PDA

View Full Version : my first time watching BTVS & AtS



Cassiopeia
11-07-15, 04:16 AM
just to begin: i'm still watching BTVS/AtS (just finished s5 of 'buffy' and s2 of 'angel') so pretty please do your best to keep me out of the loop in terms of spoilers for upcoming episodes/plots that i have yet to watch. thank you so much!

ok on 15 june 2015 (yep, this year) i decided to give BTVS a shot. after enjoying the two other joss whedon projects i've watched (firefly/serenity, dr. horrible), and being told numerous times that i would love buffy because the writing is so well-written. i decided, against my aversion to weird vampire/demon makeup (which is initially what kept me from watching buffy in the first place, and was one of the -stupid- reasons why i stopped watching 'angel' in the first place, the other was they killed doyle, and i loved doyle), to give an episode a try. i told myself that if the first episode of 'buffy' didn't entertain me enough, or make me want to watch the second episode, that i would just not watch it. well... i think the first night i watched 'buffy' i wound up watching 4 or 5 episodes in a row. so i chose to keep on going, and as of last night i finished 'buffy' s5, and 'angel' s2 (watching both series at the same time as per this website's suggestion: http://buffyfest.blogspot.com/2009/04/buffyangel-episode-watching-guide.html (and i'm so glad someone told me about this order or episodes because i feel it enhances the overall btvs/ats experience, and i would have hated to not have that experience on my first watch).

i should also quickly mention that i convinced my sister (we live together) to watch btvs/ats, and i'm rewatching with her, we finished s2 of 'buffy' tonight, and the girl is hooked. i knew she would like it! ha! (this is a big win on my part, she made fun of me for a few weeks when i was the only one watching it).

if i had started this thread when i began watching the series i probably would have typed out comments on all the episodes, but since i'm fresh out of s5/s2 i've decided to make general comments about the seasons as a whole, and comment specifics on episodes that, imo, stand out as amazing.

also a note: my shift key doesn't really work on my keyboard so most of the time i will type in lower case, sorry about that.

even though buffy is nearly a 20 years old series, i feel that it is still very fresh. fresh style of writing, some episodes feel directed like works of art (the body), and the acting is far superior of what i expected out of such young acting talent. (granted all i really saw of SMG was her stint on 'all my children' and 'ringer' - i have to say she's amazing in btvs). and DB, omgosh: angel vs angelus - i love watching him play both roles because they are polar opposites of each other, again, amazing.

favorite characters: ALL! but if i had to say specifically, at this point, i have to say that angel is my absolute favorite, followed by spike, yes, those two are my favorites. then probably willow, buffy, xander, giles, cordy, etc. there are so many characters, and they're all so well-written that i don't even know where to begin. i know in my intro post here i said i didn't really care for drusilla or riley, but they've grown on me. i adore dru now, riley is still ok, but i think once we learned that he was letting vamps feed on him, that was the moment i was like "this guy's awesome! (in a weird kind of way)".

'ships, i think i'm going to forever be an angel/buffy OTP kind of girl. they won me over at a couple different moments 1) in 'what's my line' when angel tells her he doesn't want her to touch him when he's got vamp face going, and she tells him she didn't even notice and continues to touch him. 2) 'surprise' when angel gives her the ring and before they have sex he tells her that maybe they shouldn't (thus respecting that maybe she/they aren't ready for that next step), 3) 'becoming' his soul is restored, and they do the 'i love you' thing, and she runs him through - he saw her there with that sword, he may have considered that maybe they were fighting each other, and he trusted her when she told him to close his eyes, and then her reaction to having killed him once his soul was restored. kill me now 'ship, just kill me now. and let me not forget 'i only have eyes for you' when only angel/buffy can stop the ghost from recreating the murder/suicide over and over again, this 'ship just tears my heart out and stomps all over it without a care in the world (and i love it!). 'amends' (check out my signature for my favorite moment of that episode) - incase i type too much, here it is: "If I can't convince you that you belong in this world, then I don't know what can." and then there's cloud cover and a miracle snowfall. i don't often get teary-eyed, but this 'ship gets me teary eyed. and of course angel showing up for prom :wub: i knew s3 would sorta kinda be the end of consistent angel/buffy moments, but let me get into 'i will remember you'... we all know what went down there, he's human, she's in LA, hesitant to be together, give into love/passion, and of course true happiness with no consequences. then angel decides to take it away, and only he remembers. please tell me (but really don't) that eventually buffy will remember what transpired between them in that episode. it breaks my heart that angel remembers, and she does not. then how angel came to be with her: support/comfort in 'forever' after her mom dies. this 'ship will be the end of me.

other 'ships that i love: xander/cordelia, oz/willow, willow/tara (omgosh yes, willow/tara!), xander/anya, giles/joyce (even though this one didn't really happen), angel/darla, spike/drusilla, and if dawn was a little older i could probably go for ben/dawn (and again if she was older: spike/dawn), wesley/cordelia

i'll be honest and i only know from conversations with a fan over ten years ago that for sure angel/buffy and spike/buffy are two of the main popular 'ships in the fandom (and apparently there's some dramatics that go hand-in-hand with fans of those 'ships, for the record i'm cool with whatever 'ship anyone wants to 'ship - my original fandom is 'the x-files' and in that one i was on the unpopular 'ship 'ship: doggett/scully (when most of those fans are mulder/scully, and it got bad, traumatic really, but i've healed from that experience and know that 'ships are 'ships are 'ships, we all like different things, and i am a multi-shipper in any fandom i'm in so pretty much if i like both characters involved i'll 'ship them lol). i'm even ok with riley/buffy, for what it was, and to me it did feel like a rebound kind of 'ship. i just feel that buffy is always going to love angel whether they're together or apart, and i feel he is the same way. the way i approach any 'ship (or character) is that if it enhances the story/plot, and progresses characterization, it's all good (whether the 'ship is unhealthy or healthy).

i am curious to know what 'ships y'all love from these series (did i mention i'm creeping up on considering angel/cordelia in AtS? but in that maybe it could work, but maybe they're in that 'friends zone' and it wouldn't kind of way), oh and i loved doyle/cordelia too.

favorite episodes:
angel, hallowee, lie to me, what's my line (1/2), surprise/innocence, passion, i only have eyes for you, becoming (1/2), beauty and the beasts, homecoming, revelations, lovers walk, amends, bad girls, enemies, earshot, the prom, wild at heart, pangs, hush (another one of those 'pieces of art' episodes), this year's girl/who are you, superstar, the yoko factor/primeval, restless (what was up with the cheese guy!? lol)

going to pause here to say that in s4 BtVS it felt 'awkward', perhaps that was what was intended: first year in college, new life, new everything. but for me i felt that the lack of angel in BTVS hurt the series, i feel that he was an integral part of the first three seasons, and not having him in season 4 as a regular/recurring character took smthg away from the series, and that there was just an artistic struggle to find another "smthg" to fill the void he left behind. but that could also just be because angel is my favorite character. i don't know, how did you guys feel when season 4 first aired on TV, on your first watch of the series? i'm curious to know how s4 was received without such a key player involved.

more favorite episodes:
buffy vs. dracula, real me, the replacement, no place like home, family, fool for love, shadow, into the woods (was actually the first episode where i went 'huh, i kind of like riley/buffy, well i guess that's that!' lol), triangle, checkpoint, blood ties, crush, the body (this is "art", i think i was in tears/bawling throughout the whole episode, i had to watch it a 2nd time to process everything - amazing ep, one of the best hours of TV i've seen), forever, intervention, tough love, the weight of the world, the gift.

angel favorite episodes:
in the dark (ok so buffy wanted angel to have the ring: gave him ability to see sunlight, can't die - she was trying to protect him even though they weren't together, have i mentioned that this 'ship is going to kill me?), rm w/a vu, bachelor party, i will remember you (*sniffle* why must angel be the only one to remember this...?), hero

ok quick note. i actually watched AtS s1 when it first aired on TV, a friend of mine convinced to me to give it a shot, and well DB is easy on the eyes so i watched. doyle quickly became my favorite character of AtS, and when they killed him off, i didn't have it in me to continue watching. i think i did finish watching s1, and i remember them moving into the hotel in s2, but nothing after that. but i did watch some eps of buffyverse during their original air dates :) anyway, continuing:

parting gifts (i nearly peed my pants and broke an ankle when wes showed up in this one, seriously giddy through the entire episode, i love wes!), somnambulist, i've got you under my skin, the prodigal, the ring, five by five, sanctuary, war zone (GUNN! I ♥ GUNN!), to shanshu in LA (this was the one where we find out that it's possible that angel could become human later down the road, right? please tell me, but don't tell me, that at the end of AtS angel becomes a mortal human, but really DO NOT tell me), are you now or have you ever been (1950s angel = *swoon*, i watched this episode twice too), dear boy, guise will be guise, darla, the shroud of rahmon, the trial (omgosh! 'ship me some angel/darla! he was willing to die to save her! i love this guy! love him!), reunion, redefinition, the thin dead line, reprise, epiphany

ok going to comment here again, in 'epiphany' angel sleeps with darla, soul remains in tact. to me, and i'm hoping this was the writers' intention, that says that he can only lose his soul if he achieves true happiness. with darla he was thinking it was the sex that removed his soul, he (erroneously) believed that sex/feelings from sex were the happiness. when in actuality it was a combination of love, intimacy, trust, respect, and sex (love making) with buffy that he achieved true happiness which removed his soul. this is another one of those moments that convinced me that angel/buffy is my OTP, he truly loves buffy and was able to experience all those emotions with her because of love.

disharmony, over the rainbow

more comments: the last four episodes of s2 are kind of weird for me, probably because they travel to a demon dimension, they were fun episodes, but not mind-blowing kill-me-now-wtf?! episodes. BUT... angel experiencing the light of day, outside, looking up at the sky at the sun, and feeling the warmth of the sun on his skin. DB is able to take angel from a serious (oftentimes brooding), trying to find a balance of serious and attempting to be fun/funny, and turns angel from all of that into this childlike innocence of enjoying a moment/sensation for the first time. moments like that just are so touching, and yet break my heart because this character - once back in the earthly dimension - cannot enjoy something so simple that humans take for granted.

the last two eps of AtS s2 are fun, not sure i'd list them as favorites though: princess cordelia is a hoot, angel appearing as his demon's actual appearance was interesting (oh! oh! and angel seeing his reflection in a mirror! PRICELESS! makes fun of his own hair lol!), and then willow there at the end to tell him about buffy's death.

and that's where i stand, i'll be starting s6/s3 tonight (just a couple episodes, i have to get up somewhat early tomorrow morning). so i best be on my way.

feel free to comment to my comments, and add your own comments about episodes. i'm so new to this fandom that the only thing i knew coming into it was that in the past there was some dramatics between angel/buffy 'shippers and spike/buffy 'shippers, which begs me to at least comment on the spike/buffy 'ship (that i've seen so far)...

i like the idea of it, but at the same time i don't. i love that spike has these feelings for her, has fallen in love (lust?) with her, and will do anything to protect her and dawn. but on the other hand, what pushes me away from committing 100% to the 'ship is that he's stalkerish about it. stealing photos, clothing, having a buffybot made. i cannot get behind a 'ship where it is stalkerish, and this is based off of my own personal experience with having a stalker who wanted a relationship with me, and i did not. granted, spike is awesome and i love him so very, very much as a character - and his behaviour toward buffy and dawn (and even joyce) is commendable, but the stalker thing turns me away from fully accepting spike/buffy as a 'ship. i have no idea how things play out past season 5, i'm curious to see what happens, but i'm also not positive anything can change my mind about the 'ship. i guess we'll see, at least it's fiction :)

i'll be back later to post more comments as i head into s6btvs and s3ats :) thank you for reading!

Stoney
11-07-15, 09:28 AM
Hey Cassiopeia, you are making great progress through the series. :D

I love how enthusiastic you are about the show and thoroughly approve! :biggrin1: Nice job getting your sister roped into watching too. I didn't watch BtVS for all those years because I thought the idea of SMG as a kickass fighter was stupid, totally the blinkered kind of view that the show throws out!! Now five years on I'm watching it for the third time and loving it still. As I remember, when I first watched S4 I thought that it was very much a transitioning season. They were wanting to change the setting to keep the characters moving onwards, growing up, and it was almost 'right' that it felt awkward and not settled during that. Angel having left was obviously a biiiiig part of that so yeah, his absence was definitely felt but in a way that aligned with where the story was at.

Personally I thought it was right that he moved on. I did ship Bangel in the early seasons but, for me, they had gotten to a point where the relationship was stagnating as they couldn't be all that they wished they could be for each other. Now we are on different stances in one sense in that I really dislike the 'love forever' schtick where someone is pedestaled as if you can't grow further and beyond that relationship. Not to undermine it, Buffy and Angel mean a hell of a lot to each other and it is understandable that emotions don't stop for someone and you may never feel the same way about other people. But I think that is just because you aren't the same person. Buffy will always have a specific first love for Angel that is separate/different to what she feels for others going on but that is as much about her innocence at that time and what it meant to her then, how she processed it and understood it then, than meaning noone else can ever mean as much. If they become/became a couple again it would need to progress and evolve in itself to match the people they had changed into inbetween. If you see what I mean. :confused3:

On the Riley front. I liked his character when he was first introduced and then he and Buffy got together and I can't stand them as a couple. Other ships... a future relationship that occurs in S7 and Buffy/Riley are the only two ships of the show that I really dislike. I loved Willow/Oz lots and was so disappointed in how he left. I got that it was a really difficult time for him but he showed a lot of disregard for Willow that I was annoyed with him over (particularly considering what had just gone on with *spits* Veruca before he left). Spike/Dawn is all kinds of wrong to me, he is, if anything, brotherly towards her and, as you say, she is much too young so that it would be pure creepiness as is. I am a Spike fan first and foremost but do ship Spuffy, but I can't say much about what happens there without spoiling for you so I will wait to see what you think going on. I do think he loves Buffy, it is just within the bounds that he is capable which in some respects is admirable by human standards (his protection of Buffy/Dawn) and in others really isn't something to swoon over! The stalker side of it is a great example so I understand where you are coming from and you have to see it within the context of him as a soulless being that doesn't have the human boundaries to 'get' why a lot of what he does isn't OK. His displacement from his own kind and yet his wish to belong play a huge part in his behaviour. The Buffybot for example was a whole special level of urrrgh but it also showed how desperate he was to be accepted, appreciated and wanted. He dressed her up as a super cliche of a 'good' girl and had her worship him and still also tried to make believe she was herself (programming her to know about her friends etc). The fantasy wasn't about her as an animated sex toy, it was about Buffy loving and wanting him. So yeah, it's complicated and that is why Spike is my absolute, bar none, favourite fictional character. I just love how coherent his arc is in his time in the series.

Other favourite characters. Angel, definitely. I think what I love about him is how hard he finds it to walk the line between the two sides of himself. S2 on AtS is a great one for showing that inner turmoil. I love that there is coherency of character between him souled/unsouled and that you can see the same character traits manifest in totally different ways. We see with Harmony that some vamps don't change so much but really that just comments on them as a human, ha! Spike is driven by his emotions as William or as a vamp. Whereas Angel reacts to himself in totally different ways. His evil self takes his analytical mind and his love of art and turns it into a drive to pull about people's lives in a way he sees as 'artistic'. His souled self contains himself in a broodiness and turns his mind towards his inner contrasts, battling the demon that still resides with his souled moral boundaries and he uses his analytical side in the investigative role he takes and he surrounds himself with art that he appreciates for the beauty others created. I just love the complexity of the swing in how his personality manifests in both variations of himself. I agree with you that they show that the perfect happiness is about more than just sex, which I had always thought it was personally. Buffy's acceptance of him and belief in him were major parts of why he lost his soul.

I adore Wes. He is probably my second favourite character across the two shows (Spike, Wes then Angel I think). There is another character in AtS you haven't met yet that I would possibly rate as high as Wes/Angel although that person misses out just by being around less and having a less developed overall story. I also adored Doyle but didn't really like the Doyle/Cordelia stuff just because they didn't have time to sell me on her stopping being snooty with him before he was gone *sniff*.

On BtVS I like Willow's overall character arc a lot because it is well developed and I am coming to appreciate Xander more on the current rewatch we are doing here. You are well ahead of us because we are only at the end of S4 but, as I said before, we talk about the whole series so you would unfortunately get spoiled if you joined. As we only watch one episode a week and at the rate you are storming through the show though you will no doubt be able to join us soon. :)

S6 is my favourite season so I will be interested to see how you feel about it.

Sosa lola
11-07-15, 09:50 PM
I really enjoyed reading your enthusiastic review on the show and wish that you'll enjoy the rest of it. You still got two more seasons of Buffy and three more of Angel. And if you're still interested you can catch the S8, S9 and S10 comics of Buffy.

Also, how fun it is to watch the show with your sister. I've watched BtVS with my sister - in our case she was you and I was your sister, I needed a little bit more convincing to watch the show. Vampires and demons aren't my thing. But the show is far more than that and that's what makes it great.

Cassiopeia
20-07-15, 02:21 AM
i don't have time to ramble on about the eps i've recently watched (but i will get back to do that asap), just wanted to pop in to acknowledge you guys. i just finished 616 "hell's bells" (and the last 'angel' i watched was "waiting in the wings" - and yes, fwiw, angel/cordelia is growing on me very quickly). with 'hell's bells'... i think BTVS just killed one of my favorite 'ships... i absolutely adore xander/anya... i'm going to have to see what happens next, but it doesn't look good for them (i could cry).

and also, i know i said i didn't much care for riley, but um... when he showed up in 'as you were'... i was thinking: "ok, spike/buffy, i can see where fans are coming from with that, but i'm not too attached to the idea of them as OTP, and since angel is off in LA, and he's getting these feelings for cordy, maybe riley/buffy is actually the best possible OTP for buffy in the end" and then SMACKBOOM riley is married!!! gah! i don't think 'ships can really have a fighting chance on these shows lol (and it's evil of the writers, but i'm enjoying it).

i'll be back with more comments later, things hectic at work (seriously, the last week was like i was plopped down in the middle of an episode of 'dateline'), i need to try to get as much sleep/relaxation before tomorrow as possible.night!

Stoney
20-07-15, 03:11 PM
Cordelia you are referencing things that Cassiopeia probably hasn't seen yet in S6 and referencing S7... even in the general tone of Spuffy through the season I would also argue is spoilery of the events of that season in that he returns and they make amends.

And separately, Spike didn't rape Buffy he attempted to rape her and failed. I'm not saying that an attempted rape is acceptable but it was all part of the negative mutual abuse of S6 and it is what happened, not rape. The point of Spike's loss of control there was him realising that he couldn't ever be what he was trying and walk the line he thought he could. He has later in the comics realised that his love of Buffy as a soulless vampire was a selfish bastardisation. Sure he loved her, as far as he was able, but it was within the boundaries of being soulless. Spike's soulless behaviour is as demon driven as Angel's is. To suggest that Spike is essentially William just acting on resentment is nullifying the demon side of him as a vampire totally and that really doesn't match the reality of the character at all. The actions both Spike and Angel take as soulless vampires they wouldn't take when souled and that is still with the demon in residence. There is continuity in both of their characters from their human selves to being a vampire and then through to being a souled vampire. That doesn't mean they have to act the same anymore than any other complex characters with different motivations and personalities would. Angel acted on resentment and hurt towards his father when he was turned, Spike tried to save his mum. But William would never have thought killing her was OK, that was the demon's warped version of what you would do if you 'loved' someone. But as Darla pointed out to Angel when his family were strewn around him that was also love. It was a violent act of the pain Angel had felt in not gaining his father's approval in his life.

Cordelia
20-07-15, 08:27 PM
I'm aware of what I referenced and I didn't give detail. To be harshly honest Cassiopeia chose to be a part of this community before finishing either of the series but I did try my hardest here. (and I didn't know about the spoiler tag capability at this forum though that would still defeat the purpose, this is their discussion).

As for Spike...well for a first try at defending him...yeah I really was trying to defend him which is outside my norm, I still think it had some substance. I shouldn't have made any comment on where his sadistic behavior stems from, that isn't actually relevant to my argument, so for that I apologize. what I'd meant to say was that because he'd remained that same gentle mama's boy after being turned his ability to love was still there.
My understanding of him is just coming into shape, other than two season three episodes my initial watch-through of BTVS is still my only. While I enjoyed it, I kinda prefer AtS.

Stoney
20-07-15, 09:28 PM
I'm aware of what I referenced and I didn't give detail. To be harshly honest Cassiopeia chose to be a part of this community before finishing either of the series but I did try my hardest here.

I'm sorry but Cassiopeia opened a thread where she specifically said that she was in the process of watching and stated where she was up to. This thread is for her to discuss the show without spoiling unseen episodes for herself. The event you mentioned, even with incorrect detailing, is episodes ahead of where she said she had watched up to so it is a specific spoiler. Referencing any of the next season's interaction is in itself a spoiler and you did state generally the dynamic achieved through the course of the season. Only mentioning facts pre Hell's Bells is the only 'safe' way to discuss with consideration for the poster's request for the thread. I'm not wanting to start a row with you, I was mentioning that you hadn't met the request, which was reasonable, because you hadn't.


As for Spike...well for a first try at defending him...yeah I really was trying to defend him which is outside my norm, I still think it had some substance. I shouldn't have made any comment on where his sadistic behavior stems from, that isn't actually relevant to my argument, so for that I apologize. what I'd meant to say was that because he'd remained that same gentle mama's boy after being turned his ability to love was still there.
My understanding of him is just coming into shape, other than two season three episodes my initial watch-through of BTVS is still my only. While I enjoyed it, I kinda prefer AtS.

I appreciate that AtS is more your show and it doesn't give a great account of Spike to get to know the character. Spike's focus on love was a major aspect of his personality, a real motivation for him and it remained so after he was turned. The love itself though was what he was capable of as a soulless demon, it was warped and so wasn't 'William' in the way it presented but 'William' in the way that it was a driving force in his choices, if you see the distinction I'm getting at. Sometimes he got it right by human standards and achieved more than you would anticipate of a soulless being but he was restricted within his own intentions by the selfish focus that it ultimately had.

I am certainly no expert when it comes to these shows. I'm only on my third watch of BtVS and second of AtS in the current rewatch. Everyone has their own readings of characters, scenes, episodes etc and I have certainly been in the position of changing my view when someone else corrects facts I had misremembered or gives a different understanding that makes me reevaluate and sometimes it doesn't. I apologise if my tone came across as blunt. It is easy to misjudge how something might read on the receiving end.

Cassiopeia
20-07-15, 10:15 PM
hey all! got off work a bit early today, thought i'd pop on here before i have to figure out what to eat for dinner :)

cordelia:
no worries about what was said with regard to eps i haven't seen :) it wasn't much (and i tend to have a very short-term memory, which is why i'm quickly going through BTVS and AtS so that i don't forget things from ep to ep).

with regard to riley/buffy, i think i came to a liking of that relationship the moment he took off in the helicopter and buffy ran to try to see him (i forget the name of the episode at the moment). it was buffy's desperation/heart-on-her-sleeve approach to chasing after riley that turned me to more positive of that relationship.

my favorite rivalry in BTVS/AtS is that of angel vs. spike. i keep hoping for more episodes that crossover the two series for more angel/spike interaction, but i've read that since BTVS moved to UPN during s6 that crossovers btwn the two series are very, very rare.

spike/buffy... i can 'ship it in a one-sided kind of way. i completely see that spike is actually really in love with buffy. i don't doubt that for a second. and from what i've seen of spike/william's past (in the episode 'fool for love', iirc) he's a kind-hearted/heart-stomped-on romantic anyway (and a bad poet). and what i like about spike being in love with buffy is that it is his true self as he is in the present, he didn't need to be cursed with a soul to be able to love (and i'm convinced as of where i'm at in both series that angelus's demon self/without a soul isn't capable of loving), but angel with a soul is capable of love (which is why i like seeing him develop feelings for cordy, and of course my 'shipping of him with buffy - which i think i will always have a soft spot for even if both characters have moved on, appreciate what they once had, changed).

years ago, before i started my first watching of these shows, i had read that spike raped buffy. i don't think i have come upon that episode yet (and if i had, i don't think i saw a rape scene - what ep is it? you can tell me since i know that it happens). my knowing that has also been in the back of my mind when i watch the relationship/friendship develop between buffy and spike. and even though where i'm at in BTVS at the moment i can see that buffy is using spike to find comfort/pleasure in her life after being brought out of heaven, i think i can also see that true feelings are developing for her with regard to spike (but i think she is afraid of admitting this/facing this herself). it's an interesting dynamic, and though i'm not 100% supportive of spike/buffy i can completely appreciate what the relationship is bringing to the series and the progression of both characters, and i love that.

when i began watching the series i had the impression that vampires were essentially kind of the same, but as you pointed out with angel/angelus not being a standard, and seeing spike (and dru and darla), vampires are their own individual characters as well.

i look forward to learning more about spike, he's tied with angel as being my favorite character of these shows :) i keep wishing there was a 'spike: the series' spinoff, but that's not to be :(

i *never* would have 'shipped angel/cordelia when both characters were on BTVS, and probably not even in the first season and a half of AtS, i can't remember when i started leaning towards that 'ship, but by "waiting in the wings", i'm just about 100% there (and then the groosalugg shows up! grrr! and cordy cut his hair and dressed him in angel's clothes - which, if you ask me, is her indirect way at making someone she isn't afraid to love and/or make love to, into the person that angel is (if that makes sense). and angel kills me again with letting the audience know his feelings for cordy, then sending her off with groos - and then spending time with connor, saying that he's not alone.

and what you said, the natural development and close bond, is what captures me about their 'ship as well. and angel the dork is wonderful!

stoney
on netflix 'angel' graphic shows both angel and spike, so i'm staying positive that perhaps once BTVS is over that spike makes many more frequent appearances on AtS *fingers crossed* i love those two characters so much! i have to say that i'm so glad that i found a list of episodes to help guide me through watching BTVS/AtS at the same time, for me the two series are blending together as one. i can tell that AtS seems more mature than BTVS, and i think that's because buffy is a story of growing up/learning lessons of life, whereas with AtS, angel has lived for 240+ years and his story isn't that of growing up, but rather redemption. sure AtS has cordy, and she's gone through quite a growing up transformation (happy to see that, i loved her in BTVS and all, but her immature young self was not my favorite type of person).

and fwiw, i just started my sister on s4 of BTVS and s1 of AtS, but she's been feeling under the weather so it's very slow moving with her, i think this past weekend she only watched one episode of each series lol she's not the TV marathoner that she used to be (also i think she's much more interested in playing a 'star wars' online game, she's had an addiction to that since '12 - it's hard to get her off it). her favorite character is spike, as i knew it would be. 'lovers walk' made her 100000% a spike fan :) coincidentally that was also the ep that made me just fall in love with the character.

so glad i could convince her to watch the shows too :) if only her 'star wars' game would go offline. if only... lol

Cordelia
21-07-15, 07:47 AM
cordelia:
no worries about what was said with regard to eps i haven't seen it wasn't much (and i tend to have a very short-term memory, which is why i'm quickly going through BTVS and AtS so that i don't forget things from ep to ep).


Please understand that I spent a lot of time on that post (about an hour including disctractions and relocating my laptop) and truly felt that I wasn't giving anything significant away but that is ultimately up to you. It's what you got from my references that dictates whether or not I was out of line. I'm learning from this that in the future maybe I should stay out of discussions where it is requested not to spoil. I really appreciate your graciousness.


with regard to riley/buffy, i think i came to a liking of that relationship the moment he took off in the helicopter and buffy ran to try to see him (i forget the name of the episode at the moment). it was buffy's desperation/heart-on-her-sleeve approach to chasing after riley that turned me to more positive of that relationship.


That's a scene that is among those I remember clearest and I see what you mean. That did give their connection a bit more realism. Now that you have me thinking about it that might have been the moment Buffy actually realized that she really had feelings for Riley. Whereas he'd started out as a rebound, a sexual outlet that wouldn't try to kill her afterward. I'm not so sure it was heavily reciprocated though, his paranoia over her relationship with Angel got unhealthly out of control and you could tell that there was no taking the military out of him.


i *never* would have 'shipped angel/cordelia when both characters were on BTVS, and probably not even in the first season and a half of AtS, i can't remember when i started leaning towards that 'ship, but by "waiting in the wings", i'm just about 100% there (and then the groosalugg shows up! grrr! and cordy cut his hair and dressed him in angel's clothes - which, if you ask me, is her indirect way at making someone she isn't afraid to love and/or make love to, into the person that angel is (if that makes sense). and angel kills me again with letting the audience know his feelings for cordy, then sending her off with groos - and then spending time with connor, saying that he's not alone.


Holy crap you are totally up in my head! Unfortunately yeah, 'Waiting in the Wings' was their peak and Cordelia's as an individual character, you'll start to understand that as you get into season 4. Know this though, a lot of what you'll see in season 4 is Joss Whedon having thrown a fit because Charisma had been noticably pregnant during that time. A certain concept was written in specifically because she was pregnant. She herself hated the direction Cordelia went in and was extremely uncomfortable performing a particular part of the storyline.

As for Groosalugg showing up, that exact moment is pretty much when Cordelia peaks and I always stop the episode at that point, I refuse to watch it. The fact that she ran into his arms in the middle of Angel pouring his heart out is something I'll never understand. It's like who the hell let Sunnydale Cordelia back in? And I agree that she basically made Groosalugg into a curse free Angel whom she felt was more interested in her romantically, though I don't believe she realized it. See I have this headcanon which this is actually some evidence to support that she unknowingly kept herself in denial of her feelings for Angel because she felt she could never mean to him what Buffy did. In my book that was totally unfounded because she had a stronger effect on him than Buffy did and it's tragic that she never sees that. And while with Groosalugg it bugged me deeply that she never noticed how much it killed Angel to see her with him, to not be the one holding her, the one recieving her adoring expressions and her kisses.
I almost feel guilty because I don't really feel badly for Groosalugg since he really wasn't a bad guy and didn't really do anything wrong...other than show up anyway, but Cordelia really belonged with Angel. Charisma has even said so.

Going back for a moment to you saying that you wouldn't have shipped them back in seasons 1 or 2. Season 3 truly is their strongest season as far as their bond goes and their increasing realization that they have feelings for each other. There are moments in the first two seasons that are special between them and in which you can tell that Angel feels something deeply for her but you are pretty on target that back then, particularly back in season 1, it was more of a brother and sister relationship that they had. I'd say however that he'd truly come to realize what she meant to him in the season 1 finale 'To Shanshu in LA' when he'd thought he'd lost her to that psychotic vision episode.

To be honest it's diffcult for me to pinpoint when I'd started shipping them. I'd actually started with AtS first, but was still in the first season when I switched to BTVS because the Faith arc (or was it a single episode?) had too many crossover references I didn't understand. I admit Bangle got me very briefly while I was in BTVS but I can tell you this, it didn't take Cangel long to pull me away from them once I was back in AtS.


my favorite rivalry in BTVS/AtS is that of angel vs. spike. i keep hoping for more episodes that crossover the two series for more angel/spike interaction, but i've read that since BTVS moved to UPN during s6 that crossovers btwn the two series are very, very rare.

Correct that the crossovers between BTVS and AtS characters for the most part stopped when BTVS changed networks. There is a crossover Angel makes to BTVS which is actually not seen on screen. It's right after Angel is told that Buffy was resurrected but other than that nothing is known of the visit. It's spoken of only for a moment in AtS as when prompted Angel shrugs it off. There may have been a smiliar reference in BTVS where Buffy also shrugs it off but I only remember the AtS one for certain.

Not to worry, though you'll enjoy season 5 of AtS. ;) I enjoyed it more than I actually expected, I even had my reservations about watching it for reasons I'm not able to discuss which weren't unfounded but still it was pretty well done otherwise.

Stoney
21-07-15, 09:04 AM
spike/buffy... i can 'ship it in a one-sided kind of way. i completely see that spike is actually really in love with buffy. i don't doubt that for a second. and from what i've seen of spike/william's past (in the episode 'fool for love', iirc) he's a kind-hearted/heart-stomped-on romantic anyway (and a bad poet). and what i like about spike being in love with buffy is that it is his true self as he is in the present, he didn't need to be cursed with a soul to be able to love (and i'm convinced as of where i'm at in both series that angelus's demon self/without a soul isn't capable of loving), but angel with a soul is capable of love (which is why i like seeing him develop feelings for cordy, and of course my 'shipping of him with buffy - which i think i will always have a soft spot for even if both characters have moved on, appreciate what they once had, changed).

I don't think it is that straightforward because as I said, Spike is motivated by love. Vampires are in part made of the human they were, which is why there is always personality continuity and Spike may still be focused on being loved but it is with a demon in the driving seat as an unsouled being and so it is a selfish love. Sometimes it has a great result. Protecting Dawn's key identity from Glory was because he didn't want to see Buffy hurt because that is something that he relates to showing love for someone but it doesn't mean that his love for her isn't more focused on what he wants and feels. Angel also feels love as a vampire, which was what Darla's point was to him when he killed his family, that the same love infects their hearts. Angel may react to it all destructively, but he only killed his father and wanted to 'beat' him because he was still affected by his dad's disappointment. So it isn't true to say that Angel doesn't feel love as a vampire, he just doesn't treat it as a positive thing to seek but something to violently reject. The emotions a vampire feels are affected by their demon, I always think of the demon as taking the human personality and warping anything positive as well as adding aggression to anything negative. But all vampires have continuity from their human and Angel has personality traits that are evident across all his 'variations', they just show in different ways and to different extremes. It is his continuity and complexity that I like the most about him.

I liked Spike and Angel together in BtVS but I found that Spike in AtS is affected by Angel being the protagonist. Spike stays in character (mostly) but his more impetuous and juvenile side is exaggerated which kind of results in a dumbed down version of him.

Cordelia
21-07-15, 09:44 AM
I liked Spike and Angel together in BtVS but I found that Spike in AtS is affected by Angel being the protagonist. Spike stays in character (mostly) but his more impetuous and juvenile side is exaggerated which kind of results in a dumbed down version of him.

You make a valid point, and I didn't appreciate at times how the rivlry, particiularly in season 5 would bring out some incredibly juvinille behavior in Angel after he'd matured throughout the series. It may have been funny at times but wasn't really substancial and was unhealthy for character growth.

@Cassiopeia FYI, if you ever feel like I am revealing anything you don't appreciate you can ask me to leave the thread and I'll oblige.

Cassiopeia
25-07-15, 12:05 AM
cordelia,
seriously, no worries about your posts :) nothing huge was given away.

i'm starting s4 with my sister this weekend, and i'm curious to see how my reaction to riley and riley/buffy will be after my new-found appreciation for his character and the relationship he has with buffy. i'm thinking that it's possible i might actually like the 'ship on second viewing.

right now i have two more episodes of 'angel' season 3, and i have finished 'buffy' season 6. bolding to catch the eye of anyone replying or thinking of replying.

i'm a little uncertain about season 3 of 'angel'. i like the series, but season 3 feels a bit disjointed. part of this, for me, could be that there was a baby plotline going on. i've never been a fan of pregnancies/babies in shows that i watch (even stopped watching some series because of this). i had a hard time wanting to watch the episodes where connor was a baby. having said that... i LOVE angel as a father. i think it suits him very well, and i'm glad that he was able to have that very human experience (one he never could have had with buffy or any other human girl for that matter). i guess something good came from darla being around lol

when i got to the episode where they're talking about the destroyer arriving, seriously it never even crossed my mind that it could be connor (even though, IIRC, it is canon on buffyverse that time goes by differently in different dimensions). my jaw dropped when teen connor said "dad" to angel (and then it broke my heart that angel didn't get to raise his own son, gaaaah!).

i'm still not sure how i feel about connor/steven (or was it steve?) on the series. the whole connor/angel-as-a-father thing sounds good "on paper", but for me i'm not sure it's going to hold my interest (and because of that i'm kind of hoping teen connor goes back to holtz, and they go back to wherever they came from - sorry, angel!!!).

i like that cordy is back now, even though groos is with her, but i see that groos is catching on that angel means so much to cordy, and that she loves him (be that romantic love or platonic love, doesn't matter). i feel bad for groos, he seems (blindly) devoted to cordy, but that doesn't convince me that his love is the kind of love that lasts. i'm curious to see how that triangle plays out.

- - - Updated - - -

stoney,

i've finished s6 of 'buffy' and before i got to that last scene where spike is told he's getting his soul back, i was hoping to see that chip removed from his brain, and then he's on this destructive thing of 'kill buffy', and i wanted to see him all determined to kill her, and then on seeing her realize that he loves her, and even without the chip he doesn't want to hurt her.

which brings me to... the *attempted* rape scene. heading into that episode, for years i had been under the impression that spike actually raped buffy. good to see that he didn't, and he stopped, but at the same time his actions suggested that he wanted to take her in the moment, and he could have, but he stopped. i like how this scene was written, most tv shows/movies just go straight to an actual rape, i don't think i've ever seen a show push it so far, but then stop before any actual violation had happened. it makes analyzing it, and reacting to it (and spike) a very different experience, it makes you think: what percentage of spike was actually an intention to flat out rape buffy, and what percentage of him just didn't realize what he was doing?

i think spike actually looked shocked/hurt that he had scared/hurt buffy, and my interpretation of his facial reaction to what he almost did told me that he didn't intend on raping her ever. he just wanted her to feel how much he loves her, and until buffy had tried to fight him off her, yelled at him to stop, etc. he hadn't realized his own actions. is that the demon in him (the demon that is capable of hurting her now that she's come back from the dead)? or is that his human side coming through? or is it both?

- - - Updated - - -

ok other comments i have about the end of 'buffy s6: i've been hoping and hoping that jonathan was going to help buffy out and stray from being 100% (though i never felt he was 100%) behind warren and andrew. when jonathan helped buffy i was all "woo!" *pumps fists in the air* "i knew he'd 'scoobie' up!" lol

but umm... tara... she and willow just get back together and um... warren shoots buffy and another bullet goes high through the window and freakin' kills tara?!?!?!?!?!? wtheck!?! and before i have a chance to bawl my eyes out over that one, willow goes all dark side witch on me. i mean, holy sh*t! the last two episodes of 'buffy' s6 gave me chills!

willow is probably my favorite female character of the series, and i love the progression her character has gone through: innocent geeky girl to badass/wants to end the world wicca! *the* moment it was said that a human could stop her/save her, i *knew* it was going to be xander! when she was at that temple she summoned out of the ground and xander showed up, omgosh! tore me to pieces, i've gone through an embarrassing amount of kleenex watching some of these episodes lol i cannot wait to see what happens in s7 (the final! *cries* season of btvs). i want to know where willow goes after all she's done. she's killed, and she's hurt people she loves (and i LOVE that giles showed up, the whole 2nd to last episode of the season i was saying -out loud and to my self- giles has to show up, he will know how to help willow - and then he did!).

and spike, omgosh, spike, going through these trials, thinking he's going to get that chip removed from his brain, and at the end he's told he's getting his soul back. i guess he should have specified what he meant when he went there to go back to how he was before. holy crap! it's killing me that i haven't started s7 yet (but i'm waiting to start it until after i finish 'angel' s3).

how will spike react to having a soul and knowing/feeling all that he's done through his vampire life? what will happen with willow? is giles going to stick around and not go back to england? will i get any more great angel/buffy scenes? (they're still my favorite 'ship of both series, even if i stray and like other buffy and angel 'ships). and dawn seems to be quite a good little fighter too :)

Stoney
25-07-15, 03:16 AM
stoney,

i've finished s6 of 'buffy' and before i got to that last scene where spike is told he's getting his soul back, i was hoping to see that chip removed from his brain, and then he's on this destructive thing of 'kill buffy', and i wanted to see him all determined to kill her, and then on seeing her realize that he loves her, and even without the chip he doesn't want to hurt her.

which brings me to... the *attempted* rape scene. heading into that episode, for years i had been under the impression that spike actually raped buffy. good to see that he didn't, and he stopped, but at the same time his actions suggested that he wanted to take her in the moment, and he could have, but he stopped. i like how this scene was written, most tv shows/movies just go straight to an actual rape, i don't think i've ever seen a show push it so far, but then stop before any actual violation had happened. it makes analyzing it, and reacting to it (and spike) a very different experience, it makes you think: what percentage of spike was actually an intention to flat out rape buffy, and what percentage of him just didn't realize what he was doing?

I think a lot of it was tied into the kind of relationship that they had generated, it was pretty mutually abusive and aggressive. But mostly it was about his desperation to be accepted again. Spike falsely believed that in letting him physically into her life Buffy was accepting him more than she ever had previously and so he wanted to regain that relationship position with her and 'access' her feelings for him. It was desperate and no, he didn't think about what he literally was doing until he finally noticed her reaction.

This is for me where the writing becomes brilliant. Because let us not forget that Spike was a soulless vampire and had murdered and raped before without qualms. His internal torment is brilliant in that crypt scene as he rants because he has failed himself, he stated he would never hurt her but that is what he just did. But at the same time he is questioning why he didn't do it. He is torn. Why does it bother him when it shouldn't, he is evil, but it does and he is distraught because he finally realises the inner discord. He is neither man nor monster and he was wrong that he can draw and walk the line because he failed himself here and also is battling his lack of conscience and instincts by even noticing/caring.


i think spike actually looked shocked/hurt that he had scared/hurt buffy, and my interpretation of his facial reaction to what he almost did told me that he didn't intend on raping her ever. he just wanted her to feel how much he loves her, and until buffy had tried to fight him off her, yelled at him to stop, etc. he hadn't realized his own actions. is that the demon in him (the demon that is capable of hurting her now that she's come back from the dead)? or is that his human side coming through? or is it both?

That is the inner discord and turmoil, so both demon and man are in play.


and spike, omgosh, spike, going through these trials, thinking he's going to get that chip removed from his brain, and at the end he's told he's getting his soul back. i guess he should have specified what he meant when he went there to go back to how he was before. holy crap! it's killing me that i haven't started s7 yet (but i'm waiting to start it until after i finish 'angel' s3).

Nah, Joss confirmed that Spike was never going to get the chip out. He said in a panel that he had 'invented' a plot twist. Jane Espenson has also talked about it since too as the soul gain always being the intent. I think they overplayed the mislead and they even told JM false info so that he played it wrong to mislead the audience, but Spike was always going to go and get his soul. This isn't a spoiler because it wasn't supposed to be a surprise that was later revealed to the audience, the moment he got his soul was supposed to be in itself the 'reveal' moment of his true intent, but you aren't alone in being too firmly misled by how they went about it. It is a shame that they flopped such a key moment, but heyho. If you think about it Spike could already hurt Buffy, getting the chip out made little sense as a goal. I understand why Joss wanted to keep it a secret but it muddled the moment a little for a lot of fans. Enough so that even after they confirmed in interview that Spike was always going on a soul quest some anti-Spike fans still refuse to believe it which is pretty funny when the creator/writer has specified exactly what their intent was to clear up misunderstandings.


ok other comments i have about the end of 'buffy s6: i've been hoping and hoping that jonathan was going to help buffy out and stray from being 100% (though i never felt he was 100%) behind warren and andrew. when jonathan helped buffy i was all "woo!" *pumps fists in the air* "i knew he'd 'scoobie' up!" lol

I love Jonathan's story from his first appearances all the way through. As a side character he has a brilliantly cohesive arc.


willow is probably my favorite female character of the series, and i love the progression her character has gone through: innocent geeky girl to badass/wants to end the world wicca! *the* moment it was said that a human could stop her/save her, i *knew* it was going to be xander! when she was at that temple she summoned out of the ground and xander showed up, omgosh! tore me to pieces, i've gone through an embarrassing amount of kleenex watching some of these episodes lol i cannot wait to see what happens in s7 (the final! *cries* season of btvs). i want to know where willow goes after all she's done. she's killed, and she's hurt people she loves (and i LOVE that giles showed up, the whole 2nd to last episode of the season i was saying -out loud and to my self- giles has to show up, he will know how to help willow - and then he did!).

S6 is just amazing and I can never express how much I love it. It actually had me out of my seat and yelling at the tv at points when I first watched it. It was a 'stay up all night and watch each episode back to back because I can't bear to leave the story' moment for me. Willow has an incredible story and I really enjoy it. I have to say though that one of the things that I love the most about this series is how much more you can keep appreciating it. I'm only on my third watch for the rewatch we are doing here and I am learning different aspects of the character/stories I had never noticed or contemplated before. I respected Cordelia a lot more in BtVS this time around and I am really enjoying Xander's story when I am paying more attention this time too. But Spike will always be my guy.


how will spike react to having a soul and knowing/feeling all that he's done through his vampire life? what will happen with willow? is giles going to stick around and not go back to england? will i get any more great angel/buffy scenes? (they're still my favorite 'ship of both series, even if i stray and like other buffy and angel 'ships). and dawn seems to be quite a good little fighter too :)

Time will tell. :biggrin1: I am looking forward to you seeing S7.

Cordelia
25-07-15, 04:16 AM
i'm a little uncertain about season 3 of 'angel'. i like the series, but season 3 feels a bit disjointed. part of this, for me, could be that there was a baby plotline going on. i've never been a fan of pregnancies/babies in shows that i watch (even stopped watching some series because of this). i had a hard time wanting to watch the episodes where connor was a baby. having said that... i LOVE angel as a father. i think it suits him very well, and i'm glad that he was able to have that very human experience (one he never could have had with buffy or any other human girl for that matter). i guess something good came from darla being around lol

I'm with you. I've seen the whole petistaled pregnancy/baby in at least three other supernatural shows: Charmed, Being Human UK and Ghost Whisperer and not one of them did it tastefully.

Going into it I was way annoyed with the idea of their introducing a baby to AtS. Right at the moment Darla is revealed to be pregnant my mind shouted "Angel you idiot! What have you done?!" This is gonna sound really cruel and for that I am sorry, but when she showed up almost ready to pop at the Hyperion I'd kinda hoped something would happen that would kill the baby off while still in the womb. >_<

Connor did grow on me though and the thing I really appreciated is that he actually wasn't taken in the distasteful direction those three aforementioned series did of him having these never before seen extordinary abilities and being prophosied to have some huge impact on the fate of the world. To me that just screams gimmick. Adding him to the dynamic brought the team closer together as a family and provided a significant turning point in Angel and Cordelia's realationship. It's heavily implied that Angel considered her Connor's mother figure and in the roles of parents they became more involved with eachother and more intament. So their bond and feelings for each other grew stronger. Angel as a father was just ADORABLE, Connor and the sense of humanity that he'd brought to Angel's life was like him getting the Shanshu which was really sweet.

Though the whole 'Father will kill the son' arc is where I drew the line. That's when I started to feel Connor turning into one of those gimmicks and the way Wesley handled that whole thing really unsettled me though I appreciate the dark place it took his character. Another thing I didn't like about it is that Cordelia was not there because Angel had sent her on that vacation. That was just way wrong on both ends.
With the frustration of losing Fred to Gunn still stewing in him, I do understand why Wesley felt there was no one he was comfortable approaching but I believe Cordelia would have made all the difference had she been there. She, I believe he would have confided in because she was the one person whom he hadn't felt unimportant to/betrayed by nor was she the object of his concern.

Damn Groosalugg!


i'm still not sure how i feel about connor/steven (or was it steve?) on the series. the whole connor/angel-as-a-father thing sounds good "on paper", but for me i'm not sure it's going to hold my interest (and because of that i'm kind of hoping teen connor goes back to holtz, and they go back to wherever they came from - sorry, angel!!!).


Ugh, Teenage Connor. If only he'd gone away or gotten killed!

Admittedly I do understand why they couldn't keep him a baby, it would have gone nowhere and the attention a small child requires might have started taking away from the storyline but while Joss Whedon has stated that he felt it would become uninteresting if Buffy were to remain happy for too long which probably applies to Angel as wel, I'm sure this could have been handled more tastefully. In a lot of ways Holtz was an interesting and gripping villian but I didn't like his involvement with Connor.

Seriously, I urge you not to give up on AtS. I can sense that season 4 might be hard for you (It was for me and I think it was for most fans) but there are actually a few well-done areas that are worth the watch and I really think you'll enjoy season 5.



willow is probably my favorite female character of the series, and i love the progression her character has gone through: innocent geeky girl to badass/wants to end the world wicca! *the* moment it was said that a human could stop her/save her, i *knew* it was going to be xander! when she was at that temple she summoned out of the ground and xander showed up, omgosh! tore me to pieces, i've gone through an embarrassing amount of kleenex watching some of these episodes lol i cannot wait to see what happens in s7 (the final! *cries* season of btvs). i want to know where willow goes after all she's done. she's killed, and she's hurt people she loves (and i LOVE that giles showed up, the whole 2nd to last episode of the season i was saying -out loud and to my self- giles has to show up, he will know how to help willow - and then he did!).

That scene between Xander and Willow when he pulls her out of ultimate evil mode really captured me. Probably the best moment in season 6. It really highlighted their bond and the fact that it was the words "I love you" that reached her suggested (well to me anyway) that Willow's romantic feelings for him might still be deep inside her somewhere though she's a lesbian. But yeah I know, there can be a friendship kinda love too and that's more likely what it was. I'm a little too much of a romantic sometimes.

For me, I'd say 'Normal Again' in it's entrity is probably one of the most well done episodes in season 6 though it's unsettling. There were also some really great performances in 'Once Again with Feeling'. From the moment I'd first heard it I was so captured by Anthony Head's (Giles) voice, his and Spike's numbers were my favorites.

Cassiopeia
26-07-15, 05:19 AM
quick popping in (will reply to your posts later, promise!) to let you know i'm about to start season 7, and it kind of hurts knowing that this is the final season.

rewatched 'i will remember you' with my sis' tonight, and that reminded me HOW MUCH i want/need buffy to remember those 24 hours that she had with angel when he was human. ok, going to go get this started!

Cordelia
27-07-15, 03:31 AM
quick popping in (will reply to your posts later, promise!) to let you know i'm about to start season 7, and it kind of hurts knowing that this is the final season.



Actually, technically it's not, there are at least 3 more seasons in the form of comics. ;)

Cassiopeia
02-08-15, 06:42 PM
are the comics good? like true to the series and its characters? i only ask because i read 'the x-files' season 10 comics and was unimpressed overall, and if the comics -in any way- tarnish the tv series, i think i'd rather not read them. of course if this is joss then it's probably a gazillion times better than x-files so perhaps the btvs/ats comics are worthwhile?

ok so quick popping in to say that i just finished 'angel' s4 episode 'awakening', and that ending is one of the most cruel episode endings i've ever experienced. i'm all oh good cordy and angel are together, the beast was killed, connor seems to accept that cordy loves angel, wes is back with the gang, and while cordy and angel were getting it on i'm thinking, ok maybe because she was a higher power any 'happiness' achieved for angel won't matter, or maybe because after he came back from hell in btvs with his soul that means that the gypsie curse wasn't what gave him his soul that time around, but then again if it is still the gypsie curse then doing this with cordy might not be the most responsible thing in the world... then he freaks out, and IS ON THE TABLE IN THE CAGE AGAIN!!!! omgosh! i mean, oh. my. gosh. and i had to stop watching because i have things to do today. (but as much as an 'oh shit' moment that was, and i didn't want angelus back... i loved that moment, brilliant. evil brilliance. i can't wait to get back to watching tonight.

with 'buffy' the last ep i watched was s7's 'storyteller' (what an unique perspective for an episode - a few years before SPN did smthg similar with those 'ghost facers' guys). i'm loving buffy s7 though, and i have a theory on how the show will end (don't tell me if i'm right or wrong though)... we have all these potential slayers in sunnydale, any one of them could take over buffy's place if she should die. i'm thinking that in the end buffy will die, and that we will be told who the next chosen one is. at least that is what i would do if i were in charge of story direction.

regarding spike. it is interesting to watch him deal with having a soul. with angel we didn't get to see first hand how he handled newly having a soul again. we get to watch this happen with spike. i really, really like that. and i have to say... despite all the creepy, stalkery, rape-y attempt things that spike did to buffy, i think i'm growing to sorta kinda 'shipping them. not in the same way that i 'ship angel/buffy (which is still my favorite buffy 'ship), but in a different way. it's hard to explain. i think it's because spike wanted to get his soul back FOR HER, and that came after his rape attempt (which was unintentional). i feel he wants to turn off the demon inside of him so that buffy might come to love him in the way that he loves her. it's very complicated, and complex, but i get it, and i like it. it's very insightful to his character (a guy who scoffed at angel with a soul, now has gone and won his soul back).

and yes, absolutely, positively, YES. i'm on board the angel/cordelia 'ship 100% what i like about that 'ship is that it developed out of friendship, not mystery. they both knew who the other person was/is, and still fell in love. if angel's vision from 'awakening' is any indicator, his love for cordelia is actual love (not just sex, as i think we've touched on before with angel/buffy sex vs. angel/darla sex - and actual love being the trigger for him losing his soul). when the chinese shaman said that the vision became reality and he became angelus, it was his love for cordy and them expressing their love with each other that rid him of his soul. i also like that angel/cordelia isn't as dramatic as angel/buffy, while i appreciate some good angst, i also enjoy watching a fictional relationship that isn't so dramatic/dysfunctional. i will always love angel/buffy though, but i think i can love it as equally as i love angel/cordy :)

- - - Updated - - -

just curious, how rare is a btvs/ats fan who 'ships angel/buffy, angel/cordelia, and spike/buffy pretty much equally? i love being a multi-'shipper it makes viewing a series so much better because instead of being stuck on one specific 'ship "for life", it allows me to enjoy every aspect of characterization and relationship development in a series. i'm loving all the 'ships that are on these shows. i seriously love them all

Stoney
02-08-15, 07:02 PM
I liked Bangel during BtVS 1-3 and I do appreciate them for those early years and what it meant for them both but it was eclipsed by Spuffy for me. So I do appreciate Bangel past but don't actively ship them as a couple after S3. I hear of people not caring much about ships at all, but actively shipping and appreciating multiple ones with the same characters I'd say is pretty rare, but I've not been around fandom so long so I may be talking nonsense. :)

The comics I can't say much about until you have finished the shows because I don't want to spoil you. In general I would say that I read S8 all in one go because I only found out about the comics when that had finished and I enjoyed it well enough. S9 was poorly done and S10 is an improvement. After S9 I lower my expectations as the comics clearly will not hit the same writing standard and be as layered as the shows. The way I look at it is this, the comics for me give a viable rough continuation for the characters individually and their dynamics with each other. I can see them getting from where they were in the shows to where they are now in the comics. The execution isn't superb, isn't even good at some points, but as I 'believe' in the overall rough paths that we are seeing I'm still interested in it as a continuation. If that made sense? :s

Cordelia
11-08-15, 03:03 AM
are the comics good? like true to the series and its characters?

I've barely read into the second issue (and am unsure I care to continue) so I'm not able to answer this.

My limited knowledge of the 'After the Fall' series which is essentially the 6th season of AtS is actually too detailed for you right now. I don't have a problem with spoilers because I'm not sure I'll be reading them (and even I did plan to it could take quite some time before I could get my hands on them) so I went looking for some of it.
Most of the details I have are actually in the several opening events so once you finish season 5 it might not be such a spoiler, feel free to shoot me a message if you want to know then.

There is also an 'Angel and Faith' series of which I know absolutely nothing except what the title gives away, that Angel and Faith become a team.



ok so quick popping in to say that i just finished 'angel' s4 episode 'awakening', and that ending is one of the most cruel episode endings i've ever experienced. i'm all oh good cordy and angel are together, the beast was killed, connor seems to accept that cordy loves angel, wes is back with the gang, and while cordy and angel were getting it on i'm thinking, ok maybe because she was a higher power any 'happiness' achieved for angel won't matter, or maybe because after he came back from hell in btvs with his soul that means that the gypsie curse wasn't what gave him his soul that time around, but then again if it is still the gypsie curse then doing this with cordy might not be the most responsible thing in the world... then he freaks out, and IS ON THE TABLE IN THE CAGE AGAIN!!!! omgosh! i mean, oh. my. gosh. and i had to stop watching because i have things to do today. (but as much as an 'oh shit' moment that was, and i didn't want angelus back... i loved that moment, brilliant. evil brilliance. i can't wait to get back to watching tonight.


That's pretty much the typical reaction of those who support Cordy and Angel as a couple. This was how it made me feel:
http://blog.swiatlyebiznes.pl/SwiatlyEbiznes/images/7166/brak-wynik~~w-w-marketingu-internetowym.gif
(and I WAS literally streaming it on my laptop via one of those illegal, pain in the patookie hosts XD)

If you recall this was actually the SECOND time Cangel fans get punked, the first was Skip's marvalous timing in 'Tomorrow' while Cordy was on her way to confess her love to Angel! Real class act you are, Joss! Still though, the sex scene was hot in spite of Charisma's obvious discomfort in some moments of the bed portion due to her pregnancy (which is totally understandable).
What is still loveable about that episode though is that Angel's presence in that fantasy was very real, you have to remember that it had been stitched from what Angel desired most so his intentions, his actions, his feelings were all real. It was here more than ever that his truest feelings for Cordy were on display, that he deeply loved her and more than anything wanted to spend his life with her and to have a family with her and Connor again.

Angelus has to be my favorite villian in either show, I loved him in BTVS, 'Passion' is one of my favorite episodes. That humanly psychotic twisted thing is brilliant and David absoutely owns it (and Angel's emotions of course), in a lot of ways just with his eyes. He's got this astounding ability to communicate his characters' thoughts just with his eyes.
Here I loved him at first, the cage was used brilliantly to give him a Hannibal edge, but where it progresses I can't stand nor can I make sense of. 'Orpheus', the climax episode of the arc is pretty worth it though.
I'm anxious to see what you'll think.

You seem to be going in between the two shows pretty closely alongside each other, so perhaps you won't need this advise but it's valuable. Finish the 7th season of BTVS before watching the 5th season of ATS, that's what I was told to do and I'm grateful. The 5th season of ATS not only makes more sense after the 7th season of BTVS but actually contains significant spoilers of BTVS's finale.


I liked Bangel during BtVS 1-3 and I do appreciate them for those early years and what it meant for them both but it was eclipsed by Spuffy for me. So I do appreciate Bangel past but don't actively ship them as a couple after S3. I hear of people not caring much about ships at all, but actively shipping and appreciating multiple ones with the same characters I'd say is pretty rare, but I've not been around fandom so long so I may be talking nonsense.


I can concure. At this point I can still appreciate Bangel as that typical first love and a necessary life expierence for them both but it took pretty much NO time and NO effort to convert me to Cangel. 'Convert' as in yeah I'll admit it, I was very briefly a Bangel fan because I hadn't gotten through the first season of AtS when I watched the first 3 seasons of BTVS. Now, however I pretty much can't stand them.

vampmogs
11-08-15, 08:16 AM
Season 8 of BTVS, as I've been told is regarded as horrible by not only most fans but critics as well to a point at which Joss Whedon actually had to publically apologize for it.

With all due respect, whoever told you that has greatly exaggerated. Here is Joss Whedon's letter at the end of S8;


"The Endless Season : Wrapping up Buffy Season 8

So, our endless season ends. We’ve laughed, we’ve cried, we’ve thrown up a little in our mouths, but most of all we’ve learned. Not you guys—us. We’ve learned what you like, what you don’t, how this TV show translated to the world of comics, and how it didn’t quite. We’ve lost a few fans along the way and, hopefully, gained a few. I can’t say exactly how much has changed, in our lives or our work. The only thing that’s certain is this : all of us involved in this venture, without exception, have weirder-looking hair.

If you’ve read this issue, you’ve got a sense of where we’re heading for Season 9. Back, a bit, to the everyday trials that made Buffy more than a superhero. That made her us. I was so excited to finally have an unlimited budget that I wanted to make the book an epic, but I realized along the way that the things I loved the best were the things you loved the best : the peeps. The down-to-earth, recognizable people. And Mecha-Dawn. (She has a tail !) So that’s what we’ll try to evoke next season—along with the usual perils, and a few new ones, of course.

Every season of Buffy had a different intent, and a different set of challenges, from which to build. The biggest challenge in Season 8 was that many years ago I wrote a Slayer comic and set it in the far future so that it could never affect Buffy’s life. I was so young. But the challenge of reconciling the optimistic, empowering message of the final episode with the dystopian, Slayerless vision of Fray’s future gave Season 8 a genuine weight. There is never progress without hateful, reactionary blowback. That’s never been more apparent than in today’s political scene in America. The mission was to deal with the consequences of Buffy and Willow’s empowering spell (the good and the terrible), steer toward a possible Fray future without undoing all the good Buffy had done (the girls still have their power), and tee us up for a very different Season 9. Some adjustments had to be made along the way, particularly when I completely changed my plan for Season 9. I changed it for the reasons stated above. No matter how interesting the world stage or mystical dimensions can be, Buffy’s best when she’s walking that alley, dusting vamps, and nursing a pouty heart. We’re not going back to square one, but our square will definitely have a oneishness to it. It should be nice, after the wild ride that was Season 8—not always perfect, but made with love and delight that I think shine through.

The people who need to be thanked really deserve more than just thanks—but we’re all too scattered for the inappropriate touching required to convey my gratitude and occasional awe. Scott Allie is why there are editors. Smart, patient, pushy when it’s time to be pushy—straddling the minutiae and the Big Picture in a way any show runner would envy. Georges—no book without Georges. If I didn’t make the smoothest transition from TV to comics, he sure as hell did. He drew wonderful likenesses that never felt like portraits, and panels that were dynamic, funny, and emotional. . . . No one could have evoked the ethos of the show better. Jo Chen’s covers make me cry. I won’t say more, or I’ll cry.

If I start listing the writers, this will be longer than the comic. But Drew Goddard writes the stuff I wish I had. Brad Meltzer writes like he was on the staff for all seven years (and is a nut for structure, which helped more than I like admitting). Jane Espenson, Brian K. Vaughan. . . . Wait, didn’t I just promise not to do this ? Everyone brought such love and talent to the table, writers and artists and inkers and colorists and letterers and editors I’ve left in the cold (sorry, Sierra) in order to wrap this up. . . . The point is, this has been a long, strange trip, but it worked (when it did) because so many overqualified souls poured themselves into it. I’m grateful.

I’m grateful to the guys at IDW, particularly Chris Ryall and Brian Lynch, for handling the Angel series with such passion and hilarity, and for being kind and cooperative when I decided the two universes needed to be under one roof.

And I’m grateful to you guys, for coming on the ride. I promise it won’t get smoother. We’ve got a lot of new—and old—friends along, some new titles, and a bunch of limited series. . . . It’s nuts ; I’m exhausted by the end of Season 8. So why am I so giddy about Season 9 ?

Maybe I’m a fan.

—Joss Whedon"

At no point does he "apologise" for anything. He does acknowledge the criticims and where they went wrong but he also acknowledges what they got right and what he's proud of, and he states that S8 was made with "love and delight" that he believes shone through. Acknowledging fan criticisms towards a season isn't new. He did the same thing for S6 (which to this day he maintains he loves and considers his second favourite season) when a lot of fans reacted negatively to the dark subject matter.


My source of this feedback did call Season 9 an improvement and season 10 the most successful (so far? are more seasons intedended?). Even is spoilers weren't an issue this is actually all I've got.

This is all completely subjective but I find S8 to be incredibly better than S9 & S10. S9 in particular was absolutely dismal and killed a lot of fans enthusiasm for the comics.

As for what season was most "successful", it depends on how you measure success.

In terms of sales S8 was the most successful season of the comics by far. The sales of the comics have decreased consistently over 8 years but S8 was the most financially successful of the comic seasons by a wide margin. It's TPB's were also consistently in the New York Times Top 10 Best Sellers list, even when the sales of individual issues were decreasing, and were often #1 and #2 right through until the very end. I don't believe the TPB's for either S9 or S10 have made it into the list but I'd have to double check that.

If you measure success by fandom enthusiasm and participation then once again I'd say S8 was the most successful. Fan interest in the comics has died down considerably over recent years and was at its greatest throughout S8's run. It was really S9 which killed a lot of people's interest in the books and although S10 has been a considerable approvement fandom has never really recovered from that slump.

If you go back and look at the Dead Threads Section of this site you'll see that the comic section of Buffyforums used to be incredibly active. A thread for a new issue of S8 could have hundreds of comments and we'd have hundreds of threads dedicated to spoilers/speculation, fan theories, polls, Q/A's with the writers/artists/editors, shipping, fan metas and analysises etc. Dark horse boards were also very active at the time and were generally a mess due to being poorly moderated but fans would get into massive shipping wards and debate S8 quite intensely. On Whedonesque you'd have hundreds of comments on each issue as it came out. Slayalive was a very active board and would host Q/As with Darkhorse staff and the writers/artists which garnered a lot of interest with fandom and were pretty much a monthly event. Even LJ, which by far was the most negative corner of fandom when it came to the S8 comics, discussed the season a lot and fans would post their critiques every issue or write negative reviews, and throughout the 4 years often got into heated arguments amongst each other as there were some fans on there who enjoyed them and would debate their merits.

It wasn't until S9 that fan interest died down and the fandom became very small. Fans of S8 became very uninspired by the story of S9 and found that the quality of the comics had dipped considerably. And those who disliked S8, for the most part, continued to dislike S9 but couldn't muster the same kind of passion for the comics to even care about them like they did throughout S8. After around 9.06/9.07 interest in the comics waned and a lot of the discussion dried up.

S10 has been an improvement over S9 but S9 really killed off a lot of the fandom and it has never recovered. Now interest in the comics is not even a fraction of what it used to be back in S8. On Buffyforums we barley get two pages of discussion on a new issue and all the fan metas, speculations, polls and Q/A's no longer happen at all. On Whedonesque a new issue of S10 is lucky to even get 10 comments as opposed to the 100+ comments S8 used to get. The Darkhorse forums are a ghost town. Slayalive forums are about as active as Buffyforums and Slayalive has stopped hosting Q/As. And the LJ fandom is practically non existent these days (though in part due to most of LJ moving to tumblr now).

Whether you loved or hated S8 you cared about it. The story inspired people enough to speculate on it and become passionate about it. You'll hear a lot of people criticise S8 and act as if a lot of people didn't like it but there's a lot of fans who really did. A lot of the intense arguments in fandom occurred because there was a lot of fans who loved S8 and got into disagreements with those who did not. The story inspired a lot of people to write fanficton, or get into shipper debates, or argue whether the writing was good or bad, or review each issue as it came out, or speculate on who the Big Bad was or what was going to happen next etc. Now, don't get me wrong, S8 also benefited from being the start of the comic continuations so naturally interest was higher back then than after 8 years. But for 4 years S8 held people's interest and the fandom was rejuvenated by having new content to discuss. S9 and S10 simply have not managed to maintain people's interest and the creative teams have failed to create a story that got people excited or intrigued. As far as I'm concerned, hate is better than indifference because at least those who hated S8 cared about S8 and then there were a lot of us who generally enjoyed it. Sure, there were certain plot points that were pretty much universally disliked by everyone (mostly at the end) but there's also a big consensus that the first 19 issues of S8 were the best of the entire S8-S9-S10 continuation.

If you're measuring success by the quality of the writing? You can't. It's completely individual. As I said, if you ask me the writing was considerably better in S8 than it was in S9 and S10 and it boggles my mind that anyone can prefer the mediocrity we are getting now. I was one of the biggest supporters of the comics back during S8 but the writing in S10 and especially S9 left me so dissatisfied that now I barley acknowledge their existence. And whilst there are some fans who consider S10 to have the best writing I personally feel that if that were the case more people would be interested in it. But if you are measuring success by fandom's interest and actual sales then S8 is without a doubt the most successful season of the comics.

Silver1
11-08-15, 01:26 PM
Thing is I didn't care about it at all in the end. All it did imo was prove how poor Whedons writing had become since the show went off air. It's like he'd completely forgotten how to write the characters, and it didn't help that continuity wise (Warren etc) he actually had.

For me it was an embarrassing low point for the franchise. :(


Unfortunately my limited knowledge of the 'After the Fall' series which is essentially the 6th season of AtS is actually too detailed for you right now.

I liked After the Fall, in fact I thought that to date it was the nearest the comics have got to feeling like a real continuation of the TV show.


On Buffyforums we barley get two pages of discussion on a new issue and all the fan metas, speculations, polls and Q/A's no longer happen at all.

Well the ones on Slayalive are. In fact there's going to be one with Gauge after the next Buffy comic is published. :)

Cordelia
11-08-15, 06:45 PM
@Vampmogg (There is no way I'm quoting all that)
Perhaps my use of the word 'apologize' was my understanding wrong and I did make disclaimer statement that this was ONE third party person's feedback that I had gotten. I didn't try to judge myself without having read them, I made clear that I hadn't.

Area of post removed nonetheless.

vampmogs
12-08-15, 07:45 AM
Thing is I didn't care about it at all in the end. All it did imo was prove how poor Whedons writing had become since the show went off air. It's like he'd completely forgotten how to write the characters, and it didn't help that continuity wise (Warren etc) he actually had.

For me it was an embarrassing low point for the franchise. :(



I liked After the Fall, in fact I thought that to date it was the nearest the comics have got to feeling like a real continuation of the TV show.



Well the ones on Slayalive are. In fact there's going to be one with Gauge after the next Buffy comic is published. :)

Sue, I know you hate S8. You did nothing but tell me that on a weekly basis for literally years. I get it, believe me, I get it. I'm willing to discuss S8 with people who I haven't before but sorry, if you think in 2015 I'm still gonna get pulled into the same monotonous and repetitive discussions all these years later then you're sadly mistaken. We both know each other's opinions on the comics and there's no reason to retread them now.

Silver1
12-08-15, 01:42 PM
Well sorry that you think you've heard it all before. :)

Thing is the reason I still feel so strongly about it was because I actually felt kinda let down with 8 and how it ended and weirdly enough still haven't got over how disappointing it was. I honestly expected better. Or hell, something that (imo) felt like it was written in the spirit of the TV show, rather then what we got, which was rather off the wall.

God recently it was even listed in the top ten of most weird things to happen in a comic book series, so it's not just the hard core that found it a tad mad. :D

I mean come on, looking back don't you think part of the attraction was it was Whedon was writing for the verse again and that it was that they were falling over themselves to praise it half the time rather the actual content? That and the fact that they were maybe expecting it to be more complicated plot wise then what we actually got in the end?

Can you imagine If another writer had write/plotted that season ending instead of Whedon. Can you imagine the outcry?



If you measure success by fandom enthusiasm and participation then once again I'd say S8 was the most successful. Fan interest in the comics has died down considerably over recent years and was at its greatest throughout S8's run. It was really S9 which killed a lot of people's interest in the books and although S10 has been a considerable approvement fandom has never really recovered from that slump.


To be fair don't you think that part of was because it was a case of the 'shock of the new'? And as as the seasons carried on the novelty wore off rather and some people drifted away?

Also I have to say some fans became so dissatisfied by the end of 8 that they just walked away and never came back. I know a few people online that fit into the category. :)

Also did you not pick up on the Slayalive Q&A's still going on?

Cordelia
12-08-15, 11:22 PM
@Vampmogs
Alright so I've gone back and actually throughly read your incredibly enlightening post. It took me time because it was a lot to take in.


If you go back and look at the Dead Threads Section of this site you'll see that the comic section of Buffyforums used to be incredibly active. A thread for a new issue of S8 could have hundreds of comments and we'd have hundreds of threads dedicated to spoilers/speculation, fan theories, polls, Q/A's with the writers/artists/editors, shipping, fan metas and analysises etc. Dark horse boards were also very active at the time and were generally a mess due to being poorly moderated but fans would get into massive shipping wards and debate S8 quite intensely. On Whedonesque you'd have hundreds of comments on each issue as it came out. Slayalive was a very active board and would host Q/As with Darkhorse staff and the writers/artists which garnered a lot of interest with fandom and were pretty much a monthly event. Even LJ, which by far was the most negative corner of fandom when it came to the S8 comics, discussed the season a lot and fans would post their critiques every issue or write negative reviews, and throughout the 4 years often got into heated arguments amongst each other as there were some fans on there who enjoyed them and would debate their merits.

Actually since I've been at Slayalive (which is about two years) it's been their comic sections that have had the most activity which is a large reason I've been inactive there.
There is also a considerable amount of comic discussion still happening over at Buffy-Boards.
It seems 'Angel & Faith' currently has a considerable amount of popularity.


It wasn't until S9 that fan interest died down and the fandom became very small. Fans of S8 became very uninspired by the story of S9 and found that the quality of the comics had dipped considerably. And those who disliked S8, for the most part, continued to dislike S9 but couldn't muster the same kind of passion for the comics to even care about them like they did throughout S8. After around 9.06/9.07 interest in the comics waned and a lot of the discussion dried up.


Quality does logically tend to decline with time in any franchise because there is only so much that can be done with one until it starts reaching. Usually by that point there is an alternative motive; ratings, profit etc and it becomes very transparent in the content.

I'm not saying that's what happened here, over the past several years I've learned not to judge where I am not properly informed to but I've seen it before with TV series and I personally felt the storylines declining in BTVS while it was still on the screen post-third season. Season 7 particularly disappointed me what where all the intriuging build-up led to (PM me if you are interested in continuing this topic as this is a spoiler free thread, so this is all I can publically say). That might be why I have trouble finding potential in the comics.

Basically to sum it up, I wasn't too surprised to read your analasis that one season of comics was the fan limit. What was their reason for continuing into a 10th season if the 9th declined so much in response?


Whether you loved or hated S8 you cared about it. The story inspired people enough to speculate on it and become passionate about it.

I applaud this statement. I've never actually paid attention to that before, how a hated storyline inspires a lot of analysis, speculation and passionate debate just the same as those that were enjoyed. I see now that it is not a positive or negative response that matters but whether or not the work was worth a response at all. Thank you for opening my eyes.


If you're measuring success by the quality of the writing? You can't. It's completely individual.

Individual reader response to a series is everything because it either makes or breaks the sales of future installments.
If a reader wasn't gripped by elements of the writing; plot, charactorization, lingo etc in the first few issues they're not going to continue buying future issues. You said yourself that interest was lost in the 9th season, well wouldn't then reason for that be that there was a decline in the collective interest in the plot and possibly other elements?

A couple of years ago I begun reading a particular book series consisting of about ten installments which started out well-written for my taste but then when I got through the first two chapters of the 4th installment the characters had devolved into such immaturity that I couldn't stand it anymore. I not only stopped reading that installment but stopped purchasing the series. That's at least 6 books which I'm guessing probably totals to around $30-$40 in sales they lost from one individual who stopped liking the writing.

Sales may determine success but reader response determines sales. If we are talking about individual novels than a sale doesn't determine response to the plot, characters and writing style. I've gotten several books home that I'd eneded up tossing in the donation pile very quickly because I'd failed to get into them.

Writing quality IS individual opinion based, I've not denied that but when enough similiar individual responses come together to form a single majority response that can make a difference.

Now labeling an author/writer as either a good or bad writer is what can never be aboslute due to having an exclusively opinion basis.

For this reason I feel you were a bit harsh on Silver1. While I understand your frustration with hearing the same statements from the same person multiple times, this is a public thread and you weren't specifically targeted in the post. There are always going to be readers of each individual public thread who haven't heard their viewpoint yet. Cassiopeia, the starter of this thread, asked for opinions regarding the comics I am sure with the interest in recieving a varitey of feedback. So I think she'll appreciate Silver1's take just as much as yours or even my third party take.

For instanatce, I'd like to ask you after this very informative take on the BTVS comic seasons for your take on 'After the Fall'. Not that I'll be able to get my hands on them anytime soon but I've read about a handful of the opening events and am intrigued to possibly given them a try.

vampmogs
13-08-15, 01:34 PM
Actually since I've been at Slayalive (which is about two years) it's been their comic sections that have had the most activity which is a large reason I've been inactive there.

Oh I'm sure that's the case but my point was that in comparison to how they were back in S8 it is very quiet there now. Which is the same here. For many years our comic section was by far the most active and whilst we still have occasional posts it's a shell of what it once was. If you didn't come online for a day you had pages of posts to catch up on. Now you can be inactive for a week and you'll be lucky to have missed two posts. Slayalive still has some activity but it was much more active during 2007-2011.

The Q/A's are a great example of that. Back during S8 the Q/A's would be a monthly event and we would have a Q/A with both the editor and a separate Q/A with the artist of the comics. Slayalive moderators would have to limit fans to asking just one question because they had too many people wanting to ask questions. We would have Slayalive moderators post on Buffyforums asking members here if they would like to pass on any questions if they weren't also members of Slayalive. Now the Q/A's are not only very scarce but the amount of questions being asked has dropped considerably and it's usually just a handful of fans asking 1-2 questions each. We no longer have posts dedicated to the Q/A's on Buffyforums either as they no longer hold people's interest the way they once did. It's just a reflection of how unenthusiastic fandom has become about the story.


There is also a considerable amount of comic discussion still happening over at Buffy-Boards.
It seems 'Angel & Faith' currently has a considerable amount of popularity.

You may be right about Buffy-Boards as I haven't been on there in some time :) But for Buffyforums, Whedonesque, Darkhorse and Slayalive the discussion just pales in comparison to the level of activity we had during S8's run.


Quality does logically tend to decline with time in any franchise because there is only so much that can be done with one until it starts reaching. Usually by that point there is an alternative motive; ratings, profit etc and it becomes very transparent in the content.

Although there are exceptions I agree that this seems to happen a lot. In regards to BtVS, I actually think the quality is pretty consistent throughout S1-S6 and only drops noticeably in S7. What I love about BtVS is that no season feels the same and that the writers always tried something new. It makes it hard for me to compare seasons as they're all trying to achieve something totally different and are ambitious in their own way.

For example, I think S3 is very consistent when it comes to the quality of each episode. There are very few, if any, episodes in S3 that I would classify as 'weak.' However, in saying that I also don't think the arc in S3 is as emotionally compelling as S2, S5 or even S6's arcs. I personally love the Buffy/Faith drama but it doesn't really ramp up until later in the season and I don't think it ever quite reaches the heights of Angel losing his soul in S2 or Buffy losing her mother and then sacrificing herself in S5. And I personally adore Buffy's arc in S6 and find it so ambitious and probably the most honest depiction of depression I have ever seen on TV. It resonates with me more than any other arc in the series. So, whilst S3 may have a lot of above-average episodes I also feel it contains very few truly standout or exceptional episodes like an Innocence/Passion, or The Body/The Gift, or Once More With Feeling etc.

I think the comics are a very different animal because the creative teams have changed each season. To break it down quickly;

S8: The majority of the season was written by writers who worked on the show. Joss Whedon, Jane Espenson, Drew Goddard, Drew Z Greenberg, Doug Petrie and Steven De Knight all wrote issues or arcs in S8. We also had some veteran comic writers come on board such as Brian K Vaughn and Brad Meltzer. People responded very well to Vaughn's arc and some even consider it their favourite arc of S8, whereas almost nobody liked Meltzer's arc and consider it the low point of S8. We also had a standalone issue written by Jeff Loeb who was going to write the Animated BtVS TV and editor Scott Allie co-wrote parts of the final arc with Whedon. Joss Whedon himself wrote 2 full arcs and 6 standalone issues this season as well as a 3-page mini story called Always Darkest and the first issue of the final arc.

S9: This season was written almost entirely by TV writer Andrew Chambliss who had worked on Dollhouse and Once Upon A Time. Joss Whedon only wrote the first issue and then passed on writing duties to Chambliss for the remainder of the season. Editor Scott Allie stepped in to write an arc when Chambliss got too busy and Jane Espenson and Drew Z Greenberg wrote 2 issues. Chambliss wrote the vast majority of the season.

S10: This time Christos Gage (who had previously worked on Angel & Faith during S9) was given main writing duties for this season. He was joined by Nicholas Brendon to write 2 issues. Joss Whedon has written no issues this season and there are no plans for him to. There has also been no plans as of yet to have the other TV writers return.

Whilst the show had the same creative team (mostly) throughout the entire series the comics are handled by different people depending on the season. It's not surprising that they differ so greatly as we have different writers contributing to them. Personally, I think Joss wrote Buffy best out of all the writers for SS8/S9/S10 and Chambliss wrote her the worst by far. I think out of the TV writers Joss, Drew Goddard and Doug Petrie translated the characters voices to the page most successfully but I found Espenson to be a bit of a mixed bag in this medium. And out of the comic writers who had never worked on the show I thought Brian K Vaughn was BY FAR the best by a considerable margin.


Basically to sum it up, I wasn't too surprised to read your analasis that one season of comics was the fan limit. What was their reason for continuing into a 10th season if the 9th declined so much in response?

I think the comics are still profitable for Darkhorse. Darkhorse isn't a huge comic book company like Marvel or DC so BtVS is still considered their most successful franchise even if the sales have dropped considerably.


I applaud this statement. I've never actually paid attention to that before, how a hated storyline inspires a lot of analysis, speculation and passionate debate just the same as those that were enjoyed. I see now that it is not a positive or negative response that matters but whether or not the work was worth a response at all. Thank you for opening my eyes.

Yep that's pretty much my take on it. Love it or hate it S8 caught people's attention and that just cannot be said for S9 or S10. At the end of the day it wasn't the negative criticism that killed fandom it was the apathy. People who loved S8 couldn't wait to read the next issue to find out what happens next. People who hated S8 couldn't wait to read the next issue to tear it to shreds and debate it online. There's very few people even checking for a new issue now.


Individual reader response to a series is everything because it either makes or breaks the sales of future installments.
If a reader wasn't gripped by elements of the writing; plot, charactorization, lingo etc in the first few issues they're not going to continue buying future issues. You said yourself that interest was lost in the 9th season, well wouldn't then reason for that be that there was a decline in the collective interest in the plot and possibly other elements?

Yes that's true but I'm also weary of presenting my opinion on the quality of the writing as absolute fact. Ultimately, even if the majority of people hated S9 there'll still be a fan out there who prefers it to S8. No matter what I say will change their mind on that because what works for them does not work for me. But yes, I think the lack of interest in S9 & 10 is a reflection of the writing and that people are eventually going to have to admit that S8 was entertaining and intriguing regardless of your opinion on it.

I also disagree very strongly that S9 or S10 'feels more like the show' (something I see often) just because it resembles a more grounded setting rather than the OTT castles, Slayer Armies and humongous battles of S8. That's true to an extent but I personally feel the writing in S8 is far more reflective of the series than S9 & S10 have ever been. Characters could have both positives and flaws. The writers explored themes like corruption, redemption, power, loneliness, responsibility etc which were all very consistent themes throughout the series. The writing had actual layers and nuance. It could be funny or sad and had a wicked sense of humour but also a lot of poignant moments as well. And most of all it was ambitious which has not been the case for the comics in some time. The biggest complaint I have about S10 is that it's incredibly cookie-cutter and safe and that Darkhorse seem so burned by the polarising reaction to S8 that they now walk on egg shells around fandom hoping not to upset anyone. It's left the story very dull.


For this reason I feel you were a bit harsh on Silver1. While I understand your frustration with hearing the same statements from the same person multiple times, this is a public thread and you weren't specifically targeted in the post.

I'll PM you.


For instanatce, I'd like to ask you after this very informative take on the BTVS comic seasons for your take on 'After the Fall'. Not that I'll be able to get my hands on them anytime soon but I've read about a handful of the opening events and am intrigued to possibly given them a try.

I liked After the Fall well enough but I didn't enjoy it as much as S8. I think it started off very strongly but I became less enthused with it as time went on as it felt a bit hollow to me. The writer was Brian Lynch and he was a bit of a mixed bag for me. I think he nailed the characters voices in a way few writers have been able to do and that really made it feel like you were watching a continuation of the series. However, I do think he glossed over some of Angel's flaws (and I say that as an Angel fan!) and that he fundamentally misunderstood the Angel/Spike relationship. I think I would have looked back on After the Fall more fondly if it had ended differently as, without spoiling it for you, I think the ending completely negates the entire 17 issues of the series and renders the story meaningless.

To put it simply; when I was reading After the Fall I enjoyed each issue but since finishing it I have never felt the need to go back and re-read it. Whereas, I used to re-read each issue of S8 over and over again and have re-read the season several times over the years. I think that probably speaks to what season resonated with me the most but I do understand why people loved After the Fall. It's certainly far superior to BtVS S9/S10 or Angel & Faith.

Stoney
13-08-15, 02:07 PM
There is also a considerable amount of comic discussion still happening over at Buffy-Boards. It seems 'Angel & Faith' currently has a considerable amount of popularity.

Well that may reflect character preferences wherever you are going because BtVS is vastly outselling A&F still (at about 150%), even if interest in both has dropped. Both titles I believe continue to be top sellers for Dark Horse. Figures are difficult to gauge because they don't tend to include digital sales which you would expect to be a rising figure. I think we can certainly say with confidence that there is an astounding decrease in discussion of the comics as well as falling sales figures, definitely in those that are reported anyway.


Quality does logically tend to decline with time in any franchise because there is only so much that can be done with one until it starts reaching. Usually by that point there is an alternative motive; ratings, profit etc and it becomes very transparent in the content.

Well I just don't agree this happened with BtVS. I agree with vampmogs it was pretty consistent. I also think S7 dropped but I mostly place that blame on the potentials and The First waning. But Spike's arc across S7 and the development between him/Buffy were done very well. Willow's arc I found vastly disappointing. But I love S5 and 6, S6 is by far my favourite season, I thought it was simply outstanding and handled the darker stories exceptionally well.


You may be right about Buffy-Boards as I haven't been on there in some time :) But for Buffyforums, Whedonesque, Darkhorse and Slayalive the discussion just pales in comparison to the level of activity we had during S8's run.

I wasn't around for S8 but I did see the interest fall and die in S9 and with good reason. S10 is better than S9 but it does lack layering. As I say though, I can see the rough character paths working from the TV through to where we are in the comics, which is good enough for me to still keep reading them even if the writing and plotting certainly aren't as strong as I would hope for. And as someone who is interested in reading them still and talking about them I will openly admit that there isn't much to talk about.

The Dark Horse boards are closed now btw.

Silver1
13-08-15, 03:17 PM
I'll PM you.

Oh nice....:(


The Dark Horse boards are closed now btw.

Are they really? When did that happen?

*eta* Buffy boards is always really quite busy really, which is a refreshing change. But they very rarely talk about the comics, preferring to concentrate on the show instead.

Stoney
13-08-15, 05:16 PM
I rarely ever go on there and stopped going on BuffyBoards a good while back to keep my blood pressure on a more even keel :D. I went to see if there was any discussion on the Dark Horse board when I could see virtually nothing about the last issue of A&F, just to see if activity had migrated there instead, and it had a notice up saying they have been closed, thanks for contributing etc. But as I rarely go there it could have been any time in the last year as far as I know.

Silver1
13-08-15, 05:49 PM
Oh right. I used to post there quite a lot in the distant past, but eventually migrated to other boards so I can't say I'll really miss it.



I rarely ever go on there and stopped going on BuffyBoards a good while back to keep my blood pressure on a more even keel

Yeah, sadly it can get rather heated sometimes. :D

Cordelia
14-08-15, 03:06 AM
Oh I'm sure that's the case but my point was that in comparison to how they were back in S8 it is very quiet there now. Which is the same here.

Sure, I can see what your saying, I can only understand to an extent because I wasn't around but I've experienced the general idea before.

I'm surprised there is so little discussion of the BTVS and Angel novels. I've read three of the Angel novels and so far of them 'Haunted' by Jeff Mariotte is the most flawless in characterization and plot.
The other two, however, 'Impressions' and 'Fearless' by Doranna Durgin were a disappointment, the storylines had massive potential but felt imcomplete, underdeveloped and she has a poor understanding of the Angelverse characters which was a huge letdown for me because I knew her previously for her flawless contribiutions to the Ghost Whisperer novel series.
I'm anxious ot read more from Mariotte and other authors though.


For example, I think S3 is very consistent when it comes to the quality of each episode. There are very few, if any, episodes in S3 that I would classify as 'weak.' However, in saying that I also don't think the arc in S3 is as emotionally compelling as S2, S5 or even S6's arcs. I personally love the Buffy/Faith drama but it doesn't really ramp up until later in the season and I don't think it ever quite reaches the heights of Angel losing his soul in S2 or Buffy losing her mother and then sacrificing herself in S5.

I concur that while much of season 3 was flawless, 'Ted' is one of my favorite episodes for example, the Buffy/Faith thing, even really the Faith/Mayor Wilkins thing wasn't too compelling but then I actually didn't get into Faith until season 7...maybe even season 4 of AtS. "Orpheas' is by far one of the strongest episodes in that overall weak season but her more mature attitude in season 7 of BTVS really captured my attention.

The season 2 Angelus arc was by far the strongest, I've been an Angel fanatic since I started watching (which might or might not have something to do with the fact that I'd watched over half the first season of AtS before BTVS) and Angelus just blew my mind. He had me on the edge of my seat the entire duration. 'Passion', another favorite episode of mine, was just brilliant!

I also found The Master in season 1 very compelling, the fact that he was the midpoint between a primitive and modern vampire which was a foreshadow we had no idea we were getting was though unintentional, very smart and his creepy presence was chill inspiring though not as much as Angelus.

To be honest the logical flaw in Buffy's season 5 suicide kind of killed it for me. She thought she could save Dawn because their shared Summers blood would enable her to close the uberportal but it wasn't Summers blood that made Dawn the key. Ergo Buffy should not have been able to function as the key.
I'd have to say that over all season five was the weakest link for me with season 7 rubbing right up against it. Glory was weak for me, though I did find the whole evil goddess being imprisoned within a human body thing intruiging her motive to return to her home dimention was flat. Granted it was this explosive apolocolypic uberportal which would get here there, it felt like there should have been some kind of revenge story going on.


And I personally adore Buffy's arc in S6 and find it so ambitious and probably the most honest depiction of depression I have ever seen on TV.

In the beginning it was strong; Buffy's readjustment period to life was very well done to the point where I consider it the ONLY sensibly resurrection I've ever seen on television.
Throughout the season there are really brilliant episodes peppered here and there, 'Forever', that end scene with the 'The Monkey's Paw' concept of bringing back Joyce gave me chills, the desperation in Dawn and the regret in Buffy knowing it wasn't genuine was beautiful. Then there is 'Normal Again', it desrturbed me quite a bit, but save for a few ideas the insitituion didn't use which I thought would have strengthed it was very well done.

Example 1: I'm intrigued by how the doctor didn't bring up Giles returning to England which can easily be applied to Buffy's subconscious getting rid of the Slayer persona. Isn't it interesting how when she had to choose between the two realities to embrace Sunnydale, Giles soon after returns and one of the Trio (Warren) ups his game and gets badass?

Example 2: I believe Angel could have been used in a more complex form. I am wondering if Buffy had actually banished him or if rather he was forced away either by brainwashing such as the conversation Joyce has with Angel in 'Prom' (the way a real attempt to reach Buffy could have come across in the Sunnydale world) or by medications. His first return after he left was kept from her until Xander blurted it, then when she visits him in LA it's implied that he had to be human to be what she wanted and that happened for a while but then he chooses to reverse it and she is made to forget that experience. You might even speculate that medication could have triggered the whole Angelus saga. Angel had been the one she had clung to the most so I could see the institution believing that to separate her from Angel would bring her back to reality. This is what brings me back to Spike, in her desperate attempt to hold on to Angel she could have turned Spike into as much of an equivalent as she could, he even got a soul.

For me the Trio was where season 6 really fell short for me. Where is the sense in three human nerds trying to take down a slayer? I just found it pretty stupid, except I did like the storyline where they'd tried to set her up for murder, that we got to revisit that guilty side of Buffy that was done so well back in season 3's 'Ted'. Though I do like where Andrew's character ends up as a a result of it. Although I'm not familiar with much of it (just what was shown in season 5 of AtS) I quite like him as a watcher-in-training.

I'd also found Buffy to be kind of immature in areas such as using invisibility to mess with the social worker but I did appreciate that they'd tried to give her a sense of human responsiblity, which I think was the only purpose Dawn's character had at this point.

Anyway that's just me.


I liked After the Fall well enough but I didn't enjoy it as much as S8. I think it started off very strongly but I became less enthused with it as time went on as it felt a bit hollow to me. The writer was Brian Lynch and he was a bit of a mixed bag for me. I think he nailed the characters voices in a way few writers have been able to do and that really made it feel like you were watching a continuation of the series. However, I do think he glossed over some of Angel's flaws (and I say that as an Angel fan!) and that he fundamentally misunderstood the Angel/Spike relationship. I think I would have looked back on After the Fall more fondly if it had ended differently as, without spoiling it for you, I think the ending completely negates the entire 17 issues of the series and renders the story meaningless.

To put it simply; when I was reading After the Fall I enjoyed each issue but since finishing it I have never felt the need to go back and re-read it. Whereas, I used to re-read each issue of S8 over and over again and have re-read the season several times over the years. I think that probably speaks to what season resonated with me the most but I do understand why people loved After the Fall. It's certainly far superior to BtVS S9/S10 or Angel & Faith.

Thanks for this analysis. As an Angel fan myself I don't appreciate the notion that his flaws were overlooked, they are what made his character strong and while it does make me nervous that you feel the ending of the series invalidated the the whole thing, in some ways I felt that about the 'Never Fade Away' as well particularly that the entire season post-'You're Welcome' pretty much invalidated 'You're Welcome', because I felt he got lost all over again right after Cordelia left but I've read something about about the 12th issue which I can't disclose since this is a spoiler free thread that I am intriuged by.


But Spike's arc across S7 and the development between him/Buffy were done very well.

Actually, I agree with this statement. It was in season 7 that I was thoroughly convinced by Spuffy, particularly in 'Chosen', Spike's individual arc I partially liked but I am not able to elaborate because it involves referencing crucial information Cassiopeia might not know yet.

The potentials were kind of an overkill for me and the Willow arc just weak. I'm sorry but I never bought Willow/Kennedy, though it's possible you weren't suppose to because it might have been meant as a divice to showcase her emotional insecurity and that she still hadn't gotten over Tara. What I did like was how it highlighted that Tara was the love of Willow's life. I've come to realize that Joss seems to define the OTPs in the Buffyverse by killing one of them off though that's a matter of opinion because the couples that would apply aren't supported by everyone (I can't name most of the rest because again it would be a crucial giveaway to Cassiopeia, but Willow/Tara and Giles/Jenny are two she knows).


I rarely ever go on there and stopped going on BuffyBoards a good while back to keep my blood pressure on a more even keel

Unfortunately you do at times have to watch your step at Buffy-Boards because you can catch your foot in a bear trap. It was at one time difficult for me to be against Bangel and to ship Cangel over there.
I'll admit my Anti-Bangel opinions are harsh but they are rational and follow facts, they are seldom appreciated in various places even in those which are Cangel aimed (disrespectful is the word I recieve, but to me it's just honesty and rationality) but at Buffy-Boards is where I most got torn apart for it. So I eventually did refrain.

Anyway I just mean to say that I understand how Buffy-Boards can have an uncomfortable atmosphere, but it's one of the most active buffyverse communities out there currently alongside here and except when it comes to Bangel topics most people there are very insightful and eloquent.
I've found it comfortable there after a while and recently managed to bring out the Cangel supporter side of some of those folks mwhahaha. ;D

vampmogs
14-08-15, 05:16 AM
I'm surprised there is so little discussion of the BTVS and Angel novels. I've read three of the Angel novels and so far of them 'Haunted' by Jeff Mariotte is the most flawless in characterization and plot.
The other two, however, 'Impressions' and 'Fearless' by Doranna Durgin were a disappointment, the storylines had massive potential but felt imcomplete, underdeveloped and she has a poor understanding of the Angelverse characters which was a huge letdown for me because I knew her previously for her flawless contribiutions to the Ghost Whisperer novel series.
I'm anxious ot read more from Mariotte and other authors though.

We've had threads on them before but canonical stories are usually what gets most people's attention I'm afraid. There are a few great novels but the IMO the overwhelming majority of them are usually quite mediocre as well. The two novels I did really enjoy though were Spike & Dru: Pretty Maids All In A Row and The Lost Slayer series. If you haven't read them;

Spike & Dru: Pretty Maids All In A Row is set during World War II and basically is about Spike and Dru attempting to kill the entire Slayer line. They attack all of the Potential Slayers and also try to kill the current Slayer Sophie and her Watcher Yanna. What's fascinating is that they introduce the concept of Potential Slayers and an attack on their line long before S7 ever did and the book actually handles it far better. Christopher Golden manages to flesh out both Sophie and Yanna really well and some of the Potential Slayers are great too. Unfortunately, the novel was written pre-Fool For Love and the show later established that the second Slayer Spike faced was actually Nikki Wood so the novel directly contradicts canon. But if you can ignore that and just enjoy the story for what it is it's a fascinating read. The writing is far more mature than most of the other novels and is geared towards a more adult audience. To this day I wish it could have been turned into a miniseries or TV movie.

Lost Slayer: is a great mini series set in a future where Sunnydale is overrun by vampires much like the reality we saw in The Wish. Buffy is catapulted into her future 30-year old body and finds herself stuck in a future where vampires rule Sunnydale and she has been held captive for years. It's a very bleak story where some Scoobies have died and others have become hardened by the fight. And most surprising of all is that Giles has been sired into a vampire and is now running Sunnydale. It's another very mature series and is very well-written. Christopher Golden is free to kill off whatever characters he likes and he gets to play with the characters a lot.

I also liked the Tales of the Slayers books but those two were definitely my favourites. I haven't read Haunted by I've heard good things about it and Go Ask Malice is also supposed to be great.

And just so you know but 'Ted' was actually a season 2 episode and 'Forever' was a season 5 episode :)

Silver1
14-08-15, 09:31 AM
I know you weren't addressing me but...


Anyway I just mean to say that I understand how Buffy-Boards can have an uncomfortable atmosphere, but it's one of the most active buffyverse communities out there currently alongside here and except when it comes to Bangel topics most people there are very insightful and eloquent.
I've found it comfortable there after a while and recently managed to bring out the Cangel supporter side of some of those folks mwhahaha. ;D

Personally I think thats partly down to many of the old hard core Bangel shipper crowd having left the board, or just don't feel like posting anymore for what ever reason.



Lost Slayer: is a great mini series set in a future where Sunnydale is overrun by vampires much like the reality we saw in The Wish. Buffy is catapulted into her future 30-year old body and finds herself stuck in a future where vampires rule Sunnydale and she has been held captive for years. It's a very bleak story where some Scoobies have died and others have become hardened by the fight. And most surprising of all is that Giles has been sired into a vampire and is now running Sunnydale. It's another very mature series and is very well-written. Christopher Golden is free to kill off whatever characters he likes and he gets to play with the characters a lot.

One of my all time fav Buffy books. I loved how they were published in short succession, like old time penny dreadfuls. I remember being so excited when each edition hit the shops. The nearest thing for me to the show airing. :D

Stoney
14-08-15, 09:35 AM
I've just ordered Pretty Maids on your rec vampmogs and I will dig around for the Lost Slayer too. :D

Silver1
14-08-15, 10:13 AM
They have the first part of the Lost Slayer series over here..

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Prophecies-Buffy-Vampire-Slayer-Lost/dp/0743411854

Haven't checked If they have the subsequent parts.

Stoney
14-08-15, 06:01 PM
I found a new omnibus edition of the Lost Slayer, I've just had to order it from the US! Well I can read Pretty Maids whilst I wait a month for the Lost Slayer to turn up. :biggrin1: Really looking forward to reading both of these.

Re: After the Fall. I've only read it once a long while ago, around the same time I read S8 actually, and I enjoyed it well enough. Spike's characterisation was certainly somewhat limited and focused on being more 'laddish' than showing full breadth, but that was pretty true to his AtS persona. I don't really remember my reactions beyond that really. Personally I'd say if you want to go down the continuity route you should read all those that are canon (even though we know that Brian Lynch went off piste from Joss' outline in some ways because he extended the number of issues, but it is accepted as canon regardless). I wouldn't personally bother, and haven't, with the subsequent IDW non-canon issues after the ones Joss was involved with. I know of some of the plots of later ones and, well, to be honest I'm glad Joss' name isn't anywhere near some of it!

Cordelia
14-08-15, 09:16 PM
There are a few great novels but the IMO the overwhelming majority of them are usually quite mediocre as well.

Believe me, I know this to be true. Doranna Durgin's novels greatly disappointed me with poor characterization, a redundent writing style and lack of development (though her plotlines had massive potential, her ideas were very intriuging), even more so because after reading her beautifully flawless contributions to the 'Ghost Whisperer' novels I was expecting a lot better from her going into her Angel work.

I use Amazon to purchase the installments but before making a final decision on any single one I tend to scan the fan reviews because I find them very informative and there are some installments which majorilly recieved negative feedback and some that are almost a dead even mix. After reading the ones I buy I then tend to go back and add my own reviews.
BTW my intention was to have read FOUR installments of the Angel series by this point rather than three but 'Dark Mirror' which I'd ordered last year along with 'Fearless' never arrived and I was refunded for it. Hopefully it never decides to turn up now as I am no longer at the address I'd ordered it from.



Spike & Dru: Pretty Maids All In A Row is set during World War II and basically is about Spike and Dru attempting to kill the entire Slayer line. They attack all of the Potential Slayers and also try to kill the current Slayer Sophie and her Watcher Yanna. What's fascinating is that they introduce the concept of Potential Slayers and an attack on their line long before S7 ever did and the book actually handles it far better. Christopher Golden manages to flesh out both Sophie and Yanna really well and some of the Potential Slayers are great too. Unfortunately, the novel was written pre-Fool For Love and the show later established that the second Slayer Spike faced was actually Nikki Wood so the novel directly contradicts canon. But if you can ignore that and just enjoy the story for what it is it's a fascinating read. The writing is far more mature than most of the other novels and is geared towards a more adult audience. To this day I wish it could have been turned into a miniseries or TV movie.

Lost Slayer: is a great mini series set in a future where Sunnydale is overrun by vampires much like the reality we saw in The Wish. Buffy is catapulted into her future 30-year old body and finds herself stuck in a future where vampires rule Sunnydale and she has been held captive for years. It's a very bleak story where some Scoobies have died and others have become hardened by the fight. And most surprising of all is that Giles has been sired into a vampire and is now running Sunnydale. It's another very mature series and is very well-written. Christopher Golden is free to kill off whatever characters he likes and he gets to play with the characters a lot.

These sound very intriguing, I haven't even touched the Buffy novels yet though I've browsed some on Amazon and came across a few that have appealed to me.

As for the inconsistency in 'Pretty Maids', it's being written prior to Nikki Wood being introduced on the show completely excuses it, that's out of the author's control. Even if it hadn't been I wouldn't condone it but could still overlook it easily enough as long as the story was really well-done which you promise it is.

There is still quite a bit about the slayer line that I wish the show had answered. How is the gene inherited since it's not from family (clearly Joyce was not a slayer) and does it make any difference if a girl is born to a slayer such as if Principle Wood had been born a girl, would she be guarenteed a slayer, be more likely than a potential or still be just as much a potential as any?

Unfortunately I am not finacially able to make purchases over the internet right now. I need to hold out for Amazon gift cards in November (when my birthday falls) and then on Christmas. I shall keep these in mind, however.



I haven't read Haunted by I've heard good things about it

Haunted is a really thought provoking Cordelia centered storyline. It's set at the end of season 2, somewhere between the events of 'Dead End' and 'Belonging'.
Cordelia landed herself a spot on a reality TV show hoping to launch her acting career in which 9 contestants are challanged to live for several days in a "Haunted House" with a $100,000 prize at stake for the last one standing. This prompts A.I to consider their future without her which is particularly hard on Angel, but there is more than entertaining competition going on in this house as it becomes clearer to Cordy the longer she's there that the hauntings that are happening are NOT staged.

There is also a really well developed Wolfram & Hart plot that leaves the reader clueless until the climax, one of my favorite things is how difficult it was for A.I to prove their involvement even when witnesses mentioned lawyers and limos.
Once I'd reached the climactic chapters I went to bed one night half an hour later than usual, 2:30am instead of 2am or sometimes even 1:25-1:30am because I couldn't put the damn thing down!

As I said Mariotte's characterization and portrayal of the Angelverse is flawless.
It's a particularly recommended read to those who like Cordelia and hers and Angel's relationship but still a great read for all AtS fans.
One of the best things he did was give Doyle a cameo appearence in a dream sequence, it was a really smart play of the creative license card to give us a form of the one thing the show never could have (because Glenn Quinn was fired due to a seriously drug addiction problem and then passed away two or three years later).


And just so you know but 'Ted' was actually a season 2 episode and 'Forever' was a season 5 episode

Aw shoot, I believe I mentioned that my memory isn't greatly in tact...or if I didn't now I have hehe.

Cassiopeia
15-08-15, 04:57 AM
popping in again!

saw lots of posts, haven't read them since i'm a bit concerned about spoilers. i have finished watching 'buffy'. i feel the show could have kept going on, even though sunnydale was swallowed (is that the right word for it?) by the hellmouth. season 7 was good, not, imo, the best season of the series. it felt like maybe they weren't exactly sure how to give the series a proper send off. the core cast (buffy, willow, anya, xander, spike, giles) felt right (and i think i can include dawn in that list), but having all the potential slayers there, and bringing back faith (i hate her/love her) felt like they were trying to cram more in than they needed. if anything, just have faith there. i felt no attachment to any of the potential slayers, and felt a bit put off when all the slayers all over the world were given slayer powers. to me it was weird having two slayers faith (when buffy first died), having all sorts of girls around, not so much. i would have preferred the story stick closer to 'home' (ie: buffy).

and as much as i love (adore, cherish, LOVE!) spike, it felt pointless to have angel show up with the amulet, barely have a conversation with buffy and then leave. even if destiny was giving spike the amulet to save the world/stop the apocalypse. i think it would have been better without having angel show up (as much as my angel/buffy heart loved seeing the kiss and them in the same scenes again). AND!!! it hurt me to see that spike saw buffy kiss angel! poor guy! (love that spike/buffy is adding tension btwn angel in spike in s5 of 'angel' though).

and did they have to kill off anya, and not give a proper goodbye btwn her and xander? really? :cutecry: her death felt like a 'gee, we should kill someone who has been around for a long time, but we don't want to kill off the core scoobies characters'. the finale... though good, left me feeling a bit... umm... unsatisfied. (not sure that's the right word). and it was great seeing nathan fillion (cap'n tight pants!) in a few of the last episodes (though "mal" kept running through my head).

i just finished "soul purpose" of "angel". them being the head of wolfram & hart is... different. and the whole shanshu thing... my guess is that since the series is called 'angel' that angel will be the one the prophesy speaks of, but spike has a good counter argument to that: he chose to have his soul, and he fought for it, and he earned his soul - whereas angel was cursed with a soul. i kind of want them both to end up as human by the end of this lol i love them both equally.

and geez! lindsey is back and plotting with eve?! what's that about? i have a feeling more twists and turns are forthcoming

and if i decide to get into the BTVS s8-s10 comics, are they available in volumes and not single issues? i have yet to try to hunt those down...

Cordelia
15-08-15, 07:52 AM
Cassiopeia, sorry you're thread exploded a bit here, but I assure you there are no spoilers in anyone's posts. I've not only been successfully refraining myself but warning the newcomers in the thread to as well and though said warnings haven't been acknowledged I've seen nothing posted since your last visit that gives anything crucial away.


saw lots of posts, haven't read them since I'm a bit concerned about spoilers. i have finished watching 'buffy'. i feel the show could have kept going on, even though sunnydale was swallowed (is that the right word for it?) by the hellmouth. season 7 was good, not, imo, the best season of the series. it felt like maybe they weren't exactly sure how to give the series a proper send off. the core cast (buffy, willow, anya, xander, spike, giles) felt right (and i think i can include dawn in that list), but having all the potential slayers there, and bringing back faith (i hate her/love her) felt like they were trying to cram more in than they needed. if anything, just have faith there. i felt no attachment to any of the potential slayers, and felt a bit put off when all the slayers all over the world were given slayer powers. to me it was weird having two slayers faith (when buffy first died), having all sorts of girls around, not so much. i would have preferred the story stick closer to 'home' (ie: buffy).


Welcome to the club. Season 7 was weak for a lot of fans including myself. I've already given my feedback in an earlier post (just scroll up a little to find it, I fear beinf thought of as annoying if I repeat myself) but one thing I haven't mentioned yet is that the whole activiating all the world's slayers thing didn't sit right with me either. It almost felt cheesy, like a Disney type of thing.

For me season 7 was a lot of intense build up to pretty much nothing. While I appreciate what it did for Spike's character individually, his wiping out all the ubervamps with the amulet was anti-climatic for me. I just felt like an army of ubervamps didn't live up to what we were made to anticipate. The First fleeing with it's tail between it's legs after Buffy killed Caleb didn't sit right with me. I didn't expect it to be ultimately defeated but it needed a more subtancial send off.
It then bugged the hell out of me that Giles' mention of the Hellmouth in Cleveland was completely ignored. I don't understand how they ended up in Europe with that second Hellmouth still open, but then I haven't read the comics.

There were storylines with potential such as that between Principle Wood and Spike and The First's influence on Spike but they fell short for me. Maybe I just missed it but I didn't see any substancial purpose for The First using Spike.
One of the highlights of the season was in 'Chosen' when Buffy ultimately declared Spike the one she loved. That was the moment I truely bought Spuffy, though there were moments throughout the season that had me considering.
BTW did anyone find Angel's tone weird for that whole appearence? Granted I'd just finished about two months of bindge watching David's current series 'Bones' but it just really threw me off, it felt to me coldish, stone-like, kind of in Angelus territory. I could see him being in a pretty deep emotional wreckage at that point though having just lost both of the most important people in his life (Connor and Cordy).


and the whole shanshu thing... my guess is that since the series is called 'angel' that angel will be the one the prophesy speaks of, but spike has a good counter argument to that: he chose to have his soul, and he fought for it, and he earned his soul - whereas angel was cursed with a soul. i kind of want them both to end up as human by the end of this lol i love them both equally.


What you are missing is that Spike doesn't have the most redeeming motives as Angel does. He fought to regain his soul to win over Buffy and once he is transferred to AtS it's more a competition to him than anything. He just wants the Shanshu to be able to justify that he's better than Angel, he even admits that without any reserve while beating Angel to a bloody pulp for the phony destiny cup. Don't get me wrong he has earned his heroic credit in some ways but they're largely glossed over in AtS, as is the character growth Angel had achieved over the course of the series. There were moments where I really didn't appreciate the horribly juvinille behavior Spike brought out in Angel.
Overall I'm afraid I found Spike's role rather useless after he regains his corporeal form, the areas of humor were enjoyable but unnecessary.

As for the Shanshu, there are some who believe that it could have been meant for both Angel and Spike, that it's specific wording referencing a single vampire with a soul could have been metaphorically referencing them as a single force. With this I disagree, I remained firmly convinced that it was meant for Angel. It's actually in the comics that it's ultimately answered, from what I'm told anyway. That's all I can say on that subject right now.

It's kinda driving me crazy right now that you skipped over describing your reaction to season 4 post-'Awakening', come on, I'm dying to know!
Also you've got to give feedback after you've watched 'You're Welcome'! Please?

Stoney
15-08-15, 10:08 AM
What you are missing is that Spike doesn't have the most redeeming motives as Angel does. He fought to regain his soul to win over Buffy and once he is transferred to AtS it's more a competition to him than anything.

Spike went to get his soul to be what Buffy deserves AND to be a better man in reaction to the AR (he states this to Buffy in the church scene in Beneath You). Angel and Spike bring out the worst in each other in their competitiveness but how Spike appears around Angel is largely defensiveness as he fears always being overshone or mocked (see the Destiny background of what happened when he told Angel about his hopes for him/Dru). So how Spike appears and presents in AtS 5 is a great deal to do with how he feels around Angel and it is too restricted and warped to just reduce his character to that. Angel did also, I'd agree, present as pretty juvenile in unflattering ways too in reaction to Spike's presence.

Cordelia
15-08-15, 07:05 PM
but spike has a good counter argument to that: he chose to have his soul, and he fought for it, and he earned his soul - whereas angel was cursed with a soul.

I disagree with this making a difference, it's not that they obtained their souls it's what they chose to do with them. It is our choices which dictate who we are. Recall Angel wasn't the champion for a century after he was cursed with his soul and while the opportunity had to be presented to him first, it wasn't until he chose to be the champion when he got to LA, that he actually was. He wanted that redemption so much that he felt he couldn't accept the devine gifts that were handed to him without having earned them such as the gem of amorra ('In the Dark') and humanity(IWRY).


but how Spike appears around Angel is largely defensiveness as he fears always being overshone or mocked

That's basically what I said, but you gave it a more sympathetic tone, which I'll take.
In quite a few ways Spike grew on me in AtS, and although was pretty mopey at times did come across to me as heroic.
From Spike's finale in 'BTVS' throughout his course on 'AtS' I did come to feel like he was a champion. Buffy chose him as one by giving him the amulet and that was enough for me...well, alright, not at first but it's come to be.
I still believe Angel was the universally recognized champion, he was after all, the PTB chosen, but Spike did earn the title even though it can't be argued that he was in part driven by wanting to one-up Angel.



Angel did also, I'd agree, present as pretty juvenile in unflattering ways too in reaction to Spike's presence.

*sigh* I wish Cordelia had been there, not only would I have liked to see her interact more with Spike but she would not have allowed Angel to act so juvinille around him. She knew how to give him a metaphorical spanking better than anyone.
She could have had a few more episodes in season 5 if Joss hadn't been such as ass, in fact, it acutally kinda made no sense in-story that Angel didn't have a fever dream about her in 'Soul Purpose' and that he DID have one of Spuffy. A Cordelia fever dream was needed.

Cassiopeia
17-08-15, 02:28 AM
Cordelia

no worries about the thread exploding, i don't mind :) i'll go back through since there are no spoilers and read all the posts (thanks for letting me know!).

spike is among one of my absolute favorite characters of all time. i love what s7 did for his character, i even enjoyed that spike was the key to wiping out all the ubervamps (though it felt weird that angel had the amulet, that itself, if angel were still a BTVS regular, meant that angel was the one supposed to do that, but perhaps because of this shanshu thing it wasn't meant for him, i'm still a bit confused by the shanshu prophesy). i love that spike took that responsibility and did it.

yes! the hellmouth in cleveland! he said that and i was all "ooh, that could have been season 8! (why did the show have to end?!?! *cries*)". i know in 'angel' we're told buffy is in europe now, i would have loved to have seen that play out. and it doesn't sit right with me that andrew told us that willow and kennedy are still together. i liked kennedy, but she didn't seem "right" for willow (but i got so attached to willow/tara that i'm not sure anything could top that).

i'm not 100% convinced that buffy telling spike "i love you" was 100% heartfelt, not in the romantic love kind of way anyway. i think she told spike that because she knew (and he knew) that he was not coming back from that, it was the end of his life, and she didn't want him to die not being told that she loved him. it didn't seem sincere romantically. i believe that buffy cared about him, and loved him to a certain extent, but i don't believe that it was romantic love. i think 210% for sure that spike truly, sincerely loved buffy though. the love was just stronger from him than from her. i still love the pairing and what it did for the two characters.

angel in the series finale episodes was "off". it didn't feel right, it felt like joss was just going for nostalgia and a guest appearance from one of the original characters from the series. i honestly think that angel, since he was included in the finale, deserved more of a role.

btw, is 'bones' any good? i watched an episode once (the one where adam baldwin guest starred) and i didn't much care for the show. i'm really not a fan of watching anything that has aired on the FOX network (not since they cancelled 'firefly'), but after i'm done with 'angel' the series... i'm not sure i'm ready to stop watching david boreanaz lol

oh, and before i forget! i'm rewatching both series with my sister, and i pinpointed the episode where angel/cordy first caught my attention, it was the s1 finale 'to shanshu in LA", when cordy is in the hospital and angel rushes to her side, all of that screams "HERE COMES A 'SHIP!" i think that's when it first entered my mind, but on my first watch i was more attuned to what was wrong with cordy, and that wes was in an explosion. second time around, i'm 100% positive the angel/cordy 'ship set sail in the s1 finale.

ok back to shanshu and angel vs spike... you are right that spike doesn't have the most redeeming motives as angel does, he did fight for his soul to win buffy, and so far what i've seen in 'angel' s5 is that spike is after winning against angel, rather than wanting to actually 'help the helpless' from his own heart/soul.

it is weird when spike and angel act immaturely, it's funny, it doesn't fit well with how much each has grown up to this point, but at the same time they are long-time foes who have a history of toying with one another and doing things to irk the other, so it does fit with their past. for example, sometimes when ppl reunite with friends from their youth, they can regress back to their past behaviours. i think this is what is happening with angel and spike.

considering how angel found the scroll that held the text about the shanshu prophesy, i can believe that it is intended/destined for angel. i don't think much can convince me otherwise (no matter how much i love spike).

remind me, which ep was 'awakening'? i'm flying through these episodes so quickly i honestly do not remember that one (by title).

and the next ep i'm watching (tonight) is "you're welcome" so i will (hopefully) pop in tomorrow to let you know what i think of it (and i'll research, or maybe rewatch "awakening" so i can comment on that one too).

Stoney

i agree, the way spike is around angel has to do with his insecurities having to do with his relationship/history with angel. when we saw the flashback to angel screwing dru, and spike walks in on it, argh! that hurt! poor spike! he was all 'dru and i, one and only' and then angel was an ass to him, just mean, but that was angel's way of showing his dominance over spike/dru, and i think the only vampire that ever seriously challenged angel's dominance over the group he was with back then was darla.

Stoney
17-08-15, 03:22 AM
Hey, Cassiopeia. :D

In Chosen I think that Buffy was being honest when she told Spike she loved him, I definitely think it was genuine and she isn't someone that says it easily or frivolously. I do think Spike felt that it was the moment/sacrifice that prompted it and I don't disagree with him but also don't think that negates it. But I have to say that I agree with you that Buffy wasn't meaning it in a deeply romantic sense although she obviously has romantic feelings for him. I don't think she/they had gotten to the point where they were stepping fully down that road yet though. S7 to me was about them getting past the mutual abuse of S6 and being who the other person needed. The season structured them both emotionally supporting the other at specific points and I think that was on quite deep emotional levels but it hadn't fully progressed into being a couple, just wanting to be with each other and giving that strength and support. So, I believe there was some romantic feelings tied in to it all and that she does love him but it was still very complicated!!

As an aside, just for another pov, I have half heartedly watched a couple of episodes of Bones and found it totally lacking. The main female character really bugs me and I didn't really like her dynamic with DB either, although his character was passable.

I have to heartily disagree that Spike isn't wanting to help out of his own motivation. The season for him is largely about him trying to find the path he can take as a hero, being uncertain about how he can go about it. He is defensive and seemingly dismissive of Angel. Some of that is because he is very dubious about the W&H set up, with good reason and that is without knowing why Angel got himself into that agreement, some is about bravado and covering that he is looking for tips/advice from Angel who has been dealing with this situation far longer, and some is to avoid setting himself up to be mocked and pulled down. But he is trying to get on and do it.

The dumbing down I dislike was a bit rife in Damage, but the conversation he has with Angel around Andrew's appearance is very telling from and about them both. Angel is determinedly pulling him down and telling him he is no different souled which is just ridiculous and pretty offensive to him. His reaction is to tell Angel to get over it and get on with it which is also dismissive. They have very different stances, not only because they are different personalities and reacting to each other but because they are where they are from very different paths. Spike was already, when unsouled, involved in fighting with the good guys and had started down a path that led to choosing to get his soul. His focus is on making choices to rectify his life. Angel was a demon and enjoying it when he got his soul and there must be more internal discord from that and his guilt is heightened in the sense that he focuses on it and a search for redemption. Both are looking to change their lives for the good but Spike doesn't feel the same focus on his past in the way Angel does. That doesn't mean he doesn't feel remorse, his conversations with Buffy in S7 clearly showed that, but he isn't going to get into that with Angel and he chooses to look forward.

Their different outlooks I think would result in any interest Spike might have in being human again would be about being a 'real boy' and no longer being a monster. It is pretty separate to him continuing to want to do good/help I think. Angel who was human again in I Will Remember You, is focused on wanting to redeem himself, to earn it. In many ways that is about Angel choosing his souled path for himself and was what I took away from him choosing to become a vampire again, he wasn't wanting to be changed again by chance circumstances happening to him. But that choice to walk that path is something that Spike has already been down in many ways. In this sense he is ahead of Angel and that is where a lot of Angel's insecurities around Spike come from. They probably both feel ahead of and also behind the other.

I agree that they do play Spike and Angel as regressing around each other generally. They want them to be standing strong side by side in AtS or pulling the other down and it gets tiresome because whilst both are believable it isn't a very believable continuous dynamic. The network insisting on Spike's involvement in S5 has kept him around too long imo (as much as he is my absolute fave), it is becoming forced in the season and starting to not make sense for the character.

One of my biggest narks about Spike's portrayal in AtS 5 is the reduced view given of him. Such as Angel's determined disparagement of Spike/Buffy is added to by Spike's defences going up and him making some pretty crass statements because he is hardly going to pour his heart out to Angel. But if you only ever had watched AtS it would leave a warped pov of Spike (did you notice that they cut out the I love you and the flaming hands imagery between Buffy and Spike when they gave the flashback to Chosen early on?). They really emphasise his impetuous side and dumb him down with his competitive behaviour. They also disrupt some serious canonical character points for gags, like he would ever refer to his mum trying it on with him out loud to anyone like they wrote, it was ridiculous. Another thing that annoys me more on this front is yet to happen, so I'll save that rant for you to look forward to (everyone else on the board is probably rolling their eyes sick to death of hearing it anyway, ha! :p).

To end on a positive note, Angel and Spike do have some moments when you are reminded that they can, if they let themselves, offer each other understanding that no one else is capable of and one of my season faves are the lines between Angel and Spike at the end of Damage -
ANGEL: She's an innocent victim.
SPIKE: So were we... once upon a time.
ANGEL: Once upon a time.

Cordelia
25-08-15, 04:19 AM
Hey again Cassiopeia. :)


and it doesn't sit right with me that andrew told us that willow and kennedy are still together. i liked kennedy, but she didn't seem "right" for willow (but i got so attached to willow/tara that i'm not sure anything could top that).

I'm with you, I never got into Willow/Kennedy but it seemed to me like Kennedy was more of a device for Willow's plot to highlight that raw pain still inside her over Tara. I believe Tara was the love of her life.
According to the Buffy and Angel wikia 'Chosen' page, there was an alternate ending in which the PTB granted Buffy a wish and she'd used it to bring back Tara for Willow.
I for one am glad they didn't do this purely from a biased standpoint XD; As an Angel fanatic I hate the thought that he and Cordelia for that matter were going to be stiffed.
Here is the page: http://buffy.wikia.com/wiki/Chosen

On the subject of Andrew, I don't agree with him being the one to deliver the news that Buffy no longer trusted Angel in 'Damage'. I feel Willow would have been the more appropriate character for that task given that she has been their link to each other.


remind me, which ep was 'awakening'? i'm flying through these episodes so quickly i honestly do not remember that one (by title).


'Awakening' was the episode in which the events ended up being a fantasy in Angel's head; a dupe to fans who ship Cangel that they'd gotten together as a couple. Very infuriating!


In Chosen I think that Buffy was being honest when she told Spike she loved him, I definitely think it was genuine and she isn't someone that says it easily or frivolously. I do think Spike felt that it was the moment/sacrifice that prompted it and I don't disagree with him but also don't think that negates it. But I have to say that I agree with you that Buffy wasn't meaning it in a deeply romantic sense although she obviously has romantic feelings for him. I don't think she/they had gotten to the point where they were stepping fully down that road yet though. S7 to me was about them getting past the mutual abuse of S6 and being who the other person needed. The season structured them both emotionally supporting the other at specific points and I think that was on quite deep emotional levels but it hadn't fully progressed into being a couple, just wanting to be with each other and giving that strength and support. So, I believe there was some romantic feelings tied in to it all and that she does love him but it was still very complicated!!


I agree with this assessment. I believed Buffy when she declared her love for Spike in 'Chosen'; her devotion to him was clear when she sent Angel away in favor of him but you are absolutely right that their relationship hadn't reached that deeply romatic stage yet. For me 'chosen' was that turning point though it was unfortunatly cut off.


As an aside, just for another pov, I have half heartedly watched a couple of episodes of Bones and found it totally lacking. The main female character really bugs me and I didn't really like her dynamic with DB either, although his character was passable.

Sorry you felt that way but it takes more than a few episodes to fully understand the characters. The lead female grows astoundingly over the seasons from that robotic kind of personality as a result of her relationship with DB's character who I found delightful, badass but adorable and funny.

My apologies. I must more thoroughly read and better compose my responses to your posts at a later time. I'm not on my regular laptop currently and the one I am on is a pain in the ass. It was hell and a half getting that Wikia link, this laptop did NOT like that site. :P

Cassiopeia
28-08-15, 11:13 PM
hey guys! sorry for taking so long to get back to you (been dealing with A LOT at work lately, it'd take writing a novel or putting together an episode of 'dateline' to explain, so i won't).

i have finished 'angel' now. i have to say that i think the 'angel' series finale was much stronger than 'buffy', but i do feel like this series ended too soon. i don't know anything about what was going on with the show at the time, but at the end of s5 were they uncertain if the show was going to come back for a sixth season, or did they know s5 was the end of it? i feel the series could have gone on for at least another season (especially with illyria, i love fred and all, but illyria was a whole new character that i would have loved to have seen fleshed out even more - especially with her learning human behaviour/emotions, and wanting to learn from wesley - before they killed him *cries*)

i was a little bummed that the episode (title?) where angel and spike to to italy to save buffy, didn't actually feature SMG, but (and i might be one of the few) i loved the banter and immature interaction that went on between spike and angel. when they're at the disco and spike gets confused and accidentally punches angel, and then angel attacks him, i was hurting so much from laughing at them (i love good physical humor). also funny to see how andrew turned out (seriously?! a ladies man for the italian women? lol love it!)

i do have to say though that i'm disappointed that shanshu wasn't completely answered by the end of 'angel'. though in my heart i believe it is meant for angel, but i can also go with it was meant for both angel and spike. i lean towards angel though because after 'buffy' sent him to hell, he came back. some higher power sent him back, and i believe that was for shanshu. also, in 'amends' angel was going to let himself bake/die in the morning sunrise, but again a higher power brought on an unexpected snowfall/cloud cover that prevented him from dying. to me, this higher power that did these things is part of his destiny of shanshu.

i'm curious to know how the comics answered this.

also, can the 'buffy' seasons 8, 9, 10 issues be bought in individual volumes per season? i'm so confused with comic books that i don't even know where to begin to look. and... same thing with the 'angel' comics. any links you can provide (amazon? TFAW?) would be helpful. thanks (in advance)!

i'm having great fun rewatching both series with my sister, we only just finished 'fool for love' yesterday. my sis' is quite the spike fan. she's been complaining that there should have been a spin-off series called 'spike' (and i don't disagree, he's an amazingly intricate, complex character that i feel i need to see more of).

i'm glad that the alternate ending for 'chosen' didn't happen, that wouldn't have felt right either. i'm just curious, Cordelia, what kind of wish would you have wanted buffy to make for angel (and/or cordy)? for me, and i don't remember if cordy was dead at that point or not/in the coma, i would have loved for buffy to have made a wish for cordy to live so she and angel could be together/have a chance for a time, that kind of wish would have shown (though we already know) that buffy has moved on from angel, and wanted to help him be happy (though not the happy that the gypsies cursed him with), or at least wish for angel to be cursed with a soul, but get rid of that happiness part, let the guy get some with the woman he loves without consequence! lol

ok, 'awakening'... that episode was so good! but so frustrating when we found out that it was all in his head. BUT that being said, everything that played out in his head angel's mind "knew" was real and that's why he went back to angelus. so it is safe to say that his love for cordelia was just as strong as/equal to the love he had for buffy when she and angel had sex in 'surprise/innocence'. i just love that because when he slept with darla, the sex itself was not enough to change him, it was true feelings of love for buffy and cordy, and the physical expression of that love that changed him.

and in my mind, angel and cordy were an actual couple, but one of those couples that knows that even though they love each other, that they cannot be together in the traditional sense of the word 'couple' (and though tragic, it, to me, doesn't make angel/cordy any less of a romance/relationship than what he had with buffy). in fact, i think his love/relationship with cordy would have made for a stronger angel/cordy than angel/buffy, no, i take that back. the way in which angel and cordy fell in love DOES make them a stronger relationship than what angel/buffy was.

but i still love angel/buffy, no doubts about that :)

i'm also considering watching 'bones' (if only to gawk at DB) despite any ridicule i would get from my sister for watching a FOX network programme after they cancelled 'firefly' lol

as for spike, on my 2nd viewing of the series i'm having a different view of his love for buffy in its early stages (sniffing her sweater, stealing her panties), though that's still rather creepy to me, i am viewing it in a way like spike isn't a normal person, he's a vampire. a vampire that once swore he was going to kill buffy, he's the 'big bad', and he has this reputation to uphold. so it's not like he can go about expressing his love for her like angel did, or how riley does. he's trying to keep it under wraps and only deal with it alone. he doesn't want to be seen by others as weaker for having fallen in love with buffy, so he has to be the way he is about it. if that makes any sense at all. it nearly chokes me up/tears when he's going to go shoot her with a rifle, and he sees her outside in tears after her mom tells her she's going to the hospital for further exams to see what is going on with her health. that's just one more step in the right direction for him, it was a way he could express his feelings for her without actually saying them out loud. for sure buffy saw the rifle, and figured out what he might have come by to do, but he did not. instead he sat with her, touched her back to offer comfort, and they sat there in silence: end episode. i LOVE that moment. love it. i can't wait to see this 'ship play out again with eyes that have seen it before. i love the spike/buffy 'ship so much. i'm just a non-committed 'shipper for the top buffy 'ships of the series (and my views on riley/buffy are better the second time around as well - i actually think, at the end of the day, the best relationship choice for buffy would have been riley, but it wasn't meant to be).

i'm running out of thoughts (i have so many!), but in closing i want to say that i wish 'angel' the series had at least another season so perhaps we could have seen angel and spike grow up in each others presence. the first season of them really being together, working together was ok for that immature regression, but i would have absolutely loved it to see angel and spike grow to respect each other more, and behave like mature adults most of the time, than the way that they were with each other in s5. i have no qualms in admitting that angel and spike are my top two favorite characters of both series. they're the best (among other great characters, of course).

Cordelia
31-08-15, 08:22 AM
Back on my Macbook and am ready to rock again!


i have finished 'angel' now. i have to say that i think the 'angel' series finale was much stronger than 'buffy', but i do feel like this series ended too soon. i don't know anything about what was going on with the show at the time, but at the end of s5 were they uncertain if the show was going to come back for a sixth season, or did they know s5 was the end of it?

They didn't find out until well into the season, Wesley's death was a last minute change as a result of their finding out, he was meant to survive for the sixth season.
Incidentally, I believe the 'After the Fall' comic series is actually most of the scripts intended for the sixth season. What I've found out about it suggests to me that it could be worth checking out whenever I'm able. What primarily draws me in is that Cordelia appears as, this time a legitmate, higher being to Angel in the 12th issue.


i'm glad that the alternate ending for 'chosen' didn't happen, that wouldn't have felt right either. i'm just curious, Cordelia, what kind of wish would you have wanted buffy to make for angel (and/or cordy)? for me, and i don't remember if cordy was dead at that point or not/in the coma, i would have loved for buffy to have made a wish for cordy to live so she and angel could be together/have a chance for a time, that kind of wish would have shown (though we already know) that buffy has moved on from angel, and wanted to help him be happy (though not the happy that the gypsies cursed him with), or at least wish for angel to be cursed with a soul, but get rid of that happiness part, let the guy get some with the woman he loves without consequence! lol

I'm interested in you having taken my comment on this subject in this form; I'd actually idealize Angel recieving his own wish which he'd use to bring Cordelia back to him but I have been quite intriugued by the idea of Buffy having been introduced to Angel and Cordy as a romantic couple or the potential to be one. Would she have felt the approval necessary to use a wish on them?
If you want a glimpse at the concept someone made an excellent video on youtube of Buffy manipped in stumbling onto the kiss scene at the end of 'You're Welcome':

WARNING to other readers: If you are a Bangel shipper this might upset you so think carefully about watching.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hk1SGjFlTCU&list=PLfntUdWRvOz8GKxepG9KOtWbxNXyL4eCn&index=38
Personally I believe this vidder nailed her reaction, at least her initial reaction.

Tidbit: 'You're Welcome' was originally intended to feature Buffy as the guest role but SMG declined to appear for personal reasons so the episode was rewritten for Cordelia instead which writer/director David Fury called "A God send" because "Charisma was fantastic". Charisma had initially had her reservations about doing the episode because she'd been upset by the idea of being brought back just to be killed off which apparently Whedon had actually promised her he would NOT do but when she read the script she couldn't help being moved by it. "A love letter to Cordelia" she'd called it.

Since Angel had to deal with Spuffy I think it was a gyp that Buffy didn't have to deal with Cangel.
Tidbit 2: In the original script of 'Chosen' that graveyard scene was extended to include Angel telling Buffy that he loved Cordy and about Connor but it was cut because it was felt that it confused Angel's storyline with Buffy's. This makes no sense to me but I still consider it to have happened just off screen. After Buffy had rubbed she and Spike in his face Angel deserved that, but he'd always been treated with less consideration than Buffy romantically which annoys me. This is why I am glad they didn't go with the wish ending.


i do have to say though that i'm disappointed that shanshu wasn't completely answered by the end of 'angel'.
It's answered in the comics, not sure if it's in 'After the Fall' or the BTVS seasons but I'll put it in a spoiler tag and it'll be completely up to you whteher or not you want to know.
(though the circumstances are unknown to me) I was told Angel receives the Shanshu but he gives it to Spike as his blessing to Spuffy...who apparently get back together in season 10 of BTVS so perhaps it happens somewhere in there.


ok, 'awakening'... that episode was so good! but so frustrating when we found out that it was all in his head. BUT that being said, everything that played out in his head angel's mind "knew" was real and that's why he went back to angelus.

Exactly this is how I comfort myself about the whole thing being a fantasy, by applying the logic that this was Angel's fantasy, this was what he desired. He may not have actually been there but his heart, his feelings were.


so it is safe to say that his love for cordelia was just as strong as/equal to the love he had for buffy when she and angel had sex in 'surprise/innocence'.

I respectfully disagree with this but I don't do ship wars so I'm not getting into it. My arguement is too long and it's too late at night...early in the morning (just after midnight) here anyway so I wouldn't have it in my right now.


and in my mind, angel and cordy were an actual couple, but one of those couples that knows that even though they love each other, that they cannot be together in the traditional sense of the word 'couple' (and though tragic, it, to me, doesn't make angel/cordy any less of a romance/relationship than what he had with buffy). in fact, i think his love/relationship with cordy would have made for a stronger angel/cordy than angel/buffy, no, i take that back. the way in which angel and cordy fell in love DOES make them a stronger relationship than what angel/buffy was.

Now here I am with you. I believe that what he felt for Cordy was stronger than what he felt for Buffy because it was natural and developed over time as a close friendship and Cordelia was what Angel truely needed; his anchor, his sunshine, his north star. She brought out the humanity in him, made him smile and laugh like there was nothing wrong with the world which no one else ever did (notice in season 5 how that dork she'd brought out of him had lay in a coma with her and then died with her). There are even traces of the affect she and she alone had on him in the BTVS episodes 'Halloween' and 'Some Assembly Required'; both episodes in which he'd smiled, laughed and let loose when in the presence of Cordelia and he was lit up to see her again in 'City of...'. It almost feels to me like he unknowingly senses in her the soul of a special friend/lover from a past life.

So I'm curious, what did you feel when you saw 'You're Welcome'? Cordy's send-off episode. For me, it was almost a relief to find out she'd died because listening to her talking about taking off on Angel was pissing me off, that was just NOT her yet there was no longer an excuse for it not to be, but it was so heart wrenching. Though I knew she couldn't have been permanently back it was still a shock and DB with his astounding ability to communicate his characters' emotions with facal expressions...those eyes, the years breaking through in that final moment...oh PTB have mercy on my heart!
http://i61.tinypic.com/23ij97t.jpg

Stoney
31-08-15, 09:23 AM
i have finished 'angel' now. i have to say that i think the 'angel' series finale was much stronger than 'buffy', but i do feel like this series ended too soon. i don't know anything about what was going on with the show at the time, but at the end of s5 were they uncertain if the show was going to come back for a sixth season, or did they know s5 was the end of it? i feel the series could have gone on for at least another season (especially with illyria, i love fred and all, but illyria was a whole new character that i would have loved to have seen fleshed out even more - especially with her learning human behaviour/emotions, and wanting to learn from wesley - before they killed him *cries*)

I really disliked Not Fade Away. I didn't particularly like Chosen either because a) the empowerment spell was forcing something onto people with no warning, and b) they won because of a trinket that someone else had just brought to them. But NFA was pretty dreadful imo. My issue with it is that the idea that they should go out in a blaze of one moment of glory is a terrible and defeatist idea. They knew that others would fill the place of the black thorn members they take out so there was only temporary disruption in it. If they had just walked out of the front door together they could have gone on to fight the good fight on the ground doing good rather than what they opted for. It worked if Angel had stayed broken from his meaning, disillusioned and disconnected from his 'life' to be this negative (which undoes the point of Cordelia bringing him back to his purpose so the notion the vision kiss suggested this miserable plan is rubbish). Lorne too had seemed disillusioned really and was struggling all season. But having Spike, Wes, and Gunn just really easily jump on board this plan was poor. Spike had been trying to find his path as a hero and had been struggling. He does feel value in sacrificing himself and has a tendency to follow others up until this point so that could have worked for him. But that kind of undoes him stretching out on his own that he was managing until they used Fred's death to have him do this total about-face on the matter of thinking them working there was terrible. So again, it was just a negative thing. And on top of all that, Angel lied to them when they were deciding who was going to take out which members. He said he was going for Sebassis when he knew that he had already poisoned him. So he went off on his own secret mission preference to fight with Marcus, whilst Wes got killed doing what he had been asked and Gunn likely mortally wounded. The only good thing about NFA imo is that it stopped midfight which kind of fits with their lives in them always fighting. It is a shame that the very attitude about going with the idiotic kamikaze plan negates that fighting spirit.


i was a little bummed that the episode (title?) where angel and spike to to italy to save buffy, didn't actually feature SMG, but (and i might be one of the few) i loved the banter and immature interaction that went on between spike and angel. when they're at the disco and spike gets confused and accidentally punches angel, and then angel attacks him, i was hurting so much from laughing at them (i love good physical humor). also funny to see how andrew turned out (seriously?! a ladies man for the italian women? lol love it!)

There are parts of the comedy that are funny but it does also make them both look like utter idiots. The Italian head of W&H is pretty terrible and the way that they had Spike sulk over the loss of his coat as this trophy that he had worked hard for was just offensive characterisation. He couldn't bear to wear it in BtVS S7 and had to need to put it on to get his connection back to fight the good fight. But TGIQ just makes him look like a soulless ass again. The best I can try and roll with it is by telling myself that Spike was worried about losing that connection in himself to being able to put on the front that let him still be able to fight but that he wasn't going to share that level of insecurity with Angel so he came out with all the nonsense he said to him about the coat. But really it was character bashing writing that drives me spare.


also, can the 'buffy' seasons 8, 9, 10 issues be bought in individual volumes per season? i'm so confused with comic books that i don't even know where to begin to look. and... same thing with the 'angel' comics. any links you can provide (amazon? TFAW?) would be helpful. thanks (in advance)!

The first 17 issues were the ones that Whedon had a hand in for After the Fall. The ongoing series had nothing to do with him. But in fact some of those first 17 don't either because it was intended to be a 12 issue series but Brian Lynch extended it and we don't know what he added (although I believe the inclusion of Cordelia was something Joss said he didn't want that Brian Lynch ignored). But it is generally accepted as canon even though we know that BL messed around with what they agreed. There is a Spike After the Fall as well that fits in before his appearance in Angel After the Fall. Joss' name isn't on that one but it is generally accepted as it just fits in to get to where he is in Angel AtF.

So the first 17 issues are what you want. I think they are in 6 volumes called After the Fall and the ongoing series was just called 'Angel'. But I'm not 100% on that and my copies are not easy to access at the moment to double check for you, but I think that is correct. BtVS Seasons 8, 9 are available in Trade Paper Backs that group issues. I don't think S10 (which is the current season) has started to come out in the TPBs yet but it may have. Otherwise you would need to go for the individual issues. You may want to consider getting the digital versions from Dark Horse for the BtVS Seasons.


i'm having great fun rewatching both series with my sister, we only just finished 'fool for love' yesterday. my sis' is quite the spike fan. she's been complaining that there should have been a spin-off series called 'spike' (and i don't disagree, he's an amazingly intricate, complex character that i feel i need to see more of).

Well you aren't going to get disagreement about how amazing Spike is from me. :biggrin1:


i'm glad that the alternate ending for 'chosen' didn't happen, that wouldn't have felt right either.

I have no idea what that was??? I am often surprised that people spend a lot of time talking about what they were going to do in eps but didn't because they didn't opt to go that way.


as for spike, on my 2nd viewing of the series i'm having a different view of his love for buffy in its early stages (sniffing her sweater, stealing her panties), though that's still rather creepy to me, i am viewing it in a way like spike isn't a normal person, he's a vampire. a vampire that once swore he was going to kill buffy, he's the 'big bad', and he has this reputation to uphold. so it's not like he can go about expressing his love for her like angel did, or how riley does. he's trying to keep it under wraps and only deal with it alone. he doesn't want to be seen by others as weaker for having fallen in love with buffy, so he has to be the way he is about it. if that makes any sense at all. it nearly chokes me up/tears when he's going to go shoot her with a rifle, and he sees her outside in tears after her mom tells her she's going to the hospital for further exams to see what is going on with her health. that's just one more step in the right direction for him, it was a way he could express his feelings for her without actually saying them out loud. for sure buffy saw the rifle, and figured out what he might have come by to do, but he did not. instead he sat with her, touched her back to offer comfort, and they sat there in silence: end episode. i LOVE that moment. love it. i can't wait to see this 'ship play out again with eyes that have seen it before. i love the spike/buffy 'ship so much.

The complexity of their entire story together is great. They have so many similarities from when they first meet, both being seen as atypical to their kind and unpredictable, resourceful fighters. To see Spike slowly evolve as he does is fantastic. The background they give him with William just gives it so much depth and I personally love the gutsy move they did with Seeing Red. With how far he had come there had to be a big catalyst to push Spike further and him seeing the inner discord he had between monster/man had to be about him failing his own expectations of how he could walk the line. And he sure did that when he attacked Buffy. So it was a really great piece of writing for the character imo. I understand why some people don't like it but he had to have something big happen to spur him to choose to go and get his soul back. Just a shame they mucked up by overplaying the silly chip plot twist. Oh well.


i'm just a non-committed 'shipper for the top buffy 'ships of the series (and my views on riley/buffy are better the second time around as well - i actually think, at the end of the day, the best relationship choice for buffy would have been riley, but it wasn't meant to be).

I think Bangel was good for both of them when the relationship occurred but I'm not into the love for ever romance idea so it loses ongoing interest for me. I think it makes them both look a bit silly to pedestal it like that. But in BtVS S1-3 I liked how they explored them. Buffy/Riley was never going to work because Buffy never really felt a deep connection to him. When they were first getting together, around her finding out about the Initiative, they had a lot of disagreement in how they looked upon what they did that Buffy decided to brush past and give it a go anyway. It was no great surprise therefore that they continued to misunderstand each other and eventually it pulled them apart. They were just, imo, a really bad match.


i'm running out of thoughts (i have so many!), but in closing i want to say that i wish 'angel' the series had at least another season so perhaps we could have seen angel and spike grow up in each others presence. the first season of them really being together, working together was ok for that immature regression, but i would have absolutely loved it to see angel and spike grow to respect each other more, and behave like mature adults most of the time, than the way that they were with each other in s5. i have no qualms in admitting that angel and spike are my top two favorite characters of both series. they're the best (among other great characters, of course).

I won't comment on Angel/Spike in case you do decide to read the comics. :p Spike and Wes were probably my favourite characters across both series, with Angel and Connor as top ones too.


Since Angel had to deal with Spuffy I think it was a gyp that Buffy didn't have to deal with Cangel.
Tidbit 2: In the original script of 'Chosen' that graveyard scene was extended to include Angel telling Buffy that he loved Cordy and about Connor but it was cut because it was felt that it confused Angel's storyline with Buffy's. This makes no sense to me but I still consider it to have happened just off screen. After Buffy had rubbed she and Spike in his face Angel deserved that, but he'd always been treated with less consideration than Buffy romantically which annoys me.

I think that is really unfair. Angel only 'found out' about Buffy and Spike being close because he could scent Spike on Buffy. She didn't rub anything in his face but just told him that Spike was in her heart which was a pretty enigmatic way of making it clear that he mattered to her without getting into the ins and outs of their relationship. Something that Angel chose to entirely forget when he winds Spike up about how little he mattered to Buffy and that it was all just sex in his jealousy in AtS 5. He knew it would hurt Spike and press all the right buttons and he also knew that it wasn't true so it was pretty scuddy behaviour. I can understand why they didn't get into the reveal of Connor, and Cordelia even really, because I would expect Buffy to be emotionally affected by those bits of information and at least mention it to others after seeing Angel and that didn't really fit into the BtVS story. Pretty much like including the I Love You and honest reflection of Spuffy wasn't felt to fit into AtS so they brushed past it.


It's answered in the comics, not sure if it's in 'After the Fall' or the BTVS seasons but I'll put it in a spoiler tag and it'll be completely up to you whteher or not you want to know.
(though the circumstances are unknown to me) I was told Angel receives the Shanshu but he gives it to Spike as his blessing to Spuffy...who apparently get back together in season 10 of BTVS so perhaps it happens somewhere in there.

That isn't accurate.Spike isn't given the Shanshu. He and Buffy are currently together but he is very much still a vampire, although definitely there are rumblings of disquiet within him at still being a monster, even with his soul. Angel just had a crossover and was very unhappy about Spike/Buffy. He told Buffy he was OK with it, but as he left with Willow he told her that it wasn't hard to say because he doesn't think it will last. So not really positive feels from him at all.


Exactly this is how I comfort myself about the whole thing being a fantasy, by applying the logic that this was Angel's fantasy, this was what he desired. He may not have actually been there but his heart, his feelings were.

That was certainly how I always took that episode, real confirmation of what Cordelia had come to mean to him.

Cordelia
01-09-15, 12:07 AM
I didn't particularly like Chosen either because a) the empowerment spell was forcing something onto people with no warning, and b) they won because of a trinket that someone else had just brought to them.

I agree with this. The ultimate threat being an army of ubervamps and their demise being a a single wipout by a glowing amulet was very anti-climactic for me and while it provided a strong turning point in Spike's character, that amulet invalidated the whole build-up of the season with the potentials.
Also great point about the empowerment spell; that can be classified as emotional rape. Considering how Buffy had felt when it was thrown at her it was kind of hypocritical to put that obligation on an entire population, not to mention that the girls were never asked and those not in the army, living unaware of what was inside them all around the world got the most unfair end of it having something very scary happen to them without any warning. Then lets not forget Dana in AtS who as a traumatized young woman became psychotically violent and chopped off a dude's hands as a result of her activiation.


I think that is really unfair. Angel only 'found out' about Buffy and Spike being close because he could scent Spike on Buffy. She didn't rub anything in his face but just told him that Spike was in her heart which was a pretty enigmatic way of making it clear that he mattered to her without getting into the ins and outs of their relationship...I can understand why they didn't get into the reveal of Connor, and Cordelia even really, because I would expect Buffy to be emotionally affected by those bits of information and at least mention it to others after seeing Angel and that didn't really fit into the BtVS story.

So she chose to remain vauge, what does that matter? She still chose to reveal that Spike meant anything to her when she could have sent Angel away without giving him jack. No one said his intention had been to spell out his entire development with Cordelia and I doubt he would have gone into the whole Darla thing since while he'd never undo Connor for the world, that time period wasn't something he was proud of. Since he considered Cordelia Connor's mother figure I don't see him having a problem just allowing the implication that he'd concieved a child with her.

Isn't the central message of these two shows that life isn't always puppy dogs and rainbows? He owed her nothing not even that statement, but he was entitled to make it after she'd chosen to, and hers was pretty damn strong, I wouldn't say "he's in my heart" was sparing his feelings, she damn well knows Spike is his personal rival and that she'd betrayed Angel's sacrafice of their realtionship, which had been what was most precious to him at the time, to give her a normal life by hooking up with another vampire (Also a friendly reminder that she doesn't remember IWRY).
It would have set them on even ground, both having moved on and sometimes the truth hurts like a mofo.

I disagree that Buffy would have discussed the Cordelia/Connor reveal with anyone, she'd always kept her crossover meetings with Angel private. What would she expect anyone to even say? There is no comfort that can be offered to her, again they'd properly ended their realtionship, he'd done no wrong to her in moving on and building his own life nor did Cordelia in getting close to him and capturing his heart, he was legitamately available.

I value your opinions greatly Stoney, you are one of the most insightful and eloquent people I've met in the Buffyverse so no hard feelings, I've mentioned that my views can be harsh but that I don't sugar coat. One of my fav Cordy quotes is kind of a warning sign I come with: "I think it, I say it, that's my way".

Also, please, anyone, let me know if I ever come across as biased because I always try NOT to be but have a colorful rap sheet of my wording giving off a negative tone/image I don't intend.

Stoney
01-09-15, 02:10 AM
So she chose to remain vauge, what does that matter? She still chose to reveal that Spike meant anything to her when she could have sent Angel away without giving him jack.

Not really because my point was that Angel brought it up, that he could smell Spike on her. It sounded very much like he could tell they had been physically close from it in the way that he raised it and then quizzed her and really pressed for information to find out if Spike was part of the reason why she was saying to leave. Including outright asking her to tell him their relationship status. It was all directed by him and if she had just said, I'm not saying anything (which is what she pretty much did in extracting herself from giving details as much as she could to his questions) it would still have made it clear there was 'something' going on...
BUFFY: No, I need you gone.
ANGEL: Why?
BUFFY: If I lose, if this thing gets past Sunnydale, then it's days—maybe hours—before the rest of the world goes. I need a second front, and I need you to run it.
ANGEL: OK... (crosses his arms) that's one reason. What's the other?
BUFFY: (walks out of the tomb) There is no other.
ANGEL: Is it Spike? (Buffy stops walking, turns to face Angel) You're not telling me something. And his scent, I remember it pretty well.
BUFFY: You vampires. Did anybody ever tell you the whole smelling people thing's a little gross? (walks away)
ANGEL: (follows) Is he your boyfriend?
BUFFY: Is that your business?
ANGEL: You in love with him? OK, maybe I'm outta line, but this is kind of a curve ball for me. I mean, we are talking about Spike here.
BUFFY: It's different. He's different. He has a soul now.
ANGEL: (stops) Oh. (looks up) Well.
BUFFY: What?
ANGEL: That's great. (mumbling to himself) Everyone's got a soul now.
BUFFY: He'll make a difference.
ANGEL: (mumbling) You know, I started it. The whole having a soul. Before it was all the cool new thing.
BUFFY: Oh, my God. Are you 12?
ANGEL: I'm getting the brush off for Captain Peroxide. It doesn't necessarily bring out the champion in me.
BUFFY: You're not getting the brush off. Are you just gonna come here and go all Dawson on me every time I have a boyfriend?
ANGEL: Aha! (points) Boyfriend!
BUFFY: He's not. But...he is in my heart.
ANGEL: That'll end well. (walks away, leans on a tombstone)


Since he considered Cordelia Connor's mother figure I don't see him having a problem just allowing the implication that he'd concieved a child with her.

Wow, that would have been disingenuous. It would also have come across as pretty petty (to the viewer), like it was just said to hurt her that it hadn't been with her. I think the fact that the whole Connor situation was very bizarre/complex and, as you say, covered some things Angel was less than proud of makes it totally tough for him to just bring up easily or concisely. Mentioning what had happened to Cordelia though wasn't such a hard thing to explain succinctly.


Isn't the central message of these two shows that life isn't always puppy dogs and rainbows? He owed her nothing not even that statement, but he was entitled to make it after she'd chosen to, and hers was pretty damn strong, I wouldn't say "he's in my heart" was sparing his feelings, she damn well knows Spike is his personal rival and that she'd betrayed Angel's sacrafice of their realtionship, which had been what was most precious to him at the time, to give her a normal life by hooking up with another vampire (Also a friendly reminder that she doesn't remember IWRY).
It would have set them on even ground, both having moved on and sometimes the truth hurts like a mofo.

As he was pressing about Spike and was the one to raise it, it would have made it look really immature, like it was tit for tat and belittled his relationship with Cordelia, imo, to try and 'get back' at Buffy after she answered his questions about Spike. Buffy isn't beholden to Angel's perception of what is best for her in that she needs to stick to what he thought she should do with her life. He chose not to be a part of it, twice. Whether he thought that was a sacrifice or not, it was still a choice he made.


I disagree that Buffy would have discussed the Cordelia/Connor reveal with anyone, she'd always kept her crossover meetings with Angel private. What would she expect anyone to even say? There is no comfort that can be offered to her, again they'd properly ended their realtionship, he'd done no wrong to her in moving on and building his own life nor did Cordelia in getting close to him and capturing his heart, he was legitamately available.

True but I was thinking that if she found out Cordelia was in a coma she might have mentioned that to the other people who knew her. It was that which I was thinking might have emotionally affected her in the update on Cordelia.

Thanks for the compliment and no offense taken btw. It is difficult sometimes to get tone bang on when you are writing out thoughts and I know I can seem curt and abrupt. If people are talking and listening to each other then I think all is good. A very Cordy quote, I always liked that one too. My rewatch just got up to To Shanshu and I enjoyed it even more than I had the first time I watched it. Now, knowing where it all goes, it really got me how much the attacks on Wes and particularly Cordelia affected Angel and were the connections he had to hit to hurt him. Knowing the cruel ways his relationships will be hurt (Jasmine/Holtz) was really :( inducing.

vampmogs
01-09-15, 12:37 PM
After Buffy had rubbed she and Spike in his face Angel deserved that

Buffy did no such thing and that's a very unfair accusation to make against her. If you recall, it was Angel who pried into Buffy's relationship with Spike and Buffy was very reluctant to discuss it with him at all. Buffy never mentioned Spike whatsoever until Angel revealed that he could smell Spike's scent on her and it made Buffy very uncomfortable. Angel then proceeds to follow Buffy outside when her first instinct is to remove herself from any further conversation on the matter and then Angel blatantly asks Buffy "are you in love with him?" and Buffy asks "is that any of your business?" which, by the way, it's NOT. Buffy owes Angel no explanation or justification for who she chooses to date. After Angel acts petulant and immature Buffy angrily asks him "are you just going to come here and go all Dawson on me every time I have a boyfriend?" which is a reference to Angel's past aggressive, testosterone-poisoned behaviour with Riley in S4, and then Angel acts childishly about her use of the word "boyfriend" which is a slip of the tongue and forces Buffy to elaborate briefly.

There was no "rubbing it in Angel's face." It was Angel who wouldn't drop the subject and it was Angel who demanded answers to very personal questions that Buffy was very reluctant to discuss. If Angel didn't like her answer, well, maybe he should have thought about that before prying into her business!


He owed her nothing not even that statement, but he was entitled to make it after she'd chosen to, and hers was pretty damn strong, I wouldn't say "he's in my heart" was sparing his feelings, she damn well knows Spike is his personal rival and that she'd betrayed Angel's sacrafice of their realtionship, which had been what was most precious to him at the time, to give her a normal life by hooking up with another vampire (Also a friendly reminder that she doesn't remember IWRY).

Buffy didn't "betray" anything because she doesn't have to live her life according to Angel's values or what Angel decides is best for her. Angel gave Buffy no say in the matter when he condescendingly decided to break up with her "for her own good" and decided that he knows what is best for her. Buffy had no say in the decision and was forced to go along with it because Angel made it perfectly clear that he didn't consider her "rational" or mature enough to make up her own mind. Angel is responsible for his own actions and Buffy certainly doesn't owe it to Angel to live the rest of her life trying to live up to Angel's standards of what she 'deserves', regardless of her own opinion on the subject. Buffy was a 22 year old woman and certainly not beholden to her high school ex-boyfriend to live her life as he saw fit.

It'd also be incredibly hypocritical of Angel to be upset over Buffy dating another vampire when you seem to have forgotten that Angel "betrays" his own reasons for breaking up with Buffy by trying to pursue a relationship with Cordelia. Was Cordelia not a human woman and would their relationship not have been plagued with the same limitations that Buffy/Angel were? According to Angel he broke up with Buffy because he was "unable to take her 'into the light', or "make love to her", or ever "give her children" and yet all those things are true of Angel/Cordy as well. So why is Buffy "betraying" Angel by having a relationship with another vampire but Angel isn't being a hypocrite by pursuing a relationship with another human woman when it was Angel who claimed that a vampire/human relationship was unfair to the human and that the woman deserves more? It wasn't Buffy who decided that a human/vampire relationship was incompatible and ended things - it was Angel.

And well, Buffy doesn't remember IWRY because Angel stole her memories against her will and once again decided to make decisions for Buffy without consulting her or letting them make the decision together. So you can hardly hold it against Buffy in any way that she may or may not have unintentionally reminded Angel of IWRY when she has no memories of that event because Angel agreed to wipe her memory without asking. That's hardly Buffy's fault and I can't say I feel a great deal of sympathy for Angel under the circumstances.

Dipstick
01-09-15, 06:26 PM
Tidbit 2: In the original script of 'Chosen' that graveyard scene was extended to include Angel telling Buffy that he loved Cordy and about Connor but it was cut because it was felt that it confused Angel's storyline with Buffy's.

Do you have the quote that describes this original script of Chosen that referred to Conner and Cordelia? I'm really curious to imagine how it played out, because as stated below, I'm curious how Angel would finesse telling the Conner and Cordelia saga. Because, as stated below, it would take some doing to tell the story briefly but honestly and in a manner where Angel comes off looking like a good coveted catch of a guy to Buffy that she should be immediately jealous over.

But then, on a more substantial level, I always felt it was completely disgusting that Angel didn't tell the people who grew up with Cordelia that she was in a coma. Angel dumped Cordelia in a W&H-run hospital but he couldn't think to try to see if Willow could magically restore Cordelia just as Willow gave Angel his soul and protected it from what proved to be mega-powerful Jasmine, like two weeks ago. There were bigger life-and-death matters at stake than who was boffing who, especially for someone who believes Cordelia was Angel's best romantic partner. Angel thought to request Willow's help with Fred when Fred was actually dead and officially overtaken by an Old One as opposed to alive but in a coma- and IMO, the only distinguishing factors were that (1) Angel wasn't distracted by who his ex-girlfriend from four years ago was into and (2) Angel wouldn't own up to it, but he was inclined to just write Cordelia off as a loss because she made his life unpleasant for the last few months, even though most of it wasn't even her fault.

Although:


Since Angel had to deal with Spuffy I think it was a gyp that Buffy didn't have to deal with Cangel.


After Buffy had rubbed she and Spike in his face Angel deserved that, but he'd always been treated with less consideration than Buffy romantically which annoys me. This is why I am glad they didn't go with the wish ending.

You know, I agree with vampmogs entirely that Buffy treated Angel fine in-story and I'm no fan of Angel. However, I do have to see your point. On a Doylist level, Angel had to carry jealous baggage with Riley and Spike and Angel was really weighed with that baggage for an entire year in S5, as it defined his main antagonistic interpersonal relationship. However, Buffy never really looked bad in that way. Buffy was jealous of Darla, Drusilla, and Faith- but for the former two, Buffy's jealousy was totally excused because they were total villains when Buffy was jealous. Faith was a little more complicated, and Buffy doesn't come off well for a lot of people in Sanctuary, but you know, *I* ascribe all kinds of justice and gravitas to Buffy's romantic jealousy of Faith because it's inextricably tied with Buffy reacting to Faith's current or recent criminality.

Buffy never had to carry the baggage of being jealous of an Angel moving on to his own canonically respected romantic relationship with a White Hat. Some of that probably is the narrative protecting Buffy. Although, I agree with vampmogs that Buffy could righteously call Angel a hypocrite for moving on with her peer if Angel wanted to be all "I have someone NEW in my life. Someone I trust..." about it. That said, Angel never really had a full-blown, dating, make out romance with Cordelia, and to be fair, some of that was Angel holding back because Cordelia was a human woman and some of it was external events, like Cordelia choosing to go for Groo or Conner and NOT Angel. Most of Angel's version of romancing Cordelia was angsting about how they couldn't be together or being aggressive to his romantic rivals for her, especially to his own son. However, lol, I don't think any of that would exactly make Buffy jealous and long for what Cordelia has with Angel. Although, I dunno, Buffy could be jealous of some of the Cangel romantic drama of S3-5, even if she logically understood that it's not fun for anyone.

Cordelia
01-09-15, 09:28 PM
My apologies that I'd forgotten some of the details, during mt watch of that whole thing I was actually more focused on how strange I found Angel's tone but again his bringing it up still didn't obligate Buffy to give him anything.


As he was pressing about Spike and was the one to raise it, it would have made it look really immature, like it was tit for tat and belittled his relationship with Cordelia, imo, to try and 'get back' at Buffy after she answered his questions about Spike. Buffy isn't beholden to Angel's perception of what is best for her in that she needs to stick to what he thought she should do with her life. He chose not to be a part of it, twice. Whether he thought that was a sacrifice or not, it was still a choice he made.

To be honest, part of me does also feel like he did the more mature thing in not putting Cordelia/Connor out there. I actually couldn't stand that he had to have an attitude over the whole Spike thing when it shouldn't have mattered to him. The "OMG are you 12" line was perfect.
It seems I might have spoken too much based on the notion that I would have liked to see Buffy's reaction to Angel's feelings for Cordy and I'd never invisioned that the could-have-been reveal in 'Chosen' would have been him "getting back at Buffy". I'd always seen it as he'd have been establishing his ground, that he was annoyed at her for making a choice he saw as immature but it didn't faze him personally. The Cordelia portion anyway, I can understand how bringing up Connor might not have fit in that way so well. Let's not forget that she'd earlier expressed having wished they'd get back together (that whole encounter was full of contradictions on both their parts).


True but I was thinking that if she found out Cordelia was in a coma she might have mentioned that to the other people who knew her. It was that which I was thinking might have emotionally affected her in the update on Cordelia.


Ah, alright. That's absolutely an entirely different angle but I'm not sure of it either.
I'm not entirely convinced Angel would mention the coma nor that Buffy would bring even that up with the Scoobies. Cordelia wasn't exactly someone they'd classified as a 'friend' and they weren't able to respect the strong, mature, selfless person Cordelia grew into because they never knew that person.

Now I could see her mentioning it exclusively to Xander since they'd been in a pretty intimate relationship and he'd at one time very much cared about Cordelia, just as Willow had contacted Angel when Buffy had died but I'm not sure that information would have much meaning to anyone else, not to say that they wouldn't feel badly though.


Buffy certainly doesn't owe it to Angel to live the rest of her life trying to live up to Angel's standards of what she 'deserves', regardless of her own opinion on the subject.

I never made any such implication...or if I did it was me screwing up my wording as I said I have a rap sheet for. Whether or not it's a valid viewpoint is irrelevant to the reason I put it out there. Right, justified, wrong, petty, immature, whatever it was, that's how I've considered Angel might have seen it. It's well established that he responds very immaturely to Spike in general so why not? Either that or he was just annoyed at her for still being as immature as he remembered her, maybe even more so (which he would again assess about her hooking up with this "Immortal" dude in 'The Girl in Question'). Again I'm not arguing the right or wrong of this viewpoint just stating that this was how he felt.
I don't see him as having been jealous but I'm likely just taking an idealistic perspective.

As I believe I mentioned Angel didn't owe her anything and in subtext I was granting the same to Buffy. What she chose to reveal to him regardless of what he asked her for and how hard he pushed, was her choice. Just as it was his choice to leave his personal life out of the conversation.


My rewatch just got up to To Shanshu and I enjoyed it even more than I had the first time I watched it. Now, knowing where it all goes, it really got me how much the attacks on Wes and particularly Cordelia affected Angel and were the connections he had to hit to hurt him.

'To Shanshu in LA' is one of my favorite episodes, I believe that's when I'd first really been engaged by the idea of Cordelia and Angel as a ship (though now I'm wondering how I don't remember feeling it in 'Hero' or 'Parting Gifts' since Doyle's death was really where their bond begun).
I also believe that it was then, when Angel saw her in that vegetative state she'd been put in by her psychotic vision fit, faced with the notion that he could lose her, that he'd first realized how much she meant to him. The way his face just lit up when she was pulled out of it and looked at him said it all and more.


Do you have the quote that describes this original script of Chosen that referred to Conner and Cordelia? I'm really curious to imagine how it played out, because as stated below, I'm curious how Angel would finesse telling the Conner and Cordelia saga. Because, as stated below, it would take some doing to tell the story briefly but honestly and in a manner where Angel comes off looking like a good coveted catch of a guy to Buffy that she should be immediately jealous over.

I'm itching to know myself, unfortunately there isn't a transcript available, just the note that it was intended:
http://buffy.wikia.com/wiki/Chosen#Behind_the_Scenes

Stoney
01-09-15, 09:38 PM
My apologies that I'd forgotten some of the details, during mt watch of that whole thing I was actually more focused on how strange I found Angel's tone but again his bringing it up still didn't obligate Buffy to give him anything.

But she pretty much didn't. He really pressed the situation and if this...


Let's not forget that she'd earlier expressed having wished they'd get back together (that whole encounter was full of contradictions on both their parts).

...is in reference to the cookie dough stuff, that came after the Spike conversation that I quoted, after Angel's 'that'll end well' comment as Buffy is trying to explain she isn't thinking in terms of her happily ever after right here and now. The entire conversation about their relationship really was prompted and pushed by Angel.


'To Shanshu in LA' is one of my favorite episodes, I believe that's when I'd first really been engaged by the idea of Cordelia and Angel as a ship (though now I'm wondering how I don't remember feeling it in 'Hero' or 'Parting Gifts' since Doyle's death was really where their bond begun).

I really didn't like Cordelia/Doyle as a ship. But yes, To Shanshu really showed how far Angel had come in the season from the guy Doyle first was talking to about needing to connect with real people, real lives. :)

Dipstick
01-09-15, 09:58 PM
Ah, alright. That's absolutely an entirely different angle but I'm not sure of it either.
I'm not entirely convinced Angel would mention the coma nor that Buffy would bring even that up with the Scoobies. Cordelia wasn't exactly someone they'd classified as a 'friend' and they weren't able to respect the strong, mature, selfless person Cordelia grew into because they never knew that person.

Now I could see her mentioning it exclusively to Xander since they'd been in a pretty intimate relationship and he'd at one time very much cared about Cordelia, just as Willow had contacted Angel when Buffy had died but I'm not sure that information would have much meaning to anyone else, not to say that they wouldn't feel badly though

Xander and Cordelia were romantically intimate and she was Xander's first girlfriend. Willow and Cordelia kept up communication post-high school. Willow would drop her own apocalypse issues to help Cordelia with an AI hacking project (Blind Date), call Angel and Wesley in a hurry to warn them about Harmony being a vampire, no matter how blase Cordelia was about it, and Wesley got that Willow would want to visit with Cordelia for a spell, even with a soul-crisis on the horizon. Buffy saved Cordelia's life, countless times. I think the information would have had meaning to all them. (Giles too, probably.) Xander and Willow knew Cordelia longer, than *anyone* in LA and even if they thought she was a pain in the ass a lot of the time, they still cared about her on a life or death level.

Also, it's practically beneficial. W&H should not have had the final medical/mystical say-so on getting Cordelia out of her coma. Point blank. There's no good reason why Angel left the Willow-stone unturned. When I contrast it to Willow making the drive out to sit in the Hyperion for hours to inform Angel and Co. in person that Buffy passed away, Angel's inability to even relay the Cordelia-news because he has Spuffy to obsess over just becomes even more despicable and pathetic.

Geez, I wonder if Cordelia's parents know or if it's just like the Burkles. I really bet that they don't know that their only child was murdered, because AI didn't care to inform them.


I'm itching to know myself, unfortunately there isn't a transcript available, just the note that it was intended:
[/CODE]http://buffy.wikia.com/wiki/Chosen#Behind_the_Scenes

Thank you for the link!

vampmogs
02-09-15, 01:26 AM
I never made any such implication...or if I did it was me screwing up my wording as I said I have a rap sheet for. Whether or not it's a valid viewpoint is irrelevant to the reason I put it out there. Right, justified, wrong, petty, immature, whatever it was, that's how I've considered Angel might have seen it.

Which is fine but your post seemed rather resentful and critical towards Buffy as if she's obliged to live her life according to how Angel wanted her to live it. Saying that she "betrayed" him by having a relationship with another vampire is highly unfair. It's one thing to discuss how Angel may have viewed the situation, for right or wrong, but it did seem like you were angry at Buffy too.


As I believe I mentioned Angel didn't owe her anything and in subtext I was granting the same to Buffy. What she chose to reveal to him regardless of what he asked her for and how hard he pushed, was her choice. Just as it was his choice to leave his personal life out of the conversation.

Sure. But when Buffy tried to avoid discussing Spike with Angel all together and eventually caved in only after Angel wouldn't drop the subject and insisted she tell him, then it's very unfair to say that Buffy "rubbed his face in it." That's not true whatsoever. She took no satisfaction in telling Angel about Spike and she wanted to avoid the subject completely. It was Angel who was so persistent in finding out what was going on between them and at the end of the day you're criticising Buffy for being honest after Angel wouldn't drop the subject.

But no. Not in the way it was written or acted was Buffy ever "rubbing his face in it." Rubbing his face in it would be Buffy jumping at the chance to tell Angel about Spike, or boasting about how much they love each other, or how great the sex was, or taking satisfaction in seeing Angel get jealous and upset, and all of that couldn't be further from the truth. She didn't even plan to tell Angel about Spike and wanted to avoid the subject all together until Angel smelled him which, by the way, Buffy calls "gross." Buffy was very reluctant to share anything with Angel at all and actually wanted to send him away from Sunnydale to "work on a second front" without him finding about Spike whatsoever. It was Angel who cottoned on that Buffy had ulterior motives for wanting to keep him away and it was Angel who was insistent she tell him. Buffy's reluctance is the complete opposite of "rubbing his face in it." I think it's that phrase which a lot of us are disagreeing with you about so strongly because it implies something about Buffy that is really unfair and really untrue.

I don't think Whedon's original idea to have Angel tell Buffy about Cordelia got very far. To me, it always sounded like it was in his very early drafts of the scripts but it certainly never made it to print or anything like that. It was never in the shooting script or played out by the actors in any way. So I don't think we'll ever find it online because I think it was very early on in the writing process.

Cordelia
03-09-15, 01:30 AM
Geez, I wonder if Cordelia's parents know or if it's just like the Burkles. I really bet that they don't know that their only child was murdered, because AI didn't care to inform them.

This has been on my mind as well; if Angel had buried Cordelia or if her body was sent back to her parents but I believe you are being hasty to accuse A.I of not caring to contact them, remember everyone except Buffy's army fled Sunnydale and no one really knew of her extended family so perhaps they couldn't be found.
Unfortunate that they didn't do more with her death because I would have liked to meet her parents.

It's quite ironic that hardly any parents were shown in Sunnydale since the reason Joyce was so reoccurring was because it was felt it would be unrealistic to keep her off screen. Out of them all, however, Cordelia's intriuged me the most, perhaps because she's my favorite female character.

It seems like Angel must have been the one who buried her because according to the Buffy and Angel Wikia he reveals in an issue of 'Angel and Faith' that he'd tried to resurrect her but Wolfram & Hart's resources were too unreliable and volatile.

http://buffy.wikia.com/wiki/Live_Through_This,_Part_Two
(the tidbit is under 'Contunity').

For the record, I didn't exactly approve of what Illyria did with the Burkles nor that Wesley went along with it, I can appreciate that she seemed to have decent intentions but they had a right to mourn their daughter, their only child.


Which is fine but your post seemed rather resentful and critical towards Buffy as if she's obliged to live her life according to how Angel wanted her to live it. Saying that she "betrayed" him by having a relationship with another vampire is highly unfair. It's one thing to discuss how Angel may have viewed the situation, for right or wrong, but it did seem like you were angry at Buffy too.

My apologies that it came across to you in that way, giving the wrong tone with my wording is a bad habit I am working on but part of it was also that while his attitude that entire encounter annoyed me, I hadn't remembered Angel being that pushy. In addition I'd like to establish that I've dropped the whole 'rubbed it in his face' thing.


I don't think Whedon's original idea to have Angel tell Buffy about Cordelia got very far. To me, it always sounded like it was in his very early drafts of the scripts but it certainly never made it to print or anything like that. It was never in the shooting script or played out by the actors in any way. So I don't think we'll ever find it online because I think it was very early on in the writing process.

Yeah I didn't expect that it would be obtainable, but I'd still be interested in whatever they had, big or small.

buffylover
03-09-15, 10:06 AM
My apologies that it came across to you in that way, giving the wrong tone with my wording is a bad habit I am working on but part of it was also that while his attitude that entire encounter annoyed me, I hadn't remembered Angel being that pushy. In addition I'd like to establish that I've dropped the whole 'rubbed it in his face' thing.


Don't apologize it's your own interptretion everybody see things differently that what makes the discussing more fun. :heart:

Dipstick
03-09-15, 01:13 PM
This has been on my mind as well; if Angel had buried Cordelia or if her body was sent back to her parents but I believe you are being hasty to accuse A.I of not caring to contact them, remember everyone except Buffy's army fled Sunnydale and no one really knew of her extended family so perhaps they couldn't be found.

I'm just not inclined to give AI that benefit of the doubt- I read AI very darkly. I read the group as so insulated and focused on their own (usually meaning *Angel's*) pain that they fail to consider outsiders. They didn't ask Fred if she had family when they rescued her from Pylea or even considered the possibility. On her death-bed, Fred asked Wesley to tell her parents about her death. He and the gang didn't tell the parents. (I actually have some empathy for Wesley allowing Illyria to keep up the charade in front of the Burkles. At that point, it really became too difficult to explain. Mainly, for Wesley, who IMO, wasn't psychologically "right" after Fred's death.)

Angel was *right there* in Sunnydale, interacting with the general of the Scoobies where Cordelia served for over two years. He was a few blocks away from Cordelia's childhood acquaintances who knew Cordelia her entire life, one of whom was a super-powerful witch who could restore souls, bring back the dead, win a skirmish with Jasmine before they even knew that it was Jasmine.

Cordelia really needed to be serving purposes for *Angel* to get him to care about her (in Angel's showy melodramatic way). If Cordelia wasn't Angel's Girl Friday or his Shiny Purpose or his First Lady of AI, he constantly underrated her basic needs- the Beige Period in S2, how he turned on Cordelia for picking Conner over him, his lack of sensitivity at leaving Cordelia's corpse with Jasmine to the shock of Fred and Wesley, and how he dumped Cordelia's corpse in a W&H hospital without so much as getting a second medical or supernatural opinion in S5 and proceeded to dwell on how Spike had Buffy instead of his supposed True Love of his LA life.

Cordelia
04-09-15, 01:28 AM
Buffylover I appreciate that sentiment and completely agree with the notion that there is no wrong in any personal assessment, it's however a part of my nature to be a bit sensitive to getting on people's bad sides. I always stand by my opinions but also know when to concede to making a factual mistake.

Dipstick; Again you are missing the subtext.


Angel was *right there* in Sunnydale, interacting with the general of the Scoobies where Cordelia served for over two years.

I'm assuming you are referring to 'Chosen' and while he might have had a childish attitude towards the Spuffy reveal that didn't preoccupy him from his priorities. Remember he left because Buffy sent him away, he'd seemed intent on staying and fighting by her side as the amulet wearer in spite of her realtionship with Spike.
That also occurs after as I said Sunnydale was abandoned by all except the Scooby army whom had no reason to be in touch with Cordelia's parents thus possibly knowing where they went.


one of whom was a super-powerful witch who could restore souls, bring back the dead, win a skirmish with Jasmine before they even knew that it was Jasmine.

So you'd expected him to ask Willow to wake Cordelia from her Coma? It's not that simple; magic is unstable, volatile, consequential. Angel is aware of this; the central portryal in the Angel series is expiereiced adults vs. the teenagers/adolecents of BTVS. His running to Willow for eveyr magical problem he had would have been unhealthilly and naively dependent.

Willow was struggling with magic issues, something the Scoobies were wary of. Approaching her would not have gone well at this point especially once again considering that Buffy had insisted that Angel leave Sunnydale. They'd have sympthay for Cordelia's condition of course but would consider such an attempt reckless, they'd know that it could have a negative affect on Cordelia, particularly Buffy who was once on Cordelia's end of the situation.
Cordelia herself would have agreed with the recklessness and considered it a waste of resources and his time. She'd never accepted him giving his focus to her over his duty (remember the bathroom scene in 'That Vision Thing', how in 'Birthday' her concern was awaring Angel of the teenager in her vision rather than solving her own peril and backing up, how she'd broken down from her vision in 'heartthrob' AFTER she'd told Angel to go take care of it and the room had been cleared).

How can you be so sure that Willow was a match for Jasmine? Jasmine was the ultimate deceiver, she might have even deceived the PTB themselves as that could be one explaination she'd need Cordelia in the higher plain to have access to her(the other being that it wasn't a real higher plain).


At that point, it really became too difficult to explain. Mainly, for Wesley, who IMO, wasn't psychologically "right" after Fred's death.

I believe the same assessment could be made of Angel after Cordelia had fallen into a Coma and then after she died. First of all that whole 'Chosen' thing where he'd thrown himself at Buffy and then got juvinille about Spuffy, I believed that to be an act of emotional instability, he'd point blank told Gunn in 'The Cautonary Tale of Numero Cinco' that he'd felt disconnected, he'd stopped beliving in the shanshu and in himself.
Post-'You're Welcome' it's quite clear that he was projecting a lot of his pain from losing Cordelia onto the Fred/Illyria situation, though not to claim that he didn't care about Fred. He did quite deeply but it was held a heavy de ja vu for him considering the circumstances.

"I can't lose her. I lost Cordy."
- 'A Hole in the World'

"I lost Cordelia because some thing violated her, crawled in and used her up, no way in hell I'm letting that happen again!"

- 'A Hole in the World'


Cordelia really needed to be serving purposes for *Angel* to get him to care about her (in Angel's showy melodramatic way). If Cordelia wasn't Angel's Girl Friday or his Shiny Purpose or his First Lady of AI, he constantly underrated her basic needs-

Whoa!

"If I stopped having the visions, I wouldn't be able to help you, you wouldn't need me anymore"
"That's not why I need you, you're important"

- 'That Vision Thing'

Let's not forget that she'd gotten that notion after HE had suggested that perhaps if Lorne reached the PTB she could find relief by requesting to have the visions removed. It's confirmed how much he'd meant this when he then demanded to the conduit to take them away in exchange for her life in 'Birthday'.

What "purposes" did she "serve" him in early season one before she had the visions, even in the few episodes after other than petty little tasks he didn't even feel mattered like the A.I logo? Yet he kept her around, he defended her to Wesley who was constantly throwing out put downs about her being lazy in 'Expecting' and just barely spared Wilson's life after he'd raped her, again in 'Expecting'.

Cordelia was way more to Angel than simply "vision girl". She was his anchor, she kept him disciplined, confident, and brought out his humanity. She was his sunlight, no one ever made him smile like she did. He might not have outwardly realized that but he felt it. Even in BTVS, the episodes 'Halloween' and 'Some Assembly Required', how brief the encounters were aside, it clearly lit him up and made him feel carefree just to be around her.

As for how he viewed her "basic needs"; what do you call his bringing her alone enough food to feed to entire team because he forgot what she liked and took into consideration that she didn't like being asked if she needed anything after she'd been traumatized in 'Dead End' or bringing her piles of clothes which reflected that he knew her style and what she valued in a friend/parter to win her back from his dark crisis in 'Disharmony'?
NOTE: While in most cases the 'Disharmony' thing would have been shallow and petty, it happened to appeal to Cordelia as an individual. To her materialism was in depth; recall she'd once stated that she liked her guys "more spendy, less broody".

Both these acts prove that Angel paid attention to the little things that meant the most to her and earned her respect, not just to her visions which is something her breakup with Xander revealed she wanted (my memory could be faultering here, wasn't there a point where she accused Xander of not caring about their relationship because he wasn't bothering to try making it up to her after he'd kissed Willow?).

There is NO denying that Angel cared about his relationship with her not just what he superficially gained from her and not just the visions.


the Beige Period in S2

Remember when he said that the reason he'd fired them all was that he'd felt a darkness inside of him that he was afraid for them to be around? He probably felt that if he'd tried to explain it to them at the time they'd just want to get closer to the danger in attempt to support him, especially Cordelia. No this doesn't justify his actions but it wasn't as black and white as a blunt betrayal.


his lack of sensitivity at leaving Cordelia's corpse with Jasmine to the shock of Fred and Wesley

Um, she was dead weight and they were constantly changing hideouts to keep out of Jasmine's eye. There was a lot happening during that time that woud weight down on someone'd mind over a lifeless body but I'm sure it stung his heart greatly. Angel has never been one to be openly emotional except around Cordelia.


how he turned on Cordelia for picking Conner over him

In all fairness it's a huge deal for someone to screw their best friend's child. It's inappropriate and wrong in that it's illegal in the state of California, it's called satutory rape and Angel had trusted Cordelia with Connor more than anyone, had considered her his mother (not to mention he was closer to her than he'd ever been with anyone, he'd shared his desinty with her, his soul) but that aside you are forgetting that he hadn't yet figured out that that wasn't actually Cordelia.
Am I denying that he was irrational? Hell no! It was beyond entirely irrational that he didn't smell a mystical rat in this, that it didn't occur to him that the Cordelia he knew and fell in love with wasn't even a cougar let alone would never touch his son but that is irrelevant to this point. He wasn't judging the situation correctly but even it had been exactly what it had appeared to be he was pretty entitled to feel enraged and pained.

I can grant however that he might not have been responding to it from the 'criminally wrong and friendship betrayal' perspective, but rather as a competition which would be really inappropriate and idiotic. To be honest I don't recall for certain, it's been two years since I watched it and don't have any desire to re-watch season 4. There are too few parts of it I can stand.


and how he dumped Cordelia's corpse in a W&H hospital without so much as getting a second medical or supernatural opinion in S5

Alright, now you're just making assumptions. Cordelia's check in to the hospital was never on screen so how could it possibly be determined whether or not Angel had sought a second opinion of either nature?
And "dumped her body in a Wolfram and Hart hospital" is quite harsh wording. She needed medical support to have lasted as long as she did and when it is revealed that W&H owned St. Matthews? I'm assuming that's where she was, because she was clearly NOT in the W&H building while Fred seemingly was when she'd first collapsed.

The thing to remember here is the behind the scenes reason that there was no storyline acknowledging Cordelia's condition; Joss had thrown a conniption over Charisma getting pregnant, no longer wanted her on the show and seemingly lost respect for the character having torn her apart and thrown her away until she was needed to understudy the guest role in 'You're Welcome' (in case you weren't aware, it was initially intended to feature Buffy and was only rewritten for Cordelia when SMG declined the role for "personal reasons").


and proceeded to dwell on how Spike had Buffy instead of his supposed True Love of his LA life.

That I'll grant, I couldn't stand that but I blame his rivalry with Spike, it made him very juvenile in several instances in season 5 of AtS as well cinlding the entire episode of 'The Girl in Question'. As I said earlier some emotional instability might have also accounted for his whole demeaner in that encounter with Buffy.

I'm in no way saying that I agree with Cordelia being ignored; as a hardcore Cangel shipper I'd have loved to see the things your suggestioning and am quite pissed that her coma and then death recieved hardly any acknowledgement while Fred's hung over them for the rest of the series but that can't all be blamed on the characters.

I've got to say; I'd think that if Cordelia's parents had managed to get out of Sunnydale alive the first place they'd think to go should be LA to find their daughter. Regardless of how close they were to her they love her and should have been worried about her. So I don't think there is an excuse for there not being an episode where they showed up at W&H asking for her the way the Burkles did to the Hyperion in 'Fredless'. Mrs. Chase did once call the original A.I office back in season 1. In 'Sense and Sensitivity' Angel had mentioned to Cordelia that her mother had called (though she'd ignored it because she was ranting about something, I think she was accusing Angel of displaying poor manners), so they'd know to look up Angel and his name would easily pop up under Wolfram & Hart's listings since they are well known.

Dipstick
04-09-15, 05:31 PM
Alright, now you're just making assumptions. Cordelia's check in to the hospital was never on screen so how could it possibly be determined whether or not Angel had sought a second opinion of either nature?
And "dumped her body in a Wolfram and Hart hospital" is quite harsh wording. She needed medical support to have lasted as long as she did and when it is revealed that W&H owned St. Matthews? I'm assuming that's where she was, because she was clearly NOT in the W&H building while Fred seemingly was when she'd first collapsed.

W&H was put in charge of Cordelia's coma, both curing her and maintaining her.

FRED: You found Cordy? And she's—
LILAH: Still in a coma. But hey, it doesn't mean she can't look her best. (to Angel) She'll receive the finest care, medical and metaphysical. If there is a way to get her back, we'll find it.
ANGEL: Good

I would imagine W&H owned or controlled the hospital or the medical staff attending to Cordelia for them to be in charge of her care. However, it's point-blank canon that Angel dumped Cordelia with W&H and showed zero sign whatsoever of getting a second opinion. I'm not going to write fanfiction about how Angel did obtain a second opinion or searched for a cure, although I have to believe that in-house Fred and Wesley did a little cursory examination but nothing on the level of the resources that Fred devoted to re-corporealizing Spike.


So you'd expected him to ask Willow to wake Cordelia from her Coma? It's not that simple; magic is unstable, volatile, consequential. Angel is aware of this; the central portryal in the Angel series is expiereiced adults vs. the teenagers/adolecents of BTVS. His running to Willow for eveyr magical problem he had would have been unhealthilly and naively dependent.

Willow was struggling with magic issues, something the Scoobies were wary of. Approaching her would not have gone well at this point especially once again considering that Buffy had insisted that Angel leave Sunnydale. They'd have sympthay for Cordelia's condition of course but would consider such an attempt reckless, they'd know that it could have a negative affect on Cordelia, particularly Buffy who was once on Cordelia's end of the situation.
Cordelia herself would have agreed with the recklessness and considered it a waste of resources and his time. She'd never accepted him giving his focus to her over his duty (remember the bathroom scene in 'That Vision Thing', how in 'Birthday' her concern was awaring Angel of the teenager in her vision rather than solving her own peril and backing up, how she'd broken down from her vision in 'heartthrob' AFTER she'd told Angel to go take care of it and the room had been cleared).

Angel didn't know that Willow had magic issues in S6- although, Willow was still expected to solve impossible problems with magic through S7. AI approached Willow to restore Angel's soul. Angel took it as a great personal offense that Giles didn't produce Willow to bring back Fred, after the AI members discussed how Willow successfully brought back Buffy from the dead.

Willow didn't even have to implement cures for Cordelia. Willow could have been brought to use her supernatural powers to diagnose Cordelia and perhaps offer potential cures for Angel to approve (or preferably, Fred and Wesley as decent people and straight-up experts but I get that's not how it goes in Angel-world). Angel doesn't know this- but Willow successfully diagnosed a coma patient in Buffy in Weight of the World. Cordelia probably wouldn't have benefited from internal-talk therapy as Buffy did, because Cordelia's coma did not have a psychological root but who knows. We don't know the actual root of Cordelia's coma.

However, regardless, Angel did not have to know about the Weight of the World. Willow was just in-town a few weeks ago to restore Angel's soul, and fight for Angel's soul against The Beast's Master who they later understood to be uber-powerful Jasmine. They all heard that Willow brought back Buffy from the dead, and to everyone who isn't suicidal, it appeared like enough of a success that Angel wanted Willow to do with the same with Fred. Angel knew more than enough to know that Willow has tremendous power over life and souls and the like. Even if he didn't want to commit to an out-and-out restoration before looking at the risk factors, Angel could have *asked* Willow.

Moreover, I don't get how Angel informing Buffy of Cordelia's coma and asking if Buffy had any ideas or could send Willow is a waste of Angel's time and resources. Angel really could have taken five minutes out of his stupid tantrum about Spuffy to...*pretend* to be a decent human being and inform Cordelia's childhood associates that Cordelia was in a coma. He could have taken another five to inform Willow or ask Buffy if she had any ideas or saw a similar mystical coma before. Yeah, Willow may have had to take a few hours (in the scenario that I'm discussing) to drive to LA as the person being called on for a favor....but I bet Willow would have happily done it (perhaps after the Chosen fight). Willow shlepped to LA to restore Angel's soul, and Cordelia was far more important and close to Willow's life, even if their relationship was oftentimes hostile.

Angel's precious times and resources, at this point of the series, means nothing to me. He was running Evil Inc., spending quite a bit of his time pacifying W&H evil clients, running stupid summits to stop human-killing tribes from warring instead....killing some damn demons, admiring his motor pool, bickering with Spike over who's the special-est, etc. He could more than afford to spend a few minutes trying to network in Buffy's tremendous tribe of human capital to see if there's some way that he could save his supposed great love.

Angel is hardly more special or important any of the poor saps who go drive their loved ones or spend a ton of money trying to get a second, third, or fourth medical opinion when their loved one is very sick.


How can you be so sure that Willow was a match for Jasmine? Jasmine was the ultimate deceiver, she might have even deceived the PTB themselves as that could be one explaination she'd need Cordelia in the higher plain to have access to her(the other being that it wasn't a real higher plain).

Jasmine controlled the Beast- she admitted to it. The Beast's Master i.e. Cordelia fought with Willow over Angel's soul. It was kind of a stalemate- and Willow won because Conner distracted Cordelia by walking into the room.


I believe the same assessment could be made of Angel after Cordelia had fallen into a Coma and then after she died. First of all that whole 'Chosen' thing where he'd thrown himself at Buffy and then got juvinille about Spuffy, I believed that to be an act of emotional instability, he'd point blank told Gunn in 'The Cautonary Tale of Numero Cinco' that he'd felt disconnected, he'd stopped beliving in the shanshu and in himself.
Post-'You're Welcome' it's quite clear that he was projecting a lot of his pain from losing Cordelia onto the Fred/Illyria situation, though not to claim that he didn't care about Fred. He did quite deeply but it was held a heavy de ja vu for him considering the circumstances.

"I can't lose her. I lost Cordy."
- 'A Hole in the World'

"I lost Cordelia because some thing violated her, crawled in and used her up, no way in hell I'm letting that happen again!"

- 'A Hole in the World'

Wesley was mentally disturbed after Fred's death to the point that he was pretty socially non-functional, although it was written pretty sloppily. In the immediate aftermath of Fred's death, he went on a stabby killing rampage. He spent weeks, unable to shower, unable to eat, totally drunk on whiskey non-stop, jittering in his office obsessing over every detail on Illyria. It's a little bit of a hard call. There were some points where Wesley did seem cogent and stable enough to be held responsible for not contacting the Burkles. However, at a number of points, Wesley seemed pretty incapable of doing anything other than obsessing over Illyria and not able to communicate Fred's death in a respectful, calm way to her parents.

Meanwhile, Angel was totally functional. If he's well enough to admire his motor pool or bicker with Buffy over Spuffy or flatter demons to attend his Halloween party, he was capable of participating in the world socially to inform Cordelia's parents and the Scoobies of her coma. Yes, Angel was especially pouty in early S5. You could make an argument that Angel was never "mentally right", what with his demon and soul co-existing, his inability to accept the past and move on healthily, his hell-dimension torture. However, he was socially functional in S5.


Cordelia was way more to Angel than simply "vision girl". She was his anchor, she kept him disciplined, confident, and brought out his humanity. She was his sunlight, no one ever made him smile like she did. He might not have outwardly realized that but he felt it. Even in BTVS, the episodes 'Halloween' and 'Some Assembly Required', how brief the encounters were aside, it clearly lit him up and made him feel carefree just to be around her.


No, I agree that Cordelia's main point wasn't to be Vision Girl. It's what you said- Cordelia aided Angel's confidence, cheered him up, flattered him non-stop, constantly made him feel that he not only belonged in the human world, but that he was the total CHAMPION of the human world. However, ultimately, Cordelia's role with Angel was always about her being a supplicant to him instead of Angel maintaining unconditional love for her even if she wasn't his Number One Fan or his First Lady of AI.


As for how he viewed her "basic needs"; what do you call his bringing her alone enough food to feed to entire team because he forgot what she liked and took into consideration that she didn't like being asked if she needed anything after she'd been traumatized in 'Dead End' or bringing her piles of clothes which reflected that he knew her style and what she valued in a friend/parter to win her back from his dark crisis in 'Disharmony'?


This incidents don't get to what I'm saying. When Cordelia was Angel's supplicant, kyrumption co-partner and Angel was invested in maintaining that image, he could get her little presents like all of the sandwiches or clothes. However, I'm referring to when Cordelia was in a coma or invaded by Jasmine and COULDN'T serve that role. Or when Angel didn't care about having a human supplicant Girl Friday. When that happened, Cordelia was invariably left in the cold.


Remember when he said that the reason he'd fired them all was that he'd felt a darkness inside of him that he was afraid for them to be around? He probably felt that if he'd tried to explain it to them at the time they'd just want to get closer to the danger in attempt to support him, especially Cordelia. No this doesn't justify his actions but it wasn't as black and white as a blunt betrayal.

I don't recall Angel ever saying that he fired the team to protect them from his own darkness. Angel wanted to pursue his darkness to pursue his vengeance crusade against Darla/Dru and W&H. His team said that they planned on standing in the way of Angel's darkness and pressuring him to make decent decisions- like "Don't lock up a bunch of humans in a cellar with hungry vampires." Angel said he didn't want their influence or input, and fired them. Then, he minimized their work as the "good fight" as opposed to his "war". Then, he bitched and moaned about how his friends...like bother him, by trying to cheer him up out of his depression. "Why don't you wear a nice plaid?" Through those statement about his team, Angel never said that he fired his team to protect them from him and he was well aware that they were still out there fighting evil without any superpowered help.


Um, she was dead weight and they were constantly changing hideouts to keep out of Jasmine's eye. There was a lot happening during that time that woud weight down on someone'd mind over a lifeless body but I'm sure it stung his heart greatly. Angel has never been one to be openly emotional except around Cordelia.

Two people experienced regret and horror that they had to leave Cordelia's helpless body in the hands of the Big Bad who eats people. It was Fred and Wesley. Not Angel. AtS endlessly delves into Angel's pain and issues and whatever the hell is on his mind. I feel no compulsion to credit Angel with a flattering thought, that he not only didn't express, but barked at Fred and Wesley for expressing. IMO, Angel was still angry at Cordelia, even though they all had proof that the last few month's events weren't her fault.

Angel has a hypocritical inclination to demand total forgiveness and zero consequences when his soulless self does evil things or when he makes bad judgment calls which have terrible consequences. However, when others make terrible judgment calls that truly harms Angel or others end up doing something bad, because they were manipulated or soulless or controlled by an evil power, Angel is very unforgiving. I think this plays a huge role into why Angel actively searched for Cordelia at the start of S4, but showed no interest in bringing her out of her coma.


In all fairness it's a huge deal for someone to screw their best friend's child. It's wrong in that it's illegal in the state of california, it's called satutory rape and Angel had trusted Cordelia with Connor more than anyone, had considered her his mother (not to mention he was closer to her than he'd ever been with anyone, he'd shared his desinty with her, his soul) but that aside you are forgetting that he hadn't yet figured out that that wasn't actually Cordelia.
Am I denying that he was irrational? Hell no! It was beyond entirely irrational that he didn't smell a mystical rat in this, that it didn't occur to him that the Cordelia he knew and fell in love with wasn't even a cougar let alone would never touch his son but that is irrelevant to this point. He wasn't judging the situation correctly but even it had been exactly what it had appeared to be he was pretty entitled to feel enraged and pained.

Yes, it was problematic that Angel didn't "smell a mystical rat" and that's entirely relevant to the point. Since Cordelia just returned from a mysterious higher plane and she'd been acting bizarre for months, it was incumbent on Angel and the gang to wonder if she was allright. It's a tremendous moral and relational failure on all of their parts that they didn't even ask "What's wrong with Cordelia?"

But even more than that, after the Rain of Fire, when LA was undergoing its biggest, most cataclysmic apocalypse in the world:


CORDELIA
I'm just glad that everyone's safe and together again.

ANGEL
(looks her in the eyes) Me too. (she smiles sweetly, but he does not, he leans forward) Now, take your new boyfriend, and get the hell out of here. (walks out of the office)

There's no excuse for that. I don't care how hurt and jealous Angel was. You don't throw out your son and supposed love of your life into a city in the middle of an apocalypse, away from the team. Conner's and Cordelia's lives should come way ahead of Angel's hurt feelings. Yes, in the next ep, Cordelia came over and sucked up to Angel which smoothed things over. However, Cordelia shouldn't have to suck up for sanctuary within the Hyperion and within the team for a safe spot during the apocalypse.

Moreover, Angel was *under*-concerned with the statutory rape aspect. Right in that scene, Angel was just so pissy with his own jealousies that he threw Cordelia out to continue sleeping with Conner. He didn't act like a concerned dad who made an effort to separate the two. He just wanted to banish them both. However, throughout the Conner/Cordelia stuff, Angel's first concern was always Angel. All of his expressed concern about the age difference and the "mother figure" difference was expressed primarily through jeering at them, especially Conner. However while Angel was furious, hurt, contemptuous, jealous over Conner/Cordelia, his emotions were basically never expressed as *protective* of Conner against Cordelia, except for a little bit at the end in Inside Out when Cordelia was outed as evil.


The thing to remember here is the behind the scenes reason that there was no storyline acknowledging Cordelia's condition; Joss had thrown a conniption over Charisma getting pregnant, no longer wanted her on the show and seemingly threw the character away until he needed her to rescue 'You're Welcome' (in case you weren't aware, it was initially intended to feature Buffy, it was rewritten for Cordelia when SMG declined to appear for "personal reasons").

I hear that. However, I think the absence of Cordelia worked well with the storyline, as I see it. Angel's lack of concern for Cordelia meshes with his S5 darkness. Angel was pretty much the out-and-out villain in S5- but he didn't realize it. It works with Angels' general pattern. Cordelia was a headache for Angel in S4, even if he intellectually understood that it wasn't her fault. Conner was a headache for Angel in S4, even if a part of Angel understands that Conner was warped for reasons beyond his control into becoming what he was in S4. However, that didn't stop Angel from being furious with both of them and inclined to just discard them as headaches that he'd like to throw away.

Then, Spike comes in with the righteous halo and recent-enviable past that comes with being Buffy's last boyfriend. Of course, Angel was super-jealous. Angel's son and First Lady of AI kyrumption love interest were supposed to the uber-light characters in Angel's Hero of His Own Story that would raise Angel up. Instead, they dragged him down. Angel turned his attention to Buffy, dreaming of his jealousies with her, fighting with Spike over Buffy, devoting W&H goons to watch over her (even though she was a general-slayer with an army of devoted and powerful friends) while Angel didn't send anyone to watch or protect Conner after Angel mindwiped Conner of all knowledge and perspective that enemies have been gunning after Conner since he was born.

At some point, Angel tries to kill or throw away all of the people-dolls in his little playhouse of kyrumption. He plays a role in how every human, dumb enough, to stick around to be his friend in LA for more than a few weeks died.

Cordelia
04-09-15, 10:02 PM
Dipstick:

I'd meant to respond to your comment about their never asking Fred if she had family after they got her out of Pylea, but had gotten cought up in some of your other comments that kind of got under my skin and forgot. There is no evidence that they didn't ask but she wasn't the most together up there and recall in 'Fredless' she couldn't stand the thought of seeing her parents because it made the trauama of Pylea more real so she could have lied and said she didn't have family. No this was never specifically mentioned but not everything has to be and they did seem pretty surprised when it became clear to them who the Burkles were which could support this theory.
It seems to me that you lack a sense of reading between the lines which one sometimes must do if not to make sense of something than at least to make it interesting.
I'm not claiming canon on some my suggestions, just pointing out a possibility and I'm sorry but while I concede to forgetting about that conversation with Lilah regarding Cordelia's coma, I maintain that Angel not getting a second opinion is headcanon as I blame Joss for her not being acknowledged.


Angel didn't know that Willow had magic issues in S6- although, Willow was still expected to solve impossible problems with magic through S7. AI approached Willow to restore Angel's soul. Angel took it as a great personal offense that Giles didn't produce Willow to bring back Fred, after the AI members discussed how Willow successfully brought back Buffy from the dead.

Willow didn't even have to implement cures for Cordelia. Willow could have been brought to use her supernatural powers to diagnose Cordelia and perhaps offer potential cures for Angel to approve (or preferably, Fred and Wesley as decent people and straight-up experts but I get that's not how it goes in Angel-world). Angel doesn't know this- but Willow successfully diagnosed a coma patient in Buffy in Weight of the World. Cordelia probably wouldn't have benefited from internal-talk therapy as Buffy did, because Cordelia's coma did not have a psychological root but who knows. We don't know the actual root of Cordelia's coma.

However, regardless, Angel did not have to know about the Weight of the World. Willow was just in-town a few weeks ago to restore Angel's soul, and fight for Angel's soul against The Beast's Master who they later understood to be uber-powerful Jasmine. They all heard that Willow brought back Buffy from the dead, and to everyone who isn't suicidal, it appeared like enough of a success that Angel wanted Willow to do with the same with Fred. Angel knew more than enough to know that Willow has tremendous power over life and souls and the like. Even if he didn't want to commit to an out-and-out restoration before looking at the risk factors, Angel could have *asked* Willow.

What Angel knew about Willow has absolutely no relevance to what I was making a point of here. I'd invisioned the Scoobies interfering had Angel attempted to ask her to revive Cordelia. I see your suggestion of his simply asking for a diagnosis plausible but remember Buffy didn't trust Angel when she'd realized he was at W&H, no one did except Faith hence Giles refusing to put him in touch with Willow about resurrecting Fred. BTW, guess what was behind his irrational pain and anger over Fred's death? His losing Cordelia, his being unable to save her. This suggests that maybe he did try a thing or two even without Willow.
I still maintain that Cordelia was ignored in the storyline as a result of Joss disregarding her.

No, A.I did not reach out to Willow to restore Angel's soul, Fred did, one of it's members who hadn't even known her rather than Wesley who'd not had the rationality to have Willow supervise the extracting of his soul in the first place, which Willow herself had pointed out would have been wiser than calling her as a last resort AFTER Angelus had escaped confinment.

"Next time you want to summon Angelus, call me first."


IMO, Angel was still angry at Cordelia, even though they all had proof that the last few month's events weren't her fault

Um, he slit Connor's throat in the whole suicide bomber incident before the rewrite took effect then recollected:
"He was going to kill you...and himself" he'd taken quite a handful of seconds to add in "and himself". So wouldn't you say that sounds more like it was Connor he was still mad at while the fact that he didn't have the plug pulled on Cordelia for nine months communicates that he was desperate to get her back?
Then the way he'd clutched her to him at the hospital in 'You're Welcome' like he felt the world clicking back into place and didn't want to let her go at the end (just look at his pained eyes in that whole scene). Definetly a lot of built up anger there.


While I am enjoying this debate it's getting to be a little heated for me. Sure you can call me a wuss but I'm not huge on debate. It often causes me to lose my head and my logic goes down the toliet.

Dipstick
11-09-15, 03:26 PM
I'm a little late on responding. Busy week and weekend.


I'd meant to respond to your comment about their never asking Fred if she had family after they got her out of Pylea, but had gotten cought up in some of your other comments that kind of got under my skin and forgot. There is no evidence that they didn't ask but she wasn't the most together up there and recall in 'Fredless' she couldn't stand the thought of seeing her parents because it made the trauama of Pylea more real so she could have lied and said she didn't have family. No this was never specifically mentioned but not everything has to be and they did seem pretty surprised when it became clear to them who the Burkles were which could support this theory.

I tend to think that someone in the group would have said something like, "Why would Fred lie when we asked her if she had a family?", some kind of dismay that Fred lied to them (and then, mysteriously disappeared from her parents). However, no one brings up anything of the sort. Instead, Angel/Cordy/Wes/Gunn just seemed shocked that Fred actually had parents who cared about her whereabouts and then, suspicious looking "parents."


It seems to me that you lack a sense of reading between the lines which one sometimes must do if not to make sense of something than at least to make it interesting.
I'm not claiming canon on some my suggestions, just pointing out a possibility and I'm sorry but while I concede to forgetting about that conversation with Lilah regarding Cordelia's coma, I maintain that Angel not getting a second opinion is headcanon as I blame Joss for her not being acknowledged.

I'm all for head-canon. I love it so much and I have a lot of Buffyverse head-canon. Still, I'm not creating head-canon by stating Angel put Cordelia under W&H care and didn't get a second opinion. That's just what happened on the screen. You're writing head-canon by assuming that Angel went to a doctor? witch? dark mystic? light mystic? chiropractor? to get a second opinion for Cordelia when the cameras weren't on him. That's fine- but I'm just going directly with what's on screen and you're trying to explain away what you saw on the screen.

I also don't lack of sense of reading between the lines. I actually really run with how I observed Angel dumping Cordelia in a W&H hospital, not getting a second opinion, not informing her childhood peers of her death, even though one of them is powerful witch with a proven track record for mystic health care. I think it's *fascinating*- one of the most interesting things about Angel. Just because it's not flattering to Angel doesn't mean that the crappy way that he treats the people he claims to love isn't interesting and consistent.


What Angel knew about Willow has absolutely no relevance to what I was making a point of here. I'd invisioned the Scoobies interfering had Angel attempted to ask her to revive Cordelia. I see your suggestion of his simply asking for a diagnosis plausible but remember Buffy didn't trust Angel when she'd realized he was at W&H, no one did except Faith hence Giles refusing to put him in touch with Willow about resurrecting Fred. BTW, guess what was behind his irrational pain and anger over Fred's death? His losing Cordelia, his being unable to save her. This suggests that maybe he did try a thing or two even without Willow.

First, we don't know why Giles didn't put Angel in touch with Willow. It could have been a mistrust of Angel at W&H. It could have also been that Willow was on another plane of existence and out of touch. (I think Willow was really out of touch- but Giles was also enjoying messing with Angel since Giles did really believe that Angel defected and made terrible choices about how he conducted his front of the war.) I also see Angel asking for Willow to save Fred as more proof that Angel didn't do anything for Cordelia, other than leave her with W&H employees. Once the dust cleared from S4 and they had Cordelia's coma body, Angel was actually *in* Sunnydale talking to Buffy. Angel made a deliberate choice to not tell Buffy that her childhood peer who she rescued many times was in a coma and he made a choice to not network with Buffy since Buffy has powerful witch Willow on her team. I think it's some disgusting combo of the following reasons- Angel was distracted by Spuffy, Angel was still angry at Cordelia and pretty used to not having her around to the point that he felt no inclination to even do a little to help Cordelia like just ask for a favor from a ex-girlfriend/ex-colleague.

But still, we don't know how the Scoobies would have reacted to Angel asking for help for Cordelia because he never asked them. IMO, the Scoobies would have been inclined to help. They have a connection to Cordelia and Cordelia wasn't the one who made the choice to run Evil Inc. I think they'd be inclined to rescue helpless, coma Cordelia from rotting in a W&H hospital because she shouldn't suffer from Angel's defection. Which is how I feel.


No, A.I did not reach out to Willow to restore Angel's soul, Fred did, one of it's members who hadn't even known her rather than Wesley who'd not had the rationality to have Willow supervise the extracting of his soul in the first place, which Willow herself had pointed out would have been wiser than calling her as a last resort AFTER Angelus had escaped confinment.
"Next time you want to summon Angelus, call me first."


Well, Wesley thought that Wo Pang was capable of both extracting and ensouling. And I think Wo Pang was capable of both things. I don't know how Willow could have done better than Wo Pang at the tasks of extracting Angel's soul and locking it away in the safe. AI handled that fine. Although perhaps, Wesley should have had someone magically enchant the safe and Willow could have enchanted the safe with some very secure spells impervious to brute force (ala the force field in Weight of the World) that could have posed a challenge to Evil!Cordelia. Or Willow could have tricked out the safe with alarms- ala Intervention or Blood Ties. Willow's handier than a Swiss army knife- any team that doesn't have her comes up short compared to the one that does have her. (Although, I've always liked the head-canon that Wesley *does* have a lot of magical talent- but he never really worked on it as much as he could have until S5, the year before his death.)

But yeah, I don't exactly think Willow was needed for the extraction and interrogation process. However, absolutely, once Angel escaped, Willow should have been the first phone call, especially after Wo Pang washed out. Willow could ensoul Angel remotely- with her in a hospital bed and Angel at the Mansion. Wesley wasted a lot of energy in his hunt with Faith and messed up that addict girl's arm when Willow could have resolved this whole thing quickly.

I do credit AI with Fred calling Willow since Fred is *in* AI and all. It's a Balkanized agency- but the agency does get credit or demerits for the individual acts of its true members.

Still though, Willow can only be spread so thin. I think AI should have made more use of her- but IMO, she should have contacted to resolve major magical emergencies that AI does not have the power to fix like ensouling Angelus after he escaped or getting a second diagnostic opinion on Cordelia's coma. It's a little much to ask them to call Willow to enchant their safe for Angel's soul. Although, they should have enchanted it instead of just leaving it with a standard lock. Lorne/The Furies could have handled that. AI just wasn't thinking ahead that way.

Cassiopeia
19-09-15, 04:47 AM
sorry been away. work busy and then i got the cold all of last week (and still feeling it this week). fwiw, i'm nearing the end of s6 btvs and s3 ats with my sister, so much fun to rewatch the series knowing what's coming up next :):

ok so 'angel' wasn't really planned to end at the end of s5, that's exactly what it felt like. i wish the show had ended on the writers' terms, always feels like a story isn't completed when the network ends a show prematurely. and dang it! wes' would have lived! *pouts*

sometime i'm going to have to hunt down these comics (hoping to find them in hardback volumes rather than single issues). i'm curious enough to want to read them, even though i don't mind y'all telling me about what happens in them either.

i think the writers really missed an opportunity in having buffy find out about angel/cordy, i think that would have been so interesting to watch (especially considering we got to see angel react to finding out buffy and spike were a thing)

the vid you shared, the fake scene of buffy stumbling upon the angel/cordy kiss, loved it! wish smthg similar would have actually happened. and yes, i think that would have been her initial reaction to them too, would love to see how her reaction would have progressed beyond initial response.

with 'you're welcome' i had a feeling right from the moment cordy got up and walked out of the hospital that she was perhaps dead, and this was her spirit/ghost/essence hanging around to help one last time (and of course i didn't think about her gift/visions being passed to angel immediately after that kiss because i was just not thinking about that when that scene played out, i was just ahhh! i just had a feeling that was cordy's last scene ever, and just enjoyed the angel/cordiness of it all), 'you're welcome' is one of my favorite episodes of the series.

ok now remind me, in angel s5, spike was there first as a ghost, right? then he became corporeal, right? now... because he had died... is it possible that perhaps his corporeal self came back soulless, but spike still believed that he had his soul? i only ask because my thought is what if spike had no soul, but still was who he was without it. in watching btvs/ats all over again i'm realizing before spike fights for his soul he already behaves as if he has it. does that make sense?

unless of course him having a soul is smthg he can "smell" or "taste" or "feel", therefore he'd know for certain if he had it or not.

but still i just think that soulless spike isn't all that different (at least with the chip in his head, perhaps even if it weren't there) from a souled spike.

ok, @stoney thank you for the information on the ats/btvs seasons, i'll be hunting them down on amazon or tfaw for sure when i can afford them (or maybe put them on my birthday/xmas list).

and also fwiw, in my 2nd viewing of btvs/ats, i think i'm loving spike even more than i loved him the first time around. i freakin' adore that character. the next ep up to watch is 'seeing red', can't wait to see my sister's reaction to that one!

i also think that the thought to get his soul began for spike in the episode (title slips my mind) where buffy beats the crap out of him outside the police station. he takes the beating, but buffy saying to him that there's no good in him, i really think that hit him hard, and made him realize that if he ever wants a real shot at being with her that he can't be this 'evil thing' that she perceives him to be (or so she says, i mean, she knows he's an 'evil thing', but i think deep down she knows that's not true because he really isn't that bad)

spike and wes are among my favorite characters too. i'm back at those angel episodes where wes took connor, holtz took connor to the hell dimension, and angel tried to pillow/suffocate wes. imo, this is the most interesting time for wes's character, free falling towards darkness - not like 'evil' darkness, but personal/emotional darkness. i love it.

ok so the shanshu thing in the comics... did angel get the shanshu? i read both of y'alls posts about it, and i'm a bit confused. i get this out of it:

- angel got shanshu (so he's human now?)
- spike didn't get 'gifted' the shanshu from angel

feel free to spoil me rotten, i'm dying to know :):

another question about angel: angel with a soul? is that the soul of liam? or just some random soul that the gypsies cursed him with? i love watching angel blossom into a less-brooding-ish character in ats, him getting out of sunnydale and forming his own "family" with angel investigations, and i'm always wondering is the soul in him that of liam? is this the kind of man liam would have been like in his time if darla hadn't sired him? i like to think that it is liam's soul, but considering he was cursed with a soul makes me also think that maybe it isn't.

like spike fought for *his* soul, i believe it's stated like that in the series (correct me if i'm wrong), but with angel it seems (and correct me if i'm wrong again) that anytime they talk about him having a soul they don't say it's *his* soul. again, am i making sense?

with regard to the discussion about buffy and/or angel betraying the other in terms of their relationships AFTER angel left sunnydale. i think the reaction angel has to riley and spike are normal. it's like finding out that the "love of your life" in high school (in which there was an amicable ending of the relationship - no anger or hard feelings) is seeing someone else/has married. there's a slight pang of jealousy because things didn't end in some dramatic fight of hatred and disgust, there was always the thought that 'damn, if things had been a bit different back then would we have stayed together' (i'm basing this off of personal experience, i dated an international student in high school, and our ending was when he had to move back to germany, we stayed in good contact for a few years after, and even a few years back reconnected on facebook, but 'seeing' him again online had me all sorts of "what if things had been different", you know? because we didn't end badly).

and i do think it is a valid point that buffy didn't end the relationship she had with angel, angel ended it (even despite the love he had for her, he wanted more for her life, and didn't want to 'damn her' to the dark - and because of that he was able to walk away with the hope that she'd find happiness/light) <--- which could also explain why he got all 'upset' when he found out about her and spike, finding out she didn't find the light, but rather was in a sorta/kinda relationship with another vampire. perhaps his reaction to buffy/spike in btvs series finale had more to do with his hopes for her being dashed, he loved her so much and wanted so much more for her than what a relationship with a vampire would (not) provide.

and it kills me that buffy never remembered the events of IWRY, but at the same time, after some time (of viewing the episodes), it became less important for me to have buffy remember that because the writers had done such a great job and properly allowing the characters to move on.

Stoney
19-09-15, 09:29 AM
ok now remind me, in angel s5, spike was there first as a ghost, right? then he became corporeal, right? now... because he had died... is it possible that perhaps his corporeal self came back soulless, but spike still believed that he had his soul? i only ask because my thought is what if spike had no soul, but still was who he was without it. in watching btvs/ats all over again i'm realizing before spike fights for his soul he already behaves as if he has it. does that make sense?

unless of course him having a soul is smthg he can "smell" or "taste" or "feel", therefore he'd know for certain if he had it or not.

but still i just think that soulless spike isn't all that different (at least with the chip in his head, perhaps even if it weren't there) from a souled spike.

I strongly disagree, and I'll explain why. :)

Spike was a ghost yes, when he was recorporealised there was no implication that he didn't keep his soul and Spike was definitely different with his soul. It pulls down his story for that not to be the case and it discounts the realisation that spurred him to seek it. Sure Spike was heading towards the light more from the opportunity that the chip gave him, combined with his personality and the focus on the things that motivated him, particularly wanting to be loved, but there were limitations.

Spike attacked Buffy in Seeing Red because he wanted to force that closeness with her again, to try and reestablish a time when he felt closer to her and more accepted in her life. But he had said that he wouldn't hurt her and that, obviously, did. His confusion in the crypt when talking to Clem afterwards is because he feels bad about it but also questions that feeling that isn't his nature, he is also wondering why he didn't do it. He recognises that he can't walk the line he has been trying to. He has been guided by his ideas of what a person who loves someone would do but it is still based on a selfishness of what he wants in a relationship and what he wants to be. In S10 when talking to Buffy and her acknowledging that he did good unsouled and loved her Spike calls it a selfish bastardisation of love. He couldn't even control the demon side of himself to stick within his own intended boundaries reliably. In seeking his soul Spike is choosing whether to be more monster or man. He seeks his soul not only to be the lover that Buffy deserves who can be relied upon, but to be "a kind of man". He is wanting to remove that inner discord that is so confusing, he was trying to be something that he couldn't attain soulless.

Once souled, and this is the difference that soulless Spike could never achieve, he cares not only about having hurt Buffy but he cares about all the other people he attacked, killed, raped too. In Never Leave Me he is choked up talking to Buffy about the person he was and what he used to do to girl's Dawn's age. Soulless Spike didn't care about any of that, even at his best, because soulless beings are inherently selfish and don't have the moral boundaries that are there for souled beings. Not that all souled beings use them of course, but the complex capacity is there, for soulless beings it just isn't there in breadth and depth and so Spike's own self defined boundaries could fall when soulless and didn't have any blanket empathy guiding them anyway. Soulless Spike would have left the hellmouth with Buffy in Chosen because he wouldn't sacrifice his existence for all the nameless people of the world that don't matter to him, souled he stayed and burned.

AtS 5 can be quite confusing on Spike's characterisation because they wanted the snark and banter with Angel but if you consider some of what I was saying on the Spike being human thread about Spike learning in Destiny to hide his emotions and desires from Angel, then you can see that there is a lot of front and bravado on display a lot of the time. It is the only way to make sense of his attitude about the coat in TGIQ against how he felt about it in S7. If we think of Spike fearing losing that connection to being useful/able to fight souled by losing the presentation of his image, he isn't going to share that insecurity with Angel so he opts for a reaction Angel would believe of him, that he is sulking about the loss of his trophy. But generally, AtS 5 isn't a great show of souled Spike as he is so affected by being around Angel. But, even with that, he is still sacrificing himself for others and he is wanting to learn to find a heroic path rather than focussing on his own wants.

Of course having a soul is something that he can feel, he is different with it than without it. :biggrin1:


and also fwiw, in my 2nd viewing of btvs/ats, i think i'm loving spike even more than i loved him the first time around. i freakin' adore that character. the next ep up to watch is 'seeing red', can't wait to see my sister's reaction to that one!

Consider how much more withdrawn/calmer Spike is in S7. The whole symbolic significance of his coat is that he ran out without it in SR and then, when he returns souled, he can't bear to wear it. As he says to Buffy, he isn't relishing in the fight the same now. He uses the coat to reconnect himself to be able to fight and put on the image that lets him fight like that again.


i also think that the thought to get his soul began for spike in the episode (title slips my mind) where buffy beats the crap out of him outside the police station. he takes the beating, but buffy saying to him that there's no good in him, i really think that hit him hard, and made him realize that if he ever wants a real shot at being with her that he can't be this 'evil thing' that she perceives him to be (or so she says, i mean, she knows he's an 'evil thing', but i think deep down she knows that's not true because he really isn't that bad)

It is Dead Things :). I think Spike knows how he is viewed and that he is labelled as this thing but I think it takes the impact of the confusion he feels after the attack in SR for him to consider how he can change himself to become something else. I don't think up until that point he actually faced that he couldn't just try his best and be what he wanted to be and win Buffy's love. Spike was capable of doing good unsouled if it fit something that motivated him and was important to him, but not things outside of that. Taking the torture from Glory was an impressive act but it fitted into protecting people he cared about and fitting his image of standing by the woman he loved, the same for staying and looking after Dawn when Buffy died. But there really are boundaries and I think if you consider what Spike is saying in Never Leave Me in S7, as I say above, there were all the other women he raped in the past and didn't care less about unsouled, well, the difference is stark. It is the same for Angel, consider the scene in AtS 5 Destiny when they are in the carriage discussing the wedding party they just slaughtered and Spike is talking about Dru romantically as his destiny but it is whilst the brutalised bride is in the carriage with them and they joke about whether Angel has had his fill of her. When Spike arrives back to find Angel/Dru he thought he was walking in on Angel raping the bride again. Soulless these two vamps were conscience free murderers and rapists. Souled, neither would consider acting like that and taking some of those choices they used to do not only carefree but for 'fun'. :err:


spike and wes are among my favorite characters too. i'm back at those angel episodes where wes took connor, holtz took connor to the hell dimension, and angel tried to pillow/suffocate wes. imo, this is the most interesting time for wes's character, free falling towards darkness - not like 'evil' darkness, but personal/emotional darkness. i love it.

I agree that time for Wes is incredible.


ok so the shanshu thing in the comics... did angel get the shanshu? i read both of y'alls posts about it, and i'm a bit confused. i get this out of it:

- angel got shanshu (so he's human now?)
- spike didn't get 'gifted' the shanshu from angel

feel free to spoil me rotten, i'm dying to know :):

If you want to spoil yourself for After the Fall you might just want to read the Wiki summaries. Angel isn't human now, he was human briefly in After the Fall but in the end time was reversed to before Los Angeles went to Hell, so he was returned to being a vamp again. As I remember it, it was the senior partners that had made him human and Wes ghost said the Shanshu was still open. The idea Spike was gifted the shanshu just hasn't happened.


another question about angel: angel with a soul? is that the soul of liam? or just some random soul that the gypsies cursed him with? i love watching angel blossom into a less-brooding-ish character in ats, him getting out of sunnydale and forming his own "family" with angel investigations, and i'm always wondering is the soul in him that of liam? is this the kind of man liam would have been like in his time if darla hadn't sired him? i like to think that it is liam's soul, but considering he was cursed with a soul makes me also think that maybe it isn't.

The vamps souls are their human souls, the soul restoration spell I believe talks about returning what is lost and so it does work to it being specific to the person rather than general. And that is repeatedly how it is referenced, Jenny's uncle Enyos talks about it as the soul they restored plaguing Angel, so going by the meaning of restoring to be returning something I think they do mean Liam's soul. In the comics in S10 Buffy and Spike are fighting a soul eating monster and Spike tries to insist that Buffy kill him if he loses his soul as he doesn't want to go back to being what he was soulless. She vehemently refuses saying they would fix it and he says that there is no going back from your soul being consumed, so I definitely think the verse works on the basis that it is the original soul that is returned to them.