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bespangled
08-05-18, 06:46 AM
I am going to start this with the dialogue that changes the entire concept of the B-verse:

ANGEL
Ah, it doesn't make sense. Cordy was made a higher being because she proved herself to the Powers by bearing their visions. This thing couldn't have—

WESLEY
Unless it maneuvered her to inherit the visions in the first place.

SKIP
Uh, oh. Better step on it. The rubes are catching up.

ANGEL
It wasn't just her ascension. Everything that's happened to Cordy in the past few years—all of it—was planned.

SKIP
You really think it stops with her, amigo? You have any concept of how many lines have to intersect in order for a thing like this to play out? How many events have to be nudged in just the right direction? (looks at Lorne) Leaving Pylea. (looks at Gunn) Your sister. (looks at Fred) Opening the wrong book. (looks at Wesley) Sleeping with the enemy. (beat) Gosh, (chuckles) I love a story with scope.

GUNN
No way. We make our own choices.

SKIP
Yeah, sure. Cheese sandwich here, uh, when to floss. But the big stuff, like two vampires squeezing out a kid?


First off - I love the dialogue and it sounds like Spike. The two are connected.;)

Some fans unpack this dialogue to mean that Jasmine was the reason Darla turned Angelus since she had to be the mother of Connor - or even further back to the turning of the Master. It could be taken back to the creation of the first vampire.

Personally, I believe Skip was full of crap. He was Jasmine's minion, and he only knew what Jasmine told him. Jasmine did not seem to be the shy quiet type who disliked adoration. Of course she's gonna try to make herself look good.

So when would you start the time clock? And how much do you trust the messenger?

Stoney
08-05-18, 11:59 AM
It has been a while since I watched this and I'm only on S3 of my current AtS rewatch, so I'll be interested to see what people think about this one so that I can then consider it when I get to the whole Skip-reveal. :nod:

My initial feelings are that the problem with seeing things that controlled is how much is being worked in to reach their end goal. And are they really claiming that no unexpected events occurred along the way that took the situation out of their control. Was Angel's curse part of their whole plan so that he could dust Darla for her to be resurrected and then his despair at the negativity in humans could lead him to sleep with her despite being souled? Really? Or was it all more recent and Doyle's death the trigger, or was his choice to sacrifice himself being included? Hmmm. It just seems ridiculous to suggest the level of control that would be required at so many points and over so many lives as he is suggesting happened were needed to have led it inexorably to this. How could they have even vaguely known that and surely there would be a less complicated way of going about it. :lol: I think they could have been looking for opportunities and could have manipulated people somewhat for sure, but the idea of playing puppet masters so completely with so many and that all having been very much planned, well it just seems far-fetched to me. Surely it's more likely that what he is saying is blind belief himself or very much about affecting the people he is talking to in the here and now. Destroying their sense of being able to fight against what has been put in motion. The whole ethos of the show, that what matters is what you do, is upended if this was true and what you choose in truth matters so very little. So nah, I don't buy it. :biggrin1:

Fool for Buffy
08-05-18, 01:34 PM
I don't think the whole she-was-responsible-for-everything theory is legit. Besides the fact that it takes away self control, there were too many risks that would have made it impossible to know things would work out. (Connor going to Quortoth, Cordelia being on the brink of death from visions to name a couple) I think Skip was being fed things to say but didn't know what he was talking about. Also, why would Skip encourage Cordy to stay with her other life in Birthday if she was supposed to be the mother? Things do not add up.