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View Full Version : What's the best and/or most powerful demonstration of love in the Buffyverse?



MikeB
30-11-14, 07:14 AM
For the TV Whedonverse -- including Serenity -- I've always considered the best and most powerful demonstration of love to be what Simon Tam did for River Tam and that River Tam felt guilty regarding what Simon gave up for her.

But only including the Buffyverse, I'm not sure.

Thinking on it just now, in ways I consider the best and/or most powerful demonstration of love to be that between Buffy Anne Summers and Willow Rosenberg given what they've done for each other, given what they've forgiven what each other has done, etc.

Stoney
01-12-14, 02:14 PM
It is difficult to judge something like this because something small can have quite deep meaning and significance - Buffy holding Willow's hands in STSP and offering her strength, Xander standing in front of Willow in S6, Buffy going to rescue Spike in Showtime, Buffy sacrificing herself for Dawn, they all really touch me as very moving moments that are driven by love. Another moment that really stands out to me in the wider verse is Darla's sacrifice for Connor, that was incredibly powerful. I wouldn't really want to put them in an order though because they all vary in weight for the different people at different times, but there are definitely some like this that stand out.

Cordelia
04-01-15, 10:48 PM
As Stoney pointed out even the smallest packages can cause a huge impact and each moment that can be named applies to different characters, relationships and situations that have nothing to so with other characters so I'm not sure any can be labeled as more significant than another.

Something however that stood out to me above most else was the ATS episode You're Welcome.

Although I'm probably the only one in existence who has yet to see the entire 5th season I'm using a spoiler tag anyway because I have to give away a significant revelation in the episode to express my opinion.

Cordelia letting go of the little life her vegetative body had been grasping on to for to give Angel his purpose back and to arm him for that final battle later on. I read it as her making that choice anyway since she both said that she knew Angel would be lost without her and that the Powers owed her one. Considering how she accepted having to become part demon to keep the visions like it was nothing, I could see her making this choice with the same needlessness for hesitation.

Another instance was in the BTVS episode 'Grave', the season 6 finale when Xander reached out with his whole heart and pulled Willow out of ultimate evil mode with three words: 'I love you'.


Another moment that really stands out to me in the wider verse is Darla's sacrifice for Connor, that was incredibly powerful.

I'll agree since the alternative was to spend eternity with a dead baby inside her since she wasn't in the right condition to get him out the natural way and eventually he would have suffocated. Though just about any mother would sacrifice her life for her child's.

Stoney
05-01-15, 12:59 AM
I would say a lot of mother's would sacrifice themselves for their unborn child although I'm not confident 'just about any' is true. Self preservation is also an instinctive driver and some women don't feel connected to their unborn child or actually feel like their body has been invaded. Darla was played to be affected by Connor's soul, but she still had a demon in her too and we see through Angel in particular that having a soul doesn't stop that struggle. I think what she did was significant.

Generally I think people assume everyone knows the plots of the two main shows. You do find that people often put spoilers around the comic information in the main show threads, but not much else. I don't think I remember to do that even if I'm honest. If you want to put anything under spoilers though, which often happens for posting pictures just for space, then you can type at the beginning and then repeat that with a / after the first bracket to indicate it is the end of the spoiler section. That way people have to click to view that part. So it looks like this... [spoiler]and you can close it by clicking on the spoiler button again.
If you hit 'reply with quote' you can see the full coding. If you ever want to check how something looks before posting then click 'go advanced' and you can keep previewing your amends until you are happy to 'post'. There are a load of emoticons under go advanced as well.

Cordelia
05-01-15, 05:56 AM
Stoney, thank you for letting me know that this forum has spoiler tags, I corrected that.

I'm agreeing that what Darla did was significant, while I do acknowledge that she was a soulless being who should not have been able to love that child right there is where some of the strength is lost. She knew that very well, that she was only able to feel anything for him through his own soul and that once he was born and separated from her body that would be lost. Either way she would not have been able to be a mother to him so she didn't have much of a choice.

The point however is that she wanted to give him a life even knowing she could not be a part of it and that is certainly significant.

Stoney
05-01-15, 08:43 AM
As I remember it, and I only finished watching all of AtS for the first time about a year ago so I may be mistaken, she feared that it all came from the baby's soul and that she wouldn't care once he was born. I think considering her wish to terminate the pregnancy at first there is a good chance she was right but it could have been her own growing feelings for him at play, she just understandably didn't want to risk that.

Cordelia
05-01-15, 09:34 PM
I think considering her wish to terminate the pregnancy at first there is a good chance she was right but it could have been her own growing feelings for him at play,

Vampires can not feel, including love due to their soulless condition so I think it was pretty clear (to the viewer I mean) that it was Connor's soul and that she wouldn't care for him once he was born. Recall how there was no paternal feeling in Angelus during that saga of season 4. We also get a glimpse of this in mid-late season 3 when Angel's pig's blood had been spiked with Connor's (human blood).

To be honest my first and last viewing of the Darla pregnancy arc was two years ago technically (2013) but now that you say that she only speculated that it was his soul that sounds a bit more right than what I thought I remembered and it makes more sense. Doesn't change the point though.

Stoney
05-01-15, 09:54 PM
It's debated repeatedly if vampires can love and established they are driven by desires and it is more the degrees that are discussed. It doesn't mean the love is selfless or that it isn't obsessive, but some humans are the same in that and the show certainly doesn't establish that vampires can't feel. Most of Spike's story suddenly makes no sense if that were the case. Why abandon his plan in Lie to Me just to save Dru? Why stay behind to look after Dawn when Buffy died? Why was he so broken up by her death? Why did he feel such disgust at his mum making advances on him? And not just Spike either, Angel's emotional response to his father on being turned makes no sense at all if stopped being able to feel. His continued reaction to Buffy and anger over making him feel when he loses his soul wouldn't exist if he didn't have emotional responses. James and Elizabeth are shown as another couple of vampires who are devoted to each other. I do think that soulless creatures have limitations but they are far from emotionless.

Cordelia
06-01-15, 09:46 AM
I'll agree ATS in particular argues several times the claim that vampires can't feel. The instance that stood out to me other than The Prodigal as you mentioned was in Waiting in the Wings when Angel shares that ballet 'Gizelle' moved him as Angelus to tears.

It is pretty well established however that they can't really love. Spike by looking at how there is really no contrast when he gets a soul alone reads to me as just very flawed writing. Don't forget though that he was mostly sexually drawn to Buffy which as a physical urge IS characteristic of a vampire and can't really be classified as love.
There are so many things wrong with the Spike/Buffy relationship but I'm sorry we've already gotten kind of off topic. I'm going to cut myself off here.

That's the thing that makes this question kind of impossible to answer though, there are so many ways to define 'love' that there just isn't an answer, it's a matter of opinion.

Stoney
06-01-15, 12:57 PM
Spike believing that his love/feelings for Buffy unsouled couldn't compare to what he feels for her souled just shows that there are degrees of emotional responses I think. But there were established emotions for her beyond just the wish for sexual gratification or he wouldn't have endured Glory's torture and, more clearly, he wouldn't have stayed to look after Dawn. I'm sensing that we have entirely different perspectives on their relationship and this isn't a thread for that so I will leave that there. But I don't agree that it is established that they can't love to any degree. I know there are plenty of examples of human behaviour that I personally think show that people don't love each other, or couldn't do to behave the way they do, but they claim that they do. As you say there is a degree of opinion in there to what you classify and define as love. But I think to say that a soulless creature is limited in the degree to which they can experience the breadth of some emotions is probably fair, but I don't think that means that they can't love on any level.

Cordelia
06-01-15, 08:23 PM
Right, on the subject of Spuffy I agree to disagree and would like to leave it at that.
There is a reason you'll never see me get involved in discussing ships unless it's solely aimed at the one I support. I find ship debating/comparing to be pointless because it's not like you can expect to change anyone's mind, only the characters can do that and I shy away from heated debate. When I address something as an argument I usually embarrass myself because I tend to lose focus on my eloquence.

I prefer to discuss the logic behind a show's concepts, subjects where I can be insightful.
Perhaps vampires can love at some level but I think it's fully supported that it's not at a very deep level.

vampmogs
06-01-15, 09:34 PM
James and Elizabeth were devoted to each other for over a hundred years. Spike and Dru were in a relationship longer than any human. Spike stayed behind and cared for Dawn even after Buffy's death which suggests feelings for Buffy far more complex than just being sexually attracted to her - and got his soul for her, of course. I have to disagree with you entirely that the show supports that vampires don't love on a very deep level. They may express that love in unhealthy ways but we've seen devotion and love as potent as any of the human relationships and a longevity to many vampire relationships that suggests there's something deep there. If it was really as superfluous as you say why would these vampires stay in committed relationships for over a century? Why would Spike risk his life against Glory to save Dawn/Buffy? It'd make no sense.

Honestly, I don't think it's wise to use Angel/Angelus as the basis for how you judge all vampires. I get the impression he's your favourite character, and I think he's great to, but if anything he's an anomaly in the Buffyverse. He had no humanity in him for the Judge to burn but Spike, Dru and Dalton did. He was particularly sadistic and brutal even by vampire standards. Other vamps like James and Spike were surprised and/or disgusted by how easily he'd turn on Darla for his own self preservation when they'd take a stake for the ones they loved. Soulless love is unhealthy and (mostly) is expressed in unhealthy ways but we've seen that it is possible and does exist. Angelus is the anomaly in the extent of his evil and should be treat as such rather than have the other vampire characters judged by his standard. Both shows reinforced again and again that Angel/us was more evil than your average vamp.

jjlewis
24-01-15, 06:17 PM
This is a great question! For me, the most powerful demonstration of love is the end of Becoming. Buffy sacrifices Angel to save the world because she loves her friends and her family, and she needs to protect them. It breaks her heart, but she does it - she can't even share the decision with Angel, so she carries all the weight herself. It's amazing!

Cassiopeia
20-09-15, 06:15 AM
This is a great question! For me, the most powerful demonstration of love is the end of Becoming. Buffy sacrifices Angel to save the world because she loves her friends and her family, and she needs to protect them. It breaks her heart, but she does it - she can't even share the decision with Angel, so she carries all the weight herself. It's amazing!

this was the first demonstration of love i thought of too, for the exact same reason! that moment is one of the standout moments of the series that told me (as a new comer) that this show is smthg very special.

of course there are other demonstrations of love throughout the series. xander calling off his wedding to anya because he was afraid he would hurt her. he loved her when he decided that, he loved her after that, he loved her after he saw her with spike, he loved her to her end, but his love for her also created that fear of hurting her, smthg he would never want to do (and coincidentally did by walking out on their wedding).

angel leaving sunnydale despite his love for buffy, so that she could have a chance at a more normal relationship/life. he knew that if he stayed in sunnydale that they would always be a thing, always be in love, and he didn't want her 'damned' to a life in the darkness with him. he wanted her to find love with someone who could take her into the light, provide her children/family, etc. he loved her so much that he walked away so she could have that opportunity.

and there are so many more examples in the buffyverse... wesley taking connor from angel (under the impression that a false prophesy was true) to protect connor and angel.

darla staking herself to save her unborn child

xander stopping dark willow

i think it's difficult to pin point a single most powerful demonstration of love in the buffyverse because any situation where anyone loved someone else and showed it was a great demonstration of love. this show/buffyverse gives me so many feels. it's amazing

MikeB
18-03-16, 03:22 AM
* I maintain that much of AtS s1 through until she died in AtS s4 is because of Jasmine.


* Xander’s actions in “Grave” (B 6.22) were obviously partly selfish given he didn’t want to die.


* Buffy’s choice in “Becoming Part II” (B 2.22) was to send Angel to hell or send Angel and the rest of the world to hell.

Even though it was incredibly selfish of Buffy, hers dying in “The Gift” (B 5.22) was an actual demonstration of the love she had for Dawn given that she literally decided she literally couldn’t live in a world in which Dawn had to die in order to save the world.


* If Xander truly loved Anya, he would have married her.


* Angel never wanted Buffy ‘moving on’ from him. He didn’t leave her ‘for her’. He left her for himself.


__________________________________________________ _

* I’ve always found Angel in “Beauty and the Beasts” (B 3.04) very moving. His natural instinct is to save Buffy and he still loves her after being tortured in hell for 100 years.

- BtVS S8 for Angel is mostly about being able to be with Buffy. Season 9 is Angel’s trying to be able to be with Buffy again.

Guy
23-07-16, 05:10 PM
There are too many to choose from... But one instance that comes to mind is in 'Empty Places', when Willow is with Xander in the hospital, after he lost his eye:

WILLOW:
(holding Xander's hand) So, I guess you're stuck with me then, huh? (tries to sound chipper) Let's order some cherry-flavored off-brand gelatin, and then I think we'll be up for a rousing game of—

XANDER:
I might need a parrot.

WILLOW:
Huh?

XANDER:
Well, to go with the eye patch, to really complete the look. I think I still have that costume from Halloween.

WILLOW:
Yeah, and don't underestimate the impact of a peg leg. Maybe the hospital can hook you up with a nice one. Maybe they have a 2-body-parts for the price of one kind of deal.

XANDER:
Oh, you know what the best part is? No one will ever make me watch jaws 3-D again.

WILLOW:
Yeah, and, (tries to smile) you'll never have to... (tries to stifle her tears as they well up in her eyes, squeezes Xander's hand tighter)

XANDER:
(sighs, looks at Willow as tears well up in her eyes) Oh, Willow... please don't.

Willow looks down, trying to keep her tears from falling. She's desperately trying not to make a scene here, for Xander's sake.


These two have been best friends all their life, and in this scene I can just FEEL it.

KingofCretins
23-07-16, 11:44 PM
Off the top of my head --

Buffy sacrificing herself to save her sister (and, incidentally, the world) -- The Gift
Xander chooses to let Willow kill him first to destroy the world -- Grave

Everything is is almost... quaint by comparison to those grand gestures. The next one that leaps to mind is actually River going for Simon's bag and sealing the blast door in Serenity, but as sacrifices go, it's ambiguous since she immediately 1v100s the Reavers. But still put herself in pretty stupendous danger.

EDIT: I'm obliged to omit Spike in Chosen because... there was really no informed choice on his part as to what would be asked by wearing that amulet, beyond that, he took no more chance going in there than the rest. But I should say him choosing to give up corporeality to save Fred was pretty legit.

TimeTravellingBunny
24-07-16, 01:37 AM
EDIT: I'm obliged to omit Spike in Chosen because... there was really no informed choice on his part as to what would be asked by wearing that amulet, beyond that, he took no more chance going in there than the rest. But I should say him choosing to give up corporeality to save Fred was pretty legit.

But he certainly did decide to stay there with the amulet and burn, once he did know what it was about. And he had no idea that he would be resurrected.

Sosa lola
24-07-16, 08:16 AM
There are a lot of moments where a character sacrifices their life for someone or the world. For example, Xander did it in Inca the Mummy, The Replacement, Triangle and Grave and maybe even more. Buffy does it all the time.

Silver1
24-07-16, 10:18 AM
But he certainly did decide to stay there with the amulet and burn, once he did know what it was about. And he had no idea that he would be resurrected.

Exactly. He could have left at any point and yet he chose to stay and burn. He also knew from the outset that the amulet was an unknown force and yet he still wore it.

Sosa lola
24-07-16, 07:33 PM
Exactly. He could have left at any point and yet he chose to stay and burn. He also knew from the outset that the amulet was an unknown force and yet he still wore it.

I agree. Buffy tried to get him to escape but he refused.

KingofCretins
24-07-16, 08:09 PM
I think Anya in "Two to Go" might deserve some love her... well, maybe not "sacrifice" but tremendous bravery to stay behind at the Magic Box to hold a tiger by its tail, which was not only saving Buffy's life minute to minute but buying escape time for the others.

a thing of evil
24-07-16, 09:47 PM
When Tara refused to tell Glory who the key was.

_Buffy_
13-08-16, 12:36 PM
There are many moments showing love in the show. In fact, this show is pretty much about people's life , and choices, and love and sorrow and anger and even hate / Buffy and Faith in " Becoming 2 " , for instance / .
For me there are two biggest moments :
1. Buffy sacrifices her life for Dawn in " The Gift ".
2. Spike regain his soul in " Grave " . Spike done this, because he loves Buffy so much at first place. Well, he also felt remorse because of AR , but the real reason was his love for Buffy.

NightLady
18-08-16, 12:00 AM
Lots of them! Buffy dying in The Gift and Spike dying in Chosen are the top two for me... well, because they died lol so it's powerful but others come very close: Anya offering her life to bring back those guys, Dawn offering her life to save the world, Angel offering his life to save Darla, Buffy offering her life to save Angel, Tara and Spike risking their life to protect Dawn, Spike fighting for his soul... So many, really! Among these I value Spike's the most because he was soulless, but they are all powerful demonstration of love.

On a side note I couldn't come up with something equally powerful by Willow and Xander :confused:

TimeTravellingBunny
18-08-16, 01:07 AM
Lots of them! Buffy dying in The Gift and Spike dying in Chosen are the top two for me... well, because they died lol so it's powerful but others come very close: Anya offering her life to bring back those guys, Dawn offering her life to save the world, Angel offering his life to save Darla, Buffy offering her life to save Angel, Tara and Spike risking their life to protect Dawn, Spike fighting for his soul... So many, really! Among these I value Spike's the most because he was soulless, but they are all powerful demonstration of love.

On a side note I couldn't come up with something equally powerful by Willow and Xander :confused:
I can think of a couple for Xander immediately - he offers himself to Ampata to drain him, in order to protect Willow, in "Inca Mummy Girl", and he has his big heroic moment at the end of season 6 in "Grave", when he similarly stops Willow, risking his life and letting her use her powers to hurt him, while talking her down from destroying the world.

NightLady
18-08-16, 02:21 AM
I can think of a couple for Xander immediately - he offers himself to Ampata to drain him, in order to protect Willow, in "Inca Mummy Girl", and he has his big heroic moment at the end of season 6 in "Grave", when he similarly stops Willow, risking his life and letting her use her powers to hurt him, while talking her down from destroying the world.

I remember those two episodes but I can't personally count them, not as 'powerful demonstrations of love' at least. The IMG one because as I read (and remember) the scene, it was clearly a bluff on his side. He was stalling for time and hoping that, because of her feelings for him, he could make her understand that what she was doing was wrong, but when it failed he didn't really let her drain him, he didn't go all the way with his offer. He held Ampata away until she became a mummy again.

And in Grave I don't see Xander's actions as risking his life. His life was already at risk given that Willow intentions were to destroy the world (and him with it), so to me he was SAVING his life (and the world with it, of course), not risking it. So, yes it was brave and smart of him (and not so different from what he did with Ampata, coming to think of it!) but I can't see it as a powerful demonstration of love IMO

Dipstick
18-08-16, 08:34 PM
I agree NightLady that I"m also underwhelmed by Xander in Grave. I love Xander/Willow but the whole Crayon Christ Boy loves Darth Rosenberg leaves me ice-cold.

Since people can't come up with Willow moments, I agree that Willow doesn't have a dramatic moment of asking for death or dying to save someone. However, to quote Jed Bartlet, "We don't need martyrs right now. We need heroes. A hero will die for his country, but he'd much rather live for it." I rate Willow giving up a brilliant comfortable Ivy League or Oxford life to fight evil or Willow saying that she'll take care of Tara even if she never recovers from her brainsuck for the rest of her life (and developing a routine of caring for disabled!Tara like that's the likely plan going forward) about as high as any volunteer of death.

NightLady
18-08-16, 09:18 PM
I agree NightLady that I"m also underwhelmed by Xander in Grave. I love Xander/Willow but the whole Crayon Christ Boy loves Darth Rosenberg leaves me ice-cold.

Since people can't come up with Willow moments, I agree that Willow doesn't have a dramatic moment of asking for death or dying to save someone. However, to quote Jed Bartlet, "We don't need martyrs right now. We need heroes. A hero will die for his country, but he'd much rather live for it." I rate Willow giving up a brilliant comfortable Ivy League or Oxford life to fight evil or Willow saying that she'll take care of Tara even if she never recovers from her brainsuck for the rest of her life (and developing a routine of caring for disabled!Tara like that's the likely plan going forward) about as high as any volunteer of death.


I'm not a big fan of Dark Willow and overdramatic scenes usually make me cringe, so I guess that's the main reason I'm not as affected as others by the Willow/Xander interaction in Grave, but I do like both characters and I believe they are both heroes. Almost all characters in the Buffyverse are - some more, some less - and that I think it's undeniable. But this wasn't about heroism, it was about powerful demonstrations of love. So I count Buffy sacrifice in the Gift because she was doing it to save her sister, hence the love toward Dawn. If she had done 'only' to save the world I would have thought of it as a powerful demonstration of heroism, not of love.... I'm not sure I explained myself?

Now, Willow saying she was willing to take care of brainsucked Tara for the rest of her life is indeed a demonstration of love, but to say it's powerful I'd need to SEE her actually doing it, because cinically I believe that there are some things that are easier said than done :p

TimeTravellingBunny
18-08-16, 11:02 PM
I remember those two episodes but I can't personally count them, not as 'powerful demonstrations of love' at least. The IMG one because as I read (and remember) the scene, it was clearly a bluff on his side. He was stalling for time and hoping that, because of her feelings for him, he could make her understand that what she was doing was wrong, but when it failed he didn't really let her drain him, he didn't go all the way with his offer. He held Ampata away until she became a mummy again.

And in Grave I don't see Xander's actions as risking his life. His life was already at risk given that Willow intentions were to destroy the world (and him with it), so to me he was SAVING his life (and the world with it, of course), not risking it. So, yes it was brave and smart of him (and not so different from what he did with Ampata, coming to think of it!) but I can't see it as a powerful demonstration of love IMO
So does that mean that the only way to powerfully demonstrate love is to literally die or try to die for someone?

NightLady
19-08-16, 12:25 AM
So does that mean that the only way to powerfully demonstrate love is to literally die or try to die for someone?

no, of course not. But surely nothing tops dying to save someone you love?

TimeTravellingBunny
19-08-16, 12:59 AM
no, of course not. But surely nothing tops dying to save someone you love?
Not necessarily. You may also want to die for other reasons, such as wanting to be free of pain or responsibility. And it may also be seen as somewhat selfish in a way, because you're leaving the other person/people to grieve for you. It's a matter of perspective.

And it's certainly unhealthy to promote the idea that death is the best evidence of love there is. What's wrong with living and trying to make someone happy?

NightLady
19-08-16, 01:30 AM
Not necessarily. You may also want to die for other reasons, such as wanting to be free of pain or responsibility. And it may also be seen as somewhat selfish in a way, because you're leaving the other person/people to grieve for you. It's a matter of perspective.

And it's certainly unhealthy to promote the idea that death is the best evidence of love there is. What's wrong with living and trying to make someone happy?

You know, I really don't like you suggesting that I'm promoting death as the best evidence of love and I'm confident that those who read are clever enough to understand that that's not the case. Also, didn't you mention as well two instances where Xander was risking to die? Where you promoting something perchance?

That said, everything people do can have a second, hidden and possibly selfish motivation... included living and trying to make someone happy, because in the meanwhile we are making ourself happy as well. So, second guessing why, for example, Buffy jumped in The Gift is a moot point. Fact is that Dawn was going to die and Buffy sacrificed herself to save her. That's a powerful demonstration of love and I personally think that it's "best and/or most powerful" than all the others (along, as I said Spike in Chosen). You don't have to agree with me, of course.

TimeTravellingBunny
19-08-16, 01:57 AM
You know, I really don't like you suggesting that I'm promoting death as the best evidence of love and I'm confident that those who read are clever enough to understand that that's not the case.

no, of course not. But surely nothing tops dying to save someone you love?
:s ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

NightLady
19-08-16, 05:36 PM
So does that mean that the only way to powerfully demonstrate love is to literally die or try to die for someone?

My (short) answer was in reply to yours and I didn't think it was necessary to elaborate and specify that A. I'm talking in the context of the Buffyverse and B. I'm talking of a fictional story and C. I'm answering the question of the thread, which is about THE best etc etc. I thought all these was implied ;)

- - - Updated - - -


:s ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Last night it was too late and I was too annoyed to answer properly, so I'm doing it now.
In post #17 KingofCretins mentions two instances where it occurs that someone willingly sacrifices their life (or risks it) and instead excludes another, Spike in Chosen, on the basis that Spike didn't know he was going to die. So it's implied in his answer that willingness to die is a 'must'. And you pointed out that at one point Spike DID know that he was going to die and still carried on, therefore validating his willing sacrifice as a 'powerful demonstration of love'. With Silver1 and Sosa Lola's endorsement.

In post #19 Sosa Lola explicitly says "There are a lot of moments where a character sacrifices their life for someone or the world.", stating imo that the sacrifice of one's life is the most powerful demonstration of love.

Others have mentioned Buffy's sacrifice in The Gift, Darla's sacrifice to give birth to Connor and in post #22 KingsofCretins credits Anya's actions in Two to Go... even if, as he points out, it maybe wasn't a "sacrifice".

Finally in post #26 yourself listed two episodes about Xander where (in your opinion) it was involved the risk of losing his life. But this I already mentioned to you without getting an answer...

And in spite of all these, you purposefully singled my comment out, twisted my words and took them out of context, claiming that I was unhealthily promoting death as the best demonstration of love. I already said I didn't like it, while tbh hoping that I had misunderstood and that it had just been a wrong choice of words on your side, but you carried on, clearly bent on stressing the argument out (which idk why). Now let me tell you that this argument is not only nasty and rude but also and especially unfair and stupid and I strongly reject it.

Clearly you are missing the fact that fiction often uses this kind of plot and that it does so for a reason.The biggest example that pops to my mind (apart those from the Buffyverse) is Titanic, where there are two powerful demonstration of love: 1. Rose, giving up her seat on the lifeboat, therefore renouncing her possibly only option to save her life and 2. Jack, freezing and dying in the water to let Rose survive. I can confidently say that if the story had been written differently, with for example both of them going on the lifeboat and being rescued, it would of course have been a nice love story but it wouldn't have been just as powerful. The greatness of their love is portrayed in their willingness to sacrifice their lives for the other and... you know what? I've never heard no one say that it was unhealthy or that it was a promotion of death. If I had I would have thought that it was... stupid :D

The focal point in my (and others') choice of those episodes as "most powerful (NOT best, mind you) demonstration of love" is not 'death' itself, it's the willingness to sacrifice our most precious value (=life) to save the life of someone we love. That's why I (and no one else I believe) didn't mention, for example, James suicide after Elisabeth's death, because even if love AND 'death' are involved, I don't consider it a "powerful demonstration of love", I see it as an act of desperation and surrender. Which is different.

Finally, 'promoting' something would mean to encourage someone to follow a particular line of conduct, which firstly I hardly believe I have the power and the influence to do and last but not least, in this specific case implies that faced with the risk of losing a loved one, someone would sacrifice themself NOT out of love for that loved one but... because they have read on this thread that this is the best demonstration of love?

So, as I said... stupid :down:

TimeTravellingBunny
19-08-16, 09:28 PM
snip
You seem to see my previous post as some kind of personal attack on you. It was not. It was merely me noticing the trend that's shaped up in this thread, how we all kept giving examples of people dying or being willing to die. Your comments that a character risking their life but not being ready to die isn't enough, and that surely nothing beats dying for someone as a demonstration of love, was just a culmination of that. Now, you're right that you're not the first who started that line of thinking. I just stopped and thought at one point: "Why are we just listing people dying/willing to die as examples of love?"

Now how you interpreted that to mean that I was accusing you of badly influencing the young'uns or something, as if I were a member of one of parental guidance groups or whatever they're called, is a bit of a headscratcher.

NightLady
19-08-16, 09:44 PM
You seem to see my previous post as some kind of personal attack on you. It was not. It was merely me noticing the trend that's shaped up in this thread, how we all kept giving examples of people dying or being willing to die. Your comments that a character risking their life but not being ready to die isn't enough, and that surely nothing beats dying for someone as a demonstration of love, was just a culmination of that. Now, you're right that you're not the first who started that line of thinking. I just stopped and thought at one point: "Why are we just listing people dying/willing to die as examples of love?"

Now how you interpreted that to mean that I was accusing you of badly influencing the young'uns or something, as if I were a member of one of parental guidance groups or whatever they're called, is a bit of a headscratcher.

You can stop scratching your head. As I wrote in my last comment I was hoping "that I had misunderstood and that it had just been a wrong choice of words on your side". Had you said what you are saying now, in answer to my bland "I don't like", I would have understood that your "you are unhealthly promoting death" wasn't directed (only) at me, but you just answered quoting my words proving that my first feeling that you were indeed picking at me was correct. Anyway I said what I had to say and I surely have nothing more to add.

:focus:

Priceless
29-01-18, 04:55 PM
Most of the major demonstrations of love have already been mentioned; Buffy sacrificing herself in The Gift, Xander willing to die to save Willow. On a smaller scale I would like to mention Joyce's acceptance of Dawn, even though she knows this is not her daughter and her memories have been altered. Joyce still accepts this child and treats her with the same love and care that she treats her real child, and that couldn't have been easy. I think Joyce does it because Dawn is a child and is so loving in return, and so needing of being looked after, but also because it's what Buffy wants, and Joyce does it as a show of love for Buffy.

Giles gives up his career in the Watcher's Council because of his love for Buffy in Helpless, and his guilt about what he did. He knows going against the WC wishes will mean he'll lose in material terms, and lose the respect of his peers. To give up so much couldn't have been easy, but he does it because he loves Buffy.

Giles also showed great bravery born out of love in Grave, when he doses Willow with his borrowed magic, no knowing how she'll react. She could have destroyed him then and there, but he took the risk because he loved Buffy and Willow so much he put himself in danger to help save and protect them.

The show is littered with small moments of love and compassion. I think that's one of the reasons the show is still so popular, it isn't mean or cruel, but offers redemption even for the worst of characters.

MikeB
14-04-18, 12:23 AM
All caught up



Anyway, the thread is about “What is the best and/or most powerful demonstration of love in the Buffyverse?”, not a list of all the best and/or most powerful MOMENTS or INCIDENTS of showing love.


I listed Simon and River Tam’s love for each other and Buffy Anne Summers and Willow Rosenberg’s love for each other because of all the sheer evidence of proof of love for each other those two have.


Giles left Buffy in BtVS S6. He betrayed her in BtVS S7 and BtVS S8.

Spike got his soul for Buffy but leaves her in “Chosen” (B 7.22) and doesn’t go back to her until years after AtS S5 and mostly does to save the world. He leaves her again. Buffy does a lot for Spike from BtVS S2 through BtVS S7, but it seems she only first tells him she loves him in “Chosen” (B 7.22).


I didn’t include Spike/Drusilla because I’d have to include Spike & Dru: “Paint the Town Red” and IDW’s Spike miniseries. Without those, I’d place Buffy-Willow over Spike/Dru.




Guy


* For Xander-Willow, I’d place “Grave” (B 6.22) well above “Empty Places” (B 7.19).



KingofCretins


* Buffy in “The Gift” (B 5.22) committed suicide for herself. She was leaving the world without an ‘active’ Slayer. Buffy couldn’t handle losing Dawn after losing Angel, Riley, Joyce, etc.


* Xander in the “Grave” (B 6.22) would have died if the world died. In ways, it’s less loving than Spike in “Intervention” (B 5.18).


* Spike died for himself in “Chosen” (B 7.22) and Spike simply needed someone to call the Scooby Gang. Not saving Fred in “Hellbound” (A 5.04) would be incredibly dic)ish given she was the only one of the Fang Gang helping him.

____________________________________

* Anya was a vengeance demon again in “Two to Go” (B 6.21) and could have teleported to safety. Anyway, that might be an act of bravery and/or loyalty to the Scooby Gang, not one of the biggest demonstrations of love in the Buffyverse.

Tara with Glory if far above that.



NightLady

* Anya offered her life in “Selfless” (B 7.05) out of guilt and Buffy would have killed her anyway.


* Dawn offers her life in “The Gift” (B 5.22) because there was no other valid choice—the world was going to end anyway.


* Angel’s offering his life to save Darla is because of Jasmine.


* Buffy was risking herself to save Angel in “Graduation Day Part II” (B 3.22)—she wasn’t offering her life.



Dipstick

* Cordy was willing to take care of fish Xander. That rates higher than Willow taking care of Glorified-Tara (until probably Willow is magically powerful enough to fix Tara).


* Willow stayed with Buffy after BtVS S3 for the same reason Willow stayed with Buffy in “The Harvest” (B 1.02). Buffy’s fight is to literally save the world. Willow’s staying in Sunnydale was because Willow wanted to become more magically powerful and wanted to continue helping Buffy save the world.