Ats Issue 5 Cover and detail

[vampmogs]

Hey,

This is the cover for Ats Issue 5:

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0712/19/angel5.htm

And here is the synopsis:

Written by Joss Whedon and Brian Lynch, art by Franco Urru, covers by Urru, Photo and Andrew Robinson.

Everything he had was taken away from him. But now, in his darkest hour, Angel is taking it back. The battle lines are drawn, sides are chosen, and Angel takes a stand that will change everything and everyone close to him. The official continuation of the Angel TV series!

Ok so a few things;

It looks like Angel and Spike are fighting. Does this mean Spike is evil? Or since it says Angel's darkest hour that he has gone evil? I don't really know what to think.

[patxshand]

Brian said the following in IDW Forums:

"It's also not what you think, so don't you worry."

He's said many times that he's not going to go the "Spike is evil" route, so we have nothing to worry about. This won't be a repeat of 'is he/is he not' from Season Seven. The cover of this issue is probably, like blurbs often are, misleading.

[sueworld]

Now I know it doesn't look much like either of them facially, but I rather like that cover myself.

Very dynamic. I'm not worried about where Brian's going with all this just yet. I got a tad spoilered, so I knew this was on the cards.

[Phoenix]

Pretty cool cover. Although I dont think it looks anything like Angel or Spike..

Wonder why its upside down though =/ Unless they're obviously falling, or it could symoblise something?

[vampmogs]

I got the impression that they were falling from the image. Must say I'm not a fan of the drawing but as long as the scripts good and the quality inside is that of the first issue and the preview pages of Issue 2 I don't really care.

You were spoiled Sue? Care to share?

[sueworld]

I only knew a wee amount, and I can't really say much more. Brian's not too keen on that sort of thing really. *g*

Suffice to say I'm still trusting Brian's ability to handle the storyline well and 'play fair' with the characters.

[ThePoet's<3]

Like the cover but not the art. Wonder what the other covers look like...?

Lynch I trust but Joss...that's a whole other story...:D

[patxshand]

Like the cover but not the art. Wonder what the other covers look like...?

Lynch I trust but Joss...that's a whole other story...:D


Aw, why don't you trust Joss? He is the one who gave us all these characters. The glorious lump of grey that makes up is brain is the squishy thing that formulated our favorite stories!

[ThePoet's<3]

I don't think he likes Spike as much as I do... :D (and Brian!) So glad to have you with us patxshand!! You'll post other covers if you find them right??

As to the subject of the covers - it's enevitable that Spike and Angel are going to fight over this little "misadventure" they've gotten themselves into - Ollie... I'm thinking he will have to challenge (not necessarily in a fight) there loyalties again. Once burned in Hell-A...

[patxshand]

I don't think he likes Spike as much as I do... :D (and Brian!) So glad to have you with us patxshand!! You'll post other covers if you find them right??


Oh, you know it. :)

I'm a cover lover. A lover of covers.

See?:

http://bp3.blogger.com/_UfVaROcaKV4/R2oPgx1I0CI/AAAAAAAAAK0/BcgrKTEuB_s/s1600/DSCN3242.JPG

*Swoons*

[NileQT87]

i trust joss a lot more than lynch. he still doesn't have the flavor down right... especially angel. nothing angel about lynch's angel at all. on the other hand, both joss and the btvs guest writer have managed to capture joss whedon better than lynch can... sadly, lynch's best line so far has been a quote. his dialog is just awful, his humor is not joss-like at all, the original characters are obnoxious (though betta george is at least kinda sweet instead of just totally annoying like all the demons so far have been)...

and if i see one more vinyl belly-showing bodysuit (that isn't on gwen), any use of spandex whatsoever, breasts that put the italian ceo of w&h to shame (remember her? 'cause that's how big nina and gwen's breasts have gotten--sorry koc, but you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to nina's breast size--her breasts aren't F cups), or breast-waist-hip proportions that are downright INHUMAN--shapes that would have every woman doing a catherine madison broth diet (this also goes for demons that no stuntman could have ever performed)... i'll...

all i can hope for is angel, connor and wesley. at least they seem to understand angel and seem to be taken at least somewhat seriously.

apparently, spike has regressed into a hypocrite (he was the FIRST to raise his hand). i love spike, and i think lynch doesn't understand him at all (not to mention the utter lack of respect and acknowledgment of angel's intelligence that lynch has given him). i seriously think that lynch's bias shows through strong and clear.

it's not a spuffy vs. bangel thing. it's a spike vs. angel issue. lynch clearly favors spike acting like a goofy moron and does his darnest to remove angel's witticism (which turns him into a cardboard he never was), but in the doing of it, hurts spike, too. i would be thinking that the true spike fans (the ones that don't just want to see him as a butt of a joke or naked) would be outraged even worse than the angel fans.

apparently lynch has grudgingly started to admit that some of the things he wanted in angel: after the fall are really falling hard. he's definitely gotten it through his head that urru's art needs a serious overhaul (before, he was just making excuses for it by saying urru was italian--now, he's admitting that they have to do something about it/make something happen sooner because of the oversaturation of butts and breasts and spike's seeming love slave/hefner thing).

and i'm really sick of the change to the demons from guys in latex with either human personalities or almost non-existent background parts (the show) to being all pure demons and absolute morons who talk way too much while our main characters really need that talking space (especially angel). the show had a serious edge that lynch just doesn't get. wesley and connor are the only characters he hasn't focked over so far.

to add to the insult, one of angel's lines in issue #1 (clearly) was given to wesley (it was jolting to think of wesley calling a demon "big boy" or mentioning chasing rainbows... aaaaaack!). angel always insults his enemies in battle. here, lynch makes angel into this cardboardy silent guy and gives his witticisms to other characters. the lack of jossian undercuts by angel is VERY noticeable.

as for koc--i think it would be far more interesting if angel made the RIGHT decision. and i believe he did. angel was always a big thinker. it would certainly bring angel's comment to wesley about how wesley always made the hard decisions others couldn't--it would make that line even more important.

and i want illyria/wesley interaction, not illyria/spike. i want to see illyria's growing corruption by fred's feelings, and we won't be getting that without wesley--because that was what was bringing all of that out. spike is just illyria's power-tripping need for an amusing minion (we don't need any more silly dork-spike--we need serious drama-WILLIAM). wesley was the only one that illyria remotely had respect for--or human weakness when it was around him.

i think its time we started seeing more pre-"get it done" william and less dork-spike. spike needs to be taken seriously and fast. boning chicks and being illyria's pet isn't going to do that. spike joining angel's fight would be a good start.

lynch's belief that angel's decision was the wrong one has all the signs of him not favoring the character. he's living himself through spike... and that is why this is bad fanfiction. that's mary-sueing. not only is it NOT in character (it negates spike's entire character growth in "hellbound", "a hole in the world" and "not fade away"), it makes spike look bad. and i still don't think lynch gets that.

and again, i repeat: the only one that is going to make illyria interesting is wesley. with anyone else she is a big blue power-trip joke.

[patxshand]

i trust joss a lot more than lynch. he still doesn't have the flavor down right... especially angel. nothing angel about lynch's angel at all.

Wow. I... don't agree. With his dry wit and badass one-liners, I think Lynch has nailed classic Angel, who--by the way--is an extremely difficult character to write.

all i can hope for is angel, connor and wesley. at least they seem to understand angel.

apparently, spike has regressed into a hypocrite (he was the FIRST to raise his hand). i love spike, and i think lynch doesn't understand him at all (not to mention the utter lack of respect and acknowledgment of angel's intelligence that lynch has given him). i seriously think that lynch's bias shows through strong and clear.

Lynch's bias? Do you feel that Lynch is biased towards Spike or Angel, because you seem to think he portrays *both* of them negatively.

it's not a spuffy vs. bangel thing. it's a spike vs. angel issue. lynch clearly favors spike acting like a goofy moron and does his darnest to remove angel's witticism (which turns him into a cardboard he never was), but in the doing of it, hurts spike, too. i would be thinking that the true spike fans (the ones that don't just want to see him as a butt of a joke or naked) would be outraged even worse than the angel fans.

I'm an Angel fan. Not outraged at all. In fact, I'm thrilled that the only IDW writer to ever nail a character spot on is telling us the story we've all been wanting to hear.

apparently lynch has grudgingly started to admit that some of the things he wanted in angel: after the fall are really falling hard. he's definitely gotten it through his head that urru's art needs a serious overhaul (before, he was just making excuses for it by saying urru was italian--now, he's admitting that they have to do something about it/make something happen sooner because of the oversaturation of butts and breasts and spike's seeming love slave/hefner thing).

and i'm really sick of the change to the demons from guys in latex with either human personalities or almost non-existent background parts (the show) to being all pure demons and absolute morons who talk way too much while our main characters really need that talking space (especially angel). the show had a serious edge that lynch just doesn't get. wesley and connor are the only characters he hasn't focked over so far.

to add to the insult, one of angel's lines in issue #1 (clearly) was given to wesley (it was jolting to think of wesley calling a demon "big boy" or mentioning chasing rainbows... aaaaaack!). angel always insults his enemies in battle. here, lynch makes angel into this cardboardy silent guy and gives his witticisms to other characters. the lack of jossian undercuts by angel is VERY noticeable.

Really? Just a few posts up is King's transcript. Not only does Angel get all the best lines, he gets almost *all* the lines. But, to show how non-cardboard Angel is, I really only have to say one word:

Recompense.


lynch's belief that angel's decision was the wrong one has all the signs of him not favoring the character. he's living himself through spike... and that is why this is bad fanfiction.

Wow. Do you hate puppies to? No, just kidding. But to say that he's living himself through Spike... That's not only disrespectful and presumptious, it's just really wierd. I love Spike, but I don't get the notion that he's a saint. A big part about Spike's character that people forget is that he... loves... sex. He LOVES it. Also, we've gotten about four pages of Spike. Bit early to condem the story.

and again, i repeat: the only one that is going to make illyria interesting is wesley. with anyone else she is a big blue power-trip joke.

She is awesome with Wesley. But she's also awesome by herself. "Big blue power-trip joke." I don't know... She's a really interesting character with *so* much unexplored territory. And bad-assery? She's got it. I'm ready to get down on my knees and *bloody hail* because "After the Fall" is more than I could have ever hoped for.

[KingofCretins]

I think Spike and Angel are both pretty believable in "After the Fall" so far. Spike's hold on the whole champion gig has always been a little tenuous, and he is known best for preferring short cuts, so settling into being a kept man or whatever he is makes a decent amount of sense. And Angel has been downright snarky, to me -- if anything, I thought any mischaracterization was that he wasn't quite terse enough.

apparently lynch has grudgingly started to admit that some of the things he wanted in angel: after the fall are really falling hard. he's definitely gotten it through his head that urru's art needs a serious overhaul (before, he was just making excuses for it by saying urru was italian--now, he's admitting that they have to do something about it/make something happen sooner because of the oversaturation of butts and breasts and spike's seeming love slave/hefner thing).

I didn't sense any change tonally between the two issues. The inking changed, but not the pencils, not much, and this is much better now. But the overall aesthetic hasn't changed at all.

I don't think they are doing anything about the largely unfair criticism of the art, especially since 95% of it was made about a *variant cover* and not the actual issue, which reveals Spike to really be anything but Hef. If anything, he's the house eye candy.

as for koc--i think it would be far more interesting if angel made the RIGHT decision. and i believe he did. angel was always a big thinker. it would certainly bring angel's comment to wesley about how wesley always made the hard decisions others couldn't--it would make that line even more important.

Well, I don't think it's much condolence to the 10 million or so people now enjoying their new hell dimension with the torment and death and all. The whole series basically seems built around Angel trying to buy back the mistake of a frontal assualt on the Senior Partners and the broader, more foolish mistake of going to W&H in the first place.

wesley was the only one that illyria remotely had respect for--or human weakness when it was around him.

Spike was connecting with her in "Time Bomb" about Wesley giving her the cold shoulder, so it makes sense to me that she'd replace Wesley with him as her guide/pet.

lynch's belief that angel's decision was the wrong one has all the signs of him not favoring the character.

Or it's a sign of it being a bad decision. Remember, there's more than one creative credit to this story here -- Lynch is not doing a single thing in this story that has not received the approval of Joss. Season 5 and "After the Fall" are about the failure of heroic compromise and its consequences.

[ThePoet's<3]

I'm a Spike fan - and the day I saw the first cover of Spike surrounded by Koc's Demon Ho's (LOL! :D) I thought to myself - "That's my Spike." "Land in Hell and come out smellin' like a rose." That's one of the character's greatest strengths is adaptability! Remember Spike and Adam?? Did you ever see anyone suck up to a demon like Spike did with Adam?? And if you've ever read the "Spike and Dru" comic that James Marsters wrote - again - we find Spike surrounded by luxury with everyone waiting on him hand and foot. No - it's not canon - but apparently others are able to see that about Spike as well - including the actor who protrayed him.

And lets not forget Buffy! When Spike got chipped and thought he was doomed by human and demon alike - he went to the Slayer for protection. When the demon World turned their backs on him - he alligned himself with the Slayer.

patxshand -A big part about Spike's character that people forget is that he... loves... sex. He LOVES it.

Ya think?!? :D :heart:

I'm not disappointed in Lynch's Spike yet... However - I'm for more "Destiny" fights!! I do prefer Kick-A Spike rather than "Pink PJ" Spike... :D

And about that golden cup - you might be right KoC in your transcipt. If it was not the same cup - I think it was symbolic of that cup. Very symbolic with him tossing it around like so much garbage.

And the Boobage (thanks Pat!) is just something we will have to overlook. It is a comic-book trait. Place your thumb over them... ;)

[sueworld]

Here's Franco's cover for the same issue. Quite a difference in tone eh?

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/preview2.php?image=litg/2007/1224/AngelAtF_5_Franco_Paolo_rgb.jpg

[Moscow Watcher]

I wonder if we have two Wesleys on this cover. (in Shadow Puppets there were three of them)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/MoscowWatcher/Angel%20After%20the%20Fall/AngelAtF_5_question.jpg

[Heather]

Hmm...I was thinking that that might be Groo. But I'm not sure - especially since I haven't even read the comics yet (excluding skimming the transcripts) and I'm not 100% sure if that theory makes sense. To me, it certainly looks like Groo, but I may be (and probably am) wrong.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Yay! Lornitoons! Can't wait for the green god to come back :D

[NileQT87]

wesley is holding the scrolls of aberjian (with the shanshu and tro-clon prophecies). YAY! i do hope we get more of the shanshu storyline.

[KingofCretins]

I'm with Heather, I think that's Groo. I've been wondering what ole Groo has been up to. Apparently not getting out of LA, huh?

He looks pretty angry, though. I doubt he'll be happy about Cordy.

[sueworld]

Sorry to dissapoint you love, but I believe thats the handle of Angels sword. If you look at the existing panels seen so far you can see how he's got it slung across his back.

Thats the handle you're seeing, nothing more.

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/7527/2aatf16wo7.jpg

[NileQT87]

i hope its not groo (probably my least favorite jossverse character ever--he always kind of weirded me out in a creepy way--he has a very disconcerting personality, imo), but it probably is him. ::sigh:: hopefully, his bit is brief.

though, it's nice to see lorne back! whoohoo! and the art has definitely improved. if they can just start making the body proportions a bit more... human. the faces are better, though. connor has been looking really good.

dammit. it is the broadsword. oh, well. it looked like the scroll tube.

[vampmogs]

HAPPY XMAS EVERYONE :)

I think it'd make the most sense for it to be Groo. Doesn't mean he didn't leave LA, but perhaps he came back and then was caught in it when it sent to hell? Since he's classified as a champion and big hero, wonder how he'll feel about everything that has happened.

[sueworld]

Well Brian said this about it on Whedonesque...

It's not Wesley, it's not Giles, but it is someone we've seen before on one of the shows. Hmmmmmm!

I haven't a clue at the moment. Whoever it is he doesn't look very happy. *g*

[KingofCretins]

The case for Groo is getting stronger and stronger. This picture (http://www.screencap-paradise.com/caps/displayimage.php?pid=102410&fullsize=1) is of Groo in 3.22 "Tomorrow", in regular clothes. Looks pretty close.

[NileQT87]

he doesn't look mad so much as constipated.

yeah, it's probably groo. probably there to have the anti-angel faction have a dolt "hero" to rally around (it was angel that saved groo from being plant food in "couplet"). groo might be mad about cordelia or getting stuck in another "hell dimension" (along with lorne)... but like most ats characters, angel has kept most of them alive as long as they were. the other purpose of groo was to make angel doubt himself (it brought up the old bangel stuff--can't save people in the sunlight, etc...) and to circumvent cangel from happening too soon (along with darla's baby surprise)... but i think the angel-doubting-himself was covered in "destiny" and "soul purpose".

well, at least he was slightly less of a dolt (not saying much) when he had the sight to see cordelia was just turning him into an inferior angel clone. better than his hercules act in pylea (one of my less than favorite greek mythological archetypes).

[KingofCretins]

There's an "anti-Angel faction"? Is that like the vast right-wing conspiracy?

I like the idea of having Groo back just for the sake of having Groo back. Groo is sort of the experimental model of what Angel said about champions in "Deep Down"; he doesn't know any other way to be than heroic and stalward and true -- it's not even a choice for him like it is for Angel or Buffy or Spike or any other champions. It's just his nature. I think having him around would be a great contrast to, for instance, Illyria.

[NileQT87]

(i am right-wing, koc. you'll find it pretty difficult to pinpoint me as a lefty. remember the jasmine thread?)

the "anti-angel faction" that i'm referring to are all the characters who are blaming angel for what they fully agreed to participate in and/or whose assi were saved frequently by him. spike, in particular. gunn has the excuse of not actually being gunn, but a soulless demon who killed gunn and took over his body. spike is still the same william who raised his hand before and after the fight--and didn't even have any memories that the connor mind-wipe would even remotely affect.

lorne, on the other hand, being mad at angel would be much more respectable. even wesley and illyria. even connor. ironically, wesley and connor are probably his closest friends right now. connor, anyway. it seems like wesley wants to join angel, but angel isn't sure about him.

[KingofCretins]

the "anti-angel faction" that i'm referring to are all the characters who are blaming angel for what they fully agreed to participate in and/or whose assi were saved frequently by him. spike, in particular. gunn has the excuse of not actually being gunn, but a soulless demon who killed gunn and took over his body. spike is still the same william who raised his hand before and after the fight--and didn't even have any memories that the connor mind-wipe would even remotely affect.

I referred to the "vast right-wing conspiracy" because I believe the two concepts to represent things equally theoretical. I'm not anti-Angel, I just know he boned a big decision. If he hadn't, he'd be the only Buffyverse character not to.

I also still don't think "William" or "Liam" factor into any of this anymore -- those men are dead. The demons that have taken over their bodies have been given souls, but that's as far as it goes. Regardless, throwing in with Angel doesn't absolve him of the responsibility held by all commanders, all kings, if you will. Robert E. Lee's troops followed him enthusiastically, but he was still apologizing to them for the defeat at Gettysburg as they marched away.

[vampmogs]

Regardless, throwing in with Angel doesn't absolve him of the responsibility held by all commanders, all kings, if you will. Robert E. Lee's troops followed him enthusiastically, but he was still apologizing to them for the defeat at Gettysburg as they marched away.

I don't believe this fits with the "as a team" feeling of what happened there. They made the decision together as equals, they all needed to believe in it and help eachother. It wasn't your typical "I say do this and you do it" situation.

[alexa]

I love Groo actually, and Couplet is also one of my favourite episodes. And I'm not anti-Angel at all.

Doesn't look like Groo to me really..but who can tell with this artist, found it hard figuring out it was Gunn in the last page of 1. Can't think of anyone else who has that colouring and would wear a shirt like that though. My boyfriend said Lindsay.. doesn't look too much like Lindsay to me.

[Vampire in Rug]

Yeah I'm thinking it's Groo. While I like the character, and it will be good to see him again, I'm wondering if he's really essential to the story. Already we've got a cast that consists of Angel, Spike, Gunn, Wes, George, Illyria, Nina, Gwen, Conner, "dragon", Burge, Spider and apparently Lorne as recurring characters. While catching up with Groo wouldn't be a bad thing per se, I'd rather the "screentime" be devoted to the more important core characters, or perhaps important new characters.

And am I the only one who's slightly disapointed in this cover? I like the layout and composition of the cover, but I can't help but feel the characters should have been given more detail, and made more to look like thier onscreen counterparts. Hell, this discussion over the identity of the guy to the upper left shouldn't even be happening. We should know who he is simply be seeing the picture. Nobody debated whether or not it was really Xander on Buffy S8#2. Nobody wondered if it was in fact Giles on issue 7. The kind of atrwork is fine for the actual comic itself, but I feel that the cover should be more detailed, and of slightly higher quality.

[sueworld]

Yes, I agree that is a weakness in the art.

But thats the problem with both the comic medium as a whole really. I for instance one couldn't figure who certain characters were in the season 8 comic until they opened their mouths and said something, but on the other hand Jo Chen's covers are exceptional in their almost photographic likenesses to their TV counterparts. You don't often get that in the comic world, sadly.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

There's an "anti-Angel faction"? Is that like the vast right-wing conspiracy?

I'd imagine the anti-Angel faction would tend to be more left wing - after all, he represents big business and laissez-faire government ("I just can't seem to care") ;)


I like the idea of having Groo back just for the sake of having Groo back. Groo is sort of the experimental model of what Angel said about champions in "Deep Down"; he doesn't know any other way to be than heroic and stalward and true -- it's not even a choice for him like it is for Angel or Buffy or Spike or any other champions. It's just his nature.

Yes, he's a hero mirror, a way to understand Angel's character, as much as a character in his own right. Perhaps Kendra's a parallel - ok, she is a character in her own right, but she's got parodic elements to her (eg her attitude to boys is quite over the top and ridiculous, just as Groo's chivalry is), and a lot of her role is about showing what Buffy represents - she's the "ideal" slayer, while Buffy's the one who broke the mould. Just as Angel is a hero who's not very traditionally shining armoury a lot of the time (what with the blood drinking, the brooding, and going evil post-coitally). Groo is the "ideal", while Angel is the grittier real thing.


I think having him around would be a great contrast to, for instance, Illyria.

Hee! Illyria/Groo! They can have really stilted conversations in faux-olde English! I'd love to see them have a scene together and compare notes on the modern world. And then perhaps both of them find hell less confusing.

[patxshand]

Yeah that is most likely Groo. He was an awesome addition to the series, especially in the third season. At first I thought brining him back (THEN) was a bad idea, but his triangle with Angel and Cordy was done perfectly. He was a great character.

[vampmogs]

I didn't actually like the character much and kind of felt like he was just there for no real reason. But I think he worked best when he showed Angel the champion he wanted to be and sadly the things he couldn't have, like walking out into the sunlight and getting everyone come and hug him and cheer him on. I'm expecting you'll get a lot more of that with Groo if it is him due to what is happening in After The Fall so I think his character will be an excellent addition.