Season Three Spoilers (without Tags!) [Archive]

Ehlwyen

12-06-07, 02:22 AM

The more I think about it, the more excited I am. The show has been very insular. They really do need to expand on who the Winchester's know.

The first season, Sam and Dean were referring to all kinds of random hunters, then by Salvation, two of the named ones were offed. Then in the beginning of Season 2, Ellen and Ash who they had never met or heard of were their only contacts. wtf! :confused: At least they brought Bobby back into their calling circle by 2.14. There are lots more hunters out there, and Bobby and Ellen don't need to be the only links we hear or see.

In addition, I think it is an interesting idea to bring in more characters the age of the Winchesters. I'm a strong believer that you connect best to people in your own age bracket. Jo was too young and Ellen and Bobby are too old. Whether they are love interests or just casual acquaintances, I hope that these characters bring out something new in Sam and Dean. I think that Sam and Dean have done all the revealing they can do to each other for a while. They have really become a single unit in thinking, action, and motive.

I think adding these characters as permanent regulars from the start is an unwise move. I know I resisted Ellen, Jo, and Ash, because their introduction seemed too contrived and that we were supposed to accept they were part of the show. We have met so many other characters that would have made interesting regulars because they had a unique natural introduction by way of storyline, where it doesn't seem forced.

But that being said, I don't really have a problem with the show getting regulars. The show is called Supernatural, not Winchesters. The Winchesters don't have to be the greatest hunters of all time with the greatest saga of all time. It was always the personal nature of their story that drew me too them. They weren't doing it for the thrills or because it was their duty, it was because of something that happened in their lives and somewhere in them, they knew they needed to do this in their lives or they wouldn't be happy. And they accomplished what they needed to, it's not far fetched that they start to reassess where they are in life. Now Sam has to save Dean obviously before any of that can happen, but please please please don't let saving Dean from the bargain happen in the S3 finale. Way too contrived and expected.

Personally, I can't stand Gordon and hope he stays locked up. Hendrickson, yawn, maybe we can jazz up his motives a little more than just some FBI agent way too ****y and into his job rather than seeing the world and bigger picture.

galathea

12-06-07, 02:54 AM

The more I think about it, the more excited I am. The show has been very insular. They really do need to expand on who the Winchester's know. Well, actually that's one of the things I like about the show. :lol: I like that we have a very small cast with only 2 regulars since it allows for a lot deeper character exploration than ensemble casts. And we have enough ensemble casts on tv already, really don't need another one. I don't have a beef with recurring characters because I think that they complement the SN universe and make it richer, anything though that tears away the focal point of the show, meaning Sam&Dean, doesn't sit very well with me.

Now, I am not blind and there's a limit to earth- and heartshattering interactions between the Winchester's and they need to give them other's to interact with as well and I look forward to that, but I am not up for a show about a bunch of hunters, doing their business. The show was always very personal with Sam's and Dean's agendas and I think they need to keep that up and with the upcoming plotlines about Dean's deal, Sam's unkonwn psychological status and the unleashed demon army, they have enough personal material to work with.

In addition, I think it is an interesting idea to bring in more characters the age of the Winchesters. I'm a strong believer that you connect best to people in your own age bracket. ROFL it's a wonder that I connected to so many people on this board then, given that I am out of the average age bracket :p Characters in the in different age groups will bring out different traits in the boys, but I firmly believe that you can connect deeply with people in ANY age bracket, no matter how far apart they are! ;)

I think adding these characters as permanent regulars from the start is an unwise move. I know I resisted Ellen, Jo, and Ash, because their introduction seemed too contrived and that we were supposed to accept they were part of the show. We have met so many other characters that would have made interesting regulars because they had a unique natural introduction by way of storyline, where it doesn't seem forced. I completely agree with this. SN was often very capable to create loveable sidecharacters with relative ease and without pushing them onto the viewer. Like Bobby, Andy or Ava. Funnily enough, as soon as they actually created characters that were meant to become recurring/regulars aka the Roadhouse gang, they handled it very clumsily. That's why I am not so fond of this rumour, because past experience showed us that they can be a bit annoying in that regard.

Let these characters be introduced, show up every now and then, let the viewers get accustomed and attached to them and then start pulling them in more often. Worked like a charm with Bobby.

Personally, I can't stand Gordon and hope he stays locked up. Hendrickson, yawn, maybe we can jazz up his motives a little more than just some FBI agent way too ****y and into his job rather than seeing the world and bigger picture. I liked Gordon, I think he was a nice addition and showed the dark side of the hunters. Henrickson can become a very intriguing character if played right. I would love to see him turn around to the boys PoV eventually and become an ally. Now that's a plotline I would love!

Ehlwyen

12-06-07, 03:35 AM

Well, actually that's one of the things I like about the show. :lol: I like that we have a very small cast with only 2 regulars since it allows for a lot deeper character exploration than ensemble casts. And we have enough ensemble casts on tv already, really don't need another one. I don't have a beef with recurring characters because I think that they complement the SN universe and make it richer, anything though that tears away the focal point of the show, meaning Sam&Dean, doesn't sit very well with me.

I love the show for only having two characters!!! :heart: And you know that! In a perfect world, SN would go 20 years and JA and JP would be the only main characters and be in almost every scene. I know you realize this is not possible. But I am just moving with the flow and accepting it here. :D It will be easier come September for me.

I was actually just pointing out how close and inward looking our view of the Winchesters has become. Sometimes you can't see the forest for all the trees. We are so inside what Sam and Dean are doing and feeling that stepping back and seeing them from another's point of view will be good for us. Hopefully, refreshing and revealing.

Now, I am not blind and there's a limit to earth- and heartshattering interactions between the Winchester's and they need to give them other's to interact with as well and I look forward to that, but I am not up for a show about a bunch of hunters, doing their business. The show was always very personal with Sam's and Dean's agendas and I think they need to keep that up and with the upcoming plotlines about Dean's deal, Sam's unkonwn psychological status and the unleashed demon army, they have enough personal material to work with.

I have no doubt there is plenty of personal material to work with. But being able to compare and contrast their personal struggle with other people's journeys creates interesting parallels that will mirror back and illuminate the Winchesters in new ways or with more levels.

I also am a fan of the common or the underdog. The Winchesters have been elevated to godlike status and I think it would be interesting to show them more human and not that unlike the rest of the hunters out there. Obviously, none of them have a psychic child as a relative, which is what will always make the Winchester unique. But most of the hunters have tragic stories that drove them to this path, the Winchester's are not the only ones who lost someone.

ROFL it's a wonder that I connected to so many people on this board then, given that I am out of the average age bracket :p Characters in the in different age groups will bring out different traits in the boys, but I firmly believe that you can connect deeply with people in ANY age bracket, no matter how far apart they are! ;)

Actually all of us here have connected out of love of a fandom and shared interest. That's why I believe in people being closer in age getting along better. They usually are exposed to the same fandoms and interests and events and trends. For example, Star Wars is barely a blip on my life, while my husband who is 2 years older, remembers a lot of that fondly.

It's the same reason why I pull for Sam and Dean so strongly as brothers before blood and other people. They are united because of that shared experience growing up. They had the same quirky things happen to them they can remember as shaping their lives. The spaghetti-o's and milk. My god, my sister loved that stuff and to this day we have serious talks about her gross obsession and people look at us because we're crazy. Or Thundercats being on tv in both Dean's memories. I'll rant blue about Thundercats vs. Voltron, my sister 2 years younger will vaguely remember it, while my youngest sister who is 5 years younger than me will look at me as if I'm crazy.

Dean has always been defined by his interests. So I would find it more important for him than Sam to connect with someone his same age level.

I also believe your interests don't just define who you are, but you choose which interests you like based on who you are. It's a common way of thinking. So I stand by age level usually defines interests and therefore a common ground. Especially in the real world where the pool of people you can come in contact with is so much smaller than on the internet.

I completely agree with this. SN was often very capable to create loveable sidecharacters with relative ease and without pushing them onto the viewer. Like Bobby, Andy or Ava. Funnily enough, as soon as they actually created characters that were meant to become recurring/regulars aka the Roadhouse gang, they handled it very clumsily. That's why I am not so fond of this rumour, because past experience showed us that they can be a bit annoying in that regard.

Let these characters be introduced, show up every now and then, let the viewers get accustomed and attached to them and then start pulling them in more often. Worked like a charm with Bobby.

I liked Gordon, I think he was a nice addition and showed the dark side of the hunters. Henrickson can become a very intriguing character if played right. I would love to see him turn around to the boys PoV eventually and become an ally. Now that's a plotline I would love!

I know, *sigh* it is only with the Roadhouse gang that they did so poorly at attaching the viewer's hearts. *shakes head*

I truly hope the characters are naturally introduced and then appear only every couple of episodes rather than having a storyline involving them forced upon us every week. Anyway, Sam and Dean need the backup if they are fighting an "army" of demons.

Henrickson was just a butt to that female lawyer. I found that extremely unprofessional and have very little respect for someone with type of arrogance and attitude. For me, he's merely a bug who is waiting to be enlightened by the Winchesters or squashed because he comes into contact with the evil he's trying to prevent them from fighting. So he will just be a pest until he either learns the truth or we find out that he has some ulterior motive.

galathea

12-06-07, 04:14 AM

I was actually just pointing out how close and inward looking our view of the Winchesters has become. Sometimes you can't see the forest for all the trees. We are so inside what Sam and Dean are doing and feeling that stepping back and seeing them from another's point of view will be good for us. Hopefully, refreshing and revealing. I totally second that. One of the reasons I loved 'Roadkill' was that it gave a complete outsider PoV on the boys, even if it was only a ghost :lol: or why I love Henrickson, because he gives a good outsider PoV as well. Heck, most of the average people we get to meet with Sam and Dean deliver some kind of perspective on the boys. So actually that is already happening a lot on the show! I just meant that I don't need a duo of female hunters as regulars to get a new perspective on the brothers Winchester.

I have no doubt there is plenty of personal material to work with. But being able to compare and contrast their personal struggle with other people's journeys creates interesting parallels that will mirror back and illuminate the Winchesters in new ways or with more levels. Well, just as with the outsider PoV, paralleling and mirroring their personal struggles also occurs in nearly every episode already. Only that they are usually reflected in their MotW plotlines, but sometimes also in the people around them, think of Andy&Anson or the Father&Son duo in Bugs, just to mention two instances. I know that you are probably more aiming for other hunter families, but I think they did the job of illuminating the Winchesters through secondary plotlines quite nicely in the past 2 seasons.

I also am a fan of the common or the underdog. The Winchesters have been elevated to godlike status and I think it would be interesting to show them more human and not that unlike the rest of the hunters out there. Obviously, none of them have a psychic child as a relative, which is what will always make the Winchester unique. But most of the hunters have tragic stories that drove them to this path, the Winchester's are not the only ones who lost someone. ROFL I never felt they were elevated to a godlike status! :lol: Where does that come from?! Because they never stay dead?! :D :roll: :roll:

I don't know, obviously all kinds of people were driven into the world of the supernatural and it's natural to assume that it is probably either through personal tragedy or contact with hunters. For example I can easily see people that Sam and Dean touched throughout their journey going down that path out of conviction and without personal tragedies in the background.

I do think their circumstances make the Winchesters pretty unique, mainly Sam's and Mary's involvement in the whole demon saga and their complete isolation from anything resembling a community. I am still wary of the fact that John never actually introduced them to the hunter's network and I still think it has to have a reason, other than Bill Harvelle's death. Nevertheless I think Sam and Dean are portrayed pretty human, LOL .. they screw up, they make mistakes, they fight, they care for each other, they get hurt, they win, they loose.

Actually all of us here have connected out of love of a fandom and shared interest. That's why I believe in people being closer in age getting along better. They usually are exposed to the same fandoms and interests and events and trends. For example, Star Wars is barely a blip on my life, while my husband who is 2 years older, remembers a lot of that fondly.

I also believe your interests don't just define who you are, but you choose which interests you like based on who you are. It's a common way of thinking. So I stand by age level usually defines interests and therefore a common ground. Especially in the real world where the pool of people you can come in contact with is so much smaller than on the internet. While it is surely common to connect over shared interests, it's not the only way. You also connect through personality and common experiences that are not defined by age induced interests, but by personal events in your life. And even with interest defined friendships age doesn't really matter. I know Star Wars Fan in every generation, doesn't really matter if they were around the first time it came to the movies or only discovered it on DVD now. :D So it may sometimes be easier to find friends with the same interests in your own age group, but it's by far not exclusive.

Ehlwyen

12-06-07, 05:32 AM

I totally second that. One of the reasons I loved 'Roadkill' was that it gave a complete outsider PoV on the boys, even if it was only a ghost :lol: or why I love Henrickson, because he gives a good outsider PoV as well. Heck, most of the average people we get to meet with Sam and Dean deliver some kind of perspective on the boys. So actually that is already happening a lot on the show! I just meant that I don't need a duo of female hunters as regulars to get a new perspective on the brothers Winchester.

Well, just as with the outsider PoV, paralleling and mirroring their personal struggles also occurs in nearly every episode already. Only that they are usually reflected in their MotW plotlines, but sometimes also in the people around them, think of Andy&Anson or the Father&Son duo in Bugs, just to mention two instances. I know that you are probably more aiming for other hunter families, but I think they did the job of illuminating the Winchesters through secondary plotlines quite nicely in the past 2 seasons.

Roadkill did not work for me. Mostly because the Winchesters were reduced to explaining how the SN world worked.

Now Henrickson in Nightshifter was awesome. That whole episode worked beautifully with Henrickson's view of Sam and Dean being miscreants. While on the other side, we got to see a sad picture of Ronald evoking possible images of John's entry into the supernatural realm. It would have been such a strong move of the show to have kept Ronald alive. We could have later checked in on him and his becoming a hunter.

Specifically, two female hunters? I agree, not necessary. However, I think that parallels can only go so deep with one-off characters. I may love the endless possibilities of guessing the one-off character's motivations and desires to how they reached this point in life and how they will deal with it after the Winchester's leave. However, they are so crystallized in exemplifying a singular scenario that there is some loss of realness and personal attachment.

Most importantly, the show has such a strong tendency to these mytharc episodes that it can't introduce one-off's every week. Having regular characters who don't need to be introduced will allow the paralleling to happen without taking much time away from an episode.

ROFL I never felt they were elevated to a godlike status! :lol: Where does that come from?! Because they never stay dead?! :D :roll: :roll:

You know very well I'm speaking of the LJ fandom where each Winchester has been so retold and redefined into caricatures of themselves. Tall tales was a perfect title for an episode as they are just like the tall tales of Paul Bunyan where their feats are so grossly exaggerated. Great for laugh, but I think that a lot of people believe a little too much.

Dean's only weakness is Sam and his family (okay, flying, but that doesn't come up much). It would be nice to see something else rattle his cage like a normal person.

I don't know, obviously all kinds of people were driven into the world of the supernatural and it's natural to assume that it is probably either through personal tragedy or contact with hunters. For example I can easily see people that Sam and Dean touched throughout their journey going down that path out of conviction and without personal tragedies in the background.

I do think their circumstances make the Winchesters pretty unique, mainly Sam's and Mary's involvement in the whole demon saga and their complete isolation from anything resembling a community. I am still wary of the fact that John never actually introduced them to the hunter's network and I still think it has to have a reason, other than Bill Harvelle's death.

And that reason is Gordon. Actually, people who think like him. John was afraid of that type of irrational fear and distrust from hunters who had already been hurt in their lives. John knew Sam was special or that he himself was different from other hunters because of the nursery fire. He couldn't trust many people to see things through his pov.

Nevertheless I think Sam and Dean are portrayed pretty human, LOL .. they screw up, they make mistakes, they fight, they care for each other, they get hurt, they win, they loose.

Eh...really that's only in comparison to demons and each other. Not other humans or hunters. Two superhuman characters fighting supernatural creatures puts them all on the same playing field.

As far as other adversaries or hunters, Dean easily put Gordon down or outfoxed Henrickson. Heck, Sam took out two swat team members. :eek: Barehanded. Double eek! :eek: :eek:

Jo only got the slip on Dean because he was in a jovial non serious mood. He wasn't trying to fight. While Bobby and Ellen have both been parental figures that they haven't been trying to stand up to.

While it is surely common to connect over shared interests, it's not the only way. You also connect through personality and common experiences that are not defined by age induced interests, but by personal events in your life. And even with interest defined friendships age doesn't really matter. I know Star Wars Fan in every generation, doesn't really matter if they were around the first time it came to the movies or only discovered it on DVD now. :D So it may sometimes be easier to find friends with the same interests in your own age group, but it's by far not exclusive.

If you at one point believed I was being exclusive then you really don't know me at all. :D I was merely pointing out a trend that I had found which resonated personally with me.

galathea

12-06-07, 12:05 PM

And that reason is Gordon. Actually, people who think like him. John was afraid of that type of irrational fear and distrust from hunters who had already been hurt in their lives. John knew Sam was special or that he himself was different from other hunters because of the nursery fire. He couldn't trust many people to see things through his pov. That's a fair enough reason but that would only work so far. Ellen said that they were family once. If the Roadhouse and John were as close as she suggests and he was there so often that he was considered family, he had to trust and/or believe in the goodness of the hunter's network for quite a while. Especially in the beginning of John's crusade I don't see how he could possibly have enough insight into those structures to make a decision like that. And John was cautious but not paranoid enough to never trust the boys into other peoples care or keeping Sam&Dean a secret, since they were well known at the Roadhouse. I just don't know, I'd expect a more substantial reason than just distrust.

Eh...really that's only in comparison to demons and each other. Not other humans or hunters. Two superhuman characters fighting supernatural creatures puts them all on the same playing field.

As far as other adversaries or hunters, Dean easily put Gordon down or outfoxed Henrickson. Heck, Sam took out two swat team members. :eek: Barehanded. Double eek! :eek: :eek:

Jo only got the slip on Dean because he was in a jovial non serious mood. He wasn't trying to fight. While Bobby and Ellen have both been parental figures that they haven't been trying to stand up to.Uhm, Gordon easily got the drop on Dean in 'Hunted' and would have sniper killed Sam if Dean hadn't been there to prevent it or blown him up if Ava hadn't warned him. The Benders took out Sam without a problem in the first place and Dean as well. The good folks from Burkitsville had no problem capturing Dean either. ;) It's all very situational and I honestly think that given their training it is reasonable that they get the upper hand with other human adversaries eventually.

Dean&Sam outfoxed Henrickson in 'Nightshifter', but in FSB it was Deacon who got them out and the lawyer who prevented them from getting caught again and in TUS Dean got arrested and was nearly shot. No way to weasel out hadn't Detective Ballard come around to their PoV. And Dean did try to stand up to Ellen in Simon Said and she didn't let him bullshit her and he complied, not happy, but he did it.

The whole point of their education was being able to fly under the radar, to equip them with any means to evade capturing and stay alive against supernatural creatures, creatures that have superpowers. So I don't find it astonishing that they manage to do that most of the time against normal humans, but the show definitely shows that they are vulnerable and make mistakes as well.

If you at one point believed I was being exclusive then you really don't know me at all. :D I was merely pointing out a trend that I had found which resonated personally with me. Hehe nah, I was just teasing you. It's just that I think common interests are a matter of mind and not of age. I have friends whose age range goes from 22-60 and I bonded with these people over different interests. Music or movies are not age specific, fandoms are neither. It may be more probable that you meet people who know the same specifics like you in a certain age, but I can connect with a movie fan no matter if he saw the exact same movies as I did or not. ;)

Foolish Me

13-06-07, 05:06 AM

I think the addition of two new hunters will be very good for Supernatural. The core of this show, to me, has alway been about the personal struggles of the two brothers, not a world wide epic battle. Opening the gates at the end of season two released, what looked to me, like hundreds of demons. It would be too much to expect the Winchester brothers to track down all these demons themselves, and would cheapen the theme of two men, doing their own small part to change their own lives, and others lives along the way, if they are expected to be the saviors of the earth in a "war" between good and evil. If they don't try to shoehorn these new characters in, and give them personalities more dynamic than cardboard, I think two female hunters could be a good contrast and comedic foil for the Winchesters.

Plus, in No Exit, Dean did say that women could do the job. Let's see a little more women hunting skills than sitting around as bait.

Ehlwyen

13-06-07, 05:07 AM

Someone quoted this at another board.
DSinLA at TWOP has more info about the new two female demon hunters. She doesn't know in how much episodes they'll play.

Here the description:

Bela: 20-30. Beautiful and sexy, she's a woman without a conscience. A mercenary in the supernatural world. She is ****y, confident, mercurial and very funny. Actress must possess physical prowess, plus submit all ethnicities. Series regular.

Ruby: 20- lat 20's. Beautiful and sexy, mysterious and quiet. She's an enigmatic demon hunter. She is a most brutal, ruthless hunter, in fact she's better hunter than Sam and Dean. Series regular.

Okay. I think these are really cool descriptions. But paper doesn't translate to magic. What it really comes down to is that good charismatic actresses are found.

Jo is really nice, but therein was her inherent shortcoming. I think she would have worked better if she had some type of edge to her. The show really needs some dangerous women.

Foolish Me

13-06-07, 05:22 AM

DSinLA at TWOP has more info about the new two female demon hunters. She doesn't know in how much episodes they'll play.

Here the description:

Bela: 20-30. Beautiful and sexy, she's a woman without a conscience. A mercenary in the supernatural world. She is ****y, confident, mercurial and very funny. Actress must possess physical prowess, plus submit all ethnicities. Series regular.

Ruby: 20- lat 20's. Beautiful and sexy, mysterious and quiet. She's an enigmatic demon hunter. She is a most brutal, ruthless hunter, in fact she's better hunter than Sam and Dean. Series regular.

That's what I'm talking about! Fantastic descriptions! That's what I want my obituary to read like when I die. I don't see both these characters as being love interests for the brothers, just people who will challenge them or help them as long as their lives converge. Definitely different descriptions than the character of Jo; good actress, but I would not describe Alonna Tal as having physical prowess. At least they're trying something different this season.

Ehlwyen

13-06-07, 06:01 AM

EndersWrath

13-06-07, 08:24 AM

I really never understood the hate on Jo. Alona Tal is an amazing actress and pulled off the part very well. Was it just because she was a potential love interest for one of the boys? Perish the thought. I mean as long as it doesn't take away from the overall theme of the show and the boys travelling around killing baddies, I honestly do not see the point in some fans getting their panies in a bunch over something that we don't even know that much about. I have learned the hard way that that is not the way to do things through VM, because sometimes (though not all the time) you will be surprised and just look like a dumbass.

I mean yeah it is awesome that a show can thrive like it does with only two main characters, and I really am hoping that these two new girls are like MAIN characters, but I wouldn't mind if they were regulars, as in every other episode. As long as they don't take away from what this show is all about (in a nutshell: two boys on a quest) I am all for it.

In the real world these boys are gonna have love interests and for the writers to not even use that storyline whether we like it or not would cheat us don't you think? I mean lets make this supernatural thriller as real as we can! :lol:

Cori

13-06-07, 09:41 AM

Okay, I can't hold it in any longer. I think this is the coolest theory about one of the girls. I saw it last night and tried to sit quietly, but after seeing the descs I am really blown away about how emotional and paralleling and tragic it would be. Now if only SN has this same idea. :heart:

Do I spoiler theories in this thread?
I'm hearing people suggest that one of the hunters will be Steve Wandell's daughter. (The hunter that possessed!Sam killed in BUABS.) Since she was apparently in college last season from the letter that Sam read, this would most likely mean she be the younger one.

Wow. The tragicness of Sam and Dean having started this journey because their own mother was killed. Now to know that they in turn have brought someone else into this life by killing her father. *shudders*

On the plus side, maybe we'll finally find out about those underwater pajamas that dad sent her!!! :heart: :heart: LOL. Yep, this sounds like good stuff to me with all the guilt on Sam and Dean's side. They have always been on the sympathetic side being only involved because of their mom. It will be interesting for them to take another side where they are less the sympathetic and innocent wayward sons.

Personally, if they don't use this storyline, I think the show will have failed themselves by missing a very interesting continuity.

I'm really setting myself up for a fall in September, when the actresses that are hired aren't that engaging. :sadwalk: I can't win.

OMG Lyn! :eek: You are right, that would be absolutely awesome! :D Did fans bring up this theory or is there any spoiler out there that indicates that this might actually happen? *is all excited by this theory*

Anyway I agree, the tragic parallels would be just great. I can already see Sam being completely angsty when he finds out who this girl is and who her father was. And when Sam is hurting so is Dean. Wow I really hope that the writers use this storyline! :)

As for the spoilers about the two female hunters: I'm not contrary to this idea at all. As one of the few people who always said there should be more women on the show, who am I to turn down this new concept? ;) It does bug me a bit though that it says that they will be regulars, I think recurring characters would have been better. I just hope that they will cast actresses who have good chemistry with Jensen and Jared, not necessarily in a romantic way, but also in a friendship way. But anyway, I'm excited about seeing Sam and Dean interact with other hunters, be they male or female. :D

I really never understood the hate on Jo. Alona Tal is an amazing actress and pulled off the part very well. Was it just because she was a potential love interest for one of the boys? Perish the thought. I mean as long as it doesn't take away from the overall theme of the show and the boys travelling around killing baddies, I honestly do not see the point in some fans getting their panies in a bunch over something that we don't even know that much about.

What he said! :)

galathea

13-06-07, 11:09 AM

Okay, I can't hold it in any longer. I think this is the coolest theory about one of the girls. I saw it last night and tried to sit quietly, but after seeing the descs I am really blown away about how emotional and paralleling and tragic it would be. Now if only SN has this same idea. :heart:

Do I spoiler theories in this thread?
I'm hearing people suggest that one of the hunters will be Steve Wandell's daughter. (The hunter that possessed!Sam killed in BUABS.) Since she was apparently in college last season from the letter that Sam read, this would most likely mean she be the younger one.

Wow. The tragicness of Sam and Dean having started this journey because their own mother was killed. Now to know that they in turn have brought someone else into this life by killing her father. *shudders*

On the plus side, maybe we'll finally find out about those underwater pajamas that dad sent her!!! :heart: :heart: LOL. Yep, this sounds like good stuff to me with all the guilt on Sam and Dean's side. They have always been on the sympathetic side being only involved because of their mom. It will be interesting for them to take another side where they are less the sympathetic and innocent wayward sons.

Personally, if they don't use this storyline, I think the show will have failed themselves by missing a very interesting continuity.

Okay, now I think that would be a really awesome idea, plus fantastic story continuation over from S2. I would be all for that. The problem that bugs me most is that they are cast as regulars. Correct me if I am wrong, but that would mean that they are in the credits in every episode, like Jensen and Jared and that they are in nearly every episode. Now, how would they achieve that AND go on with their usual structure of the show?

Either the girls would have to travel with the boys, which, frankly I don't see at all or they have to split screentime between the boys and this new duo, which pisses me off. And why, why does one of them need to be a better hunter than Sam and Dean, why can't they just be equal?! Geesh, that annoys me beyond anything! I see no reason to undermine your main characters in order to push new characters up. :(

I just want to remind all of you VM fans how extremely pissed off you all were when they changed major aspects of the show in order to gain new audience. It didn't do the show any favours, they lost their loyal fanbase and it sped up VM's demise. Under no circumstances do I want to see this with SN. This whole set-up just sounds like a network decision, so I can't help it but I am extremely wary of this additions.

I am so completely annoyed with the call for the stereotypical kick-ass female characters that every time this comes up it automatically raises my resistance. What's wrong with a show that's mostly consisting of males? Has every show have to have a 08/15 formula: kick-ass leading males, kick-ass leading females, romantic interests, every ethnicity, religion, minority group positively integrated? I am just generally annoyed by meddling with good concepts, that doesn't mean though that I won't reserve my judgement for these characters until I saw how they play out on screen.

And another spoiler that came out today, one that makes me absolutely happy for a change:

Jim Beaver (who plays Bobby Singer) has just told me that he has been called back for epiodes 1,3 and 4 (don't know about episode 2) of the new season and that he starts shooting on July 16th.

Llywela

13-06-07, 11:36 AM

God, how much do I hate that there are spoilers already! I let myself be spoiled for the start of last season, but by mid-season was completely unspoiled and managed to remain so right up till the end.

I was weak and read this particular spoiler, and am annoyed with myself because I think I'll enjoy next season a lot more if I haven't spent all summer tying myself in knots wondering how it'll all pan out! I think it's important to have faith in the writers, because they haven't let us down yet - even Jo, who was so massively hated by fans before she'd even appeared on-screen, is a likeable character when viewed objectively.

So...we'll just have to see how things go, I suppose!

Cori

13-06-07, 12:17 PM

Okay, now I think that would be a really awesome idea, plus fantastic story continuation over from S2. I would be all for that. The problem that bugs me most is that they are cast as regulars. Correct me if I am wrong, but that would mean that they are in the credits in every episode, like Jensen and Jared and that they are in nearly every episode. Now, how would they achieve that AND go on with their usual structure of the show?

I agree, the fact that they will be regulars bugs me as well. I can't imagine having anyone else in the main credits besides Jensen and Jared. Plus as much as I'd like for Sam and Dean to interact with some new characters, I don't want to see these new characters in every episode. :( I want there to be enough space for episodes focused just on the brothers or focused on Sam alone or Dean alone. I guess we'll just have to have faith in Kripke & co. that they will find the right balance.

I just want to remind all of you VM fans how extremely pissed off you all were when they changed major aspects of the show in order to gain new audience. It didn't do the show any favours, they lost their loyal fanbase and it sped up VM's demise. Under no circumstances do I want to see this with SN. This whole set-up just sounds like a network decision, so I can't help it but I am extremely wary of this additions.

I get what you are saying here and yes in VM's case, things definitely did not work out. However, I think Kripke & co. have a much deeper understanding and love for their characters than RT ever did. Plus they understand the concepts of character development, character continuation and storyline continuation (something RT clearly lacks). So I'll trust them to ensure that Sam and Dean's characters won't suffer due to the new characters. I don't think change is necessarily a bad thing, it just depends how that change is brought about and that it doesn't upset the core construct of the show beyond recognition (as it did in VM's case). Anyway I'm trying to keep an open mind about these new characters and to trust the writers that they know what they are doing. ;)

And yeah the spoiler about Bobby makes me very happy as well! :)

galathea

13-06-07, 12:28 PM

I get what you are saying here and yes in VM's case, things definitely did not work out. However, I think Kripke & co. have a much deeper understanding and love for their characters than RT ever did. Plus they understand the concepts of character development, character continuation and storyline continuation (something RT clearly lacks). So I'll trust them to ensure that Sam and Dean's characters won't suffer due to the new characters. I don't think change is necessarily a bad thing, it just depends how that change is brought about and that it doesn't upset the core construct of the show beyond recognition (as it did in VM's case). Anyway I'm trying to keep an open mind about these new characters and to trust the writers that they know what they are doing. ;) Ohh, don't get me wrong! I totally agree, the character handling and understanding of these writers is amazing and I don't really expect that to change any time soon, given that the writers stay the same. I don't worry about them screwing up the character integrity. It's more that the addition of 2 regulars can clearly interfere with the basic set-up of the show, 2 boys with a personal agenda travelling around America, with a clear focus on these two characters, their relationship and their story.

I was more trying to compare it with how they suddenly tried to drop the huge seasonal mystery in VM, which was a core element of that show. I am all for bringing in recurring characters (especially if the storyline would be as amazing as Lyn's spoiler suggests), but not if it is suddenly the Sam&Dean and Bela&Ruby show.

Ehlwyen

14-06-07, 04:19 AM

Oooh, I love to see all the comments in here!! Too bad my waking hours aren't coinciding with everyone. :p

Unfortunately Cori, that is only someone's suggestion. It makes such simple perfect sense that I'm now afraid that isn't true and has been overlooked. *sigh*

Particularly considering the rumors going around now that the casting of two huntresses are only because of network pressure. Bad enough, but worse considering the other rumor that Kripke is still revolting against the inclusion of the girls. It's nearly impossible to change the network's "mind" (in quotes because there is definitely no real thinking to ever come from a network), so the best thing is to write in an interesting plotline (such as the one above) and find a way to kill them by season's end. :angelnot:

While I'm not opposed to new reoccurring characters, having regulars, and being required to appear in every episode adds a rigidity that this show never had. The show was always very easy to get into as a new viewer because there were only 2 characters to keep up with. Adding new main characters really complicates things and takes it away from new or casual viewers. (Why god why don't they let me run a network?)

I think it is hard to come up with a completely original character from just a couple lines. Pretty much every type of character is a stereotype. Kick ass girl, nerdy girl, what else do we have besides just an average girl? There are rumors that one of these girls will be evil or bad so maybe that adds a new dimension?

VM did not go wrong by adding more characters which is fairly innocuous as far as a change in a show's direction. VM felt compelled to outsmart itself each season and reached a point where things became overdone and almost ridiculous. VM also changed its style and became more soap then mystery. I believe it possible that SN can continue as itself even with the girls, but it will take a lot of effort, care, and ingenuity from the writers and producers. Heaven help them to be able to step back and see where the show has come from and where it needs to go without external forces pulling them in their own selfish directions.

Joe, the thing I disliked most about Jo was that she was so little, delicate, and gentle. She really did not appear like a hunter or a girl that sleeps with knives. She didn't look strong enough or have an athletic stance or movement. The fact that she was also well known in many people's minds as the meek Meg on VM also did not help her on screen conceptualization.

EDIT: Apparently sides are out at nowcasting.com if people are interested. That's just too much spoiling for me.

Wolfie Gilmore

14-06-07, 10:12 AM

I'm excited at the prospect of some female characters. When I'm caught up on season 2, I'll definitely be watching next season. Woo!

galathea

14-06-07, 10:22 AM

I'm excited at the prospect of some female characters. When I'm caught up on season 2, I'll definitely be watching next season. Woo!I'm sorry, Lou but we are not only talking about the addition of some female characters but about a network involvement into the creative process of the show that has the potential to completely change the direction of Supernatural. A direction the creator of the show actively fights and thinks it's a bad idea. That also means that this involvement may throw his plans for this season's character and plotline arcs. The possible repercussions of that for the show and its survival can be desastrous. Excuse me of not being thrilled about these prospects. :(

EndersWrath

14-06-07, 02:45 PM

Hmm...the CW did this to another show in it's third season... I think it's name was Veronica Mars...oh right it was, it was that show that did amazing until the CW stepped in and crushed everything good about it (ie Seasonal Mysteries, over-dramatized coupling). Though Rob Thomas is not free of blame, just that things didn't get bad until the CW tried to change some things, I mean it was their influence that made RT attempt the FBI format of the show. At least the UPN's inluence was a good one...

Kripke is a great show writer and has done some amazing things with the show, but RT also was up until CW stepped in. I just hope that SN doesn't start to come done with Season 3-itis.

Heather

14-06-07, 06:49 PM

I think MANY fans are jumping the shark here and already concluding that this will be an utter disaster. All the fans have such faith in Kripke and now, when this announcement is made (albeit, unofficially), everyone turns into angry, depressed messes? I don't get it.

Veronica Mars was a completely different situation compared to this. It wasn't the addition of new characters that screwed over the season in many fan's eyes, it was the CW's desire to dramatize and soap-up everything that made it run downhill. Which is sad, yes, but most (note: I said MOST) of the fans who went all "This sucks, I'm done watching, the writers and RT have no idea what they're doing" had little faith in the writers and RT to begin with. I'm not gonna get into that rant here but...the point still stands.

Almost all of those crazed fans everywhere on the web have so much faith in the writers and Kripke and...now what? That's all gone because the CW's interfered? Networks have interfered with NUMEROUS other TV shows and most of them have survived. It doesn't promise a crappy season. It doesn't promise anything.

Yes, this will change the "formula" of SN but nobody knows what's gonna happen. Nobody should be getting all pissed off and go all looney because of it. Not yet. The show's not dead. The show hasn't even started casting these two roles yet! So it's beyond me why people are just getting so worked up over this piece of news when NOBODY knows what will happen yet but the trustworthy and faith-enstilled writers of the show!

People need to seriously calm down. It's not the end of the world. The show's not gonna completely fall apart...well, nobody knows if it will. So, seriously people, all the dramatics are WAY over the top. Save them for midseason when it's actually appropriate to freak out if the show does happen to go downhill.

ANYWAY...I haven't posted in here yet about my thoughts on the matter, though I have talked to Chris about it. I'm not 100% happy with the decision...I'm kinda wishy-washy about it. Series regulars and new characters can open up new opportunities which is great. Because, in my honest opinion, the two boys alone are getting boring. There's only so much angst they can create with each other.

New characters can create new angst. New characters can create new storylines. New characters can create new mysteries. New characters can benefit this show a lot and most die-hard SN fans are overlooking that fact because they don't want two chicks appearing in every episode and "messing with the formula."

Now, I do see why some people are wary of these casting notices. I get it. SN is about Dean and Sam. SN has fantastic recurring characters who should be up'd to regular status instead of adding two completely new characters (IE: Ellen, Bobby). And I'm afraid that Ellen and Bobby won't be developed as much now. Which is sad, because I love both the characters and don't wanna see them suffer because of these two regulars.

Most people know I'm not a huge Supernatural fan. Most people know I've got major beef with the way the writers wrote some of the storylines and situations. But how the hell am I, out of everyone else, the optimistic one? How am I the person who's believing in these writers and in Kripke more than the die-head "SUPERNATURAL IS MY LIFE" fans on the internet?

Has hell seriously frozen over? :rolleyes:

galathea

14-06-07, 07:30 PM

Most people know I'm not a huge Supernatural fan. Most people know I've got major beef with the way the writers wrote some of the storylines and situations. But how the hell am I, out of everyone else, the optimistic one? How am I the person who's believing in these writers and in Kripke more than the die-head "SUPERNATURAL IS MY LIFE" fans on the internet? You kind of answered your own question! :) For us 'Supernatural Is My Life' fans changing the formula is a HUGE deal. For casual viewers and normal fans like you, it's just one show where you can wait and see what happens since it doesn't affect you nearly us much as us obsessive fans. I believe in Kripke and the writers, but even those fantastic people only have limited space for manouvering if they are forced to add storys and characters that were not part of the original build-up for this season.

Regulars means usually 12+ episodes, that seriously affects the time for Sam&Dean and the other recurring characters. That doesn't necessarily mean that they can't make it work nonetheless, but since Kripke and Co are not the one's who have the last word here, I can have as much faith in them as I want, that won't change the fact that they are pressured by network execs, who obviously don't give a damn if the creator say 'stop, that's not the direction we want to go'. Herein lies my problem and not in lack of faith in the writers who didn't let me down throughout 2 seasons yet.

Ehlwyen

14-06-07, 07:58 PM

:wave: Helloooo! Optimistic one here! You missed me! Or are you questioning my "Supernatural is Life" status? *squints and prepares to get pitchfork and torch* :lol:

My only doubt comes from the rumor that the show is unhappy and is trying to fight the network's decision. It's hard to believe in a character/plotline because of Kripke, if Kripke himself isn't satisfied. :sadwalk:

And as I said before...it all comes down to good casting. So I'm really hoping the girls won't be in the first couple of episodes if they are just starting to cast right now and filming starts in July.

And I had the same thought as Chris though a little different. It's easier for you to be excited because you have little to lose if the show mucks up and the show has plenty of opportunity to go up. For others, they already have the show they want and it can either stay the same or get worse. :p

I lay somewhere in between satisfied and hoping for a change for better though I couldn't love a show anymore than this one.

Heather

14-06-07, 11:16 PM

:wave: Helloooo! Optimistic one here! You missed me! Or are you questioning my "Supernatural is Life" status? *squints and prepares to get pitchfork and torch* :lol:

Well...Whoops on my part. :lol: My litle optimistic Lyn! :hug: :p

But my point wasn't that people shouldn't be wary of this. Everyone should be wary of a change in their favorite shows. I was just trying to comment on this great panic and the fact that some fans are taking "obsessive" to a whole new level. I've read multiple accounts of people losing sleep because of this casting news (yes, I went against my rule and returned to that LJ and other places... :lol: ).

I'm not sure how best to word my...confusion, for the lack of a better term, about why people are reacting the way they are. I think for those obsessive fans who love this show and love the writing and think it's one of the best shows on television, they really have no reason to be freaking out.

Good writers can handle things that are thrown at them. And if you're thinking that these writers can't work with the network's pressure to add two female regulars? How can you possibly say that you have faith in these fantastic writers? All it's doing is giving them a prompt to work with, basically.

The finale left things open so that we don't have to deal with the YED story, pretty much, so adding these girls last season would've been bad because it would mean working them into a huge mythology. But Season 3 has so many windows open. It...allows for so much more to be done and makes it EASIER to add new characters.

Now, Chris, you know I'm not fond of this spoiler. I told you that, we talked about this. I'm not excited about these new additions. But that doesn't mean I'm all against it. Like I said, it could make the show more diverse and interesting and creative. Or, fans could be right and the show will go down the toilet.

We don't know anything.

Nobody has a reason to freak out yet. Nobody knows how big of an impact this will have on Supernatural as we know it. Nobody should be stressing themselves out, losing sleep, making themselves sick, etc...etc... because of this news.

It's not a disaster yet and who knows if it will even be one.

THAT'S what I was talking about. Not about the actual show's storyline or about Dean or Sam or anything involving the show itself. My main...aggravated confusion (YAY for making up a new term!) concerns these die-hard "Supernatural is my Life" fans who are taking all of this WAY too far WAY too soon.

*Shrugs* That's all.

EDIT: I just reread Lyn's post and saw this...

My only doubt comes from the rumor that the show is unhappy and is trying to fight the network's decision. It's hard to believe in a character/plotline because of Kripke, if Kripke himself isn't satisfied.

Ok, how I see Kripke's unhappiness is like this: He knows it'll aggravate fans if it doesn't work and knows that this will make a change to the show that he's said in the past won't ever happen. But now the network is forcing him to do it and he's not liking the fact that he has to go back on his word.

I don't think it has anything to do with the creative process. I do, honest to God, believe that he knows exactly how to fit these girls into the show and how to create fantastic backstories.

But that just might be me.

galathea

15-06-07, 12:18 AM

I'm not sure how best to word my...confusion, for the lack of a better term, about why people are reacting the way they are. I think for those obsessive fans who love this show and love the writing and think it's one of the best shows on television, they really have no reason to be freaking out. ROFL I think Lyn formulated it best when she said that some of us (including me for example) do have exactly the show they want! Hey, there were some plots and episodes that I wasn't completely happy about, but all in all this show topped all my expectations so far and stayed where they promised us to be. Any change into a different direction is a step away from what I love and that includes every decision that adds new regulars to the show. Period! So naturally I am freaking.

I have nothing against female characters in general (though I could live without them in this show actually) or hunters (although I personally would find it more interesting to have support from other professions for the boys, e.g. doctors, lawyers or similar) .. it's only the term regular that's the problem here.

Good writers can handle things that are thrown at them. And if you're thinking that these writers can't work with the network's pressure to add two female regulars? How can you possibly say that you have faith in these fantastic writers? All it's doing is giving them a prompt to work with, basically. I have faith in these writers in terms that I believe that they will still keep Sam&Dean's character integrity. I have faith that the original storylines (Sam's status, Dean's deal, demon army) will be awesome. But fact is, that a great deal of screentime will be dedicated to the new additions if they are introduced as regulars, even Kripke & Co can't work around that.

That means, less flexibility for travelling around (if they don't let the girls travel with them which is my biggest horror-scenario), less screentime for Sam&Dean as a (singular) team, less screentime for Ellen&Bobby, less screentime for the people Sam and Dean meet. I don't care how awesome these characters are, I am not watching this show for them. Another period. These are all points that obsessive SN fans deeply care about. So they freak if if someone wants to take that away. I don't know what's so difficult to understand about that.

I know that you are cautious as well, Heather, but frankly this show doesn't mean anywhere near as much to you as it means to us obsessive fans. I was one of those who got no sleep this night over this. 'Supernatural Is My Life' isn't just a phrase and we are very careful with our lives. ;)

Heather

15-06-07, 12:48 AM

I know that you are cautious as well, Heather, but frankly this show doesn't mean anywhere near as much to you as it means to us obsessive fans. I was one of those who got no sleep this night over this. 'Supernatural Is My Life' isn't just a phrase and we are very careful with our lives. ;)

Ok, I'm not formulating my thoughts very well and I'm beating myself up because of that. Grrr. :lol: I know why you want to the show to stay the same but it to me it seems like nobody's open to new opportunities because nobody knows what will happen with these characters. It is possible for a "perfect show" to get even more perfect. Nobody's realizing this. Nobody's open to thinking this.

And, I'm gonna say this one bluntly because I can't think of a better way to gently phrase it but...If you're losing sleep, getting sick, pulling your hair out (of course the last one being metaphorically but I did read it online today which..scared me) over this, then something's not right. Because it's just that: a TV show.

One that is good. I'm not denying the fact that it is one of the higher quality TV shows on TV nowadays (I wouldn't be watching it if it wasn't). But "obsessive" has been taken to a whole new level by people on that Supernatural LJ and that scares me, honestly.

I'm just as afraid as everybody else is about the show changing. I loved Season 2, with the exceptions of a few episodes. I loved Season 1 with the exception of a little more episodes. I want to love Season 3 just as much and if things change, that might not be possible.

Now, yes, if the show got canceled, it would be sad for me and I'd be all "gah" for a little bit but I'd move on a lot faster than obsessive fans. It doesn't mean the world to me like Charmed did or like Heroes does now. I get that there are people who love the show (like you and Lyn and Nikki and Jo) but what I don't get is why there are other people who are so invested in it that it seems like their lives will end when this show drops even slightly in quality.

I'm sorry you're worked up about this Chris, I really am. I love happy, sunshine, funny, satisfied Chris. I don't love paranoid, sleepless Chris. That's bad. So I want things to calm down for you. This post isn't directed at you, it's directed at the crazed fans on that LJ (as was most of the other stuff I've said in the thread) who take this show way too seriously for their own good.

So I shall end this rant with a statement you said yourself just yesterday or the other day or...recently concerning these regulars: It's far too early to start passing judgement or freaking out.

Ok, I'm gonna go byebye from this thread now until more spoilers come forward. I'm getting all tensey and stuff. :lol: :roll:

galathea

15-06-07, 01:20 AM

Ok, I'm not formulating my thoughts very well and I'm beating myself up because of that. Grrr. :lol: I know why you want to the show to stay the same but it to me it seems like nobody's open to new opportunities because nobody knows what will happen with these characters. It is possible for a "perfect show" to get even more perfect. Nobody's realizing this. Nobody's open to thinking this. Read around more, there are a lot of people how are open to the idea. But obsessed fans are of course not thinking this could be an improvement, because any change that takes away major screentime from Sam&Dean just is impossible to be "more perfect" for obsessed SN (Winchester) fans.

And, I'm gonna say this one bluntly because I can't think of a better way to gently phrase it but...If you're losing sleep, getting sick, pulling your hair out (of course the last one being metaphorically but I did read it online today which..scared me) over this, then something's not right. Because it's just that: a TV show. Oh you can say that bluntly. No problem about that. I know that I am obsessed with this show to an unhealthy degree, to an degree that I would have never imagined possible, but that's just the way it is. For me it isn't just a tv show. I am happy that you are more mentally stable than us obsessed folks! :D :roll: :lol:

Now, yes, if the show got canceled, it would be sad for me and I'd be all "gah" for a little bit but I'd move on a lot faster than obsessive fans. It doesn't mean the world to me like Charmed did or like Heroes does now. I get that there are people who love the show (like you and Lyn and Nikki and Jo) but what I don't get is why there are other people who are so invested in it that it seems like their lives will end when this show drops even slightly in quality. I don't think that other people love the show for different reasons than Lyn, Jo or I do (Nikki is far from being obsessed with this show), you just know us and our reasoning better. I mean it's not like you have no shows that mean the world to you, you should be able to translate that to other shows and people who love those.

Like with every show that you are invested in people relate or respond to something in this show with genuine love, be it the boys, their relationship (most viewers are people who have one or more siblings), the complicated family background, the mythology, the reflection on the american suburban life, the music, the scares, there are many many reasons why people love the show. Maybe it fills an empty emotional space in the people's life, maybe people identify so much with it that they feel seriously affected by changes. For everybody who has ever been obsessed with a show, this shouldn't be so strange, even if some people go to extremes in their reaction.

I'm sorry you're worked up about this Chris, I really am. I love happy, sunshine, funny, satisfied Chris. I don't love paranoid, sleepless Chris. That's bad. So I want things to calm down for you. This post isn't directed at you, it's directed at the crazed fans on that LJ (as was most of the other stuff I've said in the thread) who take this show way too seriously for their own good. I prefer happy and sunshine Chris as well. :lol: You may not direct it towards me personally, but you have to understand that I take this show way too seriously for my own good as well! ;)

And if anyone is interested, this is from Samantha Ferris' (Ellen) blog and as far as I can tell it's directly from the actress about her appearance in S3 and about that new girls:

"Got word yesterday, and although it is not what we were hoping for, you may see Ellen again. Just not sure when. Sigh. Sometimes i really hate this business. Here is the scoop....the CW is a very young network (ie Smallville) and want their cast to be young and hot....it's their demo. And although i am not repulsive or scaring small children away at the sight of me, let's face it...i ain't Krustin Kruk. So they have decided to bring in two new YOUNG female characters for the boys to play with. An adversary to them and a kick ass demon hunter. Think they want to create some sexual tension on the show. They tried it with Jo, but she ended up being more of a sister figure. That puts Ellen on the backburner. I think she will be off crossing the globe hunting the demons that got out of the gate. No word yet on when i would appear, but I am not scheduled for the first 3-4 episodes. That i know. Love the show and will miss them greatly, but seeing as i don't have a deal with them, i am going to continue to work on other stuff...and if i an workng when SN wants to use me, i may not be available. So we'll just hav to wait and see....but i will keep you updated. I am waiting to hear back on a 13 episode show shooting in Vancouver this summer. No details as i don't want to jinx it. You'll know when i do.
Thanks for all the support. It means a lot."
Sam

Heather

15-06-07, 01:30 AM

I know exactly what it's like to be obsessed with a show (Charmed, Heroes, Smallville, Veronica Mars, Gilmore Girls, Alias...I'm one of the Princesses of Obsessive). So I know exactly what it's like to be fully invested in a TV show and want only the best for it. But I just don't get the extremes obsessed Supernatural fans are going to. I've never experienced it before, nor have I ever even heard of people going to these extremes before. So it's just...scary for me. :lol: :roll:

But yeah. You're my sunshiney, happy, OBSESSED Chris. :heart: :p

And if anyone is interested, this is from Samantha Ferris' (Ellen) blog and as far as I can tell it's directly from the actress about her appearance in S3 and about that new girls:

"Got word yesterday, and although it is not what we were hoping for, you may see Ellen again. Just not sure when. Sigh. Sometimes i really hate this business. Here is the scoop....the CW is a very young network (ie Smallville) and want their cast to be young and hot....it's their demo. And although i am not repulsive or scaring small children away at the sight of me, let's face it...i ain't Krustin Kruk. So they have decided to bring in two new YOUNG female characters for the boys to play with. An adversary to them and a kick ass demon hunter. Think they want to create some sexual tension on the show. They tried it with Jo, but she ended up being more of a sister figure. That puts Ellen on the backburner. I think she will be off crossing the globe hunting the demons that got out of the gate. No word yet on when i would appear, but I am not scheduled for the first 3-4 episodes. That i know. Love the show and will miss them greatly, but seeing as i don't have a deal with them, i am going to continue to work on other stuff...and if i an workng when SN wants to use me, i may not be available. So we'll just hav to wait and see....but i will keep you updated. I am waiting to hear back on a 13 episode show shooting in Vancouver this summer. No details as i don't want to jinx it. You'll know when i do.
Thanks for all the support. It means a lot."
Sam

Not entirely sure about whether the tags are necessary but...Eh...I'm lazy. :lol:

LMAO! I love Samantha Ferris! I really do! "I ain't no Kristin Kruek." :lol: :roll: But this scares me...Ellen's my favorite recurring character, along with Bobby, and now she won't be on it as much? That's a bad sign for what I, personally, want for the next season. I feel bad for her but, like she said: this is the job she chose and this is how it works.

Ehlwyen

15-06-07, 02:45 AM

whooo. I don't even know where to start. Hmmm...Ah, yes, thank you Heather for recognizing me as both optimistic and obsessive. Wait, should I have been demanding I be seen as obsessive? :eek: Too late for that now! :D

Ok, how I see Kripke's unhappiness is like this: He knows it'll aggravate fans if it doesn't work and knows that this will make a change to the show that he's said in the past won't ever happen. But now the network is forcing him to do it and he's not liking the fact that he has to go back on his word.

That's a very interesting view of it. I'm not sure if it's more comforting or scary. I'm glad Kripke loves the fans, but I pray that he does the show without feeling pressure by the loudest fandom. Mostly because we always seemed to be in sync.

I think the loudest of the factions are newcomers who have just come to the show. They are overcome by the initial obsession (I remember even your fangasmic squeeing back in fall 05!). Having come later to the show, they are trying to establish their voice and place in the fandom. They haven't been with the show long enough that they are ready for change. And they most certainly havent watched each episode more than a couple times. If I haven't seen every episode fn scores of times, then maybe I'd be more possessive and trying to hold onto the show the way it is. No one can take away what SN has meant to me and the obsessive lengths I've taken.

I know Chris would rather see the show canceled now than to have a S3 that disappoints her. That's not me or I would have been happy to see the show end after S1. Sorry Chris! :hug: But I'm okay to have taken a year I wasn't satisfied with so that you and others could have your most favorite year of tv. But I'm okay mostly because of the wonderful promise of a new season. I'm hoping that next year swings back my way. So, I'll take the good with the bad, and if I love something, then there is nothing stopping me from rewatching that episode or scene 83 times in a row.

I think another of the loudest contingents of fans are those who treat episodes the same as if they were popping candy. As soon as they are done with one they crave the next. They squeee and are ready for more. They aren't like us rabid bw fans who analyze the show into infinitum.

Don't get me wrong there are plenty of individuals who analyze and have been with this show that aren't happy. But they are individual voices and have some real reasoning to their views. They are not the mass sentiment that you will mostly hear when you do a drive by into another community.

Now, yes, if the show got canceled, it would be sad for me and I'd be all "gah" for a little bit but I'd move on a lot faster than obsessive fans.
See. I can't move on. Seriously.

This show hits upon all the superficial things I want in a show (among other things, it has supernatural, roadtripping, rock music, and siblings).

SN has become a big enough phenomena that it can't be taken and tweaked in a new similar series (or at least for 20 years). But it's not big enough to have made any impression upon the tv landscape. I'm really stuck in limbo now. I truly need this show to break through the glass ceiling and become a remembered show. As well as I need all the episodes I can get to last me until another series tries to rip it off. ;)

I'm not going off the deep end without the show, but having it in my life adds so much. Yes, I guess I do deserve the obsessive moniker.

I have nothing against female characters in general (though I could live without them in this show actually) or hunters (although I personally would find it more interesting to have support from other professions for the boys, e.g. doctors, lawyers or similar)
Oh.HELL.No. TV does not need another doctor or lawyer character. *thud*

I think there are plenty of opportunities for these girls and next season to be awesome. I mostly must pray that they don't let SN become soapy and more about personal plotlines than larger story arcs. There was so much drama and angst last season I felt like I would drown in it. I'm ready for more horror and action to spin me around so the emotion carries its own sharp edge to cut rather than suffocate me.

galathea

15-06-07, 11:33 AM

I know Chris would rather see the show canceled now than to have a S3 that disappoints her. That's not me or I would have been happy to see the show end after S1. Sorry Chris! :hug: But I'm okay to have taken a year I wasn't satisfied with so that you and others could have your most favorite year of tv. But I'm okay mostly because of the wonderful promise of a new season. I'm hoping that next year swings back my way. So, I'll take the good with the bad, and if I love something, then there is nothing stopping me from rewatching that episode or scene 83 times in a row. Well, I indeed would rather have it cancelled than having a sucky third season and then have it cancelled. I always prefer shows to go out on a high and being remembered for a stellar season than going out on a low and being remembered for that. But even with this new developments I am sure that I will at least love (and definitely want to see) the resolution to Dean's 1 year dilemma. As far as I know there are no changes in the writer staff so I have faith in the fact that what I love about the show (Sam&Dean and their relationship) won't change, only that I will probably get less of it than I want to.

Overall I am not willing or able to let go of the Winchesters, if I see less of them because of the changes, then be it, but that's still better than seeing nothing of them. :lol: I'm just so frustrated with the fact that I think with its storyline set-up S3 has all potential to be another mindblowing season (for my standards) which might go to waste and that the original vision that Kripke had for this season might be tempered with for no other reason than stupid personal agendas of tv execs.

Oh.HELL.No. TV does not need another doctor or lawyer character. *thud*

I think there are plenty of opportunities for these girls and next season to be awesome. I mostly must pray that they don't let SN become soapy and more about personal plotlines than larger story arcs. There was so much drama and angst last season I felt like I would drown in it. I'm ready for more horror and action to spin me around so the emotion carries its own sharp edge to cut rather than suffocate me. :roll: :lol: You need to let go of your hate for medical and procedural dramas. :D I thought about lawyers, police and doctors because I think that with their 'wanted by the FBI' status these would actually prove to be a support that Sam&Dean might need. Mara from FSB or Detective Ballard from TUS already showed how useful these contacts are for the boys. That's one of the reasons why I hope that they manage to slowly turn Henrickson into an ally. Everybody claims the boys should have more interaction with other characters, I just think bringing them out of their isolation as hunters would be a nice step.

S2 was all about the personal plotlines, but nicely connected to the larger storyarcs. Personally that's the reason why I probably love S2 more than S1, it became much more personal and much more about the character arcs. I agree with the assessment that there was an extreme amount of drama/angst in that season, but especially in retrospective and with hindsight of the finale, the angst becomes more handable on a second viewing. I like how they managed to notch up angst and drama without becoming soapy and I hope that they avoid the romantic angle with this new additions because that can clearly go into soapy waters. Well, obviously we have to wait and see. :lol:

Cori

15-06-07, 12:04 PM

LMAO! I love Samantha Ferris! I really do! "I ain't no Kristin Kruek." :lol: :roll: But this scares me...Ellen's my favorite recurring character, along with Bobby, and now she won't be on it as much? That's a bad sign for what I, personally, want for the next season. I feel bad for her but, like she said: this is the job she chose and this is how it works.

I agree, this upsets me as well. :( I really like Ellen so the idea of her getting less screen time because of these two new young regulars is not very appealing to me. Plus the whole an older actress gets pushed aside for some young hot chicks doesn't sit with me very well. :rolleyes:

Still, I'm with Lyn in the trying to stay optimistic camp. ;) Even if these two new characters will be regulars (which I'm not thrilled about at all) and even if there is pressure from the network execs, I still have faith in Kripke & co. that they will manage to find a way to make season 3 a good season despite these new characters.

I know Chris would rather see the show canceled now than to have a S3 that disappoints her. That's not me or I would have been happy to see the show end after S1. Sorry Chris! :hug: But I'm okay to have taken a year I wasn't satisfied with so that you and others could have your most favorite year of tv. But I'm okay mostly because of the wonderful promise of a new season. I'm hoping that next year swings back my way. So, I'll take the good with the bad, and if I love something, then there is nothing stopping me from rewatching that episode or scene 83 times in a row.

Hmmm this is interesting because for me it was just the other way around. I still had my doubt about and problems with the show in season 1 while the sheer awesomeness of season 2 has turned me into a hardcore fan. :D Then again, I like angst and I liked that season 2 was pretty heavily focused on Dean. I think if SN had continued the same way as it was in season 1, I wouldn't care so deeply about the show today.

S2 was all about the personal plotlines, but nicely connected to the larger storyarcs. Personally that's the reason why I probably love S2 more than S1, it became much more personal and much more about the character arcs. I agree with the assessment that there was an extreme amount of drama/angst in that season, but especially in retrospective and with hindsight of the finale, the angst becomes more handable on a second viewing.

Perfectly put and I completely agree! :D

Llywela

15-06-07, 12:13 PM

I'm also in the optimistic camp. I just think that June, before they've even started filming, is way, way too early to start panicking about what may or may not happen. The writers have done right by us so far, so I trust them to be able to work cast additions to their advantage, even if they are being forced upon them, rather than by their own choice.

Expanding the number of people Dean and Sam know and interact with can only be a good thing. They need to broaden their horizons. Maybe 'female hunters' doesn't sound promising on paper, but just look how many guest characters we've had and loved in this show already - none of them would probably sound promising when broken down into a stereotype for casting purposes. It's a long, long way from a rough draft of a script used for auditions to what we'll eventually see on-screen.

'Love interest'? Well, that can mean many things. I know I've seen many comments in the past along the lines of how good it would be to see how the development of an ongoing and meaningful relationship might actually work in practice, given the boys' nomadic lifestyle, and how it would impact upon their relationship. Triangle much? :D Maybe we'll get the chance to find out. Or maybe these new characters will work out completely differently, we don't know. But I'm determined to believe the best. :)

And continue to resent just how long the hiatus is...;)

Ehlwyen

16-06-07, 10:58 PM

Well, I indeed would rather have it cancelled than having a sucky third season and then have it cancelled. I always prefer shows to go out on a high and being remembered for a stellar season than going out on a low and being remembered for that. But even with this new developments I am sure that I will at least love (and definitely want to see) the resolution to Dean's 1 year dilemma. As far as I know there are no changes in the writer staff so I have faith in the fact that what I love about the show (Sam&Dean and their relationship) won't change, only that I will probably get less of it than I want to.

Overall I am not willing or able to let go of the Winchesters, if I see less of them because of the changes, then be it, but that's still better than seeing nothing of them. :lol: I'm just so frustrated with the fact that I think with its storyline set-up S3 has all potential to be another mindblowing season (for my standards) which might go to waste and that the original vision that Kripke had for this season might be tempered with for no other reason than stupid personal agendas of tv execs.

All I'm saying is that I don't believe that SN S3 will be a sucky season because I have faith in the writers etc. So even if S3 isn't as good as previous seasons because of less boys and more other chracters, I still believe the season will have plenty of merit. I think that's what you are eventually coming around to say as well. :D

:roll: :lol: You need to let go of your hate for medical and procedural dramas. :D
Oh this has nothing to do with my personal taste. It's just that if it isn't a reality show, then 80% of shows either have doctors, lawyers, or cops. There are more professions and types of people out there. It gets old. You do not have to sit through the endless commercials for these shows. You do not have to flip through 5 channels with 3 of the shows being of doctor/lawyer/cop/ variety when randomly trying to find something to watch. That's why I love the CW and watch so many shows on it. And hey, I watch my share of such procedural shows, Medium, Bones, L&O. It just starts to dull the senses, same situations, same results, same jokes. Obviously these professions must lend themselves to seeming glamorous, and can have a weekly show built around them. But the average person can get by without ever having to come into contact with any of them. There are so many other interesting stories to tell.

I thought about lawyers, police and doctors because I think that with their 'wanted by the FBI' status these would actually prove to be a support that Sam&Dean might need.

I'm sorry. Did I read that right? Do you realize you are saying you think the boys need some "get out of jail free" cards?

Cause that turns my stomach. People hated how Charmed always had Leo to save them from traumatic wounds or get them out of jail or tight spots. That's all I see happening from having a single friend who is of that profession. I always loved how Dean would get information or help from whoever a local girl was. It's the local and individual stories that make SN so compelling.

Mara from FSB or Detective Ballard from TUS already showed how useful these contacts are for the boys. That's one of the reasons why I hope that they manage to slowly turn Henrickson into an ally. Everybody claims the boys should have more interaction with other characters, I just think bringing them out of their isolation as hunters would be a nice step.

I'm so sick. The idea of the Winchesters having an FBI "friend" to save them wherever they get caught just kills me.

I like how everything has been serious for the Winchesters. If they get caught, there is nothing in the back of mind saying so and so will rescue them. They have rely on their own wits and wiles to save them. I agree they seem isolated and could use more contacts, but I want them to remain independent. Everyone needs friends, but that friend shouldn't have the power to make a phone call to get them out of jail.

And since we're bringing up Mara, her character as a public defender was totally screwed. If she had been a personal attorney/friend then fine. But obviously you can't have a court appointed public defender until you appear in court and the court appoints one. And all the law is screwed to hell anyway in the show, so I don't know why I'm even bothering ranting. But that brings me back to the point, if they're just going to write the show the way they want, it would be a lot more enjoyable with crazy hijinks than a simple friend to save them.

S2 was all about the personal plotlines, but nicely connected to the larger storyarcs. Personally that's the reason why I probably love S2 more than S1, it became much more personal and much more about the character arcs. I agree with the assessment that there was an extreme amount of drama/angst in that season, but especially in retrospective and with hindsight of the finale, the angst becomes more handable on a second viewing. I like how they managed to notch up angst and drama without becoming soapy and I hope that they avoid the romantic angle with this new additions because that can clearly go into soapy waters. Well, obviously we have to wait and see. :lol:

I agree it was very well done and that's why I love the show! However, S2 was too much for me because the emotion and angst just kept getting layered upon them every episode without any real reprieve. And by end it seems like a lot that angst was just excessive as there was no resolve or even mention of the Dean might have to kill Sam fear. If almost every episode was going to revolve around that fear, then there needed to be some resolution. If it was something to be dealt with in a later season, then only every once in a while did the topic need to be brought up. If it's not even going to happen ever, then it was just done as excess to falsely up the emotion of the show. However, the season is done and can't be changed so I only look to the future. Let me get back to my original point.

Let me explain. For me drama and soapyness are two distinct entities. Drama is where external events bring out tension and emotional reactions, but in summarizing the episode, you explain the outside events. Everyone in the show reacts to the same event.

Soapyness is where events are only a result of people's emotions and actions. In summarizing an episode, you say soandso did this to somebody else, while another person got back at soandso by doing this. There are all these mini plotlines that are often separate and are only connected by the people involved.

So when I say a show goes soapy it is a writing style rather than having too much emotion or personal reaction. It's the splintering the show into several ongoing storylines where not every character is involved that is soapy.

Hmmm this is interesting because for me it was just the other way around. I still had my doubt about and problems with the show in season 1 while the sheer awesomeness of season 2 has turned me into a hardcore fan. Then again, I like angst and I liked that season 2 was pretty heavily focused on Dean. I think if SN had continued the same way as it was in season 1, I wouldn't care so deeply about the show today.
:hug: See! That's why I'm content to let the show go on. Each twist and turn it makes brings more people in to love the show and at least appreciate a little of what I love about it. :hug: I know S1 wasn't really your style, but I loved having you to squee about the show in S2! :heart:

Expanding the number of people Dean and Sam know and interact with can only be a good thing. They need to broaden their horizons. Maybe 'female hunters' doesn't sound promising on paper, but just look how many guest characters we've had and loved in this show already - none of them would probably sound promising when broken down into a stereotype for casting purposes. It's a long, long way from a rough draft of a script used for auditions to what we'll eventually see on-screen.

Exactly, "female hunters" is just the brief paper description of the show. Hey, when SN first started, so many people thought the idea of two hot guys in a hot car driving across america fighting evil was lame. And I think all of us thought even the title "Supernatural" is generic. The show has always been so much more and I expect any new characters to follow pattern.

However, the time from rough draft of script to filming is not very long if they will be in the opener. However, I have heard a rumor these female hunters are not appearing to the 3rd or 4th episode. lol, the rumor tornado (rumornado?) is just pickin' up and I bet it will be a wild ride until September. Only fitting for these Kansas boys.

galathea

16-06-07, 11:57 PM

I'm sorry. Did I read that right? Do you realize you are saying you think the boys need some "get out of jail free" cards?
(...)
I'm so sick. The idea of the Winchesters having an FBI "friend" to save them wherever they get caught just kills me. Uhm, nobody is talking about a 'get out of jail free card' or someone who is saving them on a regular basis. The boys proved to be resourceful and able to weasel their way out of serious situations and I love that as well. I am just saying, that with the travelling around and saving the boys do, I don't find it far fetched that they make allies in various professions. Obviously this won't pave them their way. Ballard or Mara (sorry I have no idea about legal systems, so I don't question their use of lawyers etc here) clearly show, that help can often only go so far as to save them some trouble along the way or soften the aftereffects, rather than saving them from the situations themselves.

Nowhere did I say that I want an allmighty friend, who gets the boys out of trouble, that would be boring and unrealistic. Even if Henrickson let's say over the course of 1-2 seasons comes around to the PoV of the boys it doesn't mean that he would be able to get them out of every predicament, after all he is just an FBI agent, caught in his own department and bound to rules and procedures. The boys take help from a lot of people during their travels and I don't see how this would be different.

I agree it was very well done and that's why I love the show! However, S2 was too much for me because the emotion and angst just kept getting layered upon them every episode without any real reprieve. And by end it seems like a lot that angst was just excessive as there was no resolve or even mention of the Dean might have to kill Sam fear. If almost every episode was going to revolve around that fear, then there needed to be some resolution. If it was something to be dealt with in a later season, then only every once in a while did the topic need to be brought up. If it's not even going to happen ever, then it was just done as excess to falsely up the emotion of the show. Yes, the 'Dean might need to kill Sam' plotline was mainly a red herring (if it isn't picked up in S3 again, who knows) but it was born out of the fact that they both didn't know what to expect themselves and based their reactions on pure assumptions and, understandably, on consummating fear. I don't like angst just for the sake of angst either, but I think it was rather well founded in the characters perspective.

If Sam would have succumbed to the 'temptation' of the YED in AHBL I, Dean would probably have been faced with the decision to follow through with his promise. As it is, Sam's fear to be manipulated into becoming a puppet of the YED was ungrounded and hence Dean's promise needed no follow-through. That is kind of a resolution. Maybe not the dramatic resolution we all waited for, but I wasn't too disappointed in the end. Plus, this set-up was essential for the dramatic impact of BUABS. So, well .. I'm okay with that. :D

Rosely

17-06-07, 11:18 AM

Network decision or not, Kripke happy about it or not...
I have faith in the SN writers. They've done a very good job so far, and I'm sure they'll be able to add two female characters to the show and still make it the SN we love and adore. :D

Arashmaharr

17-06-07, 09:53 PM

I think it would be really good to have two new characters in the show, especially if they are regulars, or even recurring. I mean its been two seasons and the show still focuses primarily on Sam and Dean, I think bringing in some new characters will be good for the show.

Ehlwyen

18-06-07, 08:40 AM

Uhm, nobody is talking about a 'get out of jail free card' or someone who is saving them on a regular basis. The boys proved to be resourceful and able to weasel their way out of serious situations and I love that as well. I am just saying, that with the travelling around and saving the boys do, I don't find it far fetched that they make allies in various professions. Obviously this won't pave them their way. Ballard or Mara (sorry I have no idea about legal systems, so I don't question their use of lawyers etc here) clearly show, that help can often only go so far as to save them some trouble along the way or soften the aftereffects, rather than saving them from the situations themselves.

Nowhere did I say that I want an allmighty friend, who gets the boys out of trouble, that would be boring and unrealistic. Even if Henrickson let's say over the course of 1-2 seasons comes around to the PoV of the boys it doesn't mean that he would be able to get them out of every predicament, after all he is just an FBI agent, caught in his own department and bound to rules and procedures. The boys take help from a lot of people during their travels and I don't see how this would be different.

I know you didn't say it. :D I'm just taking what you said to a logical conclusion. If someone is a lawyer or doctor and becomes a recurring character instead of the huntresses then their profession would have a purpose. A lawyer gets them out of trouble, a doctor can heal them. Surely most shows don't say,
"lets introduce a contrived character, yay!" :lol: They see all the possibilites and storyline opportunities and don't realize they have made a character's capabilities close to limitless. Then they have to backtrack and include extraneous rules (Watchers Council, Elders) or laws of morality to keep the characters from being too powerful.

Lol! I don't know why Henrickson would be bound to rules and procedures as almost no one else has been bound by law and legal procedure. And if he was, the extraneous or futileness of those rules would probably tend towards annoying.

And I know you're thinking since I work at a law firm that I'm specialized. However, I don't know any criminal law to amount to anything except from what I've learned from tv. So I find it poor when something sticks out to an average target viewer. My only luxury is that I can simply ask someone if I'm right about something being out of place rather than just wonder. I won't get into all the things that are off about law in SN. It's too much for here.

I realize a court is an extra set, but they could at least refer to it off scene. This is no less legitimate than the numerous little things that other people complain about as mistakes and bloopers.

Anyway, I like seeing the boys have to make do with what resources they have at hand at that time. I loved how Jo had to do some field medicine on Dean to remove the bullet, rather than go to a hospital and had the gunshot wound reported. I love the rugged, blunt, survivalist nature of the show. Tell me that Dean having to mend a hurt Sammy wouldn't be heartbreaking.

And I'd like to see Dean and Sam have to pull a prison break or something equally crackheaded and boyishly outrageous.

Yes, the 'Dean might need to kill Sam' plotline was mainly a red herring (if it isn't picked up in S3 again, who knows) but it was born out of the fact that they both didn't know what to expect themselves and based their reactions on pure assumptions and, understandably, on consummating fear. I don't like angst just for the sake of angst either, but I think it was rather well founded in the characters perspective.

It can't be a red herring. It's like a reoccuring theme that the two brothers will eventually have an ultimate fight and/or Sam will go evil and Dean will have to make a choice. From the very beginning they argue, but as early as Skin where skindemon!Dean tries to kill Sam or Asylum where possessed/pushed!Sam tries to kill Dean. It's already part of the show's makeup. It will come up again. And unless the show is abruptly canceled, I believe we will see this ultimate fight between them.

So I do feel the angst was for angst sake since they didn't even play up the idea that if Dean didn't have to kill Sam then he should let him die. At no point did I ever disagree with Dean's decision to save Sammy. The YED was claiming the Winchesters one by one and would have just killed Dean. Dean had to have Sammy by his side or the YED would have successfully destroyed them all and gotten away with it. Obviously nothing in the show defines that Dean couldn't have done it on his own. I do think Dean would have been too distraught and reckless to be effect. I just really believe Dean needed Sam to have the luck to kill the YED.

If Sam would have succumbed to the 'temptation' of the YED in AHBL I, Dean would probably have been faced with the decision to follow through with his promise. As it is, Sam's fear to be manipulated into becoming a puppet of the YED was ungrounded and hence Dean's promise needed no follow-through. That is kind of a resolution. Maybe not the dramatic resolution we all waited for, but I wasn't too disappointed in the end. Plus, this set-up was essential for the dramatic impact of BUABS. So, well .. I'm okay with that. :D

But Sam really never showed any temptation at all so I never really questioned his going evil. Even when he cold bloodedly killed that guy and the YED taunted Dean, Sam's behavior was still extremely human and understandable. I do expect for Sam to start to go darker next season even if the YED isn't around pushing. Sam still is a psychic child

I guess you're right about BUABS needing something. Not everyone is like me and has already been waiting for Sam to turn evil since the time of Scarecrow. So BUABS did need that fear already mentioned or it wouldn't have carried as much dread.

However, Sam has been carrying the fear of being pushed to the evil side since Nightmares so it's not like John's secret was that much of a revelation. A crappy last words to a son, definitely, but not too surprising to the audience. Just another reason why I find it to be angst for the sake of angst on the characters.

Well, we've strayed pretty far from the S3 topic so I'm cutting short the ramblings.

galathea

18-06-07, 11:12 AM

Anyway, I like seeing the boys have to make do with what resources they have at hand at that time. I loved how Jo had to do some field medicine on Dean to remove the bullet, rather than go to a hospital and had the gunshot wound reported. I love the rugged, blunt, survivalist nature of the show. Tell me that Dean having to mend a hurt Sammy wouldn't be heartbreaking. Actually I am waiting for a Sam and Dean patch each other up scene like forever! :D I should add that to my S3 wishlist. Given their 'Wanted' status and their need to ditch the credit/insurance cards, going to a hospital will be increasingly more difficult if not impossible. So yep, I want that, doesn't mean though that they can't have a doctor friend.

It can't be a red herring. It's like a reoccuring theme that the two brothers will eventually have an ultimate fight and/or Sam will go evil and Dean will have to make a choice. From the very beginning they argue, but as early as Skin where skindemon!Dean tries to kill Sam or Asylum where possessed/pushed!Sam tries to kill Dean. It's already part of the show's makeup. It will come up again. And unless the show is abruptly canceled, I believe we will see this ultimate fight between them. I am aware that Sam vs Dean is a recurring theme, I just meant in regard to the 'secret' and the 'promise' as both of these themes had no follow-through and their fears proved to be ill founded on lack of information. Unlike you I was never ever fond of the Sam-goes-evil idea and I was immensely relieved that they played the theme so far only with possession/evil influence/no free will but left the character integrity intact.

So I do feel the angst was for angst sake since they didn't even play up the idea that if Dean didn't have to kill Sam then he should let him die. At no point did I ever disagree with Dean's decision to save Sammy. The YED was claiming the Winchesters one by one and would have just killed Dean. Dean had to have Sammy by his side or the YED would have successfully destroyed them all and gotten away with it. Obviously nothing in the show defines that Dean couldn't have done it on his own. I do think Dean would have been too distraught and reckless to be effect. I just really believe Dean needed Sam to have the luck to kill the YED. Uhm I am totally confused here. :lol: I am not sure what you are trying to say, care to elaborate? Why would there have been a need for letting Sam die if Dean didn't need to kill him?! And do you mean that Dean wouldn't have been able to destroy the YED if Sam had stayed dead (which I agree with, since he wouldn't even have been there in that case) or do you mean that Dean specifically needed Sam's presence in that moment. I don't quite understand how this refers to the angst topic. :confused:

But Sam really never showed any temptation at all so I never really questioned his going evil. Even when he cold bloodedly killed that guy and the YED taunted Dean, Sam's behavior was still extremely human and understandable. I do expect for Sam to start to go darker next season even if the YED isn't around pushing. Sam still is a psychic childBut that was the whole point! That it was unclear how the 'going evil' would be achieved by the YED and if he would be able to push/switch Sam on a level Sam wasn't able to control. The fear that there was something inherently evil in him was what drove Sam most part of the 2nd season, so I don't think it was angst just for the angst sake. Being in control of your own destiny was what it was all about, it was one of the main themes of this season. And Sam killing Jake in cold blood was human, true, but it was at an extreme for Sam's character. I too expect Sam to be darker next season. Something I will be worrying over as long as I don't know how they will play it. /sigh

However, Sam has been carrying the fear of being pushed to the evil side since Nightmares so it's not like John's secret was that much of a revelation. A crappy last words to a son, definitely, but not too surprising to the audience. Just another reason why I find it to be angst for the sake of angst on the characters. See, I loved that the secret was something the audience would be able to conclude from everything that preceded that point in the story, rather than being some huge mysterious revelation. I am a fan of being led somewhere consequently Even from the point of 'Nightmare' on Sam's angst was founded in nescience about what's to come. It's part of the show ever since S1, they just upped it in S2.

LRae12

18-06-07, 04:12 PM

I really don't know how I feel about two new female regulars.

On one hand, I've always been a softie for coupling and love stories, yadda, yadda, yadda, and if SN goes that route, I'll still watch, become enchanted of disenchanted with the couplings as the case may be, and have 22 entertaining hours of television.

On the other hand, Supernatural has been a different kind of show for me...in that there haven't been any couplings, and I still love it! I preferred S1 to S2 in that most of the episodes were stand alones that really had little to do with overall Seasonal arcs, and I found that refreshing in a TV series. S2 was much more an arc, and while it was still enjoyable and entertaining, I think it moved away from it's original charm for me.

So if S3 is moving into ships and whatnot, I'm sure I'll still be just as enthralled, but I can see how many people will be turned off that the show they loved for aspects other than ships is going to be changed into another weekly soap-opera.

Then again, that may not happen. But monkeys could also take over the world. ;)

Llywela

18-06-07, 04:16 PM

The latest impression I'm getting is that these two characters - or rather their actors - are being contracted in this way in order to have them available whenever the show needs them for plot development, without fear of them being tied up in other projects at inconvenient moments, rather than to shoehorn them into as many episodes as possible. If this is the case, it's a positive sign.

I still believe we should trust the writers to know what works best for their show - they clearly care about their characters and the world they have created, and long may that continue!

galathea

18-06-07, 04:22 PM

So if S3 is moving into ships and whatnot, I'm sure I'll still be just as enthralled, but I can see how many people will be turned off that the show they loved for aspects other than ships is going to be changed into another weekly soap-opera. There are already a great number of ships floating around in the SN fandom: Sam/Jess, Sam/Ava, Sam/Sarah, Sam/Madison, Dean/Cassie, Dean/Jo etc. It's just that the romantic envolvements never took a main seat in the SN universe. Moving into ships and soap-opera usually means competing couplings, characters fighting over the same love interests, changing of partnerships as an area to arise conflicts. I don't really see that happen with SN. Dean always stepped back when Sam shows interest in a woman and vice versa, they were never competing. I think the writers on this show just are too intelligent to work romance that way.

At the moment both characters are a more or less depicted as adversaries. I am not at all sure that they will be introduced as love interests at all. Maybe they will try to seduce/get to the boys, but actually with their given character states I don't see the boys necessarily fall for that. We will see how it works out. :) I mean, I try to be cautiously optimistic, because I am one of those who loves about SN that romance is only marginally involved in this show. I hope it stays that way!

Willow's Tara

19-06-07, 06:38 AM

If this is true, I wouldn't mind seeing it, I know make Lenore have a twin non vampire sister;) (What? I wouldn't mind seeing Amber Benson back as any role), anyway I wonder who would play those roles anyway? And I wonder if we will ever see anyone who had travelled alot again

Ehlwyen

21-06-07, 07:06 AM

Actually I am waiting for a Sam and Dean patch each other up scene like forever! :D I should add that to my S3 wishlist.

:hug: We agree!!! :2party: Hmmm...I should start my wishlist. :heart:

I am aware that Sam vs Dean is a recurring theme, I just meant in regard to the 'secret' and the 'promise' as both of these themes had no follow-through and their fears proved to be ill founded on lack of information. Unlike you I was never ever fond of the Sam-goes-evil idea and I was immensely relieved that they played the theme so far only with possession/evil influence/no free will but left the character integrity intact.

Well I think they are slowly building to Sam goes evil rather than it being discarded. The possession may have been yet another tease for those waiting, but I by far don't believe that's as far as they dare. Just that they're doing this in torturously slow steps. Curse the BUABS promo for getting up my hopes that Sam was having fugue states on his own journey to the evil taking over. :sadwalk: *sigh* And JP was so awesome at playing Sam evil. But that being said, once they play the card (and they resolve it) then they can't play it anymore. So I don't mind holding out. :xd

Uhm I am totally confused here. :lol: I am not sure what you are trying to say, care to elaborate? Why would there have been a need for letting Sam die if Dean didn't need to kill him?! And do you mean that Dean wouldn't have been able to destroy the YED if Sam had stayed dead (which I agree with, since he wouldn't even have been there in that case) or do you mean that Dean specifically needed Sam's presence in that moment. I don't quite understand how this refers to the angst topic. :confused:

Sorry! I meant what if the message's real meaning wasn't "to kill Sam" (an active action), but in an ironic twist, "to just let Sam die"(passivity). Sometimes doing nothing is its own choice and in itself heartwrenching.

So I was relating to the angst by twisting Dad's message to mean just a little different.

But that was the whole point! That it was unclear how the 'going evil' would be achieved by the YED and if he would be able to push/switch Sam on a level Sam wasn't able to control. The fear that there was something inherently evil in him was what drove Sam most part of the 2nd season, so I don't think it was angst just for the angst sake. Being in control of your own destiny was what it was all about, it was one of the main themes of this season. And Sam killing Jake in cold blood was human, true, but it was at an extreme for Sam's character. I too expect Sam to be darker next season. Something I will be worrying over as long as I don't know how they will play it. /sigh

Okay, now it's my turn to be lost. :lol: I think we've misunderstood each other somewhere along the way. I'm not sure what was supposed to be the whole point. I was saying the secret really didn't play into the story because we never saw any reason of Sam being tempted or pushed into evil. The secret created an artificial storyline of angst between the brothers that would have otherwise not evolved from their current life events.

I see what you are saying about being in control of one's destiny as being an important topic this year. Unfortunately, I find it a sad exhibition of being trapped by fear. Destiny didn't control them as much as their fear of destiny. And that's just an extremely sad and empty thing. Though a chance event killed Sam, I believe they were amiss to be so adrift in their struggle against destiny. I never felt more emotional and enraged about the brother's fear of destiny than after 1.13 and before 1.14 so I'm very glad that you saw the topic as important as well.

See, I loved that the secret was something the audience would be able to conclude from everything that preceded that point in the story, rather than being some huge mysterious revelation. I am a fan of being led somewhere consequently Even from the point of 'Nightmare' on Sam's angst was founded in nescience about what's to come. It's part of the show ever since S1, they just upped it in S2.

Hmmm..."nescience" is a word I'm not terribly familiar and am unsure what you mean in this context. Dictionary says ignorance and I just don't connect with that definition here. Would either unknown or naivete/innocence work with what you are saying? That's how I see it. Sam's fear of the unknown and his childlike desire to hold back rather than forge forward into the unknown has been his weakness. And this year, with the secret, Dean got sucked into his protecting Sam's "innocence." But I believe without the secret, Dean wouldn't have been hindered by fear.

Dean considered Dad's word as essentially gospel, and therefore he rarely questioned Dad. So if Dad said something, it must be true. If Dad hadn't said the secret, Dean might have had suspicions, but Dean would have had more ****iness and faith in himself to be able to make his own destiny...and control Sam's as well.

Personally, I believe the secret basically screwed with everyone's dynamics. It made the show go into a direction that the course of events wasn't ready to go yet. So now when the events finally catch up and Sam goes evil, all the angst will be played out and not feel freshing and biting.

I really don't know how I feel about two new female regulars.

On one hand, I've always been a softie for coupling and love stories, yadda, yadda, yadda, and if SN goes that route, I'll still watch, become enchanted of disenchanted with the couplings as the case may be, and have 22 entertaining hours of television.

On the other hand, Supernatural has been a different kind of show for me...in that there haven't been any couplings, and I still love it! I preferred S1 to S2 in that most of the episodes were stand alones that really had little to do with overall Seasonal arcs, and I found that refreshing in a TV series. S2 was much more an arc, and while it was still enjoyable and entertaining, I think it moved away from it's original charm for me.

So if S3 is moving into ships and whatnot, I'm sure I'll still be just as enthralled, but I can see how many people will be turned off that the show they loved for aspects other than ships is going to be changed into another weekly soap-opera.

Then again, that may not happen. But monkeys could also take over the world.

I have to agree. I loved S1 for its uniqueness in standalones that were so insanely interconnected that I'm still puzzling out new connections. Not that the more arc driven season wasn't well down and enjoyable, but I think it was a little more mundane in its approach.

I see no point in tinkering with SN into a soapy/shippy show. If Dawn Ostroff wanted a supernatural soap so much, she should have picked up Passions. Would have been the smartest move she would have ever made given the age group of Passions viewers and the similarity of topic to just about every CW show. Perfect daily advertising vehicle for all the evening programming, but that's my own personal rant. ;)

And I think it's the dolphins that are going to take over the world. :err:

If this is true, I wouldn't mind seeing it, I know make Lenore have a twin non vampire sister (What? I wouldn't mind seeing Amber Benson back as any role), anyway I wonder who would play those roles anyway? And I wonder if we will ever see anyone who had travelled alot again

I would love for us to randomly run into someone they had met. I always ADORED how Jerry Panowski in Phantom Traveler was actually a previous client who called them with a new job. I loved the feeling of the Winchester's having changed someone's life and made them wiser and more active in standing against the evil.