PDA

View Full Version : Vampire Re-Integration in Season 8



KingofCretins
29-12-07, 05:23 PM
Pretend for a moment that "After the Fall" all works out with everyone back in their own dimension. Also, ignore (please, PLEASE) any discussion of a 'shipping nature.

Do you think Spike and/or Angel could integrate into Buffy's organization? If so, how? Do you think they'd fit in at the BHC, or elsewhere? What role do you think either of them might fill? How do you think other characters would interact with them?

sueworld
29-12-07, 05:33 PM
Short answer is no, not really. I can't see either of them wanting that type of 'unlifestyle' I'm afraid. They've come too far, and each become their own men now.

It would only end in 'tears before bedtime' for all concerned really. :roll:

*ETA* I could see him quite happily continuing on working with Angel and co, but not with Buffy and her bunch as things are now. To much water has gone under the bridge for that to happen easily.

Dorian's Kitten
29-12-07, 05:38 PM
I don't think that Angel can integrate into Buffy's organization. Not because I don't want them together but because he is too independent. Even when he was in Sunnydale he was always very separate from the Scoobies. I think he needs to lead his own thing. I think they could get to a place where their groups cooperate and share info, but I don't see him moving into the BHC.

Spike, on the other hand, blended with the Scoobies a bit more. He was never really one of them, but he came closer. I do think it would be possible for him. I think that there would be challenges, there is a lot of history to deal with and just his being a vamp would be odd for the newbies. But that said, he did sacrifice himself sealing the hellmouth in Sunnydale. There were a lot of girls there who will probably greet him somewhat warmly, they along with Buffy could set the tone. That and lets not forget that he can be charming when he wants to be. Oh and he's a hot guy and they are a castle full of girls with almost no men around.
In the Spuffy thread I suggested that I see him taking on a role helping the newbies train. He would certainly know a lot of good tips to share and he seemed well suited to the task in potential. Also he would be an extra fighter-one who can withstand extreme elements and survive situations that even a slayer couldn't. He has knowledge of demon language(s) and habits-I'm sure he could remain useful despite the onslaught of new super-powered fighters. I feel like the original Scoobies will warm to him; they can't deny that he has earned his second chance. So maybe not easy but Spike tends to make the best of things-he could do it.

Nina
29-12-07, 06:01 PM
I also think that Angel wouldn't fit in. He can't go back to being a side-kick. Angel became an alpha-male, he can't be not the leader. In season 2/3 of Ats, when Wesley is the leader ... Angel takes the lead. And I think that in season 1 of Ats, in Sanctuary, there is shown that Angel and Buffy have other idea's and they became equals. When Buffy hitted Angel in his face, I knew that they couldn't go back to the relation they had in BtVS.
Besides, he fights another fight, he has his own destiny which is (maybe) more important as Buffy's destiny. Angel is chosen by gods to fight for them, he has to do that. And Angel has people to take care of.

Spike is another story, he is still the side-kick. He can be a side-kick of any person. So he can come back without any 'who-is-the-leader' problems. And if you think about the fact that he loves Buffy and his relation with Angel is not that great, I think he could go back. But it's better for him as he doesn't go back, he had more growth in season 5 of Ats as in season 7 of BtVS. On the other side, Buffy is for him a reason to fight the good fight, he still can't find enough motivation to do that without her.

KingofCretins
29-12-07, 06:02 PM
I think one of the biggest obstacles to either of them being at the BHC is the fact that Buffy really is *in charge* now. Every indication we've gotten about Buffy is that the Slayers that chose to join her are very loyal and kind of in awe of her, and it simply wouldn't do for there to be anyone around who undercuts her authority on anything that looks like business. I think that'd be a bigger problem for Angel, but still a problem for both.

There are two communities in the BHC -- one of the Scoobies between themselves, and one between them and the Slayers. It's that second one that I find most problematic. For instance, I think it's pretty clear that Xander, and to some extent Willow (because she's only returned) speak as Buffy when she is not around, as far as the rest of the organization is concerned. Would Angel or Spike find that tolerable? Both the idea that either of those two would be 'over' them, or that they would not have the same kind of authority over the Slayers?

Dorian's Kitten
29-12-07, 06:29 PM
I think one of the biggest obstacles to either of them being at the BHC is the fact that Buffy really is *in charge* now. Every indication we've gotten about Buffy is that the Slayers that chose to join her are very loyal and kind of in awe of her, and it simply wouldn't do for there to be anyone around who undercuts her authority on anything that looks like business. I think that'd be a bigger problem for Angel, but still a problem for both.

There are two communities in the BHC -- one of the Scoobies between themselves, and one between them and the Slayers. It's that second one that I find most problematic. For instance, I think it's pretty clear that Xander, and to some extent Willow (because she's only returned) speak as Buffy when she is not around, as far as the rest of the organization is concerned. Would Angel or Spike find that tolerable? Both the idea that either of those two would be 'over' them, or that they would not have the same kind of authority over the Slayers?

I think Spike would join as part of that same tier. And while I think he and Xander would have some trouble adjudging to each other I think they would and would simply have different areas of authority. I actually think that Willow would give orders diplomatically enough that Spike would not have any issues with her. She is really powerful; he knows and respects that. Also during season seven we see that Willow seems to have respect for him as well. When she tries to explain where Buffy went (after Dawn kicks her out) she seems quite concerned about how he'll take it. It can't be that she is really worried for their safety-again she is way powerful, so she must think his opinion matters.

patxshand
29-12-07, 06:40 PM
Shippers would disagree (holy crap would they), but I think it would be horrible if either Angel or Spike went back to BtVS characters. Especially Angel, as his returning would (1) mean the end of AtS and (2) knock him from 'lead' to 'supporting.' Spike's return to being a Buffy character would be more acceptable as he has more years on BtVS than AtS, but again I feel he would get more of the attention he deserves in AtS. The Scoobs are the main characters of BtVS. Angel, Spike, Wes, and Illyria are the main characters of Angel (seeing as Gunn's current situation will surely prevent him from staying around for the longrun).

Also, these two characters have come too far to *accept* not being THE major player. Neither of them would listen to what Buffy or moreover Xander have to say about missions, and they wouldn't like a thousand slayer lasses backing them up.

Heather
29-12-07, 06:50 PM
I, personally, don't want to see either of them in the Buffy comics outside of a story-arc. Part of me is concerned that they'd detract from the storyline, spending a lot of time on filling the gaps between Season 8 and "After the Fall." Most of this could really be done in a story-arc much like "No Future For You," but keeping either Angel or Spike onboard would most likely lead to it getting stretched out over a longer span just to give the characters something to do.

But the major reason behind why I don't want Spike or Angel back is simply because I honestly feel that their storylines with "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" are done - especially Angel, who's had a highly successful run as the star of his own spinoff. Though Spike was always the sidekick, like some have already mentioned, he will only remain the sidekick in the comics which is nothing new and, personally, I don't find that interesting at all. The two of them are done and don't really fit in anywhere with season 8, in my honest opinion.

So, no: I don't want either back as regular characters in these comics. Maybe recurring, but I truthfully want nothing more than a story-arc with the two of them to fill the void between "After the Fall" and season 8.

KingofCretins
29-12-07, 06:59 PM
I think Spike would join as part of that same tier. And while I think he and Xander would have some trouble adjudging to each other I think they would and would simply have different areas of authority. I actually think that Willow would give orders diplomatically enough that Spike would not have any issues with her. She is really powerful; he knows and respects that. Also during season seven we see that Willow seems to have respect for him as well. When she tries to explain where Buffy went (after Dawn kicks her out) she seems quite concerned about how he'll take it. It can't be that she is really worried for their safety-again she is way powerful, so she must think his opinion matters.

I don't think Spike could just walk in the door and be on that tier, simply because being on that tier isn't just about what Buffy says, it's about what everyone on that tier would say, and I don't think either Xander or Willow would just open up right away. He'd be an indian before he'd be a chief.


Also, these two characters have come too far to *accept* not being THE major player. Neither of them would listen to what Buffy or moreover Xander have to say about missions, and they wouldn't like a thousand slayer lasses backing them up.

I tend to agree, particularly Angel. Spike might actually do better as a subordinate, but Angel couldn't deal with it, especially if it meant taking orders from Xander. Spike at least had to form the habit of showing Xander at least some degree of respect due to the stretch of years during which Xander could have killed him just because he felt like it. And he'd defer to Willow because of power.

Maggie
29-12-07, 11:11 PM
I agree that Angel could never fit in. Though the not-fitting-in could be an interesting story in its own right. But it's hard to imagine why he'd want to stick around long enough *to* fit in -- absent a strong shipping line.

Spike is different. He's never had problems accepting the authority of others. The question is whether the original Scoobies have rebonded in a way that would keep Spike outside the inner circle (whereas before he was Buffy's alternate inner circle). The issue of the previously competing inner circles coming together could be interesting. And it doesn't require a strong shipping line, though it would be a bit tricky to navigate around it. Whether I'd want that or not is difficult to say. Some of my favorite fics have Spike bonding with the other Scoobies. It answers some longing to see the 'outsider' finally welcomed in. And him coming into the circle really would make Buffy's life more 'whole' than it was even in season 7. OTOH, it's hard to imagine Spike in that world and having it not still be all about Buffy for him. And I'm very adament about not wanting an all-about-Buffy Spike in a Buffy world where Buffy is not at least a-lot-about-Spike. So on that score, I'd rather see him continue to move on apart from the Buffy world.

My worst nightmare would be Spike in a second-tier circle below the circle of original Scoobies. His impact on Buffy's life is at least equal to theirs, and the reinforcement of outsider-insider stuff would really be off-putting. Given the whole of his journey with Buffy, his saving of Xander's second eye, and his big sacrifice to save the world, he belongs in the inner circle. Period.

KingofCretins
30-12-07, 12:11 AM
Spike is different. He's never had problems accepting the authority of others. The question is whether the original Scoobies have rebonded in a way that would keep Spike outside the inner circle (whereas before he was Buffy's alternate inner circle). The issue of the previously competing inner circles coming together could be interesting. And it doesn't require a strong shipping line, though it would be a bit tricky to navigate around it. Whether I'd want that or not is difficult to say. Some of my favorite fics have Spike bonding with the other Scoobies. It answers some longing to see the 'outsider' finally welcomed in. And him coming into the circle really would make Buffy's life more 'whole' than it was even in season 7. OTOH, it's hard to imagine Spike in that world and having it not still be all about Buffy for him. And I'm very adament about not wanting an all-about-Buffy Spike in a Buffy world where Buffy is not at least a-lot-about-Spike. So on that score, I'd rather see him continue to move on apart from the Buffy world.

I think Spike can play ball within an authority structure -- the trickier part would be his recognition of what is and isn't authority. I think Season 8 should spend more time on the leadership dynamics in general. So far, I get the impression that the Slayers follow Buffy and Xander because they've *been there*; the authority comes from continuity and respect for experience. With Willow, though, I'm assuming that so far her authority is rooted strictly in power, and supported by her connection to Buffy and Xander. In 8.03, everyone seems a little afraid of her when she's giving orders about the true love's kiss, and Renee seems a little wary of her in 8.07, as well.

With Spike, the question is two-fold... what is his authority, but also, where does that authority come from? The first question is less important -- I don't see Spike taking shifts in their command center overseeing operations and all, I think he'd probably be pretty much strictly fight training at the BHC or a leader on specific missions. Not someone the Slayers answer to by default.

The second question is... where does his authority come from? He had authority from power, being a vampire, and from reputation, being a vampire with a soul. He has authority through association with Buffy, but that is very clouded because A) we don't know what Buffy's relationship with him would be (a romance may or may not be helpful in making him part of the leadership to the Slayers), and B) we don't know how Xander and Willow would react to him, either. I think both could accept him on their level of authority, but people pick up on the dynamics between the people over them. Yes, he saved Xander's life, and the world, but nobody has had time to really process those feelings about him in that respect since he wasn't there.

Another problem in terms of his sense of legitimate authority is that these are Slayers. As we've seen with Dana... many of them may *know him*, from their dreams, from Slayer memories. They may be predisposed to distrust him or just to hate him, like Wood did. The whole vampire with a soul thing is pretty unimpressive, morally, to those who haven't been around it as long as the Scoobies have (Wood, Holtz, Dana, etc). Worst case scenario is that having him around actually undermines Buffy for this reason.

sueworld
30-12-07, 12:13 AM
My worst nightmare would be Spike in a second-tier circle below the circle of original Scoobies. His impact on Buffy's life is at least equal to theirs, and the reinforcement of outsider-insider stuff would really be off-putting. Given the whole of his journey with Buffy, his saving of Xander's second eye, and his big sacrifice to save the world, he belongs in the inner circle. Period.
Quote

Oh god ditto!

Spike slowly made his way up the 'ranks' as a character on Buffy to be one of the lead characters, where others like it or not, and to have him come back and be crammed back into his old earlier role wouldn't really work.

Every character as well as Spike have more then since moved on.

patxshand
30-12-07, 02:21 AM
I'd be happiest with this...

Buffy the Vampire Slayer as an ongoing comic, staring...
...Buffy
...Xander
...Willow
...Dawn
...Andrew
...Oz
...Satsu and Leah

Angel as an ongoing comic, staring...
...Angel
...Wesley
...Illyria
...Gwen
...Connor
...Eve (?) maybe

Spike as an ongoing comic, staring...
...Spike
...Lorne
...Betta George
...Beck
...Tock
...Biv
...and sometimes appearances from Marv the wolfman or that ram-looking lady from Asylum

Faith the Vampire Slayer as an ongoing comic, staring...
...Faith
...Giles
...Robin Wood

However, I'd like Spike to guest star in Angel OFTEN. Same with Giles in BtVS.

Kold
30-12-07, 05:37 AM
That's a lot of comic books my friend. As long as they could get good creative teams for each one, that'd be good to free up each comic to focus with clarity on the main storylines. But I'm not sure about separating Faith from Buffy exclusively... I certainly think the stories that come from the two characters together are brilliant, like in No Future For You. However, after an event like No Future For You I doubt they'll be interacting much, so... as long as the two comics were to cross over.

As to the main topic, I don't think that either vampire would work particularly well in the Buffy comic. They'd take too much focus away from Buffy, Willow, Xander and Dawn. In terms of fitting in to the organisation, KoC is right that having them around might undermine Buffy's power. To me Buffy tends to be at her best when she's alone and determined. She needs someone to support her with simplicity, which neither of them did, and since they're technically her exes, I think complications would arise.

Koos
30-12-07, 10:52 AM
There are two communities in the BHC -- one of the Scoobies between themselves, and one between them and the Slayers. It's that second one that I find most problematic. For instance, I think it's pretty clear that Xander, and to some extent Willow (because she's only returned) speak as Buffy when she is not around, as far as the rest of the organization is concerned. Would Angel or Spike find that tolerable? Both the idea that either of those two would be 'over' them, or that they would not have the same kind of authority over the Slayers?

Not really a problem for Spike, but I don't see what Spike could uniquely contribute in a continuing way. They have everything already.

I do think there are many more commmunites, KoC. The three top Slayers seems to be close friends, for example.

ThePoet's<3
31-12-07, 05:52 AM
I'd be happiest with this...

Buffy the Vampire Slayer as an ongoing comic, staring...
...Buffy
...Xander
...Willow
...Dawn
...Andrew
...Oz
...Satsu and Leah

Angel as an ongoing comic, staring...
...Angel
...Wesley
...Gwen
...Connor
...Eve (?) maybe

Spike as an ongoing comic, staring...
...Spike
...Lorne
...Illyria
...Betta George
...Beck
...Tock
...Biv
...and sometimes appearances from Marv the wolfman or that ram-looking lady from Asylum

Faith the Vampire Slayer as an ongoing comic, staring...
...Faith
...Giles
...Robin Wood

However, I'd like Spike to guest star in Angel OFTEN. Same with Giles in BtVS.


I agree with Pat's lineup pretty much except I would trade Illyria to be on Spike's team and not Angel. She has more of a rapport with Spike.

I don't Angel to join Buffy. I wouldn't mind Spike joining Buffy - it was a good partnership (shipping aside) when they fought together. But Angel can no longer be a "partner" to anyone.

At MacCastle I could see Spike training and leading a group of Slayers on missions. Certainly he would be more capable than Andrew!

BAF
31-12-07, 10:37 PM
At this point I would only want the occasional guest appearence by the vamps in the Buffy comics or vice versa and not until After The Fall wraps.

Unless he had his own gang,I think Spike fits much better in Angel's group over Buffy's and would not want him transported back to the Buffy cast.

I don't think either Angel or Spike belong in Buffy's world in a regular way right now.Maybe one day when that final battle hinted in Fray comes along but not at this time.

.