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View Full Version : Season 12 - Time Warp and Different Timelines



betta
23-03-18, 02:32 AM
This is the synopses for the season: Buffy finds herself in a time warp that could alter the fate of the world and could spell the end for Buffy, her friends, and the Slayers, forever.

I know nothing about science fiction, so my question is what does exactly "time warp" have to do with "different timelines"? And could this time warp be just the one caused by the arriving of Harth (and Fray) in the present?

HardlyThere
23-03-18, 02:56 AM
In a lot of ways, they are mutually exclusive but it's whatever the writers wants.

To me, time warp is either a loop, see Mummy Hand, or time travel but both suggest a singular, set timeline.

DanSlayer
23-03-18, 04:02 AM
There's typically three ways to do a time travel story.

1. What Whatever Happened, Happened. The Lost method. The timeline is set in stone. If you go back to the past any actions you take already were in place for your present. Daniel comes to the island in his late 20s. He time travels to 1974 and spends three years there. In 1977 he is physically 30, and killed by his own pregnant mother. She raised his whole life knowing he'd go to the island where she did/will kill him and there's no way to change that ever. In video form, (kid Ben didn't remember because he was mind-wiped). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_dH4xOFp9w

2. Change things. The Back to the Future Method. You can go back and alter things, returning home to a changed present for yourself. Accidentally ruin your parents meeting each other; have them meet somewhere else and when you get home only you remember the original version. A side variant of this is to save someone's life in the past but to not change too much by bringing them with you through a time portal so the person was missing for however long instead of dead until you return to the proper time with them. Video form of fallout: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrrP9CrL_BQ

3. Alternate Universes. This is the most complicated. Dragonball Z/Super is the only one I can think that pulled this off recently. You can go back and change things but the timeline will branch off by creating a changed world, your original home is still messed up by whatever you tried to change. In video form:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoZ_bHr-9JY

One of the reasons Angel S11 was a problem was because it didn't commit to any way of doing it. With the Scythe now red like Fray's some hints are pointing toward WHH; but Buffy's time still has plenty of vamps and magic when they got the Seed back. Fray's timeline has no daywalker vamps. Also the dead world Whistler was afraid of was probably Fray's, a one-armed girl, probably Loo Fray's little friend was in Whistler's vision. The timelines could break off to either give each shipper base something or be a way to keep Buffy from being with anyone. They could also prevent Fray entirely but I doubt that since Joss loves her so much.

KingofCretins
23-03-18, 05:02 AM
... Reset is on. Between this synopsis and the "it's not the finale" but obviously totally is condtradiction, only explanation that remains. At the very least, we're getting a JJ Abrams-Star Trek move here.

A) The Buffyverse "prime" ends as once promised, with the portal closing on the last Slayer's hand, but somehow an alternate is set up for our continuing adventures.
B) the Buffyverse is getting "zero hour"ed in a way that will involve FDW and events that basically collapse the extant Buffyverse, resolving all "Fray" conflicts of causality and FDW, etc.

That's my guess. We end up with a "new" Buffyverse, and I'm guessing one that probably touches all the bases for what Joss would be doing now if he was starting it now in terms of cast and setting.

HardlyThere
23-03-18, 07:35 PM
... Reset is on. Between this synopsis and the "it's not the finale" but obviously totally is condtradiction, only explanation that remains. At the very least, we're getting a JJ Abrams-Star Trek move here.

A) The Buffyverse "prime" ends as once promised, with the portal closing on the last Slayer's hand, but somehow an alternate is set up for our continuing adventures.
B) the Buffyverse is getting "zero hour"ed in a way that will involve FDW and events that basically collapse the extant Buffyverse, resolving all "Fray" conflicts of causality and FDW, etc.

That's my guess. We end up with a "new" Buffyverse, and I'm guessing one that probably touches all the bases for what Joss would be doing now if he was starting it now in terms of cast and setting.

There is the somewhat ominous multiverse line in that Giles mini. I really hope they don't go there. It will be Joss's final step off the cliff and falling into full-on spineless hackery.

Given that they're bringing Fray and seemingly the baby/mother metaphor back, this loop/warp they're talking about could go back to Last Gleaming and smashing the Seed or perhaps smashing the new one. Given Illyria's ability to loop, maybe it goes back and they take the Seed to Twilight.

That'd be funny.

betta
23-03-18, 09:44 PM
In a lot of ways, they are mutually exclusive but it's whatever the writers wants.

To me, time warp is either a loop, see Mummy Hand, or time travel but both suggest a singular, set timeline.


There's typically three ways to do a time travel story.

1. What Whatever Happened, Happened. The Lost method. The timeline is set in stone. If you go back to the past any actions you take already were in place for your present. Daniel comes to the island in his late 20s. He time travels to 1974 and spends three years there. In 1977 he is physically 30, and killed by his own pregnant mother. She raised his whole life knowing he'd go to the island where she did/will kill him and there's no way to change that ever. In video form, (kid Ben didn't remember because he was mind-wiped). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_dH4xOFp9w

2. Change things. The Back to the Future Method. You can go back and alter things, returning home to a changed present for yourself. Accidentally ruin your parents meeting each other; have them meet somewhere else and when you get home only you remember the original version. A side variant of this is to save someone's life in the past but to not change too much by bringing them with you through a time portal so the person was missing for however long instead of dead until you return to the proper time with them. Video form of fallout: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrrP9CrL_BQ

3. Alternate Universes. This is the most complicated. Dragonball Z/Super is the only one I can think that pulled this off recently. You can go back and change things but the timeline will branch off by creating a changed world, your original home is still messed up by whatever you tried to change. In video form:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoZ_bHr-9JY

One of the reasons Angel S11 was a problem was because it didn't commit to any way of doing it. With the Scythe now red like Fray's some hints are pointing toward WHH; but Buffy's time still has plenty of vamps and magic when they got the Seed back. Fray's timeline has no daywalker vamps. Also the dead world Whistler was afraid of was probably Fray's, a one-armed girl, probably Loo Fray's little friend was in Whistler's vision. The timelines could break off to either give each shipper base something or be a way to keep Buffy from being with anyone. They could also prevent Fray entirely but I doubt that since Joss loves her so much.

Wow, now my head hurts! But there're lots to think about, what route Joss will take... and yeah, I also think Fray and her world are safe, she is so far in the future and Joss does love her; the issue that will be resolved is FDW – why in hell did Joss add that to the mix? – but I have no idea what can happen to the Scoobies and their present. I'm having a hard time to believe that all will end. If the different timelines happen, I think we'll have just a glimpse in the final issue... maybe...




A) The Buffyverse "prime" ends as once promised, with the portal closing on the last Slayer's hand, but somehow an alternate is set up for our continuing adventures.
B) the Buffyverse is getting "zero hour"ed in a way that will involve FDW and events that basically collapse the extant Buffyverse, resolving all "Fray" conflicts of causality and FDW, etc.

That's my guess. We end up with a "new" Buffyverse, and I'm guessing one that probably touches all the bases for what Joss would be doing now if he was starting it now in terms of cast and setting.

But from what Dark Horse said - "don't fear, the Scoobies advetures will continue" - it seemed to me these adventures will be more of the same (I mean, same characters, same universe). Because otherwise, we, old fans, should fear; if not because we may not like the new thing, we would certainly miss what we have been following for so many years.

HardlyThere
24-03-18, 03:00 AM
Wow, now my head hurts! But there're lots to think about, what route Joss will take... and yeah, I also think Fray and her world are safe, she is so far in the future and Joss does love her; the issue that will be resolved is FDW – why in hell did Joss add that to the mix? – but I have no idea what can happen to the Scoobies and their present. I'm having a hard time to believe that all will end. If the different timelines happen, I think we'll have just a glimpse in the final issue... maybe...



But from what Dark Horse said - "don't fear, the Scoobies advetures will continue" - it seemed to me these adventures will be more of the same (I mean, same characters, same universe). Because otherwise, we, old fans, should fear; if not because we may not like the new thing, we would certainly miss what we have been following for so many years.

Something has to change. For retails sake and for the sake of the story. It's going nowhere.

I also wonder if Illyria's ability to imprison someone outside of time will play in. Joss came up with that. I'm fairly sure Joss wanted Angel back at DH specifically for Illyria.

Things have to go back to S9, more or less, I think. Fray's scythe was all red*, meaning Willow had to fix it. FDW obviously had some kind of power since she exploded when she was killed.

So it could work like S9 happens, but Willow never plants the new Seed but it never gets supercharged, hence the slow leak of magic back in and vamps returning. How that works regarding Dawn and zompires, who knows. But it sounds like 10 and 11 could be wiped out.

Her scythe is actually two-toned in the Twilight flash forward, but how much of this is just artist error, who knows.

DanSlayer
24-03-18, 04:49 AM
Wow, now my head hurts! But there're lots to think about, what route Joss will take... and yeah, I also think Fray and her world are safe, she is so far in the future and Joss does love her; the issue that will be resolved is FDW – why in hell did Joss add that to the mix? – but I have no idea what can happen to the Scoobies and their present. I'm having a hard time to believe that all will end. If the different timelines happen, I think we'll have just a glimpse in the final issue... maybe...



But from what Dark Horse said - "don't fear, the Scoobies advetures will continue" - it seemed to me these adventures will be more of the same (I mean, same characters, same universe). Because otherwise, we, old fans, should fear; if not because we may not like the new thing, we would certainly miss what we have been following for so many years.

Yeah sorry about that, I hope the video aids helped a bit with the headaches. FDW is really the only main comic antagonist not resolved. (Not counting smaller fish like Pearl or the Japanese witch), so it is a big note to go out on. With the Disney deal they could even possibly move Buffy comics to Marvel potentially; they did it with Star Wars. I imagine well be getting a break after September until that is worked out.

TriBel
24-03-18, 02:00 PM
Hardly There
But it sounds like 10 and 11 could be wiped out. Noooo...not listening! Take that back! :evil:

HardlyThere
24-03-18, 05:53 PM
Hardly There Noooo...not listening! Take that back! :evil:

Could be why they're bringing GJ back. Or he's cheap.

Priceless
24-03-18, 06:16 PM
Oh no, I'd hate it if they wiped out the last two years. That would be such a cop out and I would be so disappointed. Would it also mean that Giles stays dead? That everything that happened with Faith and Angel was wiped out too. Wouldn't that be just one giant backward step?

HardlyThere
24-03-18, 06:30 PM
Oh no, I'd hate it if they wiped out the last two years. That would be such a cop out and I would be so disappointed. Would it also mean that Giles stays dead? That everything that happened with Faith and Angel was wiped out too. Wouldn't that be just one giant backward step?


Giles came back in A&F 9. The scythe was fixed and magic restored in 9. A&F 10/11 and Buffy 10/11 have pretty much just been running in place.

Priceless
24-03-18, 06:36 PM
Giles came back in A&F 9. The scythe was fixed and magic restored in 9. A&F 10/11 and Buffy 10/11 have pretty much just been running in place.

So we'd go back to the end of S9 and forget everything that happened after that? It could happen, I am not ruling anything out :D I just feel that the comic got better post S9, with Gage coming on board, and it would be a shame to backtrack. I thought S11 was important to Whedon, as it was his attempt to take on Trump and his policies. it would also mean that the current Giles comic would become null and void, so it seems strange that they would continue with that, only to wipe it out a month later.

HardlyThere
24-03-18, 06:57 PM
Abortion was important, too. A hard-hitting and provocative storyline... that ended in Buffy being a robot. As long as it was done, Joss thinks that's all that matters, even if it's wiped out later.

It's hard to square NuVamps and all this with Fray. Of course, the same could be said for Zompires. Obviously something happens to wipe out magic again. The thing that fits best is Willow never rebirths the Seed. Unless they smash it again and then do another one. Then there is the issue of the color of the scythe, but that could be one of those things that are changeable.

TriBel
24-03-18, 07:47 PM
I'm not sure. To my mind, there's been a traceable pattern in place since S7 that explains things (including the robot-abortion) up to S11. What they could do is retrospectively start alternative timelines from 9 - so 10/11 take place alongside other stories. I'd have to reread 9 before I committed myself to it.

HardlyThere
24-03-18, 07:53 PM
LOL. I just can't with this anymore. Y'all have fun. I'm out again.

Priceless
24-03-18, 08:00 PM
Abortion was important, too. A hard-hitting and provocative storyline... that ended in Buffy being a robot. As long as it was done, Joss thinks that's all that matters, even if it's wiped out later.

It's hard to square NuVamps and all this with Fray. Of course, the same could be said for Zompires. Obviously something happens to wipe out magic again. The thing that fits best is Willow never rebirths the Seed. Unless they smash it again and then do another one. Then there is the issue of the color of the scythe, but that could be one of those things that are changeable.

I love the robo-abortion storyline. Along with Dawn fading away, I think it's the best storyline in S9 and I understand why Whedon dealt with it like that. It's similar to the way Ted dealt with Buffy killing a human, without having to get bogged down in the politics of it, but just show the emotion. It worked for me, but I do understand that I am probably in the minority. The way it was dealt with didn't wipe it out, or wipe it from people's memories, it happened and was dealt with.

I totally get your point about NuVamp and Zompires and having to wipe out magic again. It would work having Willow not rebirthing the seed. But if she doesn't, would she be able, without magic in the world, to live into Fray's time anyway?

betta
25-03-18, 04:07 AM
Oh no, I'd hate it if they wiped out the last two years. That would be such a cop out and I would be so disappointed. Would it also mean that Giles stays dead? That everything that happened with Faith and Angel was wiped out too. Wouldn't that be just one giant backward step?

Don't worry, I'm sure that will NEVER happen. S12 will explain how things get to be how they are in Fray's future, and reveal why FDW is so sad. I'm not even sure about these different timelines ("to pander to shippers"), with babies and all.

TriBel
25-03-18, 10:19 AM
Don't worry, I'm sure that will NEVER happen. S12 will explain how things get to be how they are in Fray's future, and reveal why FDW is so sad. I'm not even sure about these different timelines ("to pander to shippers"), with babies and all.

As I said, I'd have to go back to S9 before I decide whether I agree with Hardly There's suggestion. I agree with much of what's been said elsewhere about the elimination of S10/11. I agree S11 was politically important and I think there's been a logic in place since S6/7 that culminated in S11. For me S7 was about the unification of extremes (as represented by Spike and Buffy - as Vampire and Vampire Slayer they're as far apart as anything can be). I've put represented in bold because I think it's key. For me, from S5 onwards (at least since Intervention) BtVS was about Spuffy. Spuffy isn't just a romantic ship - it's a vehicle for a radical and progressive rethinking of Western philosophy (Twilight was its opposite. Twilight reaffirmed dominant ideas, ideas that ultimately resulted in the oppression of women).

To go back to Betta's original question, here's Wiki's definition of Time Warp - “A time warp is an imaginary spatial distortion that allows time travel in fiction, or a hypothetical form of time dilation or contraction” S7 itself was a "distortion of time", as evidenced in Whedon's remark about going "back to the beginning". However, I think his statement was disingenuous - I think The Master's was more honest: "right back to the beginning. Not the Bang... not the Word... the true beginning". What S7 did was take us back to origins - not just of the programme or the slayer myth but of thought, language and history, of "self" itself. It culminated in a paradox (for me - the "ILY - no you don't" was simultaneously true and not true and then undercut by the flaming hands) and a void. I think S8-11 have been working to bridge that void. If we get away from the notion of time as linear and teleological then all the characters have been caught up in time warps. Arguably, S6 was to do with metaphorical parallel universes (this without throwing Normal into the mix) with Buffy slipping back and forth between them as she slipped back and forth between the house and the crypt. Any character who's repressed knowledge is caught up in a time loop (most obviously Buffy/Spike/Angel) - as is any character that's been confronted with trauma. "Time" in an abstract sense was flowing forwards and backwards in 7. Time spirals, or it's circular or it's messianic, it spills over, it bleeds - it's not necessarily a straight line. I could go on but I'm boring now (if I wasn't boring at an earlier stage!):(. Suffice to say, we've already seen what's been suggested in some form or another.

Finally, I had a conversation once with Priceless and the phrase "Spuffy was verse shattering" (she said it was mine, I said it wasn't but I'd claim it). I do think we'll see a "shattering" - I think the Seed is an important metaphor; as is the Vampyr book. A vampire/human baby would shatter the verse, as would Spike having unwittingly lost his soul in one of the earlier seasons because both would shatter the mythology on which the verse is premised (alongside shattering the phallogocentrism that normalises patriarchy). I'm wondering whether A11 has already shattered myths. I think we'll see a shattering because - it seems to me - that characters in the Fray verse all bear a trace of the various characters in the Buffyverse. It may be that Willow's responsible for this. :o

Finally, for me, the only obvious "pandering" was the appearance of Angel in Chosen.;) I'll add this - the only reason I can think of eliminating S10/11 relate to the possibility of a reboot and the tensions existing as a result of Seeing Red.

debbicles
25-03-18, 07:31 PM
Oh dear. Can I ask a stupid question? And if it has indeed been clarified already I apologise.
How is it certain that the baby is Angel and Buffy's? Or am I missing something?
Please don't throw things at me for being slow on the uptake. So far almost all I've read makes me wish it had ended in S11.

Priceless
25-03-18, 07:34 PM
Oh dear. Can I ask a stupid question? And if it has indeed been clarified already I apologise.
How is it certain that the baby is Angel and Buffy's? Or am I missing something?
Please don't throw things at me for being slow on the uptake. So far almost all I've read makes me wish it had ended in S11.

It's not a stupid quesiton at all. There's so much chat about it, you could easily think it was Angel and Buffy's baby, but the truth is that no-one, except Joss and Gage know who's baby it is. All we got was the picture of Buffy holding the baby and people immediately saw the baby had brown eyes, so thought it was either Angel's baby with Buffy, or Dawn and Xander's baby ( which is why they're having a house warming, because they've had to move to a bigger place). But it's all guess work, no one really knows who's baby it is

TriBel
25-03-18, 08:37 PM
I love the robo-abortion storyline. Along with Dawn fading away, I think it's the best storyline in S9 and I understand why Whedon dealt with it like that. It's similar to the way Ted dealt with Buffy killing a human, without having to get bogged down in the politics of it, but just show the emotion. It worked for me, but I do understand that I am probably in the minority.

I liked it. I agree it was about the emotion but I also thought it had important things to say about the other and trans/post humanism - a debate that started in the TV series and was picked up in S11.

- - - Updated - - -


Oh dear. Can I ask a stupid question? And if it has indeed been clarified already I apologise.
How is it certain that the baby is Angel and Buffy's? Or am I missing something?
Please don't throw things at me for being slow on the uptake. So far almost all I've read makes me wish it had ended in S11.

What Priceless says. :)

Having spent the day in Manchester with all three of my lads (including my youngest who insisted on a selfie with a T-Rex) I'm just glad it's not mine! :err:

Priceless
25-03-18, 09:00 PM
I liked it. I agree it was about the emotion but I also thought it had important things to say about the other and trans/post humanism - a debate that started in the TV series and was picked up in S11.


Do you mean that in that Buffy was in robot form? Could you expand on that? (Not that I'll probably understand half of what you tell me :))

flow
25-03-18, 09:12 PM
debbicles
How is it certain that the baby is Angel and Buffy's?

There is no indication at all, that it is Angel`s and Buffy`s baby. Parents with blue and green eyes can have a baby with brown eyes. Joyce had brown eyes, by the way.

For all we know, it could be a baby, that Buffy has just saved. It could be a baby she and Spike have adoptetd. Buffy could have given birth to it in this dimension/timeline or another. It could be Dawn and Xanders baby. It could be Liam as a baby, while Buffy is time travelling. It could be someone`s baby in the future. It could be Willow`s baby.

But - have you looked at the hair ? The jaw line ? The fuller lower lip ? To me, this baby looks like William with brown eyes.

flow

DanSlayer
25-03-18, 09:21 PM
But - have you looked at the hair ? The jaw line ? The fuller lower lip ? To me, this baby looks like William with brown eyes.


Maury: You ARE the father!

GoSpuffy
25-03-18, 10:08 PM
I don't think we know who the baby belongs too but I could be wrong. I hope it's not Angel and Buffy's because that wouldn't make sense.

betta
25-03-18, 10:15 PM
Oh dear. Can I ask a stupid question? And if it has indeed been clarified already I apologise.
How is it certain that the baby is Angel and Buffy's? Or am I missing something?
Please don't throw things at me for being slow on the uptake. So far almost all I've read makes me wish it had ended in S11.

The baby has brown eyes, Angel is coming, Bangels think it's his. :p

BAF
25-03-18, 10:28 PM
The baby has brown eyes, Angel is coming, Bangels think it's his. :p

Speaking as a B/Aer,I still think the baby is Xander's and Dawn's.Just seems the simplest answer right now.

betta
25-03-18, 10:48 PM
Speaking as a B/Aer,I still think the baby is Xander's and Dawn's.Just seems the simplest answer right now.

Don't we all come up with much more complicated plots that they end up to be? ;)

And about the cover with all the "cast": are we certain that it's Faith, and not Dawn?

debbicles
26-03-18, 06:50 AM
TriBel, I'm pretty glad I'm long past the stage of having to go to play parks. I don't envy anyone having to go to those! Did Rexy pose nicely?

I spend far too much time thinking about this, probably more than is healthy for me. I haven't had the stomach to catch up fully with S8, but I have seen the indignation and anger caused by the Twilight story among Bangels. It's hard to miss and I think it's completely understandable. If Joss had played that nasty trick on my favourite relationship- again - I would be fuming.
But surely going back and pretending the last two seasons never happened would be the best way to disillusion your entire fan base and destroy trust in the writing process altogether? I suppose you could argue that to a certain extent that has happened already, at various stages, maybe even while the show was on air. Right now I'm pressed to think of examples but I'm sure someone can come up with a few.
So I'm throwing my hat in the ring here and speculating that maybe Joss wants us to realise we've seen a kind of fake Spike over the last two or three seasons? You know, one who doesn't enjoy food or going out to socialise? After all, that behaviour was out of character? It's not a nice thought. In fact I hate it. But I'm not sure I trust them anymore not to trample over everything I've come to appreciate so deeply.
Also, it could be that Buffy is not stranded alone - she could have Willow with her. Heck, she could have Spike - maybe that was what the exit sign in S11 was about? Sorry, Freaky, I know I've not read anything into this before but now I think it might be relevant.
Nobody except Buffy gets mentioned in the reveal of major plots. Doesn't mean she's alone or others are unaffected.
Oh dear, I swore to myself I'd never get sucked into the speculation vortex. And here I am.
:confused:

Not that I'm, like, you know, obsessed with Spike. No. Not in the least. :wub:
If it's fake Spike then they'd all be simulacra, wouldn't they?

flow
02-04-18, 04:40 PM
I believe, we are all worrying far too much.

There will be only four issues. They have to bring back Angel and Faith and have to explain, why Future Dark Willow is so sad. They will also have to have a story about a baby and maybe Fray will make an appearance.

I believe, they will keep it as simple as possible. The baby will probably not be Buffy`s. But maybe not even Xander`s and Dawn`s. I wouldn`t want them to have a baby, actually.

Maybe it could be Faith`s ? Or Willow`s and the reason, she is sad in the future is connected to that baby and they will change that or save the baby.

Fray could be travelling back in time. That would be simpler, than having all the scoobies travelling forth in time.

There might be a major character death, just to make us all sad, but it is hard to tell, who is going to get killed. It could be Giles, Xander, Dawn, Faith or Andrew. Probably not Buffy, because there will still be Buffy comics in the future and probably not Angel or Spike, because that would piss off the fandom.

Joss did not kill Xander in season 7, because he was too popular for it. Angel and Spike are still more popular than that.

They might break up Spuffy (I hope not), but there will be no Bangel. To bring back Bangel would take more than four issues. It simply žsn`t possible in a plausible storytelling way in such a short amount of time (or issues).

Those are my 2 cents ;-) .

flow

betta
06-04-18, 01:41 AM
This is what we have in S8 Time of Your Life:

https://i.imgur.com/a5okhAr.jpg

Not that it simplifies things for me... :confused3:

American Aurora
06-04-18, 06:19 AM
From even a cursory look at the scene, it seems clear to me that the baby is not Buffy’s baby. The dialogue doesn’t read like that at all. In my opinion, it’s just a fakeout. Could be Sam and Riley’s baby for all we know. Probably Xander and Dawn’s kid. Or even a random character’s kid like Amy or Connor or Kennedy or Andrew or Fray. Who knows?

To be honest, I’m tired of Whedon making such a big deal about Buffy having a child or being pregnant and all these fake outs. Who cares? Does Batman sit around worrying whether he has a kid or not? It’s kinda sexist as if the center of a woman’s life has to be children. It’s not like it was a particular obsession of Buffy’s on the show - so why all the constant hoo-hawing about it?

Jeez, just reading Time of your Life with Dawn as the centaur and skinless Warren swearing at Angel in a stupid mask makes me want to swear off reading the comics ever again. Season Eight had snappy dialogue, sure, but also had a lot of excessively preposterous scenarios. Space sex, gah! Spike in a bug ship, ugh! And too many “I was a double-agent” plotlines for my taste. And Buffy and Willow seem to have gotten major boob jobs and de-aged to about fifteen between Season Seven and Eight. NOT a fan of the artist.

I guess we’re going to learn how Willow becomes Dark Willow 2 and why it was necessary for Buffy to kill her. Which would be interesting. Perhaps we’ll even get a glimpse into Buffy’s future and learn what will happen to her and the gang. Perhaps we’ll learn something really interesting - perhaps Willow hadn’t turned evil at all, but had sacrificed her own life by turning into Dark Willow in order to save the future. It’ll be great if it connects with the Giles comic.

But I hope it’s not some lead into multiple universes in which many corporate reboots boldly go where everyone has gone before. This reboot mania where multiple universes are concerned is the biggest cop-out I can think of next to prequels and endless sequels. Milk that cash cow dry!

Hopefully, if Whedon is really going to “reboot” the series, he’ll either start all over again from scratch or simply start from NFA and go from there, throwing out all the comic continuity altogether. Spike and Angel will either have been shanshued or will have extensive special effects work for wrinkles and age spots during their special guest appearances. Or maybe a diet of pig/otter ages the hell out of you. Or Willow has cast a spell in which they simply “look” like they’re aging to make Buffy feel less ancient. Who knows?

If they keep the comic continuity, then the show will be a “next generation” type of thing which will also be set-up in this comic and Spike will probably have become human. We’ll just have to wait and see.

The easier task would be to reboot altogether. Which is where I fear all this temporal crap is going to end up.

Or maybe they’re all just in Buffy’s “Twilight” snow globe that she plays with in the asylum.

TriBel
06-04-18, 09:20 AM
This is what we have in S8 Time of Your Life:

https://i.imgur.com/a5okhAr.jpg

Not that it simplifies things for me... :confused3:

This is how I understand it.

In the West, we experience time as a single line. We conceive of the past as "behind us" and we're moving towards the future. The timeline is what Willow's drawing. We've developed a number of metaphors to describe this experience - in fact, they don't as much describe the experience as create the experience. We "look forward" to tomorrow. We "look back" with regret. Not all cultures have these metaphors - hence they experience time differently. One of the most influential books on metaphor is George Lakoff's Metaphors we live by. Sidebar - Lakoff had a research assistant in the 90s - a certain Jane Espenson :o. The timeline tends to be teleological. We perceive of it as moving progressively forward towards some sort of redemption. This "future" though is often the past projected in front of us as something to aspire to or desire. So, Christianity tends to think of Heaven (in front of us) as Paradise (which "historically" is "behind us"). Think of the way Andrew conceived of Heaven. Isn't this how prophecy or destiny works? Think of Twilight.

In real life you can't change the past - every event that happened is singular and unique. You can however change history because the past and history are two different things. "The Past" is what happened to every single person who's ever existed anywhere in the world (the event is the pebble). History is what we know of the past - generally what is recorded of the past. It's why Giles is so anxious to recover the books when the Council is destroyed. You can change history by adding to it (as the Guardian did with the Scythe) or by recovering lost or repressed memories (as Spike did in LMPTM, as Angel has just done in A11). If you recover knowledge of the past you can change your understanding of the past and change your future trajectory - this history or knowledge, repercussions known or unknown are the ripples). You can also change history by rethinking cause and effect. Some events can blast the world out of the continuum it appears set on. The messianic moment is one of these. https://ceasefiremagazine.co.uk/walter-benjamin-messianism-revolution-theses-history/ One of the easiest ways of figuring the messianic is through the birth of a new Messiah (duh!).*

Fiction - particularly of the fantasy genre has the edge over reality since it can literally bring people back from the dead and/or they can literally live forever. Most of the time we can only do this linguistically or conceptually (as in The Killer Inside - Willow was keeping Tara alive by remembering her - she was alive in her head. Forgetting her was killing her again).

What interests me about that particular segment is a) Willow's assertion that we're not playing Pictionary (we're always playing Pictionary when images are involved. In fact, "Pictionary" and the difference between what we saw and what was said was central to S7) and b) why she uses the phrase "clam up" while drawing something that looks like a crab or a spider. :confused:

I've always thought Spike was the "anomaly" because of the number of "mothers" he had (his real mother, his demon mother, Dru) and his alignment with the feminine (the "feminine" and the "mother" are complex literary tropes) but now - IDK.

Re: Giles mini-series. We've talked about Roux's name - it's pronounced roo - or rue. The difference between speech and writing is a characteristic of Fray. Is Giles going to do something he'll regret?

*I'm not suggesting Whedon's read Benjamin (although there's every chance he has) but I've just found this:"Elsewhere he metaphorises it as pulling a stop-chord on a runaway train – the present system is a train with broken brakes, speeding towards disaster, and the messianic moment is like a stop-chord. In another passage, history is awakened with a slap born of long-contained frustration, not a kiss". The latter seems a feasible scenario for BtVS. :)

That's it - that's all I've got.:blink: Not sure I understand it myself. :sadwalk:

KingofCretins
06-04-18, 12:57 PM
I don't fear a reboot; I fear what they'll do with it. I don't fear the campaign setting; I fear the dungeon master.