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GoSpuffy
20-01-18, 06:07 PM
There seem to be so many different ideas on Spike/Angels relationship it might be fun to take a look at some different opinions.

I think vampires have sex with anyone or anything because, hey, soulless and evil, they do as they like. We saw Angel seeing to Dru in a flashback so we know he wasn't a one man vamp with Darla. And it is implied that Darla had a thing for the master so maybe it's a family thing to do when pretty much every vamp we see is involved with their sire. We know Spike regards Angel as his sire so it's not a stretch for me to imagine they did the dirty. When Spike refers to "that one time" I think he's referring to the one time it was more like love and less like vamp sex.

As souled vampires I think they revert back to their human morality. Hence Angel doesn't sleep with Dru until after he's lost his soul. So I can't really see souled Spike and Angel as having a physical connection because they've gone back to their heterosexual tendencies.

I see souled Spike and Angel as brothers. Siblings that love each other and hate each other. They can't live together now that they're adults but no one is going to mess with their family. I love the banter and dynamic the two characters have. They bring out both the best and the worst in each other.

What are they to you?

vampmogs
20-01-18, 09:36 PM
I think vampires have sex with anyone or anything because, hey, soulless and evil, they do as they like.


As souled vampires I think they revert back to their human morality. Hence Angel doesn't sleep with Dru until after he's lost his soul. So I can't really see souled Spike and Angel as having a physical connection because they've gone back to their heterosexual tendencies.

I know this probably wasn't intentional but you've just equated gay sex with being "soulless and evil" and then implied than when the characters have souls and are 'good' again they go back to their "heterosexual tendencies." As I said, I doubt you meant anything by it, but you've just implied than in order for Angel/Spike to have sex they essentially have to lose their morality. It's really offensive and it's an opinion that is banded about in fandom quite a lot and even stated by Joss as well. I'll always remember Whedon's quote that Angel and Spike would have had sex because they were "all kinds of deviant." Joss actually thought he was being open-minded and progressive at the time when he stated that - not realising he just equated homosexuality with deviancy/evil.

I agree with you that Angel/Spike are more likely to have had sex as soulless than ensouled but I don't think it has anything to do with "morality." I think Spike had a tendency to say say some pretty homophobic things (repeatedly referring to Angel or other vamps as "poofs" etc) but I don't think he has any real moral objections to homosexuality. He never batted an eyelid at Willow/Tara. Likewise, Angel has always seemed pretty unfazed by societies prejudices as we saw in Are You Now or Have You Ever Been. For me, it boils down to the fact that as soulless vampires they have more of an inclination to "do what they want, take what they want" (as once described by Angelus) and that means feeling free to sleep with one another if they so desire without overcomplicating it as they would with a soul. There's also the fact that whilst there was certainly animosity between them as soulless vampires, they appear to have far more jealousy, anger and bitterness towards each other now souled due to their competitiveness over being champions and of course Buffy. Despite their rivalry over Drusilla's affections, I think they tended to get along far better 'back in the day which probably made them more inclined to show that interest in one another as opposed to now.

GoSpuffy
20-01-18, 10:16 PM
Yikes! That is totally NOT what I wanted to say at all. I'm totally pro-gay! Some of the people I love most in the world are queer including my child. I'm not sure if I should try and delete this post or just try to rectify my phrasing. Advice? Can posts be taken down? I'm horrified anyone might see my post that way.

I truly just meant pre vampire the characters were heterosexual, post vampire they are different beings with different feelings, put the soul in and they reset back to what they used to be. Liam and William were shown to be interested in women. Obviously if they were gay when they were human they'd be gay when returned to souled vampire state.

Silver1
20-01-18, 10:30 PM
'Conviction' AtS season 5


HAUSER
You really think you can solve the problem? Come into Wolfram and Hart and make everything right? Turn night into glorious day? You pathetic little fairy.

ANGEL
I'm not little.

A joke I know, but souled Angel obviously didn't have any issues with that. :)

vampmogs
20-01-18, 10:48 PM
Yikes! That is totally NOT what I wanted to say at all. I'm totally pro-gay! Some of the people I love most in the world are queer including my child. I'm not sure if I should try and delete this post or just try to rectify my phrasing. Advice? Can posts be taken down? I'm horrified anyone might see my post that way.

I truly just meant pre vampire the characters were heterosexual, post vampire they are different beings with different feelings, put the soul in and they reset back to what they used to be. Liam and William were shown to be interested in women. Obviously if they were gay when they were human they'd be gay when returned to souled vampire state.

As I said, I know that it probably wasn't intentional, and the creator has also made similar remarks that are unintentionally offensive, so I definitely don't think you meant to be offensive. It's fine. I just wanted to point it out. I think it was more the fact that you phrased it as Angel and Spike returning to back to their "human morality" (morality implies that they have a set of morals or ethics that are opposed to homosexuality) whereas I think what you were trying to say is that they reverted back to their old sexual preferences.

I assume what Whedon was trying to say was that Angelus/Spike would totally have had sex because it was considered "deviant" by human standards at the time, so they would have slept together as at the very least an act of rebellion. But since Angelus and Spike actually were evil it has unfortunate implications that Whedon would describe it as deviancy.

GoSpuffy
20-01-18, 11:28 PM
I think I used the word morality because it is often associated with souls as they are a religious concept. I can't even claim to believe in souls since I don't believe in religion. Clearly I'm confused. Hopefully people can turn this messy thread of my fault into a conversation on the relationship between two interesting characters.

TimeTravellingBunny
21-01-18, 12:08 AM
Here's the problem: I don't think that "morality" can change people's underlying sexual preferences. Vampires changing their sexual preferences in terms of who they're attracted to also makes very little sense to me. (If anything, they seem to have the same desires, like Jesse still wanting Cordelia.) If "morality" were the only thing standing in the way of Spike and Angel wanting to have sex with each other/wanting to have sex with men, that means that they're always attracted to each other on some level, just wouldn't act on it for some reason.

Priceless
21-01-18, 12:14 AM
I'm not sure the soul makes any difference because they are still vampires, and vampires seem to be pan-sexual. I'm not sure what effect a soul has on sexuality in the Buffyverse anyway.

I'm also not sure we can say William was completely straight. He appears to have had no sex of any kind and although he has deeply romantic feelings for Cecily, I don't know if that proves Williams sexuality one way or another.

Spangel works for me, but only if Buffy is dead. I don't think either vampire would turn to the other if Buffy were in the world and there was even the remotest possibility of them being together. I think the natural jealousy they have for each other would destroy any hope of them forming a romantic relationship.

If Buffy were to die, what would attract Spike and Angel to each other would be that connection the other had with her. I think from that starting point they could build a relationship, and as they've already had a sexual relationship I don't see any reason why that couldn't resume. They have a complex history together with so much in common, and they both feel passionately about the other. They enjoy physically fighting each other, and for vampires that has a sexual component anyway, so it's not a leap to think their relationship could become romantic.

My only issue would be that Angel doesn't handle relationships well, he walked away from Buffy and wiped Connors mind when he couldn't deal with him. I'd worry that he might do something similar to Spike if things got too complicated or difficult for him to handle.

TimeTravellingBunny
21-01-18, 12:19 AM
I'm not sure the soul makes any difference because they are still vampires, and vampires seem to be pan-sexual.
Do they? What are you basing that on?

Priceless
21-01-18, 12:25 AM
Do they? What are you basing that on?

I think from what we see on the show. I've only seen AtS twice, so I could be wrong, but I don't remember any vampire on either show refusing a sexual encounter for reasons of gender or sexuality.

TimeTravellingBunny
21-01-18, 02:04 AM
I think from what we see on the show. I've only seen AtS twice, so I could be wrong, but I don't remember any vampire on either show refusing a sexual encounter for reasons of gender or sexuality.

I don't remember any vampire on either show having sexual encounters with someone of the same sex, other than Vampire Willow being into Willow, and the sexual encounter Spike and Angel may have had. (And no, I don't count Darla and Dru having a threesome with the Immortal.)

vampmogs
21-01-18, 03:08 AM
Here's the problem: I don't think that "morality" can change people's underlying sexual preferences. Vampires changing their sexual preferences in terms of who they're attracted to also makes very little sense to me. (If anything, they seem to have the same desires, like Jesse still wanting Cordelia.) If "morality" were the only thing standing in the way of Spike and Angel wanting to have sex with each other/wanting to have sex with men, that means that they're always attracted to each other on some level, just wouldn't act on it for some reason.

This.

However, I think the reason vampires (like Angel and Spike) may be more willing to sleep with each other whilst soulless has less to do with 'morality' and more to do with them "being done living by society's rules." The way I see it, our biological sexual preferences make up, say, 70%-80% of who we choose to sleep with (I'm spitballing here), and then the other 20%-30% is made up of what society demands of us and the bigotry and discrimination still prevalent in everyday life. It's not a coincidence that for those who do choose to 'experiment' with their sexuality usually do it around the time of college/late teens-early twenties when people are discovering themselves, testing their limits, and starting to think more critically of the world and rebel. There's definitely a correlation between experimentation of sexuality and the freedoms that come with being a young adult as you leave the constraints of childhood/school/parents behind. We're conditioned to believe that if you're "straight" you couldn't possibly want to gain sexual pleasure through a member of the same sex even if it could possibly make you feel good (and vice versa). This is in part due to societies obsession with labels and rules but also the fear a lot of people have that if they were to experiment with another dude or girl that they'd be labelled gay and face the discrimination actual gay people face. So whilst I'm not of the school of "everyone is a little bi" I am of the opinion that more straight people (or gay people) would be willing to experiment more if there wasn't the baggage (and stigmas) that come with it.

So for vampires? That freedom they feel after being sired of being able to "do what you want, take what you want" and "being done living by societies rules", I think, plays a big part in why they're more open to sleeping with whomever. It doesn't mean their sexual preferences/sexuality has changed but simply that they're more open to experiencing sexual pleasure from a member of the same sex because they no longer are bound by all those fears and insecurities. They're very much in the "Want. Take. Have" frame of mind and willing to act out on their desires without the inhibitions they would have had as humans. So if it feels good for another guy to go down on you? So what? Just do it. If anybody judges them who cares or they'll just, ya know, kill them.

Stoney
21-01-18, 10:15 AM
It's interesting to hear your comment on what Joss said about Spike/Angel vampmogs as it always struck me as thoughtless/negative choice of wording, but you're the only other person I can remember hearing also say such.

I completely agree that vampires will have less care/regard for restrictions on what they choose to do and that this would also apply to sexual relationships. I don't however feel that this means that they would choose to sleep with anyone at any time. As TTB said, changing who they're actually attracted to through being sired doesn't make much sense to me. There's no reason to believe that their preferences would alter, they just might be more carefree about trying other things now and then, or even regularly. And this is what seems to be the case between Spike/Angel to me, they tried it, they didn't do it again. We've no idea of the circumstances but I can see their general rivals relationship dynamic being a good reason why it was the once and their personal preferences for hetrosexual relationships (which it appears they have) being another.

It does make sense that there would be shifts when becoming souled as there were when becoming unsouled, but just because their general social boundaries are changing at both points. I can't see souled Spike being as willing, for example, to be in a relationship with someone who is sleeping with someone else as he did when he accepted this with Dru/Angel unsouled. Although it was made clear that he wasn't happy about it even then, it wasn't what he wanted. So I think his sense of self worth in that way could shift once souled, but that has nothing to do with sexuality. That still works within the point of being sired not actually shifting sexual preference and the kind of thing vampmogs was saying about being soulless making them less interested in social rules. I think it also means that, potentially, being souled will make them more prone to be interested in wanting things for themselves that are within social norms too. Spike wanting a relationship where he is the only focus for his partner I can see becoming far stronger when souled.

I personally don't see sexual tension with Spike/Angel. They have a jealous rivals, brotherly vibe going on. It's a familial connection I think and I see no reason to believe that the one time was anything other than what has been said it was. I can see that there could be a power/dominance aspect in vampire society/hierarchy where sexual domination could be used. A further reveal like that from their past I think would add layers that fits their dynamic, but obviously canon hasn't gone there as it stands. Souled or not I'm confident neither are anti homosexual relationships, even despite Spike using derogatory terms at times, but what we see presents to me that they do have a clear sexual preference, and hetrosexual relationships are what they choose for themselves.

Priceless
21-01-18, 11:12 AM
When you are facing immortality and virtually everything is yours to take, why wouldn't you experience everything you could? Vampirism can be read as a metaphor for sex, if you can bite 'anyone' you can have sex with them, penetrate with the teeth, penetrate with the penis, it can be read as the same thing, sucking is sucking (sorry, I am new to the board and don't know how graphic we can go) I think the only extra dynamic the soul adds is that the vampire may now understand 'consent' or have a finer understanding of the emotional impact of having sex on the other person.

Silver1
21-01-18, 11:31 AM
I personally don't see sexual tension with Spike/Angel.

Nope! Nothing to see here alright. ;)

https://78.media.tumblr.com/229f355c02d1f9de995aa5734f82b65b/tumblr_p2sf78lpzh1qb4op4o9_400.gif https://78.media.tumblr.com/d32b6fea1b3292f6d8029af3ec4f5ae9/tumblr_p2sf78lpzh1qb4op4o2_400.gif

https://78.media.tumblr.com/fc1263a9bd2ad70a835032e18f69f2bb/tumblr_p2sf78lpzh1qb4op4o3_400.gifhttps://78.media.tumblr.com/ae8f1b0f6076656f94bfcd50ae16cf87/tumblr_p2sf78lpzh1qb4op4o6_400.gif

https://78.media.tumblr.com/e6780ac8d71788d3abf2531616607974/tumblr_p2sf78lpzh1qb4op4o4_400.gifhttps://78.media.tumblr.com/3db5dc5c4108a80ddd4f0a125cde3592/tumblr_p2sf78lpzh1qb4op4o1_400.gif

https://78.media.tumblr.com/e4ddcb514220def1cb26c7cde0612df3/tumblr_p2sf78lpzh1qb4op4o5_400.gifhttps://78.media.tumblr.com/e561185a6f74ef9970cd97afc73e6d12/tumblr_p2sf78lpzh1qb4op4o7_400.gif

https://78.media.tumblr.com/00065197d98dc1f7d9aeca3a10c8309e/tumblr_p2sf78lpzh1qb4op4o10_400.gifhttps://78.media.tumblr.com/c0421966d24347ceac04e40be21221c6/tumblr_p2sf78lpzh1qb4op4o8_400.gif

vampmogs
21-01-18, 11:35 AM
Nope! Nothing to see here alright. ;)

https://78.media.tumblr.com/229f355c02d1f9de995aa5734f82b65b/tumblr_p2sf78lpzh1qb4op4o9_400.gif https://78.media.tumblr.com/d32b6fea1b3292f6d8029af3ec4f5ae9/tumblr_p2sf78lpzh1qb4op4o2_400.gif

https://78.media.tumblr.com/fc1263a9bd2ad70a835032e18f69f2bb/tumblr_p2sf78lpzh1qb4op4o3_400.gifhttps://78.media.tumblr.com/ae8f1b0f6076656f94bfcd50ae16cf87/tumblr_p2sf78lpzh1qb4op4o6_400.gif

https://78.media.tumblr.com/e6780ac8d71788d3abf2531616607974/tumblr_p2sf78lpzh1qb4op4o4_400.gifhttps://78.media.tumblr.com/3db5dc5c4108a80ddd4f0a125cde3592/tumblr_p2sf78lpzh1qb4op4o1_400.gif

https://78.media.tumblr.com/e4ddcb514220def1cb26c7cde0612df3/tumblr_p2sf78lpzh1qb4op4o5_400.gifhttps://78.media.tumblr.com/e561185a6f74ef9970cd97afc73e6d12/tumblr_p2sf78lpzh1qb4op4o7_400.gif

https://78.media.tumblr.com/00065197d98dc1f7d9aeca3a10c8309e/tumblr_p2sf78lpzh1qb4op4o10_400.gifhttps://78.media.tumblr.com/c0421966d24347ceac04e40be21221c6/tumblr_p2sf78lpzh1qb4op4o8_400.gif

Wow it's been a while since I have rewatched AtS S5 and I had totally forgotten about this scene. It's a lot more blatant than I had recalled :blink:

Yeah they totally ****ed

Stoney
21-01-18, 11:40 AM
When you are facing immortality and virtually everything is yours to take, why wouldn't you experience everything you could? Vampirism can be read as a metaphor for sex, if you can bite 'anyone' you can have sex with them, penetrate with the teeth, penetrate with the penis, it can be read as the same thing, sucking is sucking (sorry, I am new to the board and don't know how graphic we can go) I think the only extra dynamic the soul adds is that the vampire may now understand 'consent' or have a finer understanding of the emotional impact of having sex on the other person.

I don't think anyone is saying that there wouldn't be a willingness or interest in exploring other things and enjoying pleasure from other sources/ways, but that this wouldn't have any reason to impact the likelihood of still having a personal preference. We don't see the vamps showing total fluidity and not leaning to a personal preference, they seem to have one and in the main act on it in just the same way that we see any other points of personality/individuality.

It's interesting to relate biting/killing to sexual assault and consent. Of course Dru and Darla gained an illusion of consent from William/Liam (they didn't know what they were agreeing to so couldn't in fact be consenting to what happens to them), but it is there and from that is somewhat distinct/different to a general feed/kill scenario where not even that manipulation is part of what happens. Again though, there is a sense of selection to siring someone as a partner and their sexual preferences are most likely in play in that scenario and who they're, erm, penetrating. :)


Nope! Nothing to see here alright. ;)

Ha. :) But no Silver1, I don't see that as sexual tension I see it as rivalry and competitive, challenging behaviour. There's a deliberate sexual edge to it no doubt, but in order to try and unsettle/challenge Spike and his willingness to break social boundaries now, as has been said (as is the lesson Angel teaches him in sleeping with Dru despite what Spike tells him of his hopes for him/Dru together too). I'd say there is a question within there towards masculinity, but it's mostly about there not being limitations now and who is alpha/stronger etc, so more about being rivals between them than potential lovers. It's just how they always seem to me. And, as far as we know, even if they really enjoyed it, they didn't choose to repeat whatever they did do. So my point still stands that the reasons for it being limited make sense to be about their dynamic not being so much lust-based and their preference not being that way either. :noidea:

Priceless
21-01-18, 12:15 PM
The first look Spike gives Angel is definitely fear, the that second look is something else, a mix of excitement and intrigue. I don't think it was a one time thing, I think they were long time lovers, just as Dru and Darla were.

Angel isn't just raping Spike, taking what he wants. He's enticing him, exciting him, wanting him to want it willingly. Angel is saying 'you can have anything now, and I'm available', I think.

Stoney
21-01-18, 12:18 PM
Yes I think he is intrigued by all of his new life and what it means, Angel is teaching him in challenging him against those social restrictions (and later with Dru). But it's said it was one time and nothing in their interactions to me gives any reason to disbelieve what was said and has never so far been contradicted. In fact, as I say, their rivalry smacks more of competition, their vibe more familial/brotherly generally than anything else and they don't show any inclination otherwise for choosing homosexual relationships. I just don't see any reason to believe its more than we've been told/showed.

Silver1
21-01-18, 12:23 PM
But no Silver1, I don't see that as sexual tension

Really? You really are a lost cause then. :lol:

I think gender is more fluid then people realise and that what someone presents to the world on the outside isn't necessarily the whole picture.

Stoney
21-01-18, 12:36 PM
But I'm not disagreeing with that, or the potential for it. I'm just going by what they actually show and choose to present. I don't know. Sure sometimes people can suppress things, but at the same time we're all talking about the freedom that these characters do feel (especially when sired/soulless) and so, for me, you should pay attention to the open choices that they are making. Same sex isn't something that they chose to do generally. Having sexual preference and showing it isn't a negative thing whatever your preference is. That people increasingly (because it still isn't perfect) feel their right to express their preferences and act on them should be celebrated and supported. This is why I'd always rather go by what is said and what is actually shown by the characters rather than change what someone has openly appeared to pick for themselves on this front in particular. I think it's important that this is part of accepting people for who they are, as much as not judging them for whatever their choices are.

Silver1
21-01-18, 12:46 PM
Sorry love, we're just going to have to agree to disagree here.

I've had these conversations with you in the past and I know that you (at least to me) appear to have one very strict view of characters and don't want to look beyond that. :)

Priceless
21-01-18, 12:48 PM
I think Spike says he and Angel were only 'intimate' once (IIRC?) and I read that as the same thing he says about himself and Buffy, that they were never 'close', when he and Buffy were having sex all the time. Spike the romantic doesn't see sex as 'intimacy' or 'closeness' once he gets a soul. I think he and Angel had a lot of sex, but their only chance of intimacy would be when they both had souls, just as Spike could only achieve closeness with Buffy once he was souled.

I don't know enough about Angel to really say how he would feel about sex with Spike, maybe he did just see it as a form of domination. As I say, for me Souled-Spangel would be about two vampires who were in love with a woman who had died, and that would form the basis of their relationship, it would be a form of comfort to begin with. I don't think it would happen if Buffy were still in the world.

Silver1
21-01-18, 01:16 PM
https://78.media.tumblr.com/9bc1cbaedd47b0e3a7ff11129e062ec2/tumblr_msvn6jB4mz1rsvb95o1_250.gif https://78.media.tumblr.com/a85a91eb5466c8b959abaab4ca1f1a3b/tumblr_msvn6jB4mz1rsvb95o2_250.gif

:lol:

Stoney
21-01-18, 01:51 PM
Sorry love, we're just going to have to agree to disagree here.

I've had these conversations with you in the past and I know that you (at least to me) appear to have one very strict view of characters and don't want to look beyond that. :)

I'm happy to agree to disagree but I really don't think that your impression of me is fair. It feels like you're just trying to diminish my point of view by implying I'm rigid or blinkered and that simply isn't true. I've certainly changed my perceptions of many characters in the past by discussing them with others, but I'll always revert to what the text shows alongside these discussions. And I just think sexuality isn't something that you can choose for someone, you should go by what they choose for themselves and with all the lack of respect people in real life get regarding sexual preference I'd always rather go by what someone is openly choosing for themselves. Angel and Spike are both clearly not opposed to same sex interactions, and I've no problem with that at all. It doesn't change the fact that it isn't something either of them actively chooses for themselves generally, from what we see and know for certain. But of course that is as things currently stand. It could be something that changes or where more is revealed about their history together.


I think Spike says he and Angel were only 'intimate' once (IIRC?) and I read that as the same thing he says about himself and Buffy, that they were never 'close', when he and Buffy were having sex all the time. Spike the romantic doesn't see sex as 'intimacy' or 'closeness' once he gets a soul. I think he and Angel had a lot of sex, but their only chance of intimacy would be when they both had souls, just as Spike could only achieve closeness with Buffy once he was souled.

I don't know enough about Angel to really say how he would feel about sex with Spike, maybe he did just see it as a form of domination. As I say, for me Souled-Spangel would be about two vampires who were in love with a woman who had died, and that would form the basis of their relationship, it would be a form of comfort to begin with. I don't think it would happen if Buffy were still in the world.

It's in Power Play, Spike says, "Guess I don't have to worry about that, 'cause Angel and me have never been intimate. Except that one...". I think he refers to them having kissed once when he is getting thrown in the sun in S8 too. In S9 when Faith asks if there is anyone who hasn't slept with Spike Angel doesn't say a word. :p They have certainly had something intimate at some point, definitely, I just don't see any reason to expand that and assume it could mean multiple occasions when what is said seems to be suggesting once (as the straight forward read of what is said). They just don't act like ex lovers to me, people that have had a very physical past, even casually so, they just seem to be rivals. But we don't have to read the relationship the same way of course. :)

I'm not saying that the incident between them was about domination, I'm saying that I could see them having had a more complicated history than a single mutually chosen sexual experience which wouldn't even have me needing to reconsider the way that they appear to interact to me. If a past very active sexual history was revealed between them then I would have to look again at the dynamic between them and adjust how I've interpreted their interactions. So I'm not saying that dominance is why/how they got together the time Spike is referring to, I'd actually not expect it to have been something along those lines to be honest.

TimeTravellingBunny
21-01-18, 02:21 PM
Really? You really are a lost cause then. :lol:

I think gender is more fluid then people realise and that what someone presents to the world on the outside isn't necessarily the whole picture.

Is it? If that were true, then why do transgender people go to such lengths to be allowed to be the gender they feel they belong to, even though that brings them so much difficulties, danger and even harm? And if people had no fixed sexual preferences, then why do gay people go to such lengths to be able to be recognized for what they are and allowed to have same sex relationships, when that also brings them much danger, difficulty and potential harm?

And what is true for transgender people or for gay people must logically also be true for cis people and straight people.

Sure, some people are gender fluid, and some people are pansexual, but to claim that everyone is either simply makes no sense and contradicts obvious evidence and common sense.

Silver1
21-01-18, 02:27 PM
I didn't say everyone was. I said more people then some think are.

As to the rest gender is complicated hon, and I'm not going down that rabbit hole. I just don't have the time.

MikeB
12-04-18, 08:46 PM
All caught up




* I’ve always reasoned that “one time thing” between Spike/Angel was a threesome with Drusilla and that it happened after that flashback in “Destiny” (A 5.08) after Spike ‘walks in on’ Angel/Drusilla. Meaning immediately after that scene.




GoSpuffy

* Vampires are different. Spike/Drusilla and James and Elizabeth (AtS) are the only two loving vampire couples we see in the Buffyverse. Even relationships like Angel/Darla and Spike/Harmony seem very rare.


* Drusilla’s having sex with a Chaos Demon, etc. seems even rarer given she’s the ONLY example we have of vampires having sex with non-humanoid beings.


* Angel sired Drusilla specifically because he wanted to have sex with Dru.


* Angel has sex with Dru in the flashback of “Destiny” (A 5.08) because he was upset Spike seemed to be more focused on Dru and loves Dru more than Spike focused on Angel and loves Angel. Upon meeting Spike, Angel seemed to want to be ‘bros’ with Spike and simply have Darla and Dru as ‘their women’.


* Spike regarded Angel as his “Yoda”. It doesn’t seem Drusilla taught Spike much about being a vampire.


* It’s near canon that Angel/Drusilla didn’t happen after 1898 C.E.


* Spike from before “School Hard” (B 2.03) considers himself better than Angel. Angel wants Spike to be his ‘bro’ again, but he more doesn’t want Spike interfering with Buffy/Angel.


* The most interesting thing about Spike and Angel is they fell in love with the same two women—Drusilla Keeble and Buffy Anne Summers—but for different reasons. And those two women are the only reason Spike and Angel aren’t closer.


* Spike from BtVS S2 on doesn’t seem to care much about male companionship. He connects with Drusilla, Buffy, Joyce, Willow, Dawn, Faith, Fred, Illyria, Spider (if canon), and Beck (if canon). Angel is the only significant male friend we know he had.



vampmogs


I'll always remember Whedon's quote that Angel and Spike would have had sex because they were "all kinds of deviant." Joss actually thought he was being open-minded and progressive at the time when he stated that - not realising he just equated homosexuality with deviancy/evil. Spike and Angel aren’t homosexual.

Deviant: “Departing from usual or accepted standards, especially in social or sexual behaviour.” https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/deviant

Spike/Angel sex in 1880 C.E. certainly would be considered “deviant”. It would be criminal in the United Kingdom until 1967 C.E. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_Offences_Act_1967

Joss Whedon was using correct word usage.


* Spike said “poof” in a similar way as when a someone calls a man a “pus)y” not in the way as in calling someone a “fag)ot”. Spike’s calling someone a “Nancy” is like someone calling someone “feminine” or “girly” or “womanish”. Of course, Spike makes fun of Angel’s ‘hair gel’ yet Spike clearly spends more time and effort on Spike’s hair and appearance than Angel does on Angel’s hair and appearance.


* Spike liked Willow. His being fine with Willow/Tara cannot automatically extrapolate to his being fine with all homosexuality.

____________________________________

* In the United States gay marriage had over 50% support only since 2014 C.E. http://news.gallup.com/poll/210566/support-gay-marriage-edges-new-high.aspx http://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/

Joss Whedon had to fight for Willow/Tara to have an on-screen kiss.


The way I see it, our biological sexual preferences make up, say, 70%-80% of who we choose to sleep with (I'm spitballing here), and then the other 20%-30% is made up of what society demands of us and the bigotry and discrimination still prevalent in everyday life. Who we have sex with depends on whom we are attracted to (biology and culture) and who is willing to have sex with us (outside of rape). “Society” and “social structure” are the other factors but those largely regard marriage (outside of prostitution).

Liam’s good looks couldn’t even get the family servant to have sex with him. Angelus seems to resort to rape.

William Pratt’s being “dashing” and “pretty” is one of the reasons Drusilla sired him. But William initially assumed she was a pickpocket and wasn’t attracted to her until he realized she was ethereal and otherworldly.

Buffy would have dusted both Angel and Spike if she didn’t find them physically attractive. Spike would perhaps have died in “Pangs” (B 4.08) if Willow didn’t appreciate in “The Initiative” (B 4.07) that Spike was physically attracted to her.


* Angel post-being sired cared much more about “social class” and “propriety” than Liam of Galway did. Spike relatively quickly ended his “not living by societies rules”. Spike in BtVS S2 acts like a King. He belittles a Sunnydale education. He considers himself socially superior to almost everyone in the Buffyverse. In “Just Rewards” (A 5.02), he tells Angel that Angel finally has money.


* Some women experiment in college with other women because women generally have harder times achieving orgasm than men do and other women know their bodies better than most college-aged men do. That is even if the man cares about the woman having an orgasm.

I’ve never heard of a straight man deciding to “experiment” with other men. Most men don’t even want to be involved in boy-girl-boy threesomes.



TimeTravellingBunny

* It’s possible Liam of Galway had had sex with men. William simply decided to accept Angelus’s proposal of friendship.



Priceless

* Given history, unless William Pratt was completely asexual, it’s impossible that he could be a virgin. People like him easily had sex with their female servants—who often were hired largely based on their looks—people of lower class and/or wealth, etc. Besides William’s good looks, woman would have sex with him also in the hopes of getting pregnant and thus getting a payout from him. Payouts oftentimes were around hundreds of pounds sterling to sometimes thousands of pounds sterling to simply make ‘a problem go away’. Such money was more money than a servant would make in decades, their entire lives, etc. If gotten enough money, the impregnated could live off interest.


* Cecily Underwood was the person William wanted to marry. His mother Anne called Drusilla his “new little trollop”.


* Spike/Angel happened once and it is directly opposed to canon that it would ever happen again if there were any suitable females left in the world. Post-“The Girl in Question” (A 5.20), Angel has sex with Nina and then later the Season 8 stuff. Spike starts quasi dating Illyria and the IDW stuff happened (if canon).

____________________________________

* As I responded to vampmogs , sex depends on a willing partner outside of rape. There’s around zero sign Spike was sexually attracted to Xin Rong (the Chinese Slayer he killed). There’s very little sign he was sexually attracted to Nikki Wood. Even the Bronze Scene in “School Hard” (B 2.03) is after Spike overhears that Buffy is dating Angel. Sex with a Slayer—outside of rape—likely wasn’t something Spike thought possible before meeting Buffy.

____________________________________

* Spike/Angel sex being a one-time thing is canon.

____________________________________

* Spike in BtVS S7 was forcing a Platonic relationship with Buffy. That night in “Touched” (B 7.20), Buffy/Spike achieved a Platonic Love. Essentially, it means they achieved a “spiritual connection”. In BtVS S6 they had Eros. Spike after having those interactions with Buffy considers he had neither Eros nor Platonic Love with Drusilla.



Stoney

* Drusilla dumped Spike because he was into Buffy and thinking about Buffy. In addition, Dru tells Spike “he tastes like ashes”—a possible reference to “Chosen” (B 7.22) but also Spike’s losing much of his passion for Dru.

Spike was with Drusilla for 100 years without Angel (1898 C.E. to 1998 C.E.).

Spike simply wants his girlfriend to be completely in love with him (Drusilla Keeble, Harmony Kendall, Maria Harley aka Spider (if canon), Beck (if canon), even Morgan (if canon)). He rejects Buffy not only because of her still having feelings for Angel, but Buffy doesn’t completely love him: she loves Spike, not William the Bloody.

Ensouled Spike lost much of his passion until after “Get It Done” (B 7.15).

____________________________________

* Drusilla put William’s hand on her heart and it’s heavily implied he knows it’s not beating. William was shocked by Drusilla’s ‘demon face’ but she makes clear what she’s offering and he gladly accepts.



Silver1

* The flashbacks of “Destiny” (A 5.08) point to Angelus wanting to be “bros” with William, not necessarily Angelus wanting William and he to be lovers.

- If anything, the “hand in sunlight” thing I always considered Angelus testing William’s ‘power’.

Stoney
12-04-18, 09:14 PM
* Drusilla put William’s hand on her heart and it’s heavily implied he knows it’s not beating. William was shocked by Drusilla’s ‘demon face’ but she makes clear what she’s offering and he gladly accepts.

Dru putting his hand to her chest would have been a very risqué contact that I would expect him to be aroused and uncomfortable about in equal measure. I doubt he had the time or presence of mind to consider if her heart is beating. I'll never agree that William knew what he was getting in to. Dru asks him if he wants to be understood essentially, and then she changes and he is surprised and she bites him. William didn't have a clue what he would become, nothing was explained to him and we know that he doesn't like to think about such unpleasant dark things. And Spike would hardly have described himself once souled as a victim, which he does in Damage, if he thought it was something that he had asked for.

I think Dru deliberately manipulated someone at their weakest by seeming to offer all they wanted, to be seen and accepted, and then she murdered him and turned him into what she wanted. I'm going to call the agreeing to disagree straight away on this one. Dru and Spike are a fascinating couple, but it is no love story for William, she murdered him. They are, by some of the fandom, one of the most over-romanticised couples in the verse imo.

Priceless
12-04-18, 09:46 PM
* Given history, unless William Pratt was completely asexual, it’s impossible that he could be a virgin. People like him easily had sex with their female servants—who often were hired largely based on their looks—people of lower class and/or wealth, etc. Besides William’s good looks, woman would have sex with him also in the hopes of getting pregnant and thus getting a payout from him. Payouts oftentimes were around hundreds of pounds sterling to sometimes thousands of pounds sterling to simply make ‘a problem go away’. Such money was more money than a servant would make in decades, their entire lives, etc. If gotten enough money, the impregnated could live off interest.


I agree that men like William Pratt often had sex with their servants, and with sex workers. But I think the show wants up to believe that William was a virgin before he was sired. Everything points to that for me, the relationship he has with his mother, the way he puts Cecily on a pedestal and the innocence he has around Dru and what she's offering him. I also think there is an innocence about him once he's been turned, that perhaps a sexually active man, a 'man of the world' wouldn't have. But we don't know for sure so it's upto viewers to make their own minds up.

bespangled
13-04-18, 01:12 AM
Nope! Nothing to see here alright. ;)

https://78.media.tumblr.com/229f355c02d1f9de995aa5734f82b65b/tumblr_p2sf78lpzh1qb4op4o9_400.gif https://78.media.tumblr.com/d32b6fea1b3292f6d8029af3ec4f5ae9/tumblr_p2sf78lpzh1qb4op4o2_400.gif

https://78.media.tumblr.com/fc1263a9bd2ad70a835032e18f69f2bb/tumblr_p2sf78lpzh1qb4op4o3_400.gifhttps://78.media.tumblr.com/ae8f1b0f6076656f94bfcd50ae16cf87/tumblr_p2sf78lpzh1qb4op4o6_400.gif

https://78.media.tumblr.com/e6780ac8d71788d3abf2531616607974/tumblr_p2sf78lpzh1qb4op4o4_400.gifhttps://78.media.tumblr.com/3db5dc5c4108a80ddd4f0a125cde3592/tumblr_p2sf78lpzh1qb4op4o1_400.gif

https://78.media.tumblr.com/e4ddcb514220def1cb26c7cde0612df3/tumblr_p2sf78lpzh1qb4op4o5_400.gifhttps://78.media.tumblr.com/e561185a6f74ef9970cd97afc73e6d12/tumblr_p2sf78lpzh1qb4op4o7_400.gif

https://78.media.tumblr.com/00065197d98dc1f7d9aeca3a10c8309e/tumblr_p2sf78lpzh1qb4op4o10_400.gifhttps://78.media.tumblr.com/c0421966d24347ceac04e40be21221c6/tumblr_p2sf78lpzh1qb4op4o8_400.gif

I don't think this is about being bros. The scenes in the episode go from this scene to an argument, then to Spike walking into the door. He and Angel exchange a significant look. Corporeal Spike jumps up and with a grin immediately starts running his hands over Angel's chest. He finally leaves with Harmony, Angel looking at them as they run off, cutting right to a scene with Angelus and Spike in the coach and Angelus feeling rejected because Spike goes after Dru instead of staying with him.

The morality codes when this was created were far more restrictive than they are now - this was as much as the network would allow in terms of showing a long term sexual relationship between the male lead and another main character.It is definitely queer baiting as I understand the term, but even today we have no action hero males involved in a long term sexual relationships with a man. The scenes chosen, and the way this is structured, leave me little doubt that this is meant to portray the tension between two former lovers meeting again.


Here's the problem: I don't think that "morality" can change people's underlying sexual preferences. Vampires changing their sexual preferences in terms of who they're attracted to also makes very little sense to me. (If anything, they seem to have the same desires, like Jesse still wanting Cordelia.) If "morality" were the only thing standing in the way of Spike and Angel wanting to have sex with each other/wanting to have sex with men, that means that they're always attracted to each other on some level, just wouldn't act on it for some reason.

I completely disagree, and I have a vastly different view of sexuality. My view comes from studying history - and human sexuality. In cultures such as ancient Greece, love and sex between men was the cherished ideal. A woman could not be a real lover because she couln't actually share a man's life. You married a woman to have children, but you chose a man to love. Lesbos and Sapho indication the acceptance of lesbians. A man's lover had to be another man - ideally someone who fought next to him on the battlefield. A key part of the why the army operated this way was the knowledge that a man would fight harder to save his lover.

Ganymede was a Trojan prince known for his beauty. According to a myth, Zeus turned into an eagle and abducted Ganymede, bringing him to Mount Olympus. To compensate his father, Zeus offered him the best horses possible, and told him that his son would now be immortal and serve as a cupbearer for the gods, as well as a lover for him. Ganymede was the religious avatar for confirming the beauty of love between men.

I can't believe that the biology of sexuality has devolved in such a short time. The only reasonable conclusion is that most humans float somewhere on a spectrum of sexuality - basically bisexual - and the mores and laws of the time have a huge impact on who they choose to partner with. This is about the difference between sexualtiy, and choice of partner - heteronormativity. Throughout human history it has never been fixed - it has always been fluid. IMO, the fact that we deon't see a person in a same sex relationship doesn't mean that they are purely heterosexual - it just means that this has been the choice that we have seen up until now. So I enter into any view of a character assuming bisexuality as the norm, and not seeing the choice of partner as a limiting factor.

It's kind of ironic that the same techniques used to keep prudish advertisers with a fear of boycotts content are now being seen as proof that there was no sexual relationship.


Is it? If that were true, then why do transgender people go to such lengths to be allowed to be the gender they feel they belong to, even though that brings them so much difficulties, danger and even harm? And if people had no fixed sexual preferences, then why do gay people go to such lengths to be able to be recognized for what they are and allowed to have same sex relationships, when that also brings them much danger, difficulty and potential harm?

Because they have to fight for their rights in this culture at this time! In other cultures and in other times there would have been no problem for an individual with the same gender identity or sexuality. Our culture has been so heteronormative for so long that gender identity sexuality are indeed seen as fixed and not fluid, I have one child who is bisexual and gender queer and another who is transitioning. My gender queer child has questioned her gender since she was able to walk and speak. Were I a different mother I would have in some way forced her to hide those feelings for the sake of her eventual social life. This is the advice I got from everyone. Instead I just pointed out that in this life (there were some past life memories involved) she was a little girl. I let her know early on that I was very open to her transitioning. She chose not to. My adopted daughter is now my son.

She's in her 30's now, an we're both amazed at how much society has opened up to the entire idea of gender being fluid in any way. My own gender fluidity was beaten out of me by society, and I am still far more masculine than the norms of my time. Since my husband is more nurturing in a lot of ways, it all works out - or so the kids say.

@MikeB


* Angel sired Drusilla specifically because he wanted to have sex with Dru.

Angel sired Dru because he wanted her pain to continue on - and he taught her to desire pain with and without sex. Had he just wanted to have sex with Dru he didn't need to kill everyone she loved and drive her insane. That was just the fun part.



* Angel has sex with Dru in the flashback of “Destiny” (A 5.08) because he was upset Spike seemed to be more focused on Dru and loves Dru more than Spike focused on Angel and loves Angel. Upon meeting Spike, Angel seemed to want to be ‘bros’ with Spike and simply have Darla and Dru as ‘their women’.

This is a scene shown within days of meeting Angel. Spike's love of Dru never wavered, but that doesn't mean once he and Angelus had sex he wasn't up for a lot more. :D


* Spike said “poof” in a similar way as when a someone calls a man a “pus)y” not in the way as in calling someone a “fag)ot”. Spike’s calling someone a “Nancy” is like someone calling someone “feminine” or “girly” or “womanish”. Of course, Spike makes fun of Angel’s ‘hair gel’ yet Spike clearly spends more time and effort on Spike’s hair and appearance than Angel does on Angel’s hair and appearance.

Completely agree - in fact the first time Spike calls Angel poofter is in the Yorkshire mine when Angel tells him that 'A real kill, a good kill takes artistry. Without that we're just animals." That comment is about personal style, not sexuality.


* Spike/Angel happened once and it is directly opposed to canon that it would ever happen again if there were any suitable females left in the world.

Huh? The word at the end of that sentence is one... Had Joss wanted to indicated it was just one time I think he would have had Spike say "one time". In addition to the fact that Joss says Spike and Angelus had plenty of sex when they were together before Angelus was cursed - so this applies to souled Spike and Angel. That's canon - from the mouth of the big guy himself. The other is your interpretation.