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bespangled
11-04-18, 11:27 AM
I expect plenty more blowback when we get to six because, full disclosure, I find Spike and Buffy EVEN more toxic. But bring it on friends! Let’s do it! I am an equal opportunity critic. No one gets a free pass.

In fact, I think all this Tumblr fun has made today…the ideal day to come out. To finally admit my ship and make it official. Everyone, when it comes to Bangel or Spuffy I am a #bookiedough shipper.

Bookie dough sounds gross though. Cookiebough? Team Cookie Dough?

I love things that both relationships brought to the show. Angelus is one of my favorite big bads and Angel’s turn in Season 2 was a BEAUTIFUL synergistic metaphor. Spike is pure charisma, a ton of fun to watch, and I MASSIVELY appreciate the show’s willingness to portray a self-destructive relationship unflinchingly - both how it is bad for us as individuals along with the seductive intoxicating quality it comes with.

“I’d rather hurt than feel nothing.”

But the show gives extensive thematic reasons why NEITHER are supposed to be romanticized. Both (haven’t read the comics) are treated thematically as impediments to self-actualization, which is Buffy learning to love and embrace herself.

If you follow me, you know, I’m not trying to deny you your loves or to dis-empower your perspective. Whenever I’ve panned an episode and someone has said to me, “But I love this episode,” my response has always been, “Between the two of us, you are the more fortunate.” Loving something is a far richer experience than tearing something down.

The shows changed my life, and I write about them to understand that experience for myself as well as to share in that experience with other people. But nothing I’ve published would be worth watching if I substituted my honesty for the sake of diplomacy and avoiding offense.

-Ian

He definitely is anti-Spuffy from this.

HardlyThere
11-04-18, 11:57 AM
So? He's just reviewer #23004990203 posting thoughts on the series.

MikeB
11-04-18, 02:21 PM
Ian of The Passion of the Nerd I MASSIVELY appreciate the show’s willingness to portray a self-destructive relationship [i.e. Buffy/Spike] unflinchingly - both how it is bad for us as individuals along with the seductive intoxicating quality it comes with.

“I’d rather hurt than feel nothing.” Buffy's relationship with Spike in BtVS S6 is the reason she didn't kill herself. In "Afterlife" (B 6.03), Spike became very disillusioned regarding his relationship with the Willow Group (because they didn't tell him about their Buffy resurrection plan).

If Buffy/Spike didn't happen, Spike may have simply left Sunnydale and gone back to Drusilla.

Spike saves Buffy's life in "Once More With Feeling" (B 6.07) and was saving her emotionally before that.

While it could have been nicer and more loving, BtVS S6 Buffy/Spike wasn't "self-destructive".

Arguably Buffy/Angel in BtVS S1-S3 was more self-destructive for Buffy.


But the show gives extensive thematic reasons why NEITHER are supposed to be romanticized. Both (haven’t read the comics) are treated thematically as impediments to self-actualization, which is Buffy learning to love and embrace herself. Um, no. Buffy/Angel is HEAVILY romanticized to the point that Buffy remembers losing her virginity to Angel as essentially an emotional experience.

Angel dusted Darla for Buffy.

Spike literally got his soul back for Buffy.

Buffy is essentially Spike's mother figure in BtVS S7.

Buffy's the reason Angel becomes "a champion".

Buffy is the reason Spike becomes "a hero".

Angel is the ultimate high school boyfriend for Buffy.

Spike is the ultimate lover, confidant, best friend, mentor, partner, etc. for Buffy.

Etc.

While Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike could have been more romantic, it's utter nonsense that both aren't romanticized.


Finally, I'm not sure it's wise to try to make a business reviewing the Buffyverse by offending the large majority of the Buffyverse fanbase. Maybe Ian should also say he prefers Willow/Oz over Willow/Tara. Just do the reviews and have some analysis. Viewers will find out soon enough what you support.

vampmogs
11-04-18, 02:22 PM
He said that he loves things that both relationships brought to the show and that he "MASSIVELY" appreciates what, from his perspective, the show was exploring with Buffy/Spike. Your take on that may be different than mine but, IMO, that doesn't make him "anti-Spuffy" at all - he said he appreciated it.

What's the story behind him posting this by the way? Please don't tell me he was hounded by shippers or something :rolleyes:

GoSpuffy
11-04-18, 02:46 PM
I've heard he's being massively hounded By bangel shippers on twitter. I haven't actually seen it myself so can't confirm.

flow
11-04-18, 02:51 PM
I don`t watch his Angel Reviews, but he seems to have pissed off some Angel fans. I don`t know, which episode-review or what remark caused that. If someone has a clue, please let me know.

He is NOT anti-Spuffy. He just isn`t a Spuffy. That is not the same. I absolutely adore his reviews. I might not always agree with him, but I don`t find that necessary. Every review shows his great resprect and love for the show and he treats each and every character with the same respect. He is a non-shipper. That`s okay. The show wasn`t really about relationships. They are just a bonus.

flow

Silver1
11-04-18, 03:05 PM
Yeah, he's not invested in either ship, and sees them both as being destructive but in different ways, (maybe more with Spike then Angel). I do disagree with a few of his views bit on the whole I very much appreciate his take on the show.

You should watch his live feeds (which go on for hours unannounced before hand sadly) where he talks at length about this kind of thing and you get to see his point of view more.

The fans on Tumblr are just nuts. :roll:

TriBel
11-04-18, 03:13 PM
What's the story behind him posting this by the way? Please don't tell me he was hounded by shippers or something

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. ;) I don't use tumblr or Twitter but, as far as I know he was hounded by shippers on both. Judging from the support he received (I think Lani Diane Rich was one), it might have been Bangels but I'm happy to be corrected.

@bespangled - I didn't read it as particularly "anti-spuffy". I think Ian's seems a "nice man" and I'm sorry he was abused by less than nice people. I just wish people would grow up!

@ MikeB
BtVS S6 Buffy/Spike wasn't "self-destructive" I'd argue it was but I'd also argue that the "selves" implied had to be razed to the ground so new concepts of self could be constructed. :)

vampmogs
11-04-18, 03:18 PM
It sounds like he must've called Buffy/Angel "toxic" or something because at the start of his post he says that he considers Buffy/Spike even more toxic, which implies that he must've said something about Buffy/Angel that triggered this whole thing. I can't fathom how he could have offended them so much considering how many of his past videos have included really touching Buffy/Angel moments. He obviously doesn't hate them, and it wouldn't matter even if he did.

Silver1
11-04-18, 03:27 PM
This is what I hate about Tumblr. Folks get hysterical at the drop of a hat. Not that the fandom needs much encouragement at the best of times of course. :lol:

betta
11-04-18, 04:10 PM
https://78.media.tumblr.com/63201dbc1569a712983abc02c63fe782/tumblr_p6zol5sLnJ1u102ljo1_1280.png (http://thepassionofthenerd.tumblr.com/post/172805228194/just-sayingfrom-a-certain-perspective)

In the tags, he says "THISPOSTISNOTINTENDEDTOBETAKENSERIOUSLY"...

Silver1
11-04-18, 04:52 PM
Hilarious! :roll:

Skippcomet
11-04-18, 07:07 PM
SMG once answered a "Angel or Spike?" question on Reddit with "Angel," and Spike fans, IIRC, asked her the question again, implying rather clearly that she should rethink her answer to something more to their preference, but she didn't. If the more....zealous....shippers, of any ship, are going to over-react when SMG makes a clear preference known, *of course* they're going to overreact to a 'mere' reviewer who they think is dissing their ship.

And seriously? Of what value is a review, or essay, meta, etc., if the person doing it is more worried about "not pissing off the majority" than in being honest about their observations and opinions? Anybody who's so thin-skinned and fragile about how somebody out there better not "go against" what they think is "the majority" is a coward and a bully.

Rebcake
11-04-18, 10:15 PM
https://78.media.tumblr.com/63201dbc1569a712983abc02c63fe782/tumblr_p6zol5sLnJ1u102ljo1_1280.png (http://thepassionofthenerd.tumblr.com/post/172805228194/just-sayingfrom-a-certain-perspective)

In the tags, he says "THISPOSTISNOTINTENDEDTOBETAKENSERIOUSLY"...

Yup. He posted this on Tumblr, and tagged it "bangel". You could say there was some pushback. He was informed that this type of post should be tagged "anti-bangel", which is fair.

He's still got a point, though. Metaphor: it's there for a reason.

bespangled
11-04-18, 11:53 PM
This is what I hate about Tumblr. Folks get hysterical at the drop of a hat. Not that the fandom needs much encouragement at the best of times of course. :lol:

The weird thing is I couldn't fin any tumblr reaction to him at all - and I looked. I hve more Spuffy contacts than I do Bangel - not sure if that means anything. But I was curious as to exactly what he was talking about.

As for being anti-spuffy at this point, well Angel is off the show. Cant's really be anti Bangel anymore

Silver1
11-04-18, 11:58 PM
I think they may have had ago at him on youtube or Twitter.

bespangled
12-04-18, 12:02 AM
https://78.media.tumblr.com/63201dbc1569a712983abc02c63fe782/tumblr_p6zol5sLnJ1u102ljo1_1280.png (http://thepassionofthenerd.tumblr.com/post/172805228194/just-sayingfrom-a-certain-perspective)

In the tags, he says "THISPOSTISNOTINTENDEDTOBETAKENSERIOUSLY"...

Oh, I did see this on his tumblr - just assumed it was a reblog of something going around. Okay - maybe he can be both anti-Bangel and anti-Spuffy. I don't recall him taking about any of this when he was doing the earlier shows. I like his take on the shows, and I will watch regardless. I don't have a dog in this race, and he is usually pretty even handed.

Priceless
12-04-18, 08:25 AM
This is probably really a dumb question, but why does he at first call himself a 'bookiedough' fan? (of course I get the reference to cookie dough, but bookie? Is he talking about the Mark Field book he bases everything on?)

I'll put money on by the time he gets to the end of S7 he thinks Buffy and Spike are wonderful together :D

TriBel
12-04-18, 08:38 AM
This is probably really a dumb question, but why does he at first call himself a 'bookiedough' fan? (of course I get the reference to cookie dough, but bookie? Is he talking about the Mark Field book he bases everything on?)

I'll put money on by the time he gets to the end of S7 he thinks Buffy and Spike are wonderful together :D

I'm not sure - my friend Google failed me. Is that what he does - base everything on the Mark Field book? Does everyone do that? I've read a multitude of references to it. It's good (I've got a copy because it was 99p on Kindle) and it's accessible but there's other material available. Does no-one read Slayage?

Priceless
12-04-18, 08:56 AM
I'm not sure - my friend Google failed me. Is that what he does - base everything on the Mark Field book? Does everyone do that? I've read a multitude of references to it. It's good (I've got a copy because it was 99p on Kindle) and it's accessible but there's other material available. Does no-one read Slayage?

I'm sure early on POTN said he was basing all his Buffy reviews on Mark Fields book. I think it's shame really that he's hamstrung himself to one text, when there is a whole world of Buffy work out there. I've not read the book.

flow
12-04-18, 09:52 AM
He ships Buffy with cookiedough. Buffy + cookiedough = bookiedough :-)

He often mentions Mark Field but his reviews are more than just a video of Mark Fields book. I actually think he his digging deeper with his Video reviews, than Mark Field does in his book.

flow

TriBel
12-04-18, 10:21 AM
He ships Buffy with cookiedough. Buffy + cookiedough = bookiedough :-)

He often mentions Mark Field but his reviews are more than just a video of Mark Fields book. I actually think he his digging deeper with his Video reviews, than Mark Field does in his book.

flow

So actually - because cookie-dough refers to Buffy herself and the process of baking refers to time and not Angel - he's not shipping her with anyone? He's just placating - as a sign that he's a very nice man? Okay...*shrugs*.

Priceless
12-04-18, 10:59 AM
He ships Buffy with cookiedough. Buffy + cookiedough = bookiedough :-)

He often mentions Mark Field but his reviews are more than just a video of Mark Fields book. I actually think he his digging deeper with his Video reviews, than Mark Field does in his book.

flow

Thank you flow, I didn't get that at all :redshy: He likes Buffy single. How sad that Buffy has to miss out on such an important part of life, something that reveals so much of her character in her interactions with her lovers. I am firmly on the side of Buffy needing a partner for the story and to show the audience aspects of Buffy we'd never otherwise see.

HardlyThere
12-04-18, 11:18 AM
Thank you flow, I didn't get that at all :redshy: He likes Buffy single. How sad that Buffy has to miss out on such an important part of life, something that reveals so much of her character in her interactions with her lovers. I am firmly on the side of Buffy needing a partner for the story and to show the audience aspects of Buffy we'd never otherwise see.

Not shipping her with Angel or Spike doesn't mean he only likes her single.

The idea of Cookie Dough doesn't mean she's going to be alone forever until she figures everything out. I'd say it means quite the opposite.

flow
12-04-18, 11:25 AM
He says, he thinks, she is better off on her own in the series. He does not say the same about Post-Chosen or the comics. I don‘t know, if he reads the Comics at all.

Maybe we could ask him, to join this board and answer our questions.:D

flow

Silver1
12-04-18, 11:28 AM
From what I remember from his live feeds, no he hasn't read the comics.

Priceless
12-04-18, 11:29 AM
Not shipping her with Angel or Spike doesn't mean he only likes her single.

The idea of Cookie Dough doesn't mean she's going to be alone forever until she figures everything out. I'd say it means quite the opposite.

Perhaps you are right. I read it that he wants Buffy to be cookie-dough, unbaked, unformed, undecided on who she is and who she wants to be with. Of course that doesn't stop her sleeping with whomever she wishes, but it does sort of stop her forming deep emotional attachments which may lead to a life long loving relationship, with men/vamps like Angel and Riley, who she believed she would be with forever.

He doesn't read the comics, so for POTN his Buffy ends as single, and he likes that. Which of course is absolutely fine, it could be argued that for a feminist show that's more than acceptable. But as a viewer and a comic reader, I want her to be in a relationship, for the reasons stated. It's no criticism of POTN, it's just stating a difference of opinion.

Silver1
12-04-18, 11:40 AM
He said in one of his live feeds he may review the season 8, but I'm betting once he's started to read them and realise how drastically different (imo f*cking insane) they are from the show he won't bother.

Priceless
12-04-18, 11:44 AM
He said in one of his live feeds he may review the season 8, but I'm betting once he's started to read them and realise how drastically different (imo f*cking insane) they are from the show he won't bother.

Lol, yeah they do take a lot of getting used to after a tv show. Season 8 does take an insane turn :D But the more I read S8 (three times now) the more I enjoy it. I think once POTN finishes reviewing Angel he'll turn to a different tv show, though I'm not sure what.

Silver1
12-04-18, 12:01 PM
One of these days I'm going to have to put a poll up on my LJ or something asking those who liked this exactly why. Why they thought it was ANYTHING like the original show and why they thought the characterisation worked for them. :lol: Because as you know I sooooo disappointed in it and thought it was so bad it was embarrassing.

HardlyThere
12-04-18, 12:45 PM
One of these days I'm going to have to put a poll up on my LJ or something asking those who liked this exactly why. Why they thought it was ANYTHING like the original show and why they thought the characterisation worked for them. :lol: Because as you know I sooooo disappointed in it and thought it was so bad it was embarrassing.

A lot gets accepted if you get what you want.

flow
12-04-18, 12:52 PM
Priceless
I read it that he wants Buffy to be cookie-dough, unbaked, unformed, undecided on who she is and who she wants to be with.

I read it completely different. I read it that he wants Buffy to have the time, to bake, to form and to decide, who she is and who she wants to be with.


flow

HardlyThere
12-04-18, 12:54 PM
Perhaps you are right. I read it that he wants Buffy to be cookie-dough, unbaked, unformed, undecided on who she is and who she wants to be with. Of course that doesn't stop her sleeping with whomever she wishes, but it does sort of stop her forming deep emotional attachments which may lead to a life long loving relationship, with men/vamps like Angel and Riley, who she believed she would be with forever.

I don't see how. If forever develops out of something, fine. If it doesn't, fine. She had given up the fatalism. That was the point of the whole speech when placed in context. The elephant in the room during that talk was Spike, who she had feelings for but was wary to get involved with because of said fatalism. She doesn't know if there is a future there, but maybe. That's the cookie dough idea. Maybe it would work with him. Maybe not. Maybe someone else. Maybe not. It doesn't mean those connections aren't worth pursuing.

vampmogs
12-04-18, 01:08 PM
Priceless

I read it completely different. I read it that he wants Buffy to have the time, to bake, to form and to decide, who she is and who she wants to be with.


flow

Yep. Which is pretty much the whole point behind her speech in Chosen. I hadn't really thought about it in these terms before but HardlyThere was right that Buffy's cookie dough speech makes up for a lot of the bullshit in S5 after Riley's departure. All that nonsensical talk between Xander and Anya about Buffy's inability to make relationships work, or Spike claiming she can't hold onto a man, or Buffy trying to change herself to appease guys like Ben, is redeemed by this moment when Buffy realises that she's a mere 22 years old and hasn't come close to figuring whoever it is she's going to turn out to be. In fact, Buffy actually has this epiphany in I Was Made to Love You but after her death and depression and consequently falling into a affair with Spike she never really got to act on it. In Chosen she's come around back to the place she was at in I Was Made to Love You right before her mum died, and then she died, and her life pretty much went to shit for a good long while. It was meant as a positive moment for the character, which it is, as she was 22 years old and should be under no expectation to settle down already, so I can't fault POTN for preferring this over shipping either vampire as her One True Love or the person she's Meant To Be With.

Silver1
12-04-18, 01:09 PM
A lot gets accepted if you get what you want.


?? Explain?

SpuffyGlitz
12-04-18, 01:18 PM
why does he at first call himself a 'bookiedough' fan? (of course I get the reference to cookie dough, but bookie? Is he talking about the Mark Field book he bases everything on?)

I just assumed that meant he "ships" her with just the cookie theory, as in, with no one in particular as she's evolving, or anyone she wants along the way. So his "ship" is "bookiedough" -- because Buffy starts with the letter 'b' and then cookie dough is combined. Bookiedough. Like Spuffy or Briley - it's his invented ship name for no ship. Or maybe there's a smarter reason but that's just how I saw it..:noidea: :p

EDIT: I see others have already mentioned similar things..woops!

HardlyThere
12-04-18, 01:35 PM
?? Explain?

Any particular group will take a pound of bad if it doesn't affect them for an ounce of good that does. If they decided to write Spike like crap, you'd see the Spuke people to come rolling back in celebrating whoever was writing it. It doesn't matter if the writing is terrible, they'd search through the cracks and find support for it because it supports their view. Substitute any character and any group, it's all the same.

Silver1
12-04-18, 01:38 PM
And to cut a long story short that has relevance how? Colour me thick but I don't get it? :D

HardlyThere
12-04-18, 01:56 PM
You were around for the Allie years. What's changed then to now?


Yep. Which is pretty much the whole point behind her speech in Chosen. I hadn't really thought about it in these terms before but HardlyThere was right that Buffy's cookie dough speech makes up for a lot of the bullshit in S5 after Riley's departure. All that nonsensical talk between Xander and Anya about Buffy's inability to make relationships work, or Spike claiming she can't hold onto a man, or Buffy trying to change herself to appease guys like Ben, is redeemed by this moment when Buffy realises that she's a mere 22 years old and hasn't come close to figuring whoever it is she's going to turn out to be. In fact, Buffy actually has this epiphany in I Was Made to Love You but after her death and depression and consequently falling into a affair with Spike she never really got to act on it. In Chosen she's come around back to the place she was at in I Was Made to Love You right before her mum died, and then she died, and her life pretty much went to shit for a good long while. It was meant as a positive moment for the character, which it is, as she was 22 years old and should be under no expectation to settle down already, so I can't fault POTN for preferring this over shipping either vampire as her One True Love or the person she's Meant To Be With.

I disagree about IWMTLY. It's similar wording, but differing intent. In that episode, I think it's where the walls go up that don't come down until S7. In that ep, she's still blaming herself for Riley. She says it wasn't fair he never gave her a chance to fix things, the things of course being herself. She subsequently cancels her date with Ben. It's in contrast to Chosen, where she stops blaming herself and is opening up.

Priceless
12-04-18, 02:00 PM
Really surprised how many of you are on the bookie-dough wagon. Personally I thought it was bland and pandering on the show and feel it's even more bland and pandering when anyone backs it in real life.

I admit I have an axe to grind, I'm a massive Spuffy fan. To me Buffy loved Spike in S6 and could finally admit it in S7. I can't help but feel POTN is not wanting to alienate his public. As I say, wait till S7, he'll be a Spuffy fan by the end of the show, bugger the cookie dough :p

Silver1
12-04-18, 02:09 PM
Call this sacrilege, but as time has gone on, and my opinion of certain things in the show has changed, including Whedon's writing. I don't think she fully loved Spike at the end. She was just trying to be kind to a dying man. So when when Spike said "No you don't but thanks for saying It" He was saying the truth, however heart breaking that may be. For me that makes his sacrifice even more noble as he went to his death knowing that and yet he still acted, doing It because It was the right thing to do and not just for the love of one women.

If he had lived, I think she would have gone on to form a relationship with him, but at that point, no. I don't think she felt truly anything for anyone on. Life had taken too much of a toll those past few years and she just need to recamp and recharge.

Priceless
12-04-18, 02:14 PM
Call this sacrilege, but as time has gone on, and my opinion of certain things in the show has changed, including Whedon's writing. I don't think she fully loved Spike at the end. I think when Spike said "No you don't but thanks for saying It" He was saying the truth as however heart breaking that may be.

If he had lived, I think she would have, but at that point, no. I don't think she felt truly anything for anyone on. Life had taken too much of a toll those past few years and she just need to recamp and recharge.

You're not alone in thinking Buffy didn't love Spike. Spike himself doesn't even believe it :) I watch S7 and I cannot believe she doesn't love him just by the way she looks at him, works with him, has his chip removed, supports him, rescues him from The First. Everything she does is for Spike, she pushes away her watcher, her friends and the potentials, but she brings him closer and closer.

It's all about interpretation and all views are valid, I choose to believe it was love :heart: but I understand others see different things.

vampmogs
12-04-18, 02:16 PM
I admit I have an axe to grind, I'm a massive Spuffy fan. To me Buffy loved Spike in S6 and could finally admit it in S7. I can't help but feel POTN is not wanting to alienate his public. As I say, wait till S7, he'll be a Spuffy fan by the end of the show, bugger the cookie dough :p

POTN has seen the show many times. Why do you think his opinion would change this time around? He seems to have firmly established his opinions on the series overall.

Silver1
12-04-18, 02:17 PM
You're not alone in thinking Buffy didn't love Spike. Spike himself doesn't even believe it :) I watch S7 and I cannot believe she doesn't love him just by the way she looks at him, works with him, has his chip removed, supports him, rescues him from The First. Everything she does is for Spike, she pushes away her watcher, her friends and the potentials, but she brings him closer and closer.

It's all about interpretation and all views are valid, I choose to believe it was love :heart: but I understand others see different things.



Yeah, I wanted it to be real too, but sadly imo It wasn't. :(

Priceless
12-04-18, 02:32 PM
POTN has seen the show many times. Why do you think his opinion would change this time around? He seems to have firmly established his opinions on the series overall.

I'm sure we've all loved Buffy for a long time, but lots of our opinions have changed over time. I'm sure POTN has mentioned that his views and opinions change with each watch. I guess it's just my Spuffy love, I cannot imagine anyone watching S7 an not seeing something special in the Buffy/Spike relationship, and when POTN talked about toxic, I assumed he meant S6

vampmogs
12-04-18, 02:32 PM
I think Buffy meant what she said in Chosen but I also don't think she had any plans to settle into a committed relationship with Spike. For one thing, despite their closeness in S7, she didn't feel she owed him any kind of faithfulness as even up until the end she kissed Angel upon seeing him. I also think that her "I do sometimes think that far ahead" and "It'll be years, if ever" to Angel, whilst not in any way a promise to him, is not the kind of thing you speculate about with another guy or even allude to with another guy, if you're planning on entering a committed relationship with someone else. And then of course there's the cookie dough speech where she explicitly states she needs to grow before she's ready for someone to enjoy warm, delicious cookie Buffy.

But I also admit that knowing what went on behind the scenes does effect how I view their relationship in the text. Knowing that Whedon seriously considered Buffy/Xander for S7 and approached both actors about it suggests that, even after S6, it was never a forgone conclusion that that Buffy/Spike were meant to end up together or even that the ship would continue to be explored past S6. And knowing that Whedon was uncomfortable showing them being intimate after the AR meant that there was always going to be limitations in how far they were willing to go with the ship again which would've been impractical if the series had continued past S7. I can't help but let these things shape how I interpret Buffy/Spike in the text and what exactly their relationship was. I think it was definitely romantic but I think it was largely a result of circumstance with the war with The First making them have to be so close together. After the war and with no reason that forced them to literally live under the same roof, and with Buffy wanting to spend time discovering herself, I think they'd have slowly drifted apart.


I'm sure we've all loved Buffy for a long time, but lots of our opinions have changed over time. I'm sure POTN has mentioned that his views and opinions change with each watch. I guess it's just my Spuffy love, I cannot imagine anyone watching S7 an not seeing something special in the Buffy/Spike relationship, and when POTN talked about toxic, I assumed he meant S6

Well I'm your proof I guess that you can watch S7 and not turn into a Spuffy shipper. For the most part I appreciate their storyline in S7 (I do have a few issues with it though) but it hasn't turned me into a Spuffy shipper. I think POTN is probably similar in the sense that, as he says, he appreciates the interesting things all of Buffy's relationships bring to the show and admires them on that level, but he's not about to start swooning over them. I've come to enjoy all of Buffy's main relationships but I don't ship them.

Priceless
12-04-18, 02:38 PM
I thought it was SMG that went to Joss with the Xander/Buffy storyline and Joss said no, it didn't work with what they were going for in the season, and it does change things if it was Joss' idea. Wonder why he didn't go for it?

Of course I am positive that Buffy and Spike would have been a couple if the show continued. 'Spike' was Buffy's last word and I do think that meant something :)

flow
12-04-18, 02:40 PM
I think, that this applies to Spike as well. He needed and wanted time to discover himself and to find his own path. To find out, what he wanted to do with his time on earth. You could say, he was cookie dough as well and it was a good thing, they drifted apart after season 7. Although it wasn`t a slow drifting apart but rather a very explosive one :-)

But to me it makes their relationship in the comics so much more plausible.

I have always heard, that it were SMG and NB, who talked to JW about a Buffy/Xander relationship in season 7 and that it was JW, who rejected the idea. This is the first time, someone mentions, it was the other way round. Do you know more about it ? Why didn`t JW pursue the idea further?

flow

Silver1
12-04-18, 02:41 PM
But I also admit that knowing what went on behind the scenes does effect how I view their relationship in the text. Knowing that Whedon seriously considered Buffy/Xander for S7 and approached both actors about it suggests that, even after S6,

Now I gotta ask here where did that rumour come from, because to this day I've not managed to track down the source apart from Brendon, who's often not the most reliable of sources.

And yeah, after 'Seeing Red' you just know If the show had gone on beyond 7 there was no coming back from that one.

Priceless
12-04-18, 02:46 PM
I think, that this applies to Spike as well. He needed and wanted time to discover himself and to find his own path. To find out, what he wanted to do with his time on earth. You could say, he was cookie dough as well and it was a good thing, they drifted apart after season 7. Although it wasn`t a slow drifting apart but rather a very explosive one :-)

But to me it makes their relationship in the comics so much more plausible.

I have always heard, that it were SMG and NB, who talked to JW about a Buffy/Xander relationship in season 7 and that it was JW, who rejected the idea. This is the first time, someone mentions, it was the other way round. Do you know more about it ? Why didn`t JW pursue the idea further?

flow

Good point about Spike needing to find himself, separate from Buffy. He kinda did that in LA with Angel at Wolfram & Hart. I watched a couple of Season 5 eps this morning and I forgot how much I enjoy Spike and Angel together, though without Buffy, Spike seems more immature.

vampmogs
12-04-18, 02:47 PM
I thought it was SMG that went to Joss with the Xander/Buffy storyline and Joss said no, it didn't work with what they were going for in the season, and it does change things if it was Joss' idea. Wonder why he didn't go for it?

I'm not sure why he didn't go for it but it surprised me when I heard it. I had assumed that it was a forgone conclusion that they'd continue to explore Buffy/Spike in S7 the same way it was a forgone conclusion that they'd continue to explore Buffy/Angel in S3. Knowing that they considered going in another direction really impacts how I view the trajectory of their storyline.


Of course I am positive that Buffy and Spike would have been a couple if the show continued. 'Spike' was Buffy's last word and I do think that meant something :)

Personally, I sure hope not. The idea that Buffy's last word on the show was her boyfriend's name and that was supposed to mean something, IMO, greatly undermines a great deal of what they were trying to achieve for 7 years. I choose not to read too much into it. Ultimately I think it was her growing smile at the end that was meant to be important which Whedon talks about in the DVD commentary (and he doesn't mention her final word at all for what it's worth).

HardlyThere
12-04-18, 02:54 PM
I thought it was SMG that went to Joss with the Xander/Buffy storyline and Joss said no, it didn't work with what they were going for in the season, and it does change things if it was Joss' idea. Wonder why he didn't go for it?

Of course I am positive that Buffy and Spike would have been a couple if the show continued. 'Spike' was Buffy's last word and I do think that meant something :)

There are numerous stories. It started out as Sarah and Nic went to Joss to *ask* if he was doing that because it was believed that was his plan. That's the trope, after all. Joss said no. This has been changed over the years to various incarnations of Joss deciding to placate fans and SMG kicking his door down and demanding it. According to Jane, she hinted it was planned in S6 for Spuffy in S7. This seems to have the most support given other comments because the rationale for why they could do the AR was Luke and Laura, who were romantically involved after a rape. There's no reason to juxtapose those two if they weren't going ahead with a B/S storyline.

I have no doubt they talked about B/X in S7. Memory serves they talked about Willow and Xander in S7, too. There aren't too many storylines that aren't pitched and kicked around before something is settled. At a fan M&G before S7, someone joked about Buffy/Willow to which he responded he'd never put the core 4 together because it would ruin the dynamic.

What the actual truth in all of it is? Who knows. The writers probably dont' even remember at this point.

vampmogs
12-04-18, 02:55 PM
I have always heard, that it were SMG and NB, who talked to JW about a Buffy/Xander relationship in season 7 and that it was JW, who rejected the idea. This is the first time, someone mentions, it was the other way round. Do you know more about it ? Why didn`t JW pursue the idea further?

flow

I had always heard it as them approaching him as well but it was in one of the 20th Anniversary interviews where it was brought up again and it was said that it was Joss who considered it. I can't remember the exact interview or who said it (I think it was NB) but I'll see if I can dig it up. It took me by surprise.



And yeah, after 'Seeing Red' you just know If the show had gone on beyond 7 there was no coming back from that one.

Pretty much this. They spent the entirety of S7 being coy about their relationship because, as per Whedon's own words, they didn't want to send the wrong message by having them be intimate on screen again or even enter a committed relationship (he said he didn't want it to be like Luke & Laura getting married after the rape). Knowing that's how they felt, I really don't see how they could have continued with the relationship much longer when they clearly felt conflicted about it and such restrictions were being placed on the writing. They could get away with it in S7 but it wouldn't have been able to continue on like that for much longer had the show continued.

I also wonder if that’s why they toyed with the idea of Buffy/Xander in S7 instead. The extreme backlash to the AR was probably more than they had anticipated and probably gave them cold feet about wanting to continue with the storyline.


This seems to have the most support given other comments because the rationale for why they could do the AR was Luke and Laura, who were romantically involved after a rape. There's no reason to juxtapose those two if they weren't going ahead with a B/S storyline.

Luke and Laura wasn't used as the rationale for why they could continue the relationship. It was actually used by Whedon as an example of what they *didn't* want to do. From the DVD Commentary;

"Not – and I've said this before, but I'll say it again – not in a Luke and Laura "he rapes her and they get married" way. Not in an "all is forgiven" way. Just in the way of he's still a human being who did a wrong thing and we still count him as a human being. I think that's a very important message, that their relationship should be complicated, and yet come to a place of trust. Without saying "Okay, now they're going to become lovers again", because I think that would be wrong. I think that's the wrong message. It's a very fine line."

Silver1
12-04-18, 03:00 PM
Gotta admit here I don't believe the Xander/Buffy stuff was ever a serious contender. It doesn't seem like the kind of thing Whedon would go for. I always put that rumour down as Brendon trying to big up his characters role in the grand scheme of things.

HardlyThere
12-04-18, 03:05 PM
Now I gotta ask here where did that rumour come from, because to this day I've not managed to track down the source apart from Brendon, who's often not the most reliable of sources.


Truth. In terms of reliability, Nicky is not high especially as time has passed.

I really doubt they ever considered B/X outside of a writers room "what if" scenario. The same with Buffy/Wood, which was apparently also on the table according to DB Woodside before Sarah talked them out of killing him early.

Silver1
12-04-18, 03:11 PM
Well I was told years back by someone in the know so to speak, that the studio had wanted to fire Brendon years earlier then a lot of us suspected. I can't remember at what season, (maybe season 4?) Which completely shocked me.

Apparently it was only the intervention of Whedon and (I think) SMG that got them to reconsider. So the poor sod was always playing on borrowed time sadly.

vampmogs
12-04-18, 03:26 PM
Really? I've never heard that before. Was that due to his problems? I thought that they didn't begin to start becoming an issue until later into the series? He's very lucky he kept his job in S7 considering that he continuously turned up to set drunk.

I've only ever heard that about Charisma. Apparently the studio was very unhappy with her in AtS S3 because she kept forgetting her lines and holding production up and there were other things such as cutting her hair without telling them etc. Apparently Joss and David Greenwalt had to convince them not to fire her which is why there were speculation that she wasn't even going to return in S4 (you can find some of the old articles from the S3-S4 summer break speculating if she was going to be asked back still archived on Whedonesque).

HardlyThere
12-04-18, 03:34 PM
I had always heard it as them approaching him as well but it was in one of the 20th Anniversary interviews where it was brought up again and it was said that it was Joss who considered it. I can't remember the exact interview or who said it (I think it was NB) but I'll see if I can dig it up. It took me by surprise.



Pretty much this. They spent the entirety of S7 being coy about their relationship because, as per Whedon's own words, they didn't want to send the wrong message by having them be intimate on screen again or even enter a committed relationship (he said he didn't want it to be like Luke & Laura getting married after the rape). Knowing that's how they felt, I really don't see how they could have continued with the relationship much longer when they clearly felt conflicted about it and such restrictions were being placed on the writing. They could get away with it in S7 but it wouldn't have been able to continue on like that for much longer had the show continued.

I also wonder if that’s why they toyed with the idea of Buffy/Xander in S7 instead. The extreme backlash to the AR was probably more than they had anticipated and probably gave them cold feet about wanting to continue with the storyline.



Luke and Laura wasn't used as the rationale for why they could continue the relationship. It was actually used by Whedon as an example of what they *didn't* want to do. From the DVD Commentary;

"Not – and I've said this before, but I'll say it again – not in a Luke and Laura "he rapes her and they get married" way. Not in an "all is forgiven" way. Just in the way of he's still a human being who did a wrong thing and we still count him as a human being. I think that's a very important message, that their relationship should be complicated, and yet come to a place of trust. Without saying "Okay, now they're going to become lovers again", because I think that would be wrong. I think that's the wrong message. It's a very fine line."

That's from the commentary. When the whole thing came up in S6, Jane was very, very against it. The reasoning why they could go through with it, which she was ambivalent about, was Luke and Laura.

There was a big stink about this contradiction when that commentary came out.

Jane: I love Spike. I was very worried about the attempted rape... because that's not something you play around with. That's not something... it's very hard to come back from. And you know, you can say Luke and Laura came back from it, but that was a different time. I think we have to be very careful that we are not saying anything about humans.
-Succubus Club May 2002.

That's an aside, though. The very fact that in May they were juxtaposing Buffy and Spike to that couple after is evidence that was their plan.

- - - Updated - - -


Really? I've never heard that before. Was that due to his problems? I thought that they didn't begin to start becoming an issue until later into the series? He's very lucky he kept his job in S7 considering that he continuously turned up to set drunk.

I've only ever heard that about Charisma. Apparently the studio was very unhappy with her in AtS S3 because she kept forgetting her lines and holding production up and there were other things such as cutting her hair without telling them etc. Apparently Joss and David Greenwalt had to convince them not to fire her which is why there were speculation that she wasn't even going to return in S4 (you can find some of the old articles from the S3-S4 summer break speculating if she was going to be asked back still archived on Whedonesque).

Which is why I don't really believe they considered B/X very hard even outside of narrative choice.

Silver1
12-04-18, 03:39 PM
Really? I've never heard that before. Was that due to his problems? I thought that they didn't begin to start becoming an issue until later into the series? He's very lucky he kept his job in S7 considering that he continuously turned up to set drunk.

I've only ever heard that about Charisma. Apparently the studio was very unhappy with her in AtS S3 because she kept forgetting her lines and holding production up and there were other things such as cutting her hair without telling them etc. Apparently Joss and David Greenwalt had to convince them not to fire her which is why there were speculation that she wasn't even going to return in S4 (you can find some of the old articles from the S3-S4 summer break speculating if she was going to be asked back still archived on Whedonesque).

His drinking was becoming a problem even back then apparently. I have a feeing that it was the moment he got a taste of fame and a larger income. :(

I hadn't heard that they'd had a problem with Charisma, apart from the infamous pregnancy thing.

Oh dear...:(

SpuffyGlitz
12-04-18, 03:46 PM
Well, I don't think Joss or the writers are going to have a limited capacity for Spuffy because of the Seeing Red episode. I don't think it impacts or limits Spike-Buffy for the entirety of their relationship or its long term persistence - Joss himself has said (I quote): "In terms of a long term relationship? Spike's kinda your guy...He actually went and got a soul because of her! I’m a Buffy/Spike shipper. I always felt like he was a more evolved person, but that’s like saying Juliet’s going to be so happy with Benvolio and everyone will love it. Buffy/Angel is for the ages; Buffy/Spike is maybe for me."

PS: I'm not surprised at the unreliability of NB starting as early as S4, because sometimes even in the acting he did seem kind overly tense or strained. Sometimes it worked in the character's favour, and sometimes it didn't.

Silver1
12-04-18, 03:52 PM
Like I said If Spike had lived and they'd been further seasons of Buffy then they maybe could have taken a slow and careful route back to forming some kind of relationship, but the AR certainly poisoned the water imo.

Thats why Espenson was right in her assumption. It's not a plot point you can walk easily away from.

HardlyThere
12-04-18, 03:57 PM
His drinking was becoming a problem even back then apparently. I have a feeing that it was the moment he got a taste of fame and a larger income. :(

I hadn't heard that they'd had a problem with Charisma, apart from the infamous pregnancy thing.

Oh dear...:(

Current fandom really likes to frame that situation a certain way. Charisma's issues with learning lines and hitting marks was there from the beginning. They had to hire a special coach to come in to help her with things. There was a lot more going on there than the current claim of her getting pregnant.

betta
12-04-18, 04:07 PM
Current fandom really likes to frame that situation a certain way. Charisma's issues with learning lines and hitting marks was there from the beginning. They had to hire a special coach to come in to help her with things. There was a lot more going on there than the current claim of her getting pregnant.

Yes, Charisma talked about her problems, I think I read it on Slayers & Vampires - The Complete, Uncensored, Unauthorized Oral History of Buffy and Angel; I'm looking for the quotes.

Stoney
12-04-18, 04:35 PM
I think it is right that they didn't go there on the show, but they did do a slow development of Spike/Buffy post the AR and him becoming souled since. I know it's the comic continuation and many in fandom don't care about it, but it is Joss' official continuation and they have gone there and specifically dealt with Spike and Buffy's history and faced the backlash from those in fandom that disapprove or hate the pairing but they've done it anyway so they obviously do feel like it could be gotten past in time. :noidea:

EDIT: And yeah, I think Buffy meant the ILY. I don't think she wanted or would have actively sought a romantic relationship at that point, but I think her actions through the season showed really clearly that she loved him so her words have always seemed sincere to me.


I'm sure early on POTN said he was basing all his Buffy reviews on Mark Fields book. I think it's shame really that he's hamstrung himself to one text, when there is a whole world of Buffy work out there. I've not read the book.

I never read reviews or books on Buffy. I like discussing it because it feels like I play an active part in my understanding of the show and my interpretation. Just reading on it feels like I'd be being told what to think. I'm not sure if that makes sense. :s

Silver1
12-04-18, 04:46 PM
Current fandom really likes to frame that situation a certain way. Charisma's issues with learning lines and hitting marks was there from the beginning. They had to hire a special coach to come in to help her with things. There was a lot more going on there than the current claim of her getting pregnant.

Yeah, that doesn't come as much a surprise to me sadly.

betta
12-04-18, 07:24 PM
Slayers & Vampires - The Complete, Uncensored, Unauthorized Oral History of Buffy and Angel

Edward Gross and Mark A. Altman

Charisma talking about her anxiety problem:

https://i.imgur.com/uy9edbG.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/90x4sw7.jpg

bespangled
13-04-18, 01:45 AM
Really surprised how many of you are on the bookie-dough wagon. Personally I thought it was bland and pandering on the show and feel it's even more bland and pandering when anyone backs it in real life.

I admit I have an axe to grind, I'm a massive Spuffy fan. To me Buffy loved Spike in S6 and could finally admit it in S7. I can't help but feel POTN is not wanting to alienate his public. As I say, wait till S7, he'll be a Spuffy fan by the end of the show, bugger the cookie dough :p

I see bookiedough as simply saying what we all know - none of Buffy's relationships were supremely healthy in the show. I can definitely appreciate Spuffy, but it requires leaving the constraints of the show and making change (as all fan fiction does). I do think what Buffy and Spike had was beautiful, but I also think it wasn't sustainable for life partners. But Buffy and Spike had some growing up to do whether it was done in fiction or in the comics.


Well I was told years back by someone in the know so to speak, that the studio had wanted to fire Brendon years earlier then a lot of us suspected. I can't remember at what season, (maybe season 4?) Which completely shocked me.

Apparently it was only the intervention of Whedon and (I think) SMG that got them to reconsider. So the poor sod was always playing on borrowed time sadly.

Yeah - he told the press immediately aftr the show was over that he was going into rehab. I wasn't even a Buffy fan, but for some reasoni took note of that.


Current fandom really likes to frame that situation a certain way. Charisma's issues with learning lines and hitting marks was there from the beginning. They had to hire a special coach to come in to help her with things. There was a lot more going on there than the current claim of her getting pregnant.

I am one of few people who - while decrying the way Joss treated Charsma - will also point out how incredibly unprofessional it is to get pregnant while under contract and not tell the showrunners until well after the entire season arc has been laid out. She was already showing when she started filming. Charisma seems like a lovely woman but clearly this was the last straw for Joss.

vampmogs
13-04-18, 08:20 AM
Fandom has definitely oversimplified the Joss/Charisma situation. It'll never be ok how he went about firing her (and he can be a prick - you should see SMG publicly calling him out for his comments about Cruel Intentions at the time) but there was more to it than "Joss is angry because Charisma got pregnant." As I said, there's articles still archived on Whedonesque from that time and they were speculating whether or not Charisma was going to return as a cast member for S4. There was already dramas prior to S4 and prior to Charisma getting pregnant. I think she seems like a nice lady but I also think she had moments of unprofessionalism as well which contributed to the bad blood between them.

betta
13-04-18, 04:43 PM
I am one of few people who - while decrying the way Joss treated Charsma - will also point out how incredibly unprofessional it is to get pregnant while under contract and not tell the showrunners until well after the entire season arc has been laid out. She was already showing when she started filming. Charisma seems like a lovely woman but clearly this was the last straw for Joss.


I think she seems like a nice lady but I also think she had moments of unprofessionalism as well which contributed to the bad blood between them.

I also think that what she did was wrong, very wrong but... she had had a miscarriage, wanted a baby so bad, and decided to hold on to that pregnancy no matter what. And it seems it was her only chance, because she has not had children since. It's complicated.

HardlyThere
13-04-18, 08:58 PM
I also think that what she did was wrong, very wrong but... she had had a miscarriage, wanted a baby so bad, and decided to hold on to that pregnancy no matter what. And it seems it was her only chance, because she has not had children since. It's complicated.

The thing of it is that yes, they were frustrated with the delayed announcement, it's not why they "destroyed" Cordy in S4. Cordy was always slated to be bad in S4. What changed was instead of being Jasmine, they made her pregnant with Jasmine to explain her pregnancy. It wasn't some vengeance against Charisma and there is zero to indicate she was, as the fandom claims, she was fired over it.