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Priceless
15-02-18, 12:33 PM
What popular episode do you dislike? Why to you think it's so overrated?

For me it's I Only Have Eyes For You, a very popular season 2 episode that I just have major issues with. I know I'm in the minority and a lot of fans love this, but having Buffy made analogous to a murderer and feeling guilty for 'killing' Angel just deeply annoys me. Having Angel forgiving her is just beyond annoying. I've had long discussions with fans of this episode, and I still cannot get past my deep distaste.

So which popular episode do you dislike or think is overrated, and why?

vampmogs
15-02-18, 01:12 PM
Tabula Rasa.

I just think it is incredibly overrated. I barely laugh at any of the jokes and think a lot of the episode is awkwardly paced and stilted. The scenes of the Scoobies hiding from the vampire in the sewer are painfully dull and why is fifteen year old Dawn singing The Ants Go Marching. I mean, really? I know there was a tendency to write the character younger than she really was but, c'mon, she's not four. Also the 'fight' between Xander and the sewer vampire is really amateurish and poorly done. S6 has pretty uninspired action sequences overall but it's a real low even for the season.

I also think that the script is actually pretty poor as well with a bunch of characterisations that don't make sense. If we look at the base instincts of the characters, then I disagree that Xander would faint at the sight of a vampire (he didn't in WttH). I disagree that Willow would be instantly sexually attracted to Tara. I also disagree that Spike would be compelled to do good when his first instinct as a soulless vampire would be to hunt and kill. And why would Buffy and Dawn automatically act like squabbling sisters when they have no memories of each other? Lame.

I also dislike how glib they are about magic and how Giles and Anya are able to conjure monsters, skeletons and even rabbits without any magical knowledge or prowess. And I hate that ridiculous Loan Shark. Honestly, they should've been embarrassed to put that demon costume on screen.

Oh! And I'm not a big fan of Michelle Brant's Goodbye to You playing over the end scene. It's not the song itself but it just felt very un-Buffyesque to end an episode with a music montage. I'm used to seeing that on Greys Anatomy or The OC, not BtVS. I like S6 but it's moments like that where it felt the show was really turning into your typical soap opera/TV Drama.

It was a great premise that was completely wasted on a really mediocre script. Whedon's Spin the Bottle in AtS S4 is a total ripoff of this episode and yet it completely blows it out of the water. It was much funnier and more imaginative and truer to who the characters were. So, yeah, to say I find Tabula Rasa really overrated is to put it mildly. I will never, ever understand why it is so beloved in fandom. "Randy Giles" and a Giles/Anya kiss does not a good episode make.

Priceless
15-02-18, 01:22 PM
vampmogs I love Tabula Rasa, but it's not a comedy, it's a tragedy. This episode is Willow destroying her life and it's heart breaking to watch. It's also a heavy Spuffy episode and I love that without memory of who he really is, Spike wants to be/do good, but of course that's also tragic.

MikeB
15-02-18, 02:31 PM
"I Will Remember You" (A 1.08).

I didn't watch it when it first aired because I knew it would and could have zero impact on BtVS.

I forget when I first watched it. It may have been when I was watching the DVDs in 2004 C.E. or 2005 C.E.

Most seem to consider it very supportive of Buffy/Angel, but it's actually very harmful to it.

Buffy always wanted Angel to be human. Angel denies her that.

They are supposed to be very sexually attracted to each other. Yet after they kiss in the sunlight, it's something like 5-6 hours later and they are sitting at Angel's kitchen table being awkward together.

Buffy's sex with Angel seems relatively barely better than her sex with Parker Abrams.

Angel reverses the day without even telling Buffy and then waits to literally the last few minutes to tell her, seemingly merely to see her reaction.

Buffy's reaction is sorrow and tears. Not anger? Not being dumbfounded? The supposed love of her life just informed her he'd rather remain a vampire than be a human and be with her.

The aftermath has Angel's lashing out at Buffy in "Sanctuary" (A 1.19) for "moving on". Buffy is with Riley for over a year. Buffy was attracted to Dracula. Buffy gets with Spike and Spike eventually becomes the love of her life. The entire Shanshu Prophecy for Angel is about being able to be with Buffy (he already had that chance). Buffy in "Conversations With Dead People" (B 7.07) seemingly lists her relationship with Spike as the only relationship she had with a vampire.


Finally, what exactly was so great and special about Buffy/Angel when Angel was human? They ate food together. They were briefly in sunlight together. They then immediately go indoors for hours. They remain awkward with each other for 5-6 hours. They have sex that's not relatively much better than what Buffy experienced with Parker.

And many posters seem to consider that if Buffy found out about this 'lost day' in BtVS S6 or BtVS S7 or afterward that it would help Buffy/Angel. Such regard seems directly against canon. I consider that wasn't actually Buffy and instead something put in Angel's head by the PTB because Buffy woudln't react to Angel that way. She'd be overjoyed that Angel was human. They'd probably stay in the sunlight longer. She'd probably want to immediately have sex with him. She'd be furious at Angel's reversing the day or she'd consider that Angel didn't actually want to be with her anymore. Actual Buffy from "Dead Things" (B 6.13) to "Touched" (B 7.20) didn't know if Spike truly loved her. After "Chosen" (B 7.22), Buffy in BtVS S9 is shocked that Spike still is in love with her. She's shocked because Spike hadn't made a move to try to be with her. Why would Buffy in "IWRY" react different to Angel's literally rejecting her because he wants to remain a cursed vampire who can't be with her?

a thing of evil
15-02-18, 02:42 PM
Dislike is a bit of a strong word in my case but yeah, I'm not a huge fan of "Restless". I think it's kinda boring and Joss Whedon, due to his absolute inability to apply subtlety, sucks at oneirism. "Restless" is just too literal and lucid. Dreams are illogical, cryptic, weird, nonsensical, unbound. "Restless" is nothing like that, the gang's dreams are mostly mundane and banal. The episode ends up being an unentertaining and needless exercise at foreshadowing.

Also, I think that "Once More, with Feeling" is overrated. It's a very entertaining episode, sure, but it's not some great musical and it's nowhere near the best BtVS episode. Not even in top five.

Fool for Buffy
15-02-18, 02:46 PM
I like nearly all of the popular episodes, but I guess I don’t like Bargaining, and people sometimes consider that the best season premier. I can’t think of a fan favorite I don’t like though.

TimeTravellingBunny
15-02-18, 03:54 PM
I don't hate these episodes of Buffy, there are things I like about them, but Halloween and Band Candy are really overrated.

Halloween has the whole "Buffy turns into a noble lady from the 18th century and immediately becomes a cowardly idiot" plot, which is incredibly stupid, annoying and offensive - aside from showing the lack of knowledge of history on the part of the writers, it's a very bad case of shallow faux-feminism that goes into the nonsensical and borders on victim-blaming ("women of the previous centuries all sucked and were stupid and shallow and incompetent, unlike the awesome women of today!" - what?!) and then as a cherry on the top, we have Angel 'validating' Buffy because she's Not Like Other Girls, i.e. telling her he prefers her to the "vapid idiots" that the women of his day were... wow, Angel, and you're supposed to be a good guy before you lose your soul?

Band Candy is funny and enjoyable in many parts, but the premise is idiotic. No, teenagers are not all insane idiots with no sense of reason or responsibility who just go around drinking and partying and don't care if babies are stolen by demons. What the hell?! And then they even have Oz say "They act like us", which just underscores how much Oz and the other Scoobies don't act like that.
All it would have taken to fix this one is if they made it clear it was a spell that made people's id go wild and removed their sense of responsibility, rather than just "reverting them to when they were teenagers".

There is however a popular/well-regarded episode of Angel that I absolutely hate: A Hole in the World. It's one of the worst episodes of the show, IMO, an embarrassing and forced tearjerker that not only blatantly fridges Fred (complete with her forced last minute relationship with Wesley) but does it in the most annoying possible way. I cringe especially at the scene where helpless, dying Fred is surrounded by guys manpaining and goes "my boys..." The treatment of female characters in the last couple of seasons of Angel was generally awful, especially when they had both Cordelia and Fred be taken over and destroyed with no agency whatsoever on either of their part. They stopped being characters, Cordelia altogether, and Fred was just there to be a hurt innocent that others would manpain over, rather than a character with some views and choices of her own.
Ugh, I just hate that episode and that entire plot.

flow
15-02-18, 04:28 PM
vampmogs:
And I hate that ridiculous Loan Shark. Honestly, they should've been embarrassed to put that demon costume on screen.


I actually love Tabula Rasa, but I stand defeated here. Even I cannot really find anything positive to say about the loan shark :cry2:

a thing of evil:
Dislike is a bit of a strong word in my case but yeah, I'm not a huge fan of "Restless".

Is there really someone else in this world ? Am I not alone anymore ?

I wouldn`t say, that I dislike a single season, episode or character of BtVS, but Restless is an Episode, I can`t do anything with.

Spike and Giles on a swing ? Buffy in a sandbox ? Xander in an ice-truck ? A cheese-man ? am going to be very straightforward here and say, that I do not understand this episode at all. Maybe I am dumb or maybe there is nothing to understand about this episode and Joss was just trying to fool us all.

flow

Priceless
15-02-18, 04:32 PM
Agree with everything you say about Band Candy TTB. There is no way this was Joyce as a teenager. This is the woman who waited till her daughter was 17 to have the sex talk, and was so embarrassed. That is not the same Joyce who would throw caution to the wind, have sex on a police car and use handcuffs in play. This is adults wishing they had behaved a certain way as teenagers

Sosa lola
15-02-18, 09:22 PM
Another vote for Tabula Rasa. And Vampmogs states exactly why I hate it in his excellent post, especially this part:



I also think that the script is actually pretty poor as well with a bunch of characterisations that don't make sense. If we look at the base instincts of the characters, then I disagree that Xander would faint at the sight of a vampire (he didn't in WttH). I disagree that Willow would be instantly sexually attracted to Tara. I also disagree that Spike would be compelled to do good when his first instinct as a soulless vampire would be to hunt and kill. And why would Buffy and Dawn automatically act like squabbling sisters when they have no memories of each other? Lame.


As a Xander fan, I feel so insulted by the passive coward we were shown in the episode and the later seasons in general (when we had 16 year old Xander going down the sewers to rescue Jesse a few hours after he learned that vampires were real.)

I also hated how Spike was written and the dig at Angel felt so lame and on the nose. I much prefer how AtS handled Angel losing his memories. It was far more realistic that he'd feel an urge to bite the humans around him.

Tara and Willow being instantly attracted to each other/Buffy and Dawn figuring they're sisters?? LAME!!

My favorite part of the episode was the Randy/Rupert/Enya part because the character relationships were mixed up in a funny and original way. I enjoyed that part a lot.

Stoney
16-02-18, 01:32 AM
I do like virtually every episode plenty, so I'm probably in line with most of the popular ones. But I suppose I could say Band Candy I rate lower than most because I don't like the Joyce/Giles of it much at all. :noidea:

Nebula1400
17-02-18, 02:59 AM
Restless. I don't dislike it, but I don't really care for it, either.

PaulParmar1
19-02-18, 07:59 PM
Restless! I can't stand that episode at all.

DeepBlueJoy
18-05-18, 03:20 AM
The only episodes of Buffy I actively dislike, I believe other people aren't fond of either...

Doublemeat Palace and Normal again.

Normal Again is probably the episode I skip most frequently. I won't say I hate it, but I come as close as I can to that. I've also given The Pack the skip quite a lot too.

I find Dead Things and Seeing Red really hard to watch. The Body is hard too, but for much different reasons. I don't hate it, I just find it really painful.

For highly rated episodes, the one I probably like the least is Hush. It is just... creepy. I do believe it's very well done, but I am not a fan of horror movies, believe it or not... so I don't really enjoy it that much.

And the whole thing where Riley is busy giving up his secret identity and so is Buffy... really is kind of hard to believe. The series gets a lot of military stuff wrong, but Riley is just a really bad soldier.

The not talking part is interesting. I like the Tara and Willow bits. Still, this hit may deserve emmys but it's not my favorite.

On Angel, I will remember you is popular, but it annoys me b/c to me it shows that Angel can't bear the idea of being rescued by a girl... can't deal with being weak. Can't deal with the loss of control. It doesn't feel like him protecting her. It feels like him deciding for her and that aggravates me. The fact she's not even allowed to remember? That feels like a violation of Buffy.

Most of what I hate about Angel the series centers around everything that is Cordelia and Connor... so, pretty much every scene they are a couple, even if there's no sex involved makes me at least slightly nauseated. Seeing them together makes me want to break my tv, the box set and find someone on that show's directorial staff to hurt. And then I found out about the politics behind all that, and it only made me angrier. Over time, it has made me watch Angel less and less. The entire series. Just as no one comes back from pedophile sex, I think the series crossed a line... she wasn't a villain, and she became one. And the show became a show where they lovingly and in great detail showed what to me amounts to incestuous sex. (just without showing the interlocking parts)

People mention that he was 'of age' but he wasn't from 'around here'. He had no clue about real life, and she was the closest thing he'd ever had to a mother. Her being with him was taking advantage... by the time we find out that it's not 'really' Cordelia, they've ruined HER, made me dislike Connor and made me feel less than sanguine about the show... and made it so I was not sure if I wanted to ever see my favorite character on the series again. And then they killed her, so she never really got a way to be a hero again, to redeem herself by not being that monster we last saw her as. Your Welcome was an insult to the old Cordelia, though at the time, it was a relief to see her and have hope... but... How could she not even get a funeral?

Funny thing? When it was on, I didn't really see all of it as it was airing, so it was very confusing to figure out who Connor was, and why Cordelia was with him... but... once I saw it in order... yuck, yuck, yuck.

Rebcake
18-05-18, 07:26 AM
For me, it's Amends. It's not about Buffy — her choices, or her mistakes — which irks me. I dislike how hard it stresses that Angel is Super Special to the point that his free will means nothing. The Magic Snow is not only badly done and not snow-like, it's a higher power (supposedly) exerting its will to save the day, something we never see before or again. It's more AtS than BtVS, and I vastly prefer BtVS.

That said, I love the Willow/Oz (Barry White!) parts of the episode, and the bits with Faith. There's always something to love in the worst or most forgettable episodes.

DeepBlueJoy
18-05-18, 05:00 PM
amends is an episode that mostly just flows by for me. it doesn't do it for me. cannot hate it, but i mostly find i barely remember it some of the other episodes 'pop' in my head in technicolor. It is kind of washed out. meh.

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Another vote for Tabula Rasa. And Vampmogs states exactly why I hate it in his excellent post, especially this part:



As a Xander fan, I feel so insulted by the passive coward we were shown in the episode and the later seasons in general (when we had 16 year old Xander going down the sewers to rescue Jesse a few hours after he learned that vampires were real.)

I also hated how Spike was written and the dig at Angel felt so lame and on the nose. I much prefer how AtS handled Angel losing his memories. It was far more realistic that he'd feel an urge to bite the humans around him.

Tara and Willow being instantly attracted to each other/Buffy and Dawn figuring they're sisters?? LAME!!

My favorite part of the episode was the Randy/Rupert/Enya part because the character relationships were mixed up in a funny and original way. I enjoyed that part a lot.

I have issues with the episode, but I won't go into it, just to say that it annoys me mostly b/c of the ending...

And portrayals of Xander as a coward? I never really understand that.

XANDER IS WHY WE HAVE A BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER.

HE, not Angel, not Rupert Giles the watcher, is the reason that they go down into the pit after her and he gives her CPR. Xander goes to confront morose, moping Angel and drags him down to the Master's lair.

Yes, oh and he does follow Buffy down to try to save Jesse. That is impressive... but he doesn't really know the danger fully yet.

But going down into the Master's lair? That is truly dangerous for a human... and he KNOWS how terrifying it all is by then. And it took balls to go to Angel's too... after everyone was 'waah waah, buffy's dead, i'll wring my hands, waah, waah.' Really? What was their malfunction?

I have issues with some of Xander's behavior at times, but I NEVER see him as cowardly. Cowards don't get their eye's dug out by uber-powerful demon priests defending strangers and friends.

I think that Xander has the ultimate Ginger Rogers going on. He does everything that Buffy and Faith and Willow and Giles do... BUT he has no training, no super strength and no magic. Just balls to beat the band.

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I do like virtually every episode plenty, so I'm probably in line with most of the popular ones. But I suppose I could say Band Candy I rate lower than most because I don't like the Joyce/Giles of it much at all. :noidea:
not my favorite episode either, but it has its moments. And I wish we'd seen more Giles/Joyce action... They were cute.

...but there's so much chemistry with Giles and Ethan. Those two... they hate each other a little too much. sigh.