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KingofCretins
14-12-07, 01:06 AM
I started the speculation/wish-list thread not knowing if we'd get a preview before the release.

Turned out... we did :)

And here it is --

"Anywhere But Here" preview (http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=92159514&blogID=337770491)

So far, it's... very cool. Looks like it really might just be the character piece we've been hoping for. I can already hear the complaints about the guest pencils starting up... Buffy has a fantasy about Daniel Craig and is shown in a bikini! And then the blah blah sexist fanboy pandering swimsuit cakes.

But, also, already? Nice moments in both the conversations that the issue will focus on :)

sueworld
14-12-07, 01:50 AM
. I can already hear the complaints about the guest pencils starting up.

Oh that explains a lot. I thought the artwork looked a lot better this time around.

Dawn actually looks like she's meant to be for a start. *g*

KingofCretins
14-12-07, 02:00 AM
Personally, I was waiting for the bevy of complaints about the opening image with Buffy in bikini (check out the book, btw: *snerk*), and then a whole lot of nothing about Fantasy Daniel Craig's 50 abs :)

A few thing I've already liked, little touches. Buffy, even in bikini at the beach, is still wearing her cross. I'm still not convinced it's *the* cross that Angel gave her -- unless that cross did the same magic morphing thing that Oz's van did, she has worn more than one, and this one looks too small.

Also noticed they made a point of Willow acknowledging that Daniel Craig works -- "gay now" attenuation signs? The preview pages are all about digging obsessively for layers of meaning, and Joss has heard four years of fan argument that Willow is presumptively bisexual.

I won't like, Cliff Richards has made all four of them pretty sexy so far -- Buffy with the bikini, Willow with the calm ease and gracefulness of the flying, Dawn with... her posture? I don't know, she's cute... and Xander workin' the stubble. And, there's nothing wrong with it at all.

Nice to see that they *are* taking Dawn's situation seriously, and came up with the thoughtful surprise of letting her have some more clothes. As long as she has a coat or something, I won't worry about her in the Scottish winter. I still wanna know how they get her protein, though -- cement mixers full of powdered eggs?

And, so far, no unpleasant developments on the 'shipping front :)

sueworld
14-12-07, 02:05 AM
And, so far, no unpleasant developments on the 'shipping front


Shipping? I thought thats the last thing thast going on there. Nobody appears to be shacking up with anyone so far.

For me the verdict will be out until I read the whole issue I'm afraid.

KingofCretins
14-12-07, 02:10 AM
Exactly... no news is good news on the 'shipping so far. As I said on the speculation thread, I am sorta thinking if there is any Scoobycest in the works for Season 8, particularly a Buffy/Xander 'ship (which will take the most careful set up), we're going to start getting some clear indication, some subtext in dialogue or something, starting in this issue.

sueworld
14-12-07, 02:13 AM
Personally I'll be very, very surprised if any ship gets a look in in this series. Joss really doesn't seem to be interested in such things. His eyes are on the bigger picture.

KingofCretins
14-12-07, 02:17 AM
Since it's not a detail, I won't spoiler it, but I really disagree with the idea that Joss is indifferent-to-dubious about 'shipping. In seven televised seasons, there wasn't one that wasn't 'shipping intensive for at least two couples, and there was almost always at least one implicit love triangle playing out. Unless all that went on over his objections (and what, ever, did?), why assume he's going to stop now?

sueworld
14-12-07, 02:26 AM
Oh because I haven't seen any evidence of it so far, and because comics on a whole are very much a 'boy thing' in that they very rarely deal with 'young romance' type story lines.

Nostalgia
14-12-07, 02:30 AM
Wow..

:mouth waters:

Um.. I cannot believe how much better this guy is.. I can already tell how much I prefer him over Jeanty (no bashing towards Jeanty.. he's a good penciler..) but Cliff Richards is amazing!

And Buffy... in that bikini! :hf2: :loveeyes:

I can already tell I am going to fall in love with this issue. Just starting off with Buffy and Willow engaging in conversation.. without any true intro is fabulous. I love the Daniel Craig reference.. and it shows that the comics will indeed have the comedy package as well as the action and the drama. I truly feel like I am revisiting season 2 already.. this may be the closest Buffy's been with Willow in terms of friendship wise since season 2/3.. I'm loving it! :)

And also, Kings.. great point.. this does make me definitely begin to believe Willow is bi and not gay. Although it's subtle.. I definitely believe that this could be Joss working in some future hints. My guess? Xander/Willow.

KingofCretins
14-12-07, 04:04 AM
It actually cracks me up that if this was a TV episode, it would have a "Special Guest Appearance by Daniel Craig as Himself".

Buffy's bikini is going to be hammered, ridiculously, but it's not like we haven't seen the girl in a swimsuit before.

Nostalgia
14-12-07, 04:11 AM
Buffy's bikini is going to be hammered, ridiculously, but it's not like we haven't seen the girl in a swimsuit before.



Honestly, I think if we're gonna critique Buffy so much as to say THAT is too revealing.. I think we need to take our feminist side down a notch. Honestly, it blows my mind.. Do you honestly want Buffy to not have any lady-like qualities once so ever? Yes these pencilers are men.. but what I've always loved about Buffy was that she resembled the strength of women and at the same time was very good looking. If someone is going to say that that photo's not "proportional" to Sarah Michelle Gellar.. you need to go see read some anime. Plus, I kind of feel we're sort of offending SMG by consistently demanding to make her breast size smaller.. Do you honestly think she has no bust once so ever?

EDIT: Someone made mention of them hoping the bring up the ABH game again.. well.. that's the first thing they do when the issue starts it seems. :) Kind of a "Hey remember that game we played in high school? Wanna play?" kind of deal.

vampmogs
14-12-07, 04:20 AM
Oh because I haven't seen any evidence of it so far, and because comics on a whole are very much a 'boy thing' in that they very rarely deal with 'young romance' type story lines.

C'mon we've had technically two episodes, three if you count 'The Chain' it is far to early to determine wether or not Joss will focus on shipping. Besides we've already had a brief mention of the Willow/Kenny time out thing going on which will be further explained for certain and the little kissage between Buffy and Xander toying with the idea.

I think your being far too stereotypical and narrow minded in saying comics are a boy thing and thus Joss wont do shipping. Joss is a boy correct? Joss is still the same Joss that gave us seven years of relationships correct? Why'd you think suddenly because we are in the comic medium the guy has completely changed?



Buffy's bikini is going to be hammered, ridiculously, but it's not like we haven't seen the girl in a swimsuit before.

I'm expecting people going on about how big her breasts are but I don't really have a problem with it. Buffy is having a sexy fantasy, which means things have to be sexy. No harm in Buffy herself boosting herself up a little to suit her own steamy fantasy with Daniel Craig.

Really like where this issue seems to be heading. I got to say I like Jeanty's art better but then I actually liked his art better than the artist from 'The Chain' (Cliff Richards?) so it didn't really surprise me. Regardless the artist is still good. And it was adorable that Xander had that neat surprise for Dawn.

Nostalgia
14-12-07, 04:24 AM
C'mon we've had technically two episodes, three if you count 'The Chain' it is far to early to determine wether or not Joss will focus on shipping. Besides we've already had a brief mention of the Willow/Kenny time out thing going on which will be further explained for certain and the little kissage between Buffy and Xander toying with the idea.



Huh? It without a doubt three episodes.. don't discount "The Chain" just because it was side effort to the actual plot. I'm treating them as regular episodes.. and the issues take longer so the entire episodes are the ones that count. The standalones always have more pages in them (ABH has 26 pages.. that's HUGE for a comic)... so I'm gonna figure by the end we will have 22 full episodes.

Honestly? Her breasts aren't that much boosted.. It's not like Sarah Michelle Gellar was exactly missing too much in that department. I think the jury's out until things are spilling out.

vampmogs
14-12-07, 04:38 AM
Huh? It without a doubt three episodes.. don't discount "The Chain" just because it was side effort to the actual plot. I'm treating them as regular episodes.. and the issues take longer so the entire episodes are the ones that count. The standalones always have more pages in them (ABH has 26 pages.. that's HUGE for a comic)... so I'm gonna figure by the end we will have 22 full episodes.

Honestly? Her breasts aren't that much boosted.. It's not like Sarah Michelle Gellar was exactly missing too much in that department. I think the jury's out until things are spilling out.

I meant more that a arc is a lot more like the length of a real episode. With each issue being one act of an ep. 'The Chain' was one story with one issue and really isn't as long as an episode would be. Some people have seen it more as kind of a short film or something. I see it as an episode but I know some who don't, but I do just like I'll see this issue and the following issue as episodes as well.

Nostalgia
14-12-07, 04:42 AM
I meant more that a arc is a lot more like the length of a real episode. With each issue being one act of an ep. 'The Chain' was one story with one issue and really isn't as long as an episode would be. Some people have seen it more as kind of a short film or something. I see it as an episode but I know some who don't, but I do just like I'll see this issue and the following issue as episodes as well.

Yeah sorry if I came aggressive but I see this is just another way of slipping in a way to say "it's not the real deal.." Because if some people believe that this wasn't an episode.. than how can we say this is a real season if we have "short films" in between episodes? Just because it's shorter.. doesn't mean it's not real. Standalones are important to the medium because some things are perfectly addressed in one episode. I see it as a regular standalone in the series (episodes that don't reflect the arc to a certain extent.)

KingofCretins
14-12-07, 04:43 AM
Not a hard formula here; title = episode. Actually, Stormwreath is interpreting it as each 4 issue arc as a double episode, while the standalones are single episode, which would actually make "Anywhere But Here" episode 6 as opposed to Episode 4. Joss has said Season 8 is between 40 and 50 issues now; if we assume a 22 episode season*, that means we need to average 4-5 episodes per 10 issues. Which is exactly the pace we're on now.

*It's a comic book, so "season" is obviously not literal anyway. No reason to think Joss couldn't arc it around 20 or 24 'episodes'.

alexa
14-12-07, 08:31 AM
Buffy's anywhere but here is my anywhere but here.
I'm still waiting for #9 to arrive at my house, I hope by monday :( But took at a look at this preview anyway.
I like Jeanty a little more I think, but Richards is fine.
I wouldn't mind having a slice of Daniel Craig. He's a little over muscled there though, heh. Bikini doesn't offend me, that's pretty much what you imagine looking like in your anywhere but here scenarios... plus she's at the beach.
Xander's line is cute.

Sosa lola
14-12-07, 08:57 AM
I'm the loveliest fangirl out there :) I thought the boobies in this season so far were very... what's the word?... rational? That's a stupid word to use, but I meant, okay for my standard. They weren't that big, and they weren't that small.

I've seen complaints about Jeanity being afraid to draw these characters as women, and from that I realized that there will never be a win/win situation with the boobies-complainers. They basically don't like the characters in the Buffyverse or just don't like that it's continued in comic form, and whatever Joss/Jeanity/any writer tried to do, it will never be seen as good by them. To each their opinion I suppose, I'm enjoying the comics so far and content with what the writers are doing.

The funny bit is that those boobies-complainers are enjoying After the Fall... and I've seen how the breasts are drawn there. ;) Not that I'm dissing After the Fall, I'm enjoying it a lot, but if I'm gonna choose the comic where I'll be offended about how boobs are drawn, I'll pick After the Fall right away.


About this issue:

I think it'll be my favorite! I'm a huge Scoobies fan (Buffy, Xander and Willow rule!) and I'm so happy it's about them and them only. The Xander-Dawn scene was just the cutest! And Buffy and Willow playing the game is so nostalgic.

I thought this artist drew Xander and Dawn better than Jeanity, but Jeanity's Willow has more likeness.

Phoenix
14-12-07, 09:27 AM
Wow, seems like its going to be a great issue already :) The artwork is brilliant, but I prefer the way Jeanty drew Willow, it was more alike imo. But still great :)

Enisy
14-12-07, 10:01 AM
I like. I really, really like.

While I still think Joss's writing is better-suited to the TV medium -- especially his humor -- this definitely seems to be his best piece of work in the new season thus far (The Long Way Home was just disappointing). Looks like we'll be getting some beautiful Buffy/Willow interaction, the likes of which we haven't seen since early Season 7, and quite cute Xander/Dawn interaction. I'm crossing my fingers for the sitch on Dawn and the timespan between Chosen and The Long Way Home, as well as a little reminiscing about Willow/Tara, Spike/Buffy and maybe Xander/Anya. (It's a theme... dead girlfriends and, uh, not!dead!not!boyfriends.)

And actually, I might like Richards's art a bit better than Jeanty's, if this glimpse is anything to go by. Can we keep him?

Wolfie Gilmore
14-12-07, 10:50 AM
Re boobies...the only complaint I have really is that they told the Chain girl she had to pad her bra. I thought she had about the same size chest as Buffy? Confusing (and just seemed a bit mean!).

But, to the issue at hand...it looks like it's going to be a brilliant ride. Can I just say how much I like Willow taking Buffy for a ride? Anyone else read "Invincible"? (It's an Image Comics title) This really reminds me of that - the main character's best friend is always insisting his super-powered friends take him up for a flight. Though Buffy seems less keen. Love some of the writing here ("Less better!"), and the pic of Buffy and Willow soaring over the countryside is excellent.

Xander and Dawn, very sweet indeed. Making it look like a Xander doll because of hte comparative sizes :D

Veverka
14-12-07, 11:37 AM
This looks awesome, and I'm really into the idea that Dawn will confide in Xander about what ever it was that happened to her.

As for complaints and what not- so Buffy's in a bikini and looks hot. So what? That's what happens when a hot girl wears a bikini, you know. And she's from California, so a beach fantasy- totally valid. All of the characters are looking good, my mind springs here to Xander... if I was the type to lust after a drawing... well... hmmm... *snaps back* Um, anyway!

Yes, going to be a great episode/issue.

sueworld
14-12-07, 11:57 AM
I've seen complaints about Jeanity being afraid to draw these characters as women, and from that I realized that there will never be a win/win situation with the boobies-complainers. They basically don't like the characters in the Buffyverse or just don't like that it's continued in comic form, and whatever Joss/Jeanity/any writer tried to do, it will never be seen as good by them. To each their opinion I suppose, I'm enjoying the comics so far and content with what the writers are doing.

The funny bit is that those boobies-complainers are enjoying After the Fall... and I've seen how the breasts are drawn there. Not that I'm dissing After the Fall, I'm enjoying it a lot, but if I'm gonna choose the comic where I'll be offended about how boobs are drawn, I'll pick After the Fall right away.



Has anyone actually complained about boob size in this issue? Because I for one don't have any problems with it here. Maybe because it's been drawn this time by (in my opinion) by a better artist I don't know.

The reason why I've not been keen on season 8 so far has very little to do with 'boob' size I'm afraid, unless you count the fact I disliked how Faith ws depicted in the last issue. Making her look like a 12 year old.

Sosa lola
14-12-07, 12:06 PM
Re boobies...the only complaint I have really is that they told the Chain girl she had to pad her bra. I thought she had about the same size chest as Buffy? Confusing (and just seemed a bit mean!)

I agree. That was a WTF moment for me.


Has anyone actually complained about boob size in this issue? Because I for one don't have any problems with it here. Maybe because it's been drawn this time by (in my opinion) by a better artist I don't know.

So far, no. But the night is young. :)


The reason why I've not been keen on season 8 so far has very little to do with 'boob' size I'm afraid, unless you count the fact I disliked how Faith ws depicted in the last issue. Making her look like a 12 year old.

I understand why you dislike the comics, I was merely talking about the boobies-complainers. ;)

Faith's breasts in Jeanity's drawing are actually bigger than her breasts in the scene from S3 :lol:

vampmogs
14-12-07, 12:16 PM
Has anyone actually complained about boob size in this issue? Because I for one don't have any problems with it here. Maybe because it's been drawn this time by (in my opinion) by a better artist I don't know.

The reason why I've not been keen on season 8 so far has very little to do with 'boob' size I'm afraid, unless you count the fact I disliked how Faith ws depicted in the last issue. Making her look like a 12 year old.

Over on Whedonesque I believe it has been raised, it was inevitable it would. It seems to be some people's favourite topic.

I'm not sure which artist I'm liking better. I know some people have had a problem with Jeanty's art but I for one thing he has the ability to show the character's emotions so well through his faces that I'm a fan of his work. I don't mind this artist either, though the shadow thing is a little weird. But the art was never a big factor for me, of course the art is an important part of the comic. But as long as the artist can covey emotions (IMO all artists in the season so far have) and the scripts are good (IMO they are) I'm happy.

I mean I for one think that Jeanty completely nailed Buffy's heartbreak on the phone to Giles after he tells her he doesn't want her being a part of this. I think he conveyed so many bloody emotions with her look as she holds the phone close to her ear. I can see the emotion in her eyes.

KingofCretins
14-12-07, 06:28 PM
I think Richards, Lee, and Jeanty all bring something pretty awesome. Richards and Lee were already comfortable drawing the Buffyverse, and Jeanty has grown into it very well during "No Future For You", and I think he was already pretty much all over the characters by 8.04.

There are boob complaints and gender hypocrisy all over the place already, and I honestly think some of it is people that just need to complain.

Some other thoughts about this issue so far...

-- Buffy and Willow actually playing the game! And talking! And being funny! There has not yet and never could be one wasted panel in this series where the main scoobies are being close friends and talking to each other.

-- Willow agreeing that Daniel Craig is hot... I think Joss may have been convinced by four years of the prevailing thinking that Willow is mostly likely bisexual.

-- *actually putting Daniel Craig in the comic*. That was so funny, not only because, unlike on the TV show, where you couldn't actually *show* where they were when they played "Anywhere But Here", but it's funny to think of his name in episode credits. It actually makes me wonder if, like the references to Amy Winehouse, they are dating the season further ahead than the year and a half we were told early on.

-- Xander has manful stubble. Good on him.

-- People actualy care about Dawn's situation enough to get her clean clothes! Hopefully she has a coat in that suitcase. Anyone think that was Xander's idea from the start?

-- Would I be insane if I thought this Xander and Dawn scene had a more 'shippy vibe than family vibe?

sueworld
14-12-07, 06:38 PM
- Willow agreeing that Daniel Craig is hot..

I'm totally confused here. Based on what going on in that preview how do you come to that conclusion?

It comes across as anything but to me personally. The 'He's got a thing' being a 'I don't fancy him because he's got a penis' gag for a start.

KingofCretins
14-12-07, 06:41 PM
I don't know... maybe I'm wrong; I've been earboxed plenty for my simplistic approach of reading the dialogue. You read the two panels together, she's agreeing with Buffy's taste, and being skeptical over her overall creativity, thus to set up the "they're flying around" reveal.

Your reading of "he's got a thing" is a loo, shag, and brolly issue, I think. In American slang, someone "has a thing", i.e. a quality, something to be admired, attractiveness, charisma, so on.

Sosa lola
14-12-07, 06:45 PM
I think what Willow meant was more, "I think he's got something about him, but overall he's not my type." I don't think she was talking about his penis ;) even though the way Joss wrote it was to make us go "Ooooh it can go as if Willow was talking about his penis. Funny!"

sueworld
14-12-07, 06:49 PM
No, I have to say you have read it wrong I believe. It's meant to be a play on words. Joss has made a career move out of such things in his past work. Where dialog can be taken as meaning two different things.

"You don't like Daniel Craig"

"No, he's got a thing" shouts penis gag to me. Even if you ignore that, she actually say no, he's not for her.

KingofCretins
14-12-07, 07:22 PM
Interesting statement about "Anywhere But Here" by Scott Allie...


In #10, he puts Buffy and Willow through the emotional wringer--as usual--foreshadowing worse times ahead for the girls, and revealing the pain and guilt one of them has carried around for years. If you've ever cried over an episode of Buffy--and I know a lot of you have--we might just get you with this comic book.

So... enjoy the happy-go-lucky tone of the preview pages while you got it, I guess. I'm curious which one of them is goin to be have the pain and guilt and what it will be over. I can honestly see possible directions for that for either Buffy or Willow.

Koos
14-12-07, 09:02 PM
I'm very much looking forward to this issue, because this is an episode is a typical Joss episode that brings us the core of what made Buffy so great and where Joss' true genius lies.

I love the teaser and I really liked the Daniel Craig funny.

Sosa lola
14-12-07, 09:10 PM
No, I have to say you have read it wrong I believe. It's meant to be a play on words. Joss has made a career move out of such things in his past work. Where dialog can be taken as meaning two different things.

That's what I meant in my poorly explaining post. :) It was said to make you believe in two meanings.

"You don't like Daniel Craig?" Buffy asked.

"No, he's got a thing, I just..."

Actually this suggests that Willow thinks he's good looking because he's got a thing, but she just doesn't swing that way. When asked, "You don't like that person?" If you like them, you answer with "No". If you don't like them, you answer with "Yes."

"You don't like Daniel Craig?" Buffy asked.

"No, I like him, I just..."

"You don't like Daniel Craig?" Buffy asked.

"Yes, I don't like him."

Enisy
14-12-07, 10:12 PM
So... enjoy the happy-go-lucky tone of the preview pages while you got it, I guess. I'm curious which one of them is goin to be have the pain and guilt and what it will be over. I can honestly see possible directions for that for either Buffy or Willow.

My first guess would be Willow, since we know she's going to talk about Tara in this issue, but... we went over her pain and guilt in The Killer in Me already, didn't we?

alexa
14-12-07, 11:41 PM
I didn't realize anyone complained about boobs in this thread? Are there some invisible posts?
It's kind of debatable if Willow might be slipping into bisexuality in that short preview.. hm no wait it isn't, she's not. ;) I've changed my mind, you can admit someone has a 'thing' without wanting to get with them. Eliza has a 'thing' about her, and don't want any of that.

Nostalgia
15-12-07, 12:53 AM
I didn't realize anyone complained about boobs in this thread? Are there some invisible posts?
It's kind of debatable if Willow might be slipping into bisexuality in that short preview.. hm no wait it isn't, she's not. ;) I've changed my mind, you can admit someone has a 'thing' without wanting to get with them. Eliza has a 'thing' about her, and don't want any of that.

What would be the big deal anyway? To state it bluntly.. Buffy wasn't exactly flat as a floorboard.. she's always had some umph to her to a certain degree.. and I think this depicts her perfectly... just as she looks in real life.

Wow.. I was looking forward to a happy episode :(..

I don't know who is going to be crying.. to with Willow's disappearance, murder of Rack and attempted murder of Warren, and a few other possible ghosts in the closet.. I think we're settling on Willow here. I honestly cannot think of one scar that Buffy would be hiding.

EDIT:

Willow's quote.. she says "Yeah he's got a thing, but.." Not Yeah.. he's got a thing (penis.) I think it's evident she meant he's got a thing going.. (a la he's pretty good looking.)

KingofCretins
15-12-07, 01:18 AM
"No, he's got a thing, I just..."

Actually this suggests that Willow thinks he's good looking because he's got a thing, but she just doesn't swing that way. When asked, "You don't like that person?" If you like them, you answer with "No". If you don't like them, you answer with "Yes."

Guys... the line doesn't stop there. Read it like you would actually *say* it, and the meaning becomes clear --

"No, he's got a thing, I just... the beach? Rubbing oil? It's a little generic?"

Basically, Willow is saying "I concur with the validity of this fantasy, I just think it's a little prosaic compared to what you are capable of."


My first guess would be Willow, since we know she's going to talk about Tara in this issue, but... we went over her pain and guilt in The Killer in Me already, didn't we?

We don't know that... when did we know that? They're going to talk to Robin Balzar's character.


I don't know who is going to be crying.. to with Willow's disappearance, murder of Rack and attempted murder of Warren, and a few other possible ghosts in the closet.. I think we're settling on Willow here. I honestly cannot think of one scar that Buffy would be hiding.

Buffy has a lot of possible weight she could be carrying around, too -- sending Spike to his death, as she may feel she might have done, turning her back on Angel*, the entire Slayer spell, how things stand with Giles, her ongoing failure to really, really connect to her sister, several other things I could think of that are plausible. If it's Willow, I frankly hope for more than just another recap of her Season 6 arc. I'd rather she have pathos about leaving the gang, or Kennedy, or I don't know what. It's worth noting that they say this is something that has been carried around "for years" -- what the actual issue is will give us some more timeline sense.

*See how this could actually be turned into a story-advancing character event, and not just magically wished away?

Enisy
15-12-07, 01:41 AM
We don't know that... when did we know that? They're going to talk to Robin Balzar's character.

I distinctly recall Scott Allie assuring a fan that they were going to hear about Tara again in this issue -- and in a tearjerking context at that.

KingofCretins
15-12-07, 01:43 AM
So, they very well might *hear* about Tara again, but no reason to hope they're going to hear *from* Tara. Although, if true, I guess it's another round of Willow vents about turning evil and losing Tara. Hope they have some new angle to put on it, like it relating to her breaking up with Kennedy, or some other love interest for her.

Enisy
15-12-07, 01:47 AM
Never said they're going to hear from Tara. And yeah, I hope they put some new spin on it, because I don't really fancy a repeat of The Killer in Me, even if it's penned by Joss. The issues you proposed Buffy might have would be much more interesting to explore.

KingofCretins
15-12-07, 01:55 AM
Buffy could be carrying around a lot more weight than Willow -- Willow mostly has just had the one or two major traumas. Buffy has many more. She might feel bad about Xander's eye, even, heck, I don't know. She might feel like she failed Annabelle and Chloe (which, in the latter case, she kinda did).

We do know that the context for the whole weepy conversation is going to be related to some kind of bad, prophecy type news from Robin Balzar's demon character.

vampmogs
15-12-07, 01:58 AM
I think it'll touch on both of them but I think Willow may be focused on a little more. I agree with Eisny that it was mentioned Tara would be brought up in this issue and I think with Warren's return it has stirred up some old feelings for Willow.

Weredog
15-12-07, 01:59 AM
Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow.

Wow.

Okay, where do I begin? Already, I'm flashbacking to all of the mundane moments The Scoobies had (ie. braiding Willow's hair in "Reptile Boy", prom dress discussion in "The Prom, swing dancing to Disney music in "Dead Things" and obviously playing Anywhere but Here in "The Dark Age") I love the details in the very first panel. Notice that even in Buffy's anywhere but here, she still blends her Slayer self and Buffy self: cross pendant, Lestat book and an iPod nano? Riley was right: Slayer Buffy and Buffy Buffy are Buffy.

The artwork is amazing! Cliff Richards knows how to draw these characters -- and he should. he's drawn Buffy comics in that past before. If Georges Jeanty ever decided to step down as series' penciller -- not that I'm encouraging him to do so; he's been improving immensely -- I'd want Richard to take his position. 5 stars, Richard!

Here's a couple questions that maybe you guys could answer:


Judging by the landscape Buffy and Willow fly over, are they still in Scotland? If not, where do you think?

If the Wiccan Squad can biggify Dawn's clothes, why can't they smallize Dawn herself?

Joss has decided to incorporate Robin in the mythology rather than just stamp her face over some character. Does this mean she'll be schizophrenic or will Joss disregard that?

KingofCretins
15-12-07, 02:04 AM
I think they may be further south, in England perhaps. Mostly because I'd have a harder time buying that Willow is able to manage the whole ocean-crossing thing with a Slayer in tow. Or, at all, because she's not Superman.

I think biggifying clothes is probably a little safer for the novices to attempt than smallifying living human person. I would tend to agree. Maybe they biggify hamburgers for her. That's how I'll fanwank the protein mystery. It'll be nice for her to get into different clothes, I'm sure.

Still have to ask... am I crazy with the mildly 'shippy vibe there?

I read the essay that Robin's husband wrote, it's on that page, and I'm thinking that Joss won't make her a fully schizophrenic character, but may model her after Drusilla a fair amount, since Mr. Balzar said that was someone Robin really has identified with. It makes me sniffly just to think of the whole story of doing this contest and so on. I really hope her husband gets to walk in to her room and show her a courier delivered, signed copy of the Jeanty cover that has her on it with her two heroes :) *happy cry*

vampmogs
15-12-07, 02:08 AM
Judging by the landscape Buffy and Willow fly over, are they still in Scotland? If not, where do you think?

Yeah I agree with King, maybe England? But I also think it could pass off as Scotland as well right? I've only ever been there once but it kind of looks like Scotland with the country side and everything. All I know is that it'd be very cold up their in the sky, moving that fast. Yeesh.


If the Wiccan Squad can biggify Dawn's clothes, why can't they smallize Dawn herself?

Again agree with King. It is probably a lot safer to practice on. I'm guessing it takes more powerful magic. Also Willow says she knows exactly what happened to work out a way to make her small again. She hasn't shared that yet. I'm thinking it requires breaking someone elses spell which is the problem, whereas making more clothes big doesn't require this.


Joss has decided to incorporate Robin in the mythology rather than just stamp her face over some character. Does this mean she'll be schizophrenic or will Joss disregard that?[/b]
[/LIST]

It'll be very interesting. I think it is a pretty delicate thing here. If he doesn't then is it really her? If he does will his story be limited? Hmm who knows. We don't even know if she'll be called Robin in the mytho of the show.

Nostalgia
15-12-07, 03:39 AM
Buffy could be carrying around a lot more weight than Willow -- Willow mostly has just had the one or two major traumas. Buffy has many more. She might feel bad about Xander's eye, even, heck, I don't know. She might feel like she failed Annabelle and Chloe (which, in the latter case, she kinda did).

We do know that the context for the whole weepy conversation is going to be related to some kind of bad, prophecy type news from Robin Balzar's demon character.

Really? Eh' I have to disagree.. I feel that Buffy's in one of her times right now. I don't see how Joss could pull off portraying her breaking down about something that we've known about already. Spike's death may have hurt her.. but if we're going to see characters breaking down and making us potentially cry.. I don't think that would be the aim. I think it would focus more on guilt that pain from others dying. That's why I also disagree with the idea of Tara being brought back somehow. I don't know.. I'm sure that is a possibility.. but I find it much more in context with the situation right now for Willow to break down than for Buffy.

We don't even know what's happened to Willow since Chosen.. which is another strong reason it's her. She has been hiding a lot of things, her relationship with Kennedy, where she was, what happened, etc. I'd put and place a big amount of money it's on the witch.

Weredog
15-12-07, 04:38 PM
Hmm, I find it interesting that George's variant cover has Buffy and Willow dressed exactly as they are in Richards' pencils. I'm surprised because usually the artists' covers don't match to the other artists' pencils (ie. Jo Chen and Jeanty.) Did George and Richards collaborate together or huh?

KingofCretins
15-12-07, 04:41 PM
I'm betting that that has to do with making the whole issue as enjoyable and tailored to the essay winner as possible. Typically, no, the variants are more abstract -- Buffy, Faith, and Genevieve were never in formalwear together, the Avengers thing, the puzzle pieces, the "Uncle Sam" poster. They are about conveying the 'feel' of the story. Here, though, I think the only real purpose of the variant cover is to put Robin in frame with Buffy and Willow, and you might as well have it match the actual story in that case.

alexa
16-12-07, 05:22 AM
I don't have a problem with Tara coming back if there is a good story behind it. But Joss had a good story, which he described at the comic con, so I guess he's not using that one anymore.
I know I might be beating a dead horse.. if that's the expression, but I still want Buffy to remember her day with Angel when he was human. Guess it would be pointless though if there's not pay off. Anyway be glad when I get this.

KingofCretins
16-12-07, 05:25 AM
Yeah, that ship ('ship?) has sailed. Plus, hard to phlebotenumize a way for her to remember a day that didn't happen. There's Angel tells her and... Angel tells her.

Marti Noxon also said that if she's ever invited in to write an arc of Season 8, she'd like to bring back Tara, but no indication if she's going to be involved, or if Joss would sign off on such a story.

Nostalgia
16-12-07, 05:33 AM
Yeah, that ship ('ship?) has sailed. Plus, hard to phlebotenumize a way for her to remember a day that didn't happen. There's Angel tells her and... Angel tells her.

Marti Noxon also said that if she's ever invited in to write an arc of Season 8, she'd like to bring back Tara, but no indication if she's going to be involved, or if Joss would sign off on such a story.

Yeah I remember we were talking about that.. Many fans were very anti-bringing her back.. including myself. You can't just kill off and resurrect.. it ruins the entire death.

vampmogs
16-12-07, 07:53 AM
Yeah, that ship ('ship?) has sailed. Plus, hard to phlebotenumize a way for her to remember a day that didn't happen. There's Angel tells her and... Angel tells her.

I'm sure they could come up with something a little more creative than that ;)

I actually would like to see it happen one day. To show Buffy something she lost. It is the first time she has truly been in love and had a normal boyfriend and feel like a normal girl at the same time, big loss if she ever remembered it. But don't think this issue would ever be the one to show it. Joss did say however that he never ruled out making her remember, depends if it fits in well with the story.

alexa
16-12-07, 09:00 AM
Yeah I'm glad I'm not the only fan remembering that .. not meaning to make a pun, heh. I can't see it being the big moment though unless Angel was able to make an appearance or if it was leading up to a meeting. I remember reading that he said she could remember if it had a good story attached to it. Be surprised if it happened though.

vampmogs
16-12-07, 09:26 AM
Yeah I'm glad I'm not the only fan remembering that .. not meaning to make a pun, heh. I can't see it being the big moment though unless Angel was able to make an appearance or if it was leading up to a meeting. I remember reading that he said she could remember if it had a good story attached to it. Be surprised if it happened though.


Yeah I'm not holding my breath. But I'd like it, even if Angel wasn't to make an appearance. It is kind of like Joss' plans for bringing back Tara. When Joss outlined his story that he planned for bringing her back in season seven, he said how Buffy would consider all the things she could wish for. He said one of those things would be lifting Angel's curse or making him human, though I'm pretty sure it was the first. Angel wasn't going to make an appearance but it was still possible for her to consider something to do with Angel without the need for his character to pop up, which he could have as the idea of lifting the curse could have changed from just an idea into her head into a big old dramatic episode quite easily. Same thing, Buffy could just learn this and feel down. Perhaps in a connection a story focusing on the normal life she didn't apparently choose after 'Chosen' and maybe regretting it, then remembering that feeling of being a normal girl like she did when Angel was human and feeling even worse? Doesn't have to be some big Bangel event or anything like that, I'd just like her to remember it.

Koos
16-12-07, 01:54 PM
Again agree with King. It is probably a lot safer to practice on. I'm guessing it takes more powerful magic. Also Willow says she knows exactly what happened to work out a way to make her small again. She hasn't shared that yet. I'm thinking it requires breaking someone elses spell which is the problem, whereas making more clothes big doesn't require this.

This sounds very plausable and I agree with it to an extend, but I think it's more about breaking an excisting spell. For that they need Willow, because they don't know what caused it and it's probably powerful.

vampmogs
16-12-07, 02:00 PM
This sounds very plausable and I agree with it to an extend, but I think it's more about breaking an excisting spell. For that they need Willow, because they don't know what caused it and it's probably powerful.

Yeah I agree. The problem is breaking the already existing spell on Dawn. They could change the clothing back and forth because it was their own spell.

Nostalgia
16-12-07, 03:26 PM
Okay this thread has gotten too Bangely'.. :)

New topic:

What I am interested in.. What possibly could bring us to tears in this episode??!

Unless a character death or some big burdened secret.. I am lost for words.

Koos
16-12-07, 05:34 PM
What I am interested in.. What possibly could bring us to tears in this episode??!


The idea that Buffy feels guilty about Tara's death sounds very plausible. So, bringing this up in a realistic way (perhaps with her return and her leaving again) might get a tear out of us :cutecry:

But I think it will be more related to the winner: Jerrod Balzer who wrote an entry on behalf of his wife, Robin.
Apparently Robin related herself to the character Drusilla. Something with her might be the case. Robin is suffering from schizophrenia. Seeing herself in the comic with Buffy would help her lot.

I think it will be along the line of Willow's magic addiction in the past and Buffy feeling guilty for always having relied on Willow's magic without taking regard of the consequences for Willow. The connection with Robin will then be on the perception of reality.

I don't know much about schizophrenia, but it is characterized by impairments in the perception or expression of reality. And magic can change reality.

On top of this we have Dawn's mysterious growing magic in the same issue and we have the theme of the end of the age of magic according to Twilight.

Tom
17-12-07, 03:52 PM
I'm feeling that "this is what could of happened if you'd have done such a thing differently..." is going to come up, and I welcome the idea.

If that isn't clear what I mean is Willow witnesses herself flaying Warren alive and then sees herself letting him go instead. The girls then get to see what would have happened after setting him free... for example; Warren goes to jail and the team up between him and evil Amy may not have happened. (That was just a poor example, not a prediction.)

KingofCretins
17-12-07, 05:47 PM
That makes sense, since I think one of the versions of the blurb for this issue was that Robin would show them a "possible future", which, implicitly, means she might show them "possible pasts". She could really stick it to Buffy and Willow both, actually. Willow if she hadn't gone dark. Buffy if she hadn't... gone darkish. Or maybe if she'd caught up to Riley, or something.

I am sure Robin will be a very emotional figure. As I said, given her condition and the fact that she feels a 'connection' to the Drusilla character, I think that her character might have a sort of Drusilla like quality, in terms of personality. But not as malevolent -- I'm thinking that Robin might be a sort of successor to Whistler, in terms of the role she'll play in the story.

Weredog
17-12-07, 11:23 PM
If that isn't clear what I mean is Willow witnesses herself flaying Warren alive and then sees herself letting him go instead. The girls then get to see what would have happened after setting him free... for example; Warren goes to jail and the team up between him and evil Amy may not have happened. (That was just a poor example, not a prediction.)

I'm not sure how exactly that would progress their character developments. I mean if we were to use your example, how would this "Warren goes to jail" -- or any "what if" for that matter -- affect Buffy and Willow? Whether they like it or not, they have to deal with what they're presented with currently.

ThePoet's<3
18-12-07, 04:52 AM
Very nice!!

And I think I will go on and on and on about how scandalously large Buffy's *boobies" (Nostalgia you are so CUTE!) are and the ridiculously weird angle her waist is in preportion to her hips and speaking of hips have we been indulging in the bon-bons Slayer?? ... blah, blah, blah...
(And Joss is the one who wanted "slight" - a.k.a. - "flat-chested" females drawn - or at least that's his comments in the opening of Fray. Of course we could also say this is a "dream" so everything is BIGGER! LOL!! ;))

Actually - this artist is okay - I like Jeanty better for Buffy, Xander and Willow and this guy for Dawn. I think Jeanty almost has Xander down to a "T".

And YES!! Love that Buffy is reading Lestat!!! HHHmmmm... Thinking and reading about Vampires are we Slayer?? Is that because there's a couple of them on your mind? Or is that to ready us readers for the new Vamps moving into town???

Daniel Craig?? Yuck. I was rooting for Hugh Jackman for Bond. I see Craig and I think - "Road to Perdition". Buffy... So disappointed... However - if we 'Shippers want to grab at any thread that's out there - Craig is BLOND and he has abs like - maybe - perhaps - SPIKE??? HHmmm... Maybe I'm starting to see Buffy's crush-point...

And I do hope Willow is Bi - I want her back with OZ!!!! Or at least Xander... Tara was sweet but OZ... *sigh*

Nostalgia
18-12-07, 05:02 AM
How are Buffy's breasts bigger than usual? Honestly.. would you rather have her downgraded than accurate? I doubt Joss wanted his women completely flat chested.. because.. frankly.. that's not appealing.. and not applied to the character. Sarah was not flat chested.. and she still isn't.

I agree about Jeanty doing Xander better.. but HOW is Buffy done better? And Willow! This guy is much better!! And he's a more colorful artist.. which I love more.


And I do hope Willow is Bi - I want her back with OZ!!!! Or at least Xander... Tara was sweet but OZ... *sigh*[/spoiler]

Oh you have no idea...

KingofCretins
18-12-07, 05:09 AM
Sarah has cut a different figure at different stages of the Buffy TV series, to be sure, but Richards isn't drawing anything inconsistent to her physique in Season 1 and Season 2, really. But, that's besides the point -- she has likeness rights. She signed off on Richards in order for him to be on this comic. Since she's really the only *actual* female body that is ever held up for comparison to Buffy art and animation, and she's okay with it, then it must be fine :)

Actually, I think Richards has Xander down as well as we've seen him in that close-up panel with Dawn.


Oh you have no idea...

I don't think there are any controversial sexual politics if Willow were to get involved with Xander or Oz again... because the key word is "again". I mean, I can't figure any reasonable complaint about it.

Weredog
18-12-07, 05:28 AM
I don't think there are any controversial sexual politics if Willow were to get involved with Xander or Oz again... because the key word is "again". I mean, I can't figure any reasonable complaint about it.

You mean other than the fact that we've been there and done that? As much as I love Willow and Oz, I can't see how they could get back together. In terms of plot device, what more could he do by being Willow's boyfriend (again)? And as for Xander, well, I think Willow answered it in "Help": "I'm over you, sweetie."

If Joss did indeed want Willow to return to Boysville (which I predict he won't), I'd at least want Willow to find new love in someone, well, new.

ThePoet's<3
18-12-07, 05:31 AM
I have no problem with her physique. I'm just funnin' about those who think Urru draws the women of ATF so well-endowed. I"t's different when it's Buffy..." :p

I did think she was a little fuller in the hips than she has been drawn. But as I said - this was a dream so maybe things were meant to be drawn a bit out of preportion.

Out of Jeanty and Richards for Buffy "face" - I like this guy better. Out of cover drawings of Buffy - Chen all the way. Someone has a banner on the board with a picture of Chen's flying Willow and Foster's Buffy side by side. Look at the squashed appearance of Buffy's head in Foster's drawing vs. the almost "dead-on" accuracy of Chen's!

I still think Chen/Jeanty has the better drawing of Xander - as in more likeness to Nick.

Oh I hope it's true that OZ and Willow might have a chance again... Seth/OZ = yummy!

KingofCretins
18-12-07, 05:36 AM
Well, technically, the series have never really done a "get back together" type of thing. Hasn't ever really happened. The closest you could call it are Oz and Willow, who had beef from the end of "Lover's Walk" until the middle of "Amends", and most of that time was spent watching an alternate universe. Them, or Spike/Harmony? Maybe?

Like I said, I don't see any reasonable argument that Willow getting involved with one of her two male former love interests would be poor sexual politics.

Weredog
18-12-07, 05:50 AM
Out of cover drawings of Buffy - Chen all the way. Someone has a banner on the board with a picture of Chen's flying Willow and Foster's Buffy side by side. Look at the squashed appearance of Buffy's head in Foster's drawing vs. the almost "dead-on" accuracy of Chen's!

Oh, I agree. When Foster's cover for 8.11 came out, I had speculated that he had Buffy face "away from the camera" because he can't excel in capturing Gellar's face as Chen can. Now, understandably, other posters believed I was wrong and said that it was because the focus was on Twilight. However I think we can all agree that 8.12 confirms my assumption that Foster's talent isn't as impressive as Chen's. I love the visual symbolism of the vampires "bleeding" but Buffy's look disappoints me greatly. That just isn't my Buffy. :(

But let's get back on topic! :xd


Well, technically, the series have never really done a "get back together" type of thing. Hasn't ever really happened. The closest you could call it are Oz and Willow, who had beef from the end of "Lover's Walk" until the middle of "Amends", and most of that time was spent watching an alternate universe. Them, or Spike/Harmony? Maybe?

Like I said, I don't see any reasonable argument that Willow getting involved with one of her two male former love interests would be poor sexual politics.

We had never seen a "get back together" because the writers know that it wouldn't further either characters. "New Moon Rising" very much saluted to the couple and confirmed that these two characters are going in two completely different directions in their lives. Which is heartbreaking for Willow/Oz fans, but great for Willow fans and Oz fans because it allows individual character exploration.
I honestly do not know how a Willow/Oz re-coupling would benefit one or the other. They can be friends, sure, but a couple?

alexa
18-12-07, 05:59 AM
I'm confused as to whether Oz is showing up in season 8 or After the Fall. But it would be a little odd for her to get back with him.. but I love Oz, be cool if he is around anyway

I don't know about everyone else, but the boobs in this panel of Buffy didn't bother me, because of the context (being a fantasy) and the rest of the series so far. I don't feel inundated with huge breasts and mid drift tops with Buffy. In AAFT I'm yet to see a female that doesn't have an exposed large cleavage.. and it felt a little in my face. But that's just me.

KingofCretins
18-12-07, 06:06 AM
I strongly believe that, if people do it, one can tell stories about it. And people who've dated before do get back together even after years. I mean, really, people have no problem with justifying further Buffy/Angel or Buffy/Spike on that basis, and both of those 'ships are fairly well played out. I think there's plenty of story still to tell if Willow were to get back together with one of those guys. I would love a way to do a legitimate poll on fans' opinions of Willow's sexuality. I think she just loves who she loves.

ThePoet's<3
18-12-07, 06:37 AM
I would agree with that...

No, Buffy never addressed couples getting back together... I suppose it would be a first (I don't really count Spike and Harmony... There relationship is so volatile it never feels on or off - it is what it is for the time-being.)

I'm actually quite interested in how the comic is going to address 'Ship antics. I somehow don't see the penciling of say - a Season 6 Spuffy - drawn in art... I guess there will be some semi-nude drawings, inuendos, cut to a panel of smoking a cigarette in bed.

Oh BTW - Kanga has that Chen/Foster banner!! :)

KingofCretins
18-12-07, 06:45 AM
I'm actually quite interested in how the comic is going to address 'Ship antics. I somehow don't see the penciling of say - a Season 6 Spuffy - drawn in art... I guess there will be some semi-nude drawings, inuendos, cut to a panel of smoking a cigarette in bed.

Comics can be quite graphic, it's really just up to the tone they want to set. I do tend to think any sexuality will involve a lot of facial close-ups, silhouetting, or just cutting away, though.

They certainly can get as graphic as they did in the HSB. I guess we'll find out once Buffy and Xander get it on, right? ;)

Weredog
18-12-07, 05:04 PM
I strongly believe that, if people do it, one can tell stories about it. And people who've dated before do get back together even after years. I mean, really, people have no problem with justifying further Buffy/Angel or Buffy/Spike on that basis, and both of those 'ships are fairly well played out.

See I can't compare Willow/Oz to Buffy/Angel or Buffy/Spike. Buffy's relationship with those guys were left at a standstill: there was closure but it wasn't conclusive. And that would go for Tara as well, she and Willow still have miles to go.
But Willow/Oz are done. "New Moon Rising" closed it off (whilst "Wild at Heart" left it very Buffy/Angel-esque). If I had to compare Willow and Oz getting back together, I'd have to compare Xander getting back together with Cordelia: sure, there's nothing wrong with getting back with an old flame, but these characters are leading two completely different lives now that they just can't.

Koos
18-12-07, 06:45 PM
See I can't compare Willow/Oz to Buffy/Angel or Buffy/Spike. Buffy's relationship with those guys were left at a standstill: there was closure but it wasn't conclusive.

Buffy/Angel has been conclusive at the end of S2, S3 and S7. Buffy never has a relationship with Spike.

KingofCretins
18-12-07, 07:13 PM
I don't think Willow/Oz felt very conclusive from Oz's standpoint in "New Moon Rising". I do agree that they were *trying* to "conclude" Buffy/Angel in... "The Prom", "Graduation, Part II", "I Will Remember You", "The Yoko Factor"... were all supposed to be iconic kinds of "endings" to that relationship, but the fans keep finding the d.c. al coda.

I actually think there's a lot more to tell about the various Willow 'ships mentioned here than the Buffy ones, at least for the relationships that they've actually used on screen.

Nostalgia
18-12-07, 07:29 PM
I don't think there are any controversial sexual politics if Willow were to get involved with Xander or Oz again... because the key word is "again". I mean, I can't figure any reasonable complaint about it


When I said "Oh, you have no idea.." I meant you have no idea how much I'd love to see that happen again. I've always preferred Willow and Oz's relationship a bit more.. I guess because I could identify with it more. I think Oz was a great character for her.. and although controversial, I think he was fit better for her. Tara just seemed to be a love at first sight type of deal.. and although they both share their trait with magic.. I always felt that Willow and Oz had made for the better and stronger relationship.

:ducks:


But Willow/Oz are done. "New Moon Rising" closed it off (whilst "Wild at Heart" left it very Buffy/Angel-esque). If I had to compare Willow and Oz getting back together, I'd have to compare Xander getting back together with Cordelia: sure, there's nothing wrong with getting back with an old flame, but these characters are leading two completely different lives now that they just can't.

I wouldn't say that.. there may have even been some foreshadowing because one of the essences in Willow from "The Long Way Home," was a werewolf type creature. It's good to know that she still has a part of him in her, so to speak.. let alone still think about him possibly? To good to be true.

I really think there's a room for Willow and Oz to get back together.. I think it's safe to say that if Willow is willing to go out with Kennedy that soon, she'd be ready to get back together with Oz.

Weredog
18-12-07, 08:04 PM
Buffy/Angel has been conclusive at the end of S2, S3 and S7.

They had closure but it wasn't conclusive. Buffy says so in "Chosen": "I do... sometimes think that far ahead. Be a long time coming. Years if ever."


Buffy never has a relationship with Spike.

Yeah, I know, I was just responding to KingofCretins\ comment that some people still hope for Buffy and Spike to get back together. I didn't say this before but I don't think Buffy and Spike were ever together to begin with, but I can understand how some might interpret season 7 as a relationship. But that's a whole different discussion ;)

KingofCretins
18-12-07, 08:13 PM
Season 6 and Season 7 were relationships. Unhealthy, usually, but no less clear. If you were to take a poll around the house of the other occupants, "couple or not?", how many "not" votes would you expect?

Enisy
18-12-07, 08:50 PM
Unhealthy "usually"? Wasn't very long ago that you specified their "unhealthy" span (Wrecked to Seeing Red) and that's just 9 episodes out of the seasons' 44...

As for the "couple or not?" debate, I'll go ahead and post The Quote:

Joss Whedon: (about Spike and Angel) Now that I have [Buffy's] two ex-boyfriends in one room, it's the perfect time to make things even worse.

Anyway, I wouldn't mind Oz/Willow. It would indeed be interesting to watch a couple get back together after a break-up in Jossverse -- the closest we got to that was Angel/Buffy in I Will Remember You, but still not quite. I won't lie, though -- I expect a big outburst from the fandom if Willow goes back to boys, and Joss probably does, too.

KingofCretins
18-12-07, 08:56 PM
That was the stretch that it was so unhealthy, it was difficult to watch :) It was never exactly awash in wholesome mountain spring relationship water.

But, yeah, that's what I was saying about the couple thing -- the fact that they were a couple is pretty much objectively defined. They were as much "not a couple" in Season 6 and Season 7 as Buffy and Angel were "friends" in Season 3.

Enisy
18-12-07, 09:07 PM
That was the stretch that it was so unhealthy, it was difficult to watch :) It was never exactly awash in wholesome mountain spring relationship water.

Pout. But I won't get into a debate with you now. You've written fanfiction, you know how nice it can be under nice circumstances.

I have to admit that Willow's currently available het 'ships look much more promising than her slash 'ships. I mean, we already have Buffy/Satsu and Xander/Renee -- do we need another Main Character/New Slayer 'ship?

KingofCretins
18-12-07, 09:11 PM
No, we need to decide on Buffy/Xander or Xander/Willow and run with it :)

Although, as noted, it's possible that Xander/Dawn is the direction they're going to take it.

About Dawn... anyone else thinking that Kenny has nothing really to do with her becoming a giant?

modifiedblind
18-12-07, 09:16 PM
If Willow got into a relationship with Oz or Xander or any male would be a very disapppointing move and slap in the face to gay/lesbian fans. She is a lesbian, I mean she went as far as casting a spell to turn RJ into a chick so they could be together when she was under the love spell in 'Him', to have her revert back is just a mistake. I doubt very much Joss would do this, but its ridiculous to consider, IMO.

Wolfie Gilmore
18-12-07, 09:19 PM
No, we need to decide on Buffy/Xander or Xander/Willow and run with it :)

Although, as noted, it's possible that Xander/Dawn is the direction they're going to take it.

About Dawn... anyone else thinking that Kenny has nothing really to do with her becoming a giant?

I said a while back that maybe didn't think it was teh sex. Not sure what it might be though mind you.

modifiedblind
18-12-07, 09:20 PM
About Dawn, yeah they seem to be hitting us over the head with it being a thricewise, seems like theyd go in a completely direction with it. Personally Id like it to have something to do with her being the key.

KingofCretins
18-12-07, 09:22 PM
If Willow got into a relationship with Oz or Xander or any male would be a very disapppointing move and slap in the face to gay/lesbian fans. She is a lesbian, I mean she went as far as casting a spell to turn RJ into a chick so they could be together when she was under the love spell in 'Him', to have her revert back is just a mistake. I doubt very much Joss would do this, but its ridiculous to consider, IMO.

Here's the thing -- if that would be a "slap in the face" to lesbian fans, why wasn't the initial "gay now", which is apparently fait accompli, not a "slap in the face" to heterosexual fans in general, or, at the very least, to Willow/Oz fans?

I mean, the door swings both ways on respect for orientation, one assumes, and while there's that scene in "Him" -- which was mostly the funniest thing they could have done there -- there's plenty of textual support that she still digs guys just fine.

No offense, but this kind of reaction is what I had specifically in mind when I said there could be no reasonable complaint about it as bad sexual politics. Especially since Joss and the other writers have worked so hard to say that her being a lesbian at all was never about sexual politics.

Wolfie Gilmore
18-12-07, 09:29 PM
Joss and the other writers have worked so hard to say that her being a lesbian at all was never about sexual politics.

Well, they can say that as much as they like. I still think her being a lesbian was about sexual politics... and feel every square inch of my face slapped as a bisexual person. :D

And I'm kidding...but still! Why did they waste a perfectly good chance to show someone being bisexual and not a hyperslutty moral vacuum.

Ok, so, she went evil, not the best role model in the world. But at least she was evil in a non-skanky way ;)

*Wonders if anyone's written a paper on why bisexual!evil!Willow (doing Xander AND herself) is all slutty while gay!evil!Willow is far less sexualised...then realises it's probably because the former was a vampire...then gets back to topic*

I'm not fussed about the shipping in season 8. What I want to see focus on is a) the scooby relationships (including Buffy/Giles) and b) the mission, and how they all see their new roles (which we're getting, but more always gladly received).

Koos
18-12-07, 09:38 PM
Season 6 and Season 7 were relationships. Unhealthy, usually, but no less clear. If you were to take a poll around the house of the other occupants, "couple or not?", how many "not" votes would you expect?

I could see how one would call it a relationship in S6. But I wouldn't say it was a romantic relationship.

But in S7? Definitely not. There was no basis of trust to begin with after what happened in Seeing Red. Spike came back to offer his help and he stayed. He also needed Buffy's help in his dealings with his soul. They were dealing with issues, but I wouldn't call it a relationship.


Although, as noted, it's possible that Xander/Dawn is the direction they're going to take it.

I think this is the relationship Joss is rooting for. I always thought this was what Joss was aiming for if the show would process so far to the point that Dawn is an adult.

I also always thought this of Xander/Willow, so I could be wrong. But we all know why Joss never can do this. Oh well, I still have hopes for my favorite ship: Xander/Faith.

Enisy
18-12-07, 09:45 PM
I could see how one would call it a relationship in S6. But I wouldn't say it was a romantic relationship.

But in S7? Definitely not. There was no basis of trust to begin with after what happened in Seeing Red. Spike came back to offer his help and he stayed. He also needed Buffy's help in his dealings with his soul. They were dealing with issues, but I wouldn't call it a relationship.

Again with the quotage... emphasis mine:

Joss Whedon: To explore the idea of the Slayer fully and to see a very grown up and romantic and confusing relationship that isn't about power, but actually genuinely beautiful between two people in the form of Buffy and Spike.

This about Season 7 Spuffy, by the way.

modifiedblind
18-12-07, 10:10 PM
the reason i feel she should remain a lesbian is she's a mature adult wo has a clear idenity. In college you sort of form who you are and experiment, in Willows case it was both with magic and girlies. She loved Tara by the time Oz came back and he just left. yeah to figure out his wolf self but still he just left her! That left her free to explore Tara and her, had she been with Oz and cheated on him with Tara that would be a slap to Oz/Willow shippers and to the audience.

patxshand
19-12-07, 01:32 AM
the reason i feel she should remain a lesbian is she's a mature adult wo has a clear idenity. In college you sort of form who you are and experiment, in Willows case it was both with magic and girlies. She loved Tara by the time Oz came back and he just left. yeah to figure out his wolf self but still he just left her! That left her free to explore Tara and her, had she been with Oz and cheated on him with Tara that would be a slap to Oz/Willow shippers and to the audience.

I don't know. I always interpreted Willow as a bisexual woman, despite the whole "gay now!" incident. She was very much in love with Oz for quite some time--even during his guest spot in "New Moon Rising", during the first stages of her relationship with Tata--and I feel it would be sloppy writing to have her as a straight woman in love with a man and then change overnight to a lesbian in love with a woman. The process was gradual, and I feel that she would still have feelings, both romantic and sexual, towards Oz if he were to come back. That is just an example of her bisexuality to me.

KingofCretins
19-12-07, 01:40 AM
I think "New Moon Rising" is actually an insurmountable problem for the "gay now" interpretation. When did she actually become "gay now", when we see an unambiguous example of her romantically and sexually attracted to a man and a woman simultaneously? This was still something Tara had questions about in "Tough Love", 8 episodes after "gay now".

patxshand
19-12-07, 01:46 AM
I think "New Moon Rising" is actually an insurmountable problem for the "gay now" interpretation. When did she actually become "gay now", when we see an unambiguous example of her romantically and sexually attracted to a man and a woman simultaneously? This was still something Tara had questions about in "Tough Love", 8 episodes after "gay now".

Exactly. I believe that--and I intend no offense here--the "gay now" comment was simply playing to the gay/lesbian audience that wanted to see Willow as a lesbian. The canon of the series just makes her come off as bisexual, though.

KingofCretins
19-12-07, 01:48 AM
I'll do you one better, I think "gay now" has no intrinsic declarative quality about her fundamental character. She was shooting down Anya's paranoia about Xander, period. I'm always wary of people taking Buffy characters, *especially* the Scoobies, with this exactingly literal thinking about what they say, when they all speak so figuratively.

alexa
19-12-07, 02:02 AM
Well the writers did say that they wanted to portray reality (in the story of season 4?), where as some don't always declare or define their individuality of being either gay or straight.

I'm not sure if this did change later.. it seemed to. Not just with the "Hello? Gay now." comment in Triangle, but also in Hells Bells and The Long Way Home Part 3 "-and I don't truck with the stubbly crowd" - or something.

patxshand
19-12-07, 02:07 AM
Can anyone else not picture Willow saying "truck?"

KingofCretins
19-12-07, 02:12 AM
Be wary of the spam rule, Pat :)

But, no, I don't think that it was any more implausible than 16 and 17 year olds in 1998 just casually chatting about the Captain and Tenille. I never question the dialogue, really.

Nostalgia
19-12-07, 05:07 AM
I agree with you guys in that "New Moon Rising" is a definite hole in defense of Willow being completely gay now. She still had a strong connection with Oz at that point.. and although the episode portrays a focus on us feeling bad for Tara, after the car scene (one of my all time favorite scenes in the show mind you, and is what made me start loving this episode. Just putting it out there.), I think Willow truly felt that she wanted to get back with Oz, but had felt to guilt stricken for what she had done to Tara.. she was too good a person to embellish into her true feelings.

I also agree the "gay now" comment was also more of a joke to lighten the mood, rather than something to be taken on a literal base. I think another hole in the gay-only theory is her comment in "Help," when she tells Xander that she is over him. Not because she is gay, but that she is indeed not interested in their relationship anymore. I could perfectly see Willow in a heterosexual relationship again and not be offended nor surprised.

KingofCretins
19-12-07, 05:11 AM
She also has that lovely, wry smile with Xander in "The Gift" -- "you couldn't have figured that out in 10th grade?"

Think about that question... if it's an honest question, the implication is that if he had figured that out in 10th grade, they would *be together right then*, isn't it? Similar idea when she made the formalwear comment in "Hell's Bells". You don't mention it if you didn't think it.

Weredog
19-12-07, 07:52 AM
I think Willow truly felt that she wanted to get back with Oz, but had felt to guilt stricken for what she had done to Tara.. she was too good a person to embellish into her true feelings.

Whoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooa! :eek:
Don't ever say that in the presence of Joss Whedon!
Willow did not chose Tara because she felt bad for 'teasing' her. She chose her because she loved her more than Oz. She tells Oz herself that she's happy with Tara: she can't explain it. The writers made that very clear.
How can you interpret that otherwise?!

(I'm sorry, but I'm really dumbfounded that you think that! lol :xd )

patxshand
19-12-07, 07:58 AM
Willow, at that point, probably loved Tara more. While one can argue that she may have just been scared about Oz leaving again (I wouldn't), there isn't really any way one can say that she was not in love with Tara when she chose her in "New Moon Rising." However, it is important to note that Willow was also undoubtedly in love with Oz in that episode. To me, that proves beyond any reasonable doubt that she is bisexual.

Weredog
19-12-07, 08:03 AM
Willow, at that point, probably loved Tara more. While one can argue that she may have just been scared about Oz leaving again (I wouldn't), there isn't really any way one can say that she was not in love with Tara when she chose her in "New Moon Rising." However, it is important to note that Willow was also undoubtedly in love with Oz in that episode. To me, that proves beyond any reasonable doubt that she is bisexual.

Oh I know that Oz has a reserved spot in Willow's heart, but I don't understand how some people, like Nostalgia, believe that she "truly felt that she wanted to get back with Oz, but had felt to guilt stricken for what she had done to Tara."
That's why I really hope he elaborates.

vampmogs
19-12-07, 09:46 AM
Oh I know that Oz has a reserved spot in Willow's heart, but I don't understand how some people, like Nostalgia, believe that she "truly felt that she wanted to get back with Oz, but had felt to guilt stricken for what she had done to Tara."
That's why I really hope he elaborates.

Yeah I don't agree with that either. Breaking it to Tara would have been just as painful as it was breaking the news to Oz. Either way people were going to get hurt, I think Buffy said something to the same effect. IMO she made the choice she wanted to make, doesn't mean I'd like to see them back together though.

KingofCretins
19-12-07, 01:08 PM
I think the most significant fact here is that, in Willow's entire emotional struggle between the two, the one factor never once raised as a reason to go one way or another? Gender. That Oz was a man and Tara a woman wasn't part of the analysis.


WILLOW: No, there's "woo" and, and "hoo." But there's "uh-oh," and... "why
now?" And... it's complicated.
BUFFY: Why complicated?
WILLOW: (sighs, steels herself) It's complicated... because of Tara.
BUFFY: (frowns) You mean Tara has a crush on Oz? No.
(The clue-by-four hits Buffy.)
BUFFY: Oh!
(Willow gives a nervous smile.)
(Buffy stands up.)
BUFFY: Oh. Um... well... that's great. You know, I mean, I think Tara's a,
a really great girl, Will.
WILLOW: She is. And... there's something between us. It-it wasn't something
I was looking for. It's just powerful. And it's totally different from what
Oz and I have.

The 'outing' in this discussion is almost incidental. Even Buffy's reaction is only slightly more awkward than it would have been if Willow had admitted that she and Xander were having another fling, I think. The Not-Oz could have been anyone and this scene could have worked. And, there you see, it's different from what she and Oz *have*, not had.

modifiedblind
19-12-07, 04:33 PM
besides willows sexuality *cough* shes a lesbian *cough* :-) this issue reveals some of what happened the passed year right? anyone think they might explain kennedy's mystical death? and, a xander/dawn relationship? anyone else get the creeps besides me? *shrug* that relationship feels brother/sistery to me. although in 'Him' he defintely finds dawn attractive at the bronze, she did look hot in that outfit.

Koos
19-12-07, 07:41 PM
Again with the quotage... emphasis mine:

Joss Whedon: To explore the idea of the Slayer fully and to see a very grown up and romantic and confusing relationship that isn't about power, but actually genuinely beautiful between two people in the form of Buffy and Spike.

This about Season 7 Spuffy, by the way.

That is NOT what I saw. If this was a relationship than Buffy was married to Xander. I guess the conflict and issues that Buffy had with Giles was also part of a genuitinely beautiful but conflicted romantic relationship between the two. Not to mention the conflicted hot lesbian relationship between Buffy and Faith, which still hasn't been concluded.

Nostalgia
20-12-07, 06:13 AM
Whoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooa! :eek:
Don't ever say that in the presence of Joss Whedon!
Willow did not chose Tara because she felt bad for 'teasing' her. She chose her because she loved her more than Oz. She tells Oz herself that she's happy with Tara: she can't explain it. The writers made that very clear.
How can you interpret that otherwise?!

(I'm sorry, but I'm really dumbfounded that you think that! lol :xd )

I know it's a controversial theory (sorry to all you Tara/Willow fans out there! Obviously you being a huge one ;)).


4.19 New Moon Rising
WILLOW: Full moon, but-but how? I mean (smiling) you did it! How, how did
you do it? Where did you go?
OZ: It's a long story.
WILLOW: (looks up again, then down, smiling) Oh my god, Oz!
(She hugs him. He holds her and closes his eyes. Willow pulls back. Not
smiling any more.)



Maybe it's just me seeing things in a different light (this all purely based on opinion), but I always felt this scene demonstrated the desire for Oz that still existed in the back of her mind. As Kings perfectly pointed out, the fact that it is between different genders is irrelevant, the important part is that it represents that perfect scene that happens to everyone.. where you start to fall for someone else and as soon as you do, your ex comes back. As much as you are starting to love this person, seeing them come back evokes all these memories again.. and you let you subconscious (where I believe Oz was still living) come to play.

At that point she was escaping reality. She wanted to be with Oz again for those split seconds, and in my opinion Tara was completely erased. Yet, reality settles in. Willow realizes that she cannot just switch around on someone like that.. especially when building such a strong friendship enfolds into a love relationship.

I think the car scene does it for me though:


(Cut to Oz and Willow sitting in Oz's van.)
WILLOW: This thing looks pretty good, considering you drove it overseas.
(Oz doesn't look at her.)
OZ: Well, it broke down outside of Mexico, and I traded my bass to have it
fixed and garaged.
(Pause.)
OZ: I shouldn't have come back now.... I just thought I'd changed.
WILLOW: You have changed. (Smiles) You stopped the wolf from coming out. I
saw it.
OZ: But I couldn't look at you. (He still can't.) I mean, it turns out...
the one thing that brings it out in me is you... which falls under the
heading of ironic in my book.
WILLOW: It was my fault. I upset you.
(He finally looks at her.)
OZ: Well, so we're safe then, (sarcastic) cause you'll never do that again.
(Willow tries to look amused.)
OZ: But... you're happy?
WILLOW: (smiles) I am. I can't explain it-
OZ: It may be safer for both os us if you don't.
(Willow looks sad.)
WILLOW: I missed you, Oz. I wrote you so many letters... but I didn't have
any place to send them, you know?
(Pause.)
WILLOW: I couldn't live like that.
OZ: It was stupid to think that you'd just be... waiting.
WILLOW: I was waiting. I feel like some part of me will always be waiting
for you. Like if I'm old and blue-haired, and I turn the corner in Istanbul
and there you are, I won't be surprised. Because... you're with me, you know?
OZ: I know. (Pause) But now is not that time, I guess.
WILLOW:(shakes her head) No.
(They look at each other.)
WILLOW: What are you gonna do?
OZ: I think I better take off.
WILLOW: When?
OZ: Pretty much now.
(Willow nods. She's teary again. Oz leans over and they hug.)

Willow concern for Oz, and her tears that begin to flow again just make believe that she wished that she he had never left. Yes, she was beginning to love someone else, but it's indicated that she still had feelings for Oz even at that point. I do agree that Willow and Tara's relationship exceeded her and Oz's relationship in terms of which one was stronger, but that wasn't evident until farther in season 5. There's a reason in "New Moon Rising," in that Tara feels shunned and that's because as soon as Oz comes back, Willow resorts to her old ways. She wants to be with Oz again.. it's as if nothing had ever changed. It's the classic ex-factor so to speak.. in that it's hard for her to not see Oz even with a starting relationship and not want those feelings back. Tara and Willow weren't far enough in their relationship yet, so I don't know how you could say that she loved her more than Oz at that point.

Weredog
20-12-07, 07:52 PM
I don't want to turn this thread into a fan-fiction but what potential storyline can there be for Willow/Oz in Season 8?

Because that's my issue: I can't see any.

I can't think of them fighting and breaking up again. In my opinion, the relationship has already explored everything it was able to, thus served its purpose.

So I'm curious to know what some people foresee with Willow/Oz.

KingofCretins
20-12-07, 07:57 PM
There's more to relationships than sleeping together and then having fights and a break-up. There is a helluva lot more story to tell with Oz, though, whether Willow is romantically a part of it or not. Bring back Oz! Bring back full-wolf-control Oz, while you're at it.

Weredog
20-12-07, 09:24 PM
There's more to relationships than sleeping together and then having fights and a break-up. There is a helluva lot more story to tell with Oz, though, whether Willow is romantically a part of it or not. Bring back Oz! Bring back full-wolf-control Oz, while you're at it.

I'm not arguing against the return of Oz. I'm arguing against the return of Willow/Oz. I can't imagine what their relationship could be if they got back together in season 8 because I don't know what else is left to explore with these two as a couple. Let's see what new rabbits the writers could pull out:
First Date: Already done.
First Kiss: Already done.
Sex: Already done.
Kiss and Makeup: Already done.
"I love you": Already done.
Infidelity: Already done. Twice.

Honestly, I'm getting tired of repeating myself but it seems that I have to cause I keep getting the same responses. The only question I'm asking is what is left for the writers to explore with Oz and Willow as a couple. Not Oz as a character. Not Willow as a character. Not Willow and a new love interest as a couple. I mean Willow and Oz as a couple.

vampmogs
20-12-07, 10:02 PM
Willow and Oz would be two very different people from the ones who dated such a long time ago. Basically they'd have to get to know eachother all over again in the relationship, it'd be kind of like starting afresh with only the stability that there is a knowing they already care deeply for eachother. It'd be interesting to see who has the power in the relatioship, who is more dominant ect. IMO Oz always seemed like the thing that grounded Willow when she was a nervous wreck, can't see it being the same way now.

Phoenix
21-12-07, 03:07 AM
I agree with vampmogs, they are very different people now from when they were a couple. It would be interesting to see how they would be together now. However, I'm still hoping that when Oz returns, him and Willow won't be a couple. imo they would just be better as close friends :)

ThePoet's<3
21-12-07, 04:05 AM
There's more to relationships than sleeping together and then having fights and a break-up. There is a helluva lot more story to tell with Oz, though, whether Willow is romantically a part of it or not. Bring back Oz! Bring back full-wolf-control Oz, while you're at it.

Oh absolutely!! **joins in with KoC - "Bring back OZ!" "Bring back OZ!"***

OZ in control of his wolf would be an awesome soldier to have at Slayer Inc. - especially with Twilight wanting to end all magicks - creatures and all.

Where I could really see an OZ story is perhaps a crossover arc for Buffy and Angel! Throw in some Willow and Faith and I see the potential for some great fights and plotty goodness!

Reading the transcripts posted here of the scenes between Willow and Buffy and Willow and OZ - I have to say - TPTB left lots of room in those lines for a Willow/OZ reunion should they want it to occur...
The question is going to be how much the character has grown from being with Tara to being with Kennedy. Why not move her into a relationship with another guy?

Still all the same - I would love to see a Willow/Oz reunion - heck - I just want to see Oz again!

Weredog
21-12-07, 05:09 AM
I agree with vampmogs, they are very different people now from when they were a couple.

What? I've been saying that since forever. Are my posts being deleted? :p :s


However, I'm still hoping that when Oz returns, him and Willow won't be a couple. imo they would just be better as close friends :)

That's exactly what I'm praying for.

KingofCretins
21-12-07, 05:20 AM
Excellent banner, Weredog :)

I don't care if Willow actually *does* get involved with Oz, I just don't buy the idea that he and Xander are both magically out of the dating pool for her, if not any other men, just because her overall tendencies changed. She's been in love with them both. I think that trumps any label she's adopted. She loves who she loves.

I gotta say, I really am hoping we get *some* kind of 'shipping subtext for anything that might be in play amongst the major characters during this issue. It's the right character-driven piece for it. A single line of dialogue in either of the major conversations could indicate whether there's a Buffy/Xander track, a Xander/Dawn track, a Buffy/Willow track (doubt it) or a Xander/Willow track, or possibly, just by its absence, tell us if there are no bold new 'shipping directions coming this season.

Phoenix
21-12-07, 12:59 PM
What? I've been saying that since forever. Are my posts being deleted? :p :s


lol sorry about that, I was just randomly reading posts and saw vampmogs' one! but there ya go, i agree with you too! :)

This issue seems to be taking forever to come out. Seems much more longer than the others! Although thats probably just because this issue has been leading up to be insanely awesome :D

Weredog
21-12-07, 06:53 PM
This issue seems to be taking forever to come out. Seems much more longer than the others! Although thats probably just because this issue has been leading up to be insanely awesome :D

I know! I've been anticipating this even before "No Future for You, Part 4" was released. And I think everyone else is too 'cause look at this thread: we're on page 6! That's excluding all the other "Anywhere But Here" threads, so clearly we all have opinions about this issue even prior to its release.

January 2 can not come soon enough....

KingofCretins
21-12-07, 07:34 PM
I wonder if they're going to shrink Dawn back during these two oneshots. I can't remember if they said that she would still be a gaint during "Wolves at the Gate". I am not one of the people that's been really against Giant Dawn, but I do think they need to either do something with that story or just go ahead and move on from it. If she really does tell Xander what happened, it would make sense that Willow can fix it in "A Beautiful Sunset".

vampmogs
21-12-07, 09:07 PM
I think they hinted that Dawn may be a giant for a while. But I suspect if it is going to be revealed to Xander why she is a giant the plot will move more onto now we know what happened, how do we fix her? I'm assuming that whatever changed Dawn is either too embarrassing for her or she has done something bad which resulted in her change that she is perhaps to ashamed to tell in public. Or perhaps even, she isn't telling anyone because she hoped being a giant would give her some sort of attention and was basically grasping at anything to get people to notice her.

Weredog
21-12-07, 09:41 PM
I doubt Willow will cure Dawn in this issue since it seems that Willow will be busy with Buffy "reflecting on their past" (whatever the hell that means?!:p)
I do hope that Dawn'll be cured in "A Beautiful Sunset" so that she can be with the gang in Japan normal-sized.
Like some other poster previously said, it would be quite the tongue-in-cheek if Giant Dawn traveled through the streets of Tokyo.

modifiedblind
22-12-07, 06:24 PM
Saying she loves who she loves doesnt mean shes bi-sexual. She loved Oz and Xander, she moved on, she found her identity in college with Tara, being with women. After Tara she went onto another woman. Kennedy. Her tendencies have changed from men to women, not from men to women to men on a whim. She even went as far as trying to change RJ into a woman to be with her. She was under a love spell and decided to change him, because he had a penis and she couldnt be with him otherwise! To me this screams lesbian. Ps: I do hope Oz comes back.

KingofCretins
22-12-07, 06:32 PM
If she was always a lesbian and just didn't notice or whatever, then it invalidates the idea that she was ever genuinely in love with Oz or Xander on its face. At best, she was subconsciously just trying to convince herself that she liked their nasty boy parts. I call BS on that, partly because it sucks, and partly because it's not playing fair with the audience, since it's not like it was part of the planned arc for her character.

Basically, there's a obviously built-for-laughs plot device in "Him", and a throwaway line to Anya in "Triangle", that stand as the *entirety* of the weight that she is suddenly "ew, boys" with her preferences.

Rather than the false premise that anyone is suggesting "men to women to men on a whim", how about the logical inference that it changed from "men to both"?

Weredog
22-12-07, 07:27 PM
I'm very accepting to have Willow engage in a relationship with a man. And I agree that the "gay now" moments from "Triangle" and "Him" were just for laughs. But now that that's brought up, what about "Tough Love":

TARA: It's not that. I worry, sometimes. You're, you're changing so much, so fast. I don't know where you're heading.
WILLOW: Where I'm heading?
TARA: I'm saying everything wrong.
WILLOW: No, I think you're being pretty clear. This isn't about the witchcraft. It's about the other changes in my life.
TARA: I trust you. I just ... (looks down) I don't know where I'm gonna fit in ... in your life when...
WILLOW: When ... I change back? Yeah, this is a college thing, just a, a little experimentation before I get over the thrill and head back to boys' town. You think that?
TARA: Should I?
WILLOW: I'm really sorry that I didn't establish my lesbo street cred before I got into this relationship. You're the only woman I've ever fallen in love with, so ... how on earth could you ever take me seriously?

Now if Willow were to date a man in the future, would this not just reinforce Tara's concern?
I'm not sure what to think about this at the moment.

KingofCretins
22-12-07, 07:32 PM
Being bisexual isn't the same thing as being a LUG (lesbian until graduation), which was what Tara was concerned with. Tara was concerned that Willow was just a 'tourist', and once it was time to be "serious" about her life, she'd ditch Tara and pretend it never happened.

Willow assured her that she wasn't just using Tara as a lifestyle accessory, but that neither raises nor answers the question of whether she still could be in a relationship with a guy.

She was affected by Dracula; she was perfectly willing to paint salacious images of herself with Angel and with Riley to prod at Buffy; she thinks Daniel Craig is hot. Are these things that men and women do when they are completely out of bounds to that gender?

BAF
24-12-07, 05:13 PM
Advance review of issue 10.MAJOR spoilers.


http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=140704

Buffy the Vampire Slayer #10
From: Dark Horse Comics
Written By: Joss Whedon
Art By: Cliff Richards, Andy Owens
Review by Tim Janson

After penning the first five issues of the new Buffy series, series creator Joss Whendon returns for two more issues beginning with issue number ten. Also back for this issue is longtime Buffy artist Cliff Richards. Together, the pair deliver a unique and off-beat story, self-contained and one that you could pickup and read without necessarily having read the previous issues. Buffy and Willow are soaring through the skies…well, Willow is soaring while Buffy is hanging on for her dear life. They arrive at a small countryside cottage, the lair of the demon Sephrilian. The cottage is guarded by what Willow refers to as a “Minder” who watches over the cottage.

The cottage is an unstable reality; a time-space dimensional anomaly, which is MUCH larger inside and it, appears from the outside. They’ve some seeking the aid of the demon in their coming war. This demon is able to show Buffy and Willow a possible future reality and all is definitely NOT good. Buffy and Willow play a little game of fantasy as Buffy dreams up encounters with the new James Bond, Daniel Craig, and later with Christian Bale. Buffy is shown that she is betrayed by someone very close to her while Willow reveals her insecurity over her new relationship with Kennedy and why she’s kept her away from Buffy. The implications are that Willow indirectly blames Buffy for Tara being murdered by Warren and doesn’t want Kennedy to suffer the same fate. While their futures are uncertain, the demon has given them several disheartening events to consider.

While toned somewhat darkly, the story still does manage to hold on to the usual Whedon witty banter between Buffy and Willow as well as between Xander and Dawn as Xander does his best to make Dawn feel normal even though she’s stuck in giant-size. Dawm as a secret of her own that she reveals to Xander about how she came to be in this condition. It was great to see Richards back, even if it does appear to be for only one issue for now. The issues written by Whedon have such a distinctly different feel than those written by anyone else…or it at least seems that way. I wonder if I convince myself of that just because I see his name in the credits but he certainly has a great feel for the characters and all their idiosyncrasies than any other writer. As long as Whedon continues to show up periodically and lend his talents to the series, it should enjoy another long run.





Very nice!!



Daniel Craig?? Yuck. I was rooting for Hugh Jackman for Bond. I see Craig and I think - "Road to Perdition". Buffy... So disappointed... However - if we 'Shippers want to grab at any thread that's out there - Craig is BLOND and he has abs like - maybe - perhaps - SPIKE??? HHmmm... Maybe I'm starting to see Buffy's crush-point...



Two can play that game.:lol: Since this review reveals that Buffy also has a fantasy about Christian Bale who is darked haired and known for brooding roles like Batman then can you say perhaps ANGEL who has been compared to a lot as Batman himself. The Dark Avenger.lol


The stuff about Willow blaming Tara's death on Buffy is very interesting as is Buffy learning that she will be betrayed.

Koos
24-12-07, 06:51 PM
Buffy and Willow play a little game of fantasy as Buffy dreams up encounters with the new James Bond, Daniel Craig, and later with Christian Bale.

I have compared Craig with James Marsters more than once, when I saw him the first time in Lara Croft. Blond, much better in shape than he was in Bond IMO, and playing the stereotype (equals boring) bad boy. And of course both Buffy and Lara Croft are the leading kick-ass ladies.
I really like Daniel Craig though, and I do think he's a great Bond.

Angel is too obvious not be compared with Batman. Though Faith also did good on impression on Batgirl.

modifiedblind
25-12-07, 10:48 PM
i figured i was done with the willow is gay! no shes bi arguement but alas... :-) anyway, im gay and i find chicks attractive occasionally (aly hannigan in the halloween episode and just in general, niki from heroes, jennifer garner :-) just to name a few and establish my 'knows when chicks are hot cred' although i wouldnt go as far as to date a girl now, i have in high school. gays know when the other sex is hot it doesnt mean we'd bone said person or sex. i just think having her date a man there would be some fan outrage and confusion. and before she dated a guy theyd have to address her relationship with kennedy first.

vampmogs
26-12-07, 06:09 AM
i just think having her date a man there would be some fan outrage and confusion. and before she dated a guy theyd have to address her relationship with kennedy first.

I don't think there is need for outrage, the same way fans shouldn't have been outraged over Willow's sudden turn to liking women instead of men to fans who had only known her as straight. The people who were outraged was called 'morons' by Joss I believe. In all honesty I'd think the same of anyone who took it offensively if Willow dated a guy again. If it wasn't the case, it'd kind of be like saying everyone who knew Willow as straight don't matter and they should just accept she turned gay but anyone who liked Willow as gay do matter and Joss couldn't possibly step on their toes.

modifiedblind
26-12-07, 03:26 PM
first that fray comment was supposed to be a new thread, ive been using my phone to comment and i screwed that up, and i dont know how to erase it or move it to a new thread.. sorry. about joss saying people shouldnt be outraged about willows relationship with tara and being gay, he said this because people acted asif they were blindsided by it, when in reality it was a gradual thing, the spells they were doing were obviously sexual, it was subtle but done well. if willow was with a man...i cant do it, i was going to say id hope the story would make sense but it never would!

vampmogs
27-12-07, 12:42 AM
first that fray comment was supposed to be a new thread, ive been using my phone to comment and i screwed that up, and i dont know how to erase it or move it to a new thread.. sorry. about joss saying people shouldnt be outraged about willows relationship with tara and being gay, he said this because people acted asif they were blindsided by it, when in reality it was a gradual thing, the spells they were doing were obviously sexual, it was subtle but done well. if willow was with a man...i cant do it, i was going to say id hope the story would make sense but it never would!

I'm not sure if you can with your mobile but usually you just go to the edit button and then you'll see an option to delete, click that, it'll come up with something else making sure you want to delete and then click that :)

Actually he said they shouldn't be outraged because it was two women. A lot of the people outraged were people who had a promblem with homosexuality, which is why Joss called them morons. I almost think it'd be hypercritical for people to turn around and say "you can't make Willow be with another man because that is offending us as gay people" when they expected everyone who had always known her character as straight to be open to the idea. It'd be double standards. It really shouldn't matter to people wether she is with a man or a female when the character has in the past already been with both.

Nostalgia
31-12-07, 07:32 PM
Buffy and Willow play a little game of fantasy as Buffy dreams up encounters with the new James Bond, Daniel Craig, and later with Christian Bale. Buffy is shown that she is betrayed by someone very close to her while Willow reveals her insecurity over her new relationship with Kennedy and why she’s kept her away from Buffy. The implications are that Willow indirectly blames Buffy for Tara being murdered by Warren and doesn’t want Kennedy to suffer the same fate. While their futures are uncertain, the demon has given them several disheartening events to consider.

Wow.. this issue is going to be quite powerful after all..


Looks like Joss isn't holding back too long from addressing the "man on the inside" after all.. This is kind of scary now that I'm thinking about how it says that it is someone "very" close to her. I can't imagine it being Xander.. but has anyone thought about Dawn? Maybe Dawn is trying to get attention, and doesn't realize what she is even dealing with? Something to that effect..


The other thing is.. Willow blaming Buffy for Tara's death??! How does that pan out? Buffy wasn't even around to kill Warren, and he flew away before anything could even be done.


Anyway.... I cannot wait for this episode.

KingofCretins
31-12-07, 09:51 PM
Not reading the spoilers, but apparently "Anywhere But Here" will not be released until Friday due to the holiday. Thought you'd all want to know. I'll still be going to the comic store on Wednesday to be sure, but be prepared for having to wait a couple extra days.

BAF
31-12-07, 10:29 PM
The other thing is.. Willow blaming Buffy for Tara's death??! How does that pan out? Buffy wasn't even around to kill Warren, and he flew away before anything could even be done.


Anyway.... I cannot wait for this episode.


Tara got killed by accident while Warren was trying to shoot Buffy.If Warren hadn't shown up gunning for Buffy,odds are Tara would still be alive.

Weredog
01-01-08, 09:50 PM
Buffy and Willow play a little game of fantasy as Buffy dreams up encounters with the new James Bond, Daniel Craig, and later with Christian Bale. Buffy is shown that she is betrayed by someone very close to her while Willow reveals her insecurity over her new relationship with Kennedy and why she’s kept her away from Buffy. The implications are that Willow indirectly blames Buffy for Tara being murdered by Warren and doesn’t want Kennedy to suffer the same fate. While their futures are uncertain, the demon has given them several disheartening events to consider.


What? I'm sorry but I'll be pist if that's true. That would not be progressive at all. And it would totally contradict Willow's self-guilt in "The Killer in Me."
I hope what you found is nothing but a false rumour cause I'm expecting bigger tricks up Joss' sleeve.

modifiedblind
02-01-08, 02:53 AM
Friday!! I Hope Not Ill Go Crazy...

Gabrielle
02-01-08, 06:34 PM
What? I'm sorry but I'll be pist if that's true. That would not be progressive at all. And it would totally contradict Willow's self-guilt in "The Killer in Me."
I hope what you found is nothing but a false rumour cause I'm expecting bigger tricks up Joss' sleeve.

Hi everyone,

Willow blaming Buffy for Tara's death has nothing to do with her self-guilt from "the killer in me" IMO.
If I understood correctly what issue 10 is (partly) about, Willow blames Buffy for Tara being actually killed (kinda in her place as Buffy was the one targeted)
In "the killer in me", Willow blames herself for letting Tara go, for beggining to heal from the pain of her loss.
I don't see how or why those points would be contradictory at all.

EndersWrath
02-01-08, 10:34 PM
Buffy is shown that she is betrayed by someone very close to her

Hmm. I almost sure that they are gonna use Giles for this to further Buffy from him. Though I am also thinking that Twilight could be behind all of this to further that tie between Giles and Buffy, maybe he is gonna do something that should Giles be close to her, that she would be able to fix if he were around. Dunno...

ThePoet's<3
03-01-08, 04:49 AM
Yes unfortunately no comic till Friday... Due to holidays. GGRrrrr...

Do we think this betrayal is deliberate or do we think it's something unavoidable?? Seems Giles has already "betrayed" her a bit working with Faith. I still think Satsu is the mole in MacCastle. Somehow I don't believe it was a deliberate betrayal but perhaps one to protect Buffy.

Weredog
03-01-08, 05:16 AM
Willow blaming Buffy for Tara's death has nothing to do with her self-guilt from "the killer in me" IMO.
If I understood correctly what issue 10 is (partly) about, Willow blames Buffy for Tara being actually killed (kinda in her place as Buffy was the one targeted)
In "the killer in me", Willow blames herself for letting Tara go, for beggining to heal from the pain of her loss.
I don't see how or why those points would be contradictory at all.

Oh okay yeah you're right they are two different issues. I confused them for being the same. Um, I'm a Buffy fan?

So now we got that straight, why the hell does Willow blame Buffy for Warren's misfire? I mean, there is only person to blame and that's Warren, and shot got that pretty covered ("Oh, you mean instead of killing my best friend, you killed my girlfriend.") How was it Buffy's fault? And if Willow is so worried about Kennedy's fate, why didn't she prevent Kennedy from fighting demons in graveyards and facing vampire armies in the Hellmouth? She doesn't mind if Buffy leads Kennedy to that, but if a nerd has beef with Buffy: watch out, Kennedy!
I don't understand the logic behind that. That's why I'm praying it's a rumour.

vampmogs
03-01-08, 12:15 PM
Oh okay yeah you're right they are two different issues. I confused them for being the same. Um, I'm a Buffy fan?

So now we got that straight, why the hell does Willow blame Buffy for Warren's misfire? I mean, there is only person to blame and that's Warren, and shot got that pretty covered ("Oh, you mean instead of killing my best friend, you killed my girlfriend.") How was it Buffy's fault? And if Willow is so worried about Kennedy's fate, why didn't she prevent Kennedy from fighting demons in graveyards and facing vampire armies in the Hellmouth? She doesn't mind if Buffy leads Kennedy to that, but if a nerd has beef with Buffy: watch out, Kennedy!
I don't understand the logic behind that. That's why I'm praying it's a rumour.

Well the rumour did state 'inadvertently' blames Buffy for Tara's death. I'm not sure even Willow will realise this until a little self reflection. Yeah it was Warren's fault but deep down Willow may think that people close to Buffy die and she doesn't want that for someone else she cares about. Tara died because Warren came into that garden looking to have Buffy killed, of course it wasn't her fault but it is the consequence of being around her. It is a bit different in season seven because Kennedy's entire reason for being there was to be around Buffy, to be protected by Buffy. Now that battle is done and the dust has cleared, Willow may feel a little uneasy about the whole thing, probably not realising even herself why. I don't think this will be a case of Willow being angry at Buffy or anything, just something she can't help but feel.

modifiedblind
03-01-08, 03:21 PM
i called 4 different comic book stores and got nothing, has anyone gotten it? ps i hate holiday related delays. :-)

Wolfie Gilmore
04-01-08, 02:12 PM
Yay, just got my issue - in comic stores today, kids! Had a very quick read through and my thoughts-without-thinking are...

- Tina Fey! That is actually going to qualify as my favourite Buffy reference since "time went all David Lynch". Not only is Tina Fey the Fonz of AWESOME, it shows that Joss actually knows how to write lesbians. Cos...well, in terms of subtle gay icons, doesn't get more on the money than that. :) How long before the first Willow/Tina Fey fanfic? I'm betting someone's already written it...

- Willow thinks too much. Seriously. Her subconscious twists itself in some seriously labyrinthine knots.

-Skanky Dawn! Hee! Loved that whole bit with Xander and Dawn. Still not sure what happened though, did Kenny do it as revenge?? Or are we not supposed to know what happened yet?

-the bit about Robin having a brief respite from her horrorshow due to Buffy and Willow's visit was very touching (in terms of the real-life basis of the story, and how the reader featured in teh story used Buffy as an escape from her illness).

KingofCretins
04-01-08, 04:42 PM
Got a lot of thoughts on this issue, and first I want to spend some time on who Buffy is now and what her life has become.

The startling revelation that Buffy, with apparently no real reservations, turned her Slayers into thieves, just astounded me. Breaking into safes and knocking out guards? And even more astounding, she was right in the middle of lying her ass off to Willow about it before her own involvement was shown. Buffy has obviously changed a good deal since Sunnydale, from being the woman who couldn't charge for being a Slayer, who felt guilty about implying that saving the bank employee's life should suffice for a loan. Now, she apparently *is* charging for Slaying, because to steal in this fashion basically implies that she has come to a way of thinking that what she does is important enough to deserve some... latitude with the law of the land. Rather like a certain Slayer who reasoned that they were entitled to rip off a sporting goods store, actually.

Buffy's new role obviously comes with a lot of pressure, and we're shown that she struggles with things as early as 8.01. But, to have taken this kind of license from her new responsibilities when there were clearly other ways they could have gone for revenue is a pretty dramatic shortcoming. Really, this puts all kinds of things in a new context. For instance, the whole thing in "Damage", and Andrew coming over like a mob captain pushing Angel around and the idea that Buffy wouldn't trust him, once arguably out of character, now could just as easily be explained as Buffy having a new outlook in which she really is the last word on how to get things done.

And what's happened to her relationships? We've found out that Dawn thinks of Willow as her mother figure, not Buffy, in 8.04. We learned that she and Faith clearly hadn't gained much ground after all in 8.08. And we learned that Giles doesn't think enough of her to include her in his plans at all in 8.09.

And now, in this issue, we find out that Willow apparently thinks of Buffy as a chore, a burden in some way. I don't think they can ever really be *close* like they were after what we found out. Not only does Willow apparently resent Buffy for Tara's death*, she and Kennedy are clearly still together, and the "time off" they are taking is actually... Buffy. And Willow's desire not to expose her relationship to Buffy or the damage that can be done to it by working with Buffy. This reminds me a bit of "Innocence", where Willow tells Xander things aren't okay between them but acknowledges they have to work together.

It appears that the only people still close to Buffy, that really still believe in her, are Xander and her Slayers. And, of course, that brings us to the betrayal. I'm getting more and more annoyed at the idea that this will be Xander for exactly this reason -- he's basically the only established character she hasn't lost in terms of that real closeness. I have a whole rant if it does go that way. I'm personally hoping that the betrayal may have something to do with who Twilight is (I'm hoping Riley), and that the man on the inside is Renee with the same connection I assumed there was. The good news? We might find out who the traitor is in 8.11 "A Beautiful Sunset", since Buffy's outfit on that cover and in the panel of this issue are very similar -- perhaps the traitor is revealed in the course of Buffy getting her ass kicked by Twilight, which is another reason I'm hoping this is about Twilight's identity more than whoever the mole is.

As for Dawn's story -- I like it. It's unexpected, and it's very real. She wasn't drunk, she wasn't under a spell, she was just horny and really immature. It reminds me of what the whole Giant Dawn thing is really a metaphor for. Not that Dawn needs attention and is calling out for it. Much simpler, the metaphor is that she's a Big Girl Now.

I love the interplay between her and Xander, and I am almost ready to 'ship them. I can't say it was a scene without such vibes.

The game fantasies were wonderful, but really do date the series -- how long has "30 Rock" been on, anyway? Fall of 2006?

I was actually happy to see Kennedy, and even more surprisingly, I'm happy that they are together. I think Joss may have decided to establish that simply because of all the snarky rejoicing at the idea that they had broken up. Regardless, I'm willing to give her a chance to be a regular again. And Cliff Richards just had Iyari Limon locked in perfectly.

*If Willow was going to resent Buffy for Tara, I would have thought it more likely to be resentment of the Spike relationship, Buffy's overall disaffection, and her failure to have dealt with the trio more quickly and effectively, as she would have if she'd gotten over her crap earlier.

The other thing I want to talk about is Joss' influences and changes since Season 7.

"Firefly" -- I think his work in "Firefly", which is apparently his favorite stuff, is affecting how he writes these characters now. What is Buffy the thief if not Malcolm Reynolds? And what is the relationship between her and her Slayers if not the relationship between Nandi and the men and women at the Heart of Gold?

"The Dark Tower" -- I don't know if he's been reading it, but a lot of the way that the 'end of magic' arc is setting up connects to "Dark Tower" mythology.

"Veronica Mars" -- he says the show is better than Buffy anyway, and I'm picking up on some more noirish tones to Season 8 than were there before.

Wolfie Gilmore
04-01-08, 05:02 PM
Got a lot of thoughts on this issue, and first I want to spend some time on who Buffy is now and what her life has become.

The startling revelation that Buffy, with apparently no real reservations, turned her Slayers into thieves, just astounded me.

I'm not sure what to make of it. It seemed to play more as comedy than anything else... like Anya pulling a heist in "Him". Going to read it again to absorb properly.


And what's happened to her relationships? We've found out that Dawn thinks of Willow as her mother figure, not Buffy, in 8.04. We learned that she and Faith clearly hadn't gained much ground after all in 8.08. And we learned that Giles doesn't think enough of her to include her in his plans at all in 8.09.

I'm a bit puzzled re Giles...it seems that she's talking to him again? What happened?

Willow and Buffy seem much nearer to the possibility of a healing than Buffy and Giles....but it is all rather fragmented in the Scooby heartlands lately, yup.



The game fantasies were wonderful, but really do date the series -- how long has "30 Rock" been on, anyway? Fall of 2006?

If this about a year and a half after Chosen, that is a bit problematic, yes! Though...perhaps she fancied Tina Fey from something else? Did she do any TV before 30 Rock?



I was actually happy to see Kennedy, and even more surprisingly, I'm happy that they are together. I think Joss may have decided to establish that simply because of all the snarky rejoicing at the idea that they had broken up. Regardless, I'm willing to give her a chance to be a regular again. And Cliff Richards just had Iyari Limon locked in perfectly.

Yeah, I liked the inclusion of Kennedy, and her scene with Willow. I'm still not sure I buy her being the woman Willow loves, because we never got the chance to see that develop...damn off screen time passing!

Re the idea of Riley as Twilight...I'd find that highly irritating. I want it to be someone new, dammit! Old villains, yawn. Also, Riley going evil just seems...random. There'd have to be a good sense of buildup, of what happened there. And I'm not sure that they could deliver that without it being one big flashback. Which doth not good forward flowing drama make, imo.

But, Xander as traitor is not appealing either. I don't think I'm as invested as you, King, in it not being him...but it would seem cheap to me. I don't think it is him though.

Oh, I liked the circular time stuff. Hope they play more off that. :)

KingofCretins
04-01-08, 05:17 PM
I'm not sure what to make of it. It seemed to play more as comedy than anything else... like Anya pulling a heist in "Him". Going to read it again to absorb properly.

I would have thought so as well until Willow really points a finger at it, morally.


If this about a year and a half after Chosen, that is a bit problematic, yes! Though...perhaps she fancied Tina Fey from something else? Did she do any TV before 30 Rock?

Just as a writer on SNL, I don't even think she was actually performing on SNL until after "Mean Girls". I don't think it's likely anyone would have thought of her as "television's Tina Fey" until "30 Rock".


Yeah, I liked the inclusion of Kennedy, and her scene with Willow. I'm still not sure I buy her being the woman Willow loves, because we never got the chance to see that develop...damn off screen time passing!

Re the idea of Riley as Twilight...I'd find that highly irritating. I want it to be someone new, dammit! Old villains, yawn. Also, Riley going evil just seems...random. There'd have to be a good sense of buildup, of what happened there. And I'm not sure that they could deliver that without it being one big flashback. Which doth not good forward flowing drama make, imo.

But, Xander as traitor is not appealing either. I don't think I'm as invested as you, King, in it not being him...but it would seem cheap to me. I don't think it is him though.

I just hope they didn't show us a scene of Kennedy being likable and they're going to continue not using her.

As for Riley... I'd take it. He is former military, so he has understanding and access to such things, he is capable of fighting, he's capable of strategic thinking. I could buy him sharing Twilight's motivation of ending magic. He'd be unexpected. It would be a betrayal.

And it just works better than Xander. If it was Xander, honestly, it takes the series to a new and crappy place in terms of some messages. I mean, he and Giles are the only male characters to appear in Buffy in almost every episode of the televised seasons. We've already learned watching Buffy that Dads are Bad. We learned in Seasons 6 and 7 that Men are Rapists and Abusers. Giles has already pretty much turned his back on Buffy -- if Xander does as well, haven't we reached the All Men Are Just Bad place?

Plus, what the hell is his motivation? What would make him dislike magic, when in 8.04 he was basically bragging about how it beat the technology? What would make him want Buffy dead? It's pretty much per se nonsense, I don't think there's any way to make it believable.

In my scenario, Riley has lost Sam or something and otherwise decided that magic is to blame, and maybe even Buffy personally. He comes into the source of some kind of power and uses it to manipulate things to his control. He gets a mole because this Lt. Molter has a daughter who became a Slayer. That is still a pretty hard sell, but it makes some type of sense.

Wolfie Gilmore
04-01-08, 05:33 PM
He'd be unexpected. It would be a betrayal.

Yes, but so would Dawn, but doesn't mean it'd make narrative or emotional sense! I think surprise is overrated where reveals are concerned - that is, a surprise reveal, imo, should only be surprising to the degree that it comes as an emotional shock, not so off the wall that you're thinking...what the fck...even after the reveal happens. So...Angel losing his soul is a surprise, but it does follow with some logic from what happened. Buffy sleeps with someone and, in terms of the teenage metaphor of the show, it makes perfect sense that he goes evil.

Because we haven't been watching Riley on screen with Buffy recently, it would be too out of nowhere I reckon. It'd seem a bit like Joss had gone, hmm, who out of Buffy's life can we make into her enemy? Hmm...well, we haven't seen Riley in a while...given that last time they saw each other he was all trust and smiles and unresolved sexual tension. :)

Mind you, that depends on the context and the way it's written. A plot twist's only as good or bad as the way it's written, after all (cf the rubbishness of Spike going for his soul from a writing/direction perspective). So, I can't say absolutely whether I'd like Riley as Twilight until I've seen it.

I was saying the other day that evil riley - as we see him in Restless, making forts, giving things name, being the government - is scary as shit. So, if something happened to him to turn him into Twilight, it could deffo tap into his scary faceless government potential.

KingofCretins
04-01-08, 05:51 PM
It's a lot easier to sell an evil turn from a character that we don't see regularly than to sell one from frickin' Xander, though. And, yeah, the more I think about it, the more I'd feel like there is an unfortunate referendum of "all men are bad" if it's the *only* male regular character left in the series turns out to be evil.

Scary evil Riley would work pretty well. And it is a little odd to name check him in this issue since it wasn't relevant to Dawn's story in the strictest sense. Parker didn't really come on like the roommate guy that Dawn described, after all, and for all the trouble of drawing the comparison, they didn't *actually* mention him.

For those who were asking about the blame of Buffy for Tara being killed, Willow draws a line between simply bringing Buffy back and Tara being killed.

sueworld
04-01-08, 06:44 PM
For those who were asking about the blame of Buffy for Tara being killed, Willow draws a line between simply bringing Buffy back and Tara being killed.

Well as I did say on another thread Spikes comment in season 6 about there's always consequences when using magic was a hint towards the logic behind that. No Buffy, no sequence of events that build to getting Tara killed.

I sill strongly doubt that Joss is going to have the guts to make Xander the traitor. It's going to be one of the Slayers as I've said before. He has a 'thing' about the 'core four' and I can't see him breaking that.

Saying that though I strongly dislike his treatment so far of Giles, but then as he's not a nymphet potential I suppose he's lucky he's got what he's got so far.

As to Giant Dawn, colour me not caring anymore. That plot line bores the hell outta me I'm afraid. It's just too daft for words too.

KingofCretins
04-01-08, 06:54 PM
If guts were what it took, he might do it. Since it would also take a complete abandonment of all sense of narrative and characterization, *that's* why I don't think he'll do it, or at least why I will be pretty disappointed if he tries.

Personally, I don't think Giles has done too badly, at least not if it plays out with him as second lead of a spin off title. I think he and Faith were shown to be in a pretty good place.

Sue, I think you'd be more interested in the overall Slayer-related plot if you weren't, well, clearly pre-decided on not caring.

As for the Dawn story arc... now that we have a reason, and learned a little bit of interesting stuff about Dawn in the process, I'm okay with it, it's no longer completely tired.

sueworld
04-01-08, 07:08 PM
Personally, I don't think Giles has done too badly, at least not if it plays out with him as second lead of a spin off title. I think he and Faith were shown to be in a pretty good place.

Sue, I think you'd be more interested in the overall Slayer-related plot if you weren't, well, clearly pre-decided on not caring.


I don't like what he's done. I don't want Giles 'relegated' to the 'back of beyond' with Faith. I want him to take his rightful place alongside the rest of them. Also what on earth is supposed to be going on between Buffy and him I don't know. I wish Joss would fill some of those gaps, because it would help matters tremendously for me.

Well it's Joss's 'Job' to make me care by the tale he's telling, and so far when it comes to my personal tastes he's not succeeding all that well, bless him.

I give it a few more issues before I stop wasting my money on the things.

modifiedblind
04-01-08, 09:26 PM
Its sort of starting to feel like Season 4 in terms of everyone being on their own and not feeling connected. I didn't like that aspect of Season 4, although maybe they'll come together in the end! :)

Buffy stealing... She's just like the Trio! That's how they started and ended, robbing. I get why she felt she needed to do it, but she was always about finding another way, not making excuses so she could do the wrong thing.

As for Willow blaming Buffy's resurrection for Tara's death.. Tara may not have been killed had Buffy not been resurrected but that relationship may still have ended, due to Willow's constant use of magic. Who knows maybe Dawn would have been killed instead of Tara if things progessed as they did without Buffy being there. If Willow took Dawn to Rak's and what followed there without Buffy. I liked this issue, I just don't like where the characters are at with each other.

P.S. Anyone have any ideas as to what the Minder meant by "The Important Thing is That You will Rescue the Prince."

KingofCretins
04-01-08, 10:17 PM
Willow's issues seem a little dicey. I mean, I believe them, I just think she's wrong. Of all the things she could hold against Buffy about Tara, that seems the least fair. Willow's concern over a hell dimension wasn't exactly unreasonable -- Buffy jumped into a *portal to hell dimensions*. It's not her fault, it's not Buffy's fault. Like Alfred told young Bruce in "Batman Begins", it's him, and him alone.

Something I didn't notice until reading for the transcript, the Willow/Kennedy scene is *current*, it took place *after* "The Long Way Home". Willow refers to having seen Warren again as a reason she's so out of it. That is pretty significant, it indicates just how much she's keeping her life private right now. I'm *really* curious about what Xander knows here. Is he privy to Willow's concerns or what's going on in her life, or has Willow kind have moved him over to Buffy's side of the world? Does Xander (or Dawn) know about the whole bank robbery thing?

Also, the "victimless crime" thing... grrrrrr. Buffy's a smart girl. She says it's insured -- people *pay* for insurance. Even if its insured by the state like the FDIC in the US, it still has to come from somewhere. Either it's higher taxes or higher premiums, and that cost always gets paid by the customer at some point. There's no such thing as a 'victimless' bank robbery, even if you don't respect the specific person whose property you are taking.

modifiedblind
04-01-08, 10:38 PM
I just realized our Hero is a criminal. :err: Good call King, I didnt realize that the Willow/Kennedy scene took place after Warren. I dislike that rift between Buffy and Willow, especially when Willow says in 'A long way Home' that Willow and Buffy share a bond, that Buffy always has a part of Willow with her... (I paraphrased I'm not sure exactly what was said and I cant find that issue)

My point is, to feel that kind of connection with Buffy and yet isolating your significant other... It doesnt vibe well for me. When Willow decides to stay in Sunnydale and go to UC Sunnydale, Buffy tells her she can't let her stay, and Willow clearly says that she is the boss of her and its her decision to stay in that world. Tara didnt shy away from that world either, everyone knew the risk, even with Glory, Tara would have sacrificed herself, and did to an extent. I dont like Willow blaming Buffy! :twak:

ciderdrinker
04-01-08, 11:44 PM
P.S. Anyone have any ideas as to what the Minder meant by "The Important Thing is That You will Rescue the Prince."

I'm glad someone brought that up!

Prince and queen all in the same "season" seem to make me think that it could be Xander. If Buffy is the Queen then as she has no son, I would see it as her closest male companion as being a prince. Yes, it's a stretch I know!

I do not think the betrayer will be Xander, for all of the reasons mentioned earlier. I err on the side of Giles a bit, but surely we cannot now think of him as being close to Buffy, so that doesn't seem to fly either. So I'm falling back on it being a slayer in the Alpha Team, although that, to me at least, doesn't have the same sucker punch of it being someone we've known and trusted for a long time.

I do appreciate that Buffy immediately said that she thought it could be Willow, because that shows she has at least let it cross her mind that her friends may not always be on her side. It would make sense seeing as how that happened to her with Angel, Willow and Giles in the past.

Weredog
05-01-08, 12:13 AM
I didn't buy Willow's "confession" about why she's kept herself and Kennedy away from Buffy. It doesn't make sense. She tells Buffy she had to resurrect her for Sunnydale's sake. Yet, season six clearly demonstrated that she did so for selfish reasons. Remember "Tabula Rasa"?
It's also ridiculous that she blames herself for putting Tara in a bullet's path because it was aimed for Buffy. In season 3, Willow told Buffy that she wants to stay in Sunnydale and fight evil, much against Buffy's wishes. Willow's a smart girl so she knows that fighting evil in Sunnydale will cost people's live (that is if she can remember a certain Jesse and Jenny.) 5 years later, she's having second thoughts?

After much anticipation, this issue let me down greatly. :(

stormwreath
05-01-08, 12:16 AM
Regarding Buffy turning to crime: I agree that this is supposed to be a shocking and morally dubious revelation - but I think Buffy sees it as just a bit of fun, not important. And I suspect she kind of expects Willow to see it the same way - after all, Willow's the one who has a history of thinking "I was taking it without paying for it... in what twisted definition is that 'stealing'?". She may even think it was morally justified, given the reference to a painting stolen by the Nazis - maybe all the gold in the vault was plundered Nazi loot.

Even so, aycheb on LJ had some perceptive things to say about Buffy's sense of guilt, going right back to the first issue and her "What the hell am I doing?" comment - not to mention her extreme touchiness when confronted with Faith and Giles. She's got a guilty conscience.


The betrayer: I wouldn't rule out Xander, but if it is him I think he'll be doing it for what he believes are decent motives, not because he's mysteriously turned Evil. Perhaps he's being deceived like Roden was, being promised that the information he provides is actually in Buffy's own best interests in the long term - especially if he suspects she's turned to crime and is going off the rails.

Or perhaps the traitor is an unwitting one: somebody has been brainwashed, or had a chip implanted, or is under a spell, and doesn't even know that they're sending information to Twilight.


Willow and Buffy: she blames herself (and Warren) for Tara's death, not Buffy. But being around Buffy reminds her of that, and she's afraid that if she lets Kennedy get involved with the violence and pain that always surrounds Buffy, she'll lose her too. So she avoids Buffy, and tries to keep her and Kennedy apart. It's clear that she didn't consciously realise she was doing this until after she saw Warren in TLWH, and presumably thought "If Tara and I had taken Dawn, left Sunnydale and not resurrected Buffy, I'd never have even met Warren and Tara would still be alive."


And finally; all that discussion about an upcoming Willow/Oz reunion seems a bit less likely now we know that Willow fantasises about Tina Fey and is happily living together with Kennedy. :p

My full review. (http://stormwreath.livejournal.com/33243.html)

Weredog
05-01-08, 12:23 AM
It's clear that she didn't consciously realise she was doing this until after she saw Warren in TLWH, and presumably thought "If Tara and I had taken Dawn, left Sunnydale and not resurrected Buffy, I'd never have even met Warren and Tara would still be alive."

I understand why someone -- like Willow -- would "what if" in the back of their mind. Buffy had one in "The Body." But for Willow to literally distance herself from her (consciously or not) because of so is ridiculous. If Willow wants to play the "what if"/blame game, she should realize they shouldn't have gone to the Spring Break party in "I Was Made to Love You" where they met April and ultimately prevented Warren from skipping town as he intended to do. Because they investigated April, Warren evidently stuck around Sunnydale and shot Tara! What was the gang thinking?! :nono:

KingofCretins
05-01-08, 12:26 AM
Xander is too smart and too experienced to buy some line of BS that is meant to convince him that spying on Buffy *helps* her. A Xanderian Candidate storyline is at least plausible, but really kinda lame to me. Honestly, any storyline for Xander as the traitor just adds up to a new and glorious buttmonkeying.

'Shipping related question -- has anyone seen "Reign of Fire"? Did Christian Bale really wear the *exact same outfit* that we've seen Xander in for ten issues now? Right now, I'm going with Buffy subconsciously turning one of her fantasy Bales into Xander :) That would be two different Buffy dreams/fantasies that imply some interest.

I'm pleased with Willow and Kennedy still being together -- just don't make it a Kennedy tease, if she's going to be around, have her be around. Joss managed to make me like her more in two pages than they managed to do in 12 episodes of Season 7.

Weredog
05-01-08, 12:31 AM
Hey, I was cruising around Whedonesque and I found a comment written by Robin's husband Jerrod:

I can finally talk about this! We got to read it Monday because Scott sent us an advance copy. I thought it would lessen the anxiety (and it did) but then I was going nuts wanting to discuss it!

I can't get over how breathtaking this issue is. I loved Robin's role and Joss wrote her perfectly. It seemed like she stepped right into the comic!

It's been very helpful, too, just this week. She's had a lot of episodes lately where she thinks people are coming after her to wrap her in barbwire and put her on the train to Hell, so she needs to find her tickets. I'll just remind her of the (incredibly accurate) metaphors that Joss used in the issue and she was able to come out of it easier. The visuals helped bring things into perspective that Buffy and Willow really are there for her.

Even though the thread is labeled "SPOILER," I'll wait on saying more until more people can read it. Sorry, I'm just really excited.

Nice!

stormwreath
05-01-08, 12:31 AM
She tells Buffy she had to resurrect her for Sunnydale's sake. Yet, season six clearly demonstrated that she did so for selfish reasons.No, she specifically says that she did do it for selfish reasons. She admits it:

"But I had to bring you back. Long before Sunnydale went south - Goddess, from the day you died - I never considered any other option. [...] I chose you over her."


It's also ridiculous that she blames herself for putting Tara in a bullet's path because it was aimed for Buffy. In season 3, Willow told Buffy that she wants to stay in Sunnydale and fight evil, much against Buffy's wishes. Willow's a smart girl so she knows that fighting evil in Sunnydale will cost people's live (that is if she can remember a certain Jesse and Jenny.) 5 years later, she's having second thoughts?Precisely. She now thinks that if she'd abandoned Sunnydale after Buffy died, and gone to live somewhere far away with Tara and Dawn, then Tara would still be alive.

A lot of people in Sunnydale might be dead, but Tara would be alive.

And that's why Willow feels so guilty and awful, and why she can't face Buffy, and keeps on laughing and joking and pretending everything is fine; she knows she's being selfish, that she's betraying her own beliefs, that she shouldn't value one woman above all those other people; but she can't help it. And she doesn't want the same thing to happen to Kennedy.

Koos
05-01-08, 12:43 AM
The betrayer: I wouldn't rule out Xander, but if it is him I think he'll be doing it for what he believes are decent motives, not because he's mysteriously turned Evil. Perhaps he's being deceived like Roden was, being promised that the information he provides is actually in Buffy's own best interests in the long term - especially if he suspects she's turned to crime and is going off the rails.

Or perhaps the traitor is an unwitting one: somebody has been brainwashed, or had a chip implanted, or is under a spell, and doesn't even know that they're sending information to Twilight.


I haven't read the issue yet, but I got the reference that someone close to Buffy would betray her. It is not said what betraying means. I mean we know that Twilight has a man inside, but this does not automatically mean it is one and the same person.

Of course it could be the same person and that 'close' means that it is someone who physically close to Buffy, not in her heart.

KingofCretins
05-01-08, 12:47 AM
The context is very literal -- Buffy and Willow are looked at a picture of a broken and beaten Buffy, weeping on the ground where she lays (something we know that mere physical pain has never made Buffy do). Buffy asks what happens to her, and Robin says "betrayal, the closest, the most unexpected".

So the betrayal in question is not at all abstract, and is in some way the cause of what Buffy is seeing.

There are two possible ideas of who could be the betrayer that I can see. The mole, or Twilight himself. If it's the mole, basically, I'm thinking it's Renee or Satsu. Or, however inexplicable, Dawn or Xander. But, the other possibility is that the close and unexpected betrayal is related to Twilight's identity. I'm not ruling out the possibility that Riley is behind that mask.

Koos
05-01-08, 12:56 AM
The context is very literal -- Buffy and Willow are looked at a picture of a broken and beaten Buffy, weeping on the ground where she lays (something we know that mere physical pain has never made Buffy do). Buffy asks what happens to her, and Robin says "betrayal, the closest, the most unexpected".

Well, Xander does qualify as the most unexpected. It could be Dawn, but to me this really means Xander.


There are two possible ideas of who could be the betrayer that I can see. The mole, or Twilight himself.

If Twilight himself is the betrayer than there's still the mole. That's what I meant: the betrayer and the mole don't have to be the same person.

Nostalgia
05-01-08, 01:39 AM
Wow. Honestly, I never knew a comic book could be this gripping.
n. One too obvious, and two too off the deep end.
Willow's state of being right now is of a very sad scene. At first I was upset because I had a hard time understanding who exactly she was blaming. I immediately thought she was blaming Buffy for being alive again, and I think anyone would realize that's absolutely absurd. I became furious and turned on my Willow likeness meter completely down until snapped off. Such ideas of "YOU ARE THE ONE WHO BROUGHT HER FRIGGIN' BACK!!!" ran through my mind. How could someone blame an innocent who was in Heaven, for being responsible of her lover's death? Then I re-read it, and realized she was talking about herself.

I feel terrible for Willow. She is really a great person, and I can see it in her that she feels terrible for wishing that Buffy was still dead so that Tara would be alive. It's a tough concept to grasp, but I think many people make these decisions and think these thoughts subconsciously day to day. I loved this issue so much because of how pain-staking it was. It brings back the idea of reality from season 6, and regurgitates it.


After much anticipation, this issue let me down greatly.

Care to elaborate? Because honestly, I haven't seen Joss write such powerful stuff since "The Gift." When Joss mentioned tears flowing when reading this, I perfectly understand how that is so possible (though no, I didn't cry. :)).

I loved the details of their dreams, and how close Willow and Buffy are during this episode, yet at the same time they are hiding these huge secrets.

Speaking of secrets, Buffy breaking and entering?! AND stealing?

Wow.. I have to say I am quite surprised. I think I may have to agree that I saw comparisons to Anya in "Him" as soon as I read it.. and Buffy's reaction did seem of a comedic dispense. However, King brought up a good point of how Willow became very speechy' about it. And after all, the deed still was done.

I still love Buffy for who she is, but that kind of hurts her character for me slightly. I think that's what this issue was for though. It was taking these two important characters to the show, and showing sides of them that they don't exactly like to show.

I think Buffy believed what she was doing was harmless, but in all reality her superiority complex seems to be rearing its head again. Though I can't help but maybe think she thought it was alright AFTER what they declared against her. Is there a time frame put on this, because if it was after "The Long Way Home," then I seriously have no problems with her doing it. Stealing from the enemy never hurt.

As for the "betrayal," I am almost one-hundred percent positive that it will be the identity of Twilight. Although it does state at the beginning that "Twilight" is the NEW big bad, there would be no point of showing Buffy cut up and injured if Twilight wasn't related to the betrayal.

Honestly, I can't see how it could be plausible that Twilight is Riley. The minder says that it's "the closest". Riley and Buffy... well, they haven't been close for about 2-3 years now. So, I can't imagine how Joss could pull off something like that and still make sense.

In fact, if we're given "closest," only 4 possible people signify a chance to be Twilight. Giles, Angel, Spike, or Xander. Out of those two, Angel and Spike seem to be limited to a contract, so guest appearances as the BIG bad would be hardly a shot. Also, they have souls and were in the middle of saving LA. So what, they stopped by to kill Buffy and end their own background of powers? That eliminates them.

Who is left? Xander and Giles.

Honestly, with all of the interaction with Dawn. Putting Xander as Twilight would be equivalent to making Dawn a boy in the next issue. There's been absolutely no indication once so ever in terms of Xander possibly becoming evil. I agree with Wolfie that you can't pull a rabbit out of a hat and call it a surprise. There has to be some sort of reason and line behind it.

Giles has been our go to guy from betrayal recently. In all honesty, this is what I threw out there already before. Although I also countered this idea with the who's, when's and how's of the time between switching identities, it would make the most sense on paper.

There's also the mole situation. However, I'd still rule out Xander. I'd say if the reference is to the mole, the closest we could get to hurting Buffy would be either Dawn or Xander. Giles would be way too obvious at this point.

My guess? If we're talking about the mole, Dawn's the only other character who needed some gaps filled in. We have the gist with Willow's deal, but we still are left with the short end of the stick in terms of what went down with Dawn. Although I can't imagine it not being a mistakingly made betrayal, so that kind of hurts her chances because it really would be that hurtful.

I am really left with no idea. All I know is it's either Giles or Xander.

EDIT: WHO and WHAT is Willow with when the demon reveals Willow's secret? Some demon she was having an affair with or being seduced by? Anyone find this peculiar?

Also, the more I read it, the more "out of context for the sake of comedy" the entire "Buffy robs a bank" scheme seems. Actually, it seemed Joss purposely gave Willow that big speech to even further the comedy, because Buffy immediately cuts her off and states something about her "bad" deed. Seems to me it was one of those over-serious moments for the sake of comedy.

Nostalgia
05-01-08, 03:34 AM
I wanted to bring up the point that was made about concern whether or not Buffy and Willow can ever have the same relationship.

Honestly, I don't think there is much concern at all. Of course they can be the way they used to be. In fact, they still are. Throughout season 8, we've seen that Buffy and Willow have been the strongest in terms of relationship wise ever since. I don't think Buffy will exactly be too offended just because Willow has some guilt for bringing her back. After all, Buffy recognizes how much Willow loved Tara, and would probably hope the same if this was put into a situation with Angel per se. I am surprised by their sudden walking distance at the end, because with how they accompanied each other, to me it seemed like this entire affair would just be growing pains. I'm sure Buffy is hurt, because any human who was sane would be. But I wouldn't count on this affecting their long-term relationship.

KingofCretins
05-01-08, 03:46 AM
Also, the more I read it, the more "out of context for the sake of comedy" the entire "Buffy robs a bank" scheme seems. Actually, it seemed Joss purposely gave Willow that big speech to even further the comedy, because Buffy immediately cuts her off and states something about her "bad" deed. Seems to me it was one of those over-serious moments for the sake of comedy.

No way. Willow wasn't making a casual, moralizing speech -- she was drawing a direct link between Buffy leading the Slayers in that direction as a *cause* of their current crisis. That's not funny, nor meant to be funny.

It also rules out the idea that Buffy only took to the thieving after 8.04 -- because they were already flush with technology and helicopters and all that *before* "The Long Way Home".

Xander can't *be* Twilight -- Xander was at the BHC coordinating Buffy's mission while Twilight was spying on Buffy and Alpha Team in 8.01.

I don't know that Twilight's identity will be relevant or be the betrayal. It's just intuitive when you see someone in a mask that it will matter who is behind it. Of men close to Buffy that you can construct a plausible theory for having Twilight's agenda, Riley is one of the first that leaps to mind. He is not a hard guy to imagine wanting to have done with the world of magic, he has military ties, he can fight. All they'd have to do is explain his powers (which we already have a plausible theory for, based on that other character). It's also worth noting that they name checked him for no really plot relevant reason in this issue.

I don't buy Giles, because Giles was a victim of one of Twilight's well-designed plots.

Angel or Spike would be very bold, but difficult to sell.

What about Hank Summers? Bad Dads are notorious in the Buffyverse, and, again, like Riley, it's not hard to establish the same motivation and agenda that Twilight has.

Nostalgia
05-01-08, 03:58 AM
I don't know.. I see both sides of it. I keep getting reminded of that one scene where Buffy is giving her speech about "The Initiative" in her yummy sushi pj's.

It's the idea of a serious tone totally being ridiculed. I think Buffy would have maybe accepted that what she did was wrong at least.. but she immediately makes a cute comment about Willow's little "bad" deed.

I wouldn't say "No way," though I see where you are coming from, and I definitely see a serious tone being used for the sake of seriousness just as plausible if not more plausible. It's just the little things that change my mind.



Xander can't *be* Twilight -- Xander was at the BHC coordinating Buffy's mission while Twilight was spying on Buffy and Alpha Team in 8.01.

I wasn't saying it was him, I was just saying he was an option. I was kind of thinking out on text.. because I immediately ruled him out. It's not Xander. And I'd rule out him as a mole as well. He's too good of a person, and would go against everything his character is.

I also think Hank Summers as the new big bad might be the laziest dea Joss could ever come up with.

With the vision of Buffy hurt and crying, the promotion of the revealing of the new Big Bad already, and other things, I think it's safe to say the betrayal will equal to identity of Twilight.

modifiedblind
05-01-08, 04:02 AM
I have a crack pot type theory about who may be the inside man. Robin Wood. Ok, so we've only seen him once in Season 8 and maybe its because the minder's name was Robin and I can't get that connection out of my head. My suspicion comes from the fact that Robin Wood is the son of a Slayer. In 'Lies my Parent told me' his mom says, 'The mission is what matters.' Spike also mentions the fact that although Wood loved his mother, his mother chose to fight vampires.

Wood isn't by far the closest to Buffy, but it seems that if someone came to him maybe a mother of a slayer, or a daughter of a slayer and told them of the way of Twilight to destroy all magicks and with that slayers and used his own childhood memories of being left alone without his mother, to me, Wood seems like a perfect canidate to buy into Twilight and choose to fight from within Buffy's squad. :s

KingofCretins
05-01-08, 04:12 AM
As frustrating as it is, we don't really have a reason to assume that the traitor, or Twilight's identity, or much at all will be revealed to us in 8.11. We just know Buffy will meet Twilight in a fight, and that custom dictates that she'll almost certainly get her ass kicked.

I really hope Joss doesn't decide to tease this out for months and months and months (and even one arc means months and months) -- it's just too painful. I mean, I think most of us were bracing in for the true love's kiss mystery to span several episodes, and it was revealed in the next issue. This is now two issues we've had the idea of a traitor and/or a mole. I hope it pays off in "A Beautiful Sunset", but we don't have any reason to just assume it will be.

I also don't particularly fancy the idea that we, the audience, will know but that Buffy won't... I don't find that all that exciting. And even on TV, the only time they did it was with Faith, and that lasted three whole episodes. Even three issues in comic time would be like half a television season, and three 'episodes' worth of comic time would be almost a *year*.

I have trouble guessing what's going to happen with Buffy and Willow's relationship. Right now, I'd say that Kennedy matters more to Willow than Buffy, and that she's walking a delicate line because she knows that the fight is beside Buffy but that her *life* isn't anymore. She's in a similar position to what Giles was in at the beginning of Season 5 and Season 6.

Nostalgia
05-01-08, 04:42 AM
As frustrating as it is, we don't really have a reason to assume that the traitor, or Twilight's identity, or much at all will be revealed to us in 8.11. We just know Buffy will meet Twilight in a fight, and that custom dictates that she'll almost certainly get her ass kicked.

I really hope Joss doesn't decide to tease this out for months and months and months (and even one arc means months and months) -- it's just too painful. I mean, I think most of us were bracing in for the true love's kiss mystery to span several episodes, and it was revealed in the next issue. This is now two issues we've had the idea of a traitor and/or a mole. I hope it pays off in "A Beautiful Sunset", but we don't have any reason to just assume it will be.

I also don't particularly fancy the idea that we, the audience, will know but that Buffy won't... I don't find that all that exciting. And even on TV, the only time they did it was with Faith, and that lasted three whole episodes. Even three issues in comic time would be like half a television season, and three 'episodes' worth of comic time would be almost a *year*.

I have trouble guessing what's going to happen with Buffy and Willow's relationship. Right now, I'd say that Kennedy matters more to Willow than Buffy, and that she's walking a delicate line because she knows that the fight is beside Buffy but that her *life* isn't anymore. She's in a similar position to what Giles was in at the beginning of Season 5 and Season 6.

Actually, surprisingly enough, it's revealed that in "A Beautiful Sunset" that the identity of Twilight will be shown. It said it on that site that promotes a lot of Buffy season 8 merchandise.. I already saw an add.

KingofCretins
05-01-08, 04:45 AM
If you're referring to the TFAW banner that says "The New Big Bad Will Be Revealed", that doesn't have to refer to anything beyond the simple fact that he is revealed to Buffy -- that he makes an appearance. Buffy doesn't yet know that Twilight refers to an individual and not just an organization. Is there something else that's a little bit more specific that Twilight's identity will be revealed?

ThePoet's<3
05-01-08, 06:19 AM
In a way this was a very sad issue. I was as floored as Buffy at finding that Willow blames herself for Tara's death (in a round about way). It was a conclusion I hadn't considered.

When I read/saw the panels of Buffy robbing the bank I was a bit confused as to whether it actually had happened or if it was something that may or may not occur in the future. As in a glimpse of how bad things could become unless Buffy defeated the evil that comes her way.

And it does seem that Willow has not been staying on at MacCastle from the earlier issue but has been back and forth.

I almost feel very badly for Buffy. It's almost a Season 6 set up (OH YES! CUE S7 SPIKE!! :lol: ) with her best friend revealing how much she blames herself for bringing her back from the dead, and now doesn't want her GF friend anywhere around her, someone very close to her will betray her, a huge Big Bad is coming to kick her butt, Giles has turned away AND she robs banks! Throw in a Summer at MacDoublemeat Castle and one hott steamy vampire...:heart: :D

Funny how in the first issue someone refers to the Slayers basically making up their own rules and following them - which is why Twilight is on the scene. Perhaps it's very true - Buffy is writing her own rules now. At first I thought it was farfetched to even cast such an aspersion - but now - TPTB are setting up a convincing storyline.

If this is the "forshadowing" of things to come... Xander looks pretty con-vincing for a Judas. However, I won't believe he does it for any other reason than to protect her. Or it has a grander purpose to be revealed to Buffy at later date.

Willow/Kennedy... I miss OZ... *sigh*

KingofCretins
05-01-08, 06:32 AM
Forget it, Poet -- BHC stuck :)

I get the impression based on the scene with Kennedy that Willow doesn't stay at the BHC as anything more than a guest -- wherever that apartment is, that appears to be her 'home', with Kennedy. Any Londoners see anything familiar in that skyline? I really doubt Willow is flying in on a daily or weekly basis from somewhere in the United States or South America.

Time to have Kennedy around, though -- if Willow feels bad about what she's said and done, then there's really only one remedy, to take that leap, to incorporate Kennedy into the circle. Buffy seems ready to accept her, Xander never seemed to have a problem.

Honestly, Xander as the traitor would make less than no sense at all. I have a full-on rant on this that I'm preparing that may just be its own thread.

Nostalgia
05-01-08, 06:37 AM
Honestly, Xander as the traitor would make less than no sense at all. I have a full-on rant on this that I'm preparing that may just be its own thread.

I understand how ready and embracingly prepared you are, but honestly what are you to be afraid of?

As I said already, Joss would of had to given us some sort of lead on it somehow.. something that would click. There hasn't been any reason to suspect it so far, so I really wouldn't be so agitated by it.

As for Buffy's theft, I think Buffy clarifies herself that she had done it already. It's not so much that she did it that really bothers me, but her smile and the way she responds to the Slayers. She makes it seem almost as if she's bossing them around and forcing them to steal. I hope more is said about this.

The thing that I'm SO surprised that hasn't gotten mentioned is Willow's naked revealing bubble with what appears to be some demon of some sort. No one questioned what the heck that is about?

modifiedblind
05-01-08, 06:40 AM
I reread the comic again, although Willow tells Buffy about why Kennedy isn't around and all that emotional stuff, when Buffy says 'Hail Mary' Willow is right there with the magic Buffy needs to fight, I thought that was an awesome scene and showcases how close they really are.

Maybe Buffy will betray herself? She always says she's alone, she has to cut herself off from everyone, so the closest person to her, would be her. I dunno how she'd do it though. :hf2:

ThePoet's<3
05-01-08, 06:44 AM
Forget it, Poet -- BHC stuck :)

Dude... "Mac" is the new Honkin' - MacDreamy, MacSteamy, MacGrouchy, MacVomit...:lol: :D


Honestly, Xander as the traitor would make less than no sense at all. I have a full-on rant on this that I'm preparing that may just be its own thread.

I agree - I would hate for Xander to be the betrayer. But "shock-value"? Oh man - how deep the wound would be!!

Another scenario that has been running through my mind is how everyone turned away from Buffy in S7. I would almost say the Scoobies were incapable of betraying one another - accept for how hey turned their back on her then...


Time to have Kennedy around, though -- if Willow feels bad about what she's said and done, then there's really only one remedy, to take that leap, to incorporate Kennedy into the circle. Buffy seems ready to accept her, Xander never seemed to have a problem. OR - she continues to protect Kennedy by NOT bringing her around and OZ drops by Mac:D to lend a hand. I like that better...

Nostalgia
05-01-08, 06:46 AM
I reread the comic again, although Willow tells Buffy about why Kennedy isn't around and all that emotional stuff, when Buffy says 'Hail Mary' Willow is right there with the magic Buffy needs to fight, I thought that was an awesome scene and showcases how close they really are.

Maybe Buffy will betray herself? She always says she's alone, she has to cut herself off from everyone, so the closest person to her, would be her. I dunno how she'd do it though. :hf2:

That's exactly what I thought when I read concern about their relationship. Great point, I totally agree. If anything, season 8 has showcased how really close they really are at this point. Actually, if anything, all this reveals about Willow is that she cares a lot more about Kennedy than we initially had thought. She's in love with her.. and doesn't want to let something happen to her like what happened to Tara.

Well there goes any new relationship possibilities :(..

I think the final scene represents their concerns with themselves.. as well as Buffy's pain and sadness over the entire situation.. and Willow's guilt. Buffy will get over it, but it's clearly demonstrated it is not affecting their relationship in anyway. They are both just trying to cope with the situation right now.

I didn't quite understand the last convo. though..

Just demons playing games? That's confusing me.

KingofCretins
05-01-08, 06:50 AM
I'd say the key there is that demons is a double entendre in that line.

MacCastle sounds like fast food, there's no "Buffy" in it.

Having Kennedy around and Oz around aren't mutually exclusive. It just takes Willow out of the dating pool.

I don't remember if I asked this here or on another board, but has anyone seen "Reign of Fire"? Was Christian Bale wearing the *exact same outfit* as Xander in that movie? Because in 8.10, "Reign of Fire" Bale *was* wearing the same outfit Xander does. Buffy's subconscious has now generated two fantasy elements of Xander :)

The "Hail Mary" thing was, reading it again, the trick they pulled. It's an American football reference, a deep pass thrown in desperation. That's why Buffy said "touchdown".

LaJaula
05-01-08, 06:50 AM
The thing that I'm SO surprised that hasn't gotten mentioned is Willow's naked revealing bubble with what appears to be some demon of some sort. No one questioned what the heck that is about?

This is what I'm curious about. I don't have the comic; I've just read the transcript, so I'm a bit confused as to what is going on with this. The...female, definitely? is definitely a demon? I think a tail was mentioned. I wonder why this was shown before a scene where Willow demonstrates how much she loves Kennedy- was she cheating on her with the demoness, or was in some sort of Dracula-esque thrall? I want to hear more opinions about this.


everyone turned away from Buffy in S7. I would almost say the Scoobies were incapable of betraying one another - accept for how hey turned their back on her then...

I think that was more of a disagreement; this is gearing up for an ultimate betrayal. Also, that sort-of makes me think that the betrayer won't be revealed just yet- if Twilight's the Big Bad, we haven't really learned enough about his motives and plans to figure out why joining him would be such a huge blow to Buffy. We have to establish them more as enemies first, IMO.

KingofCretins
05-01-08, 06:55 AM
This is what I'm curious about. I don't have the comic; I've just read the transcript, so I'm a bit confused as to what is going on with this. The...female, definitely? is definitely a demon? I think a tail was mentioned.

She was kinda like the dragon woman in "The Golden Child", except more 'sea serpent' than dragon, and green skinned. She's all tail from the waist down, and was all coiled around Willow. It was... pretty sexy, actually.

Twilight has expressly stated his intention that Buffy will be wiped out, I don't think they could be more clearly enemies.

Nostalgia
05-01-08, 07:00 AM
Honestly, Twilight could turn out to be my favorite big bad of the series. Just talk about this next issue has my mouth watering, and he seriously becoming Angelus status here. His entire apparel, mysteriousness, brooding attitude, and his mission to destroy magic just is so intimidating. I've never seen anything like this guy.

LaJaula
05-01-08, 07:06 AM
Twilight has expressly stated his intention that Buffy will be wiped out, I don't think they could be more clearly enemies.

I guess I meant that it would have to be more personal for Buffy- if she walks up to Twilight now and sees that one of her Slayers is standing next to him, she'll be all, "Huh. Okay." But I think for her to have had some sort of battle with Twilight, gotten to know him, discussed him with Xander and the girls, and then seen that someone she knows and trusts has joined him, it would be a harsher blow. She may hate Twilight's ideas, but for her to hate him as a person/demon/whatever, and then be betrayed, would be much worse.

ThePoet's<3
05-01-08, 07:20 AM
Fast Food... Like there is NO fast food in Buffy... :p

Here is the best pic I could come up with for Christian Bale in "Reign of Fire" http://movies.about.com/library/weekly/aareignpicsn.htm

Does he look like Xander?? Not so much to me... *shrugs* Could it have been more of a reference of the actual movies themselves?

Movie Synopsis: Spoiled for space...
It is twenty years in the future, and the planet has been devastated by vicious fire-breathing dragons. The last vestiges of humanity now struggle for survival in at remote ouposts. In a ruined castle in the English countryside, Quinn is desperately trying to hold together a band of frightened, restless survivors. As a boy, Quinn watched his mother die protecting him from one of the beasts, and is still haunted by the memory. One day, a group of American rouges shows up, led by a brash, tough-guy named Van Zam. He claims to have discovered a way to kill the dragons once and for all, and enlists Quinn's help. But doing so will force Quinn to confront his own frightening memories. This, and Quinn's responsibilities to those that are under his protection, results in a battle of wills between the two men. In the end, events cause them both to realize that they must work together to defeat the monsters--both without and within. Written by LOTUSB1973

My own thoughts - that last line kinda ties in with the last line about the demons.

Because the other Christian Bale was from "Little Women".

The Snaky-Goddess lady to me represented "seduction". And Willow has been seduced by the magicks on more than one occasion - leaving her completely naked. It was almost as if the creature was asking her - "have you learned everything about the magicks that you want to learn? "

One thought I had about Willow was how incredibly powerful she has become... Buffy looks like a little girl playing supergirl with a towel.

If this follows the path of Fray and Buffy turns out to be the Slayer to end all Magicks - perhaps Willow doesn't want to lose her power?? I know she denied it when Buffy asked her (And wasn't that a little on the *telling* side?? Buffy immediately looks at her and says, "Is it you"? I would be so hurt if I were Willow.) but maybe that's the ultimate betrayal - one that's denied. I mean she wouldn't tell her the truth! "Oh yeah - it's me."

Those two did tie up pretty badly that one time...

KingofCretins
05-01-08, 07:26 AM
The snaky woman was quite literal, however. She wasn't symbolic of anything, this was an encounter Willow actually had.

And, yes, Reign of Fire Bale wore the *exact* same grey sweater with black shoulderpad look with the same color slacks Xander wears almost exclusively, as well as during this issue. Which, based on that photo, is basically nothing like what he wears in the movie.

And, incidentally, where is Buffy getting interest in watching movies like "Reign of Fire" anyway? Or, more to the point, where else could she have gotten it from?

ThePoet's<3
05-01-08, 07:32 AM
The snaky woman was quite literal, however. She wasn't symbolic of anything, this was an encounter Willow actually had.

And, yes, Reign of Fire Bale wore the *exact* same grey sweater with black shoulderpad look with the same color slacks Xander wears almost exclusively, as well as during this issue. Which, based on that photo, is basically nothing like what he wears in the movie.

And, incidentally, where is Buffy getting interest in watching movies like "Reign of Fire" anyway? Or, more to the point, where else could she have gotten it from?

Well ROF was out in 2002 so in plenty of time for her to make it to the Sunnydale Cineplex.

I personally think the movies are "cluelettes" to the storyline. I mean - Little Women is an early Women's Empowerment story by M.Alcott and the ROF reference has all kinds of references of small group of people battling against all odds to defeat a great evil once they realize they have to rely upon one another as a Team. Very much the theme for most Buffy episodes.

And Snaky Lady I think she may have been "real" but still a sign of Willow being seduced into "more power". I think the liitle Witch has been crossing the lines again...

vampmogs
05-01-08, 07:43 AM
Haven't got my hands on the issue yet but read transcript and enough posts to get the jist of things. I think we'll probably discover who the betrayer is as early as next issue by the description of Buffy's clothes. Lying bloody on the floor, in a tank top with cuts and bruises is exactly the same as the image of Buffy on the 8.11 cover, only we don't see her face on that cover to determine wether or not she is crying. So it is very possible the betrayer will be revealed next issue, and that he or she is actually Twilight or working very close to them.

I actually wouldn't rule out Xander as someone who could eventually "betray" Buffy. We've seen now Buffy is walking a pretty blurry line, we've seen Twilight have its own concerns about this, we've seen Buffy nearly kill Gigi and steal from people. I think it is possible Buffy could go off the wagon to the point Xander can't be a part of her operation, he just has to walk away. It'd been seen as betrayal by Buffy's POV but not so much by Xander's or the audience if he'd be justified in turning his back on her.

modifiedblind
05-01-08, 08:10 AM
At first I didnt think the shirt Buffy is wearing in 'A Beautiful Sunset' matched the 'crying scratched up Buffy' mainly because the shirt she's wearing when she's crying is yellow, but I looked at the cover of a 'Beautiful Sunset' and sure enough at the bottem of the cover peeking out from under her tank top is a yellow shirt! Or am I wrong?

vampmogs
05-01-08, 08:12 AM
At first I didnt think the shirt Buffy is wearing in 'A Beautiful Sunset' matched the 'crying scratched up Buffy' mainly because the shirt she's wearing when she's crying is yellow, but I looked at the cover of a 'Beautiful Sunset' and sure enough at the bottem of the cover peeking out from under her tank top is a yellow shirt! Or am I wrong?

I can't really answer that. I haven't got my hands on an actual copy yet so I haven't seen the comic for myself, I'm just basing my assumption on the description that King had of what Buffy was wearing in his transcript for this ep. :)

Anon
05-01-08, 08:26 AM
I actually wouldn't rule out Xander as someone who could eventually "betray" Buffy. We've seen now Buffy is walking a pretty blurry line, we've seen Twilight have its own concerns about this, we've seen Buffy nearly kill Gigi and steal from people. I think it is possible Buffy could go off the wagon to the point Xander can't be a part of her operation, he just has to walk away. It'd been seen as betrayal by Buffy's POV but not so much by Xander's or the audience if he'd be justified in turning his back on her.I hope not. I'm not happy with Buffy robbing a bank as it is. If they go down that route, I might just stop reading the comics.

vampmogs
05-01-08, 08:47 AM
I hope not. I'm not happy with Buffy robbing a bank as it is. If they go down that route, I might just stop reading the comics.

What route is that? Buffy going dark? I actually think it is a really interesting idea. Really it is an idea that he been explored before, not just with Buffy but with any character who suddenly has all this power. What exactly stops them from doing things above the law to benefit themselves? Willow made a good link between Buffy's actions here and Faith. Heck, even the insurance line kind of fits lol'

BUFFY: You think they're insured?
FAITH: Strangely, not my priority

though Buffy hasn't gone quite that dark ;) But yeah, I like the idea of Buffy maybe starting to act a little off. She's in this castle, people have referred to her as the queen, with little to not contact with the outside world. Kind of like the idea of it feeding her already present superiority complex.

Anon
05-01-08, 08:59 AM
What route is that? Buffy going dark? I actually think it is a really interesting idea.They are going to have to do much better in terms explanations then they have done so far. What we've been shown in this issue looks more like character assassination than development.

Koos
05-01-08, 10:48 AM
I hope not. I'm not happy with Buffy robbing a bank as it is.

I love it!

It makes me like her suddenly a lot more. It makes her human and involved, instead of a non-caring saint.

Gabrielle
05-01-08, 12:19 PM
I dont like Willow blaming Buffy! :twak:


Well, for my part, I didn't read this as Willow blaming Buffy for Tara's death, but as Willow blaming herself for resurrecting Buffy instead of mourning and moving on. Willow's reasoning is pretty simple : no ressurecting Buffy, no dying Tara. Maybe it's a wrong way of thinking but that's it. And I really felt that she was blaming herself and not Buffy. But I get that Buffy can be hurt to hear that.

ciderdrinker
05-01-08, 02:26 PM
If anyone is wondering what the effect that including Robin in the comic was having on her then here is a post from Whedonesque from her husband:-

*get the tissues ready*

If I may share a moment that just happened, Robin was just yelling about monsters trying to come in the house to kill her. I reminded her that Buffy and Willow are every bit as real as those monsters, and then I held the comic in front of her. It took a moment to process, but then she said, "I'm a minder. Buffy and Willow's got my back!"

I said, "That's right. If anything tries to mess with your mind, they'll kick butt and cut tails off."

"Yeah!" Her face brightened and her face went "normal" again. "Can I have some decaf coffee?"

"Sure, sweetheart."

"With marshmallows?"

Her episodes can last a lot longer than that. I could have been working with her all night, the poor thing terrified that she wasn't safe. But not with that comic, and I'm not fooling her, either. Buffy and Willow really ARE as real as her hallucinations. They're a part of all of us.

I also keep reminding her that fellow Buffy fans all over the world are rooting for her and it means so much to both of us. Thanks again for everyone's support.

Powerful stuff, I think you'll agree

Anon
05-01-08, 02:42 PM
I love it!

It makes me like her suddenly a lot more. It makes her human and involved, instead of a non-caring saint.I don't think Buffy was ever an uncaring saint. Uncaring is a fair term to use about her in season seven, but for the most part it is anything but.

What this does do is strip her of the integrity that was a large part of her character for seven years of canon. Joss had better have a very good explantion for this.

KingofCretins
05-01-08, 03:16 PM
It'd been seen as betrayal by Buffy's POV but not so much by Xander's or the audience if he'd be justified in turning his back on her.

If that was the question, there might be an argument. But it's not a question of turning his back on her, it's a question of *joining Twilight*. This man means to kill her. You actually think Xander could help him because he's upset that Buffy robbed a bank? It's ridiculous as soon as it's spoken.

I don't see how robbery makes Buffy human -- most humans do not, in fact, ever rob anybody. For that matter, I can't understand how one could possibly think she didn't act human before.

stormwreath
05-01-08, 03:44 PM
What this does do is strip her of the integrity that was a large part of her character for seven years of canon. Joss had better have a very good explantion for this.How about the explanation that "power corrupts"? That Buffy as the isolated leader of a secret society of Slayers, cut off from the world and thinking that the entire human race has declared war on her, might decide to fight back? That she thinks that sometimes the end justifies the means?

And it's not as if she's not committed theft before. She was stealing rocket launchers as far back as season 2; in season 7 ('Touched') she was carrying out home invasions, driving innocent people out of their own house and looting it.



If that was the question, there might be an argument. But it's not a question of turning his back on her, it's a question of *joining Twilight*. This man means to kill her. You actually think Xander could help him because he's upset that Buffy robbed a bank? It's ridiculous as soon as it's spoken.What makes you think that the 'betrayal' will be as extreme and obvious as "goes over completely to Twilight's side, accepts his entire agenda and signs up to all his objectives"? What makes you think the betrayer will even be aware of Twilight's objectives, for that matter?

We've seen several examples where Xander thinks that Buffy has betrayed all his ideals and he refuses to have anything more to do with her for a while. See 'Revelations' in season 3 or 'Entropy/Seeing Red' in season 6 for examples. So maybe he walks out of Castle Slayer in disgust, just as Twilight mounts an attack and his help manning the control room is urgently needed. Or maybe Buffy mounts another bank robbery and this time someone innocent is killed in the crossfire, and Xander thinks turning her in to the police is actually for her own good before she does something even more crazy? (And the police, unknown to him, are actually agents of Twilight).

KingofCretins
05-01-08, 03:55 PM
What makes you think that the 'betrayal' will be as extreme and obvious as "goes over completely to Twilight's side, accepts his entire agenda and signs up to all his objectives"? What makes you think the betrayer will even be aware of Twilight's objectives, for that matter?

We've seen several examples where Xander thinks that Buffy has betrayed all his ideals and he refuses to have anything more to do with her for a while. See 'Revelations' in season 3 or 'Entropy/Seeing Red' in season 6 for examples. So maybe he walks out of Castle Slayer in disgust, just as Twilight mounts an attack and his help manning the control room is urgently needed. Or maybe Buffy mounts another bank robbery and this time someone innocent is killed in the crossfire, and Xander thinks turning her in to the police is actually for her own good before she does something even more crazy? (And the police, unknown to him, are actually agents of Twilight).

The more theorizing on it, the less plausible it sounds. First, we know that there is a mole -- if the mole is the traitor, then the mole is tacitly already on Twilight's side, knowingly or not. And Xander is too smart to ever think there's anything innocent or in Buffy's best interest to inform on her to some mysterious force. Exactly what about anything she's done could *possibly* lead Xander to think she should die or get put away? Like I said... it's ridiculous as soon as it's spoken.

While it's at least articulable that he could just walk away from her on his own and that that is the betrayal, there are two serious problems with that --

Then there is still a mole, unexplained, that apparently had *nothing* to do with the betrayal we've been talking about for two issues now (?!).
From a narrative standpoint, there has been no beef, no tension, no nothing between them. The only motivating facts we know of aren't even things we can say for certain Xander knows about. That's a lot of random crap to throw out in the process of explaining him walking away.

Xander has gone his own way before, or even countermanded Buffy, but *never* in a context in which a foreseeable result would be to see her actually hurt. Caring about her, and, yes, *loving* her has been one of the largest motivations in his character from the first episode on.

Koos
05-01-08, 03:56 PM
I don't think Buffy was ever an uncaring saint. Uncaring is a fair term to use about her in season seven, but for the most part it is anything but.

So far I haven't seen her caring that much.



What this does do is strip her of the integrity that was a large part of her character for seven years of canon. Joss had better have a very good explantion for this.

Buffy was faced with the need to find hundreds of Slayers around the world and giving them an organized place as quickly as possible. Even lives are at stake as we could have seen with Dana. Buffy *needed* the money. Of course robbing a bank is wrong, but it is not something she did to enrich herself or because it was cool. It shouldn't become the idea that every means justifies the goal. They shouldn't become the bad guys themselves in order to stop the bad guys. But holding on to those kind of principles that, in the light of the conditions that Buffy had to consider, would have made Buffy inhuman. It is not perfect, but it is a solution. A practical solution that does fit in with the 'bring out the axe and fight' no-nonsense kind of practicallity that is so Buffy.

And if Buffy felt like she was above the law (or as The Law like she did in S7) than I would have agreed with you. But Buffy really felt awkward about it. She couldn't even tell the truth to Willow while the truth was right in front of them. That makes her feel human and that makes it within character. That also showed that she really felt she needed to do this even though it made her feel dirty.

Anon
05-01-08, 05:06 PM
How about the explanation that "power corrupts"? That Buffy as the isolated leader of a secret society of Slayers, cut off from the world and thinking that the entire human race has declared war on her, might decide to fight back? That she thinks that sometimes the end justifies the means?That does depend a little on timing. We don't know enough of the details to use all of that as justification. If it was just a one off and there was need then I might accept this. However, if this is anything more than that, I would take it as Buffy being corrupted too much, too quickly. I really hope it isn't Buffy going dark, as this particular plot device has been used in Buffy and Angel numerous times before and would most likely go completely OTT.


So far I haven't seen her caring that much.Koos, I get the strong impression that the only season you ever watched was season 7.

I have provided various examples below. Spoilered for space and being off-topic.
From Becoming, Part 2:

The hall outside the Emergency Room at Sunnydale General Hospital. Buffy
comes into the hall wearing a wool cap and a long, dark coat. She averts
her eyes from the doctors and nurses. On the wall she finds a slot with
a few patient histories and checks the names on them. There are none
she's interested in. She continues slowly down the hall, avoiding the
eyes of a passing doctor. She checks another series of slots for names
on paperwork, but finds nothing. Further down the hall she turns down
the left passageway. Behinds her Xander walks up and touches her on the
back. She gasps and spins around, but is very relieved to see him
standing there.

Buffy: Xander! (hugs him tightly) Ohhh...

He hugs her back, and they hold each other for a long moment, then Buffy
lets go.

Buffy: I was so worried, I didn't know if you were okay. The cops
were...

Xander: Yeah, I, I heard them chase you out. I was just coming out of
it. (holds up his arm in a cast) Souvenir.

Buffy: Well, what about the others?

Xander sees two police officers come into the hall behind her.

Buffy: Are they okay?

He grabs her in another tight hug. Buffy goes along with it, but wonders
what's up. When she glimpses the cops she hides her face in Xander's
shoulder while they head down the hall in the direction that she came
in. When the police have gone they separate again.

Buffy: Okay. That was about equal parts protecting me and copping a
feel, right? (smiles)

Xander doesn't smile back. He turns his face down looking sad and very
worried.

Buffy: What is it?

Cut to Willow lying unconscious in a hospital bed. She has a bandaged
cut on her forehead and a black eye, but otherwise seems unhurt. The
camera pans up from her face to Buffy and Xander standing next to the
bed.

From Choices:

Giles: They'll kill her.
Wesley: We're assuming they haven't already.
Buffy: No. No, they know what she means to us. She's too valuable as long as we still have the box. We trade.
Wesley: We can't.
Buffy: No, it's the safest plan. (to Giles) It's the only way, right?
Giles: It might well be.
Buffy: Look, we call the Mayor and arrange a meeting

From Blood Ties:

Buffy and Dawn sitting on the ground together.
BUFFY: Are you okay? Did she hurt you?
DAWN: Why do you care?
BUFFY: Because I love you. You're my sister.
DAWN: No I'm not.
BUFFY: Yes you are. (Lifts Dawn's arm, so we can see her arm and hand are still bloody) Look, it's blood. It's Summers blood.

Buffy presses her hand against the tire-iron wound on her shoulder, wincing a little. She clasps her bloody hand in Dawn's bloody hand.
BUFFY: It's just like mine. It doesn't matter where you came from, or, or how you got here. You are my sister. (pause) There's no way you could annoy me so much if you weren't.

Dawn looks at her for a moment, then hugs her tightly. They both get teary-eyed.
DAWN: I was so scared.
BUFFY: Me too.

From OOMM:

BUFFY: What's happening to you?
RILEY: I go back ... let the government get whimsical with my innards again ... They could do anything that- Best-case scenario, they turn me into Joe Normal, just... (sighs) Just another guy.
BUFFY: And that's not enough for you?
RILEY: It's not enough for *you*.
BUFFY: Why would you say that?
RILEY: Come on. Your last boyfriend wasn't exactly a civilian.
BUFFY: So that's what this is about? You're going to die, all over some macho pissing contest.
RILEY: (shakes his head) It's not about him. It's about us. (Buffy shakes her head, not understanding) You're getting stronger every day, more powerful. I can't touch you. Every day, you're just ... a little further out of my reach.
BUFFY: You wanna touch me? (walks toward him) I'm right here. I'm not the one running away.
RILEY: Not yet.
BUFFY: So you have this all figured out? I'm bailing because you're not in the super club.
RILEY: (shrugs) It's human nature.
BUFFY: (angrily) Don't Psych 101 me. (Riley looks away) Not now. Not after everything that ... Nobody has ever known me the way you do. Nobody. (Riley doesn't look at her) I've opened up to you in ways that I've never opened up to ... God, you're just sitting back there thinking that none of this means anything to me.
RILEY: (still not looking at her) I never said that.
BUFFY: (teary-eyed) Because it obviously doesn't mean anything to you. Do you really think so little of me-
RILEY: Buffy.
BUFFY: No! No. Do you think that I spent the last year with you because you had super powers? If that's what I wanted, then I'd be dating Spike. (quietly) Riley, I need you. (He looks at her, looks apprehensive) I need you with me ... and I need you healthy. But if you wanna throw it all away because you don't trust me, then ... (firmly) then I'm still gonna make you go to that doctor.

I can find plenty of others if you need them.

Heather
05-01-08, 07:59 PM
And, yes, Reign of Fire Bale wore the *exact* same grey sweater with black shoulderpad look with the same color slacks Xander wears almost exclusively, as well as during this issue. Which, based on that photo, is basically nothing like what he wears in the movie.

And, incidentally, where is Buffy getting interest in watching movies like "Reign of Fire" anyway? Or, more to the point, where else could she have gotten it from?

I think you're grasping for straws here, KoC. I saw "RoF" - sad, pathetic little movie despite the prettiness of Mr. Bale - and Christian Bale's character did wear very similar outfits like in the comic (which I just picked up today). My money is solely on the similarity of clothing being a coincidence and nothing more.

And, besides: I don't think it's so much about Buffy having seen "Reign of Fire" as it is her plain feelings of "Oh!-He-So-Sexy!" for the man and showing the "delicate and charming" character Bale's played ("Little Women") and the "badass and rough" character he played in "Reign of Fire." Yeah, they could've gone with a myriad of other sexy characters Christian Bale has played but I think it was just a matter of "Oh, these two polar opposites will be best to get the point across in the fantasy!" on Joss' behalf.


At first I didnt think the shirt Buffy is wearing in 'A Beautiful Sunset' matched the 'crying scratched up Buffy' mainly because the shirt she's wearing when she's crying is yellow, but I looked at the cover of a 'Beautiful Sunset' and sure enough at the bottem of the cover peeking out from under her tank top is a yellow shirt! Or am I wrong?

To me, personally, it doesn't look at all like the same outfit Buffy's wearing on the cover for "A Beautiful Sunset." On the cover, her pants are brown/red and she's wearing a white/grey tanktop and, yes, a yellow tank underneath, as well as - what I'm assuming is - a red bra strap. In the vision from "Anywhere But Here," she's wearing only a yellow tank and blue jeans.

I think it's a little hasty that everyone's assuming that the big reveal will be in the next issue since, honestly, there is next to nothing that I can see to support such a thought. But, of course, I might be behind and may have not read everything you all have - hell, I just got the issue today. :p But, in my opinion, I don't think anyone should get their hopes up that the big traitorous reveal will be in issue 11.

Koos
05-01-08, 09:06 PM
That does depend a little on timing. We don't know enough of the details to use all of that as justification. If it was just a one off and there was need then I might accept this. However, if this is anything more than that, I would take it as Buffy being corrupted too much, too quickly. I really hope it isn't Buffy going dark, as this particular plot device has been used in Buffy and Angel numerous times before and would most likely go completely OTT.

I don't want to see Buffy getting down the dark lane either. It's not really original for one thing and it would be too obvious for another. Hell, even Willow told Buffy that it was the first step.



Koos, I get the strong impression that the only season you ever watched was season 7.


I don't want to get into a discussion about how much of a caring person was during the show. Just reflect on her during S8. And I guess I'm coloring her too much by S7, but it was the latest season before the comics started. And work on her personality needed to be done.

In S7 Buffy has placed herself into the ivory tower, and I haven't seen it change much until now in S8. I saw her asking for advice from Xander when it came to rescuing Willow. She shared her fears and personal life with him, but it is still in an ivory tower setting. Thanks to him she even tries to talk to Dawn. That's the progression that I saw.
But she can't see Giles pov (which admittedly is also Giles to blame for), she can't see that Faith has changed (though admittedly this was fair considering the circumstances), but she is not willing to listen to either of them. She's not willing to reason. She's not willing to try.

But the biggest problem to me is that she still didn't show any kind of involvement with her Slayer sisters, not even trying. She let the others make the connections. Like she doesn't care.

Until now. By robbing a bank she needed to step down from her safe distanced place in the ivory tower. This was something *she* did. She could have done it the easy way and hide herself behind principles and no one would have blamed her. But she didn't because she cared enough to do something without getting pushed by anyone.

Nostalgia
05-01-08, 09:07 PM
In all honesty, the TWAF banner states clearly: "The new big bad is revealed."

I doubt they would already be promoting it two days after the latest issue, and have it be a surprise where it turns out it is only revealed internally to Buffy's eyes only. If that was the case, they wouldn't use it as buy bait.

I am tied between my hopes and thoughts on Buffy right now. I do think it is a bit jumping of the gun so to speak, to say that Buffy is turning down a wrong path, or becoming "dark." The way Joss approached the situation had comedy seeping through it, but not drenched at the same time so there seriousness overcame the comedic undertones. If Buffy was headed towards a "dark" path, I'm sure they would have had her "bad" deed much more exploiting than robbing a bank. To me, it was just Joss showing that Buffy is bending the rules a bit. She's certainly changed in the sense that, she isn't holding back much from humans anymore. The more I read it though, the more I can't see it other than her taking advantage of her power. Of course that's not good, but it wasn't meant to be good.

I honestly would be more concerned with Willow's "bad" deed right now. There hasn't been anything said or explained about what the serpentine creature event was about, so it certainly looked like Willow was dealing with something that was way above her head. The strange thing is that Willow is a powerful person, so it's hard for me to find her in the weak position.

Back with Buffy though.. the only thing that really surprises me is her smile and guiltless attitude during the break-in.. but again, I can only assume that it was done for comedic purposes.. specifically "ooh sparkly!".

As for the scarred photo of Buffy and the cover of "A Beautiful Sunset," we've seen before that the covers of comics aren't exactly spot on with truth. For example, Jeanty's variant for "The Chain." Their job is to convey a meaning or paraphrase a certain scene in the story. Whether or not the clothes are spot-on identical isn't important.. the fact is, is that Scott stated that this upcoming fight will be the biggest fight Buffy's ever gone through. This means that the betrayal is related to Twilight's identity.

Nostalgia
05-01-08, 09:16 PM
But the biggest problem to me is that she still didn't show any kind of involvement with her Slayer sisters, not even trying. She let the others make the connections. Like she doesn't care.

.

Wha.. What?? Buffy has shown that she has some sort of bond with the slayers... if Satsu is falling in love with the chick, I'm sure there's been involvement to a degree.

Even with Buffy not connecting enough, what are you talking about in terms of "others" making connections?

The fact is, as I stated before, no one has made connections with the slayers. Not only Buffy, Xander has been dealing with his job as "watcher", Willow has been jumping back and forth between Buffy and Kennedy, and Giles is out on his own little mission. There has been no caring or involvement with slayers outside of missions and fighting with anyone.

Why do you want to see this so badly, anyway? Buffy, along with the rest of the group have a job to do. There is no need to go on some sort of gal-pal event, because these girls are strong, and know what they're in for. I haven't seen any situation so far where a Slayer has been fearful of her duties, or had even desired to console someone with their own concerns about their future. Therefore it's not really needed right now.

What exactly do you mean she's not listening to anyone? She's been listening and working with both Xander and Willow. In fact, the entire arc and feeling right now that season 8 is portraying is the idea of bringing Buffy back into that core group. The core 3 are as strong as they ever were, especially with Buffy and Xander. Willow clearly shows that she wants to spend more time with them, but her love for Kennedy is drawing her back. She's living two lives right now, one where she's working with her best friends, and another private life with her lover.

Giles is the only one who is really sheltering himself.

modifiedblind
05-01-08, 09:41 PM
I don't see robbing a bank as Buffy going down a dark road, it just shows in times of need you gotta do what you gotta do. She's responsible for all these new slayers and it was clear from Season 6, that Buffy is broke. She needs money to train and house all these girls. She's gotten older and realizes sometimes you have to bend the rules if its for a good cause. What suprised me the most about Buffy in Season 8, is when Buffy and Satsu are getting ready to rescue Willow.

In the background, Xander is directing traffic of his mystics and other Slayers, organizing them for opening the portal. Buffy is giving Satsu a last minute briefing and instruction as they get ready. As she listens, Satsu looks anxious.

BUFFY: Kill any demon you see. Humans you go for the wound unless they get stupid.

SATSU: Humans?

BUFFY: Willow said Amy’s magic was mixed with technology. You fight *with* me, not next to me. Do I need to say that again?

SATSU: No, ma’am.

I don't see this as her going down a dark road, I see her more like Angel or Wesley. She never would have had the thought to kill a human, ever. She knows she's fighting a bigger fight and with that comes the need to bend the rules she wasn't ready to bend before.

P.S. Thanks King for the transcripts :D

Koos
05-01-08, 09:48 PM
Wha.. What?? Buffy has shown that she has some sort of bond with the slayers... if Satsu is falling in love with the chick, I'm sure there's been involvement to a degree.

That's true, we saw that in this issue that there's some involvement. But the idea alone that a Slayer has fallen in love for her isn't much to go on to.


Even with Buffy not connecting enough, what are you talking about in terms of "others" making connections?

Both Willow and Xander didn't want to be called sir for one thing. They just want to be treated like equal persons. That's the first step if you want to connect. Xander has connected with Renee. I know it is not much to go on to, but it is something that has been shown explicitely. With Buffy I haven't seen anything yet.




I haven't seen any situation so far where a Slayer has been fearful of her duties, or had even desired to console someone with their own concerns about their future. Therefore it's not really needed right now.
Renee has already shown the need for emotional support. I am certain that after the attack on their base that there's more need. I missed seeing Buffy checking them out, getting into the hospital, have chat to one of them. Making a joke or having a serious talk. They might be Slayers, but they are also young women who do not have the same experience as the Scoobies have.



Why do you want to see this so badly, anyway? Buffy, along with the rest of the group have a job to do.

I just want to see her step down out of her ivory tower for once. Even if it is for a short moment. Showing herself as someone else than the Queen. That's all. And yes, I am more critical to her than to other characters, Giles included. That is based on how she was in S7.

Nostalgia
05-01-08, 09:55 PM
Both Willow and Xander didn't want to be called sir for one thing. They just want to be treated like equal persons. That's the first step if you want to connect. Xander has connected with Renee. I know it is not much to go on to, but it is something that has been shown explicitely. With Buffy I haven't seen anything yet.



That's different though. Renee and Xander are dealing with a pseudo-relationship. They are interested in each other's appearance and character.. it goes past the fact that she's a slayer. Whether or not she was a slayer, they still would have connected.

And Buffy hates being called maa'm.. she expresses it in her first line.

KingofCretins
05-01-08, 10:02 PM
There aren't many coincidences in comic art -- it's not like wardrobe can just screw up and put them in the same outfit. I choose to be pleased by it :)

Buffy obviously has a pretty close connection to her Alpha Team, and Slayers she hasn't even met think of her as a sort of celebrity, and feel loyalty to her. I don't see what basis there is for assuming she's not connected to them. And I do think a betrayal by one of them, especially one of those closest, would be 'close' and 'unexpected' by her.

I've come up with my list of candidates for betrayal. Three are on the theory that they are Twilight himself, and four are on the theory that they've been working Buffy from the inside. No particular order for these.

Potential betrayal in Twilight's identity --

1. Riley
2. Angel
3. Spike

It's rather bland, one might think, just to list her three most notable romances, especially when two of them are committed to another book published by another company. But IDW has said they aren't going to jerk Joss around, and while it would be pretty non-linear with "After the Fall", I think it's possible. But, the most likely of these is Riley, because of the military ties and Twilight's agenda -- he matches them best if Twilight himself is the betrayal.

Potential betrayal in the form of the mole --

1. Renee
2. Dawn
3. Xander
4. Satsu

Renee and Satsu are the two new Slayers we've gotten the most exposure to, making them the most believable to invest this story in. It would certainly be a twist since we know Satsu is apparently in love with Buffy. Both of them are highly placed enough to know what Buffy is doing and report it to Twilight.

Dawn and Xander... it strains all credibility, especially in Xander's case. I really can't think of a functional, reasonable sounding theory for why they would turn on Buffy, but they are both close, and both unexpected.

I really hope they don't take the only main character who happens to be a guy and turn him evil. I mean, we guys are allowed to have a positive icon in the series, too, right?

sueworld
05-01-08, 11:10 PM
I've come up with my list of candidates for betrayal. Three are on the theory that they are Twilight himself, and four are on the theory that they've been working Buffy from the inside. No particular order for these.

Potential betrayal in Twilight's identity --

1. Riley
2. Angel
3. Spike



Oh you've got to be kidding me right?

Riley maybe, but thats a long shot, but Angel and Spike?!! Firstly they're vampires for goodness sake, magical beings, and they're not even going to be given anything meaningful to do in this series. I cannot see Joss giving them any 'screentime'.

They're currently staring in their own mag right about now so I doubt Joss is going to muck up the marketability of each of them and make them into second fiddle out and out villains in this. Same way as I strongly doubt Willow would be made 'bad' all over again.

I suspect it's going to be either someone completely new, or another 'Amends' payoff, ie using an old villain from the past that half of us have forgotten about. :lol:

KingofCretins
05-01-08, 11:15 PM
Angel or Spike would be a stretch, and I hadn't mentioned it, but one of them needn't be a vampire at this point of the thing -- or might be, but simply have run mad, thinking that ending magic might be the key to becoming human again.

Riley is the most likely to me, because, again -- close and unexpected. Lyle Gorch or Doc or Dracula (yes, he apparently is going to show up at some point, but as Twilight?) some other old villain is neither close nor very unexpected. And, unlike those people, they've at least made a point of dropping his name.

The only names I can think of that could go behind the Twilight mask that would qualify as a meaningful betrayal are Riley, one of the vamps, or Hank. Others have already pointed out that Hank would be lazy writing, and I'm inclined to agree. If Twilight's identity is the betrayal, I'm leaning toward Riley, and I'm starting to convince myself that might be the name in the first place. Wasn't there some interview reference to him being part of Season 8 at some point prior to the season starting?

sueworld
05-01-08, 11:21 PM
It won't be a vamp. To soap opera if nothing else, and these characters sell, so I doubt he muck around with them to that silly extent.

Riley..well if Joss is feeling particularly lazy, then yes, he could cook up some kind of back story as to what has brought him to this. But considering poor old Riley gets painted as the villain in fandom in general, that would seem a really daft thing to do really. Talk about 'over egging it'. *g*

I still see it as someone we really won't expect, or a new character.

All the ones you've mentioned just seem to 'hokey' to me personally.

KingofCretins
05-01-08, 11:25 PM
I'd rather someone for whom there can at least *be* a plausible backstory than someone for whome there really can't be -- specifically Dawn or Xander. What's lazier -- cooking up an explanation such as one would need for Riley or another old character, or simply ignoring the need to explain and charging ahead?

sueworld
05-01-08, 11:33 PM
I maybe talking out of my arse here, but it will not be Dawn of Xander.

Joss may muck about with them now and again, but he still sticks to this whole 'core four' malarkey. For a start neither Dawn or Xander have any motive. Dawns been a giant for gods knows how long and isn't in a position to do anything, and Xander really doesn't seem the type.

For a start what would he gain out of it. I don't think he's after a humiliated or possibly dead Buffy at the end of all this.

KingofCretins
05-01-08, 11:42 PM
This is some new use of malarkey I hadn't previous been familiar with; meaning "the primary ongoing appeal and emotional hook of the entire franchise".

Ditching the traitor thing for a while, am I the only one who thought that Willow kinda dropped Buffy on her ass on purpose?

I said it before, but Joss managed to make me like Kennedy more in two pages than Season 7 did in 12 episodes. Other people have said that "No Future For You" did the same thing for them and Faith. They are now both characters I'd like to see around more.

I was pretty surprised that Dawn slept with her boyfriend's roommate -- she is a Big Girl Now, as the metaphor suggests. I can see why she wouldn't cop to it, since it's an atrociously crappy thing to do. She wasn't even drunk, she just decided to do it. Xander really is awesome with her throughout that scene. Their scenes together have been real highlights so far. Dawn splashing him makes a lot more sense when he asked if she did it to herself, because that obviously hit a nerve with her.

sueworld
05-01-08, 11:55 PM
This is some new use of malarkey I hadn't previous been familiar with; meaning "the primary ongoing appeal and emotional hook of the entire franchise".

..Or could be seen an unnecessarily hackned safety net, that means no real surprises can be expected with these characters. :roll:

As to the whole Dawn subplot, oh god Joss give it up! Some of us find that element boring as hell, and we just don't care...

My only interest in this story is to find out what/who is Twilight, and are we ever going to see Giles do anything meaningful ever again, apart from row with Buffy *sigh*

Weredog
06-01-08, 12:17 AM
Angel or Spike would be a stretch, and I hadn't mentioned it, but one of them needn't be a vampire at this point of the thing -- or might be, but simply have run mad, thinking that ending magic might be the key to becoming human again.

Unless they've lost their souls, I doubt -- actually, I'm willing to say I know -- that Twilight is not Angel or Spike. They would never ignite a world war between demons and humans, costing the lives of many innocents, just so they could be a real boy again.
I don't have a theory on who Twilight is but judging by its dialogue font in 8.09, I'd say it's someone/thing more otherworldly than a vampire.


As to the whole Dawn subplot, oh god Joss give it up! Some of us find that element boring as hell, and we just don't care...

My only interest in this story is to find out what/who is Twilight, and are we ever going to see Giles do anything meaningful ever again, apart from row with Buffy *sigh*

I have to agree with you. :( After the disappointing "Long Way Home" and the mediocre "Chain", I questioned Buffy Season 8. Then came "No Future for You" and it made me laugh at myself for ever questioning it. But "Anywhere But Here" reverted me back to my former doubts... :s
Joss isn't impressing me. I hope he can vindicate himself with "A Beautiful Sunset."

Tom
06-01-08, 12:20 AM
Satsu is the betrayer in my opinion. Put two and two together:

#11 - Buffy's gonna get her ass kicked by Twilight.
#11 - The varient cover features Satsu and Buffy.

During Buffy's fight with Twilight Satsu is going to double team Buffy along side her master. I'm almost sure of it.

Weredog
06-01-08, 12:31 AM
Satsu is the betrayer in my opinion. Put two and two together:

#11 - Buffy's gonna get her ass kicked by Twilight.
#11 - The varient cover features Satsu and Buffy.

During Buffy's fight with Twilight Satsu is going to double team Buffy along side her master. I'm almost sure of it.

Unless that's what they want you to think. ;) Remember how certain everyone was that Xander kissed Buffy because of the closeup panel of his face in 8.03?
Your theory is very legitimate nonetheless, and I'd be okay with it if it does happen. Buffy does seem to have a great deal of faith in her that could blind sight her.

vampmogs
06-01-08, 01:39 AM
If that was the question, there might be an argument. But it's not a question of turning his back on her, it's a question of *joining Twilight*. This man means to kill her. You actually think Xander could help him because he's upset that Buffy robbed a bank? It's ridiculous as soon as it's spoken.

Never stated that Xander would betray her by joining Twilight. Just by turning his back on her because she's gone down a dark route. We are either going to learn that a) Xander knew about the bank robberies and doesn't have a problem with it either or b) he didn't (highly unlikely) and isn't pleased when he finds out.



What this does do is strip her of the integrity that was a large part of her character for seven years of canon. Joss had better have a very good explantion for this.

Kind of like season six for some people? A lot of people lost a great deal of repsect for Buffy in that season as well, but Joss managed to pull it together. It has always been a very big factor with her character, that darkness with her power, how she really could just unleash and go wild with it.


I don't want to see Buffy getting down the dark lane either. It's not really original for one thing and it would be too obvious for another. Hell, even Willow told Buffy that it was the first step.

I'm not sure what you mean by obvious? Shouldn't it be obvious? Shouldn't we be seeing these dark signs that he may be loosing touch with the outside world?


But she can't see Giles pov (which admittedly is also Giles to blame for), she can't see that Faith has changed (though admittedly this was fair considering the circumstances), but she is not willing to listen to either of them. She's not willing to reason. She's not willing to try.

Buffy is about to ask Faith what is going on before she was teleported back. And if you can't blame her for both circumstances then I don't see why your coming against her on this?


But the biggest problem to me is that she still didn't show any kind of involvement with her Slayer sisters, not even trying. She let the others make the connections. Like she doesn't care.

Ah she was very friendly with her Alpha team, that's at least the impression I got.



As to the whole Dawn subplot, oh god Joss give it up! Some of us find that element boring as hell, and we just don't care...

Some of us don't, different strokes.

Heather
06-01-08, 02:17 AM
As for the Dawn storyline, to me it's getting a whole lot more interesting. I agree with the sceptics who say that the GIANT!Dawn storyline is silly, boring, and...well...ridiculous. For me, it definitely was in "The Long Way Home." But the more I reread the comics and, now with what we've learned about what really happened (from issue 10), the more I find it surprisingly deep and interesting - something Dawn hasn't dealt with since season 5, except for one episode ("Potential").

It's not so much that they made her a "slut" because, honestly, I think they made her more human. Like Xander was saying in the issue: she's become a stereotype. To me, that makes her far more human than she ever was before. Thus, making this more interesting.

Now, I still think the concept of having GIANT!Dawn is...well...bizarro, but I've come to grips with it and am not letting it bother me so much since I do think it was a creative way to have her go through this realistic conflict.

Though, what are the chances of Dawn ever having sex again in this lifetime? :p

modifiedblind
06-01-08, 02:27 AM
I have to agree with you. :( After the disappointing "Long Way Home" and the mediocre "Chain", I questioned Buffy Season 8. Then came "No Future for You" and it made me laugh at myself for ever questioning it. But "Anywhere But Here" reverted me back to my former doubts... :s
Joss isn't impressing me. I hope he can vindicate himself with "A Beautiful Sunset."

MEDIOCRE "CHAIN"!!! Weredog... That was a great comic! "Long Way Home" could've been better but they had to start somewhere.

vampmogs
06-01-08, 02:54 AM
I agree about the Dawn storyline, what was revealed was really pretty interesting. And I think just goes to show people shouldn't condemn a story before it has even been fleshed out. I don't know how many times I've seen on boards a member saying "been there done that" implying that Dawn sleeping with Kenny and it going wrong is just a knock off of the Buffy/Angel drama in 'Innocence.' They jumped to conclusions and passed judgement on things without waiting to see how it unfolds, and there assumptions were completely wrong. Dawn didn't sleep with Kenny as they suspected and condemned.

I've been thinking a little more about the bank robbery issue and IMO it really makes perfect sense for Buffy's character. Lets not forget how easily she was convinced to break into that weapons store with Faith, didn't take much convincing at all did it? And lets not forget, "Want. Take. Have. I'm getting it" as she took the knife, the only thing stopping her then was the law and then we come to the place she's reached in season seven when she states "I am the law." Notice the similarities going on here, Buffy began spending a lot of time with Faith, creating this "slayers only attitude" that Willow had problems with and expressed in 'Consequences.' Now we have Buffy sitting up there in the BHC, surrounded by slayers, labelled the 'queen' of slayers, and really just is the law. She has a lot of power, is out of touch with the normal world since Sunnydale went crater and she's really back at that place she was when being influenced by Faith. We even saw signs of it (though she was doing it for his own good) when she walks into the mans house during 'Touched,' snatches his gun and tells him to leave.

I mean did we honestly think that Joss was going to make this all one sided, that Twilight's opinions expressed through Voll in 'The Long Way Home' were going to be completely wrong? They had fears about what a 'master race' would do when they've achieved all their goals, how long before that isn't enough for them? Of course they were pretty black and white, of course there is going to be shades of grey. Buffy *is* a good person, she has a right to defend herself, and no one has the right to kill her or her army because they are a master race. But was anyone really expecting for Joss to make Twilight all wrong and their concerns completely unjustified? I think not.

The issues were brought up in Ats season five, when the gang thought Angel may be going corrupted. Buffy and Angel have always had power, but as Lorne pointed out to the others, not massive amounts of power. Angel got that and they feared it would change him. Buffy has it now, she has such a bigger influence on the world and a army of slayers that appear to be completely smitten by her. She’s a good person but she’s in a new world now, and it almost appears like she’s slightly titillated by changing the rules she’s worked with all those years. She certainly has expressed rethinking the idea of killing humans if it needs to be done, went that way in ‘The Long Way Home’ and now stole something she believed was for her own benefit. It’d be OOC if she had no qualms about this, but she does. She told Satsu to not go for the kill against the humans, but was prepared for it going this way, talked about giving back what the Nazi’s stole and trying to justify her actions, and was thinking about killing humans instead of automatically making said decision without thought. You can see old Buffy and her new world colliding, conflicting and if Buffy is trying to make excuses for her actions she knows deep down they aren’t justified but she did them anyway. And that creates great moral dilemmas.

KingofCretins
06-01-08, 03:38 AM
They jumped to conclusions and passed judgement on things without waiting to see how it unfolds, and there assumptions were completely wrong. Dawn didn't sleep with Kenny as they suspected and condemned.

What she actually did was quite a bit worse, so I'm not sure exactly what this proves about Dawn or about the Scoobies.


I mean did we honestly think that Joss was going to make this all one sided, that Twilight's opinions expressed through Voll in 'The Long Way Home' were going to be completely wrong?

I actually assumed they would be arguably pretty accurate, I just thought it would be realized in much more abstract ways, not so much about the armed robbery.


The issues were brought up in Ats season five, when the gang thought Angel may be going corrupted. Buffy and Angel have always had power, but as Lorne pointed out to the others, not massive amounts of power. Angel got that and they feared it would change him. Buffy has it now, she has such a bigger influence on the world and a army of slayers that appear to be completely smitten by her. She’s a good person but she’s in a new world now, and it almost appears like she’s slightly titillated by changing the rules she’s worked with all those years. She certainly has expressed rethinking the idea of killing humans if it needs to be done, went that way in ‘The Long Way Home’ and now stole something she believed was for her own benefit. It’d be OOC if she had no qualms about this, but she does. She told Satsu to not go for the kill against the humans, but was prepared for it going this way, talked about giving back what the Nazi’s stole and trying to justify her actions, and was thinking about killing humans instead of automatically making said decision without thought. You can see old Buffy and her new world colliding, conflicting and if Buffy is trying to make excuses for her actions she knows deep down they aren’t justified but she did them anyway. And that creates great moral dilemmas.

Excellent point regarding Lorne's insight into power -- this is Buffy's first dose of real power. Even now, I'd say she's done quite a bit better with it than Angel did, but it obviously is having an effect on her outlook. I still believe her when she says "not being bad is what separates (them) from the bad guys", but she's already willing to make exceptions and redraw lines she'd never have even come near in Sunnydale. She didn't prohibit Satsu from killing those men, for instance, she basically told her to avoid it if possible. Buffy went into that mission knowing and fine with the possibility of killing many men. And while she tries to justify the robbery by mentioning recovered Nazi stolen riches, she clearly had no idea they'd find them going in.

I've done some more thinking on this traitor thing, and I really only see three really strong possibilities. This time, I am listing them in order or likelihood to me.

1. Satsu -- what's the one thing we know about Satsu? The first thing that pops into mind? The one thing they've bothered to tell us about her in 10 issues? She's in love with Buffy.

What could make her less suspicious than that?

Maybe she is, or maybe it's just some mystical hoo-doo to fool them, including Willow. But, other small things we know about her --

She was the first to spot the Twilight tattoo in 8.01 -- did she know to look for it?
She appears to be Buffy's "favorite" -- choosing her in 8.04, the hair compliments in 8.02 (again referenced in 8.04). That could set it up as 'close' and 'unexpected', especially if Buffy knows how Satsu feels about her.
Isn't it odd that the one japanese character isn't mentioned in the promotional stuff as being part of the bunch going to Japan?

2. Renee -- Because she's so quiet and highly placed and openly trying to get in with Xander. And, yeah, it may sound 'wrong', but in a medium of nothing but still images, it's hard not to care about things, she is both the same ethnicity *and* resembles Lt. Molter, who is apparently the mole's contact outside the BHC. They may be related, she may even be an unwilling spy because she's got the same 'deal' that Roden thought he had, for clemency from Twilight.

3. Riley -- If you want to show Buffy she's gone off the deep end, or at least should think she has, what more painful revelation than that one of the people she thinks most of considers her a threat and is trying to take her out? I still find it pretty random to name-check Riley in "Anywhere But Here", since the Parker reference really wasn't all that relevant to what Dawn was telling Xander, it's like they made sure to get his name in there.

As far as scenarios, if it's Satsu, I could totally see her and Buffy on patrol, early in the issue, and Buffy trying to have a heart to heart with Satsu about the kiss, and then later in the issue, Satsu turns on her when they meet Twilight.

Maggie
06-01-08, 03:40 AM
I've been thinking a little more about the bank robbery issue and IMO it really makes perfect sense for Buffy's character. Lets not forget how easily she was convinced to break into that weapons store with Faith, didn't take much convincing at all did it? And lets not forget, "Want. Take. Have. I'm getting it" as she took the knife, the only thing stopping her then was the law and then we come to the place she's reached in season seven when she states "I am the law." Notice the similarities going on here, Buffy began spending a lot of time with Faith, creating this "slayers only attitude" that Willow had problems with and expressed in 'Consequences.' Now we have Buffy sitting up there in the BHC, surrounded by slayers, labelled the 'queen' of slayers, and really just is the law. She has a lot of power, is out of touch with the normal world since Sunnydale went crater and she's really back at that place she was when being influenced by Faith.

This part of your argument doesn't really work for me. Buffy played with "want, take, have" -- but then when she saw Faith go off the deep end that put a kabosh on the whole thing in a very big way. Indeed, the season 3 incident underscores what a Big Deal it is that Buffy has crossed this line -- cause in her mind it's already linked with crossing over into unforgivable darkness. So, this really is a big shift. It's worth noting, though that while it's hard to understand just now how she came to make this big shift, it does help with something else that was very strange -- and that's how hard Buffy got with Faith in #8. Cause now we can see all her crap about Faith not really changing is really Buffy projecting onto Faith. Buffy is the one who has essentially taken up the Faith role. No wonder she has issues with Faith.


We even saw signs of it (though she was doing it for his own good) when she walks into the mans house during 'Touched,' snatches his gun and tells him to leave.

But you are right about this. I've never seen much discussion of this -- but it's a detail that always struck me. She *so* didn't care about that guy. So, while I think we need much more story about what gets Buffy to the point of consciously deciding to rob a bank, it's not completely out of the blue. And assuming we get the necessary story, it's quite cool that Joss has picked up on this jarring detail from season 7 that doesn't tend to get mentioned much (that I've seen).

And I Very Much Agree with what you say about Twilight not being all wrong. I love this part of the story. I was rooting for it when we had the dialogue between Willow and Buffy on whether she should kill human attackers. Buffy's response about what made her and the slayers different from the bad guys was not a good response. And now we see that the problem runs more deeply than we might have thought. It'll be interesting to see how Joss works this out such that Buffy might turn out to be a heroine after all. Cause right now, he's painted her very dark in so many ways. The main thing that's surprising me is that Joss seems to want to continue to darken his portrayal of her. There's already a good portion of the fanbase which has come to dislike the central character. So how much further with this does Joss really want to go?

Separate topic: I'm as mystified as anybody about who the betrayer will turn out to be. Though I will say that the solution that would dissatisfy me the most would be if it's one of the slayers (Renee or Satsu). We haven't seen enough of their relationship with Buffy to FEEL (for ourselves) the weight of the betrayal. And it sounds like Buffy looks totally shattered by the betrayal. So for it to work emotionally, it has to be someone who we have experienced as mattering to Buffy. Agree that it's hard to see who that could plausibly be based on what we have so far. But I wouldn't be quick to rule out a scenario in which someone is seen as seeming to betray Buffy but who turns out not to be actually doing it. And the fact that Buffy is clearly off track opens up room for a story like that. Buffy strikes me as someone who would experience opposition as betrayal. And if she really as anguished as she is described -- that anguish might reflect the fact that deep down she knows that she provoked the opposition, and, in fact, is in the wrong.

So lots of interesting and promising things here.

vampmogs
06-01-08, 04:14 AM
What she actually did was quite a bit worse, so I'm not sure exactly what this proves about Dawn or about the Scoobies.

Dawn feels remorse for her actions so I can forgive her on that level. I'm not sure what you mean about the Scoobies though? We really haven't got their reactions to the news and how they saw it have we? I mean I know Xander was being all supportive but I'm not sure that means he hasn't seen her actions in a bad light.


I actually assumed they would be arguably pretty accurate, I just thought it would be realized in much more abstract ways, not so much about the armed robbery.

Well I think the armed robbery is just another piece of the puzzle. So far we've had Buffy wondering about 'killing humans' being driven to the point she almost did out of anger when in a confrontation with Gigi and now the robbery. I think placing them all together, along with hints such as "Buffy you are the dark" and even her slightly blase attitude about the decoy slayers is going to add up to some pretty interesting stuff.

And I think it may have even been you who stated this makes it more plausible than ever that Buffy really did act this way towards Angels team as said by Andrew in 'Damage' which I agree with. Buffy still is emotionally conflicted by these choices, she is still a good person but where seeing her make some pretty OOC choices (OOC in the sense of her usual behaviour within the text and not Joss' inability to write her) which IMO could include her decision to cut Angel off. Though what I think is more interesting about this whole thing is that we as an audience have always kind of automatically assumed Buffy was completely in the right and Angel was in the morally grey area here. Perhaps the two were more alike at this point then we thought?


Excellent point regarding Lorne's insight into power -- this is Buffy's first dose of real power. Even now, I'd say she's done quite a bit better with it than Angel did, but it obviously is having an effect on her outlook.

It is a little too early to tell, but I'm actually not convinced she hasn't done any better with it than Angel. What I find a little uncomfortable is that Buffy is showing signs of acting like Angel did, difference is it was all an act Angel was playing to get into the Circle. Angel's speech to the gang about there being no such thing as good or evil, that morally dubious area was his attempt to fool them all into believing he'd gone dark, but IMO Buffy is showing signs of heading that way. She's really growing more morally grey.


I still believe her when she says "not being bad is what separates (them) from the bad guys", but she's already willing to make exceptions and redraw lines she'd never have even come near in Sunnydale. She didn't prohibit Satsu from killing those men, for instance, she basically told her to avoid it if possible. Buffy went into that mission knowing and fine with the possibility of killing many men. And while she tries to justify the robbery by mentioning recovered Nazi stolen riches, she clearly had no idea they'd find them going in.

I agree completely. And what makes this interesting is that she isn't blind to what is going on, and she makes some good points on her side or the argument as well. I agree also with her "not being bad is what seperates us from the bad guys" and as you know, I'm not always against killing humans in the *buffyverse.* I think she is right to say killing a human doesn't make you bad nescessarily, it is more complicated than that. But at the same time she hadn't given it a great deal of thought, and new deep down the robbery was wrong. So she isn't unaware of her morally questionable actions, she knows she's walking a fine line but she ended up doing them anyway. And that's bloody interesting.


1. Satsu -- what's the one thing we know about Satsu? The first thing that pops into mind? The one thing they've bothered to tell us about her in 10 issues? She's in love with Buffy.

What could make her less suspicious than that?

Not sure what you mean by suspicious exactly? But I agree that giving us this insight into her character means we are meant to focus on her above the others for some reason, which means she is a likely candidate.


She was the first to spot the Twilight tattoo in 8.01 -- did she know to look for it?
She appears to be Buffy's "favorite" -- choosing her in 8.04, the hair compliments in 8.02 (again referenced in 8.04). That could set it up as 'close' and 'unexpected', especially if Buffy knows how Satsu feels about her.
Isn't it odd that the one japanese character isn't mentioned in the promotional stuff as being part of the bunch going to Japan?

Excellent points, they are all very good ideas.



2. Renee -- Because she's so quiet and highly placed and openly trying to get in with Xander. And, yeah, it may sound 'wrong', but in a medium of nothing but still images, it's hard not to care about things, she is both the same ethnicity *and* resembles Lt. Molter, who is apparently the mole's contact outside the BHC. They may be related, she may even be an unwilling spy because she's got the same 'deal' that Roden thought he had, for clemency from Twilight.

The only thing that makes me doubt Renne is the word "close" which they used to describe Buffy's betrayal. Unless they just mean in the sense of 'sorority' and slayer sisters ect. She was always more close to Xander than Buff.


3. Riley -- If you want to show Buffy she's gone off the deep end, or at least should think she has, what more painful revelation than that one of the people she thinks most of considers her a threat and is trying to take her out? I still find it pretty random to name-check Riley in "Anywhere But Here", since the Parker reference really wasn't all that relevant to what Dawn was telling Xander, it's like they made sure to get his name in there.

It's funny you say that because I actually thought it was a little random as well. It stuck out for me when I read it, a possible clue? joss wanting us to start thinking about the character?

And yeah I agree that if we want to show Buffy going off the deep end the best person would be Riley, the guy who told her what an amazing woman she was in 'As You Were.' He has the army background as well. The only thing that makes me question it is why would he go as far as wanting her dead? And Xander and Willow as well?

I got to say something that interests me about the whole Twilight thing is, we don't know how this all came to be. We are missing a year and a half of backstory right now and this issue began giving us some much needed info. We know now that the foundations of their operation was Buffy stealing. We don't know what else will be revealed, what else she may have already done. It sounds odd to say, but what if it is revealed Buffy's kind of brought this all on herself? That she's done worse things we aren't aware of yet, things she doesn't want to share with those close to her?


As far as scenarios, if it's Satsu, I could totally see her and Buffy on patrol, early in the issue, and Buffy trying to have a heart to heart with Satsu about the kiss, and then later in the issue, Satsu turns on her when they meet Twilight.

Yeah that could work. People have said we don't care enough about Satsu to make the betrayal have a big emotional impact. But as far as I'm concerned in one issue Joss could turn that all around. We didn't know anything about the decoy but by the end of that 'The Chain' many fans were in tears after reading it. And over forums people have expressed how much they like Kennedy in this issue than they did throughout the entire seventh season.


This part of your argument doesn't really work for me. Buffy played with "want, take, have" -- but then when she saw Faith go off the deep end that put a kabosh on the whole thing in a very big way.

I see where you are coming from. But I think Buffy is at a different place now. I mean I tend to agree with kind of what she was saying in 'Selfless' but her "I am the law" sounded an awful lot like Faith in 'Consequences' when she says "We don't need the law, we are the law" which if we remember, was something Buffy once protested against. And the "want, take, have" was something Buffy saw push Faith off the deep end after she accidentally killed the guy, but now Buffy is questioning wether or not killing humans is nescessirly a bad thing.


Indeed, the season 3 incident underscores what a Big Deal it is that Buffy has crossed this line -- cause in her mind it's already linked with crossing over into unforgivable darkness. So, this really is a big shift. It's worth noting, though that while it's hard to understand just now how she came to make this big shift, it does help with something else that was very strange -- and that's how hard Buffy got with Faith in #8. Cause now we can see all her crap about Faith not really changing is really Buffy projecting onto Faith. Buffy is the one who has essentially taken up the Faith role. No wonder she has issues with Faith.

Great insight and idea. I love the idea that Buffy went so hard on Faith because she's seen in herself what Faith once was. And the idea that Faith was taking Buffy's role in 'No Future For You' when saving Gigi from Buffy's sure death blow, and that Buffy took on Faith's role, may indeed be a foreshadowing what is to come.


But you are right about this. I've never seen much discussion of this -- but it's a detail that always struck me. She *so* didn't care about that guy. So, while I think we need much more story about what gets Buffy to the point of consciously deciding to rob a bank, it's not completely out of the blue. And assuming we get the necessary story, it's quite cool that Joss has picked up on this jarring detail from season 7 that doesn't tend to get mentioned much (that I've seen).

I've seen it mentioned once or twice but it usually gets pushed under the rug for the Spike/Buffy scene or people being angry over the Scoobs kicking Buffy out. I'm very happy to see that the bank robbery didn't suffer the same fate, the Willow/Buffy stuff was awesome but it's good to see people still saw the gravity of what Buffy was doing and how morally wrong it was.


And I Very Much Agree with what you say about Twilight not being all wrong. I love this part of the story. I was rooting for it when we had the dialogue between Willow and Buffy on whether she should kill human attackers. Buffy's response about what made her and the slayers different from the bad guys was not a good response.

I thought her response actually made great sense, but the way she said it sort of implied she hadn't gave it a great deal of thought which wasn't good.


And now we see that the problem runs more deeply than we might have thought. It'll be interesting to see how Joss works this out such that Buffy might turn out to be a heroine after all. Cause right now, he's painted her very dark in so many ways. The main thing that's surprising me is that Joss seems to want to continue to darken his portrayal of her. There's already a good portion of the fanbase which has come to dislike the central character. So how much further with this does Joss really want to go?

I think what the difference is here, at least for me, is that at the same time as her being very dark right now, she is still completely likeable. She is being very affectionate to her friends, generally emotive and not cold and hard and she is making jokes. She is witty Buffy again, she has that spark back in her. I actually think this is intentional. Joss has tried to make the audience fall in love with her again, I never stopped loving but I'm enjoying her more now than I did in season six or seven, but is going to make her dark at the same time. I think it is the only way he could successfuly pull off a "Buffy goes dark" storyline without the fanbase just completely hating her guts and siding with the Scoobs. If he keeps her this likeable right now, but this bloody interesting, then I know I'll sit on the fence in many ways which is probably what he wants.


Separate topic: I'm as mystified as anybody about who the betrayer will turn out to be. Though I will say that the solution that would dissatisfy me the most would be if it's one of the slayers (Renee or Satsu). We haven't seen enough of their relationship with Buffy to FEEL (for ourselves) the weight of the betrayal.

As I said to King, I think Joss has the ability to make us care in that issue alone. Like he did with many fans and the decoy slayer in 'The Chain.'

ThePoet's<3
06-01-08, 04:18 AM
Ditching the traitor thing for a while, am I the only one who thought that Willow kinda dropped Buffy on her ass on purpose?

No - after re-reading the comic again I feel more uncomfortable about Willow's powers. In the one panel where Tichajt is telling her about what Twilight intends to do and what Buffy will do he says,


"The end of course. Of the struggle, of the hellmouths...the final triumph of the base humans over the demons. It's your life's goal achieved, slayer. The death of Magic."

Willow is the only face shown in the panel with the last sentence, "Death of Magic". There's almost an undercurrent of veiled malevolance about her.

Are we sure that the Betrayer and Twilight might not be one and the same person??

Because in the panel showing Buffy's betrayal she is more than just physical pain. She seems to be in more pain from the emotional affect it is causing. That's why I believe the Betrayer has to be someone very close to her for it to be so painful.


Satsu is the betrayer in my opinion. Put two and two together:

#11 - Buffy's gonna get her ass kicked by Twilight.
#11 - The varient cover features Satsu and Buffy.

During Buffy's fight with Twilight Satsu is going to double team Buffy along side her master. I'm almost sure of it.

Satsu does seem to be more the mole than anyone else. And I still point to her Judas kiss in the 2nd or 3rd issue. But somehow - as dependent as Buffy is on Satsu as her "right-hand Slayer" I just don't see her being in so much pain if Satsu is the Betrayer...
________________________________

KoC I disagree about the vampires. If all of this is going on around the time "After the Fall" is happening - they are much too busy (or in Spike's case he's gettin' busy wid it) to worry about Buffy at this time. The vampires aren't a part of this at this time.

However - I think RILEY is #1 suspect. You know how much I dislike him after "As You Were" - I could totally believe Twilight is Riley. Before the Innitiative was broken up he was targeted to be the next "Adam". The Professor even programmed them to be "brothers". And Riley had been given drugs (vitamins) to trigger his cooperation with the mission.

From the beginning of S8 Twilight has "reeked" with Innitiative-like comparisons. And in AYW Riley was still a part of some type of Secret Military Demon Hunting Ring. Also, when Buffy contacted him to get help to remove Spike's chip it was a "big secret" operation he was involved with at that time as well.

OOoooo... I would so LOVE for it to be Riley and I hope she kicks the ever-livin' :cussing: out of him!! :twak: :fryingpan: :eviltail:

KingofCretins
06-01-08, 04:28 AM
You know how much I dislike him after "As You Were" - I could totally believe Twilight is Riley.

Him and his accurate statements about Spike ;)

Well, we know one thing -- if Riley is Twilight, you won't have much trouble convincing the vampire 'shippers, and that's 50% of your audience right there.

I agree with vampmogs, Joss can probably sell the weight of a betrayal by one of the Slayers within the issue itself, if it's Satsu, if it's Renee.

sueworld
06-01-08, 04:35 AM
Him and his accurate statements about Spike ;)

Well, we know one thing -- if Riley is Twilight, you won't have much trouble convincing the vampire 'shippers, and that's 50% of your audience right there.

I agree with vampmogs, Joss can probably sell the weight of a betrayal by one of the Slayers within the issue itself, if it's Satsu, if it's Renee.

Well you'd have trouble with me for a start. As I said earlier turning poor old Riley into the bad guy is like shooting fish in a barrel. Joss can do better then that.....I hope.

And yes, I believe it'll be a Slayer, but in my opinion that won't have as much weight behind it as we barely know the women, let alone care about them the same way as if it was one of the characters who've already have a 'fleshed out' back story in the TV show.

ThePoet's<3
06-01-08, 04:44 AM
Well you'd have trouble with me for a start. As I said earlier turning por old Riley into the bad guy is liking shooting fish in a barrel. Joss can do better then that.....I hope.

Oh c'mon Sue - it's RILEY!! Here fishy, fishy, fishy...:D


And yes, I believe it'll be a Slayer, but in my opinion that won't have as much weight behind it as we barely know the women, let alone care about them the same way that we'd care if it was one of the characters who already have a 'fleshed out' back story in the TV show.

That's exactly what I mean. I just don't see Buffy being in that much pain over the current Slayers in residence. Of course she would be disappointed but not what we see in the panel. Which makes me think it will be someone closer to her than a Slayer.

KingofCretins
06-01-08, 04:47 AM
Well you'd have trouble with me for a start. As I said earlier turning por old Riley into the bad guy is liking shooting fish in a barrel. Joss can do better then that.....I hope.

See, I wouldn't expect for you to be unhappy with any given plot development this season.

*lets the deadpan sautee*

I don't exactly think Riley makes sense, as such, just more sense than any Scooby -- right now, all any of us is doing is just guessing for something that makes sense.


And yes, I believe it'll be a Slayer, but in my opinion that won't have as much weight behind it as we barely know the women, let alone care about them the same way that we'd care if it was one of the characters who already have a 'fleshed out' back story in the TV show.

Vampmogs made the correct point about the decoy in "The Chain". I got the impression during that discussion that most of the audience became very invested in her character throughout that issue. Joss is capable of creating that significance to these characters, and if it is, for instance, Satsu, I think a scenario like the one I threw out would be a perfect place to do that -- Buffy having this awkward conversation about Satsu's feelings, telling her how much she's come to trust her, how much she needs her around and doesn't want to hurt her, etc. And then she turns on her. Buffy's never had an apprentice before, a protege, and Satsu appears to have become that.

sueworld
06-01-08, 04:50 AM
Oh c'mon Sue - it's RILEY!! Here fishy, fishy, fishy..

Nah, poor old Riley. He's been turned into the 'boogey man' by half the fandom already, and I'm hoping Joss can show a bit more originality then that.

Strangely enough I'm a Spike fan that doesn't hate the character, and I understand where he was coming from in season 5.


Vampmogs made the correct point about the decoy in "The Chain". I got the impression during that discussion that most of the audience became very invested in her character throughout that issue. Joss is capable of creating that significance to these characters, and if it is, for instance, Satsu, I think a scenario like the one I threw out would be a perfect place to do that -- Buffy having this awkward conversation about Satsu's feelings, telling her how much she's come to trust her, how much she needs her around and doesn't want to hurt her, etc. And then she turns on her. Buffy's never had an apprentice before, a protege, and Satsu appears to have become that.

*groan* It'll be her then by the sounds of it.

KingofCretins
06-01-08, 04:53 AM
See, I love Riley, and think the best thing he'd bring if he was Twilight would be the sense of moral ambiguity -- the idea that the thing Gen. Voll was saying aren't completely nuts, that the Slayers may honestly be perceived as a threat.

vampmogs
06-01-08, 04:56 AM
Well you'd have trouble with me for a start. As I said earlier turning poor old Riley into the bad guy is like shooting fish in a barrel. Joss can do better then that.....I hope.

Depends why he does it. If you've seen me post in the Riley Thread you'll know that I love standing up for the guy, always have done. But if there is a good reason behind it, and not just because the fandom hate him for being nice, weird I know, then I don't mind. Kind of like the sit with Buffy, if Joss can put across a believeable story in which she goes dark, which I believe he can given what we've now seen and had already known about her, then I'm all for it even if she is my fave character.

I just hope that fans don't start using whatever becomes of him now as a reason to justify some pretty uneeded hostility towards him at times from the past. Because the Riley of the past wouldn't do this, if he is Twilight they'll be a reaoson we aren't aware of yet as to why.

A question for you both;


And yes, I believe it'll be a Slayer, but in my opinion that won't have as much weight behind it as we barely know the women, let alone care about them the same way as if it was one of the characters who've already have a 'fleshed out' back story in the TV show.



That's exactly what I mean. I just don't see Buffy being in that much pain over the current Slayers in residence. Of course she would be disappointed but not what we see in the panel. Which makes me think it will be someone closer to her than a Slayer.

Did either of you feel anything for the decoy slayer in 'The Chain?' If so, do you think it is possible Joss could work wonders again in the next ep?

sueworld
06-01-08, 04:56 AM
See, I love Riley, and think the best thing he'd bring if he was Twilight would be the sense of moral ambiguity -- the idea that the thing Gen. Voll was saying aren't completely nuts, that the Slayers may honestly be perceived as a threat.

Yes, but as he used to date one I think he'd be a bit more understanding, don't you?

Also, the dialog so far of the masked character doesn't really sound like him at all. Unless Riley's had a 'phantom of the Opera' monster make-over'.

vampmogs
06-01-08, 05:00 AM
Also, the dialog so far of the masked character doesn't really sound like him at all. Unless Riley's had a 'phantom of the Opera' monster make-over'.

I suspect the dialogue is as much of a mask as his actual mask if you get what I'm saying. It is likely he's sounding this way to keep his identity a secret. I couldn't tell if the strange font they used was a way to try and show that he sounded weird through the mask or just very ah.. articulate.. or demonic. Not sure?

sueworld
06-01-08, 05:03 AM
Did either of you feel anything for the decoy slayer in 'The Chain?'

The short answer is no, not really. You cannot realistically believe that an entire audience can feel much for a one off character then they would with one they've grown to know over a period of time.

Even Joss has difficulty pulling that one off. He'd have to take a new character and build them up over several issues for that to truly work. Like he would in a TV series.

vampmogs
06-01-08, 05:08 AM
The short answer is no, not really. You cannot realistically believe that an entire audience ban feel so much for a one off character then they would with one they've grown to know over a period of time.

I never said that. But a lot of the audience did feel for that decoy slayer in the span of one issue, some members here and elsewhere even cried they were moved by her story that much. My point is, if Joss were able to do such a thing, I think he could make us care to the point we'd find it believable Buffy was hurt if a slayer who we already know, like Satsu, was revealed to betray her.

Of course a character we've known for years would have had more of an impact, but then I'm pretty sure you'd have the other half of the audience say it was terrible they betrayed Buffy and Joss shouldn't have done it. So really which one is the lesser of two evils?

Personally I'm prepared for anything, I trust Joss. Even if it turned out to be Xander or Willow I'd wait, I have faith he'd have a good reason for doing it. I'm still thinking it could be after Jeanty's interview when he refers to something Joss told him would be happening, and Jeanty protested as a fan he couldn't, in which Joss replied "I can and you'll see how I can." When Joss truly believes in something he makes it work, like 'OMWF' like 'Hush' like the complete retcon that Spike was in love with Buffy the whole time that a lot of the fandom have took on board. I just believe he'll be able to do it.

KingofCretins
06-01-08, 05:12 AM
Sue, I think the only thing you're emotionally invested in about Season 8 so far is not liking it, no offense. I don't think you really have a finger on the overall audience to these comics. Joss can't write, and clearly isn't writing, these books as though nobody really cares about any of the new elements.

I like Twilight's dialogue, and his look. He reminds me of some of the great comic villains -- particularly Ra's al Ghul, Lex Luthor, Bane. Those are all good places to be in terms of being a scary, powerful, and compelling villain.

Mogs, I think Riley is a character they could show is Twilight just for the "huh? Wha?" factor and then explain it in monologue or in exposition in later issues. But I think you and I are on the same page with it, you can see the basic shape of his motivations intuitively, it's just the specifics that would need filled out. I think the same is true of Renee or Satsu.

The only people who still seem like they should be out of this discussion are the Scoobies.

sueworld
06-01-08, 05:15 AM
Personally I'm prepared for anything, I trust Joss. Even if it turned out to be Xander or Willow I'd wait, I have faith he'd have a good reason for doing it. I'm still thinking it could be after Jeanty's interview when he refers to something Joss told him would be happening, and Jeanty protested as a fan he couldn't, in which Joss replied "I can and you'll see how I can." When Joss truly believes in something he makes it work, like 'OMWF' like 'Hush' like the complete retcon that Spike was in love with Buffy the whole time that a lot of the fandom have took on board. I just believe he'll be able to do it.

*g* Spike eh?

Anyhoo, I hope that he does manage it, because there's a fanbase out there who don't seem to be as impressed or invested in this series as your good self.

I'm one of them as you may already have gathered. *g* and so I hope he manages to make me really feel for a OOAK character that the story will require.

Maggie
06-01-08, 05:16 AM
Vampmogs made the correct point about the decoy in "The Chain". I got the impression during that discussion that most of the audience became very invested in her character throughout that issue. Joss is capable of creating that significance to these characters, and if it is, for instance, Satsu, I think a scenario like the one I threw out would be a perfect place to do that -- Buffy having this awkward conversation about Satsu's feelings, telling her how much she's come to trust her, how much she needs her around and doesn't want to hurt her, etc. And then she turns on her. Buffy's never had an apprentice before, a protege, and Satsu appears to have become that.

A bit hard for this point to weigh much with me, cause I *didn't* get much invested in the decoy slayer. But my point isn't so much that the audience has to be made to care about the betrayer -- it's that we have to see that Buffy has come to care so much about him/her that it would be totally devastating to her to be betrayed by him/her. Also, Robin says the person closest to you. To me, none of the new slayers slot into either position now. And given that we now know that the 'betrayer' is going to be someone who can break her heart and who is 'closest', any effort by Joss to show a slayer moving into that slot in the next few issues can't work to give the right pay-off. Cause we'd KNOW the minute anybody starts moving closer to Buffy that said person is also the 'betrayer'. So we couldn't feel the relationship as 'real'. I just don't see how Joss could emotionally pay-off what he's set up here with any of the slayers.

Riley is not a bad non-Scooby bet. But he doesn't fit the 'closest' criterion either. Nor would I fully buy Buffy as DEVASTATED by his betrayal.

Spike and Angel are the best non-Scooby candidates for 'closest' and ability to devastate. I actually had a fanfic idea wherein Spike would seem to be betraying Buffy (though of course not really doing it) that actually fits in with the "Buffy is over the line" scenario. The main reason to think it's not going to go this way is that everyone and their dog seems to be 100% sure that neither vampire is going to have a big role in the comics.

And that seems to me to leave the Scoobies. Willow and Giles appear to be out of the running. So we've got Xander or Dawn. Take your pick. You are, of course, totally right that it's hard to see any story line that works this way for either of them. But then, the people for whom the story line might work better violate the other criteria. So we seem to be at a pure dead end.

Either you are right, and I am wrong and Joss will somehow construct the tale so that we will believe that Riley/Satsu/Renee is 'closest' to Buffy and has the ability to totally devastate her.

Or I am right, and you are wrong, and Joss will somehow construct the tale so that we will believe that Dawn/Xander at least seems to betray Buffy.

Probably that means that it's some whole other third possibility!!

sueworld
06-01-08, 05:22 AM
Sue, I think the only thing you're emotionally invested in about Season 8 so far is not liking it, no offense. I don't think you really have a finger on the overall audience to these comics. Joss can't write, and clearly isn't writing, these books as though nobody really cares about any of the new elements.


I can only realy talk about fandom on lj (where the Buffy fandom is still at it's most active) and where it seems like nearly everyday someone posts that they're dropping the comics, citing various reasons for doing so.

On Whedonesque I noted that a few posters on there where pretty much saying the same sort of thing. Some in quite strong terms too.

vampmogs
06-01-08, 05:29 AM
Mogs, I think Riley is a character they could show is Twilight just for the "huh? Wha?" factor and then explain it in monologue or in exposition in later issues. But I think you and I are on the same page with it, you can see the basic shape of his motivations intuitively, it's just the specifics that would need filled out. I think the same is true of Renee or Satsu.

Well, yeah I agree. Which is why I'm hoping that whoever it is revealed to be won't have the audience jumping up and down going "that doesn't make sense!" ect. I can say quite confidently now, no way in hell will everything be explained about whoever Twilight really is in the issue he is revealed, there just isn't enough room or time for that. But it will be revealed, and IMO it'll make sense. And what I personally find so damn interesting is that I'm not sure I'm even going to dislike whoever it is, I have a feeling they may have a few viewpoints that I actually will have a hard time disagreeing with, and of course some I definitely do. But same could be said for Buffy right now, and all it's done is make me love the gal even more.


The only people who still seem like they should be out of this discussion are the Scoobies.

Mmm, still not ruling it out King :lol: But as I said, if it was Xander or Willow I think there will be a good reason for it, and if anything the betrayal will be through Buffy's POV more so than our own. Someone said earlier that she'll bring about her own betrayal, that idea I just love.


*g* Spike eh?

Notice how I picked my words very carefully :) I said "that a lot" not "all" lol. But just because I don't like it or have trouble buying it, in no way makes me think the fandom are in the same boat. I know I'm in the minority there, which means Joss was successful, I just hope I'm in the majority if he makes another bold move.

I don't mean to offend anyone by saying this. But I think at some point Joss has to stop trying to please a portion of the fandom who just aren't going to be pleased, and start focusing on the people who are. He'll never win that battle.


A bit hard for this point to weigh much with me, cause I *didn't* get much invested in the decoy slayer. But my point isn't so much that the audience has to be made to care about the betrayer -- it's that we have to see that Buffy has come to care so much about him/her that it would be totally devastating to her to be betrayed by him/her. Also, Robin says the person closest to you. To me, none of the new slayers slot into either position now. And given that we now know that the 'betrayer' is going to be someone who can break her heart and who is 'closest', any effort by Joss to show a slayer moving into that slot in the next few issues can't work to give the right pay-off. Cause we'd KNOW the minute anybody starts moving closer to Buffy that said person is also the 'betrayer'. So we couldn't feel the relationship as 'real'. I just don't see how Joss could emotionally pay-off what he's set up here with any of the slayers.

"The person closest to you" is something very hard to live up to, I'll give you that. Which is another reason I'm just not ruling out the Scoobs. I still think Dawn may have done something incredibly stupid which is seen as 'betrayal' out of feeling so neglected and hurt that Buffy is with all her new "slayer sisters."


I can only realy talk about fandom on lj (where the Buffy fandom is still at it's most active) and where it seems like nearly everyday someone posts that they're dropping the comics, citing various reasons for doing so.

On Whedonesque I noted that a few posters on there where pretty much saying the same sort of thing. Some in quite strong terms too.

I read through all the comments on Whedonesque today and the number of positive ones far out-weighed the negative, same goes for the 'After the Fall' discussions as well. Joss isn't going to please everyone, but I've actually found that people post more about things they don't like then they actually do, we like to complain it's what we fans do :) And the sales of the comics are outstanding so there are a lot of people out, not voicing their opinions, who love it as well.

KingofCretins
06-01-08, 05:31 AM
And right here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representativeness_heuristic) is the problem with using that as guidance. Also, there is the basic principle of customer service -- people don't call or write to say how much they liked the product, they call or write to complain. They *expect* it to be good, so they don't reach out and give feedback when they get what they expect. So, that right there explains the likelihood of finding negativity on Livejournal. And, anyway... it ain't the Bronze, it is not in any way legitimized as the voice of the fan.

For all their whinging, the books fly off the shelves, appreciate in value, continue to draw praise both in the comic medium and across other media (several mentions in EW, for instance, since it started).

The point is... you don't write with your critics worst expectations in mind. That's insanity. You don't listen to malcontents declare that they don't care about the new characters you've taken time to develop -- Buffy was a new character that nobody cared about once, too.

sueworld
06-01-08, 05:36 AM
I can see Joss making one of the Scoobs do something stupid, which results in unfortunate problems for Buffy and maybe steamrolling into being seen as an act of betrayal.

I mean Xanders done some thoughtless and daft things in the past (calling up the demon in OMWF for a start) but somehow I can't see him consciously trying to drop Buffy in it to that degree.

Dawn neither for that matter.



For all their whinging, the books fly off the shelves, appreciate in value, continue to draw praise both in the comic medium and across other media (several mentions in EW, for instance, since it started).

Well judging by the latest figures sales have dropped by 14%, so take that anyway you like.

vampmogs
06-01-08, 05:41 AM
I can see Joss making one of the Scoobs do something stupid, which results in unfortunate problems for Buffy and maybe steamrolling into being seen as an act of betrayal.

If it were to be one of the Scoobies, that IMO is the most likely scenario. I could also see them having vastly different opinions on something and going the opposite ways, even against eachother. I mean they are definitely setting something up with Buffy now, the "Buffy you are the dark line" is being fully realised now if you look back at everything we've seen of her thus far.



Dawn neither for that matter.

I've always seen Dawn as being easily consumed in the heat of the moment, wether it be cutting herself, lighting her room on fire, spilling everything about the Key to Ben ect. We know she's had some problems between her and Buffy, she doesn't think Buffy cares about her and thinks that Buffy doesn't even want her there. I'm just not ruling it out that Dawn could have done something really stupid in the heat of the moment, Twilight seems to be a great manipulator, with big repercussions she may not have even realised yet.

I could also see it as being possible that a Scooby betrayal reveal could be the thing that pushes Buffy further into the dark. I mean, we saw just how dark she looked after Giles and how angry she got when she thought Faith was betraying her.

ThePoet's<3
06-01-08, 05:43 AM
That's why I think if - let's say - Xander is the one who betrays Buffy, it's not through malicious intent or to be intentionally destroying. He will feel it is in Buffy's best interest - or it will turn out that it was the best move to make in the grander picture.

Dawn - Well similar to Xander except it would probably be more from inadvertantly screwing up royally.

But Willow... I'm not sure that would apply to Willow. There's been bad blood between she and Buffy before and now... Frankly she scares me a little. And especially after what we learned in this issue.

The vamps - again - I see them so far removed from this situation right now - unless we get some clues in "After the Fall".

sueworld
06-01-08, 05:46 AM
If it were to be one of the Scoobies, that IMO is the most likely scenario. I could also see them having vastly different opinions on something and going the opposite ways, even against eachother. I mean they are definitely setting something up with Buffy now, the "Buffy you are the dark line" is being fully realised now if you look back at everything we've seen of her thus far.


Yeah, I could see it happening along those lines as well.


I've always seen Dawn as being easily consumed in the heat of the moment, wether it be cutting herself, lighting her room on fire, spilling everything about the Key to Ben ect. We know she's had some problems between her and Buffy, she doesn't think Buffy cares about her and thinks that Buffy doesn't even want her there. I'm just not ruling it out that Dawn could have done something really stupid in the heat of the moment, Twilight seems to be a great manipulator, with big repercussions she may not have even realised yet.


Well if they're going to try that they better 'de-big' her first, or she's not going to be in a position to get anything done. *g*


The vamps - again - I see them so far removed from this situation right now - unless we get some clues in "After the Fall".


I'd give that a 1000-1 chance of that happening I'm afraid.

KingofCretins
06-01-08, 05:46 AM
Well judging by the latest figures sales have dropped by 14%, so take that anyway you like.

I take it as what it is -- about the equivalent after 9 or 10 issues of a $50 million opening weekend box office only dropping 14% in the second week. Awesome news. Most comic launches are failing at this point with something like only 40% of their first issue sales. So, thanks for the positive news! ;)

The major problem with having Xander be, intentionally or not, the betrayer is... well, dammit, look at my usertitle.

No More Buttmonkey!!!

Maggie
06-01-08, 05:48 AM
If it were to be one of the Scoobies, that IMO is the most likely scenario. I could also see them having vastly different opinions on something and going the opposite ways, even against eachother. I mean they are definitely setting something up with Buffy now, the "Buffy you are the dark line" is being fully realised now if you look back at everything we've seen of her thus far.



I've always seen Dawn as being easily consumed in the heat of the moment, wether it be cutting herself, lighting her room on fire, spilling everything about the Key to Ben ect. We know she's had some problems between her and Buffy, she doesn't think Buffy cares about her and thinks that Buffy doesn't even want her there. I'm just not ruling it out that Dawn could have done something really stupid in the heat of the moment, Twilight seems to be a great manipulator, with big repercussions she may not have even realised yet.

I could also see it as being possible that a Scooby betrayal reveal could be the thing that pushes Buffy further into the dark. I mean, we saw just how dark she looked after Giles and how angry she got when she thought Faith was betraying her.

Gives me chills just thinking about it. And I agree that if it is either Dawn or Xander it will be anything but a line where they just went evil or something. It'll be inadvertent; or maybe it will be opposition that will feel like betrayal to Buffy; or some combination.

sueworld
06-01-08, 05:50 AM
I take it as what it is -- about the equivalent after 9 or 10 issues of a $50 million opening weekend box office only dropping 14% in the second week. Awesome news. Most comic launches are failing at this point with something like only 40% of their first issue sales. So, thanks for the positive news!


Yes, but as someone on Whedonesque pointed out, if that keeps on over a long period of time, it's not so clever.

Sadly when it comes to Joss I don't think poor old Xander has a say in being someones 'Buttmonkey' or not really. *g*


My goodness, would you like buy a round of champagne for LiveJournal if Season 8 ended up getting cancelled or something?

*snorts* If folks really stop buying it on there, then they won't even notice it's gone I'm afraid, let alone celebrate the fact.