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Priceless
15-02-18, 09:48 PM
Are there any episodes that you think are under-rated or not generally liked by fans, but you love them, or there is something within the episode that makes it better than most fans think it is?

For me it's Where The Wild Things Are. It's an episode that doesn't get much love but I think there's a lot to like about it. The 'ghostly' happenings are fun and surprising, Spike and Anya bond, Giles is singing, Tara takes charge and runs a seance and Xander and Anya are heroes. It's just the Briley sex that puts people off, but there's so much more to it than that.

So which episodes do you think are under-rated or unfairly unpopular?

Andrew S.
16-02-18, 01:45 AM
"Gingerbread" without a doubt. Sheila Rosenberg's appearance gives so much insight into Willow's character, the episode finally shows a realistic response from the Sunnydale civilians about the supernatural, I love the documentary-like atmosphere of the episode, and it's funny as hell! I don't know why it's not a fan-favorite episode because it's every bit as good as something like "Halloween" and it's way better than "Band Candy" and "Tabula Rasa".

Stoney
16-02-18, 02:07 AM
I see a lot of dislike for Storyteller. I think it is mostly because a lot of people dislike Andrew and the space he took up in a season that didn't give a lot of focus on stories for the scoobies. But I like Andrew because beside our core characters he offers something different. He's an exaggeration of weakness really and in being this way he gives great contrast to them generally and especially in consideration of having seen/followed their progress through the series to where we are by S7. The episode presents issues with overly disconnecting from facing real life and how that can hold you back. I like the way it covers how what is seen can be greatly shaped by the viewer, the ability to generally interpret but also reimagine to our own preferences, as well as the way our own faults/foibles can be things we avoid admitting.


EDIT: I'm not keen on WTWTA, there's just so damn much of that terrible, stilted/awkward sex. Bleargh. It's probably in my most disliked episodes. But this is BtVS so even in the 'worst' there are still some really great elements too.

I like Gingerbread, a lot. :)

TimeTravellingBunny
16-02-18, 02:41 AM
Beauty and the Beasts.

I wrote a review of it for the rewatch thread a few years ago - back when I still had the time for that - so I'll now be lazy and just link it (http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?19870-BtVS-rewatch-SEASON-3&p=699835&viewfull=1#post699835).

Sosa lola
16-02-18, 04:57 AM
I actually like a lot of the filler/bad episodes because they tend to have so many amazing Scooby moments. Where The Wild Things Are is an episode I enjoy a lot, same with Bad Eggs, Beer Bad and Go Fish.

vampmogs
16-02-18, 09:20 AM
I also love Where the Wild Things Are. The moment where a bald Julie pleads for help after having hacked off her hair is probably one of the most genuinely disturbing scenes in the entire show. The Xanya moments are also really great too.

Oh, and I don't care what anyone says, I think Buffy/Riley can be really hot. The opening teaser is a particular favourite of mine. I love Buffy's smirk as she admires Riley beating on the vampire, and then the way they gradually start getting hot and bothered as they paw at each other and straighten each other out, and then Buffy straddling Riley as they fall into bed together and she starts pulling off his shirt (that back *drools*). And SMG looks amazing in that scene. I've come to love Buffy's S4 curly hair.

Priceless
16-02-18, 10:27 AM
I want to add my love for Gingerbread too and I agree it's better than Band Candy (but nowhere near as good as Tabula Rasa ;)) It's so underrated and I wonder if that's because it comes between Amends and Helpless, two beloved episodes. Like Go Fish is not a terrible episode, but it's got a terrible placing within the season and that makes people dislike it.

Fool for Buffy
16-02-18, 03:07 PM
Anne is one of my favorite episodes. Why it doesn't get much more love, I have no idea. Buffy is complete badass and returns to herself despite awful circumstances. Lily/ Anne is also very sweet. And there's Willow/ Oz adorableness. Buffy with the battle axe is the defining image of the series in my opinion.

Priceless
03-03-18, 12:53 PM
Just watched Graduation Day P1 and I feel like I've always under estimated this episode. I haven't watched it for ages and seeing it again now, it's just awesome. I can't think why I've previously thought it was middle of the road, when now I'd rate it as one the best in a very good season.

MikeB
03-03-18, 04:17 PM
I disagree that anything is "unfairly unpopular". That rings of such nonsense as "Buffy should have dated Xander because _______".


If anything, BtVS S6 is underrated given it's almost-as or even more solid than BtVS S5. The hate for it mostly stems around viewers who are anti Buffy/Spike.

BtVS S7 gets a lot of hate because it's relatively boring, for the Potentials Slayer, etc. When 'binging', it's also a very solid Season.


The only episode I can think of that's underrated is "Buffy vs. Dracula" (B 5.01). The hate seems to only come from the Dracula portrayal, which doesn't make sense. He's essentially the Dracula from the novel, he's stronger than Buffy, he's 'into' Buffy and thus doesn't kill her, and Lothos has fangs in "vamp face".

Priceless
15-03-18, 11:02 AM
Recently watched The Initiative for the first time in ages and I'd forgotten what a good episode it is. I usually whistle past anything Riley/Initiative related as I tend to find them dull. But I have been wrong. This episode is actually really entertaining and I forget it has the Spike attacking Willow scene, which is brilliant.

Stoney
15-03-18, 02:53 PM
I just really find the scene too jarring in the shifts. I think it was vampmogs that also listed it as a negative in the positives/negative thread and he's right that taken in isolation either aspect of the scene is well done, it's just as a combination it's really uncomfortable. I don't remember thinking that when I first watched it but it struck me really strongly last time I saw it. I still think its a good episode though.

Priceless
15-03-18, 03:57 PM
I just really find the scene too jarring in the shifts. I think it was vampmogs that also listed it as a negative in the positives/negative thread and he's right that taken in isolation either aspect of the scene is well done, it's just as a combination it's really uncomfortable. I don't remember thinking that when I first watched it but it struck me really strongly last time I saw it. I still think its a good episode though.

I understand how it might jar. It reminds me of their scenes in Lovers Walk. I think these two are the 'actors' in the show, they relate to each other on a physical level that makes their scenes seem very real. It's like they are encouraging each other to 'perform' and find a depth the show doesn't usually encourage in it's scenes of violence, which are often played very lightly. Only the AR scene compares to this and the Lovers Walk scene imo, for it's depiction of violence.

But I don't mind the jarring effect, I really quite like it. There is danger here, we're uncertain of what's going to happen, it's exciting to watch. Then it's beautifully undercut by the dialogue, which is played for laughs and works really well for me. Spike having performance problems - it's a microcosm of Spike's whole personality, which is pretty much all performance in one way or another.

Stoney
15-03-18, 11:01 PM
Spike having performance problems - it's a microcosm of Spike's whole personality, which is pretty much all performance in one way or another.

I get this point and like the suggested character consistency of it. But still, making light of a violent sexual assault like that in the way they do is just not a good idea imo. I do think there are similarities to the Lover's Walk scene in the threatening tone Spike is giving both from what he says and does, but for the victim to then be reassuring her attacker that he could have another try(!), well it's just crass writing. There wasn't enough to bridge the two halves of the scene and I suspect for anyone that has suffered an assault the humour angle they went for here straight after was just too great a leap to stomach. :noidea:

bespangled
16-03-18, 12:40 AM
I get this point and like the suggested character consistency of it. But still, making light of a violent sexual assault like that in the way they do is just not a good idea imo. I do think there are similarities to the Lover's Walk scene in the threatening tone Spike is giving both from what he says and does, but for the victim to then be reassuring her attacker that he could have another try(!), well it's just crass writing. There wasn't enough to bridge the two halves of the scene and I suspect for anyone that has suffered an assault the humour angle they went for here straight after was just too great a leap to stomach. :noidea:

I never got the point of this objection. Vampires are all about assaulting people, and penetrating them. This isn't a rape joke - it's a vampire joke - it's irony. Sexual assault is horrible, but so are most assaults. People can enjoy without approving, whether it's a character, a scene, a relationship, and/or an exploration of a serious issue using humor. The show does this all the time. I like the way the scene explores Willow's insecurities and Spike's weird excess of humanity in his personality (and I am not equating humanity with goodness).

As for under rated - I like The Puppet Show - a lot of nice character moments, and I was touched by Sid's death.

Priceless
16-03-18, 09:03 AM
As for under rated - I like The Puppet Show - a lot of nice character moments, and I was touched by Sid's death.


The Puppet Show is one of my favourite Season 1 episode. I love Giles, Snyder and the talent show. Cordy is also wonderful and I like Sid and his backstory.

Stoney
16-03-18, 03:42 PM
I never got the point of this objection. Vampires are all about assaulting people, and penetrating them. This isn't a rape joke - it's a vampire joke - it's irony. Sexual assault is horrible, but so are most assaults. People can enjoy without approving, whether it's a character, a scene, a relationship, and/or an exploration of a serious issue using humor. The show does this all the time. I like the way the scene explores Willow's insecurities and Spike's weird excess of humanity in his personality (and I am not equating humanity with goodness).

The objection isn't really anything to do with the relevancy of the joke or that the show is using humour alongside darker themes. It's that the swing in tone from the dark violence on this occasion is a bit jarring. A lot of people don't find it bothers them, but it isn't a rare point of view on this particular incident. It isn't against using humour with darker topics as the show often does, it's the combination of the two on this particular occasion. They took the dark side too far to then shift quickly to joking in the way they did, for me. Imagine if Buffy and Spike had the same conversation after the scene in Seeing Red. They shot the attempted assault on Willow with too dark a tone, too much emphasis on the horror of what was about to happen to her, the moment and threat were too real and serious (if that makes sense). I can't actually think of any other occasion in the show I felt like this about the combination, it's this time it was misjudged somewhat imo. :noidea:

TimeTravellingBunny
17-03-18, 12:06 AM
I never got the point of this objection. Vampires are all about assaulting people, and penetrating them. This isn't a rape joke - it's a vampire joke - it's irony. Sexual assault is horrible, but so are most assaults. People can enjoy without approving, whether it's a character, a scene, a relationship, and/or an exploration of a serious issue using humor. The show does this all the time. I like the way the scene explores Willow's insecurities and Spike's weird excess of humanity in his personality (and I am not equating humanity with goodness).

But it was a rape joke. Vampire biting is often made to look sexual, and they definitely played it that way with Spike and Willow, both times (Lovers Walk and The Initiative) - they made the attack look like a rape attempt, and doubled down on it with the "impotence" jokes. But at the same time they had Willow and Spike talk as if it was a case of an unsuccessful attempt at sex between two lovers - Willow comforting Spike for his failure of performance, being worried she's not as hot as Buffy who would have been his first choice, telling him they could try again... It's certainly a very bad case of a mixed metaphor.

There are also other reasons I find The Initiative to be a very bad episode. Everything with Buffy/Riley is so, so badly written - it's the writing for that ship at its worst. When writers can't build up chemistry between characters, they often resort to 'tell, don't show' moments, like other people telling Riley he is obviously totally into Buffy. I don't like the way they focus on Riley's POV and try to make him likable - like Riley getting upset at Parker for talking offensively about Buffy, which would be fine, but then Forest says Riley has heard him talk worse about girls and was OK with it - and uses that to deduce that Riley is really into Buffy. So Riley is OK with men being sexist douchebags and talking about women in incredibly offensive and gross ways, as long as it's not a woman he has a thing for? Blah. If the idea was to make him more likable, which it obviously was, they did not go the right way about it.

On my rewatch, I found the Initiative to be possibly the worst season 4 episode. I disliked it more than Where the Wild Things Are and Living Conditions, maybe even more than Beer Bad.

vampmogs
17-03-18, 12:22 AM
I agree completely with Stoney and TimeTravellingBunny that it was a rape joke. Make no mistake, the scene where Spike attacks Willow in the dorm room is clearly meant to be reminiscent of a campus sexual assault and the fact that it's followed by "impotence" jokes is even more proof that the writers were clearly aware of how that scene was coming across.

This isn't even the first time that a Willow/Spike scene has had these uncomfortable implications. Not only are their scenes in Lovers Walk also more realistically violent and horrific than what is typically depicted on the show, but there's an implication that Spike is threatening to rape Willow in that episode too;

SPIKE
Mmmmm... your neck, that smell...
He lifts his face -- and it's gone vampy.

SPIKE
I haven't had a woman in weeks --
Willow springs up.

WILLOW
Whoah! No! Hold it!
SPIKE
Well, unless you count that shopkeeper...
WILLOW
Now hold on! I'll do your spell,
and, and, I'll get you Drusilla back
but there's no bottles in the face
and there's no "having"! Of any
kind! With me. All right?

What else could he be referring to when he says he hasn't had a woman in weeks? Why wouldn't he count the shop keeper if Spike was only referring to biting her? And why is Willow very explicit in saying that there'll be no having "of any kind" with her? It's obvious what they're implying.

It's incredibly jarring to go from a very serious and graphically shot scene that is reminiscent of rape to cracking 'impotence' jokes because, ha ha, Spike couldn't get it up. And then to have Willow comfort him and be upset, even, that she's not attractive enough for Spike to perform. The writer's really missed the mark in this episode.

Priceless
17-03-18, 01:12 PM
I am sure you are all right, but I still find it funny. I think it also works so well because it's in character. Willow would comfort Spike and Spike would try to attack. It comes from character, that's why it works, at least for me.

I'm also of two minds about Riley. I'm not convinced the writers wanted him to work even from the start. Even if they did, surely as soon as Whedon and the producers saw the dailies they would have know it wasn't working. At the same time Buffy was with Riley, the writers were adding sexual innuendo and romantic asides between and about Buffy/Spike, planting the idea of them as a romantic relationship in the audiences head. Never mind Something Blue, even before Briley even got off the ground.

HardlyThere
19-03-18, 05:35 PM
I'm of two minds on them abandoning Riley. On one hand, I think it seems like they did. On the other, I think he'd have been gone in S5 no matter what so I don't know why they wouldn't bother doing what they intended.

The thing about Riley is it was always going to be an uphill climb, but the writers did not help by never giving us much of a reason to like him. He punches Parker and he's a doof. Not gonna cut it. Despite massive screentime, we never learn anything about him.

I don't think they were setting up any B/S stuff with their S4 interactions. Loaded byplay is rampant, like the aforementioned exchange with Willow and also with Xander.

Help is grossly underrated.

TimeTravellingBunny
19-03-18, 06:45 PM
I am sure you are all right, but I still find it funny. I think it also works so well because it's in character. Willow would comfort Spike and Spike would try to attack. It comes from character, that's why it works, at least for me.

I'm also of two minds about Riley. I'm not convinced the writers wanted him to work even from the start. Even if they did, surely as soon as Whedon and the producers saw the dailies they would have know it wasn't working. At the same time Buffy was with Riley, the writers were adding sexual innuendo and romantic asides between and about Buffy/Spike, planting the idea of them as a romantic relationship in the audiences head. Never mind Something Blue, even before Briley even got off the ground.

I'm pretty sure they did. It's obvious from the way they set up Riley as a character and love interest that he was meant to be a love interest for quite some time. He wasn't introduced as just a red herring/short-term rebound guy like Scott Hope (who had "nope, she's not that into you, never gonna work" written all over him), and there was even a brief bad rebound guy/red herring love interest in the form of Parker the poophead, which further served to prepare the audience to accept Riley more easily than if he had been Buffy's first boyfriend after Angel (the good guy for a long-term relationship, after another bad experience). And he was Buffy's main love interest in season 4, and the focus of the Initiative storyline. We also know that the casting director, according to what she said in interviews, thought that Marc Blucas was the wrong choice, but Joss disagreed (sometimes he gets it wrong in casting). Just because something didn't work, doesn't mean it hadn't been intended to work.
And it's not the only example of a TV show earnestly introducing love interests with the intention to work and have a ship that would be supported by the fandom, where it just didn't work out because the actors had lacked chemistry, and/or the writing additionally failed. It's happened on other shows, too.

I don't think the writers had decided to go with Spuffy by the time they were doing season 4. I think it was something they had on their minds and were playing with and maybe testing the waters - because I believe that it was already a popular non-canon ship in fandom, and SMG was at the time saying in a teen magazine that she would like Spike to be Buffy's new boyfriend, so the idea was certainly out there. Jane Espenson was always a Spuffy shipper, so I'm not surprised that she threw in hints in The Harsh Light of Day, while Something Blue was probably both teasing the shippers and testing the chemistry. During season 4, the writing staff allegedly also became worried that Blucas had more chemistry with Alyson Hannigan than SMG, so they cut down on the Willow/Riley scenes.

So, I think that, in preparation of S4, they were definitely committed to the idea of Buffy/Riley - they planned Riley as a long-term boyfriend and made him the focus of the Initiative storyline and Buffy's main love interest in S4. Meanwhile they made Spike part of the main cast and at first tried to make him the new "Cordelia character" (the one who says harsh truths). Spuffy was something that obviously existed as an idea, but that they were at most just considering and playing with. I think that, during S4, it gradually got more and more obvious that Buffy/Riley wasn't working, and Gellar and Marsters had great chemistry - and as a result, as season 5 was planned, they decided to end Buffy/Riley and start developing Spuffy.

Priceless
19-03-18, 07:40 PM
I'm pretty sure they did. It's obvious from the way they set up Riley as a character and love interest that he was meant to be a love interest for quite some time

I agree that Riley was meant to last a while, not be a one night stand like Parker, but I'm not sure the writers wanted him to be a popular or convincing love interest. If they did, they did a very poor job. I can't help thinking he was set up to be a foil for Spike and be the re-bound guy from Angel. Technically the rebound guy isn't the one night stand guy, he's the one that lasts a while, but when compared to the last boyfriend, is always found wanting. Which is exactly what Riley is by the majority of fans.

Of course bad casting and bad judgement in love-interests does happen on tv shows. Although I'm a fan of Kennedy's, she is the most obvious case of this bad judgement for most fans.

The difference is that there was on-one else being signalled as a love interest for Willow at the time. Whereas when Riley first appeared on the scene, Spike was there, and the script was full of innuendo about he and Buffy. Even most of the early conversations between Spike and Buffy were about their love lives . . . and of course just as Riley realises he has a crush on Buffy, there is Something Blue and Buffy is in Spike's arms. I don't know what the writers or producers were aiming for, but this doesn't seem the right way to get Buffy and Riley together, so I can't help but think their intention all along was to portray Riley as lacklustre when compared to the exciting evil vampire.

Harsh Light Of Day Spike comments that they are on a double date an comments on Buffy's 'new boy'. Buffy teases Spike about Dru dumping him, Parker even wonders if Buffy and Spike used to be a couple. Spike tries to kill Buffy and the worst things he can think to say to her are about her love life. There are constant references throughout the season to Spike and Buffy's love lives; Spikes tells her she has terrible taste in men, Buffy says if she wanted someone with super powers she'd be dating Spike . . .

Of course I'm looking back with knowledge we didn't have at the time, and you see things that perhaps you'd never see then. I agree pretty much with what your are saying and knowing where their relationship went, it wouldn't surprise me, even if it were subconscious, that the writers were laying the groundwork for getting these two characters together.

a thing of evil
19-03-18, 08:32 PM
I think the problem with Riley is that he's too much like Angel, he's like an off-brand, ersatz Angel. He's still a guy with a mystery and superpowers and there's still angst. Except the angst is nowhere near as intense as with Angel, the powers aren't as super and the mystery's lame in comparison. Of course it sucks, the premise is flawed. The show didn't need another Angel, it needed a character that was a complete 180. People would've hated him anyway so whatever, right?

flow
19-03-18, 09:35 PM
I can see, that they wanted Buffy/Riley to work.

The did not want to go down the Angel plot line again. No more vampires for Buffy !

Riley was the normal guy, good looking, from Iowa but at the same time he was a cool soldier working for a secret governement organisation. He could fight demons just like Angel (or Spike) but he wasn`t a vampire. And he also was a TA für psychology at the Sunnydale University. An intelligent, good looking superstrong boyfriend. Who yould have thought, it would not work ? I am convinced, that it could have worked, had they casted someone else than Marc Blucas, who unfortunately had zero chemistry with SMG.

And when the writers began to suspect, that they lacked chamistry together, they came up with "Where The Wild Things Are". Probably thinking "just let them have a sexmarathon and people will go crazy......" Unfortunately it was the final straw that broke the camels neck......

flow

HardlyThere
19-03-18, 10:51 PM
Considering where B/S went, I don't know get where y'all are with the writers intending them to hook up that early. If we're analyzing writer intent, Buffy's head was still on the block when this was being plotted. Even in S6, it was never meant to be romantic and never meant to go on as long as it did.

Marc was a terrible choice. The fact that Joss went after him pretty hard makes me side eye him. According to Marc, he blew his audition, but Joss pursued him gave him another chance. That said, I don't know if anyone could sell what was given with Riley

- - - Updated - - -


I can see, that they wanted Buffy/Riley to work.

The did not want to go down the Angel plot line again. No more vampires for Buffy !

Riley was the normal guy, good looking, from Iowa but at the same time he was a cool soldier working for a secret governement organisation. He could fight demons just like Angel (or Spike) but he wasn`t a vampire. And he also was a TA für psychology at the Sunnydale University. An intelligent, good looking superstrong boyfriend. Who yould have thought, it would not work ? I am convinced, that it could have worked, had they casted someone else than Marc Blucas, who unfortunately had zero chemistry with SMG.

And when the writers began to suspect, that they lacked chamistry together, they came up with "Where The Wild Things Are". Probably thinking "just let them have a sexmarathon and people will go crazy......" Unfortunately it was the final straw that broke the camels neck......

flow

I think the final nail was Who Are You, actually. WtWTA was just a dopey episode and if you believe Joss, revenge for the network not letting doing Willow/Tara like he wanted.

Priceless
19-03-18, 11:17 PM
I can see I'm in the minority here, but in Episode 9 Buffy and Spike were in love and in Episode 16 Riley slept with Faith. She may have been in Buffy's body, but really, if either of those episodes weren't designed to undermine Briley then I don't know what was.

The writers didn't want this to work from the start. Riley's hobby was driving! These writers created some of the most charismatic, complex and interesting characters, and yet they decide Buffy's new boyf would be a robotic soldier who's hobby was driving. Buffy doesn't even drive! :p I don't care what Joss says, Riley was written to fail from the first moment, and at least a small cadre of the writers were pulling for Spike to become the next true-love interest.

TimeTravellingBunny
20-03-18, 12:49 AM
Considering where B/S went, I don't know get where y'all are with the writers intending them to hook up that early. If we're analyzing writer intent, Buffy's head was still on the block when this was being plotted. Even in S6, it was never meant to be romantic and never meant to go on as long as it did.
.
Buffy was never meant to stay dead, unless the show gets cancelled.

Joss is a big fan of Kitty Pryde - who was one of the inspirations for Buffy, and I think that Buffy/Riley was his attempt at creating a Kitty Pryde/Colossus type of pairing - a small, firecracker girl and a tall, strong, super-earnest guy.

HardlyThere
20-03-18, 01:54 AM
Buffy was never meant to stay dead, unless the show gets cancelled.

Joss is a big fan of Kitty Pryde - who was one of the inspirations for Buffy, and I think that Buffy/Riley was his attempt at creating a Kitty Pryde/Colossus type of pairing - a small, firecracker girl and a tall, strong, super-earnest guy.

The show was up for cancellation every year according to Joss, except strangely S4. He felt pretty confident they'd get 5 at that point. According to him, that's why 1, 2, and 3 all have semi-closure, just in case, whereas S4 has Restless.

By the time they were writing THESE episodes in S4, the plan was still 5 seasons is what I'm referring to. Honestly, I think it's just working backwards. If they'd have done Spike/Willow or Spike/Xander later, you could go back and look at different scenes and storylines and say it was planned. Spike/Everyone is laced with innuendo. The writers find it funny and Spike is a character with which they can get away with it.

TimeTravellingBunny
20-03-18, 03:06 AM
The show was up for cancellation every year according to Joss, except strangely S4. He felt pretty confident they'd get 5 at that point. According to him, that's why 1, 2, and 3 all have semi-closure, just in case, whereas S4 has Restless.

By the time they were writing THESE episodes in S4, the plan was still 5 seasons is what I'm referring to. Honestly, I think it's just working backwards. If they'd have done Spike/Willow or Spike/Xander later, you could go back and look at different scenes and storylines and say it was planned. Spike/Everyone is laced with innuendo. The writers find it funny and Spike is a character with which they can get away with it.

The plan was never 5 seasons. The plan was as many seasons as possible.

I'm not sure why you seem to think that I believe Spuffy was a done deal/plan in season 4. I've said that I think they decided on it while preparing season 5, while season 4 was just teasing the shippers and playing with the idea as something that may or may not come to fruition. Kind of like it's obvious in season 1 that they were leaving Buffy/Xander and Xander/Willow as options.

bespangled
20-03-18, 03:26 AM
I can see, that they wanted Buffy/Riley to work.

The did not want to go down the Angel plot line again. No more vampires for Buffy !

Riley was the normal guy, good looking, from Iowa but at the same time he was a cool soldier working for a secret governement organisation. He could fight demons just like Angel (or Spike) but he wasn`t a vampire. And he also was a TA für psychology at the Sunnydale University. An intelligent, good looking superstrong boyfriend. Who yould have thought, it would not work ? I am convinced, that it could have worked, had they casted someone else than Marc Blucas, who unfortunately had zero chemistry with SMG.

And when the writers began to suspect, that they lacked chamistry together, they came up with "Where The Wild Things Are". Probably thinking "just let them have a sexmarathon and people will go crazy......" Unfortunately it was the final straw that broke the camels neck......

flow

Zero chemistry was definitely a problem - but they also wrote themselves into a corner. Riley would never be as capable as Buffy - and Buffy needed a partner who could keep up with her in a lot of ways. The Initiative had to go because Buffy couldn't team up with them.- that had to affect Riley. He had a timestamp on him from the start, IMO.

Wild Things was amazing in that the sexathon between two characters has the least tension, and is not even interesting.


Buffy was never meant to stay dead, unless the show gets cancelled.

Joss is a big fan of Kitty Pryde - who was one of the inspirations for Buffy, and I think that Buffy/Riley was his attempt at creating a Kitty Pryde/Colossus type of pairing - a small, firecracker girl and a tall, strong, super-earnest guy.

The show was cancelled at the end of season 5 - and they knew it would be cancelled. That's why she jumped. But Riley had left during that period, and Spike had clumsily begun to reform. Clearly he did love Buffy, and Dawn by the end of season 5, and Buffy trusted him to watch over Dawn.

I tend to see Something Blue as where they started to tease a relationship. The spell said they should get married - not fall in love.

Lostsoul666
20-03-18, 04:20 AM
Part of me wishes that Willow and Riley had hooked up. Alyson Hannigan and Marc Blucas had way better acting chemistry.

TimeTravellingBunny
20-03-18, 05:00 AM
Zero chemistry was definitely a problem - but they also wrote themselves into a corner. Riley would never be as capable as Buffy - and Buffy needed a partner who could keep up with her in a lot of ways. The Initiative had to go because Buffy couldn't team up with them.- that had to affect Riley. He had a timestamp on him from the start, IMO.

Wild Things was amazing in that the sexathon between two characters has the least tension, and is not even interesting.



The show was cancelled at the end of season 5 - and they knew it would be cancelled. That's why she jumped. But Riley had left during that period, and Spike had clumsily begun to reform. Clearly he did love Buffy, and Dawn by the end of season 5, and Buffy trusted him to watch over Dawn.

I tend to see Something Blue as where they started to tease a relationship. The spell said they should get married - not fall in love.

Buffy was never cancelled. It was about which network would be willing to pay more, WB or UPN, and UPN wanted Buffy more and paid more. Joss and co. always knew that if WB didn't renew it, UPN would.

bespangled
20-03-18, 05:10 AM
Buffy was never cancelled. It was about which network would be willing to pay more, WB or UPN, and UPN wanted Buffy more and paid more. Joss and co. always knew that if WB didn't renew it, UPN would.

The media of the time didn't play it that way. The cancellation was announced - then UPN picked it up which was extremely rare.

HardlyThere
20-03-18, 06:01 AM
The plan was never 5 seasons. The plan was as many seasons as possible.

I'm not sure why you seem to think that I believe Spuffy was a done deal/plan in season 4. I've said that I think they decided on it while preparing season 5, while season 4 was just teasing the shippers and playing with the idea as something that may or may not come to fruition. Kind of like it's obvious in season 1 that they were leaving Buffy/Xander and Xander/Willow as options.


"We talked about 5 seasons for a long time..." Joss said that. Paraphrased, but I think it's from Lessons commentary.

If you didn't think they were setting it up, fine, but from comments it certainly seems others were.


The show was cancelled at the end of season 5 - and they knew it would be cancelled. That's why she jumped.

Buffy wasn't cancelled. They knew well in advance UPN would be picking it up. Joss was off writing the musical while others were doing S5 episodes.

What happened was Fox got tired of losing money on the show and demanded more or they threatened to move it to Fox. The WB upped their offer, but would not pay more than what they claimed it pulled in ad revenue. After exclusive negotiations ended, UPN stepped in and offered a half a mill more per episode than the Frog was offering, so Fox sold it to them. They knew well before S5 ended it would be picked up, the question was by who.

The WB did play it like it was canceled because they were jerks and UPN was looking like a formidable rival.