anya intended to KILL Xander believing she could. She attempted to murder him. More than once.


I have absolutely no problem with that at all. This is a fantasy tv show, and I think the show may have been improved if Xander had been 'unborn' at that moment


It's different when I wish that my bullies would burn in hell knowing nothing would happen to them. Anya believed that when she wishes things, they happen. She wished Xander death and torture. It wasn't just venting. She did it believing it'll happen. That's wrong.


It might be wrong, but that's not my conern in this disagreement, my concern is that it is completely understandable and I would do the same thing.


What happened to her was awful. I sympathize greatly. I just don't agree with her decision to murder Xander.


But you have no idea what would have happened if her wish had been granted. Personally as soon as Xander doubled over in absolute physical agony, Anya may have regretted the wish. But at the moment of making it, I completely understand where she's coming from and I have absolute empathy for her.


I disagree. She had Buffy, Willow, Tara and Dawn to turn to. She had her job. She chose vengeance because it was the "easy option," not the right one. She gave in to her hurt and anger and decided to murder the guy she's supposed to be in love with. There were other options. There were people who cared about her. She just put a blind eye to everything she had and chose evil.


'Murder the guys she's supposed to be in love with', what about that guy? Isn't he meant to be in love with her? But instead of treating her with love, kindness and respect, he abandons her on their wedding day, runs away, leaves her to pick up the pieces and then, to add insult to injury, comes back to her an begs her to . . . what? . . . . sleep with him again? Live with him again? Date him, with the occasional hand job? But none of that will turn him into his dad, but actually putting a ring on it, now that's gonna turn him into a monster.

My God, I want to smite him down, so no wonder Anya, the woman he's destroyed, does too! We've seen Xander do some terrible things over the course of the last 5 seasons, but this, treating Anya like a toy he can discard when it gets too scary, and to do it in such a mean and immature way . . . this is the worst thing he ever does.

Thank God after this, Xander starts to improve. They've taken him as low as he can go and they start building him up.

- - - Updated - - -


We are not dissing Anya because we hate Anya. We are talking about a woman who believes she's capable of killing someone and attempted to kill that person. Killing someone over hurt feelings is wrong. Killing someone is wrong. Period. That was our discussion.


You are 'dissing' Anya because you love Xander. We understand that, and can sympathise. I defend Spike to the nth degree and it often means making other characters look worse because of it. :D

I also think the characterisation of Anya's situation as 'hurt feelings' is pretty low. You reduce what she is going through to make it seem that what Xander did wasn't so bad. I think that's where our disagreement really starts. I believe that what he did was absolutely despicable, especially when this is the woman he proposed to and is meant to love beyond all measure. This is not simply a case of 'hurt feelings', this is breaking down the spirit of a human being, destroying everything she is , until she has nothing left but to turn back to vengeance. Xander deserves everything he should have got, because his actions lead to the return of Anyanka.


Everyone here agrees that Xander deserves to be punished. What we're all against here is Anya's attempt of murder.


We're all certainly not against Anya's attempted murder! As I've said, and will continue to say, I totally understand her need for vengeance, my God, she's the poster girl for why vengeance demons were necessary in the first place :lol:

Willow from Buffy
06-11-18, 04:41 PM
Anya wanted to kill him with the only way she knows and wants: vengeance. Like all the unfaithful men she had tortured and murdered, she wants him dead with a wish, either from her or his friends and later Spike.

Her vengeance strive had mellowed after she had a moment of solace with Spike and eventually she realized she didn't want to kill him after all. That does not cancel the fact that she did indeed attempt to kill him before the Magic Box scene with Spike.

I agree that she wanted to kill him, but I believe that if someone tied Xander to a chair and handed Anya a heavy rock, she would probably think twice about it. It is why Sean Bean in Game of Thrones insists that the man who passes judgement should carry out the sentence.


We're all certainly not against Anya's attempted murder! As I've said, and will continue to say, I totally understand her need for vengeance, my God, she's the poster girl for why vengeance demons were necessary in the first place :lol:

Really? That's all it takes? Anya got dumped in a horrible way, but when Xander decleares in "Storyteller" that he has "apologised enough" there is a part of me that thinks good on him.

Priceless
06-11-18, 05:11 PM
Really? That's all it takes? Anya got dumped in a horrible way, but when Xander decleares in "Storyteller" that he has "apologised enough" there is a part of me that thinks good on him.


Oh yes, that's really all it takes. Anya is the vengeance demon for scorned women, her behaviour, when you remember who she was, makes perfect sense to me and Xander deserves it:D

Storyteller is a year later, just about, and I am sure Xander has apologised a lot. And so he should. I hope that young Joyce maybe gets stood up on a date or some such and runs home to tell her dad . . . wonder how daddy Xander will deal with that one?

Silver1
06-11-18, 05:17 PM
This is a tv show. Get over it. Virtually everyone on the show is a murderer. People on that show have murdered for less. And as a Spike fan, I'm used to people telling me I'm a 'rape apologist' and there's something wrong with me for loving Spike. This is just another version of that. I still say Go Pussycat, Kill Kill (to quote Xander)


...and so say all of us. :D

Willow from Buffy
06-11-18, 05:35 PM
I hope that young Joyce maybe gets stood up on a date or some such and runs home to tell her dad . . . wonder how daddy Xander will deal with that one?

I hope he sighs and tells her that boys can be jerks but that one day she will find one that appreciates her and even he may perhaps one day let her down but that she should not let any such thing make her feel less valuable and less worthy of love. I do not hope he tracks down and kills the guy.

Priceless
06-11-18, 05:40 PM
I hope he sighs and tells her that boys can be jerks but that one day she will find one that appreciates her and even he may perhaps one day let her down but that she should not let any such thing make her feel less valuable and less worthy of love. I do not hope he tracks down and kills the guy.

:lol: I also hope he's learnt his lesson, but not easy with a crying teenage girl sobbing into his shirt, expecting her dad to make it better. I imagine him looking over Joyce's head, pleadingly, to Dawn, who shakes her head and signals 'no way husband dear, this one's all on you' :lol:

Sosa lola
06-11-18, 05:48 PM
You are 'dissing' Anya because you love Xander. We understand that, and can sympathise.

What? So if I said that I disagree with Anya's attempted murder it means I'm dissing her? I have said plenty of times that Anya's pain is valid and that Xander deserves to be punished. What I have said a billion times was that I'm against killing him. That's it.

I don't get the logic that by loving Xander I'm dissing Anya. Just because I love Xander it doesn't mean I'm blind to his faults and flaws. I can't count how many times in this discussion have I said that Xander deserves to be punished and deserves Anya's anger. The argument you're giving is so black and white and I don't appreciate reducing my argument to "you love Xander so of course you hate Anya."




I think that's where our disagreement really starts. I believe that what he did was absolutely despicable, especially when this is the woman he proposed to and is meant to love beyond all measure. This is not simply a case of 'hurt feelings', this is breaking down the spirit of a human being, destroying everything she is , until she has nothing left but to turn back to vengeance. Xander deserves everything he should have got, because his actions lead to the return of Anyanka.

I agree with you that what happened to Anya was awful.

I disagree that Anya had no choice but vengeance.

I can also make an argument that Xander had no choice but to run away in Hell's Bells. What he went through was also "breaking down the spirit of a human being" but I still hold him responsible for the choice he made. Anya is a grown woman and she should also be held responsible for her bad choices.




We're all certainly not against Anya's attempted murder!

Okay then, Xander should have been killed. Buffy and Willow should congratulate Anya on a job well done. It'd be better if Dawn made the wish to kill Xander. She'd be the hero of all feminists everywhere.

Priceless
06-11-18, 06:13 PM
I don't get the logic that by loving Xander I'm dissing Anya. Just because I love Xander it doesn't mean I'm blind to his faults and flaws. I can't count how many times in this discussion have I said that Xander deserves to be punished and deserves Anya's anger. The argument you're giving is so black and white and I don't appreciate reducing my argument to "you love Xander so of course you hate Anya."


That isn't my argument. My argument is that you don't see Anya's pain, and you reduce it to 'hurt feelings', as a way of somehow making what Xander did not really so bad. I don't think I say you 'hate' Anya, because I don't think you do. But you do continually reduce Anya's pain, and refer to her actions as attempted murder so Xander's actions don't look so bad - and of course to you they don't and to me they are despicable.


I can also make an argument that Xander had no choice but to run away in Hell's Bells. What he went through was also "breaking down the spirit of a human being" but I still hold him responsible for the choice he made. Anya is a grown woman and she should also be held responsible for her bad choices.


I agree Anya should be held responsible for her choices, and I support her choice to curse Xander and wish him dead in that moment. It's beyond me how anyone couldn't. She's heartbroken, and he just stands there, lets her walk back into the hall, to tell people what's happening. Where is Xander? Does he run from the hall? He's shown as being so brave facing demons and in that moment he runs away and leaves it to Anya to pick up the pieces. Such cowardice.


Okay then, Xander should have been killed. Buffy and Willow should congratulate Anya on a job well done. It'd be better if Dawn made the wish to kill Xander. She'd be the hero of all feminists everywhere.


As I've said, I imagine the wish being enacted and within seconds Anya would want to withdraw it, but that would bring forward what happens in Selfless. I think what we get is okay, and shows Anya's further alienation from the people around her.

I've made my point and I stand by it. I won't be visiting this discussion again, it's far too stressful :lol:

Klaus Kartoffel
06-11-18, 06:15 PM
This is a tv show. Get over it. Virtually everyone on the show is a murderer. People on that show have murdered for less. And as a Spike fan, I'm used to people telling me I'm a 'rape apologist' and there's something wrong with me for loving Spike. This is just another version of that. I still say Go Pussycat, Kill Kill :lol: (to quote Xander)

Errr, okay; if it's "just" a TV show and vampmogs ought to "get over it", why your absolute disproportionate overreaction to Xander leaving Anya at the altar in the first place? I mean this is a message board and not your Tumblr account. Get over it. It's just a TV show.


Then why so shocked an upset, when Xander strips her of everything, that she turns back to what she knows? It's completely understandable. What other option did she have?

The shock is actually not about what Anya attempted to do to Xander but skewed moral principles presented on this thread. What's more, Anya is not a little kid and bears actual accountability. One option she had is to NOT ATTEMPT TO MURDER XANDER.


You can be rational and empathetic, but considering you've never lost it with an ex, I don't you are capable of empathising. For that, you need to understand and share the feelings, and you do not. You can sympathise, but that is not empathy.

Priceless, why are you telling strangers what they have or don't have experienced and whether they are capable of feeling empathy, let alone know the difference between empathy and sympathy? I remember vampmogs clearly stating they actually *had* their heart broken a few posts above but even if they didn't... WTF?


To suggest that Anya's feeling were simply hurt is to downplay what Anya has been through, and it shows your lack of understanding of her situation. Can you not imagine the absolute humiliation she went through? Her whole world was Xander and he destroyed that. There was so little of Anya left, to survive she had to revert back to Anyanka, the vengeance demon. I truly hate Xander for what he did to her, and I find it incredible that you don't understand why she would wish him death an pain.

No one's downplaying Anya's hurt. We just keep it in perspective and don't histrionically sacralize it.


I have absolutely no problem with that at all. This is a fantasy tv show, and I think the show may have been improved if Xander had been 'unborn' at that moment

It's a fantasy show which resonates with the real world. Especially in terms of morality.

No one was put off with *Anya*, actually, but with your stated moral judgements. You also repeatedly made very clear that it's not just born out of a "it's just a TV show. Chill, Bro!" attitude but your *actual* attitude. You don't like (or want) others to challenge your views? Then don't proclaim them on a message board to begin with. :confused3:

Priceless
06-11-18, 06:25 PM
Klaus Kartoffel I refer you to my previous post :hug:

I've made my point and I stand by it. I won't be visiting this discussion again, it's far too stressful

buffylover
06-11-18, 06:26 PM
Yeah, Priceless it's clearly upsetting everyone. :lol:

flow
06-11-18, 07:22 PM
After Show Reactions is taking a break at the moment and maybe that`s what we all should do as well.

flow

vampmogs
06-11-18, 08:45 PM
Klaus Kartoffel I refer you to my previous post :hug:

I've made my point and I stand by it. I won't be visiting this discussion again, it's far too stressful

Don’t worry. Next time I see you complaining about ANY character (Xander in Hell’s Bells, Riley, Willow, Wesley, Angels treatment of his son which apparently makes you “despise” him - anyone) I’ll make sure to remind you that “it’s just a TV show. Get over it.” Every time.

Blatant hypocrisy. But not surprised.

Priceless
10-11-18, 05:49 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZAw6diQJQY

- - - Updated - - -

After Show Reactions tweeted this earlier today, with the image of Willow's eyes turning red . . .

I dont accept this.
This is not okay.
No.
I deny this happening. Nope.

Think she's watched Seeing Red :(

SpuffyGlitz
10-11-18, 07:00 PM
Yes, she also tweeted:

ok i feel hallow as f****
finished both buffy season 6 and angel season 3 tonight.

Which means she must have also seen Villains, Two To Go, and Grave.
She'll probably post her reactions next week since she said she won't be posting until Nov 11th.

Priceless
10-11-18, 07:07 PM
Yes, she also tweeted:

ok i feel hallow as f****
finished both buffy season 6 and angel season 3 tonight.

Which means she must have also seen Villains, Two To Go, and Grave.
She'll probably post her reactions next week since she said she won't be posting until Nov 11th.

She's probably shattered if she binged watched them. I'm looking forward to seeing her reactions. It's a lot to process.

Stoney
10-11-18, 09:59 PM
I found S6 fantastic and the last few episodes an exciting rollercoaster which was emotionally draining but not in a bad way. It was exciting and I was just enthused by the end of it and eager to keep watching. I still can't find enough interest to watch these reaction vids, they're just not for me I don't think. And I mean any/generally, not these specifically.

a thing of evil
10-11-18, 11:58 PM
I felt underwhelmed by season 6 on first viewing. It just didn't really feel like Buffy to me at the time. Now, when I re-watch it I think it's basically trash.:bleh: :evil:

It has this early 00s Post-9/11 US edginess to it that I find just extremely corny.

vampmogs
11-11-18, 12:47 AM
It has this early 00s Post-9/11 US edginess to it that I find just extremely corny.

It's funny you say that as I once read an interesting analysis of Season 6 from a TV Critic who speculated that September 11 had a major influence on the season's tone and may have been partly responsible for how bleak and downcast it was. By the sounds of things, I think Whedon had always intended for Season 6 to be quite dark (he'd planned out some of the plot in Season 5) but it wouldn't surprise me that September 11 rattled the writers so much. Apparently it was evident throughout a number of TV show's at that time.

My feelings about Season 6 have changed a bit over the past year or so and, funnily enough, these reaction videos (not just After Show Reactions but others as well - such as Torchwood Boy) are partially responsible. The things I like about it I still like but rewatching the series through the lenses of a new fan and their reactions to it has opened my eyes more to the season's flaws. There's a noticeable increase in their "Wtf?" expressions and them questioning both the plot and the character's decisions that just wasn't as frequent in Seasons 1-5. And I don't really buy the idea that the reactioners are simply too stupid to understand the season or that the writing has suddenly become too complex. A lot of their dumbfounded reactions are perfectly valid. The writers really begin stretching some of the characterisations here and some of the plotting just isn't as tight. I came to the conclusion that having been so familiar with the show and having had rewatched it so many times (more times than I count), it made it easier for me to make rationalisations for where the writing fails and naturally fill in gaps that shouldn't have been there to begin with. I also found after my own rewatch of Season 5 and then the beginning of Season 6 that neither the tone or the characterisations of the characters flowed on as organically from Season 5 as I had remembered. Willow suffers from this in particular who suddenly has a pretty radical and inexplicable descent into addiction (which is another issue entirely) that just doesn't feel earned from Seasons 1-5. She's robbing people of their memories and shifting teenagers into alternate dimensions in the space of just 5 episodes after The Gift. There's also this really noticeable shift in how the show presents the Scoobies in Season 6 that is incredibly jarring in comparison to Season 5 wherein the entire tone of the show (the writing & camera work etc) feels very negatively skewed towards them. This was particularly noticeable in the first few episodes with Afterlife being the prime example.

I still like Buffy's arc in Season 6 but it's pretty much the season's saving grace for me.

seekingoutfriday
11-11-18, 03:09 AM
My feelings about Season 6 have changed a bit over the past year or so and, funnily enough, these reaction videos (not just After Show Reactions but others as well - such as Torchwood Boy) are partially responsible. The things I like about it I still like but rewatching the series through the lenses of a new fan and their reactions to it has opened my eyes more to the season's flaws.

That's interesting, because i feel like I read that people who watched Buffy as teens/young adults and didn't like season 6 actually like it a lot more as they watch it again as adults.



I still like Buffy's arc in Season 6 but it's pretty much the season's saving grace for me.

That's why I watch season 6, for Buffy's arc. Willow's arc is botched up (magic isn't her addiction, they blew that characterization) and I'm still ticked Anya and Xander didn't get married. I have some issues with Spike, depending on the day lol. But Buffy? Loved it.

KingofCretins
11-11-18, 04:16 AM
I love how at the end of his video Liam Duke is speculating on the ritual, says to the effect of "I'm sure that's how Angel's soul will be restored" and I just smile. Ah the innocence of those who haven't really decoded Joss Whedon yet. You're right my dude, the ritual IS how his soul will be restored. I'm sure it'll be a huge relief to everyone :)

American Aurora
11-11-18, 05:14 AM
vampmogs:


My feelings about Season 6 have changed a bit over the past year or so and, funnily enough, these reaction videos (not just After Show Reactions but others as well - such as Torchwood Boy) are partially responsible. The things I like about it I still like but rewatching the series through the lenses of a new fan and their reactions to it has opened my eyes more to the season's flaws. There's a noticeable increase in their "Wtf?" expressions and them questioning both the plot and the character's decisions that just wasn't as frequent in Seasons 1-5. And I don't really buy the idea that the reactioners are simply too stupid to understand the season or that the writing has suddenly become too complex. A lot of their dumbfounded reactions are perfectly valid. The writers really begin stretching some of the characterisations here and some of the plotting just isn't as tight.

But aren't their reactions tainted by the knowledge that they're "acting" for others in watching the episode? The psychology of audience reaction dictates that the more an audience knows that it's being watched by others, the more critical and extreme they become. If they're not hyper-critical, if they're not picking out flaws, if they're not making the performance entertaining for those who watch these videos, then who would watch them? So I think they're a lot more exaggerated than if they were simply watching them in their living room alone.

The psychology of an audience is interesting - I watch people "watching" performances all the time. It's not a question of being too "stupid" to understand something, but a question of context. A Christian fundamentalist will have a very different reaction to Angels in America than a jaded gay New Yorker. A 20 year old will have a very different reaction than a 50 year old to a new pop album. But most importantly, as one becomes more acquainted with something, one is MORE LIKELY to find flaws. This is why older people feel that pop music has declined, that movies aren't as good as they used to be, why television shows have lost their edge.

There's often a romantization of one's first experience with a work - the first few seasons of shows, first movies (pre-Sequels), first novels - the viewer is recalling their first reaction to the work. As it drags on, their comfort level grows until they actually become more and more critical of the work because they feel they "know" what it should be like - rather than what it is.

This isn't to say that Buffy Season Six isn't more flawed than previous seasons - but just to say that their reaction isn't necessarily based on the same criteria as when they first watched the show as novices. It's extremely complicated. I'd be curious to see what someone would think who watched Buffy Season Six before they watched the first three seasons and see their reaction then - that would be telling, I think. They might find the earlier seasons pallid in comparison. It's all about anticipation and expectation.

vampmogs
11-11-18, 06:45 AM
But aren't their reactions tainted by the knowledge that they're "acting" for others in watching the episode?

Sure. The reactors definitely have to 'play up' their reactions to make them more exaggerated and thus more engaging for the audience. However, I do think that for the most part their reactions, whilst exaggerated, are rooted in truth. If they 'play up' being confused it's because they're confused. If they 'play up' being excited it's because they're excited. If they 'play up' being sad it's because their sad etc. So I think it's telling if there's a lot more cases of scrutiny and moments of "wtf?" or "why would they do that?" It's also worth pointing out that watching the full 45 minute reaction videos is a very different experience than the 'clip show' reaction vids that you get on Youtube. Most of these guys can't fake 'being on' for the full 45 minutes so it often comes across as far more genuine when watching them whereas the Youtube videos are a 9 minute cut down of their 'best' bits.


I'd be curious to see what someone would think who watched Buffy Season Six before they watched the first three seasons and see their reaction then - that would be telling, I think.

If you watched Season 6 before watching the first 3 seasons (or in my case the first 5 seasons as most of my complaints was how Season 6 did/didn't flow on from *Season 5* specifically) then, no, I suspect people wouldn't have the same complaints that I do as they have no no idea who these characters are at all nor of the mythology of the series/the plot etc. You could literally have Willow slashing baby's throats in the first 10 minutes and these people would have no reason to assume it's OOC because they've never seen anything that comes before. Likewise, if you watched Season 6 prior to Season 1-5 then you wouldn't understand why I find it so hard to fathom how Willow turns into an addict whose wiping people's minds/shifting them out dimensions/using magic for the most mundane tasks etc despite not being like this at all just 5 episodes earlier. Nor would it stand out to you how differently the series depicts the Scoobies overall as opposed to the previous 1-5 seasons because you have nothing to compare it to.

Silver1
11-11-18, 08:55 AM
And I don't really buy the idea that the reactioners are simply too stupid to understand the season or that the writing has suddenly become too complex.

Oh I dunno, some of my gripes are when they appear confused with the simplest of things. Stuff that is part of the fundamental visual langue of modern TV, and subliminally they must know. God these people watch enough of it after all.

I find this difficult to explain, but part of it is I often find myself stunned at how certain people appear to lack simple concentration skills (after show being being the one most guilty of this imo) and end up having to watch back because she admits she was reading another screen.

So we end up with, to quote my old Mum "Oh thats a funny ending" and I'm thinking, well If you hadn't talked through most of it you'd know what happened. :lol:

SpuffyGlitz
11-11-18, 09:53 AM
I like watching their reactions but in no way does that take away from my appreciation (and love) for S6. It's funny - I've heard a lot of people say S6 is appreciated more deeply when you're an adult but I don't even think that's true.

I was in my early teens when I watched it and I especially loved S6 and found the darkness/complexity riveting and the whole season compelling (actually even hopeful). You had so many characters grappling with their deepest fears and coming into their own. I had just changed schools and enjoyed some other 'fluffier' shows targeting teenage audiences but Buffy (esp Buffy S6) always felt like home. To me that's when the show came into its own (though I loved all the seasons.) I wasn't in the least drained/ shattered. Maybe because I'm always aware when I'm watching TV that it's TV and I'd seen a ton of films all my life- but also because I was glad they were exploring character journeys and moral dilemmas. It felt complex enough to represent the experience of actually living in this world, which is not what most TV is about. I felt it didn't patronise me (as a teen) about adolescence. I didn't even find S6 the darkest of Buffy seasons - I just felt the way they explored darkness was a little different than before - and had more depth - the season doesn't flinch at doing this. I enjoyed the humour of this season more than the (sometimes) cutesy humour of early seasons - though those had their darker moments too.

Some of my favourite, unforgettable S6 moments (I couldn't even say why, really) are Buffy at the end of Afterlife talking to Spike outside in the shade, Buffy crying to Tara at the end of Dead Things, Buffy invisible in Gone, the whole of Hell's Bells, the whole of OMWF, that last shot of Anya looking up at D'Hoffryn (I just think that's a stunning shot), the Xander-Dark Willow embrace at the end of Grave, even bits from DoubleMeat Palace. I also feel like a lot of S6 is incredibly, beautifully cinematic - and plays with vantage points in a way that fascinated me, even then.

I'm still cautious about guessing reactions until they've actually been posted - these are tweets - but I still wouldn't conclude that having a strong reaction to character events necessary equals an "I hate S6" stance (I don't think it necessarily means that) - but we'll see.

TriBel
11-11-18, 10:58 AM
American Aurora


But aren't their reactions tainted by the knowledge that they're "acting" for others in watching the episode? Yes - it's performance. I don't criticise them for it but you can't deny it's performance. The observer is being observed - and knows it. I'm not convinced the observer can escape observation (the gaze) even when s/he is alone and in the privacy of her/his own home. In reaction videos the effect is (at least) doubled - conscious and unconscious, a frame within a frame. Plus...for many of them, the "at home" backdrop is an illusion - they're AT WORK. Personally, I think they should all be forced to give their reactions against a still from Chaplin's Modern Times just to remind us. ;)

Vampmogs:


And I don't really buy the idea that the reactioners are simply too stupid to understand the season or that the writing has suddenly become too complex.

American Aurora


This isn't to say that Buffy Season Six isn't more flawed than previous seasons

I don't think reactioners are stupid.:nono: Seriously, I find the writing in S6/7 far more complex than the earlier seasons. The plot isn't tight but (IMO) that's because it's writing against the notion of plot (at the very least, questioning) in the widest sense possible (it's concern is with the identity of the plotter(s) - and I've just realised the significance of that statement in relation to Life Serial). "Character" - I tend to think more in terms of self and subject, which is always (IMO) more fragmented than "character". Seriously (and politely) Aurora, what's a flaw? Doesn't a flaw depend on the notion of a perfect form? Is a flawed diamond flawed if the "flaw" occurs naturally or is it just "different"? I've decided S6 is the written equivalent of the platypus. :D I find it debilitating but I think that's because I'm finding the world in general debilitating at the moment. :thud:


A Christian fundamentalist will have a very different reaction to Angels in America than a jaded gay New Yorker.

Angels in America? TL-DR :D (joke!) Seriously, I saw the encore showing of the National Theatre production and 8 hours was heavy going. I've never been so grateful to have owned a HBO dvd.


But most importantly, as one becomes more acquainted with something, one is MORE LIKELY to find flaws. This is why older people feel that pop music has declined, that movies aren't as good as they used to be, why television shows have lost their edge.

I'm old. As regards pop music, I think EVERYTHING that isn't Leonard Cohen is an aberration. Aside from that, I find good/bad in all eras. For me, if something is an "object of study", I'm likely to see its "flaws" but I also see its strengths - often they're one and the same thing. What I find most interesting is where it throws my own flaws into relief.

vampmogs
11-11-18, 11:02 AM
I have absolutely no problem with people loving Season 6. I can understand why it could speak to people so profoundly and Buffy's arc in particular is very relatable to me. I totally get it.

But I will say that I do get exasperated when people defend it on the basis of it's 'complexity' as that can (intentionally or not) imply that what came before it wasn't as complex. Which IMO couldn't be further from the truth. Buffy was a critical darling throughout it's first 5 seasons and was lauded for it's writing. I actually get defensive on behalf of the show because what it was known for was telling these incredibly complex and nuanced stories through metaphor which was really pretty ingenious. And then Season 6 intentionally strips that all away as a mission statement for the season (as stated by the writers) and that's fine, but suddenly just because the complexity is more, well, obvious in many ways, it's toted as being so "complex" when I think one could reasonably argue that by stripping away the metaphors it actually made the show less nuanced to some degree.

I also feel that there's an unfortunate tendency to equate darkness and characters doing shitty things with "complexity" (not just with Buffy but fiction overall) which can be frustrating at times. I don't agree with a thing of evil that Season 6 is "trash" but I do understand his criticisms of the "edginess" of the season which I do think is a fair complaint to some degree. There's definitely an aspect of Season 6 for me where I thought the writers were too chuffed with themselves for making things as depressing and bleak as possible (Hells Bells was unnecessary) and thought that by making the characters do horrible things, regardless of whether it even made sense or not (Willow), they were being edgy.

I do want to stress that this wasn't directed at you SpuffyGlitz. These are just general feelings I have about Season 6 overall. I just feel very protective of Season 1-5 because arguably I think they were more tightly written overall and that some of Season 6's weaknesses get mistaken for complexity. But I honestly find myself in the middle of this. I'm by no means a "the UPN years suck" kind of guy (well, Season 7 does, but Season 6 is miles better than that :D) but I certainly don't find Season 6 to be the most complex or well-written season of the series, either. I'll always applaud the writers for trying things different every season and that's something I love about the show but I personally prefer the show's use of metaphor over more literal storytelling as I feel the former is what made Buffy so unique whereas the latter is more of your standard television fare.

Season 6 does have some very good episodes. I think Bargaining I & II was the strongest season opener of the series, OMWF is astounding, I love Dead Things, and there's parts of Normal Again that I absolutely love. And as I said, I find Buffy's arc in Season 6 to be amazing and one of the best depictions of depression I've ever seen and I also think that Spuffy is at it's most interesting in Season 6 by far. On the flip side, what I don't like about the season is the writer's tendency to sometimes stretch or strain characterisation in order to get characters where they wanted them to be, the bizarre retcon in magic mythology, I thought Grave was by far the weakest season finale of the series, the stunt work is the worst it's been since Season 1, and there's several choices that I thought were unnecessary or even offensive (cutting to a commercial break midway through the AR etc). I also think it delves into some really tacky soap opera stuff (down-beaten musical montages, runaway grooms, rape, drunken hookups, drugs etc) that felt very un-Buffy to me. It's hit or miss for me these days but there's a lot to still love. Unfortunately it's just went down in my ranking a bit :(

Edit: Sorry Tribel I didn't see your post. This wasn't directed at you either.

Silver1
11-11-18, 11:06 AM
Plus...for many of them, the "at home" backdrop is an illusion - they're AT WORK.

Exactly. I've been saying this all along.

SpuffyGlitz
11-11-18, 11:36 AM
vampmogs
These are just general feelings I have about Season 6 overall. I just feel very protective of Season 1-5 because arguably I think they were more tightly written overall and that some of Season 6's weaknesses get mistaken for complexity. But I honestly find myself in the middle of this.

Oh, absolutely - the fact that I love S6 is just a preference, not to suggest that Seasons 1-5 aren't complex or fascinating or well written too :D (except for some episodes in S1, imo). I really can't say what it is about S6 that appeals so much to me (it's not even Spuffy.) Just that it does. I think it's a multitude of things (and S6 has this weird quality where I don't even feel the divisions between episodes as much, the narrative itself feels self-effacing in relation to the characters.) Actually, I think S5 has always been my absolute favourite tied with S6. And when speaking about the Buffyverse - there's just so much to love that it's only natural we'll have diverse (and changing) preferences.

TriBel I'm aware of the performative nature of reactions...for some reason I enjoy performances of people watching Buffy :p

vampmogs
11-11-18, 11:50 AM
TriBel I'm aware of the performative nature of reactions...for some reason I enjoy performances of people watching Buffy :p

As do I. However, that said, when I feel that the reactioner is being blatantly dishonest it does bug me. The example that does come to mind is Torchwood Boy and his reaction to Seeing Red. You could tell that his reaction the AR was genuine, however, his reaction to Tara's death felt completely fake. He was obviously shocked by what was happening but you could tell he was really trying to force himself to cry (it looks like he's about to laugh for a moment) and it didn't feel honest at all. It was cringeworthy.

Torchwood Boy had a lot of commenters/followers who were really pretty demanding of him and I think he felt he had to over-perform in "key" moments to appease them.

TriBel
11-11-18, 12:03 PM
Vampmogs:


I actually get defensive on behalf of the show because what it was known for was telling these incredibly complex and nuanced stories through metaphor which was really pretty ingenious.

I don't think you need to be defensive. I think (perhaps) the early seasons use metaphor in the sense of allegory. What happens in the later seasons is a movement towards representation and everything being metaphoric because it's standing in for a lost and unattainable real. IMO, it's why we see a greater emphasis placed on the unconscious (is Restless the turning point - IDK). The earlier seasons tend to build figure on ground (with interplay between the two). In the later seasons the ground begins to crumble (it's not coincidence that Sunnydale's deep structures literally disappear at the end) and the figure is in constant flux. My preference is because S6/7 are much more in keeping with my own research interests. There's an article here (warning: an academic article - with all that entails) http://www.aesthethika.org/IMG/pdf/Coverv2n1.pdf that talks about BtVS as

"new television narrative", this being the production of television series that can be classified neither as series nor as serial drama and which extend narrative arcs across multiple episodes and, indeed, multiple seasons or years (Cover, 2004; Cover, 2005). Such a format is highly available for the complex critique of identity, embodiment and abjection, particularly because it provides the temporal and spatial scope to examine such issues at length and allow them to play out over time. Strong fan-bases provide an impetus for ensuring strong continuity, and Joss Whedon (Kaveney, 2001: 12) has clearly been particularly interested not only in maintaining continuity, but in setting up narratives (and hinting at plot developments) several years before they go into production. Character change, development and transformation become possible in this new television format, and such transformation does not rely on the cliche of stability-change-return that marks most episodic television. Rather, transformation occurs in the encounter with otherness".

I'm sure some fans would argue with this (!). However, I like the fact that there's - literally - nothing to return to at the end of S7 but the yearning for home continues in S8. I also like the fact that Spike's first words in the series are "Home, Sweet, Home".

vampmogs: an observation - not a criticism! :D

Dipstick
11-11-18, 01:22 PM
I dislike BtVS S6-7 as well. I think it's a HUGE step down from the first five seasons. I've also wondered if 9/11 influenced the tone. S1-5 had a lot of tragedy and terror but it also featured the goodness in life- friends, family, growing up and succeeding at life. S6 was pretty much nothing but degrading misery. The degrading misery wasn't in service of a big myth arc. It wasn't in service of pure realism on what it's like to be impoverished or addicted or in an abusive relationship because so many details of those storylines were shoddily and incompletely written.

I hate most of the character-arcs in S6. I both miss Giles and dislike him in most of his S6 appearances. Side-Kicking on Anya's wedding story is a waste of Xander for three quarters of the season. Dawn is mainly painted as a burden on Buffy so that she can turn into an expert fighter in the last episode of the season. Buffy's whole S6 arc seems to be predicted on how it's better to be dead than alive- a conversation ender in an action-adventure show. Willow is just completely character-assassinated. Aside from Buffy's resurrection, I don't even see the point of Willow's Dark Arc other than the shock value of seeing Willow do lots of bad sh*t. Buffy's resurrection is the big exception- THAT'S a moral grey complex story that moves the show's general story forward entirely connected to the Willow that I've been watching in S1-5. I'll also put murdering Warren in this category. However, the mind wiping over petty sh*t and then, big sh*t to cover the petty sh*t when consent was specifically denied, moving teenagers into alternate dimensions, randomly altering everyone at the Bronze for funzies, trying to kill all of her friends and then, end the world just cuz is pure character assassination and feels fundametally disconnected from S1-5 Willow. Disconnected from S7 Willow too because that season put hardly any time into addressing all of this stuff into a coherent redemption story.

I don't really connect to Spike. Yet, the entire season was written for Spike. I'd be very interested to see how many people like S6 if Spike isn't in their Top 3 Favorite Characters. I think it's certainly possible and to each his own, but I predict those numbers are decidedly smaller.

Silver1
11-11-18, 01:36 PM
And I think that's the whole of my dislike of S6

Well...at least you're honest about that. :lol:

Dipstick
11-11-18, 01:38 PM
Well...at least you're honest about that. :lol:

LOL, I edited that part after posting because I think I mis-stated my feelings. Spike's existence isn't the whole of my dislike of S6. It's because Spike isn't a focus of mine or a favorite character that there's little in S6 for me. Because S6 is mainly important as Spike's bridge-to-redemption season.

Klaus Kartoffel
11-11-18, 03:19 PM
I was 18 when S06 was first aired. As opposed to some previous posters I absolutely hated the last scene in Afterlife (felt like what I think Dipstick means with "conversation ender"), and, in retrospection, marks the turning point where the season turns to "trash" for me.

I think fans view/experience the season so differently has also to do with the viewer's basic attitude while watching it. The season kept rubbing me the wrong way. Basically, I alternated between feeling repulsed, annoyed, bored and/or punked *by* the text, which lead to superficial and rudimentary intake *of* the text.

I think some of my lasting impressions what the season was about, after my first watch, were kinda like this:

1. There's such a thing called "righteous depression". Means, make clear you suffer the most over every other person in the world and have someone to blame, but be noble about it.

2. death > life, depends on which character we're talking about. Applies to Buffy, but not to Tara or Jenny. For some reason.

3. Most bad guys are Jewish or stereotypically Jewish.

4. Spike displaces his clothes quite often.

5. deciding to live for others is heroic and awesome and an indicator of Overcome Depression.

6. Trying to murder friends and sisters is morally relative because everything is mentally construed anyway (solipsism & constructivism ftw!)

7. depression and darkness is sexy

8. attempted murder is funny and not a big deal

9. blowing off a marriage *is* a big deal.

10. Moral principles are applied situationally, depending on the storyline/character arc

11. A black wig and contact lenses make a credible villain

12. Bullets don't fly straight ahead.

13. Willow's attempted genocide is related to her gender, sexuality, and religion (both Wicca and Judaism) according to Proserpexa's design.

14. Giles is always right

15. So is Tara

16. Spike > Scoobies

17. I still don't like musicals (the genre)

American Aurora
11-11-18, 03:59 PM
Hey, TriBel!


American Aurora: This isn't to say that Buffy Season Six isn't more flawed than previous seasons

TriBel: I don't think reactioners are stupid. Seriously, I find the writing in S6/7 far more complex than the earlier seasons. The plot isn't tight but (IMO) that's because it's writing against the notion of plot (at the very least, questioning) in the widest sense possible (it's concern is with the identity of the plotter(s) - and I've just realised the significance of that statement in relation to Life Serial). "Character" - I tend to think more in terms of self and subject, which is always (IMO) more fragmented than "character". Seriously (and politely) Aurora, what's a flaw? Doesn't a flaw depend on the notion of a perfect form? Is a flawed diamond flawed if the "flaw" occurs naturally or is it just "different"? I've decided S6 is the written equivalent of the platypus. I find it debilitating but I think that's because I'm finding the world in general debilitating at the moment.

Sorry for the confusion - I actually enjoy Season Six and don't find it any more or less flawed than any other season. In fact, I've been trying to make a case for it in the rewatch responses.

What I meant by the phrase was: "Putting aside the question as to whether Season Six was flawed or not..." but worded it badly. My point was that it's beside the point as to whether the season was flawed or not - the reactions on these You Tube videos are consistent with more critical reactions caused by a great deal of familiarity with the piece.

Although the same can be said for a lack of familiarity.

My first exposure to BtVS was Once More With Feeling - my connection to the show in its original run was hyper-contextualized by the fact that everyone I knew (including my boyfriend) was watching it, but I was not. For five seasons, I was told how great it was, how I had to watch it, how it was an amazing feminist show - but I was deep in the muddy waters of work and never really got around to it. My boyfriend even gave me running updates on the characters (especially Xander and Willow and Oz and later Tara - his favorites) and so I had a vague sense of the plotline.

When the big musical was due, I half-watched the episode right beforehand on purpose to finally get a grip on the show - All the Way - and I was turned off, to be honest. It just looked like any other teen soap opera with vampires added. But I remember what friends were saying - "Oh, you don't see! Buffy and Spike are getting closer! There's trouble with Xander and Anya's upcoming wedding! Willow may go dark according to the seventy-billion rumors out there! Wouldn't that be amazing!" and such. So they assured me that Joss Whedon, the creator who could do no wrong, was bringing all of his talent to the musical episode and I would be wowed. :D

Well, I watched Once More With Feeling with all critical feelers open as to the brilliance of the show - and I never watched BtVS again until 2013. :lol:

I do remember working the San Diego Comic Con and being convinced to attend the "Angel" panel - and I couldn't remember which was Angel and which was Spike and barely watched, writing notes instead. I figured Angel was the one with the blond hair because I remembered Once More With Feeling. :xd

In fact, the first time I actually sat down to watch the entire series, I had to watch Season One over again because - outside of Prophecy Girl - I thought it was so slight that the rest of the series wasn't worth a go. I had to rewatch it with the assurances that it would get better before it finally clicked. Some of that is most likely due to the fact that what seemed shiny and new in 1996 was well overdone by 2013. Some of it has to do with a personal connection to the material through a loathed professional acquaintance. :s

The point I guess I'm trying to make is how we watch something is even more important than what we watch - I don't know any of these "reactors" and for all I know, they could be paid by Warner Brothers/now Disney to hype up the show - some videos like this could even be hired by rival shows to bring other shows down. Having worked in PR, I don't trust anything "amateur" on You Tube - all those supposedly amateur videos of young teens practicing makeup sessions are actually sponsored by major Corporates pushing their wares. These videos can potentially make a lot of money and have a lot of undue influence looking at sideways synergy. We should have learned that already from the past election.

I'm just saying that anyone watching these 'reaction videos' should be incredibly cynical about how "real" they actually are. I imagine that a decade from now, people will look back at them and think "Remember when people watched other people fake-watching shows? So 2020." :rolleyes:

Dipstick
11-11-18, 06:21 PM
1. There's such a thing called "righteous depression". Means, make clear you suffer the most over every other person in the world and have someone to blame, but be noble about it.

2. death > life, depends on which character we're talking about. Applies to Buffy, but not to Tara or Jenny. For some reason.

3. Most bad guys are Jewish or stereotypically Jewish.

4. Spike displaces his clothes quite often.

5. deciding to live for others is heroic and awesome and an indicator of Overcome Depression.

6. Trying to murder friends and sisters is morally relative because everything is mentally construed anyway (solipsism & constructivism ftw!)

7. depression and darkness is sexy

8. attempted murder is funny and not a big deal

9. blowing off a marriage *is* a big deal.

10. Moral principles are applied situationally, depending on the storyline/character arc

11. A black wig and contact lenses make a credible villain

12. Bullets don't fly straight ahead.

13. Willow's attempted genocide is related to her gender, sexuality, and religion (both Wicca and Judaism) according to Proserpexa's design.

14. Giles is always right

15. So is Tara

16. Spike > Scoobies

17. I still don't like musicals (the genre)

18. Begging your father-figure and paid-advisor for help numerous times does not constitute asking for help. Even though we saw Buffy ask for Giles's help, she needs to lectured by Abandoning!Giles at the end of the series that adults ask for help.

19. Numerous attempted murder attempts are a justified reaction to being left at the altar.

20. But also, Anya is in favor of lethal vengeance for being left at the altar but not for murdering Tara and trying to kill Buffy. This is all coherent and cute.

21. Successfully bringing back the hero of the show from her death at 21-years of age is reason to be yelled at and called a stupid girl. However if said stupid girl makes lethal threats, those threats should be completely ignored and not met with so much as a scolding. However if said stupid girl later wants to find the episode's villains using a locator spell, she should be glared at because everyone should just sit on their hands and wait for MoTWs to do whatever.

22. For that matter, bashing the show's resident genius as a "stupid girl" for trying to solve the serious problem of Buffy's unfair death comports perfectly with a feminist show.

23. Tara was not a member of an evil-fighting gang when she started to do magic. She was just amusing herself with stuff like making Teddy-bears dance. However all of a sudden, it's wrong to do any magic unless it's in service of fighting evil.

24. BUT EVEN STILL, it's wrong of Willow to magically hack into a computer system to fight evil. Because doesn't she know that she has to do the legwork of physically hacking and possibly leave electronic traces so she's vulnerable to Muggle law enforcement? For reasons?

25. The grand fight of in the season finale can just be stopped with a binding spell so that our heroes can discuss their hair.

26. You can have a season-long plot about Buffy being impoverished without accounting for how one to two adults in her house are contributing or not contributing to the household income. Or accounting for how Buffy had re-entered the structures of a wealthy Watcher's Council allegedly designed to help her slaying and is paying her absent father figure. Or accounting for why no one is making any effort to get seemingly upper middle class Hank Summers to support his minor daughter, Dawn, as he's legally required to. Or account for why the Scoobies protect/volunteer at a business for Giles/Anya without Buffy seeing a piece of the action and actually, being punished over piddly delivery on her first sale, discouraging her from being a paid employee.

27. Magic was a metaphor for female strength and the empowerment and beauty of being true to your lesbian self. S6 turned it into a metaphor for either being a crack whore or being uppity in a lust for power. S6 decides to replace being a good powerful witch or a good powerful Slayer with sleeping with a soulless serial killer as the de jour metaphor for being gay. That's not offensive at all. /sarcastic voice.

28. S7 supposedly resolves by allowing Willow to use her magic....but only when Buffy/Giles tell her to regardless of Willow's own reservations and fears over what it'll do her body/spirit. It's supposedly empowering to become a magical battery for other people even if you fear and resent how you're being commanded to use your own body. S6 had Willow do enough OOC Rape the Dog evil sh*t so she can be effectively de-humanized into just a Magical Battery without any validity to her feelings or fears by the final season.

29. The big moral moment is Willow killing Warren even though human Warren is subject to U.S. law enforcement instead of So Goes My Nation-Willow-law enforcement. However, the Scoobies don't bother to pick a d*mn phone and inform law enforcement of the Trio's numerous crimes and try turning over some mystically-sanitized evidence to get them put away. For The.Whole.Damn.Season. Riley comes into town to remind us that there are U.S. government factions designed to deal with mystical practitioners like Ethan Rayne. But no one bothers discussing the Trio, even though they've been established as the season-long villains at this point. The Scoobies can't even attempt what average Good Samaritans do every day.

30. The Scoobies SUUUUCK because they approach Buffy as a group (Bargaining, Afterlife, Flooded, Tabula Rasa, etc.). They're all big, bad, annoying because they don't finagle one-on-one appointments with Buffy.

31. You can suddenly cure depression (be it clinical chemical depression or depression borne of witnessing that the afterlife is better than life) by threatening the depressed person with an apocalypse. Can't believe the nuclear-weapons-holding countries never thought of simulating nuclear war to cure the world's depressed people!

32. Giles loaded already homicidal and suicidal with grief!Darth Rosenberg with all of the world's pain so that Crayon Christ Boy (name is stolen from another site) could reach the evil Jewish dyke. However, Giles never bothered to tell Key Guy or try to get a message to Key Guy that he was responsible for turning Good Red Haired Willow lemonade out of the apocalyptic lemon-mess that Giles instigated. If Xander very reasonably went back to the Magic Box, the world would be over.

Klaus Kartoffel
11-11-18, 08:53 PM
18. Begging your father-figure and paid-advisor for help numerous times does not constitute asking for help. Even though we saw Buffy ask for Giles's help, she needs to lectured by Abandoning!Giles at the end of the series that adults ask for help. […]

LOL, co-op anti-S06/07 rant!

33. Potentially being responsible for numerous deaths due to an unstable slayer-line, suggestively caused by Buffy’s resurrection, is not something to follow up on, discuss, or even report to the people concerned. At least I know now that it’s totally not Buffy’s fault (which was totally my suspicion up until that point/sarcasm) while, by implication, EVERYTHING is Willow/Xander/Tara/Anya’s fault. Since, except the audience, Anya and Giles, nobody has an idea, this information is effin useless for the plot and characters. However, I keep this Epic Injustice in the back of my mind when Torn-Out-Of-Heaven!Buffy struggles with her duty, with her friends and when she seeks comfort in Spike’s company. Makes the Spuffy/Scoobies divisive polarization all the sweeter.

34. Hording an army of Potentials, two Slayers, a witch, a teenager, a carpenter, an ex-vengeance demon, a loser delinquent, a vampire, a watcher and a principal in a three-bedroom house largely made of wood, surrounding vulnerable, is the best choice for a HQ in a mystical war where it’s all or nothing. Definitely not Draculas’ holiday castle.

35. When the bad guys aren’t Jewish, they are stupid and never go for the final killing blow (Caleb, Turok Han).

36. Giles really has a handle in making money with minimum effort by exploiting his status and the good will/reputation of others. Lol, he even got The Council fooled. A cynic would call it genius.

37. The Turok Han decidedly become weaker by number. Oh wonder, it’s a metaphor!

38. The First Evil reveals its lame stupidity right from the beginning by deciding to goat *Andrew*, of all people, back to Sunnydale as its little minion. Literally *nothing* Andrew ever does for TFE is to its advantage whatsoever.

39. The same with Trigger!Spike… yeah it keeps Buffy occupied and Spuffy steaming but whatever?

40. Or just not methodically wearing down Willow by repeatedly showing up in Tara and Buffy’s form whenever she’s alone during the whole season (because it can and it’s a very promising strategy!) “It would be too cruel to the fans” my ass.

41. Or just not having the Bringers abduct random citizens to cut their throats over the Seal of Balthazar.


24. BUT EVEN STILL, it's wrong of Willow to magically hack into a computer system to fight evil. Because doesn't she know that she has to do the legwork of physically hacking and possibly leave electronic traces so she's vulnerable to Muggle law enforcement? For reasons?

Ha, I wished there was an episode in S07 where the FBI shows up and arrests Willow for computer fraud just because of this.

vampmogs
11-11-18, 10:39 PM
26. You can have a season-long plot about Buffy being impoverished without accounting for how one to two adults in her house are contributing or not contributing to the household income.

This. It's one of the things I had in mind when I was referring to the plot holes throughout the season. I've seen countless fans over the years question this and then, perhaps unfairly so but we honestly don't know, call Willow and Tara "freeloaders" for living in Buffy's home without contributing. It's the kind of thing that absolutely should have been addressed.

I mean, honestly, I don't even know if the writer's wanted us to think that. It'd be blatantly OOC and it would be character-assassination but Season 6 is so negatively slanted against the Scoobies from pretty much the get-go that a part of me wouldn't be surprised. Life Serial has both Giles and Xander act blatantly OOC, IMO, when Xander fires Buffy from the worksite and then Giles docks her pay over a silly mistake on her first transaction. I do not believe either of them would ever do that.

If you're going to have an entire storyline revolve around Buffy being impoverished and struggling to pay the bills then it goes without saying that you need to at least address how her housemates are contributing. It could have been cleared up in a single line or two. It's that kind of careless and inattention to detail that starts cropping up more throughout the season and is kind of a precursor to the MAJOR inattention to detail that creates chasms of plot holes throughout Season 7. I can easily think of plot holes throughout most seasons of Buffy (how does Wesley freely have access to the library in Season 3 when unlike Giles he isn't also the "librarian", for instance) but they're rarely crucial in anyway to the story. And character's reputations don't depend on them.

Dipstick
11-11-18, 11:18 PM
This. It's one of the things I had in mind when I was referring to the plot holes throughout the season. I've seen countless fans over the years question this and then, perhaps unfairly so but we honestly don't know, call Willow and Tara "freeloaders" for living in Buffy's home without contributing. It's the kind of thing that absolutely should have been addressed.

I mean, honestly, I don't even know if the writer's wanted us to think that. It'd be blatantly OOC and it would be character-assassination but Season 6 is so negatively slanted against the Scoobies from pretty much the get-go that a part of me wouldn't be surprised. Life Serial has both Giles and Xander act blatantly OOC, IMO, when Xander fires Buffy from the worksite and then Giles docks her pay over a silly mistake on her first transaction. I do not believe either of them would ever do that.

If you're going to have an entire storyline revolve around Buffy being impoverished and struggling to pay the bills then it goes without saying that you need to at least address how her housemates are contributing. It could have been cleared up in a single line or two. It's that kind of careless and inattention to detail that starts cropping up more throughout the season and is kind of a precursor to the MAJOR inattention to detail that creates chasms of plot holes throughout Season 7. I can easily think of plot holes throughout most seasons of Buffy (how does Wesley freely have access to the library in Season 3 when unlike Giles he isn't also the "librarian", for instance) but they're rarely crucial in anyway to the story. And character's reputations don't depend on them.

Yes. I'm not really a stickler for random little errors. I also can't bring myself to care about how Wesley gets to hang at SHS in S3. However, plot errors that go to character assassination and plot errors that ruin the season's whole theme really piss me off. S6 prides itself on telling reeeaaal stories where Life is the Big Bad. As a result, I have higher expectations for realism in the classic Life as the Big Bad story i.e. Buffy's poverty. Absolutely, Willow and Tara would be horrific if they weren't contributing to the upkeep of Casa de Summers and I want to fanwank that they were chipping in because of that. But also, it makes no sense that Buffy's minimum wage pay at the Doublemeat for part of the season would support three women (because Tara moved out by then) and the maintenance and mortgage of a two-story nice house even if housing-value depressed Sunnydale. However, I kind of feel like the spoiled Hollywood writers are so out of touch with how a minimum wage salary isn't enough to support a family that they end up writing an elitist story despite themselves. (Politically, I think it took the Great Recession to really thrust poverty in the US to the popular consciousness even among the fuzzy-headed liberal thinking Hollywood. This mindset of a minimum wage job supporting 2-3 people really does feel Bush-era.)

I hate S7 and I hate that they don't explain how Buffy was able to make expenses and then, support an Army of Potentials in her house. However, actually, I don't resent the lack of exposition on the household budget as much because it's less fundamental to the S7 story. In S7, the show was back to bigger stories about major supernatural threats. However if the whole ever-lovin' point of the season is "Life as the Big Bad" with Buffy's financial problems as the star of that, it's writing-malpractice to not explain how she's meeting expenses.

I agree that Xander/Giles were character assassinated in Life Serial. Giles because it's just straight up vile to dock pay for a small mistake on an employee's first sale, and especially vile to do it to Buffy. Xander is trickier. In my head, I fanwank that Xander is just an employee on that construction site. Buffy seemed to have created a very public disturbance in front of all of the guys on the site. Xander may well have felt like he had to fire her to ensure his own job security. Xander isn't as clearly in charge of the site as Giles is of the Magic Box. Buffy made a number of civilians feel unsafe which demands more of a response to ease those guys than not charging for delivery. However even with Xander, I have to do all of this fanwanking because Xander doesn't explain any of it. He doesn't even seem like he feels forced to fire Buffy; he just does it blandly with little sympathy.

a thing of evil
11-11-18, 11:18 PM
regardless of Willow's own reservations and fears over what it'll do her body/spirit

This.

thisthisthisthisthisthististhis

There's that scene in Bring on the Night where the spell goes kablooey. Willow's having a panic attack, she's hyperventilating, practically begging Buffy to not make her do any more spells. A couple episodes later Buffy's all tee-hee Wicca who won't-a, wish she'd go dark. And guess what, Willow has to go dark to bring her back. Again.

Hot take - season 7 has many problems but the core issue is Buffy's failure at being human.

vampmogs
11-11-18, 11:34 PM
In my head, I fanwank that Xander is just an employee on that construction site. Buffy seemed to have created a very public disturbance in front of all of the guys on the site. Xander may well have felt like he had to fire her to ensure his own job security. Xander isn't as clearly in charge of the site as Giles is of the Magic Box. Buffy made a number of civilians feel unsafe which demands more of a response to ease those guys than not charging for delivery. However even with Xander, I have to do all of this fanwanking because Xander doesn't explain any of it. He doesn't even seem like he feels forced to fire Buffy; he just does it blandly with little sympathy.

Pretty much this. I understand if Xander felt like he had to fire Buffy to prevent them both for losing their job but the way he does it is so cold ("You're firing me, aren't you?" "Big time") and he also comes across as a total jerk about the demon's attacking her ("No! Not at my work. That's your work!").

And my problem isn't that Xander is actually like a jerk. There are numerous moments of Xander acting like a massive jerk throughout the series. It's that I don't find it to be believable he's acting like a jerk about this.

Likewise, I can't imagine any employer would dock someone's pay if they make a mistake on their first ever sale. You have to expect that a new employee will make mistakes on their first ever day and be sympathetic and gracious about that. It's a regular part of learning. So for anyone to do it, it would be bad but for Giles to do it to Buffy is just heinous. And I don't think he would. I feel like I can see the plot shifting the gears as opposed to the characterisation leading the plot.



30. The Scoobies SUUUUCK because they approach Buffy as a group (Bargaining, Afterlife, Flooded, Tabula Rasa, etc.). They're all big, bad, annoying because they don't finagle one-on-one appointments with Buffy.

Um, yeah. This is what I noticed during my Season 5/6 rewatch. The entire way the camera frames the Scoobies as this domineering, overbearing, almost hostile, and yet frustratingly ignorant and incompetent group, that invades on Buffy's space is very bizarre and very different to Season 1-5. Look, I can understand what they were going for in Afterlife with the Scoobies coming across overwhelming to a disorientated Buffy (though I roll my eyes at Dawn scolding them and telling them to "back off" and Spike rolling his eyes and huffing off as if her friends are an inconvenience and ruin everything) but it continues into numerous episodes as if the text suddenly hates them or something. It's a stark contrast to how the team was, for the most part, depicted as a source of comfort and much needed support for Buffy throughout Season 1-5 (the obvious exceptions being episodes like Dead Man's Party but even that episode had a "I got your back!" moment).

It's all about the staging. Take for instance Flooded, where the gang deliver the bad news to Buffy about her financial woes. Nobody is sitting besides Buffy. There's Buffy alone on the couch and then the camera cuts to the entire gang sitting on the opposite side of the room staring at her. They come across as if they're interrogating her/looming over her/the bearers of bad news, and this exact kind of staging is found throughout Afterlife and Tabula Rasa as well, as you say.

It was really noticeable after my last rewatch. There's a massive tonal shift between Season 5 & Season 6 in regards to how The Scoobies are presented and I completely understand people's resentment of it. I resented it for sure. If they wanted to show that Buffy is hurt by her friends decision to resurrect her then they can show that but the text is absolutely imbalanced in the way it depicts them. These are still the same people who've loyally fought by her side and supported her throughout Season 1-5. Everything about their grief and then their support when she's back is depicted so cynically and so bizarrely negatively.

The season does improve a little in that regard the more it progresses but it's absolutely setting the stage for how woefully the Scoobies are presented at the end of Season 7.

Stoney
12-11-18, 01:52 AM
But it isn't just about Buffy's sense of distance from them for resurrecting her, it is also about their wish that things could revert to a previous dynamic and 'selves' that is now impossible because of all they have gone through when apart. They are all unsettled in her return and struggling to find their footings with each other again because the time apart has been filled with grief/struggles and hopes and expectations are heavy on them all. I can understand the frustration over some of the unexplained elements and think the finances is the biggest problem in the writing in S6, but the changed tone and structure of the group, the way they struggle and fail to support each other is all part of what is understandable and, for me, a really great part of what they explored. That things didn't feel the same, didn't work the same and had inherently changed despite the ways that they all wished they hadn't. Mileage just varies so much on a lot of this as this is what I would say is one of the strengths in the writing, that they chose to show that things could/had changed to some extent and then we saw the group manage to come back to each other eventually, but that it wouldn't be quite the same anymore. It is relatable to me and very much an aspect of growing up and life making things alter that you wish had never changed.

HardlyThere
12-11-18, 02:35 AM
My ultimate beef with S6 is that it doesn't really deal with any of it. The ultimate message is what? Cheer up? Yeah, Xander should have spoken to Anya about this doubt, but you can't make the guy the sole bad guy when you've shown Anya completely ignores and is often enraged by those doubts showing through. Equate magic with crack and make her a junkie, but never bring up how her two biggest enablers abandon her when it starts to hurt them. Make Buffy depressed and point out how she's stuck in dead end jobs before some vamp/demon gets lucky and makes her a trophy, but lol get over it, Dawn wants pancakes?

The darkness doesn't bug me in S6 or the sex or any other thinly veiled metaphors. What bugs me is I find the story pretty condescending and kind of insulting. It can be summed up when Giles returns and tells Buffy sometimes the most adult thing to do is ask for help. She did exactly frigging that in TR.

vampmogs
12-11-18, 02:38 AM
Stoney, it isn't about the group being fractured or failing to support each other. It's the demonising of the Scoobies in not just the text but even how they're framed/staged in a scene etc. I understand completely what Dipstick is getting at when she refers to how the season criticises the Scoobies for trying to speak to Buffy as a group and that's not even explicitly stated in the text (besides Dawn telling them to "back off"). It's in how the scenes are very deliberately staged. It occurs really predominately in those earlier episodes (Afterlife & Flooded being the two major examples) and on top of that they're also depicted as being hugely incompetent, ignorant and nothing more than selfish nuisances, quite frankly.

I don't know what it is about Season 6/7 as opposed to S1-S5 but it's like when the switch happened from The WB to UPN the Scooby dynamic suffered greatly. I'd have been sad but I could have accepted it if the series gave a fair and balanced portrayal of a group of people who simply weren't as close anymore for various reasons, but there's occasions throughout S6-S7 that blatantly demonise Buffy's friends and write them as acting extremely OOC to service the plot. I mean, everyone talks about how awful they are in Empty Places, and I agree, but I completely agree with Sosa Lola (I think?) who states that it's actually how they're written in Touched that is so brazenly OOC and awful. Not only are they raked over the coals for being "sad, sad ungrateful traitors" but they don't express any remorse, uncertainty or concern for Buffy after kicking her out and don't even think to look for her until Faith instructs them to and they readily accept the "I don't want you talking to her or getting too close" instructions from Faith of all people about Buffy. Nuh-uh. I don't care what the writer's try and tell me. That would never have happened. There's no justification whatsoever for why the Scoobies suddenly care so little about Buffy unless you really, really have a low opinion of them.

Season 4 explored the Scoobies fracturing apart but it never demonised them or painted them as burdens on Buffy or as incompetent fools or even worse, freeloaders. It was sympathetic to all sides (Buffy, Xander, Willow & Giles) and didn't vilify anyone. I think it's undeniable that something changed between Season 5-6 in terms of how the group was portrayed from hereon out. Whether it was someone at UPN, Noxon taking over, the writers, September 11, whatever, it is really noticeably different and on my latest rewatch it felt completely unearned.

HardlyThere
12-11-18, 02:39 AM
My ultimate beef with S6 is that it doesn't really deal with any of it. The ultimate message is what? Cheer up? Yeah, Xander should have spoken to Anya about this doubt, but you can't make the guy the sole bad guy when you've shown Anya completely ignores and is often enraged by those doubts showing through. Equate magic with crack and make her a junkie, but never bring up how her two biggest enablers abandon her when it starts to hurt them. Make Buffy depressed and point out how she's stuck in dead end jobs before some vamp/demon gets lucky and makes her a trophy, but lol get over it, Dawn wants pancakes?

The darkness doesn't bug me in S6 or the sex or any other thinly veiled metaphors. What bugs me is I find the story pretty condescending and kind of insulting. It can be summed up when Giles returns and tells Buffy sometimes the most adult thing to do is ask for help. She did exactly frigging that in TR.

Puppet
12-11-18, 04:18 AM
Okay, I'm ignoring the last several pages of this thread, since I don't support ASR on Patreon (can't afford it) and so SPOILERS! :)

Anyway, I am completely addicted to reaction videos. If someone has reacted to a show I've watched I will watch that reaction. I mean, I have my favorites, of course, but at the end of the day, I'll watch it all.

ASR - Shan - is one of my favorites, though. She's the only reactor I follow where she's reacting to 4 separate shows that I love (if one counts Buffy and Angel as separate shows). Her reactions are totally genuine, I'm not really sure why some think they are OTT for the sake of entertainment, but I guess cynicism is cynicism, right? Anyway, I've seen too many reactors to think for one second that Shan is fake - trust me, I've seen fake and it's super obvious.

There's this one reactor, right? She sits in a chair when filming her reaction, but then the little screen that has the episode also has a reflection of her bent over, filming the episode on TV! Clearly her first time watching, riiiight!

Most of the reactors I've found - I don't watch reactions to GoT, Lost, any anime or animation, AHS, to name a few examples - are clearly and obviously reacting in the now. They are also honest about what spoilers they may have going into it and, if they are spoiled underway, they bring this up as well.

I've seen Van's Veronica Mars reactions and loved those, but I've been stalling on her Buffy ones because I want to be able to binge a whole bunch. This other reactor I follow has just started the original Charmed and he's also completely unspoiled, which is awesome.

Anyway, I really enjoy Shan, even though she also pisses me off more than other reactors - that just means I'm passionate, though, right? Right??? Yeah, she does seem to not really take things very seriously a lot of the time, but my thing that annoys me the most about her is this uncanny way she has of seeing the show - and not just Buffy.

She seems to clearly watch a show for the likable characters, instead of the interesting storylines/character arcs. An example would be all the times she's gone "Don't hurt my Willow!" instead of appreciating what a great storyline it was. She's very protective of her favorites, which is why I initially guessed she was 16, until learning she was actually 22 o.O

This particular trait is what almost turned me off her TVD reactions - her ludicrous hatred of all things Matt. She kept complaining that he was boring, just because he was human, when that was his most interesting trait! Like Xander, he was the sole human left in the story, killing him off or writing him out would be, imo, the final stake (pun totally intended) in the coffin as far as the credibility of the show. But every little thing he did, she hated, with a hypocrisy like no other.

This is why I love her Supernatural reactions, lol, so far there hasn't been a character she has hated with quite the vitriol of Riley and Matt - similar to her AtS reactions, actually, now that I think about it.

Anyway, she should hopefully be releasing some new vids this week and I'm looking forward to it, despite my rant she really is one of my favorite reactors (and I follow a lot) out there.

Stoney
12-11-18, 06:02 AM
Stoney, it isn't about the group being fractured or failing to support each other. It's the demonising of the Scoobies in not just the text but even how they're framed/staged in a scene etc. I understand completely what Dipstick is getting at when she refers to how the season criticises the Scoobies for trying to speak to Buffy as a group and that's not even explicitly stated in the text (besides Dawn telling them to "back off"). It's in how the scenes are very deliberately staged. It occurs really predominately in those earlier episodes (Afterlife & Flooded being the two major examples) and on top of that they're also depicted as being hugely incompetent, ignorant and nothing more than selfish nuisances, quite frankly.

I do think there are issues, as I said I see it with how the lack of explanation around the finances is shown. But in terms of how they are staged/framed I don't see it the same. I think it visualises the fact that they aren't in sync anymore and that they are jarring to each other. That what they want of each other and how they are responding is self focused and blind (and I'm including Buffy's response to them in the season too, not just theirs to her). It's in great part through uncertainty and awkwardness. I think it just shows how they have changed and don't click right at the moment, don't walk in each others lives in a comfortable way. I can't see it as out of character when the whole thing is about emotional weight of change and how painfully it can take something that was easy and just make it suddenly feel wrong and so different that you and they feel unrecognisable.

I had a very close friendship that went through exactly this and in massive part because of deep emotional trauma and a sudden inability to be the one the other person needed because of self interest. I mean a seriously close, living in each other's pockets, type friendship. We changed through our experiences and suddenly didn't work any more like we had and it was the fact that it had been so in sync and then wasn't that jarred and made it all the more disquieting in the sudden awkwardness. I don't see the scoobies as being demonised, just desperate to have Buffy back and their friendship working again. A great deal of it is about accepting change and how much things alter who people are and then fitting back into each other's lives again. We worked through it because of how much we mattered to each other, but it wasn't ever like it used to be and couldn't be and that loss is still a bit upsetting. We'd grown apart almost against our wills, but life/experiences did that, as dramatic as it may sound. I think the thing that makes the depiction seem harsh with the scoobies is that what Buffy is going through is so deeply emotionally traumatic that their inability to be there for her seems astounding. But I think the point is that their lives have their own troubles and a lot of it links to Buffy's death and their complex responses to it for them, as well as her. As I said, I just see the depiction of things changing despite what you want/expected and learning to adjust. I haven't gotten as far as Empty Places/Touched in my rewatch but I'll think specifically about all of this when we do get there.

TriBel
12-11-18, 07:46 AM
Vampmogs:


Pretty much this. I understand if Xander felt like he had to fire Buffy to prevent them both for losing their job but the way he does it is so cold ("You're firing me, aren't you?" "Big time") and he also comes across as a total jerk about the demon's attacking her ("No! Not at my work. That's your work!").

I don't have a problem with it and it doesn't make me like Xander less. Perhaps there's an element of him trying to save face in front of his male workmates :noidea: but, if so, we've seen it before - when Buffy intervenes in his confrontation with Larry. My understanding is that the main focus is the topic of the lesson "The Social Construction of Reality" and Mike's question: "does that mean there are countless realities?"

"No! Not at my work. That's your work!" He's right. For him, his work and her work exist as two separate realities - the two shouldn't intersect (he's Xander in one and "The Boss" in the other. Don't multiple selves hark back to The Replacement?). In S 1-3 they inhabited a limited number of shared spaces - the High School, the Bronze, Revello Dr. They had a core group - The Scoobies - within the wider community of school. I'm not a sociologist, but it seems to me to be characteristic of Gemeinschaft: an "organic social relationship characterized by strong reciprocal bonds of sentiment and kinship within a common tradition". Once they leave and enter the world of work (or university) you have a set-up akin to Gesellschaft - "a society or group characterized chiefly by formal organization, impersonal relations, the absence of generally held or binding norms, and a detachment from traditional and sentimental concerns, and often tending to be rationalistic and secular in outlook".

The "coldness" isn't (IMO) a reflection of Xander's feelings towards Buffy but a necessity/by-product of life in a modern, capitalist society. She doesn't hold it against him does she (genuine question - I can't remember)? I was under the impression she understood his decision as instrumental not personal. I'm not saying it's the preferred reading but I think S6 is consciously ambivalent and actively encourages different readings. I don't think it comes down on any side. If I'm honest - I don't much "like" any of the characters in S6 - but I feel sympathetic towards all of them (less so the Trio). To my mind, the criticism is of the systems they're caught up in rather than the individuals themselves (and I dislike the systems even more).

We see vestiges of it at the beginning of S7, when Xander's momentarily distracted by the financial implications of the hole in the floor ("Whoa. Contracty goodness. Talisman, talisman".) but he re-priotitises and it's a collective effort that saves Dawn and her friends. It's why so much emphasis is placed on him repairing Revello Drive - it's his job but he does it out of love not for money. It's an early indication that a different system is possible.

Dipstick
12-11-18, 03:23 PM
Stoney, based on my own preferences and interests on this show, I wouldn't enjoy a season/two seasons about the Scoobies growing apart, especially on the final yardline. The connection between Buffy and her friends is my favorite aspect of the show. I think S6-7 was written for Spuffies. I get why they were drawn to the UPN years. However, it's not written for Scooby-fans. As opposed to S2-3 which was written for both Bangels and Scooby-fans. The S6-7 writers could not walk and chew gum at the same time, in terms of servicing Buffy's romances but also a decent Big Bad arc and Buffy's other family/friendships.

Although even aside from personal preferences, the show was trying to have it both ways. It can't be a story about friends growing apart because the show also said that the Scoobies were family. This family structure was hardened by Willow/Tara living with Buffy/Dawn and taking over custody of Dawn and then, pretty much everyone sort of moving in during S7. However even though the "real estate" and terminology indicated an additional closeness, the actual emotional effect was increased distance between Buffy and the Scoobies. I *love* the Buffy/Willow bond and I *loved* their S4 roomie conversations. I found zero joy in Willow living at Revello Drive with Buffy because they were so fundamentally distant from each other and I was perpetually distracted by whether Willow is a freeloader there. So, for most of S6-7, I wasn't seeing a story about people growing apart because of their own issues but rather Buffy being weighed down a ball n' chain family that sucked but she had to pay lip-service to loving/enjoying. The only exception to this was early S7 when Buffy drew closer to Xander and Dawn and there were signs of real growth from Xander/Dawn. Even if S7 really worked to restore all of Buffy's ties to her friends, I still wouldn't have enjoyed S6 because again, the Scooby-bond is my favorite. However, Buffy's scenes with Xander/Dawn were dropped in mid-S7 and the entire season became about Buffy's isolation as a general. Again. On the very final yardline. So, there was a much-hyped renewal of Buffy's friendships in S7 but it was never actually delivered on.

However, I really didn't see a "both sides" to the S6 story here most of the time in S6. Xander/Anya spent most of S6 distracted by a wedding- which is always going to come across as frivolous compared to depression/suicide ideation. Giles actually abandoned Buffy, and he did not leave to pursue a larger cause than being fought in Sunnydale. In S6, Dawn was painted as a burden who couldn't even entertain herself or do her own chores. Willow was actually the EVOL Big Bad.

Willow from Buffy
12-11-18, 04:25 PM
I've just rewatched S6 and I think it is a great Scooby season. I think there is an even greater emphasis on the Scoobies and their relationships in S6 than in ... say ... S2. Buffy is an amazing friend to Willow in S6. She even blames herself for not predicting Willow's breakdown.

And I just can't get the people who watch Seeing Red and go, "Okay! I just can't deal with this Spuffy fanservice!"

Dipstick
12-11-18, 05:19 PM
I've just rewatched S6 and I think it is a great Scooby season. I think there is an even greater emphasis on the Scoobies and their relationships in S6 than in ... say ... S2. Buffy is an amazing friend to Willow in S6. She even blames herself for not predicting Willow's breakdown.

And I just can't get the people who watch Seeing Red and go, "Okay! I just can't deal with this Spuffy fanservice!"

Willow being a stupid, evil charity case of Buffy's isn't quality Scoobying to me. It's hard to offer a comprehensive argument why there was a less of an emphasis on the Scoobies and their relationship with Buffy in S6, for good or for bad. I'm doing the Positive/Negative threads and I think I'll do S6. In the S2 Positive/Negative thread, I had no complaints about the Scoobies not being included in the week's mystery or missing certain credits character for large swath of the episode. I'm sure in my S6 thread, my Positive/Negative analysis will be rife with such complaints. Because there are a number of S6 episodes where the Scoobies are not well tied in the week's mystery or included in important moments of Buffy's life.

However even if there was Buffy/Scooby relationship dynamics in existence, S6 does its level best to *bash* them. I do think that I wrote a few posts on how the Buffy/Scooby relationship in S6 is framed as the Scoobies as another one of Buffy's annoying crosses to bear and a reason why it's worse to be alive with people than dead and alone. That's the exploration of the Buffy/Scooby relationship in S6- why it's better to be dead and alone because the Scoobies are annoying. Because the function of the Scoobies in S6 is to be bashed, and that doesn't satisfy me even though it's story time.

Willow from Buffy
12-11-18, 05:46 PM
However even if there was Buffy/Scooby relationship dynamics in existence, S6 does its level best to *bash* them. I do think that I wrote a few posts on how the Buffy/Scooby relationship in S6 is framed as the Scoobies as another one of Buffy's annoying crosses to bear and a reason why it's worse to be alive with people than dead and alone. That's the exploration of the Buffy/Scooby relationship in S6- why it's better to be dead and alone because the Scoobies are annoying. Because the function of the Scoobies in S6 is to be bashed, and that doesn't satisfy me even though it's story time.

You're nitpicking. If you think of the show as having a thesis on life and the meaning of friendship, then it must also have a counter thesis, or there would be no tension - friendship and happiness would just be things that were there, not things to be explored and ruminated upon.

Xander was awful a lot of the time in S2 and 3, but you should not jump the shark and conclude that Xander is an awful person.

HardlyThere
12-11-18, 05:48 PM
Ehhh... I don't think S6 bashes them any more than any other season. The only difference is it puts the microscope on it, but even then it doesn't call it out or chide them.

I suppose it's up in the air how it comes across. I don't think it's presented to us that we're *supposed* to see Dawn as a burden. We're supposed to see her as Buffy's responsibility that she's failing. A lot of fans didn't see it that way, of course. I like the Scoobs more in S6 than most other seasons. I just find them more interesting on their own than the whole co-dependent-disguised-as-healthy friendship they had going on previously. I enjoy about two-thirds of S6, then it goes off the rails with Seeing Red when they blow up anything interesting they might have been leading up to.

Willow from Buffy
12-11-18, 05:52 PM
I don't think it's presented to us that we're *supposed* to see Dawn as a burden.

Yes, I don't get it when people are like, "We're clearly supposed to see it this way, but I am too smart for them, so I actually see it this another way." :blink:

Stoney
12-11-18, 06:10 PM
I don't know what to say Dipstick. You know that I respect your opinion and have really gained from your insight through the seasons (especially in regard to Willow) and I'm really pleased that you are back on the board again. I really appreciate you explaining what bothers you about the seasons because it helps to understand where others are coming from and I think it is important to question our own perceptions and points of view. But I just don't see it the same way on this one. I think what the scoobies went through as individuals at the end of S5 and during the time Buffy was away meaningfully challenged/changed them and Buffy's own experiences were traumatic and changed her too. They weren't ever going to have the same dynamics again and I think they all struggled to redefine their friendships in S6 alongside their individual shifts/traumas and that is what the season is predominantly about. But I think they started to make steps that continued into S7, and they started to manage it. But deeply held issues like that and shifting dynamics as they have can take years to resettle in my experience and that is what I think we are seeing at the end of the show (and into S8-10 really).

I think the relationship with Spike is a big part of S5-7 (and on into the canon comics), but I think it runs alongside Buffy's journey in the seasons and Willow's especially, but it doesn't stop the scoobie relationship being something also explored and developed specifically in S6/7. I can understand why people may not like the direction the show went in and that I do again links to my personal experience of why I find it so relatable how traumatic life experiences can change your relationships no matter how strong and unchangeable you had thought they were. Because it is unsettling and disappointing and very confusing, but people live and part of that creates change. Major life events affects who you are and I think this is what we saw in S6 and for me it was the strongest season and I just really related/connected to it. I've never known another show cover the difficulty of growing up, growing apart through letting each other down but caring enough to try to rebuild like I experienced and the show depicted (that's where the strength of their original relationship and the sense of being bonded/family beyond the problems pulling them apart comes in, again very much what I experienced). It's what cemented how much I love the show.

I've heard plenty of negativity about S6 over the years in fandom and to me it seems to relate mostly to disliking the scoobies fundamentally changing in themselves and Spike's increased relevance/importance in Buffy's life. I enjoy both of those aspects because Spike is my favourite character, his arc across the show is my favourite part, I enjoy his relationship with Buffy and how it is part of showing the balance between romance/friendships start to shift as you grow older, and just because I find so much of what happens between Buffy and the scoobies in S6 & 7 to be things that I experienced and struggled with. But I understand why they would be things that would turn other people off. Our mileage just varies because aside from agreeing there were things they should have explored and explained more (the finances really for me), the things you didn't like I saw as strengths and related to. We just had very different experiences with the season as viewers.

Dipstick
12-11-18, 06:24 PM
I don't know what to say Dipstick. You know that I respect your opinion and have really gained from your insight through the seasons (especially in regard to Willow) and I'm really pleased that you are back on the board again. I really appreciate you explaining what bothers you about the seasons because it helps to understand where others are coming from and I think it is important to question our own perceptions and points of view. But I just don't see it the same way on this one. I think what the scoobies went through as individuals at the end of S5 and during the time Buffy was away meaningfully challenged/changed them and Buffy's own experiences were traumatic and changed her too. They weren't ever going to have the same dynamics again and I think they all struggled to redefine their friendships in S6 alongside their individual shifts/traumas and that is what the season is predominantly about. But I think they started to make steps that continued into S7, and they started to manage it. But deeply held issues like that and shifting dynamics as they have can take years to resettle in my experience and that is what I think we are seeing at the end of the show (and into S8-10 really).

I think the relationship with Spike is a big part of S5-7 (and on into the canon comics), but I think it runs alongside Buffy's journey in the seasons and Willow's especially, but it doesn't stop the scoobie relationship being something also explored and developed specifically in S6/7. I can understand why people may not like the direction the show went in and that I do again links to my personal experience of why I find it so relatable how traumatic life experiences can change your relationships no matter how strong and unchangeable you had thought they were. Because it is unsettling and disappointing and very confusing, but people live and part of that creates change. Major life events affects who you are and I think this is what we saw in S6 and for me it was the strongest season and I just really related/connected to it. I've never known another show cover the difficulty of growing up, growing apart through letting each other down but caring enough to try to rebuild like I experienced and the show depicted. It's what cemented how much I love the show.

I've heard plenty of negativity about S6 over the years in fandom and to me it seems to relate mostly to disliking the scoobies fundamentally changing in themselves and Spike's increased relevance/importance in Buffy's life. I enjoy both of those aspects because Spike is my favourite character, his arc across the show is my favourite part, I enjoy his relationship with Buffy and how it is part of showing the balance between romance/friendships start to shift as you grow older, and just because I find so much of what happens between Buffy and the scoobies in S6 & 7 to be things that I experienced and struggled with. But I understand why they would be things that would turn other people off. Our mileage just varies because aside from agreeing there were things they should have explored and explained more (the finances really for me), the things you didn't like I saw as strengths and related to. We just had very different experiences with the season as viewers.

I respect your opinion as well. It's completely cool that you like S6-7 and I'm glad that you've engaged with me to discuss what you liked about those years. I wasn't really debating to turn you off those seasons. That's one of my struggles with this debate about the quality of the UPN years. I feel more at ease having a Watsonian debate about the actual details of the world or the motivations of characters instead of proselytizing why fans should stop enjoying something that brings them pleasure. I'm not out to be That Girl. I pretty much...don't know what to say either. I've really tried to become fond of those seasons with a rewatch and reading quality posts on the subject. This definitely includes your posts on the S6 rewatch thread which I'm lurking in. I actually can really enjoy well-written S6 meta. I just....can't like S6-7 and I feel compelled to say why when the subject comes up. It's like people and brussels sprouts or spinach or something. It's a block. We just differ on this issue.

Stoney
12-11-18, 06:32 PM
I'm quite pro brussels and spinach and I'm a marmit gal too! :biggrin1: But yes, we're just stood in different places on this, on that we definitely agree. :D

I have to say, it's nice to be in that position within fandom and still want to wave and smile at each other. So often these things degenerate and can be unpleasant and this just wasn't/isn't.

Dipstick
12-11-18, 06:47 PM
I'm quite pro brussels and spinach and I'm a marmit gal too! :biggrin1: But yes, we're just stood in different places on this, on that we definitely agree. :D

I have to say, it's nice to be in that position within fandom and still want to wave and smile at each other. So often these things degenerate and can be unpleasant and this just wasn't/isn't.

Hey, we agree on the veggies point! Never had marmite. I just picked the sprouts and spinach because they're the classic divisive foods. But I love them- presently salivating for Thanksgiving when I'll make fried brussels with orange slices and spinach-artichoke stuffing. I, personally, like every food except for mayonnaise so I had to come up with commonly divisive foodstuffs. I agree that it's great that we can disagree on big issues and still be friendly.

Topic: I agree with American Aurura upthread about having a healthy dose of cynicism on the veracity of these "reactions."

Sosa lola
13-11-18, 07:26 AM
I understand what bothers you about S6, Dipstick, and I agree with your points as well. I do see a shift in the way the Scoobies are presented in S1 to S5 in comparison to S6. Vampmogs's argument about the staging is very valid.

One of my personal dislikes of the shift is how Xander is turned into a plot device character to move the plot forwards or to get a funny joke in. Like the sole purpose of Xander summoning Sweet is to have the "queen" joke, and it's got nothing to do with the character. I don't mind the action itself. Xander could summon Sweet, I just wanna see how that action is affecting his character. I would have loved to see Giles rip him a new one for being irresponsible. I would have liked Xander to be soaked in guilt for almost getting Buffy killed and the people who were killed because of his actions. I would have liked to see Spike call him on it. Anything. Perhaps have that experience change the way he perceives things.

I also hate the backslide of the character without much input on why the character is backsliding. In S2 BB&B, Xander also played with magic, but in that episode he took responsibility for his actions and informed Giles about what happened right when things got out of hand. Xander knew people were being killed because of the singing spell and yet he didn't tell anyone, not to mention him not singing about summoning Sweet in "I've Got A Theory". A very important plot hole.

One more thing that bothers me, Xander's loss of street smarts and the way he disgustingly embraced his inner clown - but that problem started from middle S3 in an attempt to make fans forget about The Lie apparently - and Xander passing out in Tabula Rasa bothers me so much when I know that a much braver and smarter S1 Xander argued with Buffy that he'd save Jesse from the vampires he just learned they existed.

I also have a lot of issues with how Willow changed from "don't aim at the horsies" to killing a deer with a straight expression on her face in a span of one summer break. Another thing I've noticed is how useless the Scoobies became without Buffy in S6. The opening scene in Bargaining Part 1 was so ridiculous. Yes, Buffy is important, but I'm very sure two powerful witches, a vampire, a trained watcher, an experienced carpenter and a Buffybot could handle a pack of vampires in a matter of seconds. Teenage Xander, Willow and Oz showed far more competence in early S3 than the S6 gang.

But I do prefer positivity over negativity and I'm trying to find the positivity. The S6 Rewatch thread is a great place to dig deep into the characters. I cherish that thread!

Silver1
14-11-18, 09:49 PM
I'll stick this here. "Well, that was something"

Oh god I feel sorry for him. I think he's was hoping his lady friend was going to be impressed by this iconic story, and to say she comes across as severely underwhelmed is an understatement imo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqKrqsA4NBw

KingofCretins
15-11-18, 05:41 PM
Well --

A) Genuine horror and disbelief at the AR. Lots of "stop it" and "no" (much like Buffy herself I suppose). Too stricken to comment at all, she said she had nothing to say about it before pressing on. She had said after Spike defined love/trust that they reminded her of Delena; I actually said aloud "she will regret that in about 45 seconds.

B). Silent shock, horror, and comprehension. Not a word spoken after Warren opened fire. I have seen reactors try to rationalize or deny what they saw and its significance, none of that from her. She got it.

Priceless
15-11-18, 05:43 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fY5w4LX0D2k&t=67s

Silver1
15-11-18, 05:45 PM
I notice she wasn't paying much attention during parts of this. Nor did she seem that 'enthused'.

Has the series broken her?

HowiMetdaSlayer
15-11-18, 05:54 PM
Does anyone watch any of the Wynonna Earp ones? Some of the WayHaught ones are hysterical! :p

Priceless
15-11-18, 06:10 PM
I notice she wasn't paying much attention during parts of this. Nor did she seem that 'enthused'.

Has the series broken her?

She was in tears. I felt for her. Hell's Bells is a miserable episode :(

Silver1
15-11-18, 07:13 PM
Weirdly enough out of the entire episode the bit that breaks my heart the most is when Anya says "I get to be with my best friend forever". Oh god.......:cutecry:

Priceless
15-11-18, 07:25 PM
Weirdly enough out of the entire episode the bit that breaks my heart the most is when Anya says "I get to be with my best friend forever". Oh god.......:cutecry:

Yes! That was such a sweet moment, made worse when you know what's coming. I always feel awful when Anya's walking down the aisle by herself, then just stops, like her whole world has just come to a halt :(

Stoney
16-11-18, 12:39 AM
A) Genuine horror and disbelief at the AR. Lots of "stop it" and "no" (much like Buffy herself I suppose). Too stricken to comment at all, she said she had nothing to say about it before pressing on. She had said after Spike defined love/trust that they reminded her of Delena; I actually said aloud "she will regret that in about 45 seconds.

As you've watched her reactions through the season (I think) didn't she show any sign of catching the points throughout which deliberately showed all the ways it was unhealthy and the many times we saw that Spike couldn't draw moral boundaries? Hopefully what follows with the season end will give her a sense of what the lack was that is being reached for.

KingofCretins
16-11-18, 01:06 AM
As you've watched her reactions through the season (I think) didn't she show any sign of catching the points throughout which deliberately showed all the ways it was unhealthy and the many times we saw that Spike couldn't draw moral boundaries? Hopefully what follows with the season end will give her a sense of what the lack was that is being reached for.

Honestly, I never picked up the slightest genuine discomfort with the direction of Spike and Buffy's relationship as it descends from "Smashed" through "Dead Things", or any sense that she was being convinced by Buffy's (and Spike's) contemplations on it from "Older and Far Away" through "Hell's Bells". She didn't like the hook-up in "Entropy" but that seemed to mostly be because it was an implicit obstacle to him and Buffy. I don't want to be unfair to her, but no, I don't get the sense that she's ever really grokked the moral and psychological ickiness that was building, the schism created by Spike's soulless perspective, etc. Which, incidentally, is also reflected in his scene in "Villains" when she immediately leaps to the desired conclusion that he wants his chip out. She doesn't even question that direction. But again, her vampire genre fiction perspective hasn't been primarily shaped by "Buffy" nearly as much as TVD where honestly the decision to get his chip out or soul in is probably way overwrought compared to if he's struggling to just "turn it off" or "turn it on" like the vampires caught in that show's moral turnstyle were wont.

I'm moving on to "Two to Go" now; she has yet to voice an analytical word about the AR.

Stoney
16-11-18, 03:16 AM
Well when she sees where it goes perhaps it will make her reflect back and consider all the examples of when his moral limitations were shown throughout too, from taking pleasure at the demon bikers' destruction and on. She might just accept his revealed determination the soul would bridge a gap and see it with the distinction within this specific verse. I can see why having TVD's self controlled on/off switch as a firm example in her mind could have had her lean towards thinking walking the line was something he could choose to do in a way the writers of BtVS wanted to show wasn't the case.

flow
16-11-18, 10:06 AM
She has said, that she didn`t like Spike`s cocky attitude in As You Were.

Seeing Red is not up on YouTube yet. I have watched Hells Bells and had the impression, that she expected Xander to go through with the wedding after the demon who had pretended to be an older version of him had been killed. She wasn`t really impressed by the horrible future the demon showed Xander and repeatedly asked, why he wouldn`t get a divorce. Which is - I think - a valid question. She was more shocked by Xander`s definite decision to not go through with the wedding than by the first time he ran away and she was in tears about that.

She also immediately said, that Buffy and Willow should be comforting Anya, instead of worrying about Xander.

flow