Connor what is he?

[Vampmaster]

Hi everyone :D

So I am in the middle of Angel Season 4 and as always when rewatching a Buffyverse season I got a burst of inspiration to start a new topic. Since he features pretty promiently in this season and his powers are explored somewhat. I thought that it would be fun to examine the character of Connor and his powers. While I will be mainly looking at the power side of things other things in relation to his character are also welcome to being discussed in this topic.

So from the show we learn a number of different things about the character of Connor he is the son of two vampires a "miracle child" and is the only known person in history to be born in this way. As a result of this he holds a number of abilities of a vampire some of these abilities include super strength, speed, stamina, reflexes, hearing, and smell. This is also teamed up with training in hunting and combat provided to him by Holtz via his up bringing in the terrible hell dimenision of Quor Toth.

In the show the question of what is Connor has been brought up numberous times even by Connor himself. Some examples of this is Connor visiting the offices of Walfram and Hart in Habeas Corpses. Wolfram and Hart even display interest in Connor which clearly shows that they are unaware of what Connor is. Now we all know from Skip in Season 4 that Connor was brought about by Jasmine using the life that was given to Darla in the season 2 episode Reprise. However while that gives us a clear answer as to how Connor came to be. It does not tell us exactly what he is...

So I present the question to you? What do you think Connor is? Do you think he is simply a hybrid between a vampire and a human who has the abilities of a vampire without the downfall... Do you think he is simply a regular human being endowed with supernatural energy similar to the way that a slayer is. Do you think perhaps he is a male slayer of sorts which is why he is shown to be able to at least somewhat hold his own even if not defeat a vampire slayer such as Faith. Or do you think he is something completely different all together. A type of being we have never seen before and never will again see in the Buffyverse?

[NileQT87]

he's part-human and part-demon.

probably about as close as possible that one could be to a male slayer... but with abilities more specifically linked to vampires.

buffy doesn't have advanced smell or hearing... connor does... as does angel (and all vampires).

connor is proven to be not entirely human when he gets smacked by the no-demon-violence spell on the hyperion... but physiologically he shows up human and has a human soul. he has some demon-based abilities that must have made it into his physiology mystically (and can't be detected by doctors). and angel and darla clearly can tell that the soul is a human one.

similarly, slayers show up as human, have human souls, but have a diluted demon essence that gives them their strength. i'd imagine the furies' spell would spank them as well.

[Nina]

He is one of a kind, so it doesn't have a name I guess.

I think that Connor is human with the powers of a vampire. He has a human soul, he is mortal and he is alive. He doesn't have any demon things like a tail or horns. He is a normal person, only just like the slayer, he does have a part demon in him. He is stronger and faster as normal people.
He is like a male slayer I guess, although he is faster and less strong. His powers are different, but he is a human with superpowers.

I don't believe he is a demon, there is no indication that he is less human as Buffy or Faith.

[KingofCretins]

Slayers have advanced hearing, one assumes, based on Buffy's being able to find Marcie in "Out of Mind, Out of Sight" (one of my favorite moments of the series, a real moment of Slayer becoming for her).

The inclination is to assume Connor is part demon, but I'm not sure. The only on-point evidence we have is that the sanctuary spell hit him when he attacked Angelus in "Release", but, I take everything that happened in the Hyperion while JasmineCordy was there with a grain of salt -- she could have manipulated that specifically to mess with his head.

I personally suspect he's like a Slayer (a human with demonic powers), but with a different origin. He appears to be more agile than Slayers, and faster over ground. But Faith appeared to have him beat on straight up physical strength. He's stronger than vampires, but not as strong as Slayers. He has nearly vampiric sense of smell, and more acute hearing than we've seen of vampires or of Slayers.

[kana]

He he, Connor wondered this for while didn't he. Jasmine's ability to 'fix' the spell when she wanted does put things in question because it worked to further make Connor feel isolated from the group and closer to 'Cordy' who was also part demon. Even if Jasmine is immune we know the spell didn't work on Connor second time around because he managed to attack Gunn.

I'd say a mystically enhanced human being akin to a Slayer.. One assumes if he were a part demon physiologically Angel might sense it, like he did with Doyle. I'd have to say the jury's out on that one.

[Veverka]

Good question. Yes, it's odd indeed, isn't it--- basically my thoughts are that he is mostly human.

However, when Darla and Angel became vamps they 'traded up on the food chain' and subsequently got some kind of physical change. It affected their speed, their faces, their teeth, their everything (so the idea that a vamp is merely a demon spirit 'residing' in a human body is false) and, as we see by Connor, changes the DNA/genetic material they have to pass on to their offspring, which Connor got in terms of speed, hearing, smell- extensions on what he would have with two human parents, but not the teeth or game face aspect)

This of course doesn't even attempt to figure out why Angel and Darla could do what they did and procreate, just a bit of the how. In my mind, anyway. So when I say he's mostly human, I'm refering to the parts of him that define him that way (ie; soul, lack of vamp teeth, lack of game face, ability to go out in sunlight, need for regular food) rather than concentrating on the non human parts which I see as being extensions of what he could have had, due to his parents being what they were.

Make sense? :roll:

[Mabus]

I'm reasonably sure that Connor is part demon, and the most likely sort of demon is the Van-Tal--the same kind of demon that originally gave rise to vampires. He's human enough to pass during a standard infant physical, but then it's possible some of his superhuman traits hadn't appeared at that point; it could also be that some of the differences are on a biochemical level and weren't obvious to the examining physician. I've raised the question before of what might happen when Connor dies--if he already has a vampire's demonic essence in him, he might very well turn automatically.

I'm reasonably sure that it's mentioned somewhere that a Slayer's senses are enhanced, though Buffy's seem to be less acute than average; I don't see any reason each Slayer should have the same precise degree of power. However, it does seem that their senses are not on the same level as a vampire's.

Re: the Furies' spell--seems to me we saw Faith get in a few punches in on Angelus while the Hyperion was enchanted. That suggests that the Slayer essence is either too weak or too unusual to be affected by the spell. The same appears not to be true of Connor.

[NileQT87]

buffy didn't hear marcie. she felt her moving--a sensing of air/wind/breathing (and cordelia had to shut up so buffy could detect it). slayers don't have advanced hearing or smell... or buffy would have heard angel a whole lot more often sneaking up on her. she felt a physical connection to angel, in particular, but it wasn't an aural thing, as he frequently popped up behind her... several other vampires did as well.

on the other hand, connor could hear fred and gunn talking from across a beach and angel heard fred/gunn and things that were in the hotel from entirely different parts of the hotel. both connor and angel frequently could track something across a city by smell. buffy never exhibited such powers.

slayers are mostly strength, advanced healing and agility. slayers are stronger than a general vampire (exceptions made for extreme size and experience differences) also, angel and penn both exhibited speed that no slayer has been seen to have. slayers and vampires also can both jump great distances and heights pretty equally.

slayers are supposed to be able to hone in on vampires... buffy never developed that skill. she guessed by reading body language and fashion cues.

[sueworld]

Count me on the whole 'Connor is a supernatural being' malarkey.

Considering his parentage, he can't be anything else but can he. Although he appears human, all his abilities point to otherwise. He's truly unique in the Buffyverse and it would be fascinating to see what type of person he would grow up to be like.

[Mabus]

slayers are supposed to be able to hone in on vampires... buffy never developed that skill. she guessed by reading body language and fashion cues.

It's getting off topic, but you know, I was never really sure about this. Did Buffy really never develop the skill, or were her guesses accurate because she was perceiving vampires and demons subliminally? The most interesting example, actually, is Ted--did she really know something was wrong about him, or was it really just teenage upset about Joyce possibly marrying him?

[Anon]

buffy didn't hear marcie. she felt her moving--a sensing of air/wind/breathing (and cordelia had to shut up so buffy could detect it). slayers don't have advanced hearing or smell... or buffy would have heard angel a whole lot more often sneaking up on her. she felt a physical connection to angel, in particular, but it wasn't an aural thing, as he frequently popped up behind her... several other vampires did as well.

on the other hand, connor could hear fred and gunn talking from across a beach and angel heard fred/gunn and things that were in the hotel from entirely different parts of the hotel. both connor and angel frequently could track something across a city by smell. buffy never exhibited such powers.

slayers are mostly strength, advanced healing and agility. slayers are stronger than a general vampire (exceptions made for extreme size and experience differences) also, angel and penn both exhibited speed that no slayer has been seen to have. slayers and vampires also can both jump great distances and heights pretty equally.

slayers are supposed to be able to hone in on vampires... buffy never developed that skill. she guessed by reading body language and fashion cues.Actually, I'm fairly sure that enhanced hearing is part of being a slayer and I'm also fairly sure that Buffy could sense vampires.

As for Connor, I would agree that he's definitely a supernatural being of some kind, but I don't think there's any term to describe him. He the first of his kind, after all. Male slayer would be a good one to go with for now.

[kana]

As for Buffy's ability to sense vampires? I think she can or could if she actually concentrated but she's "sensed" them by looking at idiosyncrasies and clothing as well. She's also 'sensed' Angel but that could be a love thang.

[Ojuice5001]

Count me on the whole 'Connor is a supernatural being' malarkey.

Considering his parentage, he can't be anything else but can he. Although he appears human, all his abilities point to otherwise. He's truly unique in the Buffyverse and it would be fascinating to see what type of person he would grow up to be like.

Yes. I'd say the closest analogy to what Connor is would be the Children of the Senior Partners. Eve, Hamilton, and Connor look and act like humans, were created for a specific purpose by super-demonic forces (in Connor's case, that would be Jasmine), and have superpowers. Whatever you would call a being similar to the CotSP, but with different affiliations, that's what Connor is.

[Vampmaster]

Good question. Yes, it's odd indeed, isn't it--- basically my thoughts are that he is mostly human.

However, when Darla and Angel became vamps they 'traded up on the food chain' and subsequently got some kind of physical change. It affected their speed, their faces, their teeth, their everything (so the idea that a vamp is merely a demon spirit 'residing' in a human body is false) and, as we see by Connor, changes the DNA/genetic material they have to pass on to their offspring, which Connor got in terms of speed, hearing, smell- extensions on what he would have with two human parents, but not the teeth or game face aspect)

But the only question we have to ask ourselves would genetics be considered a strong attribute in forming the being of Connor? After all as we know genetically vampires are incapable of having children and everything about them is dead, as the show states various times that the human is dead and that it is merely a demon reanimating their body. Does this mean that perhaps Connor powers don't come from Angel and Darla themselves, but rather the circumstances around his birth? Perhaps Jasmine who we know oversaw the birth was the one to choose what powers Connor was granted.

I'm reasonably sure that it's mentioned somewhere that a Slayer's senses are enhanced, though Buffy's seem to be less acute than average; I don't see any reason each Slayer should have the same precise degree of power. However, it does seem that their senses are not on the same level as a vampire's.

Yes I would have to agree with you! It is stated by Giles in WTTH (I think that was the episode) that Buffy as a slayer should be able to use her heightened senses to be able to tell from amongst the huge crowd in th bronze. The vampire in the room however this is the one aspect of being a slayer that we see Buffy never fully training herself on instead choosing to use different details about the vampires such as their fashion sense. Connor on the other hand was raised in Quor Toth the worst of the demon dimensions and was taught to use all of his keen senses. Could his extra hunting abilities be possibly similar though slightly more atune than the power that a slayer should have when it comes to sensing Supernatural beings such as vampires?

Re: the Furies' spell--seems to me we saw Faith get in a few punches in on Angelus while the Hyperion was enchanted. That suggests that the Slayer essence is either too weak or too unusual to be affected by the spell. The same appears not to be true of Connor.

Well as KoC said previously we can't take what happened in the hyperion in Release too seriously as we know that JasmineCordy has the ability to manipulate both for herself and for others which was shown through her ability to push Connor about and then we see her change it for Connor when we can see him hit Gunn.As Kana said this could have been done to mess with Connor's head.

It's getting off topic, but you know, I was never really sure about this. Did Buffy really never develop the skill, or were her guesses accurate because she was perceiving vampires and demons subliminally? The most interesting example, actually, is Ted--did she really know something was wrong about him, or was it really just teenage upset about Joyce possibly marrying him?

Well I think with Ted it was a mixture of both. The human side of Buffy was hostile towards the idea of her mother dating, while the slayer in her was at least somewhat aware of the fact that their was something wrong. This of course highlights her existing hostile feelings towards Ted. Look at how she knew not to trust his cooking or other things about him right from the beginning even before Ted started to show the less positive elements of his personality.

Yes. I'd say the closest analogy to what Connor is would be the Children of the Senior Partners. Eve, Hamilton, and Connor look and act like humans, were created for a specific purpose by super-demonic forces (in Connor's case, that would be Jasmine), and have superpowers. Whatever you would call a being similar to the CotSP, but with different affiliations, that's what Connor is.

Actually I think what you are saying would make a lot of sense however there are some things that bother me. The children of the Senior Partners are instantly connected to them. If Connor were a child of Jasmine in the same way wouldn't he of been connected to her from birth, secondly from what we can tell the children of the Senior Partners magically appear as adult humans when they are needed by the Senior Partners. Also we have never been given any indication in the show that Connor is an immortal being in the same sense as the children of the senior Partners and certainly not apart of any contract.

So while I think to a certain degree this makes sense. I still don't think that Connor could be considered the same type of being as Eve and Hamiltion.

[Anon]

As for Buffy's ability to sense vampires? I think she can or could if she actually concentrated but she's "sensed" them by looking at idiosyncrasies and clothing as well. She's also 'sensed' Angel but that could be a love thang.Fortunately, I can find canonical evidence to confirm that Buffy is able to sense vampires. In Consequences Buffy says:
Actually, yeah. I didn't get the bad guy vibe off of him.
Buffy definitely does have the ability to sense demons. Not only that, she seems to rely on it to distinguish human from demon.

Actually I think what you are saying would make a lot of sense however there are some things that bother me. The children of the Senior Partners are instantly connected to them. If Connor were a child of Jasmine in the same way wouldn't he of been connected to her from birth, secondly from what we can tell the children of the Senior Partners magically appear as adult humans when they are needed by the Senior Partners. Also we have never been given any indication in the show that Connor is an immortal being in the same sense as the children of the senior Partners and certainly not apart of any contract.

So while I think to a certain degree this makes sense. I still don't think that Connor could be considered the same type of being as Eve and Hamiltion.I don't think there is any point of reference for Connor. He is quite literally one of a kind and in a class all by himself.

[Vampmaster]

Fortunately, I can find canonical evidence to confirm that Buffy is able to sense vampires. In Consequences Buffy says:

Buffy definitely does have the ability to sense demons. Not only that, she seems to rely on it to distinguish human from demon.

Your right Buffy has chosen that to a certain extent she has mastered the abilities of sensing a demon or a vampire. However we have also never seen Buffy display the abilities that Giles describes to us that a truly powerful slayer should have in Welcome To The Hellmouth. Then again since we know Faith doesn't seem to have this ability either, and neither did Kendra from the little that we saw her. It is kind of hard to say exactly how far a slayer can go with her sensing abilities. Also to point out something in your quote Buffy herself states that she couldn't sense demon from him. Thus proving that she used something other than her senses to determine whether someone was demon or not :) Though nice quote.

I don't think there is any point of reference for Connor. He is quite literally one of a kind and in a class all by himself.

But see thats the thing is he really? Surely Connor will at least have to be determined at some point or another. I mean how do we not know that people with his abilities will not become more common as the years go by. Especially if his children inherit his powers. So the question is will he have to be classifed as something new? Or will he and his descendant simply be placed into existing categories such as Slayers?

[Anon]

Your right Buffy has chosen that to a certain extent she has mastered the abilities of sensing a demon or a vampire. However we have also never seen Buffy display the abilities that Giles describes to us that a truly powerful slayer should have in Welcome To The Hellmouth. Then again since we know Faith doesn't seem to have this ability either, and neither did Kendra from the little that we saw her. It is kind of hard to say exactly how far a slayer can go with her sensing abilities. Also to point out something in your quote Buffy herself states that she couldn't sense demon from him. Thus proving that she used something other than her senses to determine whether someone was demon or not :) Though nice quote.What? If that 'bad guy vibe' wasn't what Giles was talking about in WTTH, I don't know what was. Also, she was surprised when she didn't sense it from the Mayor. Apparently he was the exception, not the rule. Also, in the previous episode, Buffy was able to spot that Allan wasn't a vampire, and things such as fashion sense would be nowhere near reliable enough for that.

But see thats the thing is he really? Surely Connor will at least have to be determined at some point or another. I mean how do we not know that people with his abilities will not become more common as the years go by. Especially if his children inherit his powers. So the question is will he have to be classifed as something new? Or will he and his descendant simply be placed into existing categories such as Slayers?They might have to invent a new catagory, but he doesn't fit into any existing one.

[KingofCretins]

I'm not sure we can make any assumptions about Connor having *any* direct and actual connection to Angel or Darla in a physical sense -- they have no reproductive material to contribute to him anyway, most likely. Connor was the result of a carefully orchestrated plan for Jasmine, and I suspect that whatever he is is not the result of the factors that created him, but rather the purpose for which he was created. He has personality traits in common with his parents, and certain powers, but I tend to think he is, genetically, whatever Jasmine needed him to be, since he was providing her physical make-up.

Also, don't give Buffy a pass for Ted. She didn't know or even suspect. It was no different than when Wesley shot Cyber-Roger -- he was absolutely certain that was his father. Buffy thought this awful man had usurped her home and then had hit her and gave her license to fight him, and that's it.

[Vampmaster]

What? If that 'bad guy vibe' wasn't what Giles was talking about in WTTH, I don't know what was. Also, she was surprised when she didn't sense it from the Mayor. Apparently he was the exception, not the rule.

Yeah, but you see the problem for me is up until season 3 the villains that Buffy had faced were bad in the obvious sort of way. In season 1 she faces the master a vampire whom I think it would be very difficult to miss as being apart of the vampire category. Season 2 she faces Drusilla and Spike and Angelus. Hell if you want to talk about a demonstration of Buffy not being able to sense a vampire when he is near her and manipulating her then rewatch School Hard.

Spike: Where's the phone? I need to call the police. There's some big
guy out there trying to bite somebody.

Buffy runs from the dance floor. Spike watches her go.

That just one example, but are you seriously saying that the enhanced features which Giles describes as allowing her to sense a vampire at the other side of the room would allow for her not to sense a vampire who was actually standing near her and talking to her? I am sorry, but I just don't buy that. And I am sure if I thought about it. I could find other examples of Buffy being fooled by less than human beings. But as I said previously its hard for us to know how far the slayers sensing/hunting abilities go as we have never been shown it on the show.

I'm not sure we can make any assumptions about Connor having *any* direct and actual connection to Angel or Darla in a physical sense -- they have no reproductive material to contribute to him anyway, most likely. Connor was the result of a carefully orchestrated plan for Jasmine, and I suspect that whatever he is is not the result of the factors that created him, but rather the purpose for which he was created. He has personality traits in common with his parents, and certain powers, but I tend to think he is, genetically, whatever Jasmine needed him to be, since he was providing her physical make-up.I'm not sure we can make any assumptions about Connor having *any* direct and actual connection to Angel or Darla in a physical sense -- they have no reproductive material to contribute to him anyway, most likely. Connor was the result of a carefully orchestrated plan for Jasmine, and I suspect that whatever he is is not the result of the factors that created him, but rather the purpose for which he was created. He has personality traits in common with his parents, and certain powers, but I tend to think he is, genetically, whatever Jasmine needed him to be, since he was providing her physical make-up.

Thank you KoC! Thats what I was trying to say earlier only in less elequont terms than yourself. I agree exactly with what your saying. I believe that if you were to think about it properly Connor is what Jasmine needed him to be. He has some of the traits of Angel and Darla. In fact I think in some ways Connor could be thought of as being similar to Dawn. She does have some of the attributes of Joyce though from the show we actually get a sense of her being closer to Buffy. But she still isn't Joyce's daughter. He's like Dawn in that way only his birth was real rather than implanted into the other characters heads.

[Anon]

Yeah, but you see the problem for me is up until season 3 the villains that Buffy had faced were bad in the obvious sort of way. In season 1 she faces the master a vampire whom I think it would be very difficult to miss as being apart of the vampire category. Season 2 she faces Drusilla and Spike and Angelus. Hell if you want to talk about a demonstration of Buffy not being able to sense a vampire when he is near her and manipulating her then rewatch School Hard.

That just one example, but are you seriously saying that the enhanced features which Giles describes as allowing her to sense a vampire at the other side of the room would allow for her not to sense a vampire who was actually standing near her and talking to her? I am sorry, but I just don't buy that. And I am sure if I thought about it. I could find other examples of Buffy being fooled by less than human beings. But as I said previously its hard for us to know how far the slayers sensing/hunting abilities go as we have never been shown it on the show.Giles did indicate that it wasn't automatic, and required effort, so if someone caught her off guard or in a hurry, she might miss things. Buffy did make mistakes from time to time, but again this is the exception rather than the rule. I think Buffy's ability to sense vampires is much too accurate to be using a blunt instrument such as dress sense.

[kana]

Fortunately, I can find canonical evidence to confirm that Buffy is able to sense vampires. In Consequences Buffy says:

Quote:
Actually, yeah. I didn't get the bad guy vibe off of him.

Buffy definitely does have the ability to sense demons. Not only that, she seems to rely on it to distinguish human from demon.

I didn't get that at all. I thought that was in reference the concept that it was a surprise that the mayor was black hat which actually strengthens the theory that Buffy is more about emotional, intutive instinct in these things rather than it being preternatural. If she had preternatural senses in the way Angel does she would have known Angel was a vampire right away.

Slayers do however have predatory instincts. They are hunters by nature. Faith kicked into it and Buffy learned to hone it. There is something about hunting vampires that 'feels' natural to them, if of course they embrace it.

But the honing thing? Buffy mainly used 'human' methods to identify bad guys: evidence, instinct and in the cases of Ted and Kathy, plain wishful thinking.

[Vampmaster]

Giles did indicate that it wasn't automatic, and required effort, so if someone caught her off guard or in a hurry, she might miss things. Buffy did make mistakes from time to time, but again this is the exception rather than the rule. I think Buffy's ability to sense vampires is much too accurate to be using a blunt instrument such as dress sense.

Well actually from the way that Giles described it. I was under the impression that with training the slayer should be able to instinctively sense these things. The only reason Buffy requires to focus to do it i because this is her first attempt at it. As for the matter of Buffy sensing being based on small things, such as dressing style. I am gathering this opinion from Buffy herself. Who I think we should trust especially since to my recollection the topic was never brought up again in the show.


Welcome To The Hellmouth
Giles: You should know. Even through this mass and this... din, you should be able to sense them. Well, try! Reach out with your mind. (Buffy looks around) You have to hone your senses, focus until the energy washes over you, until you, you feel every particle of-of--

Buffy: There's one.

Giles: W-where?

Buffy: Right there, talking to that girl.

Giles: You don't know--

Buffy: Oh, please! Look at his jacket. He's got the sleeves rolled up, and the shirt! Deal with that outfit for a moment.

Giles: It's dated?

Buffy: It's carbon dated. Trust me, only someone living underground for ten years would think that was still the look.

Giles: But you didn't... hone.

But the honing thing? Buffy mainly used 'human' methods to identify bad guys: evidence, instinct and in the cases of Ted and Kathy, plain wishful thinking.

Hahah yes I would have to agree with that. But our slayer tends to have a tendency of getting her wishes. Perhaps she's part vegenece demon :roll: (I am only joking)

[Mabus]

I think I've always seen this scene the opposite of the way most people do.

Welcome To The Hellmouth
Giles: You should know. Even through this mass and this... din, you should be able to sense them. Well, try! Reach out with your mind. (Buffy looks around) You have to hone your senses, focus until the energy washes over you, until you, you feel every particle of-of--

Buffy: There's one.

Giles: W-where?

Buffy: Right there, talking to that girl.

Giles: You don't know--

Buffy: Oh, please! Look at his jacket. He's got the sleeves rolled up, and the shirt! Deal with that outfit for a moment.

Giles: It's dated?

Buffy: It's carbon dated. Trust me, only someone living underground for ten years would think that was still the look.

Giles: But you didn't... hone.

Giles tells Buffy she should be able to sense vampires.

Buffy immediately points out one for him and explains how she recognized it.

Giles is miffed because she didn't do it the way he expected, according to tradition--but she's right.

[vampmogs]

Also, don't give Buffy a pass for Ted. She didn't know or even suspect. It was no different than when Wesley shot Cyber-Roger -- he was absolutely certain that was his father. Buffy thought this awful man had usurped her home and then had hit her and gave her license to fight him, and that's it.

Buffy had no idea he wasn't human, but she did think something was up with him and that he was too nice and she turned out to be correct. Whilst she didn't like the idea of him dating her mother I think there was a little more to it than that. I think she picked up on something, that he was quite not right, but yeah had no idea he wasn't human.

[NileQT87]

here's a theory about connor...

the human parts of him came from liam and the unnamed whore. somehow jasmine/the trial's winnings made it possible for a human body to be created that night. like slayers, connor started out from *mostly* human material. the only human material there would be the vampires' once human bodies.

maybe jasmine just sort of turned on some of the reproduction capabilities in angel and darla at the end of the trial. they were then capable of creating life until they did so.

so connor has the genetic material of his "parents"... making him biologically the child of what was left of angel and darla's human bodies. like cloning--taking genetic material from the human parts, rather than the demons (the demons not having that kind of reproduction). but then, the demon attributes leaked in as well... giving connor a whole lot of capabilities that are completely connected to a vampire's abilities. he's about as strong as a vampire (and weaker than faith--a slayer), he has hearing and smell--which he uses to track people across los angeles--buffy has NEVER been shown to track somebody by sound or smell--and definitely not through large crowds and entire cities.

buffy just used body language, demeanor and fashion choices... in other words, if the guy was pale and wore a lot of dark clothes. she didn't identify angel after MONTHS--she just knew when he was specifically around, but he snuck up on her a lot as well. she didn't notice spike either at the bronze. she also didn't preternaturally sense kathy or ted... she just hoped that she could kill them. there were behavioral cues that she read... but nothing like 'not human', 'demon' or 'vampire'. just: 'too nice', 'stepford', 'not enough human flaws', 'bizarre behavior', etc... it was lucky guesswork.

granted, connor seemed not to guess that cordy was part demon until she told him... whereas angel was well-known for being able to sense somebody wasn't human immediately by smell... buffy guessed. angel smelled.

for example: i doubt buffy could smell the fact that wesley had sex the night before with a blonde (peroxide). in fact, angel could even identify people who had been around each other recently--wesley and lilah, for example, whom he could smell all over each other. her senses weren't that good. in fact, she even thought it was sick that angel was able to smell spike on her... i think that proves that slayers don't have that ability and vampires do.

buffy used entirely human ways of identifying things that she thought were wrong. that was one of the ways she broke the mold of being a slayer. she relied on her human strengths as much as her slayer abilities... which is why she succeeded in helpless in defeating kralik. she wasn't helpless because her abilities had always been half linked to her human self-reliance and thinking on her feet in human ways.

and we never got any preternatural hearing from slayers either... but we got it from angel and connor.

what jasmine needed was someone with the genetic material to make her--someone who had genetically human material, but somebody stronger than human. cordy was demonized because she needed to be stronger than human to sustain jasmine... but we can't argue that cordy still had the majority of her average human genetic makeup. same with connor as with cordy...

most of him is human except for a bit of a diluted demon essence (without a demon presence). which is why he's closer to a slayer who is run by a human with a demon essence and no actual demon presence. a vampire is a dead human run entirely by a demon. an ensouled vampire is a case of two beings in one. connor has a vampire demon's essence, but a human body. the only way he got that human body was the genetic material that still existed from liam and the whore, but jasmine also needed a leaking of demon essence to make him superhuman so she could birth herself.

[KingofCretins]

I still don't see where the 'two beings in one' construction of vampire metaphysics is coming from. The demon is given a soul, a conscience in Buffy terms, it is not given a possession by the former occupant.

My other major problem with the idea that the Angel or Darla contribute any genetic material is that... they're dead. Not sure they can contribute in that regard. I mean, if they could, the whole vampire birth thing wouldn't be unlikely or rare in the first place, would it?

[NileQT87]

i think you're skipping the fact that angel earned a life in the trial that was unused. the british butler guy was probably one of jasmine's acolytes who probably never intended to save darla in the first place. it was to make connor's birth possible. that was why angel and darla ended up with a kid in reprise... because of something earned in the trial. it could very well have been jasmine who stuck it in lorne's readings (his knowledge bank/rolodex) in the first place to send angel and darla to the trials.

for at least one night (if not from the trial to the conception), angel and darla weren't quite so infertile.

and i beg to differ on demon occupancy of dead human meatbags. paraphrased: it walks, talks and remembers your life, but it's not you. that's always been the deal... repeated from season 1 btvs to the end of ats.

[KingofCretins]

The way you say that makes me think the whole vampire birth/conception question would have made much more sense if Angel and Darla had made love while she was human, after "The Trial", and that she got pregnant before getting vamped. Then you could just say Angel earned a life, orchestrated by Jasmine as you say, and Darla being brought back to be the host for that life, also orchestrated by Jasmine.

Two reasons I bet they wouldn't have done that, even if they thought about it -- it's a little too much like Blade's backstory, and the idea of Angel actually having a love interest that wasn't just him having desperation sex would have driven the 'shippers up the wall :)

[Mabus]

Dan, you're right about Darla and Angel's actual flesh--under normal circumstances. But I think that's precisely the issue here--the circumstances are not normal. How? It's hard to say. But once you include the basic idea--Darla, a vampire, is pregnant--I don't see anything more incredible about the child somehow being the combination of her genes and Angel's. Yes, it's a bizarre supernatural event--we already knew that.

[Anon]

Well actually from the way that Giles described it. I was under the impression that with training the slayer should be able to instinctively sense these things. The only reason Buffy requires to focus to do it i because this is her first attempt at it.What about where he said that she had to be highly attuned to her environment and home in on the demons? There was nothing to indicate that it was a one time only deal.

As for the matter of Buffy sensing being based on small things, such as dressing style. I am gathering this opinion from Buffy herself. Who I think we should trust especially since to my recollection the topic was never brought up again in the show.You mean aside from the quote in Consequences?

I didn't get that at all. I thought that was in reference the concept that it was a surprise that the mayor was black hat which actually strengthens the theory that Buffy is more about emotional, intutive instinct in these things rather than it being preternatural. If she had preternatural senses in the way Angel does she would have known Angel was a vampire right away.I think that Buffy has some sort of preternatural sixth sense with relation to vampires and demons. This is not like Angel being able to smell other vampires or demons. If you look at the quote, Buffy is surprised because she couldn't sense anything from the Mayor the way she preseumably can do normally with demons.

so connor has the genetic material of his "parents"... making him biologically the child of what was left of angel and darla's human bodies. like cloning--taking genetic material from the human parts, rather than the demons (the demons not having that kind of reproduction). but then, the demon attributes leaked in as well... giving connor a whole lot of capabilities that are completely connected to a vampire's abilities. he's about as strong as a vampire (and weaker than faith--a slayer), he has hearing and smell--which he uses to track people across los angelesI agree that Connor probably has his parents DNA with some demonic traits mixed in.

--buffy has NEVER been shown to track somebody by sound or smell--and definitely not through large crowds and entire cities.I don't recall Conner relying on sound to do much tracking. Smell, yes, and it's pretty clear that slayers don't have an enhanced sense of smell.

buffy used entirely human ways of identifying things that she thought were wrong. that was one of the ways she broke the mold of being a slayer. she relied on her human strengths as much as her slayer abilities... which is why she succeeded in helpless in defeating kralik. she wasn't helpless because her abilities had always been half linked to her human self-reliance and thinking on her feet in human ways.According to this, Buffy would have been the first slayer to live through her Cruciamentum. Strangely enough, the Cruciamentum is takes place when a slayer turns eighteen and the average life expectancy is twenty.

buffy just used body language, demeanor and fashion choices... in other words, if the guy was pale and wore a lot of dark clothes. she didn't identify angel after MONTHS--she just knew when he was specifically around, but he snuck up on her a lot as well. she didn't notice spike either at the bronze. she also didn't preternaturally sense kathy or ted... she just hoped that she could kill them. there were behavioral cues that she read... but nothing like 'not human', 'demon' or 'vampire'. just: 'too nice', 'stepford', 'not enough human flaws', 'bizarre behavior', etc... it was lucky guesswork.It was much too accurate to just be guesswork. Like I said, fashion choices and body language are blunt instruments. They aren't reliable and even if you can sometimes use them to tell when someone is a vampire, you can't use it to tell when someone isn't one.

I still don't see where the 'two beings in one' construction of vampire metaphysics is coming from. The demon is given a soul, a conscience in Buffy terms, it is not given a possession by the former occupant.A vampire being given a soul is more like the former occupant of a house returning to stay there and locking the present occupant in the basement.

[vampmogs]

I think that Buffy has some sort of preternatural sixth sense with relation to vampires and demons. This is not like Angel being able to smell other vampires or demons. If you look at the quote, Buffy is surprised because she couldn't sense anything from the Mayor the way she preseumably can do normally with demons.

Whilst I agree with the idea that Buffy can sense vampires, I must say I didn't get the impression this is what Buffy meant during this scene. I think the 'bad guy vibe' was more a reference to Buffy's shock that the Mayor was a black hat because of how successfully he managed to portray such a good wholesome guy. Faith replies to Buffy talking about people not showing their true face which indicates she didn't think Buffy was talking about the vibe in the mythic slayer sense either, but just more in the general sense.

[kana]

Lots here so I'll just quote Anon as he's quoted a few folk :)

What about where he said that she had to be highly attuned to her environment and home in on the demons? There was nothing to indicate that it was a one time only deal.

I wouldn't say that Buffy is unabled to do it. If Giles says Slayers can do this I believe him, however I think Buffy's used other methods as well.

I think that Buffy has some sort of preternatural sixth sense with relation to vampires and demons. This is not like Angel being able to smell other vampires or demons. If you look at the quote, Buffy is surprised because she couldn't sense anything from the Mayor the way she preseumably can do normally with demons.

I think Buffy has this ability I just don't know if she always uses it. Both the vampires she senses in WttH and FtH happen to be retro vamps. It's just as likely she used that instinct as well as a preternatural one. She should have been able to sense Angel and catch a lot more vamps if she honed more. I think she is developing this skill. And the mayor quote? Still could refer to instinctual vibes as well as supernatural. It's unclear, not canonical evidence.

I agree that Connor probably has his parents DNA with some demonic traits mixed in.

Agreed.

I don't recall Conner relying on sound to do much tracking. Smell, yes, and it's pretty clear that slayers don't have an enhanced sense of smell.

Agreed. She talked about the vampire smelling thing as if it's something she herself doesn't possess. And Wes stated that it would be difficult to track Angelus without Connor to Faith who again used conventional human methods of tracking.



It was much too accurate to just be guesswork. Like I said, fashion choices and body language are blunt instruments. They aren't reliable and even if you can sometimes use them to tell when someone is a vampire, you can't use it to tell when someone isn't one.

Indeed they are but there is not enough cases of her using this skill that couldn't be attributed to some kind of emotional instinct etc. Buffy possesses this skill no doubt but we don't see her using it that much.

A vampire being given a soul is more like the former occupant of a house returning to stay there and locking the present occupant in the basement

Ewww, staying away from the whole soul thing. Joss was confused as to what the soul is. Both theories work but theory 2 is more 'satisfying' in Angel and Spike's case thematically. At the very least different characters on the show have different views. My fave character Angel is wonderfully inconsistent and Spike is not too bad either. His mother wasn't her, it was the demon who said those horrid things, yet it isn't the demon who gets the soul, it's him, the continuing entity. Sounds a bit convenient if you ask me Spikey.

[Anon]

I wouldn't say that Buffy is unabled to do it. If Giles says Slayers can do this I believe him, however I think Buffy's used other methods as well.Possibly.

I think Buffy has this ability I just don't know if she always uses it. Both the vampires she senses in WttH and FtH happen to be retro vamps. It's just as likely she used that instinct as well as a preternatural one. She should have been able to sense Angel and catch a lot more vamps if she honed more.Not sure that this follows. Besides, if all Buffy was using was a set of visual clues then the difference between her and Faith's ability to distinguish vampires from humans is somewhat harder to explain. I'll admit that there isn't much that has to be attributed to Buffy's ability as a slayer to sense vampires and other demons, but there is a lot that suggests she's actually quite good at it. Whether you think she's good with it or not, she most definitely does have the ability to keep track of other peoples positions relaitive to her with a great deal of accuracy while blindfolded. Unless she spent a great deal of time training while blindfolded, I would suggest that the explanation for this is preternatural.

[Vampmaster]

I still don't see where the 'two beings in one' construction of vampire metaphysics is coming from. The demon is given a soul, a conscience in Buffy terms, it is not given a possession by the former occupant.

My other major problem with the idea that the Angel or Darla contribute any genetic material is that... they're dead. Not sure they can contribute in that regard. I mean, if they could, the whole vampire birth thing wouldn't be unlikely or rare in the first place, would it?

Hmm you see thats the thing that makes Connor so birth difficult to explore regardless of how it came about. As previously stated it could possibly be that he has the genetics from the unnamed whore and Liam. Also as I said previously perhaps he was made in a similar way to Dawn with a higher being instead of monks choosing which attributes in his appearance and personality he would recieve and what supernatural gifts he would be given.

What about where he said that she had to be highly attuned to her environment and home in on the demons? There was nothing to indicate that it was a one time only deal.

Yes thats true but the way I see it a slayer with enough training is supposed to always be always highly atuned to her environment. A slayer is as Buffy herself begins to understand in Buffy vs Dracula also partially a hunter. From what I can tell hunters will always have themselves to a certain extent tuned into their environent so that they can hunt through smell, hearing etc.

According to this, Buffy would have been the first slayer to live through her Cruciamentum. Strangely enough, the Cruciamentum is takes place when a slayer turns eighteen and the average life expectancy is twenty.

In regards to the cruciamentum I would have to agree that Buffy can not be the only slayer to have survived it. From the way that Quentin Travers talks in Helpless we are given the impression that the Cruciamentum is something, which has a certain rate of survivors with only the best of the slayers surviving. Do you really think that Travers or any of the other council members would even consider Buffy's survival possible as they obviously did if it hadn't happened in the past?

Whilst I agree with the idea that Buffy can sense vampires, I must say I didn't get the impression this is what Buffy meant during this scene. I think the 'bad guy vibe' was more a reference to Buffy's shock that the Mayor was a black hat because of how successfully he managed to portray such a good wholesome guy. Faith replies to Buffy talking about people not showing their true face which indicates she didn't think Buffy was talking about the vibe in the mythic slayer sense either, but just more in the general sense.

I agree completely with that statement Vampmogs and probably would have given a similar answer if you hadn't beat me to it :lol:


I wouldn't say that Buffy is unabled to do it. If Giles says Slayers can do this I believe him, however I think Buffy's used other methods as well.

I can't speak for everyone, but when I say I don't see Buffy fully developing the abilities that Giles describes in WTTH. I mean Buffy never fully developed them not that its impossible for slayers to do so. We have seen in the show that the abilities that a slayer has are varied at times. For example we know that Buffy has the prophetic dreams of the slayer, but with the exception of her shared dreams with Buffy we have never been given any indication that Faith can do the same.

As for the matter of vampires and souls. The way I see it is this when a human dies they die what rises is simply a demon reanimating their body with their memories and knowledge of how they felt to their loved ones. When a vampire is souled they are given human consciousness which can be used to keep the inner urges of the demon at bay. Whether the consciousness is that of the human who possessed the body. I am unsure about for example if Spike was given back Williams soul why didn't he go back to being the weak little poet he was if the demon is completely blocked off. Same with Angel why didn't he turn into Liam the drunk layabout who ashamed his father?

Also a new topic for discussion. Why does Connor feelings towards Darla seem so varied compared to that of Angelus? With Angelus Connor seems to depises both him and Angel for the longest time and yet with Darla he seems to care about her and miss her. Surely Holtz would have raised him with the same attitude towards Darla that he has for Angelus. Meaning that he would have been glad that she was dead...

[Nina]

Also a new topic for discussion. Why does Connor feelings towards Darla seem so varied compared to that of Angelus? With Angelus Connor seems to depises both him and Angel for the longest time and yet with Darla he seems to care about her and miss her. Surely Holtz would have raised him with the same attitude towards Darla that he has for Angelus. Meaning that he would have been glad that she was dead...

I don't think he really cares as much about Darla as you just stated. He never really spend time talking or thinking about her on screen. The only time he saw her, she was some kind of white gost who was a good person. If that is all you know or saw about your mother, I don't think you can hate her. Connor did saw Angelus and Angel's fangs. Angel always wears black clothes and Darla was dressed in a white dress. I think that makes a difference in his head. He never saw the evil Darla, he only saw a woman who you want to have as a mother.

Also, I think that the fact that he doesn't care that much about Darla is because Holtz probably never talked that much about her. He raised Connor to kill Angel. Holtz learned Connor to hate his father, but didn't bother to learn Connor to hate his mother because she was already dead.

[kana]

Also a new topic for discussion. Why does Connor feelings towards Darla seem so varied compared to that of Angelus? With Angelus Connor seems to depises both him and Angel for the longest time and yet with Darla he seems to care about her and miss her. Surely Holtz would have raised him with the same attitude towards Darla that he has for Angelus. Meaning that he would have been glad that she was dead...

Well this is alot more complicated than people think because Connor's relationship with Angel was far more complex. For one thing he didn't simply dispise Angel although he was ready to. Connor initial feelings were mainly the fear of betraying Holtz or that he may actually be the monster he was raised to hate. When he fights along side Angel he finds a very different person to the one he expected. He sees himself in him. A supernaturally strong warrior for good. He couldn't help but have fun with him which is why Holtz had to take his revenge and try and turn them against each other so that even if he did embrace Angel, it wouldn't be that easy.

Angelus without the soul was everything he was raised to hate. He saw this first hand. He tried to convince himself that Angelus is the real persona so he wouldn't feel guilt for killing a father who obviously loved him, therefore ending his inner conflict.

Darla evidently sacrificed herself to save Connor. But in actual fact he did reject Darla for Jasmine. In Home he seemed to want both Angel and Darla to love him. He lamented at the idea that his parents might not be able to love him. I'd hope that at least adjustedConnor would understand the truth that his parents loved him, all of them including Holtz.

[stormwreath]

My assumption is that Slayers have a kind of generalised, supernatural sixth sense that alerts them to the presence of threats or danger. They can use it to identify vampires in a crowd, as Buffy frequently does at the Bronze... but it's also what enabled Buffy to catch the crossbow bolt that's fired at Cassie's head in 'Help'. Or, for that matter, how she was able to hit Giles with the dodgeball when he'd blindfolded her. Or how she knew that her roommate Kathy in college was evil. Or how she knew that Angel was following her and set a trap for him in 'WttH'.

She senses something is wrong, and reacts to it. However, to do it successfully she has to learn to trust her instincts; and sometimes she's wrong, or second-guesses herself, or whatever. It's not 100% reliable.

[ThePoet's<3]

Well, now I would say Connor was human w/demon powers but - where is the human part?? Are vampires human? Or just a human shell inhabited by a demon? If that is so than he would be more of a vampire hybrid to me.

And the Slayers have always been stronger than vampires. Angel tells Buffy that when she visits LA and he hits her.

From Sanctuary:
Angel: "You think I wanted this to happen?
Buffy: "You hit me."
Angel: "Not to go all schoolyard on you, but you hit me first. In case you've forgotten - you're a little bit stronger than I am."

What I want to know... Could it happen again...??? Human w/soul + Vampire w/soul = ???