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Priceless
05-04-18, 12:51 PM
Listening to the Harry Groener interview on Buffering the Podcast and they mention The Mayor giving Faith cookies, and it occurs to me that 'cookies' are mentioned many times throughout the show. They are the go-to food stuff for all the writers. Is that intentional? In what other episodes do 'cookies' appear or are discussed, and what's the metaphor or meaning behind them?

TriBel
05-04-18, 01:16 PM
Hmmm...not sure about the metaphor. Willow bakes them in Something Blue doesn't she? It's by way of an apology - and Spike gets one to shut him up. LOL! That'll do me for Chosen! Cookies - "a treat"? Instant gratification - the thing you have instead of a real meal?

This always interests me: Warren AKA The First "Of course she won't understand, Sparky. I'm beyond her understanding. She's a girl. Sugar and spice and everything...useless unless you're baking. I'm more than that. More than flesh..." Can't believe it's coincidental.

There's also this - from a page on Thomas Aquinas: According to the medicine of his century, which, of course, Thomas did not correct, woman was an incomplete man, a half-baked male, whose unfinished characteristics come about through some weakness in the parents, some disposition in the human material or some extrinsic cause such as, for example, a strong south wind at the time of conception.

It seems to me that "finished baking" isn't necessarily a positive remark in a feminist text.

HardlyThere
05-04-18, 02:46 PM
I think it means nothing.

Oz and Willow talk animals crackers. They're actually cookies. Ted and his mind control cookies. There are probably more than a dozen cookie references throughout the show. There are a lot of cake references, too. And chocolate.

Willow seems more of a cookie person. Buffy seems more a cake person.

Priceless
05-04-18, 02:49 PM
Hmmm...not sure about the metaphor. Willow bakes them in Something Blue doesn't she? It's by way of an apology - and Spike gets one to shut him up. LOL! That'll do me for Chosen! Cookies - "a treat"? Instant gratification - the thing you have instead of a real meal?

This always interests me: Warren AKA The First "Of course she won't understand, Sparky. I'm beyond her understanding. She's a girl. Sugar and spice and everything...useless unless you're baking. I'm more than that. More than flesh..." Can't believe it's coincidental.

There's also this - from a page on Thomas Aquinas: According to the medicine of his century, which, of course, Thomas did not correct, woman was an incomplete man, a half-baked male, whose unfinished characteristics come about through some weakness in the parents, some disposition in the human material or some extrinsic cause such as, for example, a strong south wind at the time of conception.

It seems to me that "finished baking" isn't necessarily a positive remark in a feminist text.

Baking is definitely seem as a feminine I think. Great chef's are historically men, they create wonderful meals, they are artists, while women bake, which is seen as mundane.

When the Mayor gives Faith cookies and milk he's trying to make her feel secure, I think, as this is a treat for a child, not a grown woman. He wants her to be both his child and his assassin.

'Ted' makes cookies that are laced with an mdma-like substance, to keep everyone calm and subdued. (Xander declares him a wonderful chef) But the cookies are also the clue that leads the scoobies into uncovering what Ted really is.

- - - Updated - - -


I think it means nothing.

Oz and Willow talk animals crackers. They're actually cookies. Ted and his mind control cookies. There are probably more than a dozen cookie references throughout the show. There are a lot of cake references, too. And chocolate.

Willow seems more of a cookie person. Buffy seems more a cake person.

You're probably right. I just like to think that there are links throughout the show, especially because Buffy calls herself 'cookie dough'. It's an odd metaphor, especially when I don't think we ever see Angel eating anything like that except when he was human for a day.

HardlyThere
05-04-18, 03:00 PM
Baking is definitely seem as a feminine I think. Great chef's are historically men, they create wonderful meals, they are artists, while women bake, which is seen as mundane.

When the Mayor gives Faith cookies and milk he's trying to make her feel secure, I think, as this is a treat for a child, not a grown woman. He wants her to be both his child and his assassin.

'Ted' makes cookies that are laced with an mdma-like substance, to keep everyone calm and subdued. (Xander declares him a wonderful chef) But the cookies are also the clue that leads the scoobies into uncovering what Ted really is.

- - - Updated - - -



You're probably right. I just like to think that there are links throughout the show, especially because Buffy calls herself 'cookie dough'. It's an odd metaphor, especially when I don't think we ever see Angel eating anything like that except when he was human for a day.

It didn't really have much to do with Angel, as we saw later in S5. It's unintended, but you could extrapolate a hidden meaning since cookies are usually a reward and thus Angel thinks he should get cookies. It's a serviceable metaphor in that situation. Of the top of my head, Buffy jokes a bout Giles given her cookies after completing a mission. Willow talks oreos once or twice. Maybe they were big with the writers.

TriBel
05-04-18, 03:15 PM
If I wanted to get really Freudian I'd point out that cookies are baked in ovens - and women have "buns in ovens". It's a common enough metaphor - I've seen it used by "serious" writers. There's also the confusion caused by young children being told that babies come from mummy's tummy. I don't think it's any coincidence that the involuntary memory Buffy has at the beginning of The Body involves a pie being taken out of the oven (it's burned). Nor do I think it's any coincidence Buffy gets jealous because Joyce refers to Dawn as "little pumpkin belly". It's possibly all connected to an inter-uterine fantasy. Food has a particular importance in religious rituals (LOL! Did you know you can get gluten free communion wafers? :lol:) as an offering to the Gods. Do I think there's a sustainable argument for their symbolism in BrVS - yes (not sure about the gluten free wafers though).:)

Priceless
05-04-18, 06:23 PM
If I wanted to get really Freudian I'd point out that cookies are baked in ovens - and women have "buns in ovens". It's a common enough metaphor - I've seen it used by "serious" writers. There's also the confusion caused by young children being told that babies come from mummy's tummy. I don't think it's any coincidence that the involuntary memory Buffy has at the beginning of The Body involves a pie being taken out of the oven (it's burned). Nor do I think it's any coincidence Buffy gets jealous because Joyce refers to Dawn as "little pumpkin belly". It's possibly all connected to an inter-uterine fantasy. Food has a particular importance in religious rituals (LOL! Did you know you can get gluten free communion wafers? :lol:) as an offering to the Gods. Do I think there's a sustainable argument for their symbolism in BrVS - yes (not sure about the gluten free wafers though).:)

Let's get Freudian :D Does the pie represent Joyce or Buffy or their relationship?

Food is constantly being referenced in the show, and has major importance to the characters. Even in AtS it plays a role, as when Angel becomes human one of the first things he does is eat, and he doesn't go for the kale, but for the ice-cream, the bad food, and don't he and Buffy first have sex on the kitchen table? (I've only seen AtS twice so I could be mis-remembering)

TriBel
05-04-18, 07:50 PM
Food's an oral pleasure - orality is associated with vampires (sucking) and the mother (sucking). After that it gets complicated! I've always argued Spike's feelings for Buffy were related to his feelings for Anne (we know he has "mummy issues"). I didn't realise until later that Buffy had similar problems with Joyce.

The pie - it's this scene. I think it's an involuntary memory - I don't even know if Buffy herself is aware of it. It immediately precedes her finding Joyce - it's probably happening simultaneously.

The camera follows Buffy as, smiling, she carries dishes into the kitchen. We see Giles doing something by the counter and Joyce taking something out of the oven.
JOYCE: Damn it! I hate this oven. It burnt. (She puts a pie on the kitchen island).
BUFFY: Oh, no, it's just blackened, you know, it's, it's Cajun pie. Giles turns and we see he's holding a bottle of wine.
GILES: (to Joyce) Shall I open another?
JOYCE: Oh, do you think we dare?
BUFFY: As long as you two stay away from the band candy, I'm cool with anything.
Joyce and Giles look embarrassed. Giles clears his throat, grabs the bottle opener and moves off, out of the picture frame. Buffy begins examining the burnt pie.
JOYCE: (quietly to Buffy) You are a demon child.
BUFFY: I live to torment you, is that so wrong?
JOYCE: A daughter's duty, I suppose. (kisses Buffy on the forehead)
BUFFY: Look, all we have to do is just cut off a little bit of the burnt...
As she begins trying to cut the pie, it falls off the island and onto the floor.

Cut back to present day. Shot of Joyce's face as she lies on the sofa, her eyes open and unseeing.

I've highlighted the key bits (TBH, it's all key - even the bit that went before) I'd forgotten about the oven when I mentioned it in the earlier post. I'm presuming that even though the scene doesn't appear traumatic, Buffy repressed it and it comes to the surface when she's faced with the trauma of her mum's death. It could be that the scene never happened - it could be a scene conjured by the unconscious to make her fears palatable. Either way, it articulates them. Reading the bold bits - Joyce hates her womb - does that include the fruits of it? That's Buffy's fear. Buffy's a "demon child" - Dracula told her the same (as will Spike, we wait until S7 to have it confirmed) - we know Joyce wasn't happy about the slaying (her "duty"), which was why Buffy left Joyce in Becoming - now Joyce has left her. The pie (which rhymes with I) is wrong - it's come out of the oven "wrong", Buffy's solution is to "cut" a bit off (could refer to castration but could also refer to Buffy cutting herself off from people). It falls on the floor and is broken.How many times will we hear te terms "cut off" and "broken" between now and Chosen?

It's all confirmed in Intervention Buffy: "Before that. Riley left because I was shut down. He's gone. And now my mom is gone ... and I loved her more than anything ... and ... I don't know if she knew. I think what happens in Intervention is Buffy transfers her feelings for Joyce onto Spike.

My argument is that Buffy's "mental health" problems in S6 predate being pulled from Heaven (that's simply the return of the repressed - she's separated from the mother again). Similarly, being in the shadows (belonging to Spike's world) is nothing new - nor is cutting herself off from friends and family.

I could write 10,000 words on this - thank any deity you're on first name terms with that I haven't! :)

HowiMetdaSlayer
06-04-18, 07:40 PM
Sometimes a cookie is just a cookie. ;)