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bespangled
11-04-18, 09:11 AM
She shows up in Sunnydale, after having seen her watcher get torn apart. Evidently she managed to slice Kakistos face before she ran off. Since she was from Boston, it probably took her months to get to CA on her own. While Buffy was getting over killing Angel, Faith was on the run from Kakistos. We know a few things about her - she was 16 (canonically a year younger than Buffy), She had one parent, an alcoholic who didn't give a shit about her.Her watcher was probably the only stability and love in her life. Perhaps while she was on the run, if not before, she had been sexually abused - trading her body for money or safety. She talks about the various men she has been with later on with Spike - granola guy and the bullwhip guy. We know she was comatose and then jailed to this all happened when she was 16 or younger. It wasn't love - it was survival.

She shows up in Suunydale, and get a room in a seedy motel which she is unable to pay for. Since she has no apparent source of money, most likely she steals to eat. She goes to dinner at Buffy's and steals food from the serving dishes - that is someone who has known hunger. You steal food while the room is empty so you don't end up asking for too much. They fights, and Faith kills Kakistos. At the very end Giles is assigned to be Faith's watcher.

So what does Giles do? He leaves a 16 year old traumatized girl in a seedy motel with no way to get food. He invites her to come along whenever he's training Buffy - his slayer. He ignores her as far as we are shown. Yes, Faith puts out an I can take care of myself vibe. Giles makes no attempt to reach beyond that. Faith stays completely abandoned in that room for 3 months - in the same room. She acts out - hides behind a cloak of bravado just like Buffy hid hers behind apathy, and later I'm fine. Giles gets upset that Faith is irresponsible.

After 3 months of leaving Faith in a situation that he wouldn't have left Buffy in for one night - or any of the scoobies - he is shocked, I tell you shocked that Faith doesn't trust him enough to come to him when she needed help.

The world has shown Faith that she is her own friend, that she has to take care of herself because no one else will. Giles has seriously reinforced that idea by being criminally negligent.Willow - who is so over-parented that her mother still dresses her in high school, whose worst fear is a B, lectures Faith. Well, boo hoo! Poor you. You know, you had a lot more in your life than some people. I mean, you had friends in your life like Buffy. Gee, really? Buffy has to be coaxed into allowing Faith to come to Xmas dinner.

I really can understand why Faith switched sides.I don't agree with some of the choices she made, but she clearly is not evil by nature. She's opportunistic.

vampmogs
11-04-18, 02:48 PM
Eh, I wouldn't say that Faith is "evil by nature" but I also wouldn't minimise some of her crimes by saying that she's just opportunistic either. Obviously her coldblooded murder of Professor Worth was horrible but her plans to slowly and sadistically torture Buffy in Enemies is about as evil as anything we ever saw in the series. Like, she actually planned to "cut into" somebody who she knew, had befriended, and who had offered to help her, out of pure enraging jealousy. That's where Faith lost my sympathy completely in S3 and this was only cemented further by the pure sadism she exhibited when getting such pleasure out of poisoning and attempting to kill Angel (and causing Buffy anguish) and killing a defenceless old man. Faith had a tough life and the Scoobies, especially Giles, did drop the ball in a lot of ways, but a lot of people go through much worse and don't resort to the evil that Faith did. You can't even say that she's just acting opportunistically by carrying out the Mayor's orders because her rant to Buffy in Enemies makes it undoubtedly clear that she wanted to torture Buffy because of her own resentment and not just because the Mayor asked her to.

Giles did a really piss poor job as Faith's Watcher though. I agree with you that it was pretty unacceptable that he let her stay in the dingy motel and his indifference at Faith "not being interested in proper training" is a stark contrast to how firm he was with Buffy in Reptile Boy. In fact, in Reptile Boy he tells Buffy that the reason he's so hard on her is because he knows what she has to face and it's out of obvious care and concern for her, so it's pretty damning that he obviously doesn't care as much about Faith's well-being considering she also faces the forces of darkness as well.

I disagree with you about Buffy though. Buffy absolutely does share some of the blame for the breakdown of her relationship with Faith given that their relationship started off badly and the trust issues that were caused after keeping Angel a secret but I don't blame her for being uneasy about inviting Faith to Christmas dinner. She was uneasy about inviting her because Faith was angry at her since Revelations and in The Wish Buffy states that Faith has basically been ignoring her. Joyce was unaware of this and Buffy, like most teenagers, didn't share issues she was having with her friends to her mum. I would point out that despite being uneasy about inviting Faith, and despite Faith rejecting her offer, Buffy had still bought Faith a gift (it was up in her room) which is pretty sweet IMO. And Buffy was pretty damn forgiving for still wanting to help Faith after Faith tried to frame her for Finch's murder.

betta
11-04-18, 04:31 PM
Eh, I wouldn't say that Faith is "evil by nature" but I also wouldn't minimise some of her crimes by saying that she's just opportunistic either. Obviously her coldblooded murder of Professor Worth was horrible but her plans to slowly and sadistically torture Buffy in Enemies is about as evil as anything we ever saw in the series. Like, she actually planned to "cut into" somebody who she knew, had befriended, and who had offered to help her, out of pure enraging jealousy. That's where Faith lost my sympathy completely in S3 and this was only cemented further by the pure sadism she exhibited when getting such pleasure out of poisoning and attempting to kill Angel (and causing Buffy anguish) and killing a defenceless old man. Faith had a tough life and the Scoobies, especially Giles, did drop the ball in a lot of ways, but a lot of people go through much worse and don't resort to the evil that Faith did.

^

This.

"But a lot of people go through much worse and don't resort to the evil that Faith did"

What she did, she did because she wasn't a good person, not because she was poor or had been abused. She could well be Genevieve from the comics; filthy rich, and still wanting to do harm to others: want, take, have.

That's why I think Faith's redemption feels inorganic, it was just a rushed decision of the writers to change a popular character to keep her in the story, to be used as an ally when necessary (BtVS, comics), or try her as a tittle character (comics). To say the least, her sadism couldn't have be simply gone of her personality; that's not real.

HardlyThere
11-04-18, 04:46 PM
it is nowhere implied Faith is 16. The script says she's 18ish, which puts her at least as old as the gang, if not older since she's a dropout.

It's sad she got played by Gwen Post but she's the on who fell for the con. She's the one who chose someone she just met over the people she claims to want to be a part of.

GoSpuffy
12-04-18, 12:40 AM
it is nowhere implied Faith is 16. The script says she's 18ish, which puts her at least as old as the gang, if not older since she's a dropout.

It's sad she got played by Gwen Post but she's the on who fell for the con. She's the one who chose someone she just met over the people she claims to want to be a part of.
Really? That surprises me, I always thought she was 16ish

bespangled
12-04-18, 01:23 AM
Eh, I wouldn't say that Faith is "evil by nature" but I also wouldn't minimise some of her crimes by saying that she's just opportunistic either. Obviously her coldblooded murder of Professor Worth was horrible but her plans to slowly and sadistically torture Buffy in Enemies is about as evil as anything we ever saw in the series. Like, she actually planned to "cut into" somebody who she knew, had befriended, and who had offered to help her, out of pure enraging jealousy. That's where Faith lost my sympathy completely in S3 and this was only cemented further by the pure sadism she exhibited when getting such pleasure out of poisoning and attempting to kill Angel (and causing Buffy anguish) and killing a defenceless old man. Faith had a tough life and the Scoobies, especially Giles, did drop the ball in a lot of ways, but a lot of people go through much worse and don't resort to the evil that Faith did. You can't even say that she's just acting opportunistically by carrying out the Mayor's orders because her rant to Buffy in Enemies makes it undoubtedly clear that she wanted to torture Buffy because of her own resentment and not just because the Mayor asked her to.

She does talk a great show in Enemies - and might well have gone through with it. But here's the thing. If Faith had been accepted from the start, would she have gone there? And while you are asking yourself how far a person will go, keep in mind how far Buffy went. She gutted Faith in an attempt to murder her. There were other ways to get slayer blood. So does Buffy lose your support for planning out and carrying out her successful murder attempt? Had Faith not had slayer healing Buffy would have killed her without a moment of remorse. There's a real double standard there.



Giles did a really piss poor job as Faith's Watcher though. I agree with you that it was pretty unacceptable that he let her stay in the dingy motel and his indifference at Faith "not being interested in proper training" is a stark contrast to how firm he was with Buffy in Reptile Boy. In fact, in Reptile Boy he tells Buffy that the reason he's so hard on her is because he knows what she has to face and it's out of obvious care and concern for her, so it's pretty damning that he obviously doesn't care as much about Faith's well-being considering she also faces the forces of darkness as well.

He also knows her trauma - the fact that her watcher was murdered in front of her, and that she tried to fight off Kakistos. He should realize that she saved Buffy's life at least twice that I can recall. If he had been the parental figure that he was to Buffy and the scoobies, then Faith wouldn't have hooked up with the mayor.


I disagree with you about Buffy though. Buffy absolutely does share some of the blame for the breakdown of her relationship with Faith given that their relationship started off badly and the trust issues that were caused after keeping Angel a secret but I don't blame her for being uneasy about inviting Faith to Christmas dinner. She was uneasy about inviting her because Faith was angry at her since Revelations and in The Wish Buffy states that Faith has basically been ignoring her. Joyce was unaware of this and Buffy, like most teenagers, didn't share issues she was having with her friends to her mum. I would point out that despite being uneasy about inviting Faith, and despite Faith rejecting her offer, Buffy had still bought Faith a gift (it was up in her room) which is pretty sweet IMO. And Buffy was pretty damn forgiving for still wanting to help Faith after Faith tried to frame her for Finch's murder.

Look at what happened in Revelations - Faith tried to get closer by sharing some personal info - Buffy refused to talk. Buffy goes off to suck face with her undead lover (to quote Cordy) rather than patrol with Faith. Faith's new watcher shows - and she even seems like she would be good for Faith. Finally she will have one person in her life who isn't interested in only Buffy. The group holds secret meeting without Faith, which her watcher tells her about. Xander tells her about Angel. She goes to the mansion to find aa Angel, a vampire in vamp face, attacking her watcher.

Faith saw her watcher brutally murdered by a vampire - no one has done anything to help her with that trauma. She attacks the vampire - and Buffy stops her from staking him. They fight until finally Gwen puts on the arm - and tells Faith she is an idiot. So, give me one reason why it is up to Faith to heal that breach - or why it's okay that Buffy's weak "no really, you can trust me" is all that is needed. The fact that Faith and Buffy are barely speaking since then isn't the excuse, it's the problem. And it really is on Buffy to solve. If she really wanted Faith as a friend, then she would have done something.

That's the thing about Buffy - she really is devoted to her friends. Willow can almost kill Dan in a car accident, and Buffy beats herself up for not taking better care of Willow. So when Willow claims that Buffy wanted to be Faith's friend - I just don't buy it.



it is nowhere implied Faith is 16. The script says she's 18ish, which puts her at least as old as the gang, if not older since she's a dropout.

Faith hasn't had a cruciantem. And I'm not sure what being a dropout has to do with her age.



It's sad she got played by Gwen Post but she's the on who fell for the con. She's the one who chose someone she just met over the people she claims to want to be a part of.

She wanted to be part of - who repeatedly rejected her when push came to shove.

I am not saying Faith is good and pure, that she bears no responsibility for the choices she made, or that her choices were the right ones. I am saying that a kid with no stable home life, no one to teach her any real concept of absolute morality is not gonna make good choices. She is driven by bitterness and jealousy - but also by fear and self loathing. Since the show is Buffy's show - then Faith is shown as evil. She isn't. When Buffy was going to die, Faith killed Trick. When Angel was going to die, Buffy almost killed Faith to use her blood to save him. Faith s only alive because Buffy failed.

HardlyThere
12-04-18, 01:47 AM
Faith hasn't had a cruciantem. And I'm not sure what being a dropout has to do with her age.

So? That's just a case that she's already over 18. You can't drop out without your parents permission if you aren't of voting age.


She wanted to be part of - who repeatedly rejected her when push came to shove.

I am not saying Faith is good and pure, that she bears no responsibility for the choices she made, or that her choices were the right ones. I am saying that a kid with no stable home life, no one to teach her any real concept of absolute morality is not gonna make good choices. She is driven by bitterness and jealousy - but also by fear and self loathing. Since the show is Buffy's show - then Faith is shown as evil. She isn't. When Buffy was going to die, Faith killed Trick. When Angel was going to die, Buffy almost killed Faith to use her blood to save him. Faith s only alive because Buffy failed.

Yes, you are. That's why you keep trying to claim she's 16 because you think it mitigates her responsibility. Just a kid, amirite? It's all the gang's fault because they didn't accept her. Except SHE rejected them. She's the one that chose Post over them. She's the one that refused to listen when even Xander came to his senses. She's the one that threw her "friends" under the bus.

And you know what? Who cares if they did flat-out reject her? That exonerates her behavior? Nonsense logic. That's why we scoff at Tucker for training demon dogs because girls wouldn't go out with him. No one is entitled to friendship.

Why exactly was Angel going to die again? And since we all know what your answer is going to be, was Xander justified in attempting to kill Spike in Entropy? Giles and Wood in LMPTM? They're both vampires and they deserve to die.

bespangled
12-04-18, 02:43 AM
So? That's just a case that she's already over 18. You can't drop out without your parents permission if you aren't of voting age.

That's ridiculous. You can drop out of school at any age. Kids do it all the time. It's best if you get a GED, but in reality the worst that will happen is that your parent will go to jail for not making you go to school in some places. I doubt Faith worried about that. Besides which, in the inner city no one cares if the parents don't

Curciantem is when a slayer turns 18 - Faith didn't have a cruciantem.


Yes, you are. That's why you keep trying to claim she's 16 because you think it mitigates her responsibility. Just a kid, amirite? It's all the gang's fault because they didn't accept her. Except SHE rejected them. She's the one that chose Post over them. She's the one that refused to listen when even Xander came to his senses. She's the one that threw her "friends" under the bus.


No, I actually believe I know more about what I am talking about than you do.

Excuse me - she chose her new watcher who she had no reason to suspect over a vampire trying to kill her. She chose to believe Xander when he told her that Angel was a danger, and that Buffy was too enthralled by Angel to see the danger. She fought to save them all - including Giles. The result was that she was told she was an idiot, discovered Buffy had lied to her and Xander had used her. Giles, who was her watcher for most of the season never actually gave her any useful information to go on. Willow made it fairly obvious that she resented Faith from early on.

Yeah, of course they were her friends. They included her in all their gatherings, and had shared life stories. They came to her room to visit, and helped her to pay her rent. They even brought her little silly gifts. She ate over at their houses, and knew their families. They were there for her while she recovered from the trauma of seeing her watcher - the only stable adult in her life - get torn to pieces. She had someone to call and reach out to who she knew she could trust. Oops - nope. None of that. That's actual friendship

Mostly they jerked her around - acted nice and said they were friends - then wouldn't tell her what was going on - told her to go fight and then fought against her when she did. I know what was going on - but then I know a helluva lot more than she does because i watch the show. She was seriously gaslighted.


And you know what? Who cares if they did flat-out reject her? That exonerates her behavior? Nonsense logic. That's why we scoff at Tucker for training demon dogs because girls wouldn't go out with him. No one is entitled to friendship.

I didn't exonerate her behavior - in fact, I specifically made a point of not exonerating her. You were the one who said I was trying to. I think you were also the ones who said they were her friends. Were they or weren't they?

And bringing in Tucker? Really?


Why exactly was Angel going to die again? And since we all know what your answer is going to be, was Xander justified in attempting to kill Spike in Entropy? Giles and Wood in LMPTM? They're both vampires and they deserve to die.

Angel was going to die because Faith poisoned him. She used a poison that would take Buffy out of the picture so the mayor could ascend without interference. Faith was bad when she did this - that doesn't exonerate Buffy who keeps saying We Do No Kill People for trying to murder Faith and feed her to Angel. And remember - Buffy did say she was planning to kill Faith, and then bring her to Angel.

We can ignore the whole slayer killing sister slayer to save a vampire angle - although I do think that's pertinent. Buffy could have carried the tranq gun and knocked Faith out - then used her blood to save Angel without killing her. Buffy wanted revenge - she wanted Faith dead.

Kill me - you become me That's exactly what happened. Are you saying that doesn't matter at all? That Buffy is allowed to kill humans who upset her or whose body parts are useful? Exactly how is this different from Willow flaying Warren - oh yeah, Tara was already dead and Willow wasn't the slayer.

BTW - I ship Angel, so please lose the either/or mentality. This is just about Faith for me.

HardlyThere
12-04-18, 10:44 AM
I can see from your first response you don't know what you are talking about. Faith says she dropped out. You can't drop out until you're of age. It's the law. Faith is called 18 in the script. Faith calls herself older. Faith didn't do the test. All this points to one thing... You'd be less transparent if you said 17.


No, I actually believe I know more about what I am talking about than you do.

Excuse me - she chose her new watcher who she had no reason to suspect over a vampire trying to kill her. She chose to believe Xander when he told her that Angel was a danger, and that Buffy was too enthralled by Angel to see the danger. She fought to save them all - including Giles. The result was that she was told she was an idiot, discovered Buffy had lied to her and Xander had used her. Giles, who was her watcher for most of the season never actually gave her any useful information to go on. Willow made it fairly obvious that she resented Faith from early on.

Yeah, of course they were her friends. They included her in all their gatherings, and had shared life stories. They came to her room to visit, and helped her to pay her rent. They even brought her little silly gifts. She ate over at their houses, and knew their families. They were there for her while she recovered from the trauma of seeing her watcher - the only stable adult in her life - get torn to pieces. She had someone to call and reach out to who she knew she could trust. Oops - nope. None of that. That's actual friendship

Mostly they jerked her around - acted nice and said they were friends - then wouldn't tell her what was going on - told her to go fight and then fought against her when she did. I know what was going on - but then I know a helluva lot more than she does because i watch the show. She was seriously gaslighted.

Actually, she chose Xander. One of those horrible friends she had as long as it fit her choices. Through her self-centeredness and ego, she allowed herself to be played. The same way she's played again later. She has issues. Other people have issues and private dealings because they've known each other. They don't assume everything is about them and allow space. Faith asks about Angel, Buffy tells her what happened is still too raw to talk about. Pretty standard convo for someone you've known a short amount of time. Xander was wrong. And? He then tried to convince her to listen after he realized something was fishy. She was hellbent and not to be talked down. Willow didn't like her. So? It's never impressed up on us she liked Willow. She was duped. She was young. She made a mistake. Nothing irreparable.

After all this is misunderstanding is patched up, she did it all again.


And bringing in Tucker? Really?

To close? It's an exactly translatable situation. Even if the Scoobs did all hate her to her core from the outset, it doesn't make a difference.


Angel was going to die because Faith poisoned him. She used a poison that would take Buffy out of the picture so the mayor could ascend without interference. Faith was bad when she did this - that doesn't exonerate Buffy who keeps saying We Do No Kill People for trying to murder Faith and feed her to Angel. And remember - Buffy did say she was planning to kill Faith, and then bring her to Angel.

We can ignore the whole slayer killing sister slayer to save a vampire angle - although I do think that's pertinent. Buffy could have carried the tranq gun and knocked Faith out - then used her blood to save Angel without killing her. Buffy wanted revenge - she wanted Faith dead.

Kill me - you become me That's exactly what happened. Are you saying that doesn't matter at all? That Buffy is allowed to kill humans who upset her or whose body parts are useful? Exactly how is this different from Willow flaying Warren - oh yeah, Tara was already dead and Willow wasn't the slayer.

Is that why she brought handcuffs? I guess dead bodies do put up a fight... Buffy planned to take Faith to Angel to cure him, one way or the other. She made no move on her until it's shown her blood will cure him. That's not revenge. It's life for a life, a decision Faith herself made. Would a "sister" do that, create that situation? You compare it to Warren? Nothing is bringing Tara back. It might have been more interesting if that were the case.


BTW - I ship Angel, so please lose the either/or mentality. This is just about Faith for me.

Actually you just say that so it looks you don't have a side and thus are above all this either/or. Anyone can read your posts and see that.

If it was really all about Faith, you wouldn't be so dishonest about the story.

vampmogs
12-04-18, 10:53 AM
She does talk a great show in Enemies - and might well have gone through with it. But here's the thing. If Faith had been accepted from the start, would she have gone there?

Frankly, it doesn't really matter. Even if I go with you premise that Faith was rejected by the Scoobies, and I don't because I think that's an oversimplification and not entirely true, there's simply no excuse or justification to resorting to brutal sadistic torture because some people didn't want to be your friend. That's not a normal response to being rejected. That's a downright evil response.

And she did more than talk a great show. She robbed Angel of his soul and set Angelus loose on Sunnydale again (or at least she thought), she lured Buffy into a trap, she had already obtained the torture instruments she intended to use on her, and she beat Buffy whilst she was tied up. It's far too late to question whether or not she'd have really gone through with it - she already had.


And while you are asking yourself how far a person will go, keep in mind how far Buffy went. She gutted Faith in an attempt to murder her. There were other ways to get slayer blood. So does Buffy lose your support for planning out and carrying out her successful murder attempt? Had Faith not had slayer healing Buffy would have killed her without a moment of remorse. There's a real double standard there.

There's not a double standard at all because the two situations aren't remotely similar. For one thing, Buffy wasn't cowardly enough to lure Faith into a trap of two against one. Buffy also didn't plan to make Faith's death slow and painful whilst she was tied up and defenceless and tortured. Say what you will about Buffy's attempt to kill Faith but at least Buffy faced off against Faith fair and square. Furthermore, as far as I'm concerned, as a supernatural being, Faith very much falls under Buffy's jurisdiction ("She alone will stand against the vampires, the demons, and the forces of darkness" - that last part would be Faith) and Buffy had a duty to take her out before Graduation Day.


Look at what happened in Revelations - Faith tried to get closer by sharing some personal info - Buffy refused to talk. Buffy goes off to suck face with her undead lover (to quote Cordy) rather than patrol with Faith. Faith's new watcher shows - and she even seems like she would be good for Faith. Finally she will have one person in her life who isn't interested in only Buffy. The group holds secret meeting without Faith, which her watcher tells her about. Xander tells her about Angel. She goes to the mansion to find aa Angel, a vampire in vamp face, attacking her watcher.

I'm not denying any of this and I actually said that Buffy shares the blame for the breakdown of their relationship early on because of how she kept Angel a secret. That doesn't mean Willow is wrong to say that Buffy was Faith's friend. Buffy was incredibly forgiving of Faith after her attempt to frame her in Consequences and she was adamant that Faith could change and that she owes her that chance when everyone, even Angel, doubted it. Faith rejected that chance and that's on her.

And I personally always saw Faith as older. Faith always seemed like the slightly older girl trying to lead the good girl astray. That's totally how I always perceived their dynamic in episodes like Bad Girls. I remember being shocked when I saw fans state that they thought Faith was younger than Buffy.

betta
12-04-18, 04:32 PM
And I think it's kind of naive to think that, if Giles and the Scoobies had been more open to Faith, filled her with love, she would have played nice - we can't be sure of that.

People say the Scoobies didn't like Faith (and they had no obligation to like this strange person who had little in common with them, even with Buffy), but would have Want.-Take.-Have-I-am-the-Law Faith liked the Scoobies that much, I mean, in the long run? A bunch of school nerds who used to listen and work with an old man like Giles?

If Joyce had invited Faith to live in her house (as I've already seen many people suggesting), would she be grateful, or would she be poison between Buffy and her mother?

I mean, when Faith arrives, they didn't know her, her personality, what she was capable to do; but us the viewers know, and I, for one, say that wouldn't have made much difference.

bespangled
13-04-18, 02:30 AM
So - what I am getting from everyone is that Faith was pure evil before she ever showed up. There was no way that anyone could have changed that.

Being raised without any knowledge of her own moral compass is not an excuse doing things that are not moral - any idea of right and wrong should have been picked up on by this child from the streets (which it actually was). Morality is easy to understand without any instructions and should not require a caring parent or an adult in a child's life. Also trauma is not an excuse for doing destructive things (unless you are Buffy, Xander or Willow in season 6). Real friendship has no power and can't pull you back from the brink (once again unless you are Buffy, Xander or Willow in season 6)

Angel was pretty much a sucker for a hard case in believing that Faith could be saved. The fact that she willingly stayed in jail, and broke out only to save him was not realistic because Faith was evil incarnate and incapable of change.

Hardly There


I can see from your first response you don't know what you are talking about. Faith says she dropped out. You can't drop out until you're of age. It's the law. Faith is called 18 in the script. Faith calls herself older. Faith didn't do the test. All this points to one thing... You'd be less transparent if you said 17.

Actually you can legally drop out in the US at 16. But assuming I know nothing about what I am talking about offends me. I'm a former teacher - I have dealt with dropouts. The law means as much as the law against jaywalking in reality.




Is that why she brought handcuffs? I guess dead bodies do put up a fight... Buffy planned to take Faith to Angel to cure him, one way or the other. She made no move on her until it's shown her blood will cure him. That's not revenge

Buffy: No, it's perfect. Angel needs to drain a Slayer, then I'll bring him one.
Willow: Buffy, if Angel drains Faith's blood, it'll kill her.
Buffy: Not if she's already dead.


vampmogs

There's not a double standard at all because the two situations aren't remotely similar. Say what you will about Buffy's attempt to kill Faith but at least Buffy faced off against Faith fair and square.

Faith was the on who ended up gutted and near dead. I am not saying that what Faith did was right. I am saying that if we want to believe in an immutable morality then Buffy also crossed the line, but had no problem, Throughout the show killing a human has been held up as the worst thing a human can do. Buffy had no problem both before and after she gutted Faith

Betta

And I think it's kind of naive to think that, if Giles and the Scoobies had been more open to Faith, filled her with love, she would have played nice - we can't be sure of that.

Obviously we can't be sure of it in this situation. But we have a good hint in that Faith dusted Trick instead of just running off and letting him kill Buffy. If Buffy were dead than Faith would have had it all. Faith was easily swayed - she had no internal compass. She took care of herself because she never had anyone take care of her. Once she was with the mayor, she was totally with the mayor. Before that there are plenty of indications that Faith could be reached. If Angel hadn't been interrupted, I suspect tht would have been huge.

Here's the ting - the B-verse is all about the healing presence of friends, and about found families. I find it bewildering that this is what works for everyone but Faith because she is irrevocably evil and can't be changed.


If Joyce had invited Faith to live in her house (as I've already seen many people suggesting), would she be grateful, or would she be poison between Buffy and her mother?

Faith couldn't win in this situation. If she got close to Joyce, Buffy would complain about being single, white femaled a lot more.

Just look at Bad Girls. Faith gets blamed for all of Buffy's choices there. Buffy is not a tabula roasa - she broke into the store with Faith, broke glass cases with Faith, stole weapons and assaulted a cop. These were her choices - to play them off on Faith is to say Buffy is completely incapable of free will or so afraid she had to participate.

I've worked with marginalized street kids, and all I can say is there are some wild preconceptions here. Children are born selfish and egotistical - they do need someone to teach them right from wrong. Joss is correct in saying it's a community of friends and found family that sustains a person through those changes. In fact, Faith's arc shows how much one person believing in you and teaching you why the right choice matters is how a street kid makes it beyond the morality they learn.

One reason we have gang issues is a gang is a substitute for all that is missing when there is no family. Loyalty to the gang is the exact same loyalty that Faith showed the mayor. No, gangs are not good - they exist because nature abhors a vacuum.

vampmogs
13-04-18, 08:43 AM
So - what I am getting from everyone is that Faith was pure evil before she ever showed up. There was no way that anyone could have changed that.

No. What I'm saying is that Faith's past obviously contributed to her issues and that Buffy's secrecy, Giles' neglect, and Post's manipulation did play a part in Faith's downfall, but ultimately that the extremes that Faith went to are abnormal and unjustifiable. There's a lot of people with childhoods as bad as Faiths (and some worse) but they don't go around murdering and torturing innocent people. There's also a lot of people who are social outcasts or face rejection that don't resort to murdering people out or jealousy of resentment. I think you're seriously downplaying the severity of Faith's crimes by suggesting that, essentially, if people had been nicer to her than she'd never have done the things that she did because the things that she did are not a normal response to people not being nice to her.

I don't think Faith was "inherently" evil because I don't think she was born evil. I don't think it's an inherent trait passed onto her. But there is something incredibly dark about her that her response to feeling rejection is to commit the awful crimes that she did. I also think you're failing to take into consideration that in Consequences Angel states that a part of the reason Faith turns murderous is because she got a taste of what it was like to snuff out of a human life and craved that power. Whether or not you choose to believe Angel is up to you but the text certainly raises the possibility that a part of the reason Faith turns evil has nothing to do with how everybody has wronged her.


Being raised without any knowledge of her own moral compass is not an excuse doing things that are not moral - any idea of right and wrong should have been picked up on by this child from the streets (which it actually was). Morality is easy to understand without any instructions and should not require a caring parent or an adult in a child's life.

Since when was Faith raised without knowledge of a moral compass? Since when didn't Faith know the difference between right or wrong? None of this has ever been stated in the text.


Also trauma is not an excuse for doing destructive things (unless you are Buffy, Xander or Willow in season 6). Real friendship has no power and can't pull you back from the brink (once again unless you are Buffy, Xander or Willow in season 6)

It's not an excuse, it's a reason. Besides, the vast majority of the characters behaviour in S6 were self-destructive. Buffy's depression didn't cause her to team up with a Big Bad, kill an innocent old man, unleash the worst vampire on record onto Sunnydale, and attempt to torture somebody. Willow is the one who does turn murderous and her grief absolutely is NOT an excuse for what she did. Nobody is saying it is.

Furthermore, Faith rejected friendship when it was offered to her. Buffy tried to help her in Consequences and Faith repaid her by going to the Mayor. Faith openly mocks Willow in Choices when she thinks she's going to tell her that it's not too late and that they can help her. Faith again mocks Wesley and Cordelia for the very same thing in Five By Five. You're painting Faith as this poor, rejected victim when the truth of the matter is that she was given plenty of opportunities to change and to be accepted and she rejected them.


Just look at Bad Girls. Faith gets blamed for all of Buffy's choices there. Buffy is not a tabula roasa - she broke into the store with Faith, broke glass cases with Faith, stole weapons and assaulted a cop. These were her choices - to play them off on Faith is to say Buffy is completely incapable of free will or so afraid she had to participate.

They were Buffy's choices but they weren't Buffy's choices until she started socialising with someone who encouraged her to behave badly. To say that Faith was being a bad influence on Buffy isn't unfair, it's explicitly shown throughout the episode.

bespangled
13-04-18, 10:16 AM
No. What I'm saying is that Faith's past obviously contributed to her issues and that Buffy's secrecy, Giles' neglect, and Post's manipulation did play a part in Faith's downfall, but ultimately that the extremes that Faith went to are abnormal and unjustifiable. There's a lot of people with childhoods as bad as Faiths (and some worse) but they don't go around murdering and torturing innocent people. There's also a lot of people who are social outcasts or face rejection that don't resort to murdering people out or jealousy of resentment. I think you're seriously downplaying the severity of Faith's crimes by suggesting that, essentially, if people had been nicer to her than she'd never have done the things that she did because the things that she did are not a normal response to people not being nice to her.

You'd be surprised how much I agree with you on that. Yes, the vast majority of abuse victims do not act out like that. I'm not saying anything she did was right. In fact, I've repeated it. But there was a tipping point. I am talking about before the tipping point. She went down quickly after that. My suggestion is that before the tipping point, had Giles been a better watcher and a more caring person, and had the scoobies been actual friends - maybe this wouldn't have happened. Once she went to the mayor there was no chance, but before that - right up to when Angel tried to help her - she could have been saved. Immediately before Faith went to the Mayor, she saved Buffy's life, so Angel's words apparently had some effect.


I don't think Faith was "inherently" evil because I don't think she was born evil. I don't think it's an inherent trait passed onto her. But there is something incredibly dark about her that her response to feeling rejection is to commit the awful crimes that she did. I also think you're failing to take into consideration that in Consequences Angel states that a part of the reason Faith turns murderous is because she got a taste of what it was like to snuff out of a human life and craved that power. Whether or not you choose to believe Angel is up to you but the text certainly raises the possibility that a part of the reason Faith turns evil has nothing to do with how everybody has wronged her.


And after Angel says this about her, she saves Buffy. Yes, there is darkness but there is also good. If you grow up in a situation where you are loved, that's what you expect out of life. If you grow up in a situation where people use you, you learn how to game the system. If you grow up with predators, you learn not to trust. Yes, there is a darkness in her, and we agree it is not innate. It's learned. I would say it's rage from severe trauma, as well as pain. But both Faith and Buffy have trouble expressing their pain.

Buffy had to kill Angel - but it was quick. Imagine how she would feel if she saw Giles torn apart - if there was no word for what they did to him while he was still alive. We saw her at the end of Passion and that's not a tenth of what Faith was put through. Putting a stake through Kakistos was a small step. Again - lets make this Buffy. She saw Giles ripped apart, she fought back, was injured but managed to injure the torturer, had to flee, then managed to kill the demon Would that make everything all better - or would it be the start of grieving? Yeah - darkness. Not innate.

Giles knew this had happened. Buffy and the scoobies knew this would happen. No, Faith wasn't entitled to friendship. She didn't deserve it. But again with Buffy - we saw her in Anne. Imagine how much worse it would be. Yeah, she keeps up a good front. Faith got no reason to trust yet, and every reason not to break down. I don't think she actually breaks down until she's in the alley with Angel begging him to kill her.



Since when was Faith raised without knowledge of a moral compass? Since when didn't Faith know the difference between right or wrong? None of this has ever been stated in the text.

Right and wrong are perceived differently in different places. If you took Buffy out of the burbs, and stuck her in the school Faith dropped out of, I suspect her ideas of right and wrong wouldn't match up. Nor would her clothes, and her norms of behavior. Faith fit in there. There's a huge class difference between Faith and the scoobies - and that really does matter in a lot of ways. But that's a discussion for another time.

A soul doesn't come with a guidebook. Angel handed over the original denizens of the Hyperion to a demon he knew would torture them to death. He had to learn, and Buffy was his teacher once he reached that point. Actual immutable right and wrong needs to be taught. Not grabbing things and hurting others needs to be taught. If you have ever taken care of toddlers, you know that. If you have been a teacher you know that. According to the wiki, Faith's watcher was the only stability in her life. Up until she got her watcher she had no one to teach her this, and a lot of people to show the downside of that idea in a predatory world. Her idea of right and wrong is tribal - not immutable. She believes in taking care of herself and her people (whoever they are). That might mean violence against someone else - but it's deserved violence. I am the law.



It's not an excuse, it's a reason. Besides, the vast majority of the characters behaviour in S6 were self-destructive. Buffy's depression didn't cause her to team up with a Big Bad, kill an innocent old man, unleash the worst vampire on record onto Sunnydale, and attempt to torture somebody. Willow is the one who does turn murderous and her grief absolutely is NOT an excuse for what she did. Nobody is saying it is.

Thank you for agreeing with me. Now had Warren tortured Tara to death in front of Willow, would things have been better? Would she have gotten over it the moment she killed Warren. Willow went dark. Faith has darkness in her for much the same reason.


Furthermore, Faith rejected friendship when it was offered to her. Buffy tried to help her in Consequences and Faith repaid her by going to the Mayor. Faith openly mocks Willow in Choices when she thinks she's going to tell her that it's not too late and that they can help her. Faith again mocks Wesley and Cordelia for the very same thing in Five By Five. You're painting Faith as this poor, rejected victim when the truth of the matter is that she was given plenty of opportunities to change and to be accepted and she rejected them.

I wouldn't say Faith rejected friendship. I'd say Faith was given the offer of friendship with strings attached, and the constant issues which we understand gave her reason to be wary. She tried several times as well, and then got shot down. Faith had no idea what was going on, she had no context. Willow was worried that Buffy would no longer want to be her friend. She was pretty openly jealous. Xander objectified her sexually from the start. Giles ignored her, other than offering her the chance to train with Buffy. Buffy gave her whiplash - yes we are friends...oops.

Opportunity to change in what way? That's kind of important. Up until she tried to she accidentally killed the mayor's aid, how did she need to change. That's kind of a key - because if friendship is offered on the condition of change then it isn't friendship being offered. Strings are being offered with the promise of possible eventual friendship. There's an awful lot of class bias in what most people say she should have changed.



They were Buffy's choices but they weren't Buffy's choices until she started socialising with someone who encouraged her to behave badly. To say that Faith was being a bad influence on Buffy isn't unfair, it's explicitly shown throughout the episode.

Yup, I've had so many mothers of gently raised suburban kids complain about the bad influence of a kid from a different background. Buffy is our kid, so we want to blame Faith and exonerate Buffy. Where does it say Faith was in the habit of breaking into stores and stealing. Could it be she was showing off? That the two of them kinda egged each other on? That it was an adventure, but it turned sour?

vampmogs
13-04-18, 11:08 AM
My suggestion is that before the tipping point, had Giles been a better watcher and a more caring person, and had the scoobies been actual friends - maybe this wouldn't have happened.

I think it is justifiable to hold Giles accountable because Giles actually had an official responsibility to watch Faith and was paid handsomely for it. Faith was his responsibility and his charge and that's not an opinion but an actual established fact. But I continue to take issue with how you continue to frame the Scoobies role or responsibility in all this. You pay lip service to the fact that "nobody is entitled to friendship" but then you keep mentioning that if the Scoobies had been "actual" friends (a judgement for sure) that maybe Faith wouldn't have turned into the murderer that she did. That's placing at least some of the blame on the Scoobies for how Faith turned out and that's just fundamentally wrong IMO. As you say, Faith wasn't entitled to friendship and the Scoobies didn't owe her anything, the same way Tucker's crush didn't owe him a date to the Bronze, or Katrina didn't owe Warren to stay with him, and the same way you argue that Buffy is ultimately responsible for her actions in Bad Girls, Faith was responsible for actions in S3.

I also disagree with you that the Scoobies were the awful friends you paint them as being. You also fail to acknowledge how dismissive and uninterested Faith was in them. The only person Faith sought to have a meaningful relationship with was Buffy. She's so dismissive of Xander in Revelations that she swats him across the room like a bug, she kicks him out of her room in The Zeppo instead of spending time with him, she doesn't even acknowledge their existence when coming to the classroom window in Bad Girls and then gives them a "You're such losers" scowl when they react with shock at Buffy ditching her test, she's completely unfriendly and cold to Willow when walking into Buffy's room later in the episode, and then in Consequences she rejects Xander's offer to be her friend and nearly strangles him to death. In Consequences she referred to the Scoobies as Xander's "geek pals" and in Enemies she calls them Buffy's "lame ass friends." It's quite apparent that Faith looked down on Willow and Xander as lame and nerds and had little patience or interest in them.

And this is aside from the fact that Faith shrugged off a lot of her responsibilities, including going on "unannounced walkabouts", which suggests an a lack of commitment to her role or the Scoobies.


Immediately before Faith went to the Mayor, she saved Buffy's life, so Angel's words apparently had some effect.

And immediately after saving Buffy she went to the Mayor and double-crossed her. And then an episode later, although initially uncomfortable with it, didn't life a finger to stop his plan to have his vamp henchmen murder Willow.


Again - lets make this Buffy. She saw Giles ripped apart, she fought back, was injured but managed to injure the torturer, had to flee, then managed to kill the demon Would that make everything all better - or would it be the start of grieving? Yeah - darkness. Not innate.

Buffy went through enough trauma (including watching her own first Watcher die, remember) and didn't resort to the things that Faith did. I'm not downplaying what Faith went through but it's not an excuse.


Yeah, she keeps up a good front.

Which makes her largely to blame for how people perceive her. If she wants people to recognise her trauma then it's on her not to make it so convincing that she's doing fine. The Scoobies were a group of teenagers, not trained professionals.


I wouldn't say Faith rejected friendship.

She blatantly did on multiple occasions.


Opportunity to change in what way? That's kind of important. Up until she tried to she accidentally killed the mayor's aid, how did she need to change.

Up until killing the Mayor nobody ever said she did. I was obviously referring to the Scoobies giving her the chance to, ya know, not kill people and stop what she was doing. There's no "class bias" in that - there's just morality.


Where does it say Faith was in the habit of breaking into stores and stealing. Could it be she was showing off? That the two of them kinda egged each other on?

No because Faith went back to the store on her own and robbed it again the next night. Remember?

bespangled
13-04-18, 12:25 PM
I think it is justifiable to hold Giles accountable because Giles actually had an official responsibility to watch Faith and was paid handsomely for it. Faith was his responsibility and his charge and that's not an opinion but an actual established fact. But I continue to take issue with how you continue to frame the Scoobies role or responsibility in all this. You pay lip service to the fact that "nobody is entitled to friendship" but then you keep mentioning that if the Scoobies had been "actual" friends (a judgement for sure) that maybe Faith wouldn't have turned into the murderer that she did. That's placing at least some of the blame on the Scoobies for how Faith turned out and that's just fundamentally wrong IMO. As you say, Faith wasn't entitled to friendship and the Scoobies didn't owe her anything, the same way Tucker's crush didn't owe him a date to the Bronze, or Katrina didn't owe Warren to stay with him, and the same way you argue that Buffy is ultimately responsible for her actions in Bad Girls, Faith was responsible for actions in S3.;718539

You know - Tucker wasn't a trauma victim. Tucker wasn't even really a character in fact. He was a message that walked. He never rescued any scoobies - killed any demons - or showed any potential for good. There really isn't anyone like Faith, because she clearly had the potential for good when she arrived - but I'd say Jonathon comes closest.

I believe I have repeatedly said Faith's choices are her responsibility every single time I have written on this thread. No, the scoobies didn't have to offer friendship. This is kinda back to what would we have wanted for Buffy in this situation. Not that Buffy would go bad - just that Buffy is someone we care about. I care about Faith pretty much the same way Angel does. I like her arc - it hits home for me. It's a rare look into someone who does not come from suburbia with suburban issues like a mother who cares enough to move to a new town so you can get a fresh start.

Faith has an alcoholic mother who doesn't notice or care if she comes home. She lives in South Boston which is a very high crime inner city area. And if you consider paying minor for sex as sexual abuse - whether it's cash or protection, she has a history of being victimized sexually. These aren't scooby problems.



I also disagree with you that the Scoobies were the awful friends you paint them as being. You also fail to acknowledge how dismissive and uninterested Faith was in them. The only person Faith sought to have a meaningful relationship with was Buffy. She's so dismissive of Xander in Revelations that she swats him across the room like a bug, she kicks him out of her room in The Zeppo instead of spending time with him, she doesn't even acknowledge their existence when coming to the classroom window in Bad Girls and then gives them a "You're such losers" scowl when they react with shock at Buffy ditching her test, she's completely unfriendly and cold to Willow when walking into Buffy's room later in the episode, and then in Consequences she rejects Xander's offer to be her friend and nearly strangles him to death. In Consequences she referred to the Scoobies as Xander's "geek pals" and in Enemies she calls them Buffy's "lame ass friends." It's quite apparent that Faith looked down on Willow and Xander as lame and nerds and had little patience or interest in them.

Not gonna bother with a list of the things the scoobies did to her. We've been over this. I respect that you interpret these scenes this way. But I think you are cherry picking stuff to support an argument. I don't want to do the same thing.


And this is aside from the fact that Faith shrugged off a lot of her responsibilities, including going on "unannounced walkabouts", which suggests an a lack of commitment to her role or the Scoobies.

Yeah - Giles was such a good watcher for her. I kinda figure that since Faith loved to slay her version of walkabout included killing demons. That was her role. Giles had already let her know that he had a slayer, and her name was Buffy.

And I never said she had any commitment to the scoobies - I said she saw no reason to trust them. Your argument is that Faith isn't entitled to friendship. I think there may be a connection between these two.


And immediately after saving Buffy she went to the Mayor and double-crossed her. And then an episode later, although initially uncomfortable with it, didn't life a finger to stop his plan to have his vamp henchmen murder Willow.

And I have also said once she went to the mayor, she was lost. Faith is tribal in her loyalties. Her sense of right and wrong is not absolute.



Buffy went through enough trauma (including watching her own first Watcher die, remember) and didn't resort to the things that Faith did. I'm not downplaying what Faith went through but it's not an excuse.

I am not excusing - once again. I am giving context. How many time do I have to repeat it? It's like Spike with the AR - I can offer context without excusing it. No, Buffy isn't at all like Faith in this regard. She gets self destructive and implodes - she doesn't explode. She also has a strong moral core from being raised by a mother who taught her absolute right from wrong.

But Buffy hasn't faced a trauma like this - she has prevented traumas like these. The movie is not canon for the show, but even then Merrick committed suicide. He wasn't tortured to death in front of Buffy like Faith's watcher.



Which makes her largely to blame for how people perceive her. If she wants people to recognize her trauma then it's on her not to make it so convincing that she's doing fine. The Scoobies were a group of teenagers, not trained professionals.

Yup - which explains the crap they inflicted on each other. You don't have to be a trained professional to be a friend.




Up until killing the Mayor nobody ever said she did. I was obviously referring to the Scoobies giving her the chance to, ya know, not kill people and stop what she was doing. There's no "class bias" in that - there's just morality.

I think we covered morality - tribal versus absolute, and the factors that create each. After going over to the mayor it's obvious the changes Faith needed to make. Not killing people and supporting a potential mass murderer would have been good. That's tribal morality at it's best - I support the strong guy who can help me take care of myself, and in return I give absolute loyalty. That's probably the most common form of morality there is in the world.

You said - The truth of the matter is that she was given plenty of opportunities to change and to be accepted and she rejected them. The general complaint is that Faith would have been acceptable if she had gone back to school and learned to fit in. The way people behave in the suburbs is the way people need to behave, and all children need to learn this in order to be successful. Faith insisted on being Faith - and that was what the problem was. I don't know what you really mean about opportunities to change and be accepted, but I don't think you were referring to late in the seasons when Faith was already with the mayor.



No because Faith went back to the store on her own and robbed it again the next night. Remember?

No, I don't remember. Just read over the script to Consequences and didn't see it.

You see, the thing is that there are all sorts of reason why Faith shouldn't have done what she did which we agree on - but thre is not any acceptable context for her choices. What she did is absolutely wrong.

OTH,. there's also all sorts of support for Buffy gutting Faith because she wanted revenge and she wanted to use Faith's blood. We allow context here. In fact, it seems plenty of people cheer Buffy on. She is part of our tribe, after all.

Again there is the matter of tribal morality. Absolute morality is that what Buffy did to Faith is easily as bad or worse than anything Faith dd to Buffy. Tribal morality s that Faith is disposable because she did bad things to...well,our tribe. When this is our metric, we are using Faith's moral code which is the opposite of the absolute code used in the rest of the show.

vampmogs
13-04-18, 01:59 PM
I'm going to try and keep this brief because I think we're just going in circles...



I believe I have repeatedly said Faith's choices are her responsibility every single time I have written on this thread.

You have but then every other comment seems to slowly creep back to "Well if [character A] had treat Faith better than Faith probably wouldn't have done that" etc which ultimately makes it seem like you are in fact blaming them.


Faith has an alcoholic mother who doesn't notice or care if she comes home. She lives in South Boston which is a very high crime inner city area. And if you consider paying minor for sex as sexual abuse - whether it's cash or protection, she has a history of being victimized sexually. These aren't scooby problems.

Ummm Xander had alcoholic parents who don't even recognise his voice on the phone or care if he was coming at night (Surprise), who tried to pass him off to another family once (Inca Mummy Girl), who's drunken fights were so bad he had to sleep outside on Christmas Eve, and his father was heavily implied to be abusive (Restless/Hells Bells). Xander's also a Scooby.


Not gonna bother with a list of the things the scoobies did to her. We've been over this. I respect that you interpret these scenes this way. But I think you are cherry picking stuff to support an argument. I don't want to do the same thing.

I'm drawing a blank at what Faith did to befriend the Scoobies. Honestly? Other than obviously being upset that she wasn't invited to the Scooby meeting in Revelations I can't think of a single other moment where Faith showed much interest in Xander and Willow other than their friendly rapport in Faith, Hope & Trick which was very much reciprocated at the time. Faith calling the gang "geeks" or "lame" (which she has reiterated more than once) is pretty much exactly how I would think someone like Faith would view Xander and Willow as teenagers.


Yeah - Giles was such a good watcher for her. I kinda figure that since Faith loved to slay her version of walkabout included killing demons.

I really don't, to be honest. Faith never past up the opportunity to slay but I think her walkabouts definitely involved her flaking on her responsibilities. When Giles says that "Faith isn't interested in proper training" I think he's pretty much right but I also think, as her Watcher and as her authoritarian figure, he should have demanded it the way he demanded it of Buffy. Still, part of the responsibility is on Faith and I have always seen Faith (at this point in the story anyway) as being pretty flighty and unreliable. They contrast her irresponsibility in comparison to Buffy in Who Are You, after all - "I'll patrol tonight. Don't worry, I'll be about there doing my job" (Cut to Faith partying at The Bronze).


And I never said she had any commitment to the scoobies - I said she saw no reason to trust them.

She had no reason to distrust them either, based on their actions alone. Buffy, maybe, but she seemed to at least get over that by mid-S3, but the Scoobies as a whole? No.


I am not excusing - once again. I am giving context.

Because the context you're trying to give it doesn't make any sense to me. People don't resort to torture and murder because of the things you have accused the Scoobies of doing to Faith. There's a gap here you're not acknowledging. Faith knows right from wrong. She knows it's wrong to kill people or torture them.


But Buffy hasn't faced a trauma like this - she has prevented traumas like these.

Buffy has experience plenty of trauma like that. She's died twice and had to dig out of her own grave (one of her worst nightmares as shown in Nightmares) for crying out loud.


The general complaint is that Faith would have been acceptable if she had gone back to school and learned to fit in.

In all my years of fandom (and I've literally watched this show since the first day it aired and have been in fandom since 2003-ish) I don't think I have ever, and I mean ever, seen one single person complain that Faith should have went back to school. Honestly, like, never.


I don't know what you really mean about opportunities to change and be accepted, but I don't think you were referring to late in the seasons when Faith was already with the mayor.

Of course I was. I explicitly gave you 3 examples of when Faith had already been with the Mayor or literally in the same episode she joins up with the Mayor - when Buffy gave her a second chance after Faith tried to frame her for Finch's murder, when Xander went to her hotel room and offered to be her friend and support her after the attempted frame job, and when Wesley tried to reach out to her at Cordy's apartment. Even in This Years Girl Buffy tells her it "doesn't have to be like this."


No, I don't remember. Just read over the script to Consequences and didn't see it.

It's in Bad Girls;

BUFFY
I can't believe you went back for that thing (the long bow)

Faith went back to the sport's store and robbed the long bow on her own.


You see, the thing is that there are all sorts of reason why Faith shouldn't have done what she did which we agree on - but thre is not any acceptable context for her choices. What she did is absolutely wrong.

What I'm (and I think others are saying) is that there's a gap in the issues you're talking about and what leads Faith down such a dark path. Yes, a lot of what you talk about it does provide context, and if it was a simple as explaining why Faith initially teams up with The Mayor then I'd mostly agree with you (although I do think you're greatly exaggerating how bad the Scoobies were to her and downplaying the lack of interest she had in actually befriending them) but none of your explanation explains the sadism that Faith exhibits in S3. It doesn't explain away the sadistic pleasure she got out of getting to torture Buffy or to cause Angel an agonising death and see Buffy mourn him. Joining up with the Mayor is one thing, finding pleasure in killing is another innocent people or hurting people you know is another.

bespangled
13-04-18, 10:54 PM
Here's my problem with this - and I agree we are going in circles. I am talking about Faith. You are deflecting. What you don't want to talk about is Faith, and what could have been because to you this is a betrayal of the scoobies. We are coming at this from two different mindsets.



Faith has an alcoholic mother who doesn't notice or care if she comes home. She lives in South Boston which is a very high crime inner city area. And if you consider paying minor for sex as sexual abuse - whether it's cash or protection, she has a history of being victimized sexually. These aren't scooby problems.


Ummm Xander had alcoholic parents who don't even recognise his voice on the phone or care if he was coming at night (Surprise), who tried to pass him off to another family once (Inca Mummy Girl), who's drunken fights were so bad he had to sleep outside on Christmas Eve, and his father was heavily implied to be abusive (Restless/Hells Bells). Xander's also a Scooby.

I am asking you to put yourself in the mind of Faith from South Boston who grew up in a completely different place and under harsh circumstances.

You are telling me Xander had a rough time and he didn't do what Faith did. That's a deflection.

I am trying to examine who Faith is, and why she went bad, and you are proclaiming the fact that none of the scoobies ever went bad so there is no excuse for Faith. We are talking about completely different things.

Yes, Buffy has been through the trauma digging herself out of her own grave - but that happened several years later, and it resulted in a destructive downward spiral. I know we agree on that. When I try to suggest Faith is going through a spiral of her own due to trauma and needed help she didn't get (kinda the entire plot of season 6 for Buffy), you defend the scoobies. I am not attacking them.

My OP was about Giles and Faith, and what might have happened if he had done his job in regard to her. What I am explaining is as simple as why Faith went to the mayor - that's why I called it the tipping point. My initial statement was - I really can understand why Faith switched sides.I don't agree with some of the choices she made, but she clearly is not evil by nature. She's opportunistic.

She's opportunistic because she knows she is on her own and always has been. That's why she went to the mayor when things were clearly not gonna work with Giles et al. Her morality is tribal - right is what benefits you and yours, wrong is what hurts you. I'm stating this, not supporting it. She is traumatized and filled with rage - I already said that After going over to the mayor it's obvious the changes Faith needed to make. Not killing people and supporting a potential mass murderer would have been good. The trauma and the tribalism is a large part of what you call the sadistic pleasure Faith shows. Since we agree it's not innate - and you have no other reason - I am not sure what you want beyond this.

I am not minimizing or excusing what she did. I am simply asking if things had been different, would Faith have been different. Could Giles and Buffy have become her tribe? Could she have learned absolute morality? What would have been needed?

And I am refusing to give Buffy a pass on attempting to kill Faith and then feed her to Angel. I am not excusing her either. I understand why she did it - it's her first step on the path that will eventually have her echoing Faith and declaring "I am the law."

vampmogs
13-04-18, 11:17 PM
Here's my problem with this - and I agree we are going in circles. I am talking about Faith. You are deflecting.

No, I'm not. You stated;


Faith has an alcoholic mother who doesn't notice or care if she comes home. She lives in South Boston which is a very high crime inner city area. And if you consider paying minor for sex as sexual abuse - whether it's cash or protection, she has a history of being victimized sexually. These aren't scooby problems.

You were clearly implying that although the Scoobies have issues they don't have issues as bad as Faiths. You made the comparison. I simply responded to your comparison and pointed out that you're actually incorrect and that at least one Scooby, Xander, actually did have very similar problems to Faith. You also compared her to Buffy earlier and said that Buffy never went through the kind of trauma that Faith did by witnessing her Watcher die. You have also repeatedly compared her to Buffy's "suburban" life in attempt to highlight how much worse Faith has had it. So, no, I'm not deflecting by talking about the Scoobies because you keep bringing them up in an attempt to prop Faith up.


I am asking you to put yourself in the mind of Faith from South Boston who grew up in a completely different place and under harsh circumstances.

You are telling me Xander had a rough time and he didn't do what Faith did. That's a deflection.

If you don't want to talk about the Scoobies then probably don't constantly compare them to Faith. By doing so you invite people to discuss them, especially if they disagree with your opinions of them, which I do.

bespangled
14-04-18, 01:06 AM
This is getting ridiculous. I would have enjoyed and intelligent discussion - but I really am tired of a tit for tat pissing match. My bad. I am evidently not able to communicate what I am trying to say as well as I had hoped.

vampmogs
14-04-18, 02:32 AM
You’ve made this more of a tit for tat pissing match than anybody else here. Don’t lecture people on their posting habits and tell people what they “really” want to discuss, or accuse them of derailing discussions, if you don’t want the same turned back on you. You have brought the Scoobies up repeatedly in this discussion and have repeatedly compared their problems to Faith’s (unfavourably I might add) so you’ve got no right to accuse others of derailing because they choose to address this.

bespangled
14-04-18, 02:51 AM
You’ve made this more of a tit for tat pissing match than anybody else here. Don’t lecture people on their posting habits and tell people what they “really” want to discuss, or accuse them of derailing discussions, if you don’t want the same turned back on you. You have brought the Scoobies up repeatedly in this discussion and have repeatedly compared their problems to Faith’s (unfavourably I might add) so you’ve got no right to accuse others of derailing because they choose to address this.

Thanks for the feedback.

I really did mean it when I said that I am evidently not able to communicate what I am trying to say as well as I had hoped. I think you are hearing things I don't mean to say - and that's my inability to communicate it to you. Maybe after we know each other better we won't get this frustrated.

I don't want bad feelings either. okay? We cool?:tea: