Angel: After the Fall Issue #2 Discussion Thread [Archive]

patxshand

19-12-07, 08:25 PM

Instead of post a link to my review page OR just typing everything over in here, I'll just post my review here as well.

In short, loved it.

In incredibly long...

What Is It?: Angel- After the Fall: Issue #2 (written by Brian Lynch, plotted by Joss Whedon and Brian Lynch). It's canon.

Timing: Directly following After the Fall: Issue #1.

REVIEW: Get your "Live Fast, Die Never" soundtrack ready to play in the background. Go to youtube and pick your favorite "Angel: Season Six" opening credits to play after the sixth page reveal. This is an experience that fans will want to enjoy, because this comic maintains the momentum that Brian Lynch started in the flawlessly scripted first issue. Though this time around we get less pages (the five extra pages in the first issue was a gift, really), I didn't even notice it. This issue bursts with content: We've got awesome fight scenes, great character interaction, and the return of the other ensouled vamp that everyone's been asking about. Not to mention the return of (SPOILER:)the most interesting character that Joss Whedon never got the chance to dwell on. That's right baby. Enter- Blue Thunder.(/SPOILER)

I don't want to keep comparing this series to "Buffy-Season Eight," which is wonderful as it is, but there is something I'd like to address. A lot of people are taking issue with the fact that Joss Whedon is keeping us in the dark with many of his plots. There are still so many questions that, ten issues into the series, haven't been answered. Why is Dawn a giant? Where has Willow been, and what's up with her crazy new powers? When is this series set? Not to mention that we just found out who Floaty Boots from Issue #1 is at the end of #9. I find the slow discovery very exciting (I think Joss was inspired by slower movement of the arc from his favorite show, Veronica Mars) but I can also see why people are getting antsy to find out. Some even said that this takes away from their reading experience. This is not the case with After the Fall. In this issue, we get heaps of answers to the questions posed in issue #1 (What was that glowy orb that Gunn took from Kr'ph? (Kinda:) How was Gunn sired? What is Spike up to? What's up with Spike and all those babes? How is the Angel/Connor relationship going to be? How does Angel feel about Wesley's sitch? We also kind of get an answer to the questions about the canonicity of Spike: Asylum. That doesn't, and probably won't, get a definitive answer, but Betta George alludes to having spent time with a vampire.

Oh and... to those with a magnifying glass more powerful than mine, you'll known the name of the Dragon in this issue. I'm stickin' with Ramon.

Now that I've BSed enough, allow me to get down to the juicy center of this review. The character's dialogue is, again, great. Spike and Angel's exchanges are classic, but who would expect any less? I have to note though, that I kinda felt like Gwen was talking like she was Faith. Perhaps it's because I haven't seen a Gwen-centric episode in quite some time, but I'm not sold on her dialogue yet. Everyone else that speaks in this issue is spot on, particularly Connor (who didn't have much in the way of a speaking part last time). Lynch continues to shine in his depiction of Spike, introducing him with a scene sort of mirror the time where Angel tells tales of his brave, brave conquests in Pylea. And, for the first time in... ever, the character I was most excited to see is Gunn. If you thought his character arc in Season Five was his biggest and most interesting yet, just hold up a second. His dilemma (nah, it's not just 'grr I'm a vamp, Angel dies and women are eaten!') is something I could have never thought up in my wildest and most badass dreams. While other characters get more page time in this issue than in the first, but Angel is still very much the center of the action and the core of the story. Angel, the man and the series, are in very good hands.

A lot was riding on this issue. It had to keep pleasing those who loved Issue One and sell the series to those unconvinced by Issue One (we never speak of them). No doubt in my mind that people will still complain (see the ART section), but if they didn't this wouldn't be the Buffyverse. For those that aren't LOOKING for reasons to dislike the issue--there are many of these people out there--these twenty-two pages are another treat.

Art: The art from Issue One wasn't very popular with a number of Whedonesquers and other reviewers. People didn't like the dark "muddy" style, and--while I didn't 100% agree--I also thought that the colors could be better. Urru's style vibes much better with the new colorist in this issue, who makes the pages brighter and more vibrant without spoiling the very dark mood of the series. Those who didn't like the art of the first issue will be sold by this issue. However, those people that won't be happy are the ones complaining about the boobage in the comics. I'll break it down character by character. Nina... I'd risk castration by Whedonesquers by saying that her bust size isn't exaggerated by much. People seem to call "gratuitous!" about as quickly as they forget how the actress actually looked. Jenny Mollen isn't Sarah Michelle Gellar. Hell, she isn't even Charisma Carpenter. She has always had the biggest breasts in the series, and her new wardrobe (due to the sun/moon situation) just extenuate them. (RANT:)Her appearance in this issue is a LOT less gratuitous than the male nudity we got throughout the television run of the show and it doesn't even compare to the way that the people complaining about enhanced sexuality are the same ones writing erotic fanfic.(/RANT) *Sigh* Okay. Now about the other characters. Gwen does indeed have bigger boobs than she did in the series, by quite a long shot. She has always been a highly sexual character, but she was never half the size she is here. While it's certainly not a big deal, I think those people complaining about Nina would have more of a case if they brought up Gwen. She, so far, is the only character to be chestually enhanced. People will also take issue with the demon babes, but... that's their thing. Again, the show was highly sexual at times, often showing male nudity at a 4560:1 ratio to female nudity. I urge people to ease up and try to enjoy a story that is very much going places.

Rating: 10/10

--------------WARNING---------------

Beyond this point, there be UNCOVERED spoilers. The following sections are the "Characters We Know" and "Speculation" sections, all of which are VERY spoilery. If you don't want spoilers, then don't read past here.

--------------WARNING---------------

Characters We Know: Angel, Wesley, Nina, Connor, Gwen, Gunn, Spike, Illyria

Lynchverse Characters We Know (from the "Spike" series, newly introduced 'mightbemajors'): Betta George, Spider

Speculation: So Gunn still fancies himself a good guy. A good guy with a disease. I'm loving the idea, especially the "Don't call me a vampire" stuff, which brings to mind John Locke's heartbreaking "Don't tell me what I can't do!" cries. I'm not even going to begin to speculate on what Gunn has coming for him, because the reveal of his "motivations" shocked me enough to just sit back and let the comics tell his story. Last time, I said this about Spike: "My speculation is that Spike has somehow become one of the LA Lords." Well, it's true. Spike is indeed the Lord of Beverly Hills, and he's also Illyria's "pet." I don't know how he is both a Lord (high connotations) and a pet (low connotations), but I'm guessing that he and Illyria are both Lords of the area. Spike's dialogue ("I didn't rise from prisoner to prisoner with benefits to protector back to prisoner with benefits to Lord, just to have you come and muck it up") makes me think that the one who imprisoned him was Illyria herself, who subsequently decided that she liked him enough the "promote" him. Speaking of dynamic duos, I feel like Angel and Connor are going to have a LOT of screen time together. Their shared scene is one of the best in the comic and has further elevated Connor in my books. He was once the worst character of the series, brought up to 'tolerable, pretty cool' in Season Five, and now... You know the rest. I'm glad to have a name to put to the glowy orb (The Eye of Ramras) and a breakdown of what it can do. With Gunn in possession of the EoR, things are going to get hectic fast. And I'll be strapped in for every minute.

Now, I reiterate...

-------------END OF SPOILERS-----------

Rating: 10/10 Classic.

sueworld

19-12-07, 08:33 PM

Wonderful review patxshand!

Spike is Illyria's pet? wow, I don't know if I like that or not. Spike was always some kind of pet, but this is different.

Aww, I don't know. He'd look lovely in a little collar with a pretty leash attached to it. :lol:

Wonderful idea. If I didn't know better I'd think Brian's been reading too many fanfics. :D

patxshand

20-12-07, 12:38 AM

sueworld

20-12-07, 12:50 AM

I love the line "Which of you can do silly voices" myself. Great 'into' for Angel there. :roll:

I also like how relaxed Angel and Connor seem to be in each others presence. Very nice.

Mabus

20-12-07, 01:24 AM

I'm very happy with the development of Gunn here. He's either A) genuinely trying to prove that the soul thing is all hype, or trying to, B) the most dangerous sort of enemy I could imagine for Angel, or C) both. Frankly, I wonder if Bryan Lynch might have read Mabus' "DeadWar" fanfic, because... Gunn is DeadWar Buffy, frankly.

I'm genuinely astonished by this, despite the overwhelmingly positive response to DeadWar. (For all I know, maybe he has read it...apparently a lot of people are reserving comment on LJ until I get closer to the end. ) It's a response I find very believable for Gunn, though. Had I known about the rumors of making him a vampire when I wrote Shadow Sun, I might have found a spot for him in the series. Or maybe not--I wouldn't wanna crowd Buffy. She'd take my head off.

I'm seriously wondering whether the comic will actually go ahead and subvert the trope--after all, we have seen all manner of demons turn out to be good, including a few that everyone assumed to be bloodthirsty monsters. (Up to and including an Old One! At least temporarily...I haven't yet seen exactly how Illyria acts now. And if I understand correctly, the dragon? So much for slaying it.) I'm sure a number of people would be displeased, of course, but then there are also people who would be very happy (interestingly, so far as I can tell they divide up pretty clearly among Bangels and Spuffies). And of course, there are the writers of serious meta--Slayage, for instance--some of whom seem to be as uneasy with Always Chaotic Evil demons as I am.

I also very much want to see who the heck sired Gunn. I find it hard to believe it was Angel--he's gone down that road before with Lawson, and the results weren't pretty. Spike seems more plausible philosophically ("I fought with the good guys for a couple of years before I got a soul.") but he's traditionally been pretty averse to siring folks. Beyond that...well, I am hoping to see Harmony eventually--I thought that might be her with the sword at first--but somehow I don't see it happening. Still--traditional siring standards? Cross-sex.

KingofCretins

20-12-07, 05:46 AM

I haven't yet seen exactly how Illyria acts now. And if I understand correctly, the dragon? So much for slaying it.) I'm sure a number of people would be displeased, of course, but then there are also people who would be very happy (interestingly, so far as I can tell they divide up pretty clearly among Bangels and Spuffies). And of course, there are the writers of serious meta--Slayage, for instance--some of whom seem to be as uneasy with Always Chaotic Evil demons as I am.

Illyria has only said one thing, really, and it's... pretty much the same old Illyria so far. We can infer, at least, that she may have replaced Wesley with Spike in her... affections, so to speak. She refers to him as her pet, at least.

The dragon is of the good, yes, and we see Angel tell Connor (but not us) its name. Whatever it is, Connor seems unimpressed.

I've never understood why the concept of unambivalent evil is troublesome for anyone, but, I don't get the impression that it's something "After the Fall" is going to try to challenge. Vampire/soul metaphysics, definitely. I don't see them taking on the nature of good and evil, though.

I also very much want to see who the heck sired Gunn. I find it hard to believe it was Angel--he's gone down that road before with Lawson, and the results weren't pretty. Spike seems more plausible philosophically ("I fought with the good guys for a couple of years before I got a soul.") but he's traditionally been pretty averse to siring folks. Beyond that...well, I am hoping to see Harmony eventually--I thought that might be her with the sword at first--but somehow I don't see it happening. Still--traditional siring standards? Cross-sex.

Gunn refers to having been dragged away and sired during the alley fight, apparently (at least he feels) without being noticed, as if abandoned. So, early suspicions that Angel or Spike did it and set him up like Lawson are unlikely. He appears to be a fully soulless, chipless, triggerless vampire who still is aflame with that most precious invention of all mankind -- the notion of goodness (pace Caleb). But, with a side dose of pummeling innocent fish and killing and eating the nubile love slaves he rescues.

I'd place him as a cross right now between ChipSpike, DeadWar Buffy, Harmony, and (Supernatural spoiler) the hunter who becomes a vampire in "Fresh Blood".

ThePoet's<3

20-12-07, 05:58 AM

Yessssss, I've been Whedonesqued! lol

What was everyone's favorite part about the issue? Least favorite?

My favorite was (1) Gunn's exchange with Betta George and (2) Spike's heroic story. One very serious, revealling moment, and one laugh out loud scene. Great stuff.

My least favorite... Hmmmm... This is a lot harder than "favorites." :D I guess... the fact that we didn't get a letters section. What's up with that?

DUDE!!! Just read your review - OVER AT YOUR SITE! LOL!! :D Was amazed to find you here!! WELCOME!!! LOVE YOUR SITE AND REVIEWS:heart: :heart:

I haven't read the issue - for some reason I thought it was out 12/27... Was I imagining that???

But can't resist spoilers - especially about my Manpire Spike! So he's Illyria's pet is he??? I think that's so KEWL!! And didn't you say Spider is from Asylum??? (Dangit - I just boxed my comics in the attic...grumble...gotta go get it out...grumble...) I'm hoping they make the whole Asylum series canon - it should be!

I had a feeling 1) Spike was a LA Lord 2) They would all blame Angel for their predicament

Was Spider our demon chick from Asylum who attended group sessions with him?

Mabus

20-12-07, 06:03 AM

I've never understood why the concept of unambivalent evil is troublesome for anyone, but, I don't get the impression that it's something "After the Fall" is going to try to challenge. Vampire/soul metaphysics, definitely. I don't see them taking on the nature of good and evil, though.

It's not "unambivalent evil" that bothers me. It's "evil becaues that's just the way I am". I've been over this before--evil-without-a-choice doesn't qualify as moral evil to me, and doesn't seem terribly compatible with intelligence. But, well...not a road I want to go down in this particular thread, and it's been discussed to death lately.

KingofCretins

20-12-07, 06:12 AM

It's not "unambivalent evil" that bothers me. It's "evil becaues that's just the way I am". I've been over this before--evil-without-a-choice doesn't qualify as moral evil to me, and doesn't seem terribly compatible with intelligence. But, well...not a road I want to go down in this particular thread, and it's been discussed to death lately.

Between Satan and the D&D 'chaotic evil' alignment, I've never had any doubt about the 'evil for evil's own sake' concept.

Was Spider our demon chick from Asylum who attended group sessions with him?

I haven't read Asylum, but if so, then I think we're pushing well past "quasi-canonical" into just good old fashioned "canon". But, how is Asylum going to fit the timeline wherein LA was apparently sent to a hell dimension more or less immediately after "Not Fade Away"?

ThePoet's<3

20-12-07, 06:42 AM

Not sure how that is going to work... I haven't read the issue - I swear I thought it was out 12/27 - but someone mentioned Spike tells a story about some heroic things he did - perhaps that's where it can be connected.

There was a demon-chick in Spike's group but I can't remember her name...(...does...not...want...to..climb...into... attic...) - could have been Spider. There was also a demon-chick who was "used" (perhaps the equivalent of a "crack ho"?) by the vampire gang that roamed the Asylum halls.

In regards to the time line - here is what Lynch had to say when he released the series...

“ Spike is in Los Angeles, and he has a soul, and he's up and about and able to touch (and punch and kick and bite...and also hug...I'd assume. Three issues in and he does not hug anyone. Maybe for SPIKE: ASYLUM summer annual). But beyond that, I'm just telling the best SPIKE story I can, timelines be damned. Pick up the series and you tell us when you think it is. The first correct answer gets a hug. From Spike. "

My guess - between Destiny and Damage... Especially as in Soul Purpose is when Lyndsey approaches Spike about being the new Champion. That would be a great time line for Spike to have had some adventures - with soul - corporeal - and make it in before Not Fade Away. We never know the exact timelines of the episodes anyway. They are chronological of course but do they take place in a day? a week? weeks? months?

patxshand

20-12-07, 07:32 AM

DUDE!!! Just read your review - OVER AT YOUR SITE! LOL!! :D Was amazed to find you here!! WELCOME!!! LOVE YOUR SITE AND REVIEWS:heart: :heart:

Thanks! You're wonderful :roll: I didn't think anyone ever read them lol. I love writing though!

I haven't read the issue - for some reason I thought it was out 12/27... Was I imagining that???

It's the evil TFAW people. I don't know why, but when "After the Fall #1" was about to come out, they assumed for some reason it would be out 11/27. Ever since then, they've been putting the Angel comics release date as a week LATER than the actual date. They only fix it about a week before the issue comes out. #2 came out today annnddd... #3 comes out 1/16!

But can't resist spoilers - especially about my Manpire Spike! So he's Illyria's pet is he??? I think that's so KEWL!! And didn't you say Spider is from Asylum???

Don't fret, Spider is introduced here. I lumped together the Lynchverse character into that one category. It consists of characters from the two Spike series as well as NEW characters from "After the Fall" who look like they will be recurring. Spider was all sorts of clingy to Spike, and he called her by name. He also asked her to smash a cup in anger for him. :xd

(Dangit - I just boxed my comics in the attic...grumble...gotta go get it out...grumble...) I'm hoping they make the whole Asylum series canon - it should be!

It's as good as. Betta George actually mentions spending time with a vampire before this. We all know who that is! For me, that canonized Asylum.

I had a feeling 1) Spike was a LA Lord 2) They would all blame Angel for their predicament

Was Spider our demon chick from Asylum who attended group sessions with him?

Nope, new character. You'll like her. :2party:

patxshand

20-12-07, 07:35 AM

I haven't read Asylum, but if so, then I think we're pushing well past "quasi-canonical" into just good old fashioned "canon". But, how is Asylum going to fit the timeline wherein LA was apparently sent to a hell dimension more or less immediately after "Not Fade Away"?

Oh Lord, King, you haveeee to read Asylum. Really. Comic greatness.

About where it fits in, it's actually easier to place it DURING Season Five. Spike is corporeal, he's trying to prove that he's better than Angel, he's in LA, and Hell has not yet arrived. Lorne is depicted as being in Los Vegas, but it's easy to say that he took a much needed break from W&H. I'd probably place this somewhere around 'Damage.'

ThePoet's<3

20-12-07, 07:54 AM

Oh Lord, King, you haveeee to read Asylum. Really. Comic greatness.
Oh definitely! That's what sold me on Lynch being the right person (other than Joss) to write the series. He has a fantastic capture of the characters - but amazingly Spike.

About where it fits in, it's actually easier to place it DURING Season Five. Spike is corporeal, he's trying to prove that he's better than Angel, he's in LA, and Hell has not yet arrived. Lorne is depicted as being in Los Vegas, but it's easy to say that he took a much needed break from W&H. I'd probably place this somewhere around 'Damage.'

That's what I was thinking as well... Somewhere between Destiny (because he is corporeal) and Damage (because he may still be healing after his run-in with Dana the Dementied Slayer and his trip to Rome with Angel.) Lyndsey sells him on the Champion gig and maybe right after that he has the Asylum and Shadow Puppets adventures.

I would think with references to both comics - Beta George, "spent some time with a vampire", and the Three Puppet Wesleys - including Spoiler Wesley - Joss has given Brian the "go" on canonizing his stories.

Sooo... If that may be the case... I HOPE WE SEE BECK!!!! :2party:

And I will call of the expedition to my attic to check out Spider... Hey - a vampire has to find his cuddles somewhere in Hell-A... :D

KingofCretins

20-12-07, 07:58 AM

Transcript is posted, by the way.

So, is Spider an Asylum character? So far, I like her. Not quite sure what to make of her, but I like her.

patxshand

20-12-07, 08:02 AM

Transcript is posted, by the way.

So, is Spider an Asylum character? So far, I like her. Not quite sure what to make of her, but I like her.

Nope, she's strictly "After the Fall."

Transcript already? Damn man, very quick! I'll have to check it out. I'm doing something similar, though I'm not posting it. My mother--a big Angel fan--can't read comics. She's very easily confused by them. As I love writing, I'm 'adapting' each issue into a prose story for her. I'm going to wait until the series is over before giving it to her. It's hard, because there is a lot of internal Angel dialogue, but it's essential to do it in third person. And--if may just be a pet peeve--I hate to do the "Line of dialogue, thought Angel" thing. I like to have characters think in paragraphs, if you know what I'm saying.

KingofCretins

20-12-07, 08:16 AM

I give you specific permission to reproduce mine for her if you think she'd have an easy enough time reading the adapted script format.

Seriously, though, I think Spider is pretty cool. How many people could you ask to throw something away angrily for you and have them actually willing to do it? If she's the significant character for Spike that Lynch mentioned, I'm all about it.

patxshand

20-12-07, 08:25 AM

I give you specific permission to reproduce mine for her if you think she'd have an easy enough time reading the adapted script format.

Thanks. :) I was actually planning on asking you if I could use it. You rock like the skin of Skip.

Seriously, though, I think Spider is pretty cool. How many people could you ask to throw something away angrily for you and have them actually willing to do it?

Not many at all. I only know one person, and he doesn't even throw things angrily enough! I need myself a Spider. Except not named Spider. I have a phobia. :err:

If she's the significant character for Spike that Lynch mentioned, I'm all about it.

Oh I have no doubt that she is. If he said "one of Spike's girls," I'd say he was fooling us and alluding to Illyria. But I think I remember him specifically saying it was a girl on the cover. Spider is there, so it must be!

ThePoet's<3

20-12-07, 08:33 AM

Thanks KoC for the transcipt - was hoping you would get to it tonight... that's why I was hanging out! Just read - AWESOME!!

I'll have to check Spider out... I prefer Beck, myself.

Gunn's sitch is so sad... I was really feeling for him during his scene with BG. However, from him almost making sushi from BG - seems he DOES need the SOUL and maybe the SOUL - his soul - does matter... It will be interesting to find out who sired him. From what I read - I don't think the Fang Boyz are responsible. Something makes me think they left him to die (his comment about "dragon-whispering") and some other vamp got to him.

On that note - we need to place bets for what the Dragon's name is going to be!!! My vote???? BUFFY! LOL! :D

KingofCretins

20-12-07, 08:36 AM

I'm not sure if the name might not be legible under magnification. I don't have anything to try it with. I'm still calling him Elliott until they tell us his name.

Maybe Angel named him "Manilow".

Thanks for feedback praise, Poet. I know not everyone can get the comics right away, and I like to have people to talk to, so I try to do the transcript the day each issue comes out.

vampmogs

20-12-07, 01:53 PM

Haven't got my hands on the issue yet but I've read the transcript and gotta say not digging how both Spike and Gunn are trying to blame this all on Angel. Angel gave them a choice, the writers explicitly make this clear when he states he couldn't do this without them and that "as a team" they have to decide if it was worth fighting for. They all supported it, in fact their support is the only reason it could go ahead, so I'm hoping they come to this realisation and not blame it all on Angel as everyone seems to do when things get tough. Other than that, very interesting. Hard to get a grasp on the issue just from the transcripts so I'm looking foward to seeing the issue for myself. :)

KingofCretins

20-12-07, 02:28 PM

vampmogs

20-12-07, 02:54 PM

Well, they could have opted out, but realistically, Angel was already committed -- he'd have either had to join the Circle in earnest or be found out and killed. There wasn't much else for it but to go ahead, and the plan (as so many of Angel's did) was put in motion without them even knowing.

Angel states that he can't do it without them. He put the plan into motion because he had to set the foundations without them but it is made very clear without them he couldn't go ahead. He asks them "as a team" to decide "if this is something worth fighting for." Both lines strike me as particularly important because they then "as a team" begin raising their hands as a sign to show they do believe it was worth fighting for. So to have them turn around and suddenly try and blame this entire thing on Angel to me indicates they are in denial and don't want to deal with what *they* did. It is much easier to put the blame on the guy who brought up the idea but deep down I think they'll have to face what they did. Angel makes it clear that they probably won't win he tells them when the dust clears ten to one they won't be there left standing.

I don't believe they only said yes because Angel had already began the plan. Wes in particular is someone who does what he believes is right regardless of Angel, as for example in 'Origin.' He doesn't let anyone, including Angel walk all over him by that point and I doubt Spike would do it because Angel had already started his plan. You can see the sincerity on Wes' face in particular that he believes in what he is doing when he says "I'm in." And Spike has the little moment of pausing, looking down at the ground, thinking about what Angel is really saying then saying "I'm in" as well, in fact he was the first.

I’m not letting any of them off the hook for this as the writers explicitly made an effort to show they all had to be in this for it to go ahead and made a big effort in showing it was a team decision. I don’t think many could argue the whole scene in ‘Power play’ was shown as a big team bonding thing.

I think this comes back to the critical divide between the plan itself being a good idea or a bad idea. I think the results speak for themselves -- especially with Angel now claiming that they knew something like this could happen.

I don't believe Angel ever thought that LA would be sent to hell. I think he was referring to the fact he knew it wasn't going to end well for them, which he did state in 'Powerplay.'

I'm not letting Angel off the hook either but I'm not going to put all the blame on him. The guy is right to stick up for himself he shouldn't just stand there and take it from people who genuingly believed in what they were doing and had a big old choice.

Oh and I'm also very pleased to see Connor not doing the same. I said earlier in the thread that I hope they do the very opposite of what everyone was expecting and make Connor and Angel on good terms seeing that most of the fandom expected bad blood between them again. It is great to see Connor not revert to form.

KingofCretins

20-12-07, 10:54 PM

Something I noticed -- I didn't put it in the transcript because it wasn't explicitly confirmed, but to me, Gunn has clearly set up shop in the Hyperion.

I think that's pretty awesome, in terms of its symbolism -- he thinks Angel is the enemy, the one who doesn't understand what being good is about, and he chooses his base in the place most associated with Angel, the Champion.

NileQT87

20-12-07, 11:32 PM

the difference is that angel and connor are clearly the champions and gunn is a soulless demon who doesn't even fully understand or realize it. he's another sam lawson case of someone who didn't come to terms with the change but does all the things a soulless vampire does (kill innocents and have no regret about it).

and spike is currently proving to be the biggest hypocrite there (and he's not coming out smelling like roses--he isn't spike, he's william--big difference). he was the first to raise his hand. you don't see wesley blaming angel, and he's dead. not to mention connor who never even was let in on the deal, but, like the survivor that connor is, copes and makes the best of it. if anyone can smell like roses in a hell dimension, it's connor.

the difference is that wesley understands angel on a completely different level from spike. wesley was always the other character who made similar decisions to angel that people frequently disliked, but they were necessary given all the knowledge the characters had. wesley is the character that probably has the greatest insight into how angel's mind works because his mind works very similarly. they sacrifice the smaller picture (generally themselves) for the bigger picture. it's not about the ants in los angeles fighting over the last malomar in the box (akin to the demon lords fighting). it's about destroying wolfram & hart. angel, wesley and connor all get it. they'll all do awful things or let things happen for a greater purpose... they'll pick their battles by letting some be lost, so they can reach for something higher. it goes right back to holland and lindsey's speeches about what wolfram & hart is.

angel is the one with the big brass testes who makes those hard decisions, just like connor picked between what he thought was the lesser of two evils (jasmine) and wesley sacrificed his place in the family to save angel the pain of having connor's blood on his hands.

spike was changing in season 5--and that's the part that lynch didn't seem to notice when mapping out where the characters were at. lynch is writing soulless-spike here, not william, who was starting to become a champion. the next step for him was doing things that not only didn't benefit him, but hurting and sacrificing himself for a higher purpose that nobody even will understand or agree with until the aftermath.

KingofCretins

20-12-07, 11:55 PM

spike was changing in season 5--and that's the part that lynch didn't seem to notice when mapping out where the characters were at. lynch is writing soulless-spike here, not william, who was starting to become a champion. the next step for him was doing things that not only didn't benefit him, but hurting and sacrificing himself for a higher purpose that nobody even will understand or agree with until the aftermath.

As far as I'm concerned, "William" died in the 19th century. The demon that mapped itself on to his personality now has a soul, but it's still the demon. These are, to be honest, long-standing differences of opinions in the fandom that have never received any kind of definite resolution. Indeed, Joss has often let it be redefined to fit the needs of the story. "After the Fall" is clearly going to be diving right into the metaphysics of vampires and souls again, and it may just be time that Joss is going to take some definitive stances on these questions.

angel, wesley and connor all get it. they'll all do awful things or let things happen for a greater purpose... they'll pick their battles by letting some be lost, so they can reach for something higher.

This sounds a lot like the kind of thing Angel was saying when he was pretending to be basically evil, in "Power Play" -- when Wesley reminded him so pointedly that the "statistic"'s name was Stacey. It's something I hope he's not going to return to, because this is the sort of thinking that led them into a hell dimension in the first place, to give up on going from small victory to small victory and starting to ignore the small stuff to accomplish grandiose pyrrhic victories... such as killing the Circle.

I think Connor is adapting so well because it's the least unpleasant for him. Not only did he spend his entire childhood in a hell dimension (and he knows that now), it was, presumably, a worse one than the one they are in now. Plus, I got a 'shippy vibe when he caught Gwen in the Rose Bowl, and that will brighten up his day to day considerably.

Mabus

21-12-07, 12:59 AM

This sounds a lot like the kind of thing Angel was saying when he was pretending to be basically evil, in "Power Play" -- when Wesley reminded him so pointedly that the "statistic"'s name was Stacey. It's something I hope he's not going to return to, because this is the sort of thinking that led them into a hell dimension in the first place, to give up on going from small victory to small victory and starting to ignore the small stuff to accomplish grandiose pyrrhic victories... such as killing the Circle.

I think I'm with Dan here...only more so.

"Kill 'em all." "We have a death ray, don't we?" Is that Angel? Yes, it is...but not the Angel who's a hero. This is the Angel we saw after Darla's second turning, and he doesn't even realize how much Wolfram & Hart have changed him--at least then, he was aware. The difference between NFA and Reunion is that this time, it's not Darla and Dru in the cellar--it's Angel. And he's persuaded his friends to join him.

I find it hard to believe that the Senior Partners would have arranged the destruction of the Circle of the Black Thorn, yes--but they certainly didn't seem to have any worries about the death of their previous Los Angeles CEO and most of his management team, not if they corrupted Angel in the process. Maybe they are willing. It's the apocalypse, after all.

Is this what the authors are thinking? Maybe not...heck, probably not...but it's what the current plot suggests to me.

Maggie

21-12-07, 09:05 AM

and spike is currently proving to be the biggest hypocrite there (and he's not coming out smelling like roses--he isn't spike, he's william--big difference). he was the first to raise his hand. you don't see wesley blaming angel, and he's dead. not to mention connor who never even was let in on the deal, but, like the survivor that connor is, copes and makes the best of it. if anyone can smell like roses in a hell dimension, it's connor.

Spike was the first to raise his hand -- but I think that was a vote to give up his life to save the world, a vote for loyalty to Angel, and an implicit trust that Angel knew what the heck he was doing. Angel clearly didn't. We in the audience could see that at the time. Now it's clear to anybody. And Spike, who realizes now that he damned people instead of saving them is a tad bitter. Granted, I'm a pro-Spike kind of a gal -- but in this case it feels like a straight-up reading. Spike made a mistake in trusting Angel. He's mad because that trust is misplaced. I'm madder at Angel, the LEADER, the so-called champion, for leading his team into darkness. And am maddest most at Gunn's plight. The dragon-whisperer dig was killer. And I don't yet see Angel doing the kind of mea culpa that a LEADER is supposed to make when he has screwed up monumentally. Sorry, I dislike Angel at the moment. Really, quite a lot.

Spike's situation is obviously more than it seems at the moment. And Gunn, Gunn, Gunn -- how cool is all of that? So sad though. I'm totally channeling his anger at Angel.

Shin

21-12-07, 01:46 PM

Spike was the first to raise his hand -- but I think that was a vote to give up his life to save the world, a vote for loyalty to Angel, and an implicit trust that Angel knew what the heck he was doing. Angel clearly didn't. We in the audience could see that at the time. Now it's clear to anybody. And Spike, who realizes now that he damned people instead of saving them is a tad bitter. Granted, I'm a pro-Spike kind of a gal -- but in this case it feels like a straight-up reading. Spike made a mistake in trusting Angel. He's mad because that trust is misplaced. I'm madder at Angel, the LEADER, the so-called champion, for leading his team into darkness. And am maddest most at Gunn's plight. The dragon-whisperer dig was killer. And I don't yet see Angel doing the kind of mea culpa that a LEADER is supposed to make when he has screwed up monumentally. Sorry, I dislike Angel at the moment. Really, quite a lot.

Spike's situation is obviously more than it seems at the moment. And Gunn, Gunn, Gunn -- how cool is all of that? So sad though. I'm totally channeling his anger at Angel.
I don't agree with that at all. Spike has no right to talk to Angel like that, he was fully aware of the plan and Angel had no way of knowing that WR&H would send LA to hell and he has reason to believe they wouldn't do anything like that. Remember Holland's little speech about the human dimension being their "Home Office". Angel thought if anyone got hurt, it would've been them. Everyone signed up for that Spike, Wesley, Gunn, Lorne and Illyria knew they could end up dead. Spike has no right to whine about Gunn dying, because Gunn knew that that could happen and frankly I believe Gunn wouldn't whine about himself dying if he were still human and could tell Angel. You don't see Wesley blaming Angel for LA going to hell either. I think he does kind of blame him for the contract thing though, but that's understandable and reasonable. Spike is just bitter and drunk that's why he talks like that and Angel has every right to get mad about that. Because even if he doesn't like it Spike is, even if it is 0.1%, partle responsible for this mess too and if he blames it all on Angel, that's just not fair. If it were anyone else that had a reasonable comment on Angel's ruined plan, he wouldn't get so mad about it. But c'mon, if someone that was with you like that, blames you for your friend's deaths, you would get mad too. Plus Angel has had a crappy time lately, first he lost most of his friends, then got stuck in WR&H-building, found out LA was in hell and Wesley might be with the enemy. While Spike is there bragging about how great he is, living the good life.

Maggie

21-12-07, 09:07 PM

I don't agree with that at all. Spike has no right to talk to Angel like that, he was fully aware of the plan and Angel had no way of knowing that WR&H would send LA to hell and he has reason to believe they wouldn't do anything like that. Remember Holland's little speech about the human dimension being their "Home Office". Angel thought if anyone got hurt, it would've been them. Everyone signed up for that Spike, Wesley, Gunn, Lorne and Illyria knew they could end up dead. Spike has no right to whine about Gunn dying, because Gunn knew that that could happen and frankly I believe Gunn wouldn't whine about himself dying if he were still human and could tell Angel. You don't see Wesley blaming Angel for LA going to hell either. I think he does kind of blame him for the contract thing though, but that's understandable and reasonable. Spike is just bitter and drunk that's why he talks like that and Angel has every right to get mad about that. Because even if he doesn't like it Spike is, even if it is 0.1%, partle responsible for this mess too and if he blames it all on Angel, that's just not fair. If it were anyone else that had a reasonable comment on Angel's ruined plan, he wouldn't get so mad about it. But c'mon, if someone that was with you like that, blames you for your friend's deaths, you would get mad too. Plus Angel has had a crappy time lately, first he lost most of his friends, then got stuck in WR&H-building, found out LA was in hell and Wesley might be with the enemy. While Spike is there bragging about how great he is, living the good life.

Angel is having a crappy time because he has made some monumentally crappy decisions. Let's not forget that all of this goes back to him selling himself out to W&H, along with his friends (he signed for them), along with mind-raping his friends. So if they were in a pickle, it was a pickle that Angel set up for them. He then launches the Black Thorn plan and only gives them a 'choice' at the last minute. Finally, the role of a leader is to take responsibility for the decisions made. Angel is the leader. It's his responsibility. Everyway this adds up it adds up to being hugely on Angel's shoulders. And Angel's reaction to anybody else saying so is to be rude and/or physically violent with them. (I'm really having a bad bout of Angel dislike right now).

As for Spike, yeah -- he has responsibility here. But nothing like Angel's. And since he was only speaking the truth, Angel had no right to deck him -- given the bold type, Angel is really angry -- and I think it's because he doesn't want to admit that Spike is right.

Finally, Spike's not sitting there boasting. Not in a speech that ends up with the intensely bitter bit about how his 'reward' was that everyone got sent to heaven. That's him being intensely ironic about how screwed up the whole situation is. Everyone is in their perfect personal hell. That's true of Spike as well. And at least part of it is that when he trusted Angel enough to volunteer to risk his life to save the world he sure as heck didn't expect the world to be damned instead. I'd guess the other part of his hell is that he's really in some kind of prison, however gilded, and can't do much to help (at least nothing in an obvious way). Judging from the way both he and Illyria go after Angel's weapons, I'd guess they don't have any. Any reading of that scene that doesn't include Spike being as perfectly punished as everyone else in the gang is missing the point, I think.

vampmogs

21-12-07, 10:31 PM

Ok lets look at this for a moment.

Yes Angel signed a way for his friends but really we'd be kidding ourselves here to say they all hadn't already made up their minds. I mean Gunn said with or without them he is taking the job. So I feel it is a moot point to say Angel put them in that position when they would have put themselves in it anyway. That'd be putting too much blame on Angel and not enough on the gang as well. Angel was going to have to sign no matter what as an executive decision so regardless of how they came about the process people would always find a way to blame him. They put themselves in that position the second they all individually walked down to the limousine, when they themselves said they’d been corrupted.

Secondly- Spike and Wes and Gunn all believed in what they were doing with Angel. I think we are kidding ourselves if we believe otherwise. Spike asks "burn the house down whilst were still standing?" in which Angel replies "that's the plan." Angel makes it very clear to them all when the dust settles they probably won't even be left standing so I guess I missed the part where Spike believed Angel knew what he was doing and was going to be victorious. It is a very Spike thing to do actually, try and off load the blame on someone else whilst it is a very Angel thing to do to burden all that blame. That final scene in 'Powerplay' was a big group decision, that was the point of the scene. A big uplifting moment where the characters believed in what they were doing and made that choice "as a team." Regardless of wether they regret it now, they did it and it is on all of them.

KingofCretins

22-12-07, 01:54 AM

Yes Angel signed a way for his friends but really we'd be kidding ourselves here to say they all hadn't already made up their minds. I mean Gunn said with or without them he is taking the job. So I feel it is a moot point to say Angel put them in that position when they would have put themselves in it anyway. That'd be putting too much blame on Angel and not enough on the gang as well. Angel was going to have to sign no matter what as an executive decision so regardless of how they came about the process people would always find a way to blame him. They put themselves in that position the second they all individually walked down to the limousine, when they themselves said they’d been corrupted.

I still don't buy for a second that there was an offer for Gunn to accept that wasn't conditioned on Angel taking the deal. I honestly laughed while watching the episode when it aired, that Gunn assumed so.

Any informed decision by the gang was voided by the mind-screw they got by Angel's deal. Gunn was the only one who articulated anything but doubt and worry when Angel announced his decision, and then a moment later it's "who's Connor?". Since they didn't *know* Angel fully anymore as of that moment, their judgment on joining him or not is permanently suspect. As far as we know, only Wesley and Connor actually ever got their memories back.

Secondly- Spike and Wes and Gunn all believed in what they were doing with Angel. I think we are kidding ourselves if we believe otherwise. Spike asks "burn the house down whilst were still standing?" in which Angel replies "that's the plan." Angel makes it very clear to them all when the dust settles they probably won't even be left standing so I guess I missed the part where Spike believed Angel knew what he was doing and was going to be victorious. It is a very Spike thing to do actually, try and off load the blame on someone else whilst it is a very Angel thing to do to burden all that blame. That final scene in 'Powerplay' was a big group decision, that was the point of the scene. A big uplifting moment where the characters believed in what they were doing and made that choice "as a team." Regardless of wether they regret it now, they did it and it is on all of them.

I don't think you're realizing the problem -- they signed up to trade their own lives for this big moment of freedom for the world, leaving it a better place, with greater hope of throwing off the Senior Partners manipulation. None of that actually happened. Angel's entire plan was a fraud, because Angel clearly hadn't understood how completely ineffectual it would be. So instead of dying but knowing they'd made lives safer, they get to live alongside the dead and suffering citizens of the city sent to a hell dimension *because* of them.

NileQT87

22-12-07, 02:57 AM

they all took the deal BEFORE the connor mind-wipe. that didn't kick in until the last few minutes of the episode. they had all their memories when they walked to the limo and took the entire tour.

wesley agreed to the final stand with COMPLETE knowledge of connor. spike didn't even have any memories of connor to wipe. illyria had all of fred's memories returned to her. the only ones that are still in the blank about connor are lorne and gunn.

and yes, there was a deal for gunn or any of them. w&h already knew that angel would take it to save connor. but beyond that, if angel hadn't, w&h still wanted his group--it takes people away from angel. they certainly were after wesley for YEARS. lilah spent the end of season 3 and season 4 trying to bribe wesley and get him to join.

in fact, the circle of the black thorn were scared of both angel and wesley. they thought gunn had promise to be on their side, but angel and wesley could be problems for them. ...i bet this is going to come to fruition.

gunn's tragedy is that he doesn't understand that the very thing he is currently doing is working on the destruction of humanity and doing it with no regret. he isn't gunn, he's the thing that killed gunn (remember that little speech about thinking there was still something left of jesse?). the real gunn is completely not present anymore. the demon is just using gunn's memories and beliefs to create a demon who does the same things a vampire does, but thinks its a good guy and that his side is right. he's acting on evil, but thinks he's a white hat.

w&h was all about corrupting each and every member of angel's team. you want to hurt angel, you hurt those around him. w&h's whole plan was to corrupt and take away all of angel's friends... even better if its their own free will that corrupts them. their whole thing is letting humanity do all the work for them with a few soft nudges.

connor and angel are on the right side here. i'll put a bet on it. and i bet wesley is a good guy still trapped between having to play courier/liaison from the white room, but really wanting to go with angel (as seen by his wish to tag along on angel's rounds)... really wanting to help him... but being trapped in his incorporeal form (which i bet was w&h's way of keeping him captive and unable to physically rebel). we know that the circle is probably as scared of wesley as they are of angel.

KingofCretins

22-12-07, 03:09 AM

Only Gunn had expressed a clear intent to join before Angel showed up and announced his decision. At that point, Wesley was weighing it and Fred still sounded like she thought it was a bad idea.

4.22 "Home" transcript, spoilered for length --

GUNN
I'm doing this. Hope it's not just me, but if it is, that's all right, too.

WESLEY
As much as it pains me to admit it, there's probably a great deal we could accomplish with the resources available here.

FRED
(looks at Wesley) I can't believe it. Are—are you saying we should take the deal?

ANGEL
I already took it.

FRED
Angel, what—what?

WESLEY
You took the deal?

ANGEL
Executive decision.

WESLEY
I didn't think you'd—

LILAH
Know a silver platter when he's handed one? I'm impressed with the lot of you. Team Angel, all growed up.

ANGEL
(whispers) Is it taken care of?

LILAH
Cordelia's safe and sound, probably getting a manicure and a blow dry as we speak.

FRED
You found Cordy? And she's—

LILAH
Still in a coma. But hey, it doesn't mean she can't look her best. (to Angel) She'll receive the finest care, medical and metaphysical. If there is a way to get her back, we'll find it.

ANGEL
Good. (whispers) Just one more piece of business. I got to see him.

LILAH
I'm sorry, Angel, but that wasn't part of the deal.

ANGEL
Value of compromise. Remember, Lilah? I need to see him.

LILAH
You're the boss. (hands Angel the file and amulet) There'll be a limo waiting outside. It'll take you to see Connor.

ANGEL
(softly) Thank you. (walks out the door)

FRED
(watches Angel leave) Who's Connor?

From that, Gunn was a "yes", Wes was on the fence, and Fred was "no". Lorne was on the bandwagon. So, at best, it was a 3-1 vote with one abstention (Wesley). As soon as Fred asks who Connor is, though, she and Wesley are no longer *capable* of an informed choice because they no longer have full possession of their knowledge of Angel and all of their history.

There's a possible supposition that the offers were independent, but it's not a textual one. Without confirmation either way, I'm inclined to think that there's no deal without the bona fide champion on board.

Connor and his people are the only ones I feel really strong about right now. Gunn has gone mad as well as vampire, Spike has given up, and Angel still seems to be thinking only in big moves again, the way he always is when he gets himself and others in trouble. Although taking out Burge's son and saving those people was a good step. But, right now, Connor is the only one who really seems to have the mission, which is so interesting since, in "Deep Down", it was Connor that Angel wasn't sure ever would.

NileQT87

22-12-07, 03:32 AM

they all wanted to take the deal, but fred was speaking of the fact that she's afraid that she wants to take the deal. wesley is speaking from the fact that after over a year of being begged to join, he's actually considering it. fred really did want that science lab. wesley really did think like angel that they could attempt to get w&h from the belly of the beast--and was willing to risk getting swallowed.

angel and wesley came in with pretty much the same mindset--and the same ability to give up their lives in a heartbeat just to try (whereas fred would have less of a want to give away her life as quickly and meaninglessly as angel and wesley would be willing to do). angel just got bumped in from being on the fence because of connor. but, even then, he saw the chance to get closer to the source--get closer to what w&h's plans really were. wesley and angel definitely had infiltration on their mind (shown by how wesley went right past the template books and went looking for the source of the records).

and gunn was a total yes (remember, he was offered brains--the thing that he felt he lost fred over--they had to keep going to his rival, wesley, to save fred in "the price"--and everybody knew it wasn't gunn who had the brains to figure out the alcohol thing... and then, when fred went to wesley, not him, to kill professor siedel.). also note his reaction to when he thought they wanted him for security. when they offered brains, he was desperate for it.

lorne was always in the gray about which side he worked for. he didn't differentiate between the little people, either side (and served humans and baby-killing monsters alike). in fact, this is the crux of angel's ants speech. lorne is after his own inner peaceful state, with a preference for good. he doesn't care who gives him work for his specialties (entertainment and empath abilities), as long as he is not put in direct responsibility for people getting hurt (hence, why he wanted out of his vegas gig). but... he still reads futures, gives advice and entertains for good and evil alike.

KingofCretins

22-12-07, 03:48 AM

they all wanted to take the deal, but fred was speaking of the fact that she's afraid that she wants to take the deal.

How does that follow from "I can't believe it. Are—are you saying we should take the deal?"

angel and wesley came in with pretty much the same mindset--and the same ability to give up their lives in a heartbeat just to try (whereas fred would have less of a want to give away her life as quickly and meaninglessly as angel and wesley would be willing to do). angel just got bumped in from being on the fence because of connor. but, even then, he saw the chance to get closer to the source--get closer to what w&h's plans really were. wesley and angel definitely had infiltration on their mind (shown by how wesley went right past the template books and went looking for the source of the records).

Wesley also came in with a mindset that told him, presumably, that he and Angel were tight, years long trusting allies -- a mindset engineered for him.

I would have hoped Angel would be brighter than to fixate on "getting close to the source" and all that stuff that nearly brought him down completely in Season 2. I mean, isn't that exactly what he was trying to do in "Reprise", to go to war directly with the Senior Partners? I also find it worth noting that, as it turned out, they never figured out what the Senior Partners plans were, they were eventually simply *told*, in "Power Play".

Gunn doesn't get the offer for 'brains' until "Conviction" -- all he was shown was power. Influence, a seat at the table.

NileQT87

22-12-07, 03:58 AM

then how do you explain why he went from thinking he was going to the security guard center to suddenly walking very tall. he didn't get the brain-boost until "conviction" (which was 20 days later), but he was told what he would be given in "home"--that is very clear. otherwise, he wouldn't have gone from grimacing at the security center to walking out of that elevator tall and proud after being told by the panther what the plans for him were.

and fred was very excited by the science lab. and she clearly trusts knox very quickly, despite any doubts that the humans (her) would be the first to get corrupted.

look how quickly fred trusts knox and how wesley never trusts sirk. however, wesley does trust lilah some (and even loves her in a way). in fact, he even expresses that he trusts lilah in season 4--and somewhere in his mind he still thinks he can save her. he trusts lilah more than angel does.

fred's statement was the same thing she had expressed when wesley, gunn and her were all standing in front of the limo and wesley making the comment about "we three" and all the humans being easiest to corrupt. she's worried that the humans are the easiest of them to corrupt... which is why she looks to angel to be a non-human opinion. wesley expresses the same thing, but thinks a lot more like angel and wants to also look for the source.

KingofCretins

22-12-07, 04:05 AM

then how do you explain why he went from thinking he was going to the security guard center to suddenly walking very tall. he didn't get the brain-boost until "conviction" (which was 20 days later), but he was told what he would be given in "home"--that is very clear. otherwise, he wouldn't have gone from grimacing at the security center to walking out of that elevator tall and proud.

I explain it as him being shown the keys to power in the form of the conduit. He sure didn't seem to have a clue what was going on in "Conviction" when it was time for it to happen, so how likely is it he'd known for three weeks? At best, I'd say Eve told him in "Conviction" when she gave him the doctor's address.

fred's statement was the same thing she had expressed when wesley, gunn and her were all standing in front of the limo and wesley making the comment about "we three" and all the humans being easiest to corrupt. she's worried that the humans are the easiest of them to corrupt... which is why she looks to angel to be a non-human opinion. wesley expresses the same thing, but thinks a lot more like angel and wants to also look for the source.

I still don't see how that makes her statement -- apparent disbelief that Wesley was considering it -- evidence that she was a "yes" vote.

NileQT87

22-12-07, 04:18 AM

Angel: You want to get in that limo when it gets here, that's up to you. It’s not a decision I can make for you. For any of you. But know this: before the ride's even over, before you even cross through their doors, you'll be corrupted.

they got in that limo knowing that they would take the deal. the rest of the doubt was just making themselves feel less bad about the fact that they had already decided.

Wesley: I don't know how long it's been here. Since before I arrived.
Fred: I thought I'd be the only one.
Wesley: And I thought for sure I wouldn’t be. Although I wasn't expecting it to be you.
Fred: I just figured… well, if they are up to something…
Gunn: We should know what it is. I get that.
Wesley: Well… we three.
Gunn: Looks like.
Wesley: What are the odds the humans would be the most corruptible?
Fred: Maybe we should just go back inside. What if Angel's right?
Gunn: Yeah, and what if he's not? All we're going to do is take the tour.
Wesley: Go into this with our eyes open and our wits about us, there shouldn't be any...
Angel: Surprises? What the hell.

here you have all their inner dialog (which proves they would have done it without angel). they all wanted the deal, but were weary of their own instincts telling them to. the rest was the little w&h tricks to put icing on the deal for each of them. basically, giving each one of them what they want. it's the classic charlie and the chocolate factory scenario... they are corrupted by their wants when everything else is being their inner willy wonkas telling them not to do it... but they can't resist. lilah even calls angel "charlie". the rest are an example of the devil showing them pretty things. gunn was veruca (the "i want"s) and fred was violet (curious).

remember what wesley said about what killed fred? "she was just curious."

Ojuice5001

22-12-07, 08:28 AM

Wesley's story has confirmed a theory that I have always held to: that the members of the Fang Gang are subject to the same deal as Lilah. The "standard perpetuity clause" that says they have to keep on working for Wolfram and Hart in their afterlife. Fred and Gunn have both died an abnormal death, and so that wasn't their fate, but Wesley and probably Lorne have indeed sold their souls.

Though we can't conclude from this that Angel himself has this same perpetuity clause. That theory is more doubtful, and it's easy to think of reasons why this would not be the case.

I still don't buy for a second that there was an offer for Gunn to accept that wasn't conditioned on Angel taking the deal. I honestly laughed while watching the episode when it aired, that Gunn assumed so.

But KingofCretins, he started out assuming the opposite. Gunn assumed that the Senior Partners were interested in Angel first and foremost, and his guide told him that he was more important than he gave himself credit for:

LACEY: Why do you assume Angel is our priority?

GUNN: You telling me he isn't?

LACEY: A priority. Though you each possess gifts we feel would be useful.

GUNN: Well, I see what the others got, Fred's big brain, Wes' training, Lorne's mind-reading thing. Guess I just don't know what you guys expect me to do around... (sees the office labeled SECURITY) here. Though I think maybe I'm starting to figure it out. Yeah, bet I'd look real smart in one of them blazers.

LACEY: Oh, I'm sure you would, but we have much grander plans for you, Mr. Gunn.

GUNN: (flattered) You do? Grander?

Granted that her truthfulness is just as suspect as anyone else at Wolfram and Hart. (Also, she may not speak for the Senior Partners, since we now know that the ones who really found him useful were Knox and Sparrow's faction. It may be that she was a part of that faction.) Still, if we take her claim at face value, Gunn was a priority in his own right, and so it makes sense that he would have gotten a deal even without Angel.

Similarly, remember that Wesley had already been getting recruitment offers as early as Season Three.

Julian

22-12-07, 08:46 AM

Okay, I have to say something here.

Let’s keep all this in perspective. Angel joined W&H to save Connor and NOT TO CHANGE THE SYSTEM FROM WITHIN, as some people would like to keep stating. Angel’s reason: change the system from within is just a rationalization and a deflection from his selfish/selfless motive of saving his son. I’m not going to say that it was the right decision, but it was a black and white decision influenced by gray intentions and emotions.

So he wanted to save his son. It was an individual action with individual motives. He had no intention of involving the team (though they weren’t spared from the consequences). I believe that to be true. Wesley, Gunn and Cordy have proven in the past (Season 2) that they were completely capable of making decisions that were contrary to Angel’s

King’s argument that W&H would not accept the team without Angel is just plain conjecture, and Nile has stated all my arguments against it.

As for Spike and Gunn putting the blame on Angel’s shoulder’s I think that is just full of crap.

I want to put it in this context. There is a war going on. Soldiers are asked to fight for their country. They join up. They enlist. Do they believe in the war? Do they think that they are fighting for the right thing? Do they agree with the strategy? Do they believe in what they are trying to win?

Opinions will vary and so will agendas, but the very fact that they joined up shows that they are willing to be a part of that war. Soldiers don’t ask to be spared from death nor are they supposed to demand victory from their generals. A lot of generals have even told their soldiers they were doomed (The Japanese during World War 2, for example), but the soldiers kept faith. They don’t ask what the cost is. They joined up to fight for a cause. The how may be in question, but the motives are always similar.

The only obligation the General has to his men is to give them the truth about why they are fighting. I think Angel made that pretty clear. Outcome and strategy, unfortunately, are always flawed and there are no guarantees in war.

Unfortunately, they lost the war. And now the soldiers (Gunn and Spike) are saying: “We were just following order” to absolve of themselves of failure. Well you know what? That line has been used over and over again by people who want to find a quick excuse.

His inability to achieve victory does not make him wrong or evil. It makes him human. Tons of generals all throughout history have fought losing battles… they did so to serve a cause. And Angel kept true to that cause in the best way he knew how. He tried to fight the war the best way he knew how. Those I think were his only obligations to his team.

Spike and Gunn were free to walk away and tell Angel to take care of his own mess. If Spike and Gunn didn’t want to fight, They were free to walk away.

Now Angel’s motives during NFA. I see angel as a revolutionary. Tear down the entire system because you can’t fix it bit by bit. There will always be casualties but it’s the only way. Tragic as it may be, it was the way to go.

Ultimately, the moral dilemma comes down to this: Is it better to live on your knees or die on your feet?

Wolfram and Hart were all powerful. Any form of little by little approach would have been compromise in the part of Angel. The entirety of S5 was the liberal approach: Fix the system by bits and pieces. Was it successful? Well, it lead to NFA, the revolution. So no.

Is the collateral damage and the loss in civilian life a greater evil than standing aside and allowing a great evil to perpetuate itself if you know you had a chance, a way to defeat it? Angel was given an idea on how to strike a crushing blow to W&H. Its chances of success were ambiguous. Should he have ignored that chance? Should he have ignored the power’s message for something more concrete and more sure of success?

I don’t want to sound like a war monger but ignoring the chance to right a wrong just because the outcome is unsure, the price too high (that’s blackmail IMO) or the decision is unpopular smack of cowardice.

Are revolutions always wrong? Is the path of the liberal always right? There are no straight answers IMO. Regardless of your answer, however, the objective is always to make a better world – and that is what Angel wanted: A better world.

Angel did only what he believed to be true at the time. The powers gave him the vision and he acted in the best way he believed in, with the best intentions.

Was Angel right in NFA? I’m not going to say yes or no, but I will say that he was being Angel, a guy trying to do the right thing, regardless of whether it’s sure of success or not, because he believes in the possibility of better world and because he believes it was the right thing to do. And he acted on it as a good person would in his situation

By the way, thanks for transcripts King.

NileQT87

22-12-07, 09:48 AM

btw... if anyone cares... the location with all the broads IS hugh hefner's playboy mansion... with the water fountain now having blood in it.

http://trianglereport.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/playboy_mansion.jpg

KingofCretins

22-12-07, 03:36 PM

Now Angel’s motives during NFA. I see angel as a revolutionary. Tear down the entire system because you can’t fix it bit by bit. There will always be casualties but it’s the only way. Tragic as it may be, it was the way to go.

Ultimately, the moral dilemma comes down to this: Is it better to live on your knees or die on your feet?

Angel's plan turned out to harm the Senior Partners about as much as Giles harmed Toth when he hit him with the fertility statue. It did not accomplish any of the goals for which it was devised. There's no evidence that it in any way loosened the Senior Partners grip on their evil plans for the world, and it didn't spring Angel and his people from W&H -- in fact, it got 10 million people thrown into a hell dimension with them. Who knows how many of those have been killed.

The plan that Spike described as burning down the house while they were standing in it didn't apparently do much more than scorch some of the wood.

Angel himself now apparently regards this as a mistake; he hasn't said anything that even implies that he doesn't wish they'd come up with something else.

btw... if anyone cares... the location with all the broads IS hugh hefner's playboy mansion... with the water fountain now having blood in it.

Heh... I thought I recognized that.

Julian

22-12-07, 04:12 PM

Angel's plan turned out to harm the Senior Partners about as much as Giles harmed Toth when he hit him with the fertility statue. It did not accomplish any of the goals for which it was devised. There's no evidence that it in any way loosened the Senior Partners grip on their evil plans for the world, and it didn't spring Angel and his people from W&H -- in fact, it got 10 million people thrown into a hell dimension with them. Who knows how many of those have been killed.

Are you saying that Angel sent LA to hell? Because that would be non sequitor. Wolfram and Hart sent LA to hell. Not Angel. He struck a blow against them and they struck back by bringing down everything he cared about - along with a lot of people.

Also, Angel did not know that about the outcome of his plan. He was not sure if it would succceed or not. All he knew that it would set in motion something big that could very well do a lot of good. Should he have given up that chance because of the potential problems it would cause?

Should Angel stop fighting Wolfram and Hart because they might kill people?

It goes back to the analogy of a freedom fighter or revolutionary fighting a large powerful super structure. The revolutionary strikes at the superstructure and the latter strikes back by killing innocent people in the hope that it would demoralise the revolutionary. There are a lot of precedents like this throughout history.

Again, Angel did not send LA to hell. So it doesn't really make any sense to blame him for that. Yes, he fought Wolfram and Hart. Yes, he was willing to sacrifice his team (who all made up their own minds on the matter). But you can't say that he sent LA.

This can also be applied to the argument about Jasmine. Froma utilitarian standpoint, Jasmine was a good choice because she saved millions by devouring thousands. She took away freewill, sure but she saved lives. Wolfram and Hart did the same thing to acertain extent, they perpetuated a system of 'controlled evil' that cost a few lives. If you fight that system you would break the balance and unleash the chaos that is now After the Fall.

Is it right to stand by and let evil happen because fighting it will cause the evil to strike back and hurt a lot more people than when it is left to its own devices?

IMO - No.

KingofCretins

22-12-07, 04:50 PM

Are you saying that Angel sent LA to hell? Because that would be non sequitor. Wolfram and Hart sent LA to hell. Not Angel. He struck a blow against them and they struck back by bringing down everything he cared about - along with a lot of people.

I'm not saying Angel did it. I will say he is a 'but for' cause; was LA getting sent to hell that night without Angel's reckless act? Nah.

I think it would be more accurate to say he kicked their shin and the ripped his arms off. There was no proportionality. I get the impression they were about as 'harmed' by him killing the Circle as Illyria was by Wes shooting Knox.

Should Angel stop fighting Wolfram and Hart because they might kill people?

It goes back to the analogy of a freedom fighter or revolutionary fighting a large powerful super structure. The revolutionary strikes at the superstructure and the latter strikes back by killing innocent people in the hope that it would demoralise the revolutionary. There are a lot of precedents like this throughout history.

It's not what heroes do. Angel acted no differently at all than he did during the stretch of Season 2 when he forgot what it meant to be a hero. He didn't need to stop fighting them, he needed to stop *doing what they wanted him to do*. They wanted him in that office. He never once managed to do anything from that office that was more than basically an annoyance to them. The real fight is day to day, it's girls in alleys. That's what he was doing that W&H *didn't* like. He was living as though the world were what it should be to show it what it can be.

Is it right to stand by and let evil happen because fighting it will cause the evil to strike back and hurt a lot more people than when it is left to its own devices?

False choice, big time. He had a way of fighting them that wasn't so reckless and self-congratulatory. He was doing it for years. The Slayers are still doing it.

bishopcruz

22-12-07, 04:54 PM

Angel's plan turned out to harm the Senior Partners about as much as Giles harmed Toth when he hit him with the fertility statue. It did not accomplish any of the goals for which it was devised. There's no evidence that it in any way loosened the Senior Partners grip on their evil plans for the world, and it didn't spring Angel and his people from W&H -- in fact, it got 10 million people thrown into a hell dimension with them. Who knows how many of those have been killed.

Sure it did, it took out the circle of the Black Thorn who were the power players on earth, and looking around hell, probably the most competent of the major demons we have seen. The archduke commanded armies, probably most of the demons trying to currently grab power in Hell-A in one way the extra-dimensional demon population seems to be killing itself off. But I digress....

To be fair to Angel, there is NO WAY that he could have possibly imagined LA being sent to hell, or his actions kicking off something like this. W&H has never, in the history of the series, and likely the world, taken this active a hand in the physical world. Transporting L.A. to Hell is incredibly extreme for an organization known for its subtlety. Killing the Black Thorn definitely hurt the SP.

Not to mention that Angel did get the whole idea to whack the Black Thorn in a vision from the PTB. It's not like he one day decided that he didn't like the cut of their gib or anything like that. The PTB showed him where to strike, and where W&H's power base was in our dimension.

Yes, things turned out poorly, and it was a mistake to have joined W&H in the first place, but it was a mistake that his allies all chose together. The consequences were unfortunate, but I'd put the blame where it really belongs, on W&H. Angel and the gang may feel differently, it's understandable, and probably the point. W&H wants to make sure that Angel realizes that they own him completely, and it is working so far. Looks like he might snap out of it soon though. We'll see.

KingofCretins

22-12-07, 04:58 PM

Not to mention that Angel did get the whole idea to whack the Black Thorn in a vision from the PTB. It's not like he one day decided that he didn't like the cut of their gib or anything like that. The PTB showed him where to strike, and where W&H's power base was in our dimension.

We have another thread going on this forum discussing the reasonable probability that Angel just misunderstood the vision. Looking at the unmitigated disaster that's resulted, it seems pretty likely that the point of the vision was just to warn Angel that he was in the wrong place, doing the wrong thing, and to, y'know, not do that. He has a history of misconstruing visions.

bishopcruz

22-12-07, 05:13 PM

We have another thread going on this forum discussing the reasonable probability that Angel just misunderstood the vision. Looking at the unmitigated disaster that's resulted, it seems pretty likely that the point of the vision was just to warn Angel that he was in the wrong place, doing the wrong thing, and to, y'know, not do that. He has a history of misconstruing visions.

Interesting take, though it presumes that he did misconstrue the vision. The times it has occurred, which are honestly quite a lot less than times they have gotten it right, we have had a bunch of contextual evidence that yes, he was making a major boo-boo. NFA didn't have that.

If the point of the vision was to get the hell out of dodge, the focus would likely have been different. But as this is getting into the purview of the other thread I'll leave it at this for now.

ciderdrinker

23-12-07, 09:56 AM

Coming into this a bit late and only the transcripts to go by but I'm a little confused by the talk of Angel not knowing what W&H would do when he took a stand against them.

In S2 Angel quite clearly learnt the all encompassing power of W&H - he soon backed down when he had his chat with Holland Manners in the elevator. He knew that in taking over W&H, and must've realised that once he was in they certainly wouldn't let them just leave.

(Even Gunn mentions it in "You're Welcome" :-

Gunn: I'd say we've all had a bellyful. Any thought about what would happen to us if we tried to say bye-bye? The ramifications, I mean. You think the senior partners are just gonna let us breeze on out the front door?
Fred: You're saying we're trapped here?
Gunn: I'm saying we knew what we were getting into when we signed up for this gig. Let's not start pretending that this was some lease with an option to buy.)

Once in and realising that he couldn't change it from within, he couldn't, you know, just stop doing what W&H wanted, because that would be allowing them to have free-reign over what happened to him (kill him, enslave him, make him incorporeal - whatever they wanted really) and then they would really win. He decides that there is no way out except to go down fighting, and although this is a risky course of action for others, he also knows that if he can make the Senior Partners see that something as lowly an ensouled vampire can affect their business, then it will loosen their total grip, even by a tiny bit. It's the thin end of the wedge. Once others fighting evil know that Angel has struck out at them, it would give them more incentive to fight back a bit themselves - the revolutionary concept that was talked about earlier. Surely, everyone knows that things have to get a lot worse before things get better,

Angel was entirely aware what would happen:-

Angel: We do this, the senior partners will rain their full wrath. They'll make an example of us. I'm talking full-on hell, not the basic fire-and-brimstone kind we're used to.

The others knew too. Angel made it clear before asking their assistance. Spike and Gunn blaming him is totally to be expected - of course Spike would, he has to use every opportunity to get a dig in, he wouldn't be Spike otherwise (remember the fabulous "Can I deny you 3 times?" line!) and Gunn has been turned into the thing he most despised, so a little bit of bad feeling wouldn't exactly be a strange thing to expect. The fact that Wes and Connor don't seem to blame him shows that they have taken responsibility for their own part in it. So little of Illyria to discuss, but I would think it unlikely she blamed him as well - I'd take a guess that being a possible Lord and having an ensouled vampire as a pet, would be right up Illyria's alley!

(Sidenote: How much am I loving this comic! So much more excited about it than the Buffy one! Also, thank for the transcript KofC, I wouldn't have seen this until after Xmas otherwise!!)

vampmogs

23-12-07, 10:45 AM

I still don't buy for a second that there was an offer for Gunn to accept that wasn't conditioned on Angel taking the deal. I honestly laughed while watching the episode when it aired, that Gunn assumed so.

Someone has already supplied the necessary quote to demonstrate that whilst Angel was their main goal here, they had specific plans and interests into each and every one of them. The fact they offered Wes a job at the end of s3 and wanted all of the group, not just Angel, to be corrupted I'd say they would have taken anyone who wanted it. I don't see why they'd rather turn all of them away because Angel won't join instead of corrupting as many people they have against them as they are able to. It doesn't make sense to loose all of them (some of whom have already been offered a job in the past) because Angel won't sign off on the deal.

Any informed decision by the gang was voided by the mind-screw they got by Angel's deal. Gunn was the only one who articulated anything but doubt and worry when Angel announced his decision, and then a moment later it's "who's Connor?". Since they didn't *know* Angel fully anymore as of that moment, their judgment on joining him or not is permanently suspect. As far as we know, only Wesley and Connor actually ever got their memories back.

I don't understand why the memory wipe would have any effect on them signing Wolfram and Hart?

I don't think you're realizing the problem -- they signed up to trade their own lives for this big moment of freedom for the world, leaving it a better place, with greater hope of throwing off the Senior Partners manipulation. None of that actually happened.

They said this "one brief shiny moment" which was when they killed the circle and temporarily shook the hold the partners had on this world. They never expected it to be a big lasting thing, Angel articulates himself very clearly when he says "brief moment."

Angel's entire plan was a fraud, because Angel clearly hadn't understood how completely ineffectual it would be. So instead of dying but knowing they'd made lives safer, they get to live alongside the dead and suffering citizens of the city sent to a hell dimension *because* of them.

So then why blame it all on Angel? Angel like the others was clueless, regardless they all believed in what they were doing and made that decision as a team. And there isn't no I in team, they did this *together.*

There's a possible supposition that the offers were independent, but it's not a textual one. Without confirmation either way, I'm inclined to think that there's no deal without the bona fide champion on board.

In the text they've offered one of the characters a job in the past, in the text Lilah states they've tried to corrupt or kill each and every one of them at some point thus demonstrating they care more about just Angel, and in the text Gunn's guide tells him they have big plans for all of them not just Angel.

I think Ciderdrinker has done a fine job in demonstrating that Angel was open and honest with all of them about what they were getting into and the repercussions of their actions. Right now I'm more interested in how they are dealing with what they did and what they are doing about it. I'd put Connor and Angel up there as the only people who I can see doing any good whatsoever. I don't believe we've seen enough of Wes to determine what connection he has to the Senior Partners, Gunn's "I'm better than the vampire with a soul" logic doesn't represent our earth logic after he's just snacked on a group of innocent women, and Spike's having a grand old time putting all the blame on Angel and telling stories about how great a hero he is instead of helping innocents. I think it’d be weird if we keep focusing on the past and not living in the present and right now basically the whole gang aren’t acting very hero-esque.

KingofCretins

23-12-07, 01:38 PM

I don't understand why the memory wipe would have any effect on them signing Wolfram and Hart?

You don't think being robbed of a significant part of their history with Angel and with each other affects their ability to decide whether they'll be joining him on this adventure?

They said this "one brief shiny moment" which was when they killed the circle and temporarily shook the hold the partners had on this world. They never expected it to be a big lasting thing, Angel articulates himself very clearly when he says "brief moment."

Yeah... I was trying to give this idiotic plan more credit than it actually deserved. They *did* know going in that it wouldn't be anything more than a symbolic gesture. I'm sure 10 million people stuck in a hell dimension are very proud of them and completely embrace the logic and purpose of that plan.

I really was reasonably okay with the logical flaws in this plan for a while. I figured that they demon army was after them, they'd survive or they wouldn't, but they'd have at least 'sent up a flare', so to speak, and maybe let the other good guys, namely the Slayers, know where to start looking for the big threat. It wasn't until I found out that LA was sent to hell that the cost in human life *grotesquely* outweighed the completely theoretical benefits to that plan.

Phoenix

24-12-07, 07:14 AM

I still havent got this issue yet. Dont think I'll have it for a couple more weeks, or I can hopefully get it as soon as the new Buffy issue comes out. It seems like a great issue, and while reading the transcript is good, it doesnt really have the same effect as the real thing. When does issue 3 come out?

vampmogs

24-12-07, 10:25 AM

You don't think being robbed of a significant part of their history with Angel and with each other affects their ability to decide whether they'll be joining him on this adventure?

Not really sure. Because at the end of the day the whole Connor thing IMO would only effect people's trust towards Wesley rather than Angel. He is the one that "betrayed" them in their view, the one Angel had trust issues with. Other than that I don't think the Connor mind wipe greatly influenced their lives in anymore way than Dawn did to the Scoobies. They were still the same people, still viewed the world in the same way. And basically the same situations other than Wes' betrayal still happened, we at least know by their memory Angel still fought Sahjhan. The memory of Connor IMO wouldn't effect their opinion of Angel whatsoever or how they feel about joining Wolfram and Hart, I don't believe Connor's influence would effect them either way on the matter.

Yeah... I was trying to give this idiotic plan more credit than it actually deserved. They *did* know going in that it wouldn't be anything more than a symbolic gesture. I'm sure 10 million people stuck in a hell dimension are very proud of them and completely embrace the logic and purpose of that plan.

My point wasn't to support the plan more to show that as a team they all knew exactly what they were getting into. Wether you agree with Angel's plan or not he did make it very clear what it entailed, including the repercussions of said plan. Spike is just trying to put the blame on someone else, as is Gunn, they both knew exactly what they were getting into and like Angel believed in what they were doing.

sueworld

24-12-07, 02:49 PM

and Spike's having a grand old time putting all the blame on Angel and telling stories about how great a hero he is instead of helping innocents. I think it’d be weird if we keep focusing on the past and not living in the present and right now basically the whole gang aren’t acting very hero-esque.

I'm still not 100% certain that we're seeing the whole picture here myself. I'm getting weird vibes form Spikes set up, and that combined with the fact that Brian has repeatedly said that it's not all it appears, makes me think we've yet to see the full picture.

vampmogs

25-12-07, 03:06 AM

I'm still not 100% certain that we're seeing the whole picture here myself. I'm getting weird vibes form Spikes set up, and that combined with the fact that Brian has repeatedly said that it's not all it appears, makes me think we've yet to see the full picture.

I think there is room for more to come about why Spike is in this paradise, as for example perhaps being held there as prisoner. But his attitude towards Angel and how he is bragging about being a hero to Spider and the rest of the girls seems very in character for me, and I believe he is wrong to not be taking responsbility. But yeah there could be more as to why he is there for sure.

sueworld

25-12-07, 03:12 AM

Well apparently we'll know in issue 3 one way or another.

I suspect that Spike's 'bragging' is him being sarcastic as well as bitter about his current situation, but we'll see.

vampmogs

25-12-07, 04:41 AM

Well apparently we'll know in issue 3 one way or another.

I suspect that Spike's 'bragging' is him being sarcastic as well as bitter about his current situation, but we'll see.

Perhaps, it could most certainly be one layer to the situation. However, it just fits with his character IMO for him to try and renounce all responsibility he has for making LA what it is, by trying to allude to everyone he is better than he actually is. Kind of like trying your hardest to make yourself something the very opposite of what you’ve become. I also didn’t enjoy his remark by trying it Angels’ way of helping the helpless but being tired of it. There better be a good reason for that.

sueworld

25-12-07, 05:12 AM

Well Spike certainly did have his part to play in all this, but at the end of the day the architect of this plan was Angel was it not.

vampmogs

26-12-07, 07:40 AM

Well Spike certainly did have his part to play in all this, but at the end of the day the architect of this plan was Angel was it not.

It was, and Angel has responsibility just like the others. But Angel made it very clear what his plan entailed and the repercussions of that. He states that only for a "brief" moment they'd be the heroic ones, that the senior partners would reign down "hell" on them and that most of them wouldn't even be there when the dust clears. He states explicitly that he "can't do this without them" and asks if it is something they "believe is worth fighting for."

So not only do we have Angel hold nothing back about the repercussions of their actions, he also makes it clear that without Spike's involvement and everyone else he couldn't even go ahead with his plan, that the likelihood was they wouldn't make it through this, and that if they sign on it is because they truly believe in what they were doing.

After all that nor Spike or anyone else has the right to point the finger at Angel, he must have believed in what they were doing, knew the consequences. Which is why it bugged me so much to have him snarky about Gunn and Wes when Angel made it clear to all of them, in particular Spike in one scene that they weren't going to make it through this.

In many respects Angel was more forthcoming about this to them all then Buffy was in ‘The Gift’ when she states publicly she isn’t loosing anyone but then tells Spike in private they weren’t all going to make it. Would this make her responsible for all anyone who died cause it was her plan? Of course not, the Scoobies believed in what they were doing and chose to fight. Same can be said for Angel’s plan.

Kold

26-12-07, 01:22 PM

ciderdrinker

01-01-08, 09:30 PM

Something is bothering me and hasn't been explained as yet.

If the sun and the moon are out at the same time and it's affecting Nina, what is the effect on Angel? He can't walk about in the sun, but can he if the moon's up as well? In this episode we see him driving his car with the top down and it appears to be daytime.

So what is going on?

stormwreath

02-01-08, 01:12 AM

If the sun and the moon are out at the same time and it's affecting Nina, what is the effect on Angel? He can't walk about in the sun, but can he if the moon's up as well? In this episode we see him driving his car with the top down and it appears to be daytime.Every time Angel has gone to another dimension, that I recall, the sun hasn't burned him. Pylea, the suburban W&H holding dimension, Jasmine's former realm... no problems in any of them. I think it's only and specifically the Sun here on Earth that harms vampires.

Therefore, this is evidence that LA has been sent to a Hell dimension, rather than that Hell has come to LA...

NileQT87

02-01-08, 08:02 AM

the wishverse is another dimension with harmful-to-vampires sun. i think it has to do with specific rules in different dimensions. some are very different to earth and some are identical except for a single change in the timeline or lacking something specific (like shrimp).

the "hell" dimensions seem to be where vampire rules are the most drastically different. and nina is a case where the sun and moon are out at the same time (i'm thinking our story starts during a 3-day full moon werewolf cycle--either that or this hell dimension has nothing but full moons).

alexa

02-01-08, 11:34 AM

Wow liking the comic a lot more now. Although I enjoyed it so much it ended way too fast. Love that we got to see Spike.. and Illyria for 2 seconds. Glad they're not going down the 'Connor is an ungrateful jerk' road again, love his character, and could really hear his voice. And I'm really enjoying George.. he's kinda sweet.
Not sure what to make of Gunn yet, I don't know if Angel would go and try to tame the dragon while he's being killed. Is Gunn trying to make a way out of Hell-LA? and why?
Is Spike just pissed because he's stuck in another dimension? Don't really get why he wouldn't be working with Angel unless he had a good reason.. or would just rather lay around with naked girls.. yeah ok I get it. But he still looked pissed.

Wolfie Gilmore

02-01-08, 12:15 PM

Just read this issue. Hugh Heffner Spike is just...weird. Not sure what to make of it, whether it's in character or out of character, or what. It's weirdy beardy with a WTF on top.

All in all I don't like this issue as much as the first. It felt a bit "and then Angel went to visit blah and then he went to visit blah and then he drove in his car some more". A bit by-numbers, without the same sense of pace that the last one had.

Having read the transcript first, I'd misunderstood who was speaking in one case - thought that Nina was asking Angel to eat raw meat with her instead of Angel saying the second bit about "so if you'd like to do that some time". I prefer the version where Nina says it, and she's not actually being hostile....just her werewolfy self :)

- Angel and Connor getting closer could be interesting, looking forward to that.

- Bitter vamp-in-denial Gunn is interesting. Like his conversation with the fish.

- "Throw this angrily", good line. :)

-Spike's pj's? No. Just no. Get dressed, old chap. After all that time being stripped by the First, then by that hell dude, you'd tihnk he'd appreciate being able to control his own fashion choices. Or perhaps this is really what Spike feels comfy in when he's not trying to prove himself? Dear God.

-The Illyria surprise was a bit...I dunno. Functional perhaps. Again, a by-numbers bit of plotting (how should we end the issue? I know, let's make someone surprising appear!). Well, not surprising exactly because they set it up. But, someone "wow".

ferdy-m

02-01-08, 01:39 PM

vampmogs

02-01-08, 01:41 PM

Just read this issue. Hugh Heffner Spike is just...weird. Not sure what to make of it, whether it's in character or out of character, or what. It's weirdy beardy with a WTF on top.

I think what he was saying was kind of in character but the situation he was in and the role he was playing was not. But I suspect that may be the point, def weird though.

- "Throw this angrily", good line. :)

Agreed, was fairly awesome :D

Wolfie Gilmore

02-01-08, 02:31 PM

In "Forbidden Planet" the guy behind the desk pointed out that the variant cover (for this issue - is it?) with splendid artwork of Spike surrounded by little demons, isn't as revisting-old-ground-worn-smooth as I was insisting it was.

"We're all surrounded by demons" he said, and told me what he's calling his band (withheld to avoid enfringing future copyright issues, ahem) Hmm, from previous reviews the till encounter might be more satisfying than this issue?

Till encounters in comic shops, often awesome :)

I think what he was saying was kind of in character but the situation he was in and the role he was playing was not. But I suspect that may be the point, def weird though.

Yeah, interesting re role-playing: it certainly is in character for Spike to try on "costumes". It just seems a little random in this case! Though, perhaps he was sick of so much male company after his stint in Wolfram and Hart?

Maggie

02-01-08, 04:24 PM

I think what he was saying was kind of in character but the situation he was in and the role he was playing was not. But I suspect that may be the point, def weird though.

All of it was off. Yes, Spike is a boaster -- but usually his boasts have some basis in reality (he actually did kill two slayers). The whole boasting speech is like a parody of Spike. But, see, I think that's the point. The last bit about LA going to heaven can only be a bitter line -- and once that's clear, it seems clear that the whole speech was bitter. It reeks of performance.

And that would explain the other thing which isn't just 'off' but is hugely OOC, and that's the idea that Spike would just fold up his tent... for months if I have the timing right. The essence of the character is that he doesn't quit. If he was going to go into despair about his situation, Hellbound would have been a good place to do it -- but he still finds a way to fight back. Impossible to believe he wouldn't be fighting back here. So I think it will be revealed at some point that he is fighting back.

And since the speech is off, and the giving up is just totally wrong, I also have to wonder if the being so drunk that Angel could deck him on a single blow is also performance.

Lynch writes Spike too well for his scene in AtF to be anything other than a total mislead on what Spike is really up to.

ciderdrinker

02-01-08, 04:43 PM

Lynch writes Spike too well for his scene in AtF to be anything other than a total mislead on what Spike is really up to.

Agreed, well not about the Lynch bit as I haven't read any of his other Spike stuff, but about it being a total mislead. There has always been a simmering tension between Angel and Spike and there's no reason IMO that Spike wouldn't excuse himself from Angel's company for a bit, but to actively avoid fighting the good fight? I don't think so. I actually think that he's a prisoner of Illyria ("my pet" seems to infer ownership of him), or something else and Illyria is also a prisoner.

No doubt we will understand more further down the line, but this smacks to me of setting up a twist that Spike is really working with Angel - a bit like the eppy in S5 when it looks as if Spike has double-crossed Angel with the necromancer

Wolfie Gilmore

02-01-08, 04:46 PM

All of it was off. Yes, Spike is a boaster -- but usually his boasts have some basis in reality (he actually did kill two slayers). The whole boasting speech is like a parody of Spike. But, see, I think that's the point. The last bit about LA going to heaven can only be a bitter line -- and once that's clear, it seems clear that the whole speech was bitter. It reeks of performance.

I wonder if it's a case of children telling stories in the dark...that is, Spike's not telling the girls that story to impress them as much as to cheer himself up with the various ironies of it? Or perhaps a muddled mix of both impressing the girls and keeping himself amused in hell.

I'm not sure I quite get the whole prisoner bit... is the idea that he was the prisoner of the lord of whatever he's lord of now ( sorry, haven't got the comic to hand), and then the lord got killed and Spike eventually took over? Is that made clear anywhere? Just had a quick read so think I may have missed some of the details.

sueworld

02-01-08, 05:35 PM

Wolfie Gilmore

02-01-08, 06:15 PM

Well to quote Spike:-

"I didn't rise from the ranks of prisoner to prisoner with benefits to protector back to prisoner with benefits to Lord, just to have you come and muck it up."

So god only knows what that all means. Maybe we'll know more in issue three, which is what Brian's said on the IDW forum.

I will wait and hope that all's revealed. The idea of prisoner with benefits, funny. But I want more context!

I'm with a bit a 'miss lead' scenario going on here too. When you consider that the two separate cover artworks for this issue depict the same thing (one with Spike being surrounded/tormented by demons, and the other the 'Spike and his harem') I think something else must be going on and we're far from seeing the whole picture just yet.

Yeah - I'm coming round to that idea too. This is just one piece in the jigsaw.

Still disappointed that Spike wasn't a "boy whore"* though.

*As Kaylee puts it in Firefly.

Maggie

02-01-08, 08:01 PM

Agreed, well not about the Lynch bit as I haven't read any of his other Spike stuff, but about it being a total mislead. There has always been a simmering tension between Angel and Spike and there's no reason IMO that Spike wouldn't excuse himself from Angel's company for a bit, but to actively avoid fighting the good fight? I don't think so. I actually think that he's a prisoner of Illyria ("my pet" seems to infer ownership of him), or something else and Illyria is also a prisoner.

No doubt we will understand more further down the line, but this smacks to me of setting up a twist that Spike is really working with Angel - a bit like the eppy in S5 when it looks as if Spike has double-crossed Angel with the necromancer

I'll be surprised if Spike is really her 'pet'. In the first place, she said she wanted him as a pet in AtS, but that was just her way of looking at things, her way of talking. He was obviously never about to be her pet there. So there's no reason to think the phrase has any other meaning here. In the second place, Lords don't worry about people who irritate their 'pets' and offer to dismember the irritant in order to soothe their 'pets'. On the contrary, it's the way a guard dog would react to something bothering its owner. Maybe I'm wrong. Most people seem to think she's got the upper hand there. But I don't see how to read the offer to shred Angel on Spike's behalf as a gesture of dominance over Spike.

Since I remain quite cross with Angel, I'd rather have Spike be working to carry on the fight on his own -- and in need of persuasion that Angel deserves a spot as leader again. Given that it is Angel's monumental misjudgments as leader that got the