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View Full Version : Character conflicts unreasonable



kitube
14-01-16, 02:18 AM
This is my first post on this forum, so please be gentle with me, iam stating an opinion (which i will defend vigorously but not absolutely) and am looking for interested people to discuss it with.

I have watched Buffy once and once till season 7 ep ~6, read the first few comics of season 8 and am currently on season 5 ep 11 of angel.
Time and time again do the characters act on something on their own (either keeping a secret or simply making a decision) with practically always good, non-treacherous intentions, which usually in the big picture end up alright, yet the other characters get offended/aggressive/judging and ignoring the "evildoer's" point of view, yet every single character is guilty of the doing something similar and of judging others of it.

Examples:
Buffy sleeping with spike, yes it was weird and low, but others *cough* dawn *cough* just couldn't stop whining and bitching for one second about how she kept a secret (are you kidding me? does she expect her way older sister to tell her of a guy shes doing?) and think about why shes doing it.

Angel team in season 5 working for wolfram and heart and the slayer team not trusting them, so the slayers don't trust angel after they are working for wolfram and hart, did they once have contact and ask whats going on? no, they just assumed they are evil.

Xander gets rescued (multiple times) and nearly always judges buffy when she screws up, he has nearly no skill (although he could easily learn to properly fight, magic or knowledge) the scooby gang has to save him often but when buffy somehow does something he doesn't like (for example angel) he can't shut up as if he never does anything wrong.

Cordelia judging angel for sleeping with eve even though she slept with his son!! I mean it doesn't get any more hypocritical than that.

When iam watching a lot more things come to mind, but trying to remember them afterwards is difficult.
But something like this probably happens every second episode on average.
There are way too many inter group conflicts for characters which have gone together through so much as them, they should be a lot more trusting, every season someone loses complete trust and regains it again, you would assume that after a while either they quit for real their relationship or trust for real.

HardlyThere
14-01-16, 10:18 AM
A lot of conflicts in life are unreasonable. The only time it bothered me on the show(s) was when it was implied that one character was right in their unreasonable conflict. Like your first example there, Dawn has a line in S7 saying 'that's when you let people in, when you decide' and it's like yes, Dawn. That's what privacy is. You're not entitled to know everything about everyone, even your sister. If it was one time, it would be OK, but the idea that Buffy (or any character) was supposed to give detailed daily reports to her friends was a recurring one.

VisionGuy
14-01-16, 10:53 PM
I know it's your first time watching Angel, but you're completely wrong about Cordelia. Cordelia was possessed by Jasmine when she slept with Angel's son and she wasn't in control of her actions because that wasn't her. She is not a hypocrite for snarking about Angel sleeping with Eve. But I do get your point. I totally agree on Xander being judgmental. It especially irked me in season three episode "Revelations" where Xander so arrogantly scolded Buffy for keeping Angel's return a secret and kissing him, while he was sneaking around with Willow even though he was dating Cordy. Buffy was wrong to do that, but for him to act so self-righteous and judgmental when he is being dishonest as well makes him a complete hypocrite. Even Willow, who was also upset at Buffy hiding Angel, realized she couldn't get too angry with Buffy because she was keeping secrets and hurting others as well.

HardlyThere
14-01-16, 11:50 PM
Angel was under a spell or whatever as well.

TimeTravellingBunny
17-01-16, 09:03 PM
Angel was under a spell or whatever as well.
Yes, they were generally awful in dealing with magic-induced non-consensual sex in Buffyverse - on both shows and in the comics. That Angel episode was the worst in that respect, the way it was treated as a super-funny joke. And also, there was always double standard when males were victims - Angel asks Eve if she's OK, as if he's supposed to be OK just because he's a dude, so no big deal. BtVS also failed to properly deal with Faith's rape of Riley and attempted rape/attempted murder of Xander.

HardlyThere
19-01-16, 01:59 AM
Yes, they were generally awful in dealing with magic-induced non-consensual sex in Buffyverse - on both shows and in the comics. That Angel episode was the worst in that respect, the way it was treated as a super-funny joke. And also, there was always double standard when males were victims - Angel asks Eve if she's OK, as if he's supposed to be OK just because he's a dude, so no big deal. BtVS also failed to properly deal with Faith's rape of Riley and attempted rape/attempted murder of Xander.

Yeah, I guess I can see the funny awkwardness angle they're going for when it's mutual, like Giles/Joyce. It's really bothersome when they want to assign blame or attempt to shame the character.

IMO, Kat calling out The Trio just makes it even more troubling because the writers were obviously aware of it.

MikeB
18-03-16, 03:55 AM
kitube

* Buffy’s “sleeping with Spike” wasn’t “weird and low”.


* If anything Buffy’s and Co’s response to Angel’s joining Wolfram and Hart is extremely muted. Given the perfect happiness clause thing, they probably should have forced him out of Wolfram and Hart and possibly even killed him.

In-verse, Giles simply refuses to try to get Willow to help with the Fred situation. Given Giles was opposed to the notion of resurrecting Buffy, given Giles knows Wolfram and Hart is evil, Giles is perfectly reasonable in refusing to try to help Angel.

In-verse, Andrew simply refuses to allow Angel to keep Dana in Wolfram and Hart facilities. That’s beyond perfectly reasonable. It’s also perfectly reasonable to shut down’s Angel’s deluded notions that he would somehow have more power in the Buffy Organization than essentially the Number 2 Watcher in the world and someone who has a team of around a dozen Slayers with him.



VisionGuy

* The Scoobies reactions in “Revelations” (B 3.07) proved Buffy was correct to keep Angel’s being back a secret. It’s possible either or both Giles and Xander would have tried to kill Angel when he was chained up.



TimeTravellingBunny


BtVS also failed to properly deal with Faith's rape of Riley and attempted rape/attempted murder of Xander. The rape of Riley was mentioned in “Sanctuary” (A 1.19) and “Superstar” (B 4.17) was largely about Jonathan tried to get the Buffy/Riley relationship past the Riley/Faith thing.

Faith’s trying to rape and murder Xander was ‘dealt with’ enough. What more should have happened to Faith? While Faith is relatively glib about Xander/Faith in BtVS S7, this is in the context of the things Willow’s recently done, that Spike is now even closer to Buffy, etc. In BtVS S7, Faith is less evil than: Willow; Spike; and arguably, Buffy, Giles, Wood, and Andrew.