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View Full Version : Angel & Faith # 18 Issue Discussion Thread(Full Spoilers)



BAF
31-08-15, 09:37 PM
The issue is out this week but finally the preview pages are out.

http://www.darkhorse.com/Comics/Previews/26-406?page=0

http://d2lzb5v10mb0lj.cloudfront.net/covers/600/26/26406.jpg

http://d2lzb5v10mb0lj.cloudfront.net/common/salestools/previews/agelafs10n18/agelafs10n18p1.jpg

http://d2lzb5v10mb0lj.cloudfront.net/common/salestools/previews/agelafs10n18/agelafs10n18p2.jpg

MikeB
02-09-15, 01:49 PM
A&F 10.18 bullet points and analysis


* In general, the main and perhaps only thing that made sense in this Issue is Drusilla ran away from Eldre Koh.


* Unless Archaeus is somehow greatly influencing Dru, it doesn’t make sense she’d be working for him.


* Unless the New Rules Vampires in Magic Town are considerably weaker and less powerful than the New Rules Vampires elsewhere, Faith’s ability to fight off 7 NRVs is compete BS. In BtVS 10.03, the combined forces of Willow, Dracula, Buffy, and Spike had a relatively difficult time killing 4 NRVs.

- In addition, the NRVs Faith is fighting off seem to have been sired by Drusilla.

- Does it make ANY sense that weaponless Faith could possibly be around 2 times more formidable than Dracula with a sword, Buffy with the Scythe, and Spike with a stake combined?

- In addition, unless Fred’s crossbow was super-powered, it doesn’t make much sense the bolt killed the NRV.


* Faith’s trying to kill Drusilla simply makes Faith beyond hypocritical and stupid.

- Hypocritical given all she did for Angel after BtVS 8.39. Stupid given Faith’s last fight with Drusilla, given Spike’s reaction if he ever found out Faith killed Drusilla, given Angel didn’t want Drusilla killed, etc.


* Why would Drusilla want to kill Faith? What about Dru in A&F S9 liking Angel? Would Dru actually be completely unconcerned Angel would be upset that Dru killed Faith?


* Dru didn’t lick her fingernails after slicing Kendra Young’s throat (“Becoming Part II” (B 2.22)). Dru didn’t try to bite Buffy in “Crush” (B 5.14). If Dru wanted to kill Faith, why wouldn’t Dru simply slice Faith’s throat, punch a hole through Faith’s chest, whatever.


* Um, Fred strength combined with a not athletic high school girl’s strength doesn’t equal Slayer strength. Unless Fred was somehow channeling Illyria’s strength, it makes no sense the NRV was staked by them.


* Drusilla’s already had Slayer blood. She had it in 1900 C.E. Did Archaeus make Dru forget certain memories?


* I’m honestly not sure it could make sense if Eldre Koh could have fought off 7 NRVs and he’s multiple times more powerful than Faith is.

- I’m also not sure if can make sense that Koh and Faith combined could kill 6 NRVs as easily as they did.


* By the way, given Eldre Koh was friends with Spike, respected Buffy, etc., Koh should have stayed in San Francisco. He would have been very useful in the Archaeus situation.

- It’s another reason why the Angel crossover made less than zero sense and it’s another reason why Xander and Dawn’s being in the fights made around zero sense.


* Given Eldre Koh can’t super-speed and given Dru can, Koh actually couldn’t stop Dru and he couldn’t catch up to her.


* Wow, Faith is getting increasingly unlikable. Dru sired several students. That doesn’t compare to the hundreds of Slayers Angel killed in BtVS S8 much less all the other death and destruction Angel caused much less Angel’s wanting the entire world and all its life destroyed. The comics are trying to get the readers to consider Dru is more evil than Angel is.

Stoney
02-09-15, 09:24 PM
This felt a little slow and exposition-y where there should have been more impact/pace to go with the Dru reveal I think, but I didn't totally dislike the issue. I did feel that I wasn't really hearing Dru's voice, but that may improve on a reread when I'm not concentrating as much on what is being said, but on this read it was lacking here a little for me. I'm also looking forward to Will Conrad returning because, as much as I still enjoyed the Faith/Fred team-up, I continued to have issues discerning them in the art at some points. I also found the artistry on the angles of limbs at times of action seemed distractedly contorted. I wasn't delighted to see the red vamp eyes on Dru either.

On the plus side I was really pleased to get the logical continuity with Archaeus. His influence on Dru isn't hindered by a soul. She already dreamed of how wonderful a world filled with pain would be and so his seduction of her into whatever plan he has in mind was obviously an easy sell, as appealing to evil with an evil plan can be. I'll be honest that I am tired of the leniency that 'known' vamps get, Harmony and Drac specifically, and will welcome a story where there is a more stark old-school perspective on actions where there is no remorse. Redemption stories are great, and some walk the line inbetween for personal gain which is interesting too, but we also need some bad guys who remain just that. I don't want Dru reduced just to a mwa ha ha villain of course and hope we get some character development for her within this story, but I'm glad that she clearly is being villainous and is seen as such to be honest. I think they also paved the possibility of her heading over to SF with the Spike comment, and as they are parading exes over there for Spuffy to weather it sure doesn't seem impossible.

It was nice to see Koh on the page again. I really like this character and would like to see him settled and involved further in the story. The statue obviously is the key to Mary's importance and visually fitted with an army being gathered for whatever hidden power it contains. The focus on school kids does feel like it should have meaning. I know Fred/Faith were saying that targeting kids generally could be seen to fit a vamp, but it feels like it should be more than just that.

I see there is still confusion over Archaeus though as the guy in the letters refers to having found out who sired The Master and Archaeus didn't, he isn't a vamp, he just gave his demon essence to the process. It isn't great that they didn't pick up on that and correct him (she says confident she understands it!!). Gage must just cringe every time this rears its head and, even though he has imo now clearly explained what he meant, the confusions just seem to keep sticking.

vampmogs
03-09-15, 10:41 AM
I actually bothered to read this issue because for once the preview pages intrigued me. It was a mixed bag for me but overall it wasn't bad.

Things I liked;

That vamps were portrayed as a legitimate threat again. The scenes of Fred and Mary running away from the vamp were very old school and we really haven't seen a scene like that since Potential, and even that was a call back to earlier seasons. Now, yes, technically these were 'New Vampires', but aside from his flesh being harder to penetrate they really dialled back on that a bit and I found it enjoyable.

The preview pages were great. Archaeus coming to Drusilla in her dream was very well done and was nice and creepy. It was just a small scene but he was probably more effective in these few pages than he has been throughout S10 so far. Maybe Isaac's art is just too cartoony for me.

Overall I liked the art, although aside from one or two panels his Faith is pretty weak. Archaeus was drawn well and so was Drusilla and I thought the vampire characters were great.

Things I didn't like;

I agree with Stoney that the writing his failed to capture Drusilla's voice well. At times it sounds like a poor imitation of someone who is trying to write Drusilla but failing rather badly and the rest of the time she sounds far too sane. I do have to wonder if, like Harmony, Dru's character is just really hard to translate onto page because nobody has really managed to capture her voice since the comics began.

Vampire in Rug
03-09-15, 10:42 AM
I liked this issue well enough. I agree with Stoney, that it's nice to finally see a known vampire treated as a villain again. Drusilla has sired plenty of students, and I think I remember from a previous issue that some of the vamp-students are straight up killing people. I'll hate it if the characters decide to just let Drusilla walk away from this. Although it is getting a bit tiresome that she manages to slip away during a big chaotic fight scene again. The statue Mary's father is studying seems important, my guess is that it's going to come alive somehow.

I do wish that both series weren't restricted by the "season" format. I feel like we're getting towards the end of both seasons and the books could do with a few more issues to breathe. A&F in particular has quite a few dangling plot threads that are going to be difficult to wrap up in the space of a few issues, and this series is being cut even shorter than BtVS.

I do like this artist, but I feel he really needs to work on capturing the likeness of Fred better. Sometimes it's very difficult to tell Faith and Fred apart.

I really like Faith's burn to Dru about Spike and Buffy, and Dru's reaction shot to it.

Mike, the New Vampires are as tough as the writer needs them to be in each situation -which is exactly the same as how it was with the Old vampires and zompires. Sometimes a major fighter character like Buffy or Angel or Spike could struggle with a single vampire -other times they could dust whole groups of them. And for the record, the skin of the New Vampires is supposed to be tougher to stake than the old vampires or the zomps (both species seemed to have the toughness of wet paper on their chests and backs) but they are not impossible for a regular human to pierce. A regular human CAN dust a new vampire with a stake, it just takes more effort. In this issue, the guy was braced against a wall, making him even easier and the flagpole is a weapon that two people can put their entire weight into. I have no effort believing that Fred and Mary could dust that guy. And a crossbow could absolutely dust a new vampire. I think you underestimate how much power crossbows have behind them.

BAF
05-09-15, 06:45 PM
http://www.comicbookresources.com/comic-review/angel-faith-season-10-18-dark-horse-comics

Angel & Faith: Season 10 #18

by Greg McElhatton, Reviewer

"Angel & Faith: Season 10" has been in a difficult position. After Christos Gage and Rebekah Isaacs' previous series ended up being a success (and critically eclipsing its parent title), the creative team moved over to tackle Buffy, leaving poor "Angel & Faith" behind under new hands. Victor Gischler and Cliff Richards' "Angel & Faith Season 10" #18 has taken the step of firmly tying this series to what's happening in "Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season 10," and it's a smart move on all counts.

By having the same major villain behind the events of both titles, not only does "Angel & Faith Season 10" feel a little more "critical" in terms of reading, but it also gives Archaeus a bit more of a strong presence in each title. Gischler's script wisely places Archaeus in the role of manipulator, showing that it was his hand that moved Drusilla into St. Cuthbert's to prey on the students. It helps keep Drusilla at a place where she can still be a little crazy but also have an actual plan, which is a nice balance.

The plotting is a little deus ex machine (although at least this time it's not a literal god coming to save the day, which is a relief) but, at the same time, I do appreciate that Faith and Fred are smart enough to know when they need to call in some backup. With the book building up a larger supporting cast in recent issues, this move both makes sense and also reinforces the presence of these other characters. The fight itself (Faith and Fred versus the vampires) is perfectly fine, and I also appreciate that there's a reason why poor Mary was being stalked (even if we're not entirely sure what the item on that last page does).

I've always found Richards to be a variable artist, so I'll cut right to the chase: I think this is one of his best contributions to the Buffyverse. Drusilla's saunter while talking to Mary looks pretty perfect in terms of portraying Juliet Landau, and Fred in particular looks on model without feeling stiff or posed. The action sequences work well, and I like the moment where Faith is fighting towards Drusilla while all of the other vampires continue to swarm her in an attempt to hold her back. While some of the close-ups on Faith's face seem a little droopy, it's a minor nitpick in a comic that otherwise really works well. Richards and colorist Michelle Madsen have created a handsome looking comic and it's a pleasure to have the visuals coming together.

"Angel & Faith: Season 10" #18 is definitely one of the better issues in the series, and I feel like the book is now on track to barrel towards its (eventual) conclusion. The villain is well established, the cast is works well together and the utter absence of Angel this month is barely even felt. All in all, a thumbs up.


I should have my copy later today

- - - Updated - - -

Got my copy of Angel & Faith # 18,Part III of "Those Who Can't Teach,Teach Gym."

Not a bad issue.Most of us were already spoiled about Dru and Archaeus and I'm still not sold on Archaeus based off how he was used over in buffy but we'll see here.

I really liked the Faith/Fred temaup element of this arc.It was a nice change of pace.

Also was nice to see Koh back.

As I've seen mentioned by others,I agree that this is the first time in a while that vampires felt more threatening.That I think happens just by the long run of the product.

The Walking Dead tv show has suffered a little from that too although the new spin-off Fear The Walking Dead is bringing that threat back due to it's timeline and setting.

Overall I thought this was fun little arc.

Vampire in Rug
06-09-15, 01:39 AM
* Unless Archaeus is somehow greatly influencing Dru, it doesn’t make sense she’d be working for him.

Why not? Darla worked for the Master. Spike worked for Adam. Angelus worked for Jasmine (until he betrayed the Beast). Why do you think it's beneath Drusilla to work for/with someone more powerful than her? Archaeus could literally control her if he wanted, and least the way it's being portrayed is that Drusilla and Archaeus have shared goals, Drusilla seems to want the same things he wants. She seems to be serving him willingly, I don't see how that's demeaning her character in the least to not be the one in charge.



- In addition, the NRVs Faith is fighting off seem to have been sired by Drusilla.

Yep, Faith dusted a whole bunch of new vamps sired by Drusilla and you're just gonna have to deal with that. I suppose the New vampire Angel dusted in an earlier issue was also sired by Dru if he was a student. For what it's worth, the new vampires might be naturally strong, but they are still young and inexperienced, and you're the only one who thinks being sired by Drusilla should make them better than your average rookie vamp.


- In addition, unless Fred’s crossbow was super-powered, it doesn’t make much sense the bolt killed the NRV.

Crossbows can literally pierce armour. The kinetic energy behind a crossbow is huge. Search for TWANGnBANG on youtube if you want to see a crossbow vs a cinder block, car door, modern armour, etc.


* Faith’s trying to kill Drusilla simply makes Faith beyond hypocritical and stupid.

Yes, we get it. You're upset that Angel wasn't staked for being Twilight. You remind us of this in every single post. Do you think it's hypocritical for the characters to stake ANY vampire at all?


Hypocritical given all she did for Angel after BtVS 8.39. Stupid given Faith’s last fight with Drusilla, given Spike’s reaction if he ever found out Faith killed Drusilla, given Angel didn’t want Drusilla killed, etc.

Is it hypocritical when Faith, Buffy, Spike, Willow or Xander dust any random vampire?

Faith's last fight with Drusilla is not the curbstomp in Drusilla's favor you're remembering it as. Their was, from memory, a brief tussle where neither of them was especially winning, then Drusilla slipped away in the chaos. A fight with Drusilla is not something Faith would be scared of. If the writers wanted to establish Drusilla as a stronger opponent than Faith, maybe they should have had Drusilla conclusively win the fight instead of Faith being restrained by a group of vampires.

And I actually did chuckle out loud at your suggestion that Faith would be scared of Spike's repercussion if he found out that Faith staked Drusilla. Since when has Faith ever been scared of Spike? And what do you think Spike is seriously going to do? He's going to travel all the way to London and exact revenge for Drusilla by murdering Faith in retaliation? Really? I'd like to think that Spike -at this point in his moral journey, would be mature enough to realize that killing Drusilla in the name of protecting innocent students is the right thing to do. Even though Spike might be saddened at Drusilla's death, if it meant protecting innocent people, I think he could accept that Faith had to kill Drusilla because he's not a complete piece of selfish shit. Do you really think Spike is going to be okay with Drusilla killing innocent people and teaming up with Archaeus? When Faith went for Drusilla with the stake, I doubt Spike even crossed her mind.


* Why would Drusilla want to kill Faith? What about Dru in A&F S9 liking Angel? Would Dru actually be completely unconcerned Angel would be upset that Dru killed Faith?

Dru's crazy.

One thing I think the writers dropped the ball on, is that they've had neither Drusilla nor Faith mention the fact that Drusilla is responsible for Faith becoming a Slayer. That's a very interesting dynamic that hasn't been touched on, and we have never seen that kind of relationship between a Slayer and vampire before.


* I’m honestly not sure it could make sense if Eldre Koh could have fought off 7 NRVs and he’s multiple times more powerful than Faith is.

Where do you get the idea that Eldre Koh is stronger than Faith at all, let alone *multiple* times as strong as her? Is this just your opinion, or can you cite canon for this?


I’m also not sure if can make sense that Koh and Faith combined could kill 6 NRVs as easily as they did.

I'm positive that they can, and guess what, it happened. Random stake fodder vampires are as strong as the plot needs them to be, whether they are original vampires, zompires or new vampires.



* By the way, given Eldre Koh was friends with Spike, respected Buffy, etc., Koh should have stayed in San Francisco. He would have been very useful in the Archaeus situation.

The Buffy title is already filled to the brim with characters as it is. If I remember correctly, you also want Drusilla, Fred and Illyria in the Buffy title. The book has less than 30 pages a month. Getting rid of a bunch of characters is one of the best things Gage did at the start of season 10. If you had it your way, the book would suffer from being way to crowded.


* Given Eldre Koh can’t super-speed and given Dru can, Koh actually couldn’t stop Dru and he couldn’t catch up to her.

You need to cite the episodes where Drusilla used "super-speed". I also wonder why you think Koh wouldn't be as fast as a vampire. Given that he's only ever appeared in comics, and the motion of the characters is imagined by the reader, why do you think you can determine that Koh isn't as fast as Drusilla? I think both characters can move faster than an average human, but it's not what I would call "super-speed".



Wow, Faith is getting increasingly unlikable. Dru sired several students.

Do you think Dru should be punished AT ALL for siring several students? And no, I don't want to hear "but, but... Angel wasn't killed and he's worse!" I'm asking whether you think Drusilla deserves any punishment at all for her continued evil deeds independent of what happens to Angel. When I get pulled over for speeding, I don't argue "Well OJ Simpson got away with murder, why should I be punished for merely speeding?" In the here and now, regardless of what Angel's done, what do you think Drusilla deserves? Should she be allowed to continue going around killing?

MikeB
09-09-15, 10:10 AM
Vampire in Rug

* First off, I consider it is likely Season 10 isn’t actually canon; therefore, I’m not going to spend much time debating posters regarding the various Issues. I’m simply very disappointed in A&F S10 as it makes far less sense than even BtVS S10.


* The New Rules Vampires have been uniformly tough to fight and uniformly tough to kill outside of somehow headshots working and Giles’s extremely unrealistic newfound magical abilities; consequently, A&F 10.18 makes it seems as if an unarmed Faith is a better fighter and is more formidable than at least the combined forces of Dracula with a sword, Buffy with her Scythe, and Spike with a stake, and perhaps one can add Willow in there as well. Unless you can given an example of similarly pathetic NRVs, you have no valid argument.


And a crossbow could absolutely dust a new vampire. Is there an example pre-A&F 10.18?

__________________________________________________

* In A&F S9, we see that a not-insane Drusilla was no longer a threat to the world. In BtVS S8, we see that Angel is still a world-ending danger even when cursed.

BTW, your standard regarding whether Drusilla can be killed can apply to most of the characters in BtVS and in AtS. There are reasons to kill all of the following: Angel, Faith, Spike, Buffy, Willow, Giles, Xander, Oz, Koh, Illyria, Fred, etc.

Magic Town itself is largely Angel’s and Faith’s fault.

Anyway, I remember you and vampmogs seeming to somehow try to equate Spike’s putting his cigarette out in an urn of Alasdair’s to what Angel did in BtVS S8; so, obviously you’d glom onto Drusilla’s siring several students as somehow kill-worthy and not consider that Angel should have been killed after BtVS 8.39.

Vampire in Rug
11-09-15, 04:22 AM
Vampire in Rug

* First off, I consider it is likely Season 10 isn’t actually canon; therefore, I’m not going to spend much time debating posters regarding the various Issues. I’m simply very disappointed in A&F S10 as it makes far less sense than even BtVS S10.

As I've said in your other thread: season 10 is canon, Whedon's name is attached and nobody important has made any sort of statement to decanonize it. You seem to think that season 10 is non-canon because it doesn't match your ideas for the characters and contradicts your personal canon. Seems to be your way of coping and reassuring yourself if something happens in season 10 that you don't like.

I have to wonder though, if you don't think the story is canon anymore, why are you following it at all? Why are you trying to debate other fans at all if you're just going to say "pffft, whatever it's not like this story is canon" as your excuse to not address their points?



* The New Rules Vampires have been uniformly tough to fight and uniformly tough to kill outside of somehow headshots working and Giles’s extremely unrealistic newfound magical abilities; consequently, A&F 10.18 makes it seems as if an unarmed Faith is a better fighter and is more formidable than at least the combined forces of Dracula with a sword, Buffy with her Scythe, and Spike with a stake, and perhaps one can add Willow in there as well. Unless you can given an example of similarly pathetic NRVs, you have no valid argument.

Giles is able to one-shot the New vamps with his magic, and I don't think he's supposed to be all that powerful. Gage said that he's nowhere near Willow's level. He doesn't float or anything, yet he can kill the new vamps in one hit.

We've seen non-powered humans go up against the New vampires multiple times. Xander, Dawn, Andrew, Billy, Devon, Lavinia, Sophronia, Riley, Sam and that chemist's daughter in South America who easily staked her vamped father. Now you can add Fred and Mary to that list. Every incarnation of the vampires is as powerful as the writers need them to be.

At the start of the season, the writers needed to show Buffy struggle against the New vamps to establish them as a threat. In this issue, they needed Faith to clear a room of them. But if you need an in-universe explanations, how's this: Faith was able to kill so many New vamps because living in magic town has made her more powerful than Spike and Dru combined, so now she's a superslayer able to wipe the floor with the New Vamps? It's never actually mentioned in the canon, like your idea that Spike feeding on the Chinese Slayer gave him a permanent upgrade or the idea that Spike living on the Hellmouth permanently boosted his stats, but it's the same principal. You like it?



Is there an example pre-A&F 10.18?

Pretty sure Xander and Dawn have used crossbows against the New vampires. I don't have the issue in front of me, but I believe Dawn was killing the New Vamps with a crossbow in the fist arc of season 10, somebody was using a crossbow to kill vamps when they had their first big fight with Archeaus, and Angel suggested a crossbow during the crossover. Also, one of the aunts used a crossbow to pin one of the new-vamps to a wall when he was in bat form.

I'm not sure why you think a crossbow wouldn't be able to pierce a New vamp. Can you think of an example from either of the books where a crossbow has failed? Just because the New vamps have tougher chests than the old vamps (then again, a tissue box seems to be tougher than the chests of the old vamps), doesn't mean that they can withstand a crossbow. A crossbow can pierce armour. Check Youtube to see how much kinetic energy crossbows have. The power behind them is huge. I have no idea why you're having trouble believing that a crossbow can kill a New vamp.



* In A&F S9, we see that a not-insane Drusilla was no longer a threat to the world. In BtVS S8, we see that Angel is still a world-ending danger even when cursed.

Doesn't matter if she's a threat to the world or not. The morality in the Buffyverse for treating vamps seems to be that they can be killed on sight. Buffy has frequently killed vampires who have done nothing wrong (yet), she's killed them before they can step out of the grave, Angel in season 2 wanted to kill Darla before she could even open her eyes. Buffy killed the vampire prostitute who wasn't harming anyone and was in the process of running away just because Buffy was jealous about her feeding on Riley. The death of a vampire isn't usually treated with any sort of dignity, with characters often making quips before and after killing one, torturing information out of them if need be, captured and used as training dummies, experimented on etc. And I don't think we have ever seen a vampire killed in a manner which would be seen as a humane way to execute a human criminal. Doesn't matter if Drusilla was a threat to the world or not, according to the morality system that the Buffyverse has been operating on since day one, she's a soulless vampire and can be justifiably killed for no reason at all.

And that's looking at her in season 9 when she wasn't actively killing anyone with her own hands and teeth.

What she was doing in season 9 (and I know you'll disagree) was using cheap, quick-fix solutions to deal with people's trauma in a way that I feel is morally questionable and not at all healthy. Then she was releasing the people supposedly under her care back into the population after the Lorophange demon had fed from them, and sometimes they were homicidal and not ready to be released. Basically, she was providing mental medical care that she was not qualified to give, and if I recall correctly, some people died as a result. I think it's morally wrong to absolve Faith from her guilt over killing that professor she killed, I'm of the opinion that if you *murder* somebody, then carrying around the guilt from that for the rest of your life should be the bare minimum you should have to deal with. So no, I don't think it's right that Drusilla was able to just remove guilt from people like that. Also, she tried to sic the Lorophange demon onto Angel against his wishes. Removing Angel's guilt and trauma would have likely removed his soul as well. Angel was forced to kill the Lorophange in self-defense, and Drusilla went crazy again and killed a Slayer. All of this was during season 9 when Drusilla was supposedly sane and "good", following Harmony's rules.

Let's look at her now in season 10. Who cares if she's not a threat to the world in season 9 when she's sane? I'd argue that she was still a danger due to the "care" that she was providing people, and as a soulless vampire she can still justifiably be killed on sight. In season 10, which is right now, she IS very much a threat to the world. She's insane and is killing people again. Killing her in the here and now would be commendable.

And yes, you can argue that Angel should have been killed at the end of season 8. But the time to deal with that... would have been in season 8. In the here and now, he's NOT being a current threat to the world, and he is helping people.


BTW, your standard regarding whether Drusilla can be killed can apply to most of the characters in BtVS and in AtS. There are reasons to kill all of the following: Angel, Faith, Spike, Buffy, Willow, Giles, Xander, Oz, Koh, Illyria, Fred, etc.

The only one on that list, currently, who can be killed with the same absolute moral clarity that applies to Drusilla and all other soulless vampires is Illyria. And that's if you can separate her from Fred first.

I'm wondering what you think Buffy, Giles, Xander, Oz or Fred have done that puts them at the same level as Drusilla? The two that really make me scratch my head are Fred and Oz, two of the sweetest, most innocent characters we've met. What have they done that would make it justifiable to kill them? Is it because they have a condition they can't help which they do everything in their power to manage and minimize the possible threat to others? Maybe think hard before you answer this one.


Anyway, I remember you and vampmogs seeming to somehow try to equate Spike’s putting his cigarette out in an urn of Alasdair’s to what Angel did in BtVS S8; so, obviously you’d glom onto Drusilla’s siring several students as somehow kill-worthy and not consider that Angel should have been killed after BtVS 8.39.

Why does EVERYTHING with you have to come back to Angel being Twilight in season 8? No, I don't believe I ever did suggest that Spike putting out his cigarette in Alisdair's urn was as bad as Angel's stint as Twilight. I think I did comment on it being a generally shitty thing to do, which it is. Every time one of your favourites does something bad, you always have to say "well it wasn't as bad as Angel being Twilight" as though this somehow excuses them.

If in next issue of Buffy, Xander walks into Buffy's apartment, drops his pants and takes a shit right on her living room floor, I'll probably comment on it and mention that it's deplorable behaviour. No, its not even nearly as evil as Angel putting on a mask and getting hundreds of girls killed, but taking a dump on somebody's floor is still pretty despicable in and of itself. Not everything has to come back to Angel. I'm not going to use Angel's Twilight actions to make excuses for other characters terrible behaviour.

Lighting a cigarette in somebody else's house without permission is a shitty thing to do. Putting out your cigarette on their property is even moreso. No, it doesn't mean you deserve to get killed for it or compared to a mass murderer. But it does mean you should judged a little for it, even if you're a fictional character and are being judged through a comic book page. If you're the sort of person who lights cigarettes in other people's houses and ashes it on their stuff, I don't think you should be killed for it or compared to Hitler, but you should perhaps reconsider your behaviour towards other people. I might have judged Spike a little for his rude behaviour towards Alisdair, but I don't think it would even make the list of top 100 bad things Spike has done. Probably wouldn't even make the list of top 10 bad things he's done post-soul.

Now Drusilla hasn't merely ashed a cigarette on other people's property, she's *killed*, like a dozen or so students and is currently working for the big bad. Absolutely I'm going to "glom onto" the idea that she should be killed for this.