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View Full Version : Did Spike and Buffy have sex in Chosen?



Priceless
31-01-18, 10:59 AM
I remember watching this episode for the first time and thinking a scene had been cut :s What happened? Did they sleep together or not?

It would be more romantic and spiritual if they didn't, but I think Buffy is facing the fight of her life, she's not sure if she will survive or if Spike will survive, I think it would be only natural if they made love. So I've never been sure if it happened or not, what do you think?

MikeB
31-01-18, 12:22 PM
I remember Joss Whedon said they did. I remember he said it was the only reason he included the "cut out" scene in "Chosen" (B 7.22).

As-is, it's very likely they had sex after "Get It Done" (B 7.15).

Because of Buffy's having sex with Spike in "As You Were" (B 6.15) partly because she wanted "cold comfort" because of Riley's being married, Spike wouldn't have wanted to have sex with Buffy in "Touched" (B 7.20) and Buffy knew that.


On a wider front, Buffy was in love with Spike in BtVS S6 and after: post-"Seeing Red" (B 6.17), it seems in "Beneath You" (B 7.02) she probably wanted to have sex with him. The soul and his seeming to want to die hampered that. But by "Potential" (B 7.12) at-latest its there again. Spike was forcing a Platonic relationship between them but Buffy in "Get It Done" (B 7.15) had become beyond frustrated with Spike's not fighting for her and not having sex with her.

In addition, I simply don't understand the notion that it would have been better for Buffy/Spike if they didn't have sex in BtVS S7. "In love" means "love with the addition of wanting to have sex or 'make love' with the person".

Priceless
31-01-18, 12:47 PM
In addition, I simply don't understand the notion that it would have been better for Buffy/Spike if they didn't have sex in BtVS S7. "In love" means "love with the addition of wanting to have sex or 'make love' with the person".


I think it comes down to the reasons for having sex. After S6, seeing them having sex simply for comfort or out of fear of coming death, just wouldn't sit right. The audience would have to understand that they were having sex because they loved each other, and although I believe they loved each other, I wonder if the majority of the audience would buy that.

TimeTravellingBunny
31-01-18, 02:34 PM
I think it was meant to be ambiguous, and I think Joss said the audience could take it any way they wanted.

flow
31-01-18, 02:40 PM
I have to admit, that I have no clue, where canon tells us, that they had sex after Get It Done.

To me the last basement scene in Chosen is the most beautiful scene in the whole series. We are not being told, what happens, because Joss wanted it that way. It was deliberately left to our own imagination, wether they talked, played checkers, slept, argued or made love.
And to me it doesn`t even make a difference, what they did. When Buffy comes down those steps and they stand face to face, they are finally there. They have made it through all this darkeness and pain and violence. And it has not driven them apart. their journey has led them to each other. It is not important, if they have sex or not. The important thing is, that nothing stands between them anymore.

I remember Stoney mentioning somewhere, that it was later stated in the comics, that they did not have sex that night. As I don`t read the comics, I donīt care about that ;-) To me, it is still possible, that they did have sex. Or that they did not. And that`s, what makes this scene so unique and beautiful.

flow

TimeTravellingBunny
31-01-18, 02:46 PM
I have to admit, that I have no clue, where canon tells us, that they had sex after Get It Done.

To me the last basement scene in Chosen is the most beautiful scene in the whole series. We are not being told, what happens, because Joss wanted it that way. It was deliberately left to our own imagination, wether they talked, played checkers, slept, argued or made love.
And to me it doesn`t even make a difference, what they did. When Buffy comes down those steps and they stand face to face, they are finally there. They have made it through all this darkeness and pain and violence. And it has not driven them apart. their journey has led them to each other. It is not important, if they have sex or not. The important thing is, that nothing stands between them anymore.

I remember Stoney mentioning somewhere, that it was later stated in the comics, that they did not have sex that night. As I don`t read the comics, I donīt care about that ;-) To me, it is still possible, that they did have sex. Or that they did not. And that`s, what makes this scene so unique and beautiful.

flow

It was never stated either way. But a lot of people probably thought they didn't because their first time in the comics was such a big deal. This, however, doesn't mean anything - they hadn't had sex with each other for years, he had died, they had been separated, a lot of things had happened in the meantime...so of course it was going to be a big deal either way.

Priceless
31-01-18, 03:01 PM
But I think it does matter what happened that night because at the end Buffy tells Spike she loves him, and he says she doesn't. I think there might be a link back to that scene as to why Spike didn't believe her. If they did make love then I think Spike would have been more open to her telling him she loved him.

GoSpuffy
31-01-18, 04:56 PM
But I think it does matter what happened that night because at the end Buffy tells Spike she loves him, and he says she doesn't. I think there might be a link back to that scene as to why Spike didn't believe her. If they did make love then I think Spike would have been more open to her telling him she loved him.
Except Spike and Buffy are complicated so it's never that easy. I think they did have sex and for the first time it was making love. It was gentle and caring and tender and Spike had never had that experience with anyone ever, just one more thing to confuse him. Spike knew the amulet would likely kill him, you can see it on his face as he sits on his cot looking at it. He was committed come what may to be Buffy's champion. He did not want her to stay in danger so he thanked her for loving him and sent her to safety. Spike wasn't thinking about the sex and what it meant, he was thinking that he had found a way to show Buffy , not tell, how much he loved her and to make up for the A/R. Spike like Buffy is more about the actions than the words.

TimeTravellingBunny
31-01-18, 05:12 PM
Except Spike and Buffy are complicated so it's never that easy. I think they did have sex and for the first time it was making love. It was gentle and caring and tender and Spike had never had that experience with anyone ever, just one more thing to confuse him. Spike knew the amulet would likely kill him, you can see it on his face as he sits on his cot looking at it. He was committed come what may to be Buffy's champion. He did not want her to stay in danger so he thanked her for loving him and sent her to safety. Spike wasn't thinking about the sex and what it meant, he was thinking that he had found a way to show Buffy , not tell, how much he loved her and to make up for the A/R. Spike like Buffy is more about the actions than the words.

Words cannot describe how much I hate the "making luurve is different from sex because it's all gentle and tender, and probably set to Sarah McLachlan music" stereotype. :rolleyes: :sleeping:

BTW, Buffy/Parker sex, as much as we saw of it (and going by Buffy's description of it as "nice"), seemed to be of the "all boring and vanilla tender and Sarah McLachlan-soundtracked" kind...

flow
31-01-18, 05:18 PM
But I think it does matter what happened that night because at the end Buffy tells Spike she loves him, and he says she doesn't. I think there might be a link back to that scene as to why Spike didn't believe her. If they did make love then I think Spike would have been more open to her telling him she loved him.

But if you believe, that Spike did not believe Buffy at the end of Chosen, you can always link that to the beasment Scene and them NOT having sex, because Joss deliberately did not Show us, what happened. We often in the Buffyverse are free, to look at a Scene this way or another. Was Spike the doctor or not ? Did Xander summon Sweet ? Did Buffy love Riley ? Did Spike and Buffy have sex or not. If you think, that Spike did not believe Buffy, it makes more sense, that they did not have sex.

Like GoSpuffy, I think, that Spike believed Buffy and his "No you don`t", was his way of setting her free, to a life without him, because he knew, he was dying.

But you can look at this scene in many different ways as well. You can think, he was just quoting her or he was trying to be funny or he was going for a Han Solo moment or he really did not believe her.


Words cannot describe how much I hate the "making luurve is different from sex because it's all gentle and tender, and probably set to Sarah McLachlan music" stereotype.


I guess, if you think, you are going to die in the next twelve hours, even Sarah Mclachlan can grow on you a lot :lol:

flow

TimeTravellingBunny
31-01-18, 05:32 PM
Han Solo was doing the opposite of Spike, he was acknowledgimg that he realised Leia did love him even when she was doing her best to deny it, which os what she had been doing for the previous 2 (or how long it had been they had known each other), while Spike was doing, well, the opposite.

I was really happy that the first time Buffy and Spike had sex in the comics, it was hot and passionate, not yhe "Sarah McLachlan" kind some people were expecting.

flow
31-01-18, 05:43 PM
Han Solo was doing the opposite of Spike

That is true, but they both were trying to be the coolest guy on earth (or well, wthatever planet it was for Han Solo). The meaning was different, but the vibe was the same. If you see the Scene in this way. I still think, it can be seen in many ways.

flow

Fool for Buffy
31-01-18, 09:39 PM
I don’t think they had sex. The point of those three nights they spent together was to show their emotional closeness and contrast with season 6. Even though it would have been good and loving sex, I think it wasn’t what either of them needed or wanted.

GoSpuffy
01-02-18, 12:03 AM
The sex wasn't the important thing at this point. They were facing the potential end of the world or the end or their lives and they chose to spend their remaining time with each other. That what I loved about the cut away scene. You spend your last moments with those you love most.

Priceless
01-02-18, 10:23 AM
I'm still torn. These two had a strong physical bond. Even if they aren't having sex, they are often touching, cuddling, holding hands etc. So for me it isn't a great leap to think they made love. But the romantic in me thinks it would be beautiful if they just held each other and talked, or spent all night whittling stakes :p

Stoney
01-02-18, 09:14 PM
I don't think they did at all, I don't think it fits that season and the point of the different ground they were forging with each other. Plus, I do think the comics have ruled it out tbh (although no, it isn't directly stated/referenced). I haven't reread it recently but I remember thinking when they had their revisit to the hellmouth that their conversation then would have been really strange if they had slept together since S6 and everything about their joint uncertainty on getting back together after that, about going there again, would be far less coherent if they had already crossed that boundary since Spike became souled I think (although I take the point that it has been a long time anyway, but still think it works better if not). That the official continuation leans towards it, as I read it, isn't too surprising I suppose as Joss said in the commentary I think I was told that he doesn't think they would have. Even though I do think he has said, and it was left ambiguous for individual interpretation in how it was shot. Personally, I think it's better that way, that S7 wasn't about sex for them at any point but support and emotional closeness.

- - - Updated - - -

Okay, I've looked it up and I was thinking of Stormwreath's (who used to post here) transcription of Joss' Chosen commentary that was posted on his livejournal (https://stormwreath.livejournal.com/53253.html). Re: them lying down to sleep together, Joss says...


"The idea behind their sleeping together was very important. It was that their relationship had enough trust in it: that it was physical and romantic but not sexual. That was, of course, in response to the rape issue of last year, when he had attempted to rape her because he didn't understand the boundaries of their relationship – he was soulless. But having gotten his soul and having fought to become a person, we wanted to say this man can be redeemed from that.

Not – and I've said this before, but I'll say it again – not in a Luke and Laura "he rapes her and they get married" way. Not in an "all is forgiven" way. Just in the way of he's still a human being who did a wrong thing and we still count him as a human being. I think that's a very important message, that their relationship should be complicated, and yet come to a place of trust. Without saying "Okay, now they're going to become lovers again", because I think that would be wrong. I think that's the wrong message. It's a very fine line."

So I think Joss was coming at it very much the way we've been saying, it wasn't about that for them at this point. Heck, he's even going as far as saying it wouldn't have been right for them to get back to that so quickly/easily in fact (which is how I take his last comment). Obviously they still left it up for interpretation at the time, but it fits with the length of time that it has taken for them to come back together and the amount of direct attention given to them working through their history further too that this was Joss' perspective on it. :)

- - - Updated - - -

EDIT (again!): Actually I've just found further reference in the commentary later on. The first isn't the last night (above), it's the drowning in footwear night, this comment from Joss below is the later before the battle night, when Buffy goes downstairs to see Spike. It's odd really as it somewhat contradicts what he said above, but I suppose those are his thoughts on them and he did, as we've said, want to leave that ambiguity for the audience...


And this bit here I did actually add on set. Not just the picture of Butthead on the punching bag but this, where I said I wanted to get a couple of shots. We were going fast – and that one, I didn't know if I was going to use the two of them. And to me it's almost the most important shot in the show because it really shows the mystery of their relationship. And that's one where I wanted the audience to fill in the blanks. I wanted them – I wanted whatever you want to have happened, to have happened. If people believe that on their last night together they made love, great! If they believe that on their last night together they talked all night, great! If they believe that they had a fight, great!

Whatever it is, it's up to the viewer and I think that the viewer has earned that, and I love that elliptical nature of their last night together. I think that there should be work for the viewer to do, in that sense, emotionally, because I think it makes it more textured. And that shot of the two of them looking at each other, I just find beautiful.


I still think the comic continuation works most coherently from the belief that they didn't. But I would have to reread the hellmouth issues to pin down what it was that was said which made me feel that it was weird if they had. :confused3:

--
I'm sorry flow for obviously talking about it in the past in a way that was too definitive. Most likely because I do feel certain personally and think the them of S7, how they have responded to each other every time since and where they have gotten to now just all works much, much better if they didn't. I'll try to find the time to look at the comics and see what it was about/in the hellmouth conversation, but it won't be any time soon as I'm still not up to date with the rewatch thread. :faint:

betta
03-02-18, 01:53 AM
I was really happy that the first time Buffy and Spike had sex in the comics, it was hot and passionate, not yhe "Sarah McLachlan" kind some people were expecting.

I am with you on this 100%. They both love each other, they both like sex very much, they know (in the biblical sense) each other very well. Their wounds were all healed by then, no reasons for holding back. (And that's why Buffy needs a supernatural partner, to keep up with her...)

But concerning their last night in S7, if they had had sex, I believe it would have been... less passionate, like if they needed a reconnection before going wild again.

Priceless
03-02-18, 11:58 AM
But concerning their last night in S7, if they had had sex, I believe it would have been... less passionate, like if they needed a reconnection before going wild again.


I think you are right, and it would be more spiritual and meaningful then just hot and passionate (though there is nothing wrong with hot passion). I think of it being more William-esque/Buffy then Vampire/Slayer, in that they'd both be at their most gentle and loving. I cannot image these two, facing probable death, just holding each other at this point. They've reconnected on an emotional level, and for this couple the physical is as important as the emotional so I think they would both want that physical connection

Stoney
03-02-18, 03:26 PM
As I think flow said, the 'no you don't but thanks for saying it' is harder to make sense of if they did and it was all deeply emotional. I just can't see it playing a part in S7, it just wasn't about that between them and it was important that it wasn't I think. I also am not convinced Spike would have felt comfortable going there at that point and that it wouldn't have actually set them back a bit for him to have felt potentially used again (although you could weigh that in to explain why he didn't return to her when recorporealised, it has a negative connotation to it that I think is disappointing to add in at that early stage of coming to care for each other on a different level). I think it says so much more about them and what they ended up meaning to each other that sex didn't play a part in the season personally. :)

I'd also say that it somewhat reduces the progress overall from S6 to now if they slept together sooner and it was just left at that. The steady and deep reconnection they managed if that didn't happen until later when they had come to know each other better post him becoming souled I think just makes for a better overall relationship path. Mileage probably just will just vary greatly on this one, but I find the way they interact S8-10 is less coherent if they had breached that boundary together already. I really need to reread that hellmouth conversation in S10 because something struck me in it and I can't remember what it was. There are just soooo many other things I'm supposed to be doing. :confused3:

flow
03-02-18, 03:57 PM
@Stoney, thanks a lot for looking up those two comments on the first basement night and the second Basement night. I do think, that Joss is absolutely right about both scenes. The first night showed us all the trust and the connection they had build up over this year. And that is, I think, why it is so important, that they did not have sex during this night, because it would have shifted the focus to something else.
The writers made very clear, that they did not have sex that night by showing them waking up in the same clothes, they had on, the night before (although The First then calls Spike "your dead lover", while talking to Buffy and Buffy immediately looks to Spike, which is a bit odd - but maybe lover can also refer to a person, you are only romantically but not sexually involved with ?)

Anyway, the second basement night really is to me the most important scene in the show, just like Joss said it. And to me it is less important, if they did have sex or not, it is much more important, that the writers did not show it to us and thus let us make the decision for ourselves.

I am constantly changing my mind about that scene, actually ;-). I can see them passionate and wild and I can see them having vamilla sex and I can see them just holding each other the whole night long. Yes, they are both very tactile and physical persons, but sex is not the only way, to be intimate, as we have so beautifully seen in Touched. So, either way is just fine with me !

flow

Priceless
03-02-18, 05:08 PM
I am constantly changing my mind about that scene, actually ;-). I can see them passionate and wild and I can see them having vamilla sex and I can see them just holding each other the whole night long. Yes, they are both very tactile and physical persons, but sex is not the only way, to be intimate, as we have so beautifully seen in Touched. So, either way is just fine with me !


This is how I feel too flow. Sometimes I think they did make love and sometimes I think they didn't. I change my mind on every re-watch, so it's nice to know other people are as uncertain as I am

GoSpuffy
03-02-18, 08:45 PM
I also go back and forth. Sometimes I think they were somewhere in the middle, caressing and kissing but not completing.

Stoney
03-02-18, 11:22 PM
I posted this in the wrong thread at first just to completely confuse myself. :faint: :xd


Anyway, the second basement night really is to me the most important scene in the show, just like Joss said it. And to me it is less important, if they did have sex or not, it is much more important, that the writers did not show it to us and thus let us make the decision for ourselves.

I am constantly changing my mind about that scene, actually ;-). I can see them passionate and wild and I can see them having vamilla sex and I can see them just holding each other the whole night long. Yes, they are both very tactile and physical persons, but sex is not the only way, to be intimate, as we have so beautifully seen in Touched. So, either way is just fine with me !

I have to say, for me personally, them not getting physical again so early on in their new dynamic/relationship is far more appropriate writing following the abusive side of their physical relationship in S6 and especially considering the attempted rape. I don't think physical intimacy as well as their developing emotional intimacy would have been a good message so soon. Pretty much what Joss said in the earlier episode commentary point in relation to the whole season.

I often hear the season criticised for not following up the AR properly and I don't have that same feeling myself. I think how Buffy handles the trauma she experienced doesn't have to involve dealing with it openly so soon. Some people process these things in privacy and take time to adjust. I think it works well for Buffy's characterisation that she would have contained her emotional response and kept them to herself a great deal at first. She did openly react to him being in close proximity to her when he initially came to help, so I don't think it was entirely absent, or that the lesser degree to which it was openly covered was unrealistic. That they eventually covered an aspect of trauma caused from it for her in S10 I thought was really well done and a believable distance for her to then directly face and process some of the result of it. But I have to be honest, part of my acceptance that the attempted rape is being treated seriously is not just satisfied in Spike having gotten his soul and his remorse, but it is how they are steadily getting to know each other and what they can be to each other anew. That it isn't in any way sexually physical this time between them. For me, personally, them sleeping together in S7 would be the writing not taking the events of SR as seriously as it should. That there is never any hint that they were intimate in S7 in the text I think is because although they left the ambiguous opening there if people would like to imagine it happened, Joss' earlier comment makes it seem clear the writing team weren't going to opt to take them there so soon.

You know, with how much time I've spent pondering on all this and responding, I probably could have read the hellmouth issues again three times over. :lol:

SpuffyGlitz
15-03-18, 08:46 PM
I think this season was about how Spike HELD BACK on his attraction to Buffy (he was still insanely attracted to her, obviously!), but instead he played it down and let his love and respect for her show. In the previous season, Spike loves Buffy, but he seems to view her as invincible and impenetrable and thinks that if he can just find some chink in her armour, he will break through her barriers and connect with her. After sex, he seemed to yearn for this each time: ("What is this to you?...Do you even like me?") He maybe felt that at least he could connect to her physically. He loved her then, but he would often suppress that side and let his attraction/lust for her show because it felt safer (since every time he spoke of his love she rejected him.)

Then, after SR, he stopped seeing her as invincible and saw the full horror of his brutality to the one person he most loved, and was mortified/horrified at himself. At that point, I think, he fully realises she isn't JUST a super-powerful invincible love object to be "obtained" by any means possible, but a fragile human being whom he has hurt -- it now sinks in that he almost did this monstrous thing to the one he loves most in an ironic attempt to "win" her back. This is the start of his love changing ad going through a maturing process.

His physical attraction was always only a component of his feelings, the main driving force was love, and I suspect in S6 he was too afraid of letting that show openly, or was comfortable in fully admitting it to himself (in SR he rants to Clem "It wasn't supposed to be this way...god...what has she done to me?") In this season, I feel like Spike surrenders ALL those previous protective instincts and defense mechanisms and lets his vulnerability fully show, even if it's to his detriment ("the whole "having my pride" thing was just a smokescreen.."). He seems to have internally admonished himself and trained himself to keep his desire in check and do whatever he can to be supportive of her.

A really good example of this is First Date, when he sees Buffy in a skimpy top and schools himself to not stare, then chivalrously tries to reassure her that she's not hurting him and she's free to go on dates if she likes (even though you can see it's killing him that she's going on a date...but he's attempting to push down his feelings for her sense of freedom, he tries to disguise it for her sake so that she doesn't feel she "owes" him anything.)

His love has matured a lot, he is trying to be truly selfless in this season. In season 7, he is almost reverent in his behaviour towards her, very gentle, he tries to keep it platonic, and he wears his heart on his sleeve at several points. He willingly admits (even to The First) that her belief in him is what keeps him going. In two crucial episodes, his shift from bravado to absolute surrender and vulnerability is underscored: in Beneath You he literally bares his soul and you can feel how hard it is for him to reveal the depth of his feelings ("I can't....not with you looking..."), then in End of Days, he admits he is terrified ("God I'm such a jerk...I can't do this...It was the best night of my life. And if you poke fun at me you bloody well use that cos I couldn't bear it...") In Sleeper, he lets it show too: ("Cause --- God help me, Buffy --- it's still all about you.")

So I guess this is my long winded way of saying --- when we finally get to the last episode Chosen, I think while they most definitely kissed and cuddled and embraced, they would have only made love if Buffy gave a clear signal or initiated it, and it wouldn't have been like before - not "vanilla" (because nothing between them ever can be) and definitely not any less passionate but just filled with reverence and very deep love, which makes it all the more romantic. I also don't think it's just Buffy processing through the aftermath of SR, I think in many ways it's as hard for Spike to be intimate with her because it's a reminder of what he was, what he had done, there are moments when just her presence or touch sets off intense feelings of shame. I think Spike needed time getting over those residual feelings too before he felt he "deserved" sexual intimacy again with Buffy.

debbicles
15-03-18, 10:26 PM
SpuffyGlitz, this is beautiful and I agree 100% with every word. Really enjoying this thread.
I veer between wanting them to have enjoyed one last night of passion and understanding that realistically it doesn't make a lot of emotional sense at that stage.
However, Buffy made it quite clear for a long time that Spike was always the first person she went to see when she came home. In The Killer in Me she goes down to have a chat with him after the Potentials leave, in Dirty Girls, Dawn has to check that she is back by calling down. She hasn't made it to the rest of the house, it's him she wants to see.
So I think they get to spend their last nights with the person they care about the most. And that is better than romantic, better than anything else. Really.