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View Full Version : When did you prefer Spike/Dru over Buffy/Spike?



MikeB
22-08-17, 08:31 PM
From the moment Drusilla arrives in "School Hard" (B 2.03), I wanted Buffy/Spike to eventually happen and considered it likely Buffy/Spike was eventually going to happen.

I've always preferred Spike/Dru over any other romantic relationship in the Buffyverse, but I was excited for Buffy/Spike happening and considered it could happen as soon as BtVS S3.

Stoney
22-08-17, 11:49 PM
Ha, no option that you never preferred Spike/Dru, or just never cared about Spike/Dru then? I sense some bias in the poll. ;)

MikeB
23-08-17, 12:39 PM
Ha, no option that you never preferred Spike/Dru, or just never cared about Spike/Dru then? I sense some bias in the poll. ;) I couldn't list every single possible option, but the pre-"Surprise" (B 2.13) option is listed.

I considered "Surprise" (B 2.13) a decent starting point because it's when we see there's likely strong connections between Drusilla and Buffy--they seem to have the same birthday and they are wearing the same dress in Buffy's later dream (a dream it seems Dru gives Buffy); it's also when we see Spike and/or Drusilla ended the Order of Taraka order to kill Buffy.

I would have liked to include "School Hard" (B 2.03), but there is a 20-option limit and "School Hard" shows Spike's flirting with Buffy but also would have killed her if Joyce hadn't intervened.

If you never cared about Spike/Dru, the pre-"Surprise" (B 2.13) option is best: No poll options are perfect.

a thing of evil
23-08-17, 02:44 PM
I prefer Spike with Dru, because with Dru, Spike's an adult. Yeah, he's still Spike and he's still a vampire and whatnot but he's a grownup. With Buffy's he's...I don't even know what he is, he's in this weird limbo where he's simultaneously less and more mature than Scoobies. It's like he just completely regresses, to match Buffy, up until, say, season 9, season 10 (his own comics are an exception obviously) where he becomes an adult again because, at that point, Buffy's an adult. You know, when you think about it, Spike really doesn't make much sense as a character.

HardlyThere
23-08-17, 09:23 PM
Ha, no option that you never preferred Spike/Dru, or just never cared about Spike/Dru then? I sense some bias in the poll. ;)

This. Never cared for it. We never got enough of it for me to care for it. Dru is sick from School Hard to WML, then the next time we see them she's crawling all over Angelus, then she's cheating on him with a Chaos demon. She comes back in Crush seemingly because she had nowhere else to go.

Stoney
24-08-17, 12:32 AM
I prefer Spike with Dru, because with Dru, Spike's an adult. Yeah, he's still Spike and he's still a vampire and whatnot but he's a grownup. With Buffy's he's...I don't even know what he is, he's in this weird limbo where he's simultaneously less and more mature than Scoobies. It's like he just completely regresses, to match Buffy, up until, say, season 9, season 10 (his own comics are an exception obviously) where he becomes an adult again because, at that point, Buffy's an adult. You know, when you think about it, Spike really doesn't make much sense as a character.

Spike is a very progressive character and I find his arc through the tv series (and onwards) very coherent and compelling. Of course there is a good degree of characters behaving as intelligent or as foolish as the plot needs, but Spike is a character that does display seemingly contradictory traits often. He is capable of great insight but also great self-delusion. He can be fierce and violent or sensitive and soft. He is focused and determined one minute and then impatient and impulsive the next. But I think it all stays in character, even being pretty predictable in fact, because it all depends on how much he cares about things, he is so led by his emotional investment. Unsouled he is inherently selfish and less mature for it, but Spike develops continuously as a character and looks forward and progresses, looking to change and reach for what he wants.

Spike is static when he is with Dru and that is too limiting for an ongoing character. Once they decided they were going to keep him he was either going to be restricted to a small recurring bit part, like Harmony, or he needed to develop. Some degree of 'weakening', loss of confidence and uncertainty just makes sense with the storyline he's given and it works well against what we learn of him that he responds as he does. The back story they gave him is also great in hindsight to give more depth to what has already been seen since he arrived, and then works really well in characterisation for where they took him. I think he is by a mile the most interesting character in the verse. :)

I'm interested, who do you think has the best arc across the series and what it is about it/them that you like?

betta
24-08-17, 01:31 AM
I don't prefer Drusilla over anyone, I think she was extremely annoying with that crazy talk of hers. The scene where she kills Kendra I like the best because we can see a little sanity in her. If she wasn't crazy, I certainly would prefer her over Darla, because of Juliet Landau.

a thing of evil
25-08-17, 11:11 PM
I'm interested, who do you think has the best arc across the series and what it is about it/them that you like?

This is a difficult question. I don't think most characters ( like Buffy, Giles, Spike etc ) even have an arc. Season seven tries really hard to tie characters' threads but aside from maybe Anya, I think it's mostly just a failure. ( Yay Buffy, you're not the special, chosen one anymore, here, have this cool axe thing, specially made for the chosen one. Like, seriously? ) I guess, I like Willow's arc because it's so dumb simple. I wanna be a badass Wicca and...yeah, that's it, that's her entire arc. There's some bullshit here and there, but, maybe because it's so straightforward, it mostly works. Xander has a potentially interesting arc, masculinity issues etc, but it kinda goes nowhere. Meh.


Spike is a very progressive character

I don't think he is. I think that, on a fundamental level, Spike doesn't really change. He idealizes a woman, molds his identity and starts pursuing an ideal himself. With Buffy he's a champion. With Dru he's an anti-champion, slayer of slayers. With, for example, Dylan, he'd try to become a great poet. There's no character development, no arc. Spike just keeps repeating his pattern.

Priceless
21-12-17, 09:19 PM
I've never been a fan of Dru. She was too artificial and mannered for my liking. A little bit of Dru goes a long way :(

TimeTravellingBunny
22-12-17, 02:51 AM
I voted for "pre-Surprise", as this comes the closest to my feelings, as the first half of season 2 is the only time I actually genuinely shipped Spike/Dru. My younger self thought they were oh so romantic with their Sid and Nancy thing when they first appeared on the show, but I lost most of the enthusiasm when I saw her behavior around Angelus.

I can't say that I "preferred" Spuffy as it didn't occur to me at any point while watching seasons 2 and 3 that Buffy/Spike is a ship or that it could happen (I didn't follow the online fandom - I would have been very spoiled otherwise, as I was watching the show a few years later). But, during the break between watching seasons 3 and 4 (I watched the first 3 on a TV channel that only aired those, and didn't even know at first there were more seasons), I searched for Buffy stuff online and found out a few spoilers, such as that there are going to be characters named Dawn, Tara etc. and that Buffy/Spike is going to be a thing. My immediate thought was "hey, you know what, that actually makes perfect sense. I mean, it's kind of crazy and unexpected, what with them being enemies and all, and I have no idea how it's going to happen, but at the same time, I can totally see them together." I shipped Buffy/Angel while watching the first 3 seasons of Buffy, but even then I always felt that they didn't seem to perfectly fit with each other. Buffy and Spike always had better chemistry (not that Bangel didn't have good chemistry, but Spuffy always had more).

Funny, around the same time I also learned that Angel/Cordy was going to be a thing, but with them I actually had the "Huh? What? Those two?" reaction.

Stoney
22-12-17, 11:36 AM
Spike is a very progressive characterI don't think he is. I think that, on a fundamental level, Spike doesn't really change. He idealizes a woman, molds his identity and starts pursuing an ideal himself. With Buffy he's a champion. With Dru he's an anti-champion, slayer of slayers. With, for example, Dylan, he'd try to become a great poet. There's no character development, no arc. Spike just keeps repeating his pattern.

Some of his progression is a gradual development from bad guy to hero, from darkness towards light. That's a clear and blatant path through the series. But the Spike we see at the end of S7 still has connections to the person that we met in S2, of course he does. Development doesn't have to mean completely abandoning a personality trait. He isn't a new character with an entirely new personality. There is character coherency and so yes, he is still influenced in great part by the same character motivations which originated in his human self. That is all part of what makes his story so coherent for me. But consistency in some aspects doesn't negate any sense of progression or remove the ways he is meaningfully developing.

Through the series we explore the characters as we see their responses to events, situations and the others around them. This naturally brings specific parts of their personalities more to the fore than others, at varying points and with different people. We watch Spike adapt to things that happen to him but also make decisions to move forwards towards changes he actively chooses too. And we do also eventually see shifts in the way he responds to his motivation for love as well. Yes it influences a lot of what he does and plays a major part in the choices he makes. It's something that is specifically addressed in how it features and influences his story path though and then how it shifts somewhat (and how it doesn't) as he adapts to being souled and starts to question who he is, who he can be now in a different way. His choice to sacrifice himself for the greater good in Chosen is very much the culmination of his arc in the tv show, that path out of the darkness away from where he started with Dru, but it is also then the beginning of the new path he is choosing. To give up the potential of what appears to be there in Buffy's declaration, what he has previously strived for on a personal level, is a distinct step. It continues in his choice to not return immediately when recorporealised, exploring who he can be away from his love interest. Then, when he does return in S9, he soon looks to change his dynamic, no longer wanting to be on the edges, still wanting to move out of the dark. Then his mini leads to him choosing to belong more completely and we see him integrate further with the wider group. It is all ongoing.

Rather than big, sudden dramatic character shifts that change him bluntly, the points of coherency in the character through it all is what makes his journey and the progression he has feel more natural, organic development. It is the way that the characters develop and progress steadily through the series that I love the most about BtVS and part of what makes them relatable. Mileage varies as they say, we don't have to agree, but I think Spike has the strongest character development in the verse and how it works coherent to his personality in the directions he takes, yet how he keeps moving forwards, is what I love about him the most.

GoSpuffy
24-12-17, 12:48 AM
I loved everything about Spike from the moment he walked on screen so that means loving Dru because they were a team. I loved the chemistry between Spike and Buffy from the first moment but I never thought they'd end up together. So happy to be wrong!

MikeB
07-02-18, 02:22 PM
a thing of evil

* Spike in BtVS S4 wants the Scoobies to protect him from the Initiative. Spike in BtVS S5 owns that he wants to be with Buffy and that he is in love with her, but he'd been trying to kill her for years. BtVS S6 is mostly Buffy and Spike 'playing games' with each other to try to not get emotionally hurt by the other. BtVS S7 has Buffy in a mother role to Spike. BtVS S8 has Spike's being the leader of the Scoobies. BtVS S9 deals with Spike's regard for the limitations of a relationship with Buffy.

Spike becomes more mature from BtVS S2 through Season 9 (apart from somehow considering Uncured Angel is a Glory or Illyria-level threat).

____________________________________

* It's beyond silly to try to argue Buffy and Spike don't have arcs.


* Spike has muses, but those muses result in his changes. William Pratt may have idealized his mother Anne, but he didn't idealize Cecily Underwood, Drusilla Keeble, and Buffy Anne Summers.

The character development of Spike happens because of his muses. His mother clearly mollycoddled him and he seems very anti-violence (albeit those weren't what his thoughts were). Drusilla tells him true wealth and power doesn't come from his pocketbook but from his body (mind, 'spirit', strength). Drusilla turns him into a legendary dark warrior who kills Slayers, becomes the rival to Dracula, etc. Buffy turns him into a hero. It's not as if Spike will someday revert to simply being a dandy poet.



HardlyThere

* You don't like Spike/Dru because of its relative lack of "screen time"? Dru's purpose in AtS s2 is to get the Fanged Four back together but her main goal is to get Spike back. Spike still loves Dru in BtVS S7. If canon, he still does in IDW's Spike miniseries.



Stoney


Spike is static when he is with Dru Yean, the main problem with Spike/Dru is "production reasons". The writers couldn't have Spike/Dru together forever unless they both became not kill-worthy. Spike couldn't be a regular and quasi-Scooby if he remained with Drusilla and continued to try to kill Buffy.

My preference for Spike/Dru is because Buffy is mortal and doesn't love "William the Bloody" (human and vampire versions). Buffy is in love with Spike. Drusilla is in love with all of William Pratt, William the Bloody, and Spike.

I maintain that if Spike had met 'sane Drusilla' in Season 9 that Buffy/Spike would be over unless Buffy was willing to 'share' Spike.

____________________________________

* Spike decides to die in "Chosen" (B7.22) because he wants to go to Heaven. Spike shoos Buffy away because of her interactions with Angel. Spike in AtS S5 doesn't go back to Buffy because Spike learns of the Shanshu Prophecy and is concerned Buffy may prefer human Angel to vampire Spike.


* In ways, it didn't make sense that Spike didn't take Morgan up on her offer. She's the new "best of his world" and he'd become something greater through her. Spike with Morgan, Illyria, Beck, and Spider and Co. has such a great potential power base that it's difficult to consider any of that canon given we never see them again with Spike.



TimeTravellingBunny

* Drusilla in BtVS S2 and after may have ultimately preferred to be with both Spike and Angel, but she clearly preferred Spike. And her interactions with Angel were mostly to get Spike focused on her instead of on Buffy.

Drusilla doesn't kiss Angel in BtVS S2 or any time after.

It's not logical to diminish Spike/Dru because of flirtations between Angel and Drusilla in BtVS S2 but then not diminish Buffy/Spike even though Buffy in "As You Were" (B 6.15) would have been back with Riley if he were available and even though Buffy kisses Angel in "End of Days" (B 7.21) and then in "Chosen" (B 7.22) gives Angel hope for a Buffy/Angel endgame. And Buffy (at least until post-BtVS 8.39) would prefer to be with both Spike and Angel.

Priceless
07-02-18, 02:31 PM
I maintain that if Spike had met 'sane Drusilla' in Season 9 that Buffy/Spike would be over unless Buffy was willing to 'share' Spike.


There is no way that Spike would ever go back to Dru, sane or not. The problem wouldn't be her mental health, it would that she is still a soulless vampire and he has struggled and fought to become a better man. He has a soul and is doing good and I don't believe he would give that up for Dru

flow
07-02-18, 05:29 PM
I did not vote, because I actually never preferred Dru/Spike. I did not watch the Show in chronological order. I started with season five, which means, the first time Dru and Spike were on Screen together, I already knew, that he was in love with Buffy.

After I finished watching season7, I started watchcing season2. I absolutely adore and love Dru as a character and Juliet landau as an actress and I enjoyed Dru and Spike together on Screen. But....I don`t doubt, that he loved her. I don`t doubt, that she loved him. And I do´`t even know, if he loved her "more". i always find it difficult, to measure love. But I think, that she did not love him the way, he wnted to be loved. Maybe you can`t judge vapires`s lovlifes from a human moral standard. They have no moral compass and Dru might not be able, to understand (or to care), that flirting or cheating are morally wrong.

But Spike is hurt. You can see it in his eyes (yay to JM for great performance!), everytime Dru flirts in front of him with Angelus. That is something Dru should have been able to recognize and to care for.

flow

MikeB
25-09-18, 11:19 AM
All caught up.

All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.




Priceless


* Even not including the IDW stuff, BtVS S7 and the Dark Horse stuff concludes Spike still loves Drusilla.

Buffy was with soulless Spike. Spike since “Chosen” (B 7.22) has twice had sex with Harmony Kendall. If the IDW stuff is canon, his post-Buffy girlfriend is partly evil and the rest of Spider and Co. are partly evil. Spike in Dark Horse is attracted to Morgan.

Drusilla was fighting bad guys in IDW’s Spike and she’s relatively not evil as Sane Drusilla.

Spike doesn’t like the idea of Drusilla’s wantonly killing to feed.


* Spike in Season 9 left Buffy again. Even if one wants to consider post-Seaosn 9 canon, Buffy/Spike are not together at the end of Season 12 and Buffy still has some feelings for Angel.


* Anya fought evil. Drusilla hasn’t been apocalyptically evil since BtVS S2. Buffy and Spike know that Drusilla post-“Crush” (B 5.14) has perhaps killed thousands of people simply for food and probably more for fun.

Spike in IDW’s Spike literally gave Dru his soul and then had Willow take her to Mosaic. He clearly wants to be Sane and not fully evil.



flow

* Drusilla allowed Angel’s flirting in BtVS S2 and she knew that hurt Spike. But given your profile icon and your banner, you’re a Buffy/Spike ‘shipper.

Spike in “End of Days” (B 7.21) tells Buffy that he’ll stop by to check up on Caleb. Buffy’s interactions with Angel in “End of Days” (B 7.21) and “Chosen” (B 7.22) are done either knowing or forgetting that Spike would witness and/or overhear those interactions.


* Buffy got with Riley instead of Spike and that’s the “bloody revelation” Spike refers to in “Wrecked” (B 6.10). Then Buffy in “As You Were” (B 6.15) by the end has Spike perhaps assuming she’d be off “snogging with Solider Boy.”


* Buffy doesn’t dust Angel after BtVS 8.39 and Buffy didn’t try to invite Spike into the Xander-Dawn apartment.


* Things in Season 9 aren’t much better between Buffy/Spike and that leads to Spike’s leaving Buffy again, having sex with Harmony after propositioning and getting turned down by Fatih and the Fairweather sisters, and returning to save Dawn.

Priceless
25-09-18, 05:26 PM
* Even not including the IDW stuff, BtVS S7 and the Dark Horse stuff concludes Spike still loves Drusilla.

In S10 Spike says that he didn't know what love was before he got a soul. He doesn't consider his relationship with Dru to be real love. (Buffy disagrees with him and says he did love before the soul, though she doesn't mention Dru)

flow
25-09-18, 09:09 PM
MikeB:
But given your profile icon and your banner, you’re a Buffy/Spike ‘shipper.

I hope that doesn`t come as a complete shock to you :lol:


Spike in “End of Days” (B 7.21) tells Buffy that he’ll stop by to check up on Caleb. Buffy’s interactions with Angel in “End of Days” (B 7.21) and “Chosen” (B 7.22) are done either knowing or forgetting that Spike would witness and/or overhear those interactions.


She went to that little temple in the cemetery (that she never noticed before although she has been patrolling those cemeteries every night for seven years...). He went to the vineyard. There is no reason, Buffy would know, he overhears her conversation with Angel. She thinks he is somewhere else.

flow

Rebcake
25-09-18, 10:40 PM
I love Spike/Drusilla, but when they are done, they are done, IMO. So up to and through Lovers Walk, I ship them, but after she dumps him for the fungus demon, I'm out.

I recently came across a Spike/Dru Shipper Manifesto from 2004 that's a lot of fun: https://ship-manifesto.dreamwidth.org/6606.html

vampmogs
25-09-18, 10:54 PM
She went to that little temple in the cemetery (that she never noticed before although she has been patrolling those cemeteries every night for seven years...). He went to the vineyard. There is no reason, Buffy would know, he overhears her conversation with Angel. She thinks he is somewhere else.

flow

Exactly. And not only that, but when Spike first tells her down in the basement that he knows Angel was back Buffy assumes that Spike must have smelled him (“let me guess, you can smell him?”) and is surprised when Spike tells her he actually saw them instead. If Buffy knew Spike would be watching her then this makes no sense.

But as you say, Spike clearly tells Buffy that he’s going to “swing by the vineyard” and make sure Caleb stayed put. Buffy didn’t go to the graveyard. Buffy went to the cemetery. Presumably, the only reason Spike was even at the cemetery was because once he realised Caleb wasn’t at the graveyard he then went to the cemetery to check on Buffy.

Double Dutchess
25-09-18, 11:04 PM
I love Spike/Drusilla, but when they are done, they are done, IMO. So up to and through Lovers Walk, I ship them, but after she dumps him for the fungus demon, I'm out. I recently came across a Spike/Dru Shipper Manifesto from 2004 that's a lot of fun: https://ship-manifesto.dreamwidth.org/6606.html

That's a great essay Rebcake. It goes without saying that I share the author's love for that scene in Crush! (points at icon)

I love Spike and Drusilla too, but wouldn't call myself a shipper. I generally just enjoy romantic pairings in a TV show without actively shipping them, Spuffy (and to a much lesser extent, Spangel) being the only exception. Other than that, I just take relationships between characters as they come. (No pun intended!!)

So to answer the poll question, I preferred Spike/Dru over Buffy/Spike while Spike and Drusilla were still together; after that I preferred Buffy/Spike. Basically there wasn't any overlap between the two, in my view.

DeepBlueJoy
26-09-18, 01:20 PM
I loved Spike and Dru in School Hard... until Buffy and Spike began to fight. :heart: :wub: From there on I would have to say my Spuffy fantasy was off and running! Dru is still my favorite non-starring character and I wish she'd had more episodes.

(I consider Tara a main star character). She should have been in the credits if Captain Cardboard was. She matters.

_________

No, you can't have all alternatives, but you can create fair polls. This was an invalid "push poll" that forces false answers. It is like the question 'when did you stop beating yout wife?' There is no correct option unless you have abused her.

bespangled
26-09-18, 08:49 PM
Amber Benson refused a season contract. She didn't want to give up her freedom to be in the credits. Instead she used her off time to write, produce and direct an independent movie "Chances" which starred her and JM. You can see it on you tube.

ghoststar
27-09-18, 03:31 AM
I’m always baffled by why people fixate on Amber Benson’s guest billing. I don’t pretend to know all the ins and outs of the SAG’s agreements with writers in various formats (although I do[I] know just enough to realize that that would be a difficult feat), but billing seems unpredictable from my layperson’s perspective, probably because it’s less fixed than things like minimum pay or maximum hours. Even the [I]order of billing has caused major fallings-out in Hollywood.

Whatever other BTS nightmares were going on, the show’s credits never fell outside the industry’s norms. Granting credit to Charisma Carpenter before David Boreanaz looks strangest in retrospect, but I’m guessing that Joss was less sure about whether or not DB and SMG would have the chemistry to justify making Angel a regular. I’m not quite sure why Michelle Trachtenberg got a more prestigious spot in the later seasons’ title sequences than James Marsters did; could just be a different focus by their agents. There were probably a few more minor oddities, but nothing exceptional.

Benson’s exclusion wasn’t even strange by the show’s standards: James Marsters and Juliet Landau didn’t get main-cast status in season 2, Eliza Dushku didn’t get it in season 3, Iyari Limon and Tom Lenk didn’t get it in season 7, and Robia LaMorte and Kristine Sutherland never got it. For whatever reason, none of these cases generates as much outrage as Benson’s.

vampmogs
27-09-18, 03:41 AM
Benson’s exclusion wasn’t even strange by the show’s standards: James Marsters and Juliet Landau didn’t get main-cast status in season 2, Eliza Dushku didn’t get it in season 3, Iyari Limon and Tom Lenk didn’t get it in season 7, and Robia LaMorte and Kristine Sutherland never got it. For whatever reason, none of these cases generates as much outrage as Benson’s.

Faith, Spike and Dru were just one-season guest stars, though. Amber Benson had been part of the Scooby Gang for at least 2 years (3 if you count the end of Season 4). She stands out because she's the only member of the main gang who wasn't featured in the credits when all the other characters (Oz, Angel, Riley, Anya, Cordelia, Spike, Dawn) were. As bespangled says, Amber actually chose to stay out of the credits but if she hadn't then it would have been weird.

bespangled
28-09-18, 01:57 AM
She said that she didn't want the role to become her whole life when she was interviewed during the 20th anniversary celebration. I remember she shrugged, laughed and saidBuffy was not her whole life like it was for those on contract. Apparently she was asked if she was willing to make the commitment and she said no. If you are under contract you have to be available when they want you for as long as they want you. If you guest star the contract is for one episode. I love AB - she turned to writing and producing small films because she was tired of waiting in cattle calls just to hear how great she would look if she lost weight. She said the kind of success that makes you have to change yourself that way just wasn't worth it to her.

My understanding is that the first slot is the highest. The next highest is the last slot - particularly if they have other verbiage like [I]also starring [/I.]. ASH and later AH had second billing. Then you sort of move inward from both sides. Juliet Landau had higher billing than James Marsters in season 2 - as guests. The same rules go for guest stars.

ghoststar
28-09-18, 03:13 AM
Last is more prestigious than the middle if it has “and X as Y”or “with X,” or “and starring” (or a close equivalent to one of those phrases) when the other credits don’t name the character. It’s a compromise that Hollywood worked out... somehow. (In a title sequence that only shows one name at a time, they could easily use the “and X as Y” format for everyone, but that didn’t become the convention, for reasons I don’t know.) At any rate, BtVS did use the last-actor-gets-words format in its later seasons. AFAIK, having the last credit doesn’t signify high status unless the producers are throwing in words besides the actor’s name.