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View Full Version : Who wants to rewatcht season 3 BtVS with me ?



flow
18-02-18, 11:28 AM
Hello,

I have been planning on a season 3 rewatch for a long time now. It is probably the season, I care and know about the least. But I want to give it a new chance. I have to admit, that, one fact, that keeps from rewatching, is, that Spike is in only in one of 22 Episodes.....:err:.

But still - I really want to rewatch it.

As RL is quiete demanding at the moment and I am also trying to catch up with the fanfic reading group, I was thinking, we could agree on one day per week, where we watch maybe two episodes. Depending on the time-zones, we could even try to watch at approximately the same time and post our thoughts here.

Is there anybody, who would like to join me ?

flow

Priceless
18-02-18, 11:43 AM
I'll definitely join in. I'm sort of doing a rewatch for the Positives/Negatives thread, but it's such a good season I'm happy to expand on my thoughts here :D

Sosa lola
18-02-18, 04:23 PM
I'll try to join as well. :)

GoSpuffy
18-02-18, 05:11 PM
I'm currently doing a rewatch and I just hit school hard, yeah Spike! I'll read your posts but I don't think I can catch up. I'm trying to do something different for me. I'm trying to watch Buffy and Angel as they aired with no skipping. I only saw Angel once from beginning to end. I've seen S5 lots of times as I sort of view it as Buffy S8. Usually I skip around and leave off episodes but I don't want to see but I want the full buffy experience again, like the first time but with Angel added in

Fool for Buffy
18-02-18, 05:18 PM
It will depend on the times. But if it works out I’d be happy to join you.

flow
18-02-18, 07:32 PM
Hey, that is great ! Thank you for joining me. If everyone else is interested, please join us as well !

I`d suggest, that we pick a day in the week, for watching. Maybe you could all just give me a shout, which day would suit you. I could watch either Monday, Wednesday or Thursday.

Agreeing on a time is probably more difficult. What about 20:00 UTC ? If it won`t work, we will just watch on the same day but on different times.

flow

Priceless
18-02-18, 11:10 PM
I won't be able to commit to any particular day or time as I work an odd and changeable shift pattern. But I will try and not fall too far behind :D

Stoney
19-02-18, 02:49 PM
I'm doing two rewatches at the moment, the one with the rewatch group and one with my mum (it's her first time viewing!). We're up to the season 2 finale in that one, which we'll watch next week. So I'm not likely to catch up or have time around the S6 rewatch here/reading group/'real' life to join in sadly.

flow
19-02-18, 06:46 PM
Okay, then let`s just watch two episodes a week and everyone watches and Posts as his RL schedule allows it.

As today is Monday, we can get this started now, which means, the epiosdes for thgis week are

1. Anne

2. Dead Man`s Party

Let`s go to work !

flow

Stoney
19-02-18, 09:31 PM
If you're interested, here (http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?19870-BtVS-rewatch-SEASON-3) is the thread for the S3 rewatch. The reviews for each ep are linked under the spoiler at the bottom of the first post. I may well lurk and nosey at your thoughts on the eps as you go along. :biggrin1:

Priceless
19-02-18, 10:27 PM
Are we posting our thoughts here or on the S3 re-watch thread?

Stoney
20-02-18, 05:25 AM
Are we posting our thoughts here or on the S3 re-watch thread?

Sorry, I wasn't trying to steer you to go to the previous rewatch thread for chatting about it. I just popped the link on incase any of you wanted to take a quick look at the reviews. :)

Priceless
21-02-18, 09:42 AM
Anne

Not sure how we're doing this, so I'm just going to put my thoughts down as I'm watching . . .

Willow's in a leather coat, which doesn't seem very Willowy, but I guess she's trying to be more like Buffy. I love that the three of them are fighting the vamps and not doing a completely terrible job. They really are brave and are putting their lives on the line without any back-up.

Buffy/Angel on the beach starts off sweet, but only works to show how guilty Buffy feels. Then we see her all alone in the big city. The guy in the diner calls her Peaches, which always makes me think of Spike, as that's one of his names for Angel. Buffy is trying to do 'normal', a constant refrain in her life, and we see she can't actually do it

I love Lily in this episode, and how Buffy helps her turn her life around. I like any episode where Buffy is successful at something other than killing and she can affect the world just by being in it and being herself.

I don't understand why Willow is so upset that Oz has to repeat a year. Her best friend is Xander who is written as academically challenged, and she doesn't mind him not being the cleverest guy in the room, so I don't understand why she's being so judgemental.

Buffy is so sad, and her hair is horrible. Wonder if the hair was a conscious decision by the production team; Buffy wants to punish herself, so stops taking the best care of herself and ruins her hair (she did similar in S6, though I liked the short hair)

Giles rushes off to investigate another sighting of Buffy and Xander very perceptively says she'll be found when she wants to be found. Giles is rushing around because he feels some responsibility, but Xander can be more logical because although he feels the loss of his friend, his emotions aren't bound up in feelings of guilt about her running away. I think Willow is probably feeling some guilt too, about the spell not working and her not being able to help. I guess none of them know about the note Joyce left or the argument they had prior to Buffy leaving.

The demon is called Ken and I wonder if they resurrected that name later for Kennedy :)

Willow and Xander chat at the Bronze and Willow is centred on Buffy while Xander's mind is on Cordy and I think that again goes to show how they are dealing differently with Buffy being missing.

I love the scene of Joyce blaming Giles. I think she's spot on. Giles did council Buffy not to tell her mum the truth about herself. I'm not actually sure how I feel about Giles here. He calls Buffy a 'most capable child', he emphasises the word 'child' so at once reducing Buffy, making her childish, childlike etc. He doesn't call her a capable young woman or a capable person, he sees her as a child. He has a habit of calling her a child when she's doing something he doesn't approve of, but this might also just be him grandstanding his guilt and trying to show Joyce how badly he feels. But if he truly does think of her as a child, then telling her not to tell her mum the truth about herself is so much worse and kind of creepy for a middle-aged man to want to keep secrets between himself and a child.

Joyce of course has to take some of the blame, but I agree with everything she says 'You've been this huge influence on her, guiding her. You had this whole relationship with her behind my back. I feel like you've taken her away from me.' If Giles hadn't been so influential, maybe Buffy and Joyce's relationship would have been so much better.

I can't say I'm really invested in Buffy's adventure in LA . . . I don't care about Rickie or the mystery surrounding the missing/aging people. For me this is the weakness in the episode, and makes Anne one of my least favourite opening episodes. Maybe we're meant to see some similarity between Buffy and Lily and their situations? But it doesn't work for me because we know this isn't really Buffy, or if it is, if she is suffering from ptsd and depression, she's been suffering since Prophecy Girl.

Like angry Buffy pulling the phone off the wall.

Xander is pretty horrible to Cordy, joking about how he'd rejoice if a vampire killed her, when she's out there trying to help. I don't think she'd done anything so bad as to deserve being spoken to like that.

The episode picks up a lot when we go into the demon hell dimension. Once Buffy can kick some demon ass she's soon back to her normal snarky self. She realises wallowing isn't helping her and I admire her and Lily for both wanting to change and be/do better.

I'd like to think Buffy did call and check up on Anne now and again, at least for a little while.

TimeTravellingBunny
21-02-18, 02:07 PM
It's the exact opposite for me - I absolutely loved everything about the LA part of the story, while the Sunnydale part is what I find to be meh. My favourite opener is either this one or Bargaining. Buffy also has a full character arc in this episode - more than can be said about the rest of the season.

Sure, Buffy comes back eventually, but that doesn't mean there are no similarities between her situation and Lily's or any other kids. Many runaways probably do have families ir guardians, but they are exactly who they are running away. It could be abusive families, but there is also some of those kids were thrown out, maybe just because of who they are: for instance, if some of those kids are LGBT teend who came out to their parents and the parents couldn't deal with it and threw them out or made the life for them unbearable, that would be quite similar to Joyce throwing Buffy out after learning she is a Slayer. Joyce does come around soon, but that may also be the case with some of the other kids' parents, unbeknownst to the kids - they may be regretting their behaviour.

Regarding Chanterelle/Lily/Anne herself, I tend to think she has an abusive background (which also foreshadows Faith - though in terms of personality and how they deal with it, they are completely different). She is clearly running away from something, and it feels more serious and permanent than with Buffy. She doesn't want to talk about her family and she doesn't want to use her real name. We never even find out what her real name is. She has obviously been desperately looking for connection and belonging - whether as a part of that vampire wannabe cult, another cult she mentions being a part of IIRC, or the romantic relationship with Rickie. She says Rickie was "taking care" of her, so it seemed codependent - she was not used to being independent and making it on her own, but she tries to from this point on, taking inspiration from Buffy and calling herself Anne. We know this is the name she retains, and that she eventually succeeds and becomes someone taking care of others in need.

Speaking of names, she says Rickie named her "Lily" because of a song. I think it may be "Lily (My One and Only)" by Smashing Pumpkins from the album Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness, which came out in 1995.

Priceless
22-02-18, 04:13 PM
Dead Man's Party

Buffy and Joyce are so awkward together, but I'm glad Joyce is now in the loop and knows what's going on at last.

Bit of foreshadowing here 'it's all fun and games till someone loses an eye' Buffy tells Xander.

Really enjoy the scoobies keeping Sunnydale safe, fighting vamps while the slayer is away. None of them seem particularly happy at her return, where are the hugs? Xander does all the talking, where's Willow in this? She doesn't speak until she brags about their slaying prowess and doesn't directly speak to Buffy until Buffy speaks to her. Her silence speaks volumes, she's as angry as hell :D

Giles' little moment in the kitchen is sweet. Snyder is wonderful, he's so sarcastic and mean and he does a little foreshadowing of his own 'I head Hotdog On A Stick is hiring, and you'll look so cute in that hat' . . . wonder if it's as cute as the DMP hat she does eventually have to wear.

Then Willow stands Buffy up. I hate this. It's so effin passive aggressive and mean spirited and just vile. I don't care who Willow skins, this is the worst thing she's ever done in my eyes.

Pat's a charmer. After listening to Buffering podcast all I can think is that she and Joyce were lovers and 'book club' is some sort of code.

Buffy's dream - what does wandering around an empty school mean? She's obviously having trouble settling back in.

Can't help but love Oz's classic 'chock full of hoot just a little bit of nanny'

Why don't the scoobies want to talk about it? I've never understood why they just didn't ask Buffy what the hell happened. This is the problem with the scoobies, always afraid of hurting each other. So we get Buffy laying the table for a nice refined dinner, and the scoobs planning a hootenanny, showing how out of sync they are. Willow refuses to be honest, even when Buffy questions her and it's so annoying! Just be honest, Buffy can take it.

Now we get Buffy overhearing half of Joyce's conversation, a misunderstanding to move the plot along which is just silly and feels like bad writing, especially when added to the scoobies not wanting to push Buffy. Even Cordy, or all people, doesn't ask questions or push for details, and Cordy really doesn't care how hurt Buffy's feelings might get. It's just a set up for the big fight.

Buffy and Willow finally fight, but Willow sounds so selfish, as though she was only missing Buffy becasue she needed Buffy there to listen to all her woes and worries. Hey Willow, what about your best friend who ran away, want to ask her anything?

Giles breaks the tensions with his 'Americans' delivery, which is wonderful.

Then we get back to arguing. Everyone is so angry, and no one asks Buffy why she's behaving in the way she is, they all just want to blame her. I know they're hurting too, but really, where is the compassion.

Giles breaks the tension again by hot wiring a car! Way to go Ripper! Zombies attack. Joyce must be a miracle worker, that house is a complete mess. Ripper threatens Snyder which is such a great moment and you can feel the violence in Giles just below the surface.

Then we see Willow talking about herself and forgiving Buffy, without once asking Buffy anything about her time away, why she ran, what she did, how she felt, NOTHING. I hate Willow in this episode, I swear we see Dark Willow just below the surface in the same way we see Ripper in this . . . I think S6 was probably built on these very foundations :D

flow
22-02-18, 09:40 PM
Okay, Anne, let´s get this started:

Willow´s leather jacket looks like it is a leftover from the seventies. But I like the sad undertone in the scoobies conversation and that Willow is hoping, Buffy will come back tomorrow, just because school starts, despite the fact, Buffy has been kicked out of school.

Cordy is being so insecure about how her reunion with Xander will work out. That is cute. I don`t know, why there are people out there, who hate her character (although I haven`t seen AtS 1-4 yet and might change my mind about her after that).

I think Joyce has a point here by blaming Giles. Although she was the one, who kicked Buffy out, Giles did have a a relationship behind Joyce`s back with Buffy and he used his influence on her, to hide Buffys calling and his own role in her life from Joyce. When Buffy wanted to confide into Joyce in season 2 he advised against it. Had Joyce learnt about Buffys calling in a situation, where Buffy could have been able, to talk to her about it instead of having to leave to prevent an apocalypse, things might have turned out very differently. Joyce did accept Buffy`s calling after Buffy returned.

Buffy: "I just suck at Undercover"...that line is so hilarious ;-)

I love the idea of that hell dimension with 100 years passing there in one day of our earth time and I like Ken the demon much better than Ken the preacher, but what the heck are all the human slaves working at down there ?

That was it, now I am off, to have some fun at Dead Man`s Party:

Woah, that is a huge cross, Xander is wearing around his neck. I don`t like Buffy`s trousers at all.

It is sad, that Giles can only show his emotion and happiness, when he is alone in the kitchen to fetch the tea. It would have meant a lot to Buffy, could she have seen it.

Oh, Willow just stood Buffy up. That is not nice.

This won`t be the last time, Buffy is going to dig a grave in her own yard.

Xander puts the finger in the wound. They should rather be talking, than having dinner or a party.

Pricey, we have been talking about the pictures on the stairway in Revello Drive some time ago. I think, this is the closest, I have ever seen them. There are four pictures hanging on the wall and they all show a closed door.

Hi Jonathan by the way, I am glad, that you are good with your dip.

Ah, we get another glimpse in Giles` dark past. Interesting, that he can hot wire a car just as good as Spike can...one more thing, those two have in common.

Joyce can handle a baseball bat as well as a fire axe.

But in the end, when the demons were defeated, the scoobies still did not talk. Not really. Willow talked a bit of her witchcraft issues and blamed Buffy again for leaving Sunnydale, but that was it. Buffy did not get a chance, to tell, what she went through and what happened at the mansion.

When I hear people complain, how OOC the rift between the four core in season 7 was, I always ask myself, if those people have a different DVD for season 3, than I have. The rift was already there in season 3. It even started back in season 2. The scene in Empty Places is just a fall out of what happened in the early years.

I hope, there will be some more, who will be re-watching Anne and Dead Man`s Party with us ?

flow

Priceless
23-02-18, 02:52 PM
e. I don`t know, why there are people out there, who hate her character (although I haven`t seen AtS 1-4 yet and might change my mind about her after that).

You won't :D Cordy is brilliant in AtS 1 - 3, it's only is S4 that her character is destroyed. Are you going to watch AtS at some point? I'd love to hear what you think


Pricey, we have been talking about the pictures on the stairway in Revello Drive some time ago. I think, this is the closest, I have ever seen them. There are four pictures hanging on the wall and they all show a closed door.


Yes I always look whenever we get a close up of the stairs. It's good to see them there, just as Buffy is walking back into their lives. I should maybe start a 'Picture Watch' thread so we can mention every episode they're in :)


When I hear people complain, how OOC the rift between the four core in season 7 was, I always ask myself, if those people have a different DVD for season 3, than I have. The rift was already there in season 3. It even started back in season 2. The scene in Empty Places is just a fall out of what happened in the early years.


Very much agree with you here. These feelings will stay with the characters and move into later seasons with them. I don't believe in OOC, it's that everything that happens builds a new part of your character

flow
26-02-18, 04:12 PM
A new week has started and

Faith, Hope & Trick

and

Beauty and the Beasts

are up for rewatching this week. I am looking forward to hearing your thoughts !

flow

Priceless
27-02-18, 10:29 AM
Faith Hope & Trick

Great Willow moment to open, she's really not a rule breaker is she. Who in the world did this picnic thing at school? Anyone?

We get out first sighting of Scott Hope, the representation of normal for Buffy. Normal just seems so dull in the Buffyverse.

Mr Trick is far more interesting, and I like that he calls out the lack of diversity in Sunnydale. Pity the writers didn't take more note of this and try harder to remedy it.

Poor Buffy and her slayer dream, everynight she dreams of killing him . . . (echoed in S6 by Spike's every night he dreamt of saving her - sorry had to get some Spuffy in here somehow :D)

The two middle-aged men are getting it in the neck from the women. Snyder and Giles are both brilliant. I like that Giles is trying to get Buffy to talk about killing Angel. I think he really does care about her and want to help her. I think he knows that the spell worked, because he knows Willow and what a perfectionist she is maybe?

Willow is already a little obsessed with magic. She is already showing a little arrogance about her knowledge and power. We also see her meddling in Buffy's love life, something she'll also do with Parker and Riley, and partly why Buffy feels she can't confide in her about Spike.

I have to admit I've never liked Faith. I hate how she grabs the stake out of Buffy's hand when we first meet her. She's a taker and why is she out slaying without a stake anyway? Does she already have that slayer-death-wish or is she just an idiot? And straight away she's lying about why she's here and what happened to her watcher. She seems very happy even though she's been through the trauma of seeing her watcher die. She's not to be trusted! :p

Willow has a crush on Giles :o

I totally understand and sympathise with Buffy's jealousy about Faith. She's horrible and no-one else seems to recognise it. Buffy knows there's something else going on there, and Faith isn't being real. I repeat, she's not to be trusted!

Buffy tries to tell Giles that Faith isn't well, but he doesn't believe her. She's the one who links Faith and Kakistos arriving at the same time. It seems that everyone is giving Fatih too much benefit of the doubt.

Buster bloody Keaton!! Do teenagers really want to watch silent movies? And the claddagh ring. They've not even been on their first date and Scott is giving Buffy a ring. It's just silly. Giles sees Buffy's reaction to the ring and he's now certain Angel's death wasn't so simple as Buffy is saying.

Buffy isn't being honest about Angel and Faith isn't being honest about her watcher. Both are lies of omission, but Faith's lie brings death and destruction and puts others at risk and Buffy's lie only hurts herself.

Finally the truth about Faith comes out. Buffy feels vindicated but tries to help Faith. I have to say ED's acting isn't the greatest. I might have more sympathy if she could portray Faith's emotions more believably. I do enjoy Kakistos staking though.

The scene in the library is my favourite in the episode. Buffy is finally open and honest about Angel's death. It's a lovely moving low-key scene from SMG. Willow jumps in straight away with 'magic will fix everything' but Giles says there is no spell and Willow realises that it's all about helping Buffy psychologically and magic shouldn't be used for that. We know how well she learnt that lesson.

Buffy tries to fix herself by asking Scott out an that loser agrees. Her last act on the road to recovery is to give back Angel's claddagh ring. But of course the PTB have other ideas . . . welcome back naked Angel

flow
27-02-18, 09:01 PM
Faith, Hope and Trick:

The german title for this episode is "Neue Freunde, Neue Feinde", which means "New friends, new enemies", and Shows you, how boring and uninspirational the german translation/synchronization for BtVS was.

What exactly is that bad thing, Buffy does with her mouth ?

I am usually not an envious person, but whoa, if I could have Faith`s looks. I`d kill for her looks. Maybe I could just have her eyes, her lips and her hair. Maybe just the hair. Just a tiny bit of that hair ? Please ?

I am sad to say, I have to disagree with you, Pricey, here. I think, Faith is just great. Character, actress, fighting style, cool attitude - I can even feel her grief and guilt about not being able to save her watcher.

Mr. Trick is the most intersting - no, the only interesting - vampire, we have met since Spike. I am trying to remember, if we will meet any other witty and intelligent vampires during the next four and a half seasons. I don`t really think so. The only other vampire, who will show up and is not one-dimensional, badly dressed and all fanged out, will probably be Harmony.

Buffy finally comes around about what happened to Angel and that the the soul restoring spell did work. Yet, Buffy still does not know, that Willow sent her a message about trying the spell once again. And she won`t find out for another four years.....

Ughhh...I don`t fancy naked Angel. He really needs clothes. :D

flow

Priceless
27-02-18, 11:47 PM
Mr. Trick is the most intersting - no, the only interesting - vampire, we have met since Spike. I am trying to remember, if we will meet any other witty and intelligent vampires during the next four and a half seasons. I don`t really think so. The only other vampire, who will show up and is not one-dimensional, badly dressed and all fanged out, will probably be Harmony.


The only one I can think of is Holden Webster, the psych student from CWDP.


Buffy finally comes around about what happened to Angel and that the the soul restoring spell did work. Yet, Buffy still does not know, that Willow sent her a message about trying the spell once again. And she won`t find out for another four years.....


And by the time they bring it up again, it doesn't matter at all. That's life, the things that were important once, with the passage of time, become inconsequential. I think it was an amazing way for the show to handle something that had been hanging over Xander's head for years.


I am sad to say, I have to disagree with you, Pricey, here. I think, Faith is just great. Character, actress, fighting style, cool attitude - I can even feel her grief and guilt about not being able to save her watcher.

I could never get on the Faith train. I didn't like her the moment she snatched that stake out of Buffy's hand. Even now, when she's well on the road to redemption and has helped Buffy countless times, I'm still not a fan.


Ughhh...I don`t fancy naked Angel. He really needs clothes.

He's not as beautiful as Spike, I'll give you that :D

flow
28-02-18, 08:58 PM
It is time for Beauty and the Beasts :

I hate Buffy`s outfits this season. The only nice piece of clothing, she has been wearing so far, was the dress at the party in Dead Man`s Party.

I also dislike those little flowers and butterflies, she is constantly wearing in her hair. That would be suitable for a seven year old, not a seventeen year old.

Scott is a nice guy and in his own way even cute, but I don`t see any chemistry between him and Buffy. They have only dated a few times, but they already give the impression of a couple, that is very bored of each other and does not have sex anymore.

Angel has found trousers but no shirt - what a pity :-(

Giles: "In my experience, there are... two types of
monster. The first, uh, can be redeemed, or more importantly, wants to
be redeemed.....The second is void of humanity, cannot respond to reason... or
love."

Awwww, Giles, sometimes you just hit the nail on the head....

It os so sad, that the only person, Buffy feels, she can talk to, is a dead shrink.

Oh, I love that line ! "Bloody Priceless"....that`s your line, pricey :wub:

Okay, this was a solid episode, but nothing much, to write home about.

flow

Priceless
28-02-18, 09:06 PM
It os so sad, that the only person, Buffy feels, she can talk to, is a dead shrink

That's the first dead shrink Buffy talks to, the second one is in Season 7's CWDP

flow
01-03-18, 04:42 PM
After rethinking my reviw of Beauty And The Beasts, I have to add some thoughts about the scene, where Angel kills demon!Pete.

First of all, how could Buffy have been so sloppy, as to not chain Angel up properly ? He could have been really dangerous. He could have hurt or even killed somebody (well, somebody else except for demon!Pete). Her feelings for Angel blinded her judgement and made her put everybody elses life at risk. People, who were not even aware of that risk, because they did not know, that Angel was back and feral.

Okay, I am being a bit sarcastic here. But I have heard so many times, how reckless Buffy behaved, when she chained Spike up properly in season 7, while everybody around knew about him and the trigger. Is this just another case of double standard ?

I don`t really hold the sloppy chaining business against Buffy. After all, we are all just human. Even the slayers amongst us.

But here is my real problem with this episode:

Angels escapes his chains, runs straight to the highschool and finds the room, where demon!Pete has cornered Buffy in an instant.

How did Angel know, Buffy, where he would find Buffy and that she needed his help ? And why for gods sake is Buffy portrayed as the damsel in distress, who does not stand a chance against one simple demon and has to be saved by Angel from impending death ? This show is about Buffy being the Slayer. Shouldn`t she have been able, to fight demon!Pete off herself ? Couldn`t they have at least let them fight demon!Pete together ? Buffy is standing in a corner, as if she has never ever before seen a demon, let alone fought and killed dozens of them.

My guess is, that they shoved Buffy aside and pushed Angel in the limelight, to get the message through, that Angel is now a goodie two shoe again and that all his actions, while being soulless, including the murder of Jenny Calendar, are forgiven

I am completely okay, with the solution, the writers forced upon us. Angel is good again. Hey, fine with me. But I strongly dislike that they beliitled Buffys fighting abilities, to do that.

flow

vampmogs
02-03-18, 08:07 AM
First of all, how could Buffy have been so sloppy, as to not chain Angel up properly ? He could have been really dangerous. He could have hurt or even killed somebody (well, somebody else except for demon!Pete). Her feelings for Angel blinded her judgement and made her put everybody elses life at risk. People, who were not even aware of that risk, because they did not know, that Angel was back and feral.

Okay, I am being a bit sarcastic here. But I have heard so many times, how reckless Buffy behaved, when she chained Spike up properly in season 7, while everybody around knew about him and the trigger. Is this just another case of double standard?

It's not a double standard. In S7 Buffy let triggered Spike roam free around the house in episodes like Potential, First Date, Get it Done and Storyteller. Spike could have attacked the group when Buffy was out on a date with Principal Wood, or when she was trapped in the First Slayer's time dimension, or when she was out at work, and she wouldn't have been there to stop him. In fact, in The Killer In Me it actually Spike that insists that he tries to keep himself chained up as much as possible whilst Buffy tries to argue that he's been fine and acts as if he's being overly cautious. This was all whilst the trigger was still active and Spike could have attacked at any moment. So it's actually incorrect to even credit Buffy with chaining Spike up when she didn't think he even needed to be.

You can accuse Buffy of being reckless for underestimating Angel's strength (she did tie him up properly it's just that Angel manages to break the metal bar she had tied him to) but then that's also true of when she tied Spike to a chair with nothing but ropes in Never Leave Me and he managed to break free from them and tear a chunk out of Andrew's neck. But she at the very least understood that Angel could pose a danger to people and had enough common sense to keep him chained up. In S7 she behaves very recklessly by allowing Spike to roam around the house unchained, especially when she wasn't home, and she does very little to investigate the trigger and try and cure him.


How did Angel know, Buffy, where he would find Buffy and that she needed his help?

The same way Angel (or Spike) have always found Buffy? He's a vampire. He can smell and track her.


And why for gods sake is Buffy portrayed as the damsel in distress, who does not stand a chance against one simple demon and has to be saved by Angel from impending death ? This show is about Buffy being the Slayer. Shouldn`t she have been able, to fight demon!Pete off herself ? Couldn`t they have at least let them fight demon!Pete together ? Buffy is standing in a corner, as if she has never ever before seen a demon, let alone fought and killed dozens of them.

I feel this is an exaggeration. Firstly, there's really nothing in that scene to suggest Buffy was facing "impending death" or needed "saving" by Angel. Buffy fights Pete in the library and clearly has the upper hand. He briefly has the upper-hand against her in their second fight but you'll notice that Buffy kicks Pete away from her moments before Angel interrupted. There's really not anything to suggest that had Angel not burst into the room that Buffy would have lost that fight. Secondly, Buffy isn't standing in the corner as if she's "never seen a demon before." She's standing in the corner completely shocked that Angel has a) appeared out nowhere, b) is acting so viciously and, c) is trying to protect her. The shock of what she is witnessing is understandable and reasonable under the circumstances.

And even if Angel had "come to her rescue", this would be nothing new for the show? Buffy has had other characters intervene and save her life on numerous occasions. Joyce saved her from Spike in Schoolhard, Xander saved her from Theresa in Phases, Faith saved her from Mr Trick in Consequences, Willow saved her from the demon in The Wish, Riley saved her from the punk vampire in Fool For Love, Angel saved her from Caleb in End of Days etc. She was no more a "damsel" in those scenes than she would have been here.


My guess is, that they shoved Buffy aside and pushed Angel in the limelight, to get the message through, that Angel is now a goodie two shoe again and that all his actions, while being soulless, including the murder of Jenny Calendar, are forgiven

Or they didn't know how to resolve the Pete subplot and felt uncomfortable with the idea of Buffy killing him (given that he was a student and not so much a "demon" as a science experiment gone wrong) and that Angel killing him was a convenient way of the writer's getting rid of Pete, resolving the episode's plot, having Angel demonstrate his desire to help Buffy, and keep Buffy's hand's clean from Pete's death...

flow
02-03-18, 09:18 AM
The same way Angel (or Spike) have always found Buffy? He's a vampire. He can smell and track her.


That`s right, but I meant to say "How come, he knew, that it was important, to smell and track her?" Shortly before he does not even seem to recognise her and suddenly he goes "Hey, I got to break my chains and instantly find Buffy, because I know she is in danger ?" For all he knew, she could have been making out with Scott in that room and than he would have looked rather stupid, if he had burst into it.

I want to clarify, that I am not trying to bash Angel here. I really like his character. . I just feel, he has been used as a deus ex machina in this scene. It seems a bit unexplained, why he looked for Buffy in the first place.


There's really not anything to suggest that had Angel not burst into the room that Buffy would have lost that fight.

That is exactly my problem. She did not really need his help. Yet he bursts in and fight away her attacker although she would have been able to do that herself. It would have been more plausible, if she had been knocked out unconscious. There is nothing wrong with being knocked out. It happens to Giles all the time.

Or, I would have liked the scene better, if they had at least fought together. That is a huge difference to the scene in End of Days, that you mentioned. He does help her with Caleb, but she finishes the job herself.


Or they didn't know how to resolve the Pete subplot and felt uncomfortable with the idea of Buffy killing him

That is actually a good point, given, that Pete and Buffy knew each other and Pete was the best friend of Buffy`s boyfriend. It would have been weird, had she killed him, even if he was a demon at that moment. Which leads to the question, if she would actually have gone through with killing him.

flow

flow

Priceless
02-03-18, 09:53 AM
Beauty And The Beasts

I like the reading of Call of the Wild it's very atmospheric.

Xander goes from gay panic to purient father, demanding of Willow 'which half' of Oz has she handled. He's one mixed up kid and I sometimes wish they had made him gay/bi rather than Willow. I also have to say he looks really good in this episode, not sure it it's the t-shirt or the hair or what.

Then we have Faith over interested in Buffy's sex life. She's not got a very positive view of men, and for this show I pretty much agree with her :D They have not aged very well into the 21st century.

Mr Platt seems like a good guy, it's a shame Buffy couldn't be truly honest with him, it might have helped her in the long run.

Buffy's shock at seeing Angel again is great. Poor Buffy, just when she's getting her life back on track. DB is great as a snarling animal. But where did he get those trousers?

The morgue scene irritates me because Will, Xan and Cordy have seen so much horror in the last two years, their reactions to this body just seem over the top. Willow fainting is just ridiculous. We know a dead body that's been mauled is grotesque, we don't need this bad writing to force the point.

Pete and Debbie are incredibly unimportant to this episode, only there so the killer wasn't Angel or Oz. But their unimportance undermines the 'domestic abuse' story line which is a shame because it's such an important subject that I wish the show could have looked at it with more more depth and subtlety. Debbie rocking madly and repeating 'he does love me he does love me' is too silly.

Giles getting shot with the tranq is one of the funniest things the show ever did and ASH delivery of 'bloody priceless' is wonderful.

For me, Angel killing Pete was just his instinct as a beast at work. He'd protect Buffy no matter what, and he was too weak and disorientated to stop himself. I think he can be seen as both a literal beast and as Faith's 'men are all beasts' in this instant because both versions are at play within Angel right then. Only with Pete's death does he finally stop being bestial.

The way Angel falls to his knees, clinging to Buffy and Buffy's reaction are beautiful. I love how the scene opens up to show the two dead lovers. Are we meant to think that this is what love does, so Buffy be careful with this Angel. Or that the Buffy/Angel relationship is forged in death.

vampmogs
02-03-18, 10:18 AM
That`s right, but I meant to say "How come, he knew, that it was important, to smell and track her?" Shortly before he does not even seem to recognise her and suddenly he goes "Hey, I got to break my chains and instantly find Buffy, because I know she is in danger ?" For all he knew, she could have been making out with Scott in that room and than he would have looked rather stupid, if he had burst into it.

I was never under the impression that he was tracking her because he knew she was in danger. He just wanted to track her because he remembers her and then he happens to find her whilst she's in danger. There's no way he could have known she was in danger whilst chained in the mansion and I never felt it was the writer's intent for us to believe that.


That is exactly my problem. She did not really need his help. Yet he bursts in and fight away her attacker although she would have been able to do that herself. It would have been more plausible, if she had been knocked out unconscious.

I guess I just don't understand why it's so important whether or not she "needed" his help? To me, what that scene was trying to convey is that even in his animalistic state Angel instinctively wanted to help Buffy. The importance of that isn't lost because she's not knocked unconscious or because she wouldn't have died without his help. The meaning behind the scene is not whether or not Buffy needed Angel's help but that after 100 hundred years of torture he still cared enough to fight for her and it was by remembering Buffy that he was able to retain any semblance of self (as Giles states).


Or, I would have liked the scene better, if they had at least fought together. That is a huge difference to the scene in End of Days, that you mentioned. He does help her with Caleb, but she finishes the job herself.

I personally think the scene was a lot more poignant how it was written. Seeing Buffy react with such surprise at Angel's intervention is a lot more moving to me than if her and a feral Angel had fought in unison. I'd actually have found that far less plausible given the state he was in. I just found it far more believable that Buffy would be frozen with shock and also a little weary to get near him then leaping into the fight to battle alongside him.

Priceless
02-03-18, 10:33 AM
I was never under the impression that he was tracking her because he knew she was in danger. He just wanted to track her because he remembers her and then he happens to find her whilst she's in danger. There's no way he could have known she was in danger whilst chained in the mansion and I never felt it was the writer's intent for us to believe that.


I agree he was just tracking Buffy because he remembers her, but I disagree that he wouldn't have known she was in danger or at least in a fight. The chemicals in her body would have been giving of a different smell, and as a 'beast' he would have been able to smell her fear or her raised adrenaline. Animals can smell fear, excitement, they know when there's a fight going on.

vampmogs
02-03-18, 10:44 AM
I agree he was just tracking Buffy because he remembers her, but I disagree that he wouldn't have known she was in danger or at least in a fight. The chemicals in her body would have been giving of a different smell, and as a 'beast' he would have been able to smell her fear or her raised adrenaline. Animals can smell fear, excitement, they know when there's a fight going on.

Not all the way back at the mansion, though. He would have begun to smell it the closer he got (hence bursting into the room like he did) but I doubt vampire senses are so powerful that they can sense danger/fight from ages away. If they could then that would expose major plot holes in the show when Angel and Spike could/should have shown up for a lot more fights.

Priceless
02-03-18, 10:53 AM
Not all the way back at the mansion, though. He would have begun to smell it the closer he got (hence bursting into the room like he did) but I doubt vampire senses are so powerful that they can sense danger/fight from ages away. If they could then that would expose major plot holes in the show when Angel and Spike could/should have shown up for a lot more fights.

Lol, yes you are probably right, but in this episode Angel isn't just vamp Angel, he's a 'beast' as the title tells us. He's come back as an animal, and it's his animal instincts that are at play here, not only his vamp ones. He has to deliberately use his vamp abilities, but his animal instincts are always there, and it's these instincts that are at play in this episode.

flow
07-03-18, 06:25 PM
I got so distracted this week with reading "West of the Moon, East of the Sun", that I forgot, to announce the episodes due on rewatch this week. They are

Homecoming

and

Band Candy.

I won`t be able to watch them until Friday, but maybe someone else wants to start this weeks episode rewatch comments.

flow

Priceless
08-03-18, 09:31 AM
Homecoming

Was Buffy stringing Scott along? She's lying to everyone, she's obviously still in love with Angel so she should really not be planning of going to the prom with Scott, and I can totally understand why he finishes with her.

The Mayor's obsession with cleanliness is so creepy. I also like how he talks about his mother, and we later learn he has been married, it just adds so many interesting layers to his character.

Some Fuffy action in the library, either Faith is being supportive friend, or trying-to-get-into-your-pants friend :D

Cordy v Buffy is one of the most exciting political campaigns on the 1990's. These women are amazing. Buffy's strength/weakness board is fun and I love the musical montage showing the bribery and corruption apparent in both campaigns, inter cut with Slayerfest 98 prep. Both competitions are equally as vicious.

Willow and Xander. There was just no build up to this. Xander has been batting off Willow's advances for years, and now he's smitten because she's rounded second with Oz and looks good in a black dress. Teenagers are really idiots with raging hormones.

Faith std slur about Scott is just classless and mean. Scott had every right to break up with Buffy, he wasn't cruel about it and didn't deserve Faith's over reaction.

Buffy and Cordy working together and revealing their fears and insecurities to each other is so well written. They are never truly friends but they do grow to understand each other a little more. I like vulnerable Buffy and angry Cordy, they could so easily be each other and I think that's partly why they can never really be friends. Buffy was once Cordy and Cordy does become Buffy.

Priceless
09-03-18, 01:15 PM
Band Candy

Giles helping Buffy with her revision is odd, he wants her to do well but must know she can not go away for college. Wouldn't he want her to stay around the Hellmouth, so wouldn't it be better if she did badly in the exams? Maybe he's just checking that she's as dumb as he thought and there's no way she's ever leaving Sunnydale and him (harsh reading of Giles there, I admit :))

Buffy finds it so easy to lie to Joyce and Giles so she can visit Angel. Then she lies to Angel about Scott. This must all be stressing her out, with the SAT's too, she's under so much pressure.

OMG the shirtless tai chi. And it takes him a moment to realise Buffy is there, so much for his vampire senses . . . unless he was enjoying her watching him . . . I'm pretty sure Buffy was enjoying it.

Xander/Willow footsie in front of Cordy, is just disrespectful and I really dislike it.

I cannot believe this was Joyce as a young woman. She couldn't even give Buffy the sex talk without embarrassment, I cannot imagine her ever being this adventurous. I put it down to Ripper's bad influence and his sexy earing.

I also resent the inference that older people cannot be wild unless they are under a spell :D

Why does it seem that it's mostly black people who are working the factory conveyor line? There do seem to be more than usual black people in the Bronze too. It's something that always sticks out for me in this episode. Has anyone else noticed it?

Always nice to see Ethan Rayne, one of my favourite little-bads. Wish he had a bigger role in the episode, he was a bit wasted here.

flow
11-04-18, 09:08 PM
I have temporarily abandoned this thread but I have not forgotten it !

Today it is time for

Homecoming !

I actually find Scott a bit boyish. Not in a bad way. But he looks younger than Buffy. Or maybe it just seems that way, because all her other boyfriends are older than she is ?

Oh, Buffy lets Angel roam free.....well. Yes. Not that I mind that. I think, she is perfectly justified, to let ensouled vampires roam free.

I am not quite sure, how I feel about Buffy telling Angel, that she is seeing a solid guy, whom she can count on and who makes her happy. She seems to be a bit cold and harsh in that scene. But it is thrown right back into her face in the next scene, when Scott breaks up with her. I did not see any romance between them or genuine feelings on Buffy`s side. They had only just begun to go out. But it adds to Buffy`s - as she will call it later - stellar history with guys.

Xander does look gorgeous in a tux. Willow`s dress is also beautiful, but I don`t buy the sudden physical attraction between them. They always had the brother-sister vibe, imho.

Why do villains always take such pain to explain to their victims, that, when, why and how they are going to kill them ?
And why, when there are two of them, is one always standing aside, until the other has been dusted ?

Was that spatula really made out of wood ?

Cordy scared a vampire away, by simply talking to him.....good for her !

Let`s do a vote on dresses. You can rank:

- Cordy`s green neckholder dress with a long slit at the side
- Buffy`s red fifties style dress
- Willow`s slim black dress
- Faith`s dark purple minidress.

My ranking order is:

1. black
2. green
3. red
4. purple

flow

Priceless
11-04-18, 09:21 PM
Was that spatula really made out of wood ?

i thought the spatula was plastic.

Cordy's green dress was stunning

flow
11-04-18, 10:20 PM
Let`s have some

Band Candy !

I have often heard JM saying about the AR scene, that he did not want to do it, that he felt awkward doing it and that he feared, it might ruin his career. I am wondering, if DB felt the same about the Tai Chi Scene ?

The only grown up, who is convincingly acting like a teen is Snyder. I like the way, he wants to bond with the group. Giles looks a bit ridiculous with his plaid shirt tied around his waist. Did he borrow Spike´s boots ? And has he actually used an eyliner ? I am usually a huge fan of ASH, but this is not his greatest moment on the show.

What I liked most about this episode, was the coat, Giles stole for Joyce. That was a really nice looking coat. Otherwise this episode is really nothing much to write home about, imho.

Stay tuned for next weeks Revelations and watch with us Lovers Walk !

flow

Stoney
12-04-18, 02:58 AM
I watched these this week too. :)

Homecoming is a great ep for Cordelia, I love that she put herself in front of Buffy when she was down, so gutsy. I also find it really sad to see how Faith is trying to integrate, is looking to be a supportive friend to Buffy, but it isn't getting noticed so much. Her trick on Scott and his date, it's a bit childish, but her intention is still to try and be a supportive friend (whilst still too with the cynical attitude towards guys obviously). I don't think she's being deliberately shunned, but her wish to try to be a part of the group and connect with Buffy is so clear at this stage it just makes me feel badly for her. I can't help picture her alone in that awful hotel, The Council really have an appalling attitude towards the slayers.

I really find Band Candy overrated. I think Giles as 'Ripper' is awkward and a bit silly. The whole plot has so many holes in it it's quite ridiculous. But I adore teenage Snyder. You can see him completely as an unpopular teen who tries to latch himself onto those who have power, just like he does with the Mayor as an adult. And the 'Summers you drive like a spaz' line really makes me laugh. One of the weakest episodes of the season though.

flow
16-04-18, 09:05 PM
A new week has started, so let´s have some

Revelations:

Another Tai Chi lesson. I am not really into Tai Chi and maybe this scene would work better for me, if I understood, what they are doing here, but my main problem is, that I simply fail to see any chemistry between Angel and Buffy.

Why is that? Is it me? Am I under a blinding spell? Am I too young? Too old? Not romantic enough? To much of a cynic? Or is David Boreanaz killing it, because he looks bored to hell and as if he rather was on an evening out with his mates, drinking beer and enjoying a game of soccer (or whatever games the have in the US instead of soccer)?

Faith has a new watcher thrown into her face. She is opening up to Buffy. She asks Buffy to do the same. She is really trying to get close. I can understand, that Buffy doesn`t want to pour out her heart to Faith. She doesn`t even do it with Willow or Xander. But Faith is reaching out. And then she goes to the cemetary all on her own and very bravely starts to fight a demon. Is there any reason, why the demon does not bother to kill her? Except, that it is another creature ignoring her ?

Angel`s mansion is actually quite nice. Does anybody think, he pays rent for it ?

Giles gets knocked out again. Poor guy.

There is - once again- a rift between Buffy, her friends and Giles It has already been there between season1 and season2 and once more at the beginning of season3 after Buffy has returned from L.A.

Now Angel is back, undead and ensouled. She considers him to not be dangerous. And she is right about that, no doubt. But why, if she is certain, he is no longer a threat, does she not talk to her friends about it? Giles points it out to her. He was tortured by Angel for hours. He has a right to know. Cordy is right as well. Angel went after Buffy`s friends. She has a right to know as well.

I can`t help feeling, that Buffy does not take the pain or anger or fear of her friends serious enough in this situation. Instead she thinks, she can make Giles happy again by killing a demon.

Faith is far more likeable than Buffy is in this episode.

Tar Frim !

flow

Priceless
16-04-18, 09:46 PM
Another Tai Chi lesson. I am not really into Tai Chi and maybe this scene would work better for me, if I understood, what they are doing here, but my main problem is, that I simply fail to see any chemistry between Angel and Buffy.


I agree. There is no chemistry between the two. I think the thai chi is meant to make you believe there is something always sexual between them, but it doesn't work for me. Spike and Buffy can be fully dressed, glaring at each other and they'd have more sexual chemistry.


Why is that? Is it me? Am I under a blinding spell? Am I too young? Too old? Not romantic enough? To much of a cynic? Or is David Boreanaz killing it, because he looks bored to hell and as if he rather was on an evening out with his mates, drinking beer and enjoying a game of soccer (or whatever games the have in the US instead of soccer)?


It's the acting. DB cannot emote. His face is solid and shows very little emotion. There are so many scenes where someone is acting their heart out, begging him, loving him, whatever, and he stays remote and impassive until it's his turn to say his lines, then he comes alive. He doesn't know how to react and be part of a scene even if he isn't the one with the lines. There is a scene between him and Romanov (Lilah) where she is acting her heart out, and DB just leans on his desk, totally impassive until it's his turn to talk. It's awful.


Faith is far more likeable than Buffy is in this episode.


Not possible :D

flow
19-04-18, 09:38 PM
Lovers Walk

The reason why I don`t like to rewatch season3 is, that is has only one Spike Episode in it. Imho that is even worse than season1. I know, that season1 does not even have one single Spike epiosde. But I only miss him for twelve episodes in season1, whereas I have to plough throuh the unbelieveable amount of twentyone Spikeless episodes in season3.

Don`t expect any unbiased opinions about Lovers Walk from me. You have been warned :lol:

I love to hear JM singing.....I did it mahay way..... (By the way, I also love to see JM acting)

I have to admit, that I find it almost heartbreaking, when I see Xander looking at the pictures of him and Cordy in Cordelias locker and saying "I never knew I was locker door material". There is so much awe and surprise and hope and happiness in his voice, that his stupid Willow kissing and playing footsie with her is even more unbelieveable, than it already was from the beginning.

Willow is faking her joy about Oz`little pez witch present. Good acting by AH.

I feel very sorry for the Magic Shop owner. She was such a nice and kind Lady.

How did Spike know, that Willow would be in the school laboratory at night? I can suddenly understand some of Xanders resentment towards Spike, considering that he just got punched in the face twice.

Joyce: "Xander is a witch?" That is so funny. I love Joyce.

Can anyone explain to me please, what "Peaches" means? Apart from the fruit. Or, if there is no other meaning, why does Spike basically call Angel "Fruits"?

Love`s a funny thing!

Next week it is gonna be The Wish and Amends.

flow

Stoney
19-04-18, 10:48 PM
A new week has started, so let´s have some

I watched both of these this week too. :D

I have to say I actually like the Bangel Tai Chi scene. That, the ice skating and the graveyard picnic are probably my favourite Bangely moments. I don't think DB does a great job on the romance side generally, I think he does just try to rely on being tall dark and broody to make hearts go afluttering and he's better as the tall dark broody lead in his own show, but I like some aspects of Bangel.

Revelations is all about Faith for me. Seeing her try to be a supportive friend in splitting Scott up from his date in Homecoming was interesting alongside offering to go with Buffy and we get more of her attempting to join Buffy and the group here too. She's training/patrolling and we've now got her trying to share with Buffy and reaching out as you say. She is trying to join the gang, is supportive of Giles when Post first arrives and is hurt when she is excluded and then made to look a fool. As she calls Buffy back you know that she is wanting to fix it further but just doesn't know how to get herself to let the barriers down. I've a lot of time for Faith and think it is atrocious how she was stranded and left to deal with some horrific trauma alone. Some of this is the scoobies not realising what a mess she is in or being distracted by their own issues, but a great deal is at the feet of the Council who treat slayers in an appalling way. Faith is supposed to be grateful for her awful apartment/room because it makes her a good warrior is she?? Bull.

Buffy has a heck of a lot churning under the surface over Angel's return and I think she was uncertain what she felt, worried about what could happen, guilty about having started to move on too. She should have told the others but there was likely also fear at how they would react on behalf of Angel as well as not wanting to raise memories that were difficult and clashing with them again. It's all just a mess really.

Obviously I love Lovers Walk and Spike's brief blast into town throws everyone else's love lives up in the air in his wake, ha. And I love that Spike is as blind in love as he is accusing Buffy and Angel of being. He might be willing to admit he is a slave to it, but he refuses to see Dru and her treatment of him for what it is. So despite complaining about her indiscretion repeatedly and Angel winding him up and pointing out she is fickle (presumably alluding to his time unsouled with her too), Spike decides to go and remind her what she loved about him. But this doesn't bear any resemblance to who he was when she saw him we come to learn, it is still about him trying to make himself what she wants, bringing her gifts, beautiful dresses with beautiful girls etc etc. He's trying to fit expectations and that isn't about being accepted as he is.

I heartily disliked the Willow/Xander storyline and am more than glad it has come to its end. I really feel for Cordelia too, she's genuinely heart broken.

I don't think Willow was faking the joy at the Pez witch flow. What made you think she was?

I think peaches is deliberately a mocking term of endearment that is somewhat belittling/derogatory, like calling him sweetie, and also there is the possible meaning of peach as a fruit that is often associated with visually looking like an 'ass', so another slight/insult layered in. Aaaand, peach fuzz is often a way to refer to the immature facial hair guys get when going through puberty, so again, a way to try and belittle him as 'acting like a man'. Can't think of anything else. :biggrin1:

flow
27-04-18, 09:32 PM
The Wish

I almost never criticize anything Buffy says or does. I do sometimes criticize, what she wears, though ;-)

But why the heck does Buffy have to ask Willow, what Amy said about how Cordy is doing? Hasn`t Buffy been to visit her? And why does nobody put Xander right about his telephone calls? 60 or 70 calls? That is some serious stalking.

I feel so sorry for Cordy. She is so insecure, when she walks into the school. And Harmony is so mean. She deserves all the mistreatment, she will get from Spike later on.

I love Oz. But he is to good to be true. He doesn`t fit in the drama, that is the Buffyverse. Therefore, he will have to go.

It is weird to see Xander`s ex-love and his future-love talking together :-)

Buffy is feeling "weird" about teaming up with Xander and Willow against Cordelia? She should feel outright evil. This is one of her lowest points in the whole series. And why are Xander and Willow suddenly back to being good-old-pals? Just a week ago, they needed a delusting spell, to keep their hands off each other.

I love NB as a vampire. Vamp!Xander is as evil, as evil goes. But I don `t buy Vamp!Willow at all. AH is just too sweet to be an evil vampire.

I love the Wishverse`s cool and hardened Buffy. But why does she - again - not sense, that Angel is a vampire?

There is one thing I don`t understand. Anya gave Cordy her pendant. Giles took it from Cordy. But when he summoned Anya in the Wishverse, Anya was wearing her pendant. :confused:

flow

Priceless
27-04-18, 10:36 PM
But why the heck does Buffy have to ask Willow, what Amy said about how Cordy is doing? Hasn`t Buffy been to visit her?

I don't think Buffy would go visit Cordy in the hospital. They aren't friends particularly, and she's very much on Willow and Xander's side. I think she'd expect Cordy to refuse to see her, as she refused to see Xander. It does seem quite cold though.


And Harmony is so mean. She deserves all the mistreatment, she will get from Spike later on.

:lol: She definitely does


I love Oz. But he is to good to be true. He doesn`t fit in the drama, that is the Buffyverse. Therefore, he will have to go.


Agree so much. Everyone loves Oz, and he's a cool guy, but he's a blank slate. The audience can project anything onto him, because most of the time he's so quiet we don't really know how he feels about anything. I've always thought he's a stoner, and they are pretty dull.

Stoney
28-04-18, 03:47 AM
The Wish

I don't think Buffy is being harsh towards Cordelia, or teaming up against her. We know they weren't letting people see her at first and it could well be after Xander's first visit that she says she doesn't want to see other visitors to the staff there. Willow and Xander are Buffy's closest friends and I think she is just behaving as if that is true and as if she appreciates that Cordelia knows it too. I think Buffy could have fairly assumed that she'd want some space/time away from them all at first and she does try to speak to her outside The Bronze in a supportive way. As for Xander and Willow's change in tone with each other, I think the reveal and being caught out just brought them down to earth with a bump. The consequences of the cheating hurt and the 'excitement' of being together in secret has been lifted. I think it is just supposed to be a natural delusting big old splash of cold water that worked like nothing else coulda!

I really feel for Cordelia too. Harmony is revelling in her new 'top dog' role in her group and can't resist getting in a mean jibe. It's no wonder she is one of the few vampires that seems to change very little from her human character when she was already such a nasty, cruel person.

And Oz, I love Oz. I think that he is just a quieter person who thinks deeply on things and we see in how he responds to being a werewolf and closes off about what is happening with Veruca that sometimes that can be a really negative thing. Deeply internalising everything and not approaching things directly sometimes means the bad brews rather than more reasoned thoughts/logic. He works really well for me as just a very different character and has never struck me as blank, just a thinker.

I was wondering about the pendant too when watching this time flow. My headcanon is that the pendant that Anya puts on Cordelia isn't her real one, or is a glamour/illusion or some such that she is just using to connect with her and befriend her. So when Giles calls her she is wearing the real amulet and that is why he sees that one glow and realises hers is more than a necklace. But it is an inconsistency really, I'm just trying to explain it away. :p

I like that the episode shows again that everything isn't set in stone when it comes to prophecies. The Master escaped without Buffy even coming to Sunnydale. But what I love the most is that we see the consistency in the characters, even when they have followed very different paths. Wishverse Buffy is hard and distant. It makes me wonder what she has been through to come out so altered. But she is still determined, resourceful and follows her gut rather than cowering to authority figures.

I think The Wish is one of the strongest episodes of the series. It hits me in the feels and that final scene really does choke me up. It's so well directed and the slow-mo/music makes it's impact incredible even though you know that it is all going to be put right. Seeing the group killed off one be one like that, and after Cordelia's murder too, I'm on the edge waiting for Giles to smash the damn pendant!! :lol:


Amends

I have to say again how much I feel for Faith. She has been through a whole heap of trauma that we know of and likely plenty that we don't have detailed and she is still stringing up fairy lights. That she manages to expose her vulnerability a bit by backing down and going around to Buffy's is great and you've got to love Joyce for realising the invitation was something that should be done. My heart breaks for Faith just that little bit more when she offers her 'crappy' gifts, so in need of a connection to people and not this hard shell all over yet. Her ready willingness to stay and protect Joyce without questioning Buffy's request I think just underlines the need to belong that she is desperate for but fears she doesn't have/deserve with such good people.

This is a good acting ep for DB and he is pretty ropey in BtVS compared to AtS (or my memory of his earlier AtS episodes is already fading perhaps :lol:). The scene with Giles/Jenny/Angel is so brilliantly done by the three of them. How both Angel and Giles struggle to be around each other, clearly neither are ready for this meeting, but both try to work past it for the current need/fear trumping personal wishes is good characterisation I think.

This is actually a tremendous character episode for Angel. We get down to some deeper character issues that drive him and his responses to being unsouled/souled. That continuity of character that exists despite the more dramatic swings in behaviour are totally logical when you consider his upbringing and his human character/behaviour. His statement that it is the man that is the weakness is exactly why his souled characterisation is so much quieter and prone to brooding compared to his conscience free version. It saddens me that such a large portion of the fandom reduce the complexity of the character by failing to understand how the same person can behave so varied in their responses to themselves. So we get some real grit and depth to what his biggest struggle is and then, for me, it's undermined by silly magic snow.

Buffy and Angel are really communicating and getting to the heart of the character and then the whole issue is shoved aside to marvel at snow that despite falling in little wisps is instantly deep and settled in a very unrealistic lumpy pattern. I don't have an issue with his suicide attempt being thwarted by other powers. Just as his return is being considered to be at the hands of The First Evil, for its own purposes, Angel's path is often littered with being pushed/pulled by others (including the gypsy curse) and how he responds to those treatments. But the 'fluffyness' of the magic snow, the magical Christmas miracle, just takes all the fire and edge away from the scene. That aside though, I think I enjoyed the episode on this rewatch more than I have before.

flow
29-04-18, 01:41 PM
Stoney:

I was wondering about the pendant too when watching this time flow. My headcanon is that the pendant that Anya puts on Cordelia isn't her real one, or is a glamour/illusion or some such that she is just using to connect with her and befriend her. So when Giles calls her she is wearing the real amulet and that is why he sees that one glow and realises hers is more than a necklace. But it is an inconsistency really, I'm just trying to explain it away.

I am going to post it in the plot hole thread. Maybe someone else has an additional explanation ;-)

flow

Stoney
29-04-18, 07:15 PM
I am going to post it in the plot hole thread. Maybe someone else has an additional explanation ;-)

Cool, we'll see if anyone else has another explanation that works better. :D

flow
17-05-18, 11:18 PM
Amends

I am going to cut it very short. I don`t like the episode at all. One reason for my dislike is the snow. That isn`t snow guys. It is the plastic stuff, you spray on plastic chrístmas trees. Ewww...

Another point off for this episode is, that for once SMG`s acting falls short. She comes across like a child that didn`t get what was on her Christmas wishlist, while she is yelling at Angel.

And what really kills this episode finally off for me, is, Angel and Buffy standing under a pitch dark black night sky with Buffy screaming "There is only a few minutes left!"

..until what exactly?

I am not even asking, why the First Evil can touch Angel and why it emphasizes not once but twice, that Angel will be dead by sunrise. Just to make sure, that Buffy really got the message and runs after him.

Pro: We see Jenny Calendar again and DB`s acting is really saving the day. Or the epiosde.

flow

flow
25-05-18, 11:04 PM
I really have been neglecting my re-watch of season3 again and I am trying (late at night) to catch up a little bit with

Gingerbread

I absolutely love, how devastated joyce is about the deaths of those two kids and it is very diametrical to Giles´s rather factual approach "this is just a crime, we don`t need to get involved."

And Buffy is right in between both of them, asking herself, if she can make an exception to the "I don`t kill humans"-rule.

So, how come, Sheila doesn`t know Buffy`s name or Willow`s haircut but does know Joyce?

I can`t help feeling, that Joyce looks at Giles as if she is hoping for some small sign of affection from his side. And he is as cold as a cucumber...

Isn`t the Mayor really convincing as a caring and grieving member and head of the Sunnydale Community?

Lol...I love Giles talking in german. He sounds cool...

The demon at the end was a bit over the top and the way Buffy staked him was just silly.

But I liked the premise of this epiosde. That humans can turn into monsters, especially when they are many. I liked the reference to the burning of books as well.

A great episode with minor flaws.

flow

flow
31-05-18, 09:03 PM
It is really difficult for me to watch

Helpless

I have to admit, I actually like how DB asks Buffy "You are talking about your father, aren`t you?" He really can deliver funny lines. He doesn`t get enough credit for that. But that is the only funny line in this whole Episode.

And watching Giles, lecturing Buffy about amethysts and at the same time already drugging her...then sending her on patrol, where she nearly gets herself killed by a vampire...

...that`s ... urgh....

And now she is practically begging him, to go with her to the ice show and he pretends not to hear or understand her, babbles again about crystals and gives her another shot of drugs. Joyce would have gone with her. She could have asked Angel. Or Willow, or Xander. But of all the people, she asked Giles. I can`t stand the cold look on his face, when he pulls out the syringe....

Quentin Travers looks a lot like an uncle of mine, which freaks me out a little. It`s my favorite uncle...

Really great pick for a birthday present, Angel. Buffy is over the top with Sonnets from the Portuguese.

"Who are you?" Oh, yes, that is a valid question. There is another one, Buffy didn`t ask. How many Slayers have ever passed this test? How many got killed, during the test?

What I do not understand, is, why some people complain, that Buffy forgave Spike for the AR but never seem to bother, that she forgave Giles for drugging her in order to get her killed. Where is the difference ?

This is one of the more horrific episodes of the entire series and Kralik is one of the most horrible monsters, we see.

flow

Stoney
31-05-18, 11:36 PM
S3 is pretty solid throughout and I love Gingerbread and Helpless. They are both cracking episodes in the season with lots of layering and issues for multiple characters, particularly when considering both corruption of authority and identity issues (both self perception and the perception of others, as are often at play).

Both parental figures are considered between the two and both over protectiveness and the barriers between generations as well as rejection and distancing are explored. The challenges of changing power balances between parent and child are one of the most difficult aspects of growing up I think. From the parent's point of view you should allow the reach for independence whilst also still looking for the times you should guide and protect. The child has to find their own interests and feel both part of a social group as well as able to emerge as an individual. To be seen but not held back. It's a balancing nightmare on both sides. And around this break out of individuality and independence there is also consideration to people in positions of higher authority. Those with wider power gained from their positions and how they define their priorities and justify their choices.

I'm a little ahead of you now, Earshot was the last episode we watched. :)

Priceless
01-06-18, 10:37 AM
Helpless is my favourite episode of Season 3. I love how it changes everything we know and think of Giles and Buffy. Suddenly we see Giles doing something so devious and amoral, and have to question how we've viewed him up to this point. He regrets his actions and questions Travers over it, but he has gone along with it. This is not the good father. But even more important is that Buffy beats Kralik, even though she doesn't have her Slayer powers. I love this! Being the Slayer isn't just about tapping into innate demon powers, it's about Buffy the person. She is clever and strong and tenacious, even without access to her Slayer side. I love what that says about her