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View Full Version : Scenes you wish had seen in screen.



GoSpuffy
10-04-18, 03:04 AM
A lot of things are referenced in conversation or seemed to have happened but haven't been seen on screen. What would you have liked to have seen? To start us off I would have liked to have seen Giles and Spike watching Passions. I would have also liked to have seen Buffy telling Spike about the time Faith was in her body and Spike figuring out it wasn't Buffy who wanted to pop him like warm Champagne.

Stoney
10-04-18, 04:15 AM
Oh, it's so cliched as a Spuffy wish, but I would have liked to have seen Buffy finding out Spike was alive post Chosen (going with the kicking down doors in response reference Joss put into Lynch's Spike 8). But sadly we were already missing seeing things 'on screen' by then. It would have been interesting to see Buffy's reaction to finding out about Connor.

Lostsoul666
10-04-18, 05:07 AM
Angel telling the other members of Team Angel that Cordy died. It would have been nice to see their reactions.

bespangled
10-04-18, 05:41 AM
Spike and Angel - that one... At bit more between them like the end of Why We Fight.

Some sort of reconciliation at the end of season 7

Sosa lola
10-04-18, 12:38 PM
Comic related - I would have liked to have seen one of Xander and Dr. Mike's therapy sessions in S10.

a thing of evil
10-04-18, 03:54 PM
Willow's and Tara's duet about dish washing, mentioned in Once More, with Feeling.

GoSpuffy
10-04-18, 06:16 PM
Buffy and Spike eating an onion blossom thing. Or Andrew and Spike cooking one.

MikeB
11-04-18, 12:14 AM
There's around zero indication Buffy knows about Connor.



- I remember Juliet Landau had a No Nudity Clause and a No Sex Scene clause. While I would have liked to see Spike/Dru sex scenes, I wouldn't want JL doing something she didn't want to do.


- The ending scene of "Smashed" (B 6.09) is really the only Buffy/Spike sex scene and they are both completely covered including their arms. The next closest is the censored Under the Rug Scene. So, a true sex scene where they both are naked. The most graphic and explicit scenes on BtVS are Buffy/Riley scenes.


- Buffy/Spike kissing in BtVS S7. Buffy/Spike sex scenes in BtVS S7.


- A Spike/Willow scene. Spike was into Willow. A dream scene or 'daydream' scene.


- What Spike did after getting his soul until he arrived in Sunnydale.


- A Buffy/Faith make out scene and sex scene. We know Faith likely thought about it. It may have actually happened.


- A scene between Willow and her father. We know almost nothing about him.


- A scene of William's childhood.


- A scene of William's father. We don't know who or what he was.


- A scene showing where Spike puts his money.


- A scene showing what Angel was doing from the flashback in "Becoming Part I" (B 2.21) to when he shows up to meet Buffy in "Welcome to the Hellmouth" (B 1.01).


- Flashbacks to Buffy's Slayer time at Hemery High School.


- A Buffy/Spike/Faith sex scene. Spike likely thought about it.


- A Drusilla/Spike/Buffy scene. Likely what Spike ultimately wants.


- Pre-8.49, a Spike/Buffy/Angel scene. Likely what Buffy in BtVS S7 ultimately wants.


- A conversation between Buffy and Spike regarding why Buffy wouldn't want to become an ensouled vampire. Buffy was still good in "Nightmares" (B 1.10).


- Buffy's reasoning for not contacting Spike after finding out he's alive.

HardlyThere
11-04-18, 12:52 AM
I thought this thread was about scenes that canonically exist as they are referenced in the show(s), not headcanons and fanfic.

Stoney
11-04-18, 01:48 AM
I thought this thread was about scenes that canonically exist as they are referenced in the show(s), not headcanons and fanfic.

Agreed. I realised after I put Buffy finding out about Connor that I'm not sure Angel's son is actually referenced directly to her or with reference to her at any point. But as Willow arrives in AtS 4 and knows about Connor ("Yes. Hi. You must be Angel's handsome, yet androgynous, son." - Orpheus), I don't think it's unrealistic to assume that the Sunnydale group have been somewhat informed about Connor. :noidea:

HardlyThere
11-04-18, 02:41 AM
It's one of those things that is inferred but at the same time doesn't have a plausible timetable.

When would this conversation take place? It couldn't have been at the meeting in S6. It doesn't seem like they interacted enough to call in the SD gang to find Angel when he was in the ocean. I think it's plausible Fred filled Willow in on the phone. Whether not everyone else knows is another question.

Stoney
11-04-18, 02:52 AM
It's one of those things that is inferred but at the same time doesn't have a plausible timetable.

When would this conversation take place? It couldn't have been at the meeting in S6. It doesn't seem like they interacted enough to call in the SD gang to find Angel when he was in the ocean. I think it's plausible Fred filled Willow in on the phone. Whether not everyone else knows is another question.

Yes, who knows when it would happen. Willow could have told Buffy on her return (assuming she learned about Connor on the way to LA and the Sunnydale group hadn't already heard about him sooner), or she could have chosen to not mention it at all. I think it goes into the pile of things we assume has happened off screen. As I said, I don't think Connor is referenced around Buffy, so I shouldn't have included it in the context of this thread (though I would still like to see it :p).

I'm going to add another that we do know happened, Buffy/Angel's meet up when she is resurrected.

bespangled
11-04-18, 03:42 AM
I've said this one before. I want one scene where qwe see Xander's parents at their worst with Xander in the room. Xander leaves and goes to where the others are and hunches a bit and makes bad jokes. I'd like it if the scene was early on. That alone would have given so much more depth to Xander.

Rebcake
11-04-18, 07:40 AM
I'd like to see the point at which Xander decides to stop being adversarial to Spike. It happens sometime before/during "Him", but we never see explicitly what made him change his mind, or at least change his approach.

vampmogs
11-04-18, 09:19 AM
I'm sticking strictly to events/things that we were told happened but that we didn't see;

- Buffy opening up to Riley. In Out of My Mind she says that she has opened up to Riley in ways she hasn't opened up to anybody and I was always interested to know what she meant by this. What did she confide in him etc?

- Buffy and Angel's reunion in S6 after her resurrection. I always thought that it was likely that the reason both of them were so cagey about what happened was because Buffy had confided in Angel about heaven. Nevertheless, I've always wanted to know if they acted intimately or platonically towards each other, what they discussed, how long they were together for etc.

- Xander and Willow watching a Charlie Brown Christmas every year. Yes, we saw the Snoopy Dance, but I'd have loved a scene of them watching the Special together

- Buffy burning down the gym at Hemery High

- The day Buffy, Xander, Willow, Cordy and Oz spent at the pier together as seen in the photos Cordy had in her locker

- Giles and Spike watching Passions together. Was it at Giles' apartment or Spike's crypt? etc

- Xander and Anya spanking each other

- Willow and Oz's date night at the movies

SpuffyGlitz
11-04-18, 12:26 PM
SPUFFY

- behind the scenes kissing (and sex?) scenes in S7 between Spike and Buffy

- what happened offscreen in Smashed from the time we saw them to the next morning

- Behind the scenes of Spike sketching/drawing Buffy - and the rest of the assorted photos kept in his shrine - ALL the offscreen moments leading up to that shrine.

- Buffy telling Spike about the body swap (without mentioning Faith) and his reaction


GENERAL

- Buffy's early childhood and her time with her mom and dad

- Buffy at her previous high school

- Behind the scenes of Wood when he was "researching" Buffy - if only just to clear up the confusion about why on earth he'd pretend to think she was Dawn's mom when he knew all about her

- All the details about the "Doctor" - who he really was and what happened offscreen there

- I'm sure there are more - but these are all for now.

Great idea for a thread :p

HardlyThere
11-04-18, 12:35 PM
SPUFFY

- Behind the scenes of Spike sketching/drawing Buffy - and the rest of the assorted photos kept in his shrine - ALL the offscreen moments leading up to that shrine.


We do see a lot of those, don't we? He's stealing pictures in Listening to Fear. He gets the mannequin in Replacement.

SpuffyGlitz
11-04-18, 12:45 PM
Lol, I meant - see him actually sketching her. I didn't know Spike could draw. It would have been funny to watch him set about it.

HardlyThere
11-04-18, 12:58 PM
Insert tumblr argument over whether or not Spike drew them or they're Angelus leftovers.

Silver1
11-04-18, 03:09 PM
There Angel's left overs going by the style. :lol:

Fool for Buffy
11-04-18, 03:28 PM
SPUFFY

- behind the scenes kissing (and sex?) scenes in S7 between Spike and Buffy

- what happened offscreen in Smashed from the time we saw them to the next morning

-


- Behind the scenes of Wood when he was "researching" Buffy - if only just to clear up the confusion about why on earth he'd pretend to think she was Dawn's mom when he knew all about her




I don’t think there were or should have been kissing or sex scenes in season 7. It makes the Touched scene and the I Love You more meaningful if they didn’t sleep together in my opinion. Plus they have to be consistent with the season 6 contrast.

As for Smashed- I agree, honestly the fact that all we got was 2 minutes and a morning after is flat out disgraceful.

I’ve expressed my “concerns” with Wood before, so I think you’re right about his confusing behavior, to say the least.

I’ll add my own- I wish we would have seen more scenes between Willow and Spike, especially season 7. They had an interesting dynamic in their couple scenes in seasons 3 and 4, and I feel like they could have learned some things and helped each other in season 7. Willow certainly never expressed as much hate for Spike like Xander and Giles.

MikeB
11-04-18, 03:55 PM
GoSpuffy

* I consider it’s great for ambiguity that we don’t know when Buffy told Spike about the body switch. Buffy didn’t tell him Faith was ‘driving Buffy’s body’.

I consider it’s also great for ambiguity that we don’t know if Buffy remembers Spike’s running his finger down her chest in “Superstar” (B 4.17).

____________________________________


Buffy and Spike eating an onion blossom thing. Or Andrew and Spike cooking one. Both didn’t happen.



Stoney

* The problem with the IDW stuff is that we don’t know what is canon from that. If stuff from that is canon, it’s likely Buffy found out Spike is alive by seeing or at least knowing about Twinkle —the Twilight thing that Maria Harley aka Spider made.

That would also make it make sense that Buffy didn’t contact Spike. She sees Spike was ‘with’ someone else rather than go back to Buffy.

____________________________________

* Willow’s been in contact with the Angel group. The Scoobies also didn’t know about Fred and Gunn. Buffy likely only knows of Cordy and Wesley being in the Fang Gang.

If Buffy knew of Connor, she would have mentioned it to Angel in “Chosen” (B 7.22). If anything, Buffy seemed to reason Angel had been celibate post-“Surprise” (B 2.13) and had been ‘holding a torch’ for her the entire time after “Graduation Day Part II” (B 3.22).



Rebcake

* Xander in “Goodbye Iowa” (B 4.14) supported Spike over Riley.

The next time Xander is “adversarial toward Spike” is in “I Was Made to Love You” (B 5.15) and that’s because Xander knows Spike wants to ‘be with’ Buffy.

Xander at the end of “Sleeper” (B 7.08) didn’t want Buffy close to Spike.

Xander sometime post-“Sleeper” (B 7.08)—maybe already in “Never Leave Me” (B 7.09)—simply accepts and even supports Buffy/Spike.

Outside of having been anti-Buffy/Spike and anti-Spike/Anya, “Doomed” (B 4.11) is probably the last time Xander is generally “adversarial toward Spike”.



vampmogs

* Buffy had an actual boyfriend/girlfriend relationship with Riley. She didn’t have that with Angel (they had a romance). That could simply be what Buffy meant by ‘opening herself up to’ Riley more than she had ‘opened up’ to Angel. Buffy also said, “Nobody has ever known me the way you do.” http://offline.buffy.de/www.buffyworld.com/buffy/season5/transcripts/82_tran.shtml


* The Buffy/Angel reunion post-“Flooded” (B 6.04) clearly didn’t go well and Spike in “Life Serial” (B 6.05) is happy with Buffy and certainly doesn’t “smell Angel on her”.

- I’ve always reasoned Spike would have followed Buffy to the ‘Angel meeting’ and that Buffy would assume Spike might follow her.

Angel wouldn’t be happy about Buffy/Angel simply given Angel had to find out from Willow that Buffy’s alive.

Buffy didn’t even seem to once think about Angel post-resurrection until she’s informed that Angel called wanting to see her.

Post-resurrection, the two—perhaps the only two—Buffy wanted to see are Spike and Giles.


- Buffy didn’t tell Giles that she was in heaven. Giles also wasn’t part of the “Willow group”. Why would Buffy tell Angel but not Giles? Why would Buffy tell Angel but not Dawn?

- Buffy in “Once More With Feeling” (B 6.07) was going to become Sweet’s bride in hell. Her interactions with Spike in “OMWF” (his not wanting to love her; his telling her he hopes she dies) led to that decision and Spike’s literally stopping her from becoming Sweet’s bride prevented Buffy’s becoming Sweet’s bride.


It’s unlikely Buffy told Angel about hers being in heaven. If Angel knew, Willow sometime post-“Once More With Feeling” (B 6.07) told him.



SpuffyGlitz

* Heck, ALL Buffy/Spike sex sessions. Though the ambiguity is also nice, all the kink, BDSM, etc. is only implied. The actual sex scenes are tamer than Buffy/Riley scenes. Heck, there isn’t one Buffy/Spike scene of each undressing the other. Buffy/Angel, Buffy/Parker, and Buffy/Riley had that.


- Buffy's early childhood and her time with her mom and dad

- Buffy at her previous high school We kinda saw both. Even my Buffy-as-Slayer is only because I’d prefer to see an on-screen The Origin .


* Wood was ‘negging’ Buffy by pretending he assumed she was Dawn’s mother. Angel also ‘negs’ Buffy upon first meeting her, telling Buffy: Truth is, I thought you'd be taller, or bigger muscles and all that. You're pretty spry, though.” http://offline.buffy.de/www.buffyworld.com/buffy/season1/transcripts/01_tran.shtml


* Spike was the Doctor. The main purpose of that is Spike wanted to know what Buffy still thought of Buffy/Riley. Spike likely knew Riley was married and that Sam Finn would come with Riley.

Given it seems Spike isn’t responsible for the amulet coming to Sunnydale, that means Spike at the time didn’t consider Buffy/Angel a threat to Buffy/Spike.

- Spike got the Judge together and he got the Gem of Amarra. I’ve always found it bizarre that any viewer could reason Spike couldn’t do the demon eggs thing.



HardlyThere

* Spike drew the pictures that he had in the Buffy shrine. If you look at the pictures, they show Sarah Michelle Gellar as she looked post-BtVS S3.



Fool for Buffy

* Post-“Potential” (B 7.12), the only reason Buffy/Spike didn’t have sex is because Spike was forcing a Platonic relationship on Buffy. Even “Beneath You” (B 7.02) through “Neve Leave Me” (B 7.09) is Buffy’s dealing with Spike’s now being ensouled (She was in love with him in BtVS S6 and through most of BtVS S7 until maybe that “Touched” (B 7.20) scene is actually disappointed that Spike is ensouled).

“Storyteller” (B 7.16) greatly implies Buffy/Spike had sex post-“Get it Done” (B 7.15).

“Touched” (B 7.20) is important because Spike tells Buffy he fell in love with BUFFY, not The Slayer.

The “I love you.” is important because it’s the first time Buffy’s told Spike that even though it’s been obvious to Spike since BtVS S6 at-latest.


* Willow’s liking and having a connection with Spike is because he was attracted to her. “Lovers Walk” (B 3.08) and especially “The Initiative” (B 4.07). Without that, it’s unlikely Willow would have been so supportive of Spike in “Pangs” (B 4.08) and after.

Giles was the first who wanted Spike to be a Scooby and was trying to get Spike to want to be a Scooby.

HardlyThere
11-04-18, 04:15 PM
HardlyThere

* Spike drew the pictures that he had in the Buffy shrine. If you look at the pictures, they show Sarah Michelle Gellar as she looked post-BtVS S3.



If you look at the show, sometimes Buffy is played by other people. If you look at the show, Buffy and Willow have tattoos. If you look at the show, the money they use to pay Spike is play money.

Stoney
11-04-18, 04:19 PM
I don’t think there were or should have been kissing or sex scenes in season 7. It makes the Touched scene and the I Love You more meaningful if they didn’t sleep together in my opinion. Plus they have to be consistent with the season 6 contrast.

Very strongly agree.

But either way people like to see it, it isn't something that is referenced and so, by the thread, isn't an unseen scene. :)

Sosa lola
11-04-18, 05:42 PM
Sorry, but I'm gonna Spander things up a bit:

Hush: We didn't get to see the scene where Xander and Spike lose their voices. Why? I mean, after the BD&SM action of the tying Spike up to a chair and the Xander shoving his perfect butt in Spike's face... were they doing something too NC17 for the viewers to watch at the moment their lost their voices? Hmmm

SpuffyGlitz
11-04-18, 08:04 PM
@Mike B


- I’ve always reasoned Spike would have followed Buffy to the ‘Angel meeting’ and that Buffy would assume Spike might follow her.

Followed her? But I don't see how he could have known? At least, I'd prefer to think he didn't know. He's not all that omnipotent :lol:


* Heck, ALL Buffy/Spike sex sessions. Though the ambiguity is also nice, all the kink, BDSM, etc. is only implied. The actual sex scenes are tamer than Buffy/Riley scenes. Heck, there isn’t one Buffy/Spike scene of each undressing the other. Buffy/Angel, Buffy/Parker, and Buffy/Riley had that.

Good point, they actually never shoot Buffy and Spike like that... I wish they had given us a scene like that at least ONCE!


* Spike was the Doctor. The main purpose of that is Spike wanted to know what Buffy still thought of Buffy/Riley. Spike likely knew Riley was married and that Sam Finn would come with Riley.

This is a really interesting take on the whole scenario. Never in a million years would I have thought Spike would try to find out if Buffy still had feelings for Riley and plan this whole scenario as a way of doing that. For one thing, he's not super Machiavellian - even if he tries to be. Moreover, I don't know how he could have known about Riley's being married (especially as he seems to address Riley like he's still after Buffy: "She's not your bint anymore") etc. It's kinda fascinating that he would concoct this elaborate ruse to get Riley there just to see how Buffy reacts...It's a lot to wrap my head around, but I don't mind toying around with the idea. ;)

Mostly I believe he's speaking the mundane truth - he's been holding the eggs for a friend in some deal to make quick money. But by this point Buffy's angry and doesn't want to believe him, and he's hurt and doesn't see the point in trying to convince her.


Given it seems Spike isn’t responsible for the amulet coming to Sunnydale, that means Spike at the time didn’t consider Buffy/Angel a threat to Buffy/Spike.

I didn't quite follow what you meant here.. Do you mean that whenever Spike feels there's a romantic threat, he "sends" Buffy's exes to her on some pretext so as to gauge her reaction to them? That seems a bit farfetched, I don't think Spike has that kind of power, but hey, I like reading creative interpretations :)



* Spike drew the pictures that he had in the Buffy shrine. If you look at the pictures, they show Sarah Michelle Gellar as she looked post-BtVS S3.

I completely agree - I do think Spike drew them. He's romantically obsessed enough to do something like that...I also somehow doubt he could have managed to procure them from Angel, and I don't see Angel sitting down making sketches of Buffy. Plus they do look like a post S3 Buffy, especially the hair.


“Storyteller” (B 7.16) greatly implies Buffy/Spike had sex post-“Get it Done” (B 7.15).

I think I would agree. I definitely feel them not having sex would be romantic in S7 - but at the same time I do believe they kissed/ embraced to some extent - it might have started after Get it Done since it was after Spike got a little of his confidence and strength after Buffy's talk/challenge to him.

@Fool for Buffy


I don’t think there were or should have been kissing or sex scenes in season 7. It makes the Touched scene and the I Love You more meaningful if they didn’t sleep together in my opinion. Plus they have to be consistent with the season 6 contrast.

Agree completely - I think that's what makes Touched such a stand out, beautiful episode for Spuffy. It just stands out as so pure.

bespangled
12-04-18, 05:18 AM
@Spuffy Glitz - * Spike was the Doctor. The main purpose of that is Spike wanted to know what Buffy still thought of Buffy/Riley. Spike likely knew Riley was married and that Sam Finn would come with Riley. Spike got the Judge together and he got the Gem of Amarra. I’ve always found it bizarre that any viewer could reason Spike couldn’t do the demon eggs thing.

It's precisely because Spike did all that that I think he wasn't the Doctor. He could not be a successful international arms dealer, and still not bother to freeze the eggs. He could be a patsy doing a favor for a friend for some money - a friend who realizes that the authorities are on to him.


Given it seems Spike isn’t responsible for the amulet coming to Sunnydale, that means Spike at the time didn’t consider Buffy/Angel a threat to Buffy/Spike.

Spike has good enough hearing that he knew both Angel and Buffy had decided they couldn't risk each other. H was just leaving as they started to talk about that. It makes me feel sad, even though she did name him her champion. He knew he was gonna die - mystical amulet with great power from an unreliable source that Angel doesn't trust Buffy to wear and Buffy can't lose Angel to. Yeah - that's not gonna kill you - and I should put Giles Lit To Me monologue here.


@MikeB If Buffy knew of Connor, she would have mentioned it to Angel in “Chosen” (B 7.22). If anything, Buffy seemed to reason Angel had been celibate post-“Surprise” (B 2.13) and had been ‘holding a torch’ for her the entire time after “Graduation Day Part II” (B 3.22).

Completely. Since we never see any scne that indicates Buffy knew and had to process this, and since part of why Angel left her is he couldn't give her children, this would have to be shown for me to believe it. Of course, Angel had already wiped the minds of anyone who had met Connor, so it's a moot point.


@vampmogs - Buffy in “Once More With Feeling” (B 6.07) was going to become Sweet’s bride in hell. Her interactions with Spike in “OMWF” (his not wanting to love her; his telling her he hopes she dies) led to that decision and Spike’s literally stopping her from becoming Sweet’s bride prevented Buffy’s becoming Sweet’s bride.

Buffy offered to be Sweet's bride, but apparently he could only take whoever made the call. Buffy was going to burn to death, and Spike saved her while everyone else watched in shock.


@Fool For Buffy “Storyteller” (B 7.16) greatly implies Buffy/Spike had sex post-“Get it Done” (B 7.15).

It also implies some sort of sexual tension between Wood and Spike. There was tension - it wasn't sexual (though I did wonder When Wood took off his shirt). Andrew is not a good judge of character or a reliable narrator.


* Willow’s liking and having a connection with Spike is because he was attracted to her. “Lovers Walk” (B 3.08) and especially “The Initiative” (B 4.07). Without that, it’s unlikely Willow would have been so supportive of Spike in “Pangs” (B 4.08) and after.

I would have loved this. Now that Willow is a muderer and Spike has a soul, they really should have had some scenes together.



@Sosa Lola Hush: We didn't get to see the scene where Xander and Spike lose their voices. Why? I mean, after the BD&SM action of the tying Spike up to a chair and the Xander shoving his perfect butt in Spike's face... were they doing something too NC17 for the viewers to watch at the moment their lost their voices? Hmmm

If you can't whisper nasties then what's the point:p

SpuffyGlitz
12-04-18, 10:58 AM
@Bespangeled -
* "Spike was the Doctor. The main purpose of that is Spike wanted to know what Buffy still thought of Buffy/Riley. Spike likely knew Riley was married and that Sam Finn would come with Riley. Spike got the Judge together and he got the Gem of Amarra. I’ve always found it bizarre that any viewer could reason Spike couldn’t do the demon eggs thing."
It's precisely because Spike did all that that I think he wasn't the Doctor. He could not be a successful international arms dealer, and still not bother to freeze the eggs. He could be a patsy doing a favor for a friend for some money - a friend who realizes that the authorities are on to him.

That quote isn't from me though, it's Mike B's. I actually don't think Spike was the doctor, but Mike B offered an interesting reading and I was responding below the quote. :) I still think Spike wasn't capable of being organised or Machiavellian enough to be the Doctor. I think he was speaking the literal truth when he said he was holding them for a friend (for some quick cash), and Buffy was too angry to want to believe him now and he was too hurt to feel the need to convince her further.

Stoney
12-04-18, 11:51 AM
As Joss was personally against Buffy and Spike getting physical again in S7 and wanted it to contrast S6 I seriously don't think it was intentionally suggested they might have gone there again in any episode until the last night when Joss wanted people to have the scope to make up their own minds, even though he made it clear in the commentary he thought it wouldn't have been the way to go. Presumably this is why it isn't written in beyond that scope for ambiguity right at the end. As bespangled points out, Storyteller was Andrew's pov and he can have gotten the wrong impression and had his own headcanon about their relationship regardless of the truth. :biggrin1: Personally, I never believed they did and as I said earlier, like FfB, I really think it works better for them having moved past just the physical. And it shows the AR having a serious impact on them, which I think Joss is correct is the right message for where they are when he is first souled. Unsurprisingly everything that we see between them in S10 and 11 wouldn't make as much sense if they had already slept together again and as it's Joss' story and he doesn't feel they should have, it makes sense the continuation works better with them not having done so in S7. :noidea:

I agree on Spike as The Doctor, I really do think he is just saying the truth and realises there's no point in protesting because it doesn't really make any difference, he won't be believed and he was involved to some extent.

I hadn't thought about the fact that Buffy's possible memory of hearing about Connor would have gone anyway. When the spell was broken wasn't there something about only those close to thing that broke getting their memories back?? I can't remember right now and don't have time to call up the transcript.

It amuses me how often these threads go off on tangents as we're now mostly discussing wished for scenes rather than ones that were referenced but not seen. To bring it back on topic and meet up one of the tangents to the thread idea, I'll say the scene where Spike agreed to look after the eggs. :lol:

Silver1
12-04-18, 12:03 PM
Spike wasn't the Doctor imo. An arms dealer that doesn't even own a phone? I mean come on....:roll:

HardlyThere
12-04-18, 12:42 PM
Spike wasn't the Doctor imo. An arms dealer that doesn't even own a phone? I mean come on....:roll:

A lot of older mob bosses didn't have phones. They had payphones, which Spike had access to.

I can't disagree that they should have built it up more outside of "I can get money" which could have meant anything.

flow
12-04-18, 01:15 PM
I´d like to see the scene, that would explain, why Clem thinks, Buffy wants to watch history channel with him :roll:

flow

Silver1
12-04-18, 01:29 PM
A lot of older mob bosses didn't have phones. They had payphones, which Spike had access to.

In the 1990's/2000's though? I doubt it.

HardlyThere
12-04-18, 01:58 PM
In the 1990's/2000's though? I doubt it.

Yes, before the age of burners, they still used payphones. That smart ones anyway.

Silver1
12-04-18, 02:02 PM
Yeah but in the early years of the internet I'm sure big dealers would be expected to have easy access to communication networks.

Sorry I just don't but It. Spike was a small thinking guy when it came to plans, unlike Angel wanting to take down the world stuff and so I can't see him being into that.

Turning a blind eye to deals that involves looking after stuff, yes, but making a big career move into it, nah.

HardlyThere
12-04-18, 02:08 PM
Yeah but in the early years of the internet I'm sure big dealers would be expected to have easy access to communication networks.

Sorry I just don't but It. Spike was a small thinking guy when it came to plans, unlike Angel wanting to take down the world stuff and so I can't see him being into that.

Turning a blind eye to deals that involves looking after stuff, yes, but making a big career move into it, nah.

He was single-minded, not small thinking, I'd say. He researched and formed a plans to cure Dru, assemble the Judge, find the ring of Amarra, team up with Adam and so on. Making some money dealing in demon eggs isn't outlandish.

What is outlandish is absolutely no buildup to it. AYW is a terrible, terrible episode.

Priceless
12-04-18, 02:08 PM
I'd have liked to see what Sheila did to that Horticulture teacher. In fact I'd have loved a whole episode set around a Horticulture class just to see what the hell it was :D

SpuffyGlitz
12-04-18, 08:38 PM
-- I'd like to see when Buffy was sent to see a shrink (when she first attempted to tell her parents about vampires). She seemed pretty traumatised by the memory of it in Normal Again.

-- More detailed scenes of Spike and Drusilla's breakup - not just the snippets we saw.

-- I'd also like to see how Joyce and Hank met, if at all possible -- just to get further insight into Buffy's parents and what Joyce initially saw in Hank.

bespangled
13-04-18, 02:45 AM
He was single-minded, not small thinking, I'd say. He researched and formed a plans to cure Dru, assemble the Judge, find the ring of Amarra, team up with Adam and so on. Making some money dealing in demon eggs isn't outlandish.

What is outlandish is absolutely no buildup to it. AYW is a terrible, terrible episode.

If he was too stupid to find a place where he could freeze the eggs then he could not have been a successful international arms dealer because taking care of the product is the first order of business. If he was a successful international arms dealer it would have taken years for him to get enough good word of mouth to go global. It would have taken a close knit group of workers to acquire, advertise and transport product. I don't see that happening under Buffy's watchful eye.

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-- I'd like to see when Buffy was sent to see a shrink (when she first attempted to tell her parents about vampires). She seemed pretty traumatised by the memory of it in Normal Again.

Particularly because she had no idea she was seeing vampires - just strange looking creatures. This happened before the council discovered her.

DeepBlueJoy
17-05-18, 11:19 PM
A lot of things are referenced in conversation or seemed to have happened but haven't been seen on screen. What would you have liked to have seen? To start us off I would have liked to have seen Giles and Spike watching Passions. I would have also liked to have seen Buffy telling Spike about the time Faith was in her body and Spike figuring out it wasn't Buffy who wanted to pop him like warm Champagne.

I would have liked to have seen Giles getting his nails painted by Dawn. Didn't he say that happened? Anyway, that would have made me laugh.

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Oh, it's so cliched as a Spuffy wish, but I would have liked to have seen Buffy finding out Spike was alive post Chosen (going with the kicking down doors in response reference Joss put into Lynch's Spike 8). But sadly we were already missing seeing things 'on screen' by then. It would have been interesting to see Buffy's reaction to finding out about Connor.

In one of my stories, I have Buffy saying "I can't believe he slept with that skank!" or words to that effect when Willow breaks the spell that hides the memory of Connor's existence. And Willow saying something like: "That's what you said when you found out the first time!"

I definitely think Buffy would have been very disgusted by the idea of Angel and Darla hooking up, even if the idea of Connor only made her feel sad, not mad, (assuming she would care and I think even if she loved Spike to death by whenever she found out), Because it's the thing that 'could never happen' - her having a child with Angel. I believe it would make her somewhat sad. Probably b/c she knows she's unlikely to have a kid, with Spike either...

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Sorry, but I'm gonna Spander things up a bit:

Hush: We didn't get to see the scene where Xander and Spike lose their voices. Why? I mean, after the BD&SM action of the tying Spike up to a chair and the Xander shoving his perfect butt in Spike's face... were they doing something too NC17 for the viewers to watch at the moment their lost their voices? Hmmm

Oh that is too perfect. Even if it isn't canon. I bow deeply to your lovely and fun head canon! Go to the head of the class! :vamp_twisted: :kiss:

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Well, I am of two minds of this. Because I don't want her dead at all, I wouldn't want this... but since they did kill her off, bastards that the showrunners were, there should have been a funeral with all the Buffy alum and even her parents... for CORDELIA CHASE. How could there be a dead Cordelia with NO funeral, not even the AI folks?


We should have seen Harmony cry over her.

We should have maybe even seen some of those girls from her clique back in Sunnydale - some of them would have known her from childhood. If she could stay friendly with Harmony as a vampire, I think maybe some of them might have cared...

And there should have been recriminations about how no one had asked Willow for help with saving her... and Spike seeing Buffy then, if not before.

It just makes NO sense to me that she was so very disrespected by the show runners, that Cordelia's character didn't even rate a funeral. Or a wake. Or grief from those who claimed to love her, for the REST OF THE SERIES. On One Tree Hill when one character loses her mother, she goes into a clinical depression.

Another character is shown to be deeply saddened by the loss of another relative... and it had knock on consequences. REALITY is that we keep grieving, if it's a parent (especially if we lose them early), child or spouse, we grieve for EVER. (though most of us with such losses learn to hide this from other people)

Sorry, every time I think of what they did to Charisma -- and thus to the character of Cordelia, I think of the horrible sexual politics and work politics and just how awfully she was treated. It makes me furious.

Anyway:



Cordelia Chase should have had a proper damn funeral!

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Spike wasn't the Doctor imo. An arms dealer that doesn't even own a phone? I mean come on....:roll:

I agree. I never believed Riley. Never believe a man who stabs someone in the heart with a plastic stake, just to see them suffer (that one act is suggestive of sociopathy, IMO) Goes double if he doesn't tell you he has a wife while sweet talking you, so he can feed his own ego, and enlist your superior assistance. And of course, the poison cherry on top, he marries someone less than a year after leaving you, who he claimed he loved. (and yeah, he parades her under your nose to hurt you - unnecessary roughness.) Not trustworthy. Not remotely.

Spike would have had at least a BEEPER. Remember those? i see them on reruns of shows like Law and Order.

I do believe Spike. He wasn't the doctor and I don't think he knew what the eggs were all about... i think he needed money for blood, booze and smokes, and his judgment wasn't that great b/c of the soul lacking. He wouldn't consciously do something to hurt/upset Buffy, but that didn't mean he had great judgement. He probably thought they were more demon 'exchange' items... like the kittens, and I bet the person he kept them for would not have told him.

Another reason he wasn't the doctor? he was keeping the eggs somewhere Buffy could easily have had access to. Why would he not hide them somewhere else if they were something he knew was evil. It's not like there were no other crypts. I'm not even sure they were what Riley said they were. Because I do not trust Riley.

I wish I'd seen him smack Riley, though it didn't happen... sigh.

flow
18-05-18, 02:02 PM
Cordelia Chase should have had a proper damn funeral!

I agree. The next epiosde is Why We Fight. It could have been done easyil. Just let the gang sit together at W&H having just returned from Cordelia`s funeral and comforting each other and then Lawson walks in and takes them as hostages.

It would have provided continuity and it would have shown respect for Cordelia.

flow

bespangled
18-05-18, 11:54 PM
Nope - no funeral. The only funeral in the B-verse was Joyce's. Tara never got a funeral. Jesse never got a funeral.

The episode "You're Welcome" showed how little the body really meant anyway. Cordelia was doing all of this while her body was dying in a bed somewhere. If we take Joss out of the equation and go purely Watsonian, Cordelia could have returned anyway. She had the kind of death that showed she could be corporeal even after her original body died.

DeepBlueJoy
19-05-18, 12:41 AM
Didn't jenny have a funeral? I seem to remember images of a funeral, but that might have only been Buffy's dream... but she wasn't forgotten. Giles pines for her, and imagines he's being haunted by her.

Jesse didn't have a funeral... but there wasn't a body to bury. It would have been hard for Willow and Xander to go to his parents and suggest he'd been 'dusted'. Jesse was mentioned in the comics, so not forgotten.

Tara didn't have a funeral and neither did Buffy, but both had GRAVES that other characters were shown visiting, or that were simply shown.

Fred's corpse was up and walking around. There was grieving even before she died and Wesley in particular doesn't react well to Illyria... everyone's a mess.

There was grief after Doyle's death. He was remembered with film, five years later. There was no body to bury there either... not even ashes.

bespangled
19-05-18, 09:35 AM
Didnt jenny have a funeral?

Just a grave with the wrong name where Giles left flowers. Besides, it would have to be a night funeral for the vamps. Which means Lawson would not have been able to kidnap anyone.

ghoststar
20-05-18, 04:19 PM
A wishlist:

-- Dawn's first meeting with Spike, either the first that she remembers or the first that really happens.

-- Spike taking the demon eggs, so that we could finally know exactly what he knew and when he knew it and put this discourse to bed

-- They probably couldn't have gotten away with showing the deed itself, but I would've liked less ambiguity in how physical Angel and Dru had become. So, I'd like a scene of Spike saying he'd heard them having sex (if they had) or something along the lines of it being a matter of time (if they hadn't).

GoSpuffy
20-05-18, 04:30 PM
Good list ghoststar.

Also Xander summoning Sweet so we can see it was accidental or purposeful.

bespangled
21-05-18, 12:20 AM
Since Spangel is canon, I would have liked to see some more direct indication that they had a sexual relationship. The last scene in TGIQ should have been Spike and Angel in bed, asleep, naked.

Moving on...together.

ghoststar
21-05-18, 12:55 AM
Since Spangel is canon, I would have liked to see some more direct indication that they had a sexual relationship. The last scene in TGIQ should have been Spike and Angel in bed, asleep, naked.

Moving on...together.

IIRC, the canon confirmation of Spangel occurs in S5 of Angel, when Spike states that he and Angel were only “intimate” “the once,” and their present-day relationship is antagonistic enough for me to assume it took place in the 19th century. So putting them in bed would probably need to be in a flashback scene, which isn’t usually how the episodes end. “Destiny” would’ve been a better place to put a Spangel scene.

BtVS doesn’t itself make Spangel sex canon, but neither does it specify that they only had sex once. With neither of them being the lead, I’m not sure where the scene would’ve gone. Possibly in “LMPTM,” with the focus on Spike’s shift from one parental figure to another.

DeepBlueJoy
21-05-18, 02:51 AM
Nope - no funeral. The only funeral in the B-verse was Joyce's. Tara never got a funeral. Jesse never got a funeral.

The episode "You're Welcome" showed how little the body really meant anyway. Cordelia was doing all of this while her body was dying in a bed somewhere. If we take Joss out of the equation and go purely Watsonian, Cordelia could have returned anyway. She had the kind of death that showed she could be corporeal even after her original body died.
Not quite true.

Cordelia is the only person who simply 'died', and other than her visions is never mentioned again. Tara has a grave, as does Buffy. So we know both were buried - because they each have a grave. There was no body for Jesse's parents to bury. Who knows what they knew.

bespangled
21-05-18, 03:10 AM
IIRC, the canon confirmation of Spangel occurs in S5 of Angel, when Spike states that he and Angel were only “intimate” “the once,” and their present-day relationship is antagonistic enough for me to assume it took place in the 19th century. So putting them in bed would probably need to be in a flashback scene, which isn’t usually how the episodes end. “Destiny” would’ve been a better place to put a Spangel scene.

BtVS doesn’t itself make Spangel sex canon, but neither does it specify that they only had sex once. With neither of them being the lead, I’m not sure where the scene would’ve gone. Possibly in “LMPTM,” with the focus on Spike’s shift from one parental figure to another.

No just once!

SPIKE
Bloody helpful.
(they continue walking)
You're wrong about Angel. Not that I don't think the sod could end up being a megalomaniacal bastard. It's just that if he did... I'd know it. I'd feel it.

ILLYRIA
You'll have proof soon enough. A corrupted ruler on such a path sees treachery and betrayal all around him. He cannot suffer intimates and will eventually turn against them.

SPIKE
Guess I don't have to worry about that, 'cause Angel and me have never been intimate. Except that one...

Believe me - words are cheap. If Joss wanted Spike to say one time that's what the line would have been. As far as Spike and Angelus are concerned, Joss has stated that they were active sex partners. In fact, he was surprised anyone thought otherwise. Given that there is no canon that they didn't have an active sex life, I'm going with that.

The thing is that Spike makes a distinction between Angel and Angelus. He specifies Angel in that comment. Antagonistic flirting is a thing - like Cordy and Xander early on. By the time they got to TGIQ, I think they were pretty bonded.

My head canon - and I am sticking to it!

DeepBlueJoy
22-05-18, 02:52 PM
No just once!

SPIKE
Bloody helpful.
(they continue walking)
You're wrong about Angel. Not that I don't think the sod could end up being a megalomaniacal bastard. It's just that if he did... I'd know it. I'd feel it.

ILLYRIA
You'll have proof soon enough. A corrupted ruler on such a path sees treachery and betrayal all around him. He cannot suffer intimates and will eventually turn against them.

SPIKE
Guess I don't have to worry about that, 'cause Angel and me have never been intimate. Except that one...

Believe me - words are cheap. If Joss wanted Spike to say one time that's what the line would have been. As far as Spike and Angelus are concerned, Joss has stated that they were active sex partners. In fact, he was surprised anyone thought otherwise. Given that there is no canon that they didn't have an active sex life, I'm going with that.

The thing is that Spike makes a distinction between Angel and Angelus. He specifies Angel in that comment. Antagonistic flirting is a thing - like Cordy and Xander early on. By the time they got to TGIQ, I think they were pretty bonded.

My head canon - and I am sticking to it!

Hehe. Never caught the Angel distinction! Good that gives me lots of room for mischief! And my prior assumptions that Liam's suggestive whispering in young willy's ear were definitely flirtatious! Nothing i saw in flashbacks made me think vampires were anything but sexually indescriminate. Why should they be locked into human rules?

Stoney
22-05-18, 07:19 PM
I'm really not wanting to get into a debate on whether Spike/Angel had a regular sexual relationship or not again, I just wanted to say I'm pretty sure Spike regularly calls Angel Angel/Angelus interchangeably, it isn't a distinction for him. When Angel is souled he refers to him as Angel like at the beginning of Innocence "I'm not happy, pet. Angel and the Slayer are still alive." but he also calls him Angelus when he is souled, like in WML pt2 "Too bad, Angelus. Looks like you go the hard way.". Then when Angel is unsouled he calls him Angelus in Passions "If you ask me, I find myself preferring the old Buffy-whipped Angelus." and still when he is unsouled he then calls him Angel in IOHEFY "Big deal. He won't do anything. Our man Angel here likes to talk but he's not much for action. All hat and no cattle." Dru calls Angel 'Angel' when he's unsouled too. :noidea:

bespangled
22-05-18, 10:20 PM
That's pretty few examples for interchangeably, and I could give relevant reasons for each of them but not in the mood to debate that one. Let's narrow the field - does souled Spike ever call Angel Angelus? In fact, After season 2 BTVS, does he call Angel Angelus? Does he ever refer to Angel as Angelus while he's in LA. There are a few examples to cherry pick - usually insults.

What is the issue with this one canon relationship? I don't think there are any other canon relationships that get this much push back. :confused:

Stoney
23-05-18, 05:48 AM
It isn't an issue with the canon of the relationship. I think perhaps the reason the relationship in that sense is debated greatly is possibly just because there isn't a lot actually confirmed in canon and so a lot is down to interpretation and people's stances can vary greatly. We've a difference of opinion of what canon reveals alongside what little is confirmed, but we've discussed that before. I honestly wasn't trying to raise that again but was just considering the name labelling as being more fluid originally.

I think the ease of adding the 'us' onto Angel to bring clarity to when they were talking about souled/unsouled developed more later and in AtS for mostly narrative reasons. But Spike and Angel both talk about themselves both as distinct and yet also with continuity when souled/unsouled. I wasn't vaguely trying to seek out extensive examples, just looking at how there are examples of Spike using either. It's always possible to consider why one would be used rather than another in the moment of course and when it is used derogatorily perhaps that is in part about emphasising that there is continuity and the distinction isn't as distinct as the name split seems to provide/imply. The narrative use for it did seem to change though, if we're interpreting reasons for why one and not the other. I'm honestly not sure if Spike ever calls Angel Angelus much after he becomes souled himself, but I think they do emphasise to each other that they see a continuity in the other one regardless of the souls. It's part of what gives their relationship history continued meaning still even though being souled is quite a distinct state, that they don't really distinguish in a general way like that I think.

bespangled
23-05-18, 07:37 AM
It isn't an issue with the canon of the relationship. I think perhaps the reason the relationship in that sense is debated greatly is possibly just because there isn't a lot actually confirmed in canon and so a lot is down to interpretation and people's stances can vary greatly. We've a difference of opinion of what canon reveals alongside what little is confirmed, but we've discussed that before. I honestly wasn't trying to raise that again but was just considering the name labelling as being more fluid originally.

I think the ease of adding the 'us' onto Angel to bring clarity to when they were talking about souled/unsouled developed more later and in AtS for mostly narrative reasons. But Spike and Angel both talk about themselves both as distinct and yet also with continuity when souled/unsouled. I wasn't vaguely trying to seek out extensive examples, just looking at how there are examples of Spike using either. It's always possible to consider why one would be used rather than another in the moment of course and when it is used derogatorily perhaps that is in part about emphasising that there is continuity and the distinction isn't as distinct as the name split seems to provide/imply. The narrative use for it did seem to change though, if we're interpreting reasons for why one and not the other. I'm honestly not sure if Spike ever calls Angel Angelus much after he becomes souled himself, but I think they do emphasise to each other that they see a continuity in the other one regardless of the souls. It's part of what gives their relationship history continued meaning still even though being souled is quite a distinct state, that they don't really distinguish in a general way like that I think.

Completely agree.

But this is also why I think they are sexual with each other. They both remember everything from their past and they are ex-lovers - sex is enjoyable and they can bitch at each other if thy want -- they are both equally strong and probably aware of each others kinks - and they care about each other. It's really not a bond anyone can imagine as we all will die. That sense of continuity functions on all levels, IMO.

Some of the people I enjoy being with can be brutally honest. I like the fact that I know what to expect - and I can trust them. They won't paint a rosy picture if it's bleak. They'll brainstorm with me how to fix it. Multiply that by 120+ years, an eternal struggle to be alpha (or not to be beta), and then you get the antagonistic flirting,. What is under that constant arguing is many layers deep and filled with scar tissue, but also gut level trust. They flip on a dime when needed by the other. The arguing is pretty much performance art for each other. And, I agree - this is all IMO.

Funny we see the same thing, with different interpretations.;)

Stoney
23-05-18, 10:50 AM
Funny we see the same thing, with different interpretations.;)

Ha, yes I know. I completely see them having had a sexual encounter in their past but I think it was limited by one or both of them by choice, probably even to one occasion, and I don't see anything in their souled interactions to believe there is anything currently sexual between them. And yet we do see a lot of the same aspects in their interactions too and in their significance to each other. As you say, they are just different interpretations. :)

Cheese Slices
23-05-18, 11:03 AM
Re. the Angel/Angelus dichotomy, I wonder when and how the fandom started it. In Buffy the distinction is never made, they call him Angel regardless of his soul status.

bespangled
23-05-18, 11:37 PM
Ha, yes I know. I completely see them having had a sexual encounter in their past but I think it was limited by one or both of them by choice, probably even to one occasion, and I don't see anything in their souled interactions to believe there is anything currently sexual between them. And yet we do see a lot of the same aspects in their interactions too and in their significance to each other. As you say, they are just different interpretations. :)

And there we go back to Scenes I wish I had seen. :D

GoSpuffy
15-10-18, 01:38 AM
I wish I had seen Buffy's funeral. Was spike there? Angel? Cordy? Daytime or night time?

ghoststar
15-10-18, 04:47 PM
- The ending scene of "Smashed" (B 6.09) is really the only Buffy/Spike sex scene and they are both completely covered including their arms. The next closest is the censored Under the Rug Scene. So, a true sex scene where they both are naked. The most graphic and explicit scenes on BtVS are Buffy/Riley scenes.

Still no nudity, but the alleyway scene from "Doublemeat Palace" and the balcony scene from "The Bronze" definitely show sex. While it's true that the Buffy/Riley scenes are the most explicit, they don't feature nudity by most American definitions, either. Spike shows by far the most skin in sexual contexts, as side angles in "Wrecked" and "Gone" show there's not a stitch that runs all the way around him, and the camera operators and editors basically turned "how to show everything except genitals and gluteal cleft" into its own art form. It was possible at the time to show rear nudity in non-sexual contexts (e.g., Angel's return from Acathla's dimension), at least if you obscured it a little, but genitals/gluteal cleft/female nipples in a sex scene would've drawn instant fines. One of the reasons that the FCC declined to punish UPN for the "Smashed" sex scene was, in fact, the absence of nudity.

SMG showed very little skin, even of regions that weren't guaranteed fines-in-waiting, in the sex scenes for a similar reason to Landau's. Based on cast interviews from YouTube, it was a compromise with Joss: Gellar was willing to film simulated sex on set, but she didn't want the audience to see her naked (even artfully arranged). Landau also appears in a sex scene in the Angel episode "Destiny," although she's wearing a chemise and corset.

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Re. the Angel/Angelus dichotomy, I wonder when and how the fandom started it. In Buffy the distinction is never made, they call him Angel regardless of his soul status.

Was it really started by the fandom tho? It's true that, on BtVS, "they call him Angel regardless of his soul status," but that isn't true of characters on AtS. As early as season 2, Darla wonders who he really is: "That wasn't Angel. It wasn't Angelus." By the season finale, when Angel signs away any rights to the Shanshu prophecy, the other negotiators at the table congratulate him on becoming Angelus again, and are surprised when he says that he's still Angel.

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The Key still has active magical properties ("Two to Go"), and Dawn is starting to work magic in season 7 ("Conversations with Dead People"; "Get It Done"). I would've liked a scene where she talked about how she expected her Key status to interact with her workings.