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Natalya
14-03-14, 03:02 AM
For those of you interested, I have a blog that discusses various topics including Buffy!
Check it out!
http://dictatorsatthedentist.wordpress.com/2014/03/13/from-school-hard-to-chosen-spikes-integral-role-in-buffy/.

There is also a corresponding Facebook page, which you are welcome to like!
https://www.facebook.com/DictatorsAtTheDentist?ref=hl

Rihannon
14-03-14, 06:08 AM
I enjoyed your insight into the Buffy/Spike parallelisms. Welcome to the forum!

Stoney
14-03-14, 09:18 AM
Some interesting stuff. I think Angel's appearance was purely and simply because the series was ending, he was still in the sister show and it was a nod to fans of the character and those who had been there from the beginning who would just like a surprise reappearance from the early shows. I agree that there would have been better ways to spend that time but I'm not sure it's fair to say it negatively affected Spike's moment (although I'm not a fan of Chosen). You can argue that Buffy openly stating that Spike is important to her directly to Angel is significant affirmation and her then 'sending' Angel away and acknowledging Spike as a champion to select gives weight to where she sees he has come from School Hard.

If you haven't watched AtS I can highly recommend it having only just finished it but you would have to grit your teeth in S5 because Spike is mostly used badly and, imo, disrespected in how they present him most of the time. S1-4 is brilliant though and S3 and S4 in particular are excellent.

We have literally just started a rewatch of BtVS from the beginning which you could join in the discussions of (you can find it here (http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?19768-BtVS-rewatch-SEASON-1)). Having only just finished watching it you probably wouldn't need to 'rewatch' literally, the transcripts of the shows are also on the site if you wanted a glance to refresh your memory.

See you around the board. :)

vampmogs
14-03-14, 12:15 PM
I appreciate that if you're not a fan of the character then Angel's cameo will have little value to you, but his character was important to Buffy, to the show, to the Buffyverse, to the actors involved, and to a lot of fans. I don't feel it does a disservice to Spike's journey but, frankly, even if I did, I don't think Spike's story should dictate whether Angel can make a cameo or not.

Like it or not, Angel was pretty significant to the show in S1-S3 and he's very important to Buffy's character. He's also the protagonist of BtVS's sister show. I feel a cameo by the character is justified on the basis of those three things alone, let alone, as I said, the actors personal feelings about the matter or the significant amount of fans wanting him to be in the finale. Personally I enjoy the character but objectively speaking I also think the finale is a perfect time to reflect back on the show's history.

But I really don't get how Angel's cameo negatively effects Spike's journey in any way. At the end of the day it was Spike who wore the amulet and Spike who sacrificed himself to save the world. That's what S7 had been building from since the beginning and Angel's brief appearance didn't rob him of that whatsoever. The only way I can see it negatively impacting Spike's journey is if you wanted Angel to be irrelevant to Buffy and for Spike to be exclusively in her heart but that's just not Buffy. And as Stoney says, even then, Buffy point-blank told Angel that Spike was in her heart, defended Spike ("He'll make a difference"), and made Spike her Champion.

I do think the main reason for Angel's cameo was fan-service. But I don't see what's so bad about that. It's the final episode of the show ever so what better time is there to reward loyal fans and make them happy? Is that so bad? Sure, if you're not a fan of Angel's character or B/A then it will have little interest to you but this fandom is/was large and varied and there was plenty of time dedicated to Spike and B/S too. Just like there was a homage to the Core Four in the hallway scene. Not to mention that Whedon originally had wanted Seth Green/Oz to reappear as well. And aside from the fan-service it actually does lay the groundwork for Spike's move to AtS by establishing the hostility between Angel and Spike and filling Angel in about Spike's soul and relationship with Buffy, so it was actually necessary in that respect.

I do understand the complaints that the time spent on Angel's cameo could have been used to properly reconcile Buffy/Giles or give Xander some more material etc. But I would say that's a bigger problem of S7 overall and has little to do with Angel. And I'm open to the idea that the writers should have used DB to appear as Angelus/The First but whilst that would have been fantastic to see, ultimately I don't think it would have been as satisfying as seeing the two actual characters interact one last time.

Stoney
14-03-14, 12:55 PM
And aside from the fan-service it actually does lay the groundwork for Spike's move to AtS by establishing the hostility between Angel and Spike and filling Angel in about Spike's soul and relationship with Buffy, so it was actually necessary in that respect.

I do think you are right that this background does tie in well for Angel's problems with there being a second souled vamp, him knowing about it but not telling his team, but generally in AtS 5 they behave as if the S7 of Spike and Spuffy don't exist, aside from the most basic details of him fighting with her/dying in the hellmouth. Angel in AtS 5 focuses on S6 of Spuffy, which he has no reason to know about, and, for reasons I think do work within their dynamic, Spike lets him do that. But for AtS only viewers that really diminishes Spike/Spuffy and that 'lesser' view is backed up with other aspects of overplaying some negative behaviours and some bad characterisation at other points. All of which just makes him look more shallow/brash than he is and his relationship with Buffy less complex than it was. It is frustrating because all that was smattered with some good stuff and some of the negative points about him were fair and allowed for some character development, it was just in and around some corrosive rot.

Anyway, I would agree you make a fair point that even though the time could have been used elsewhere, 'better spent' in some people's view perhaps, the season in itself could have rectified those issues/opportunities and there was validity to having such an important character to the verse dropping by for the finale. I quite like the idea of Angelus as The First but I think his cameo as is probably works better.

MikeB
14-03-14, 03:48 PM
First off, Angel's appearance wasn't for "fan service" unless one is simply referring to Sarah Michelle Gellar, David Boreanaz, and James Marsters -- all who had various reasons why they wanted Buffy and Angel to be together at the end of BtVS.

The viewers were mostly to about-all Buffy/Spike people. About everyone watching "Chosen" (B 7.22) assumed Buffy and Angel were going to end up together and Buffy/Spike and Spike were going to be pushed to the side -- this simply because of things such as David Boreanaz being in the final two episodes, the series finale pretty much being exclusively promoted with BUFFY AND ANGEL ARE BACK TOGETHER AND WILL BE TOGETHER FOREVER, and the ending of "End of Days" (B 7.21). I'm a Spike/Drusilla person and was never a "'shipper" and I seriously considered not watching "Chosen" (B 7.22). I assume millions of Buffy/Spike fans didn't watch the series finale. Anyway, the series finale was relatively low rated.

Secondly, without Spike/James Marsters, there would be no AtS s5.


* For the actual TV series and canon, Angel's appearance only had the affect of Spike ultimately rejecting Buffy and dying instead of being with her. "Touched" (B 7.20) had Buffy waking up with Spike on one side of her and Buffy looking on the other side of her. This already 'told' us that Buffy would prefer to be with both Spike and Angel. Buffy's kissing Angel, Buffy's basking, Buffy's entire speech to Angel regarding her relationships with Spike and Angel, and Buffy's shooing Angel away were not news.

The only important thing regarding her relationships with Angel and Spike is that Drusilla didn't show up in "Chosen" (B 7.22). Spike's choices simply were: join with First Evil or fight with Buffy and then leave her afterward because he can't countenance her still loving Angel. Well, we already knew that Spike apparently doesn't want to sire Buffy, so even if the First Evil's plan was for him to sire Buffy and lead the Turok-han army, Spike doesn't want to do that. So, he simply decides to help defeat the First Evil and leave Buffy afterward. Having Drusilla there if she's evil would at least give Spike somewhat of a choice. First Drusilla was used on Spike, Spike was happily reminiscing about his relationship with Drusilla to First Buffy, Spike had that lovely flashback in "Lies My Parents Told Me" (B 7.17), etc. And if Drusilla came back to him and was somehow now souled and 'good', he would have likely helped defeat the First Evil and then gone off with Drusilla.

As-if, Angel's appearance only was to have an excuse for why Spike would be on AtS s5 instead of with Buffy. The whole 'Triangle' thing is only there because it was assumed SMG would do 5 AtS s5 episodes and those episodes would be more anticipated -- i.e. get higher ratings -- if a 'Triangle' were still in place. Apparently, before AtS s5 was a go and James Marsters was going to be in it, Joss Whedon's script for the series finale was more "Buffy/Spike".


* Finally, the 'Angel was a big part of BtVS S1-S3 and a big part of the Buffyverse' reason given "Not Fade Away" (A 5.22) is utter nonsense. Angel was Buffy's boyfriend. That he had a spin-off is irrelevant given that spin-off only existed because of BtVS, UPN declined to get AtS, and AtS s5 wasn't going to exist without Spike. The ONLY reason Angel and Spike ended up fully working together and Spike decided to be part of Angel's stupid plan in "Not Fade Away" (A 5.22) is because both thought Buffy was with the Immortal. Buffy and Co. and Willow not being in "Not Fade Away" (A 5.22) to help defeat the Wolfram and Hart army made no sense.

For those that hadn't watched AtS, Angel's appearance in BtVS would have -- in canon -- only resulted in badness between Buffy and Spike. Spike was of course going to follow Buffy. Spike of course was going to see Angel there. Buffy wasn't going to immediately brush off Angel and Spike wasn't going to like that. There was no way Angel was going to be allowed to fight with Buffy. Given Spike was going to be on AtS and was going to stay on AtS, there's simply zero way to make that work unless Buffy immediately decided she didn't want to be with either Angel or Spike, wore the amulet herself or had Willow wear it, and had Angel and Spike separated or fighting together.


* For the Angel side we don't get new information. Angel in "I Only Have Eyes for You" (B 1.19) offered to 'join in' on Spike and Drusilla's sex sessions. That he would happily kiss Buffy even though she smells like Spike isn't new info. That he would be seriously threatened by the Buffy/Spike relationship isn't new info. He was there because he thought he could Shanshu and be with Buffy till they die. But only AtS viewers would know this and there was only a 20% crossover audience.


Finally, instead of Angel being there, Riley and the United States Military should have been there. Simply open the Hellmouth, set down a nuclear weapon, and BOOM. The end of the series could have been about Buffy finally being the one to get the governments involved in taking out the vampire and demon threat. And then Buffy would no longer have to be the Slayer or she could simply be directing the worldwide efforts to kill all the demons and vampires.

Rihannon
14-03-14, 06:52 PM
First off, Angel's appearance wasn't for "fan service" unless one is simply referring to Sarah Michelle Gellar, David Boreanaz, and James Marsters -- all who had various reasons why they wanted Buffy and Angel to be together at the end of BtVS.

As vampmogs says, I'm sure there was a lot of Bangel fans that would be expecting him to appear. I suppose the production people were trying to heighten the ratings with Angel's appearance. I remember not being happy of how Spike was being treated at the moment, but I wouldn't consider not watching the finale. Hope is the last thing standing, after all...:)


Secondly, without Spike/James Marsters, there would be no AtS s5.

I'm pretty sure this was the case. Maybe I was biased, but I think I remember some Spike frenzy going on among the fandom...



He was there because he thought he could Shanshu and be with Buffy till they die. But only AtS viewers would know this and there was only a 20% crossover audience.

Well, this is one way to see it. But also, story-wise, they needed some kind of... How does KoC call them? Macguffin? To save the day. I always found the amulet resource way too Deus ex machina, but I get there was no other way to save the day in one episode. And, well, since Spike was the one doing the great immolating thing, I suppose Angel had to play a part. After all, a plausible explanation was needed, and Angel had the access to that kind of things at the moment...

Of course Angel later saying he was aiming for the Shanshu was logical as an explanation, because they had to give one, but at the end of season 7 they needed a narrative resource and using Angel for it was the way it was done.

From the character perspective, Angel had people and responsibilities in his LA life. It would be very immature of him to go chasing ultimate redemption and reward and leaving all the people that depends on him (and his new 'mission') behind. I'm sure he would have considered, but probably didn't really have his heart on it. After all, it wasn't so hard for Buffy to convince him to leave.


Finally, instead of Angel being there, Riley and the United States Military should have been there. Simply open the Hellmouth, set down a nuclear weapon, and BOOM. The end of the series could have been about Buffy finally being the one to get the governments involved in taking out the vampire and demon threat. And then Buffy would no longer have to be the Slayer or she could simply be directing the worldwide efforts to kill all the demons and vampires.

You are so right (I mean, this very well could happen), but it would have been soooo wrong. :xd

vampmogs
14-03-14, 10:57 PM
First off, Angel's appearance wasn't for "fan service" unless one is simply referring to Sarah Michelle Gellar, David Boreanaz, and James Marsters -- all who had various reasons why they wanted Buffy and Angel to be together at the end of BtVS.

Not according to Joss Whedon;

"This exit for Angel was meant to mirror his first exit; him backing off in the darkness. Something hopefully iconic enough, and something to give people hope that Buffy and Angel might one day work out, because *some* fans – now, I realise not many, but there were a few fans who feel that the Buffy/Angel romance was, like, a big deal. And clearly I thought Parker was the most important romantic relationship of her life; other people disagreed; that's fine, I guess they can do that. They care about the Angel thing. Some people care about the Spike thing. I don’t know why we couldn't get Parker in there too, but apparently… whatever. That vocal minority who care about Buffy and Angel meant that we had to do service by him."

Whedon explicitly states that they "had to do service by [Angel]" because of the fans who cared about the character and the B/A relationship. That it was done specifically to give them "hope that Buffy and Angel might one day work out." In other words; fan service.

And, yes, Whedon is clearly being sarcastic when describing B/A shippers as a "vocal minority", being perplexed that they consider B/A "was, like, a big deal", and being sad that nobody rooted for Parker and considered him the most "important romantic relationship in her life."


The viewers were mostly to about-all Buffy/Spike people.

Care to back that up with some statistics? It's pretty well-known that BtVS fandom was hugely divided in S6/S7 and shipper wars were notoriously bad. There were plenty, PLENTY of B/A fans still invested in that relationship and who wanted to see a reunion. There were also plenty of fans absolutely against Buffy/Spike after S6/AR. And, yes, plenty of fans who were hardcore Buffy/Spike shippers too. You cannot possibly know that "mostly to about-all" viewers were "Buffy/Spike people" and the writers clearly felt otherwise. And as someone who began lurking in fandom at that time (I would only occasionally chat on The Bronze in S6) I can distinctly remember that there was many people who were rooting for B/A. As per usual you're just making blanket statements about the fandom that, as they so often tend to do, seem to line up with your views on the show. Funny that.


I assume millions of Buffy/Spike fans didn't watch the series finale.

http://imageshack.com/a/img221/4944/qi9qg.gif (https://imageshack.com/i/65qi9qgg)

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Finally, instead of Angel being there, Riley and the United States Military should have been there. Simply open the Hellmouth, set down a nuclear weapon, and BOOM. The end of the series could have been about Buffy finally being the one to get the governments involved in taking out the vampire and demon threat. And then Buffy would no longer have to be the Slayer or she could simply be directing the worldwide efforts to kill all the demons and vampires.

Ah yes! What a truly inspiring ending that would be for both Buffy and this feminist show; have Riley and his mates swoop in and save the day rendering Buffy, the Scoobies, Spike, and the Potential Slayers utterly unnecessary and the entire season meaningless. What a satisfying conclusion that would have been for Buffy, Willow and Spike's arcs! Sorry but this would have been an absolutely TERRIBLE way to end BtVS, just like it would have been absolutely TERRIBLE to end AtS with Buffy and Willow coming in to save the day in NFA. Sometimes the most "practical" ending isn't always what's best for the story and a writer will go for meaning and heart instead of cold, clinical, boring, matter-of-fact "logic." Nobody watched Buffy's story for 7 years to see her sidelined by a bunch of army guys in her final hour. Nobody watched Angel's story for 5 years to see his and the gang's final battle offloaded to a bunch of non-AtS characters. There's a reason Joss Whedon declined SMG's offer to appear in Not Fade Away and that's because he had enough sense to know that the last episode should focus on Angel, AtS characters and their story. Same goes for Chosen. Having Riley appear and save the day would have most likely gone down in television history as one of the most disappointing and unsatisfying series finales, like, ever.

dorotea
15-03-14, 07:04 AM
Well, that particular blog ( and especially the promise of 'more on why Angel is a douche' discussion) kind of sort of in a nutshell nails it why a shipper perspective is such a mix of explosive, 'emotions'. But of course everybody is entitled to an opinion. Overall I say the veterans of this forum can usually do some nice Angel-bashing, Spike-adoration with more zest. IMHO, Spike in AtS S5 is a very logical continuation of his personality from BtVS S7 . He treats Harmony about as 'well' as he treats Anya, he deals with his new soul by way of dismissing it, he cares about Dana's suffering about as much as he cares about Wood's , and he falls for Lindsey's bunch of lies as easily as he is compelled by the First . He is treated fairly by the writers, and way better than most of the long-term AtS audience wished the newcomer character to 'their' show to be treated.

Stoney
15-03-14, 09:13 AM
Well many on this forum just spent a year rewatching AtS and spent time discussing the whole show together thoughtfully because they are interested in Angel's story not mindlessly 'bashing' him. In S5 Spike was called on his appalling behaviour, Angel was called on his appalling behaviour and both were recognised for their strengths too. Some of what you say is fair, Spike's treatment of Harmony followed his BtVS story and was a negative attitude it was good for him to recognise and address in the season, but in S7 he was hardly disrespectful to Anya when he refused her (false although he didn't know it) advances. He absolutely does not dismiss his soul as he struggles to fight as he used to until pushed by Buffy, not relishing in it the same anymore and he is subdued generally and on occasions when he does talk about his past it is clear he is struggling/upset with his past actions. The Wood situation is complicated, you are right that he is disregarding of how Wood is feeling but the guy just set him up to kill him and violated him by forcing him to behave in a feral way, knowingly breaking how Spike would choose to act as he stated was the point of triggering him rather than confronting who he is now. The First set a trigger in his mind that compelled him to act and 'took over' his body in a way that closed off his conscious mind. That has zero similarity to him wanting to find a way to fight the good fight and cautiously following Lindsey's direction whilst Lindsey deliberately looked to prove his deception and try to manipulate Spike's desire to do good. I don't think Angel is a douche (I missed that comment on the blog), but I would agree that some perspectives are spurred by emotive reactions to characters, often due to shipping perspectives, and fail to understand aspects of the characters/stories and show a lack of depth and judgement or reasonable critique. To my eye, pretty much how you always talk about Spike. But, as you say, everyone is entitled to their opinion and to stick with whatever their perspectives are.

vampmogs
15-03-14, 10:20 AM
How did Spike treat Anya bad? When she came onto him in "Sleeper" he tried to reject her very gently ("It's not that I'm not tempted. Obviously, if things were different, you're a right catch") and seemed genuine when he told her that he didn't intend to hurt her feelings. It's not Spike's fault that Anya took offence to him rebuffing her and what was he supposed to do exactly? Appease Anya by sleeping with her despite the fact he didn't want to? Spike was perfectly within his rights to turn her down.

When she came onto for a second time Spike, again, tried to make his feelings on the matter clear and told her it was strictly two friends going for a drink but she persisted until, yes, he got quite angry with her. And I don't blame him whatsoever. He'd made it clear more than once now that he doesn't want to sleep with her and her unwanted advances were clearly making him uncomfortable.

The only time throughout S7 that Spike behaved badly towards Anya was when he hit her in Beneath You which of course was bad but two super-powered demons having a slugfest isn't exactly uncommon in the Buffyverse. I'd actually argue that Anya treat Spike far worse with her unwanted advances that bordered on harassment, her lack of compassion for him in "Never Leave Me" despite her recent behavior in "Selfless" (and unlike Spike she wasn't brainwashed, I might add), and her total ungratefulness that Spike saved her life from D'Hoffryn's assassin in "Get it Done."

I'm perplexed that one could say his treatment of Anya was apparently an extension of how he behaved towards Harmony. They're not remotely similar, like, at all.

Nina
15-03-14, 12:12 PM
Does anyone know if "more comedy" was another request for Ats season 5? I mean I know that The WB asked for more stand alone episodes, either Spike or Willow and that they cut the budget but was a lighter tone or comedy also a request? Season 5 has four comedy episodes (Life of a Party, Smile Time, Harm's Way and The Girl in Question) while previous seasons had only one. And where they usually 'replace' a character with a similiar character in tone Connor was replaced by Harmony. And there was simply a lot more comedy in other episodes as well. Because if that was the request it could explain why Spike and Angel ended up being a regressed version of themselves (Because I agree with the people above me, Spike's behavior wasn't in the line of BtVS season 7 at all. Angel's behavior was equally off IMO) just for the funny lines and moments. The same could be said about Cordy (who seemed perfectly fine with everything that happened to her) and Connor as well. Cut out most of the drama and character development and focus on the funny lines and scenes. And for a lot of people it worked. If you talk with casual viewers a lot of people consider Ats season 4 a horrible season while they love season 5. The reason almost always seems to be the Angel & Spike scenes (okay and the lack of Connor is also a major reason for many).

Although Whedon did admit (in a commentary of Conviction?) that he enjoyed DB's talent for comedy a lot and perhaps he just got carried away when he saw how well DB and JM did comedy together. That could also explain Angel's obnoxious behavior in 'Chosen'. Anyway I think it didn't work all that well. But then I'm a big fan of Angel's deadpan and dry humor he had in the early seasons while I find the obnoxious Angel not nearly as funny.

vampmogs
15-03-14, 12:38 PM
I'm fairly sure the WB did request the show to be "lighter" and that ME tried to accommodate that not just with the comedy but also by, literally, making the show lighter. I may be remembering this wrong, but I'm fairly certain I read a quote from one of the writers that said part of the reason they came up with the Necro-tempered glass was so that the sets could actually be lit brighter.

In the DVD commentary for "Chosen" Whedon does state that he considers DB at his best when he's being petty -- "And David doing my all-time favourite thing, which is being petty. Whenever Angel is petty I think he's at his best." It's no secret that he was definitely charmed by DB's comedic skills and I think Whedon liked deconstructing Angel's character or at least, as Riley would say, the "billowy coat king of pain" trope with humor. So I do think S5 would have had a lot of comedy regardless but it definitely was also to appease the network as well.

That said, I don't personally feel S5 was anymore humorous than S1/S2 or that if it was it was only minimally so. Those earlier seasons, particularly S1, had a lot of levity to them as well back when Cordelia and Wes were still very much comedic characters. It's no coincidence the only comedic episode of S4 happened to be "Spin the Bottle" which saw both Cordy and Wes reverted back to their personas prior to the growth they had experienced mainly in S3-S4. Obviously their arcs started before S3 but that's when Wes really became a darker character and Cordy lost a lot of her snark and "ditziness." Take for instance S2, which certainly went to some very dark places, but still ended on the very campy and at times very humorous Pylea arc. I think with S5 the change in tone was just jarring because the show had got progressively darker in S3-S4 and the fresh start just provided more opportunities to add a little levity again.

It also comes down to what we define as "comedy episodes." For example, in S1 I would certainly consider "Sense and Sensitivity" a comedic episode but based on the tone of the scenes I would also slot "Expecting" and maybe even "Rm w/a Vu" in that category as well. Sure, the episodes also contained some serious moments but none more so than "The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco." In S2 I would probably consider "Guise will be Guise", "Disharmony" and maybe even "Over the Rainbow" as comedy episodes as well. I base it mainly on how many of the scenes have a humorous tone and if they make up the majority of the episode.

Nina
15-03-14, 03:46 PM
Thank you for answering Mogs. :) I think it's a pity that they didn't stay closer to Angel's personality... Angel was one of the few introverts on the show and as an introvert myself I think that this is one of the reasons why I fell in love with the character in Ats season 1. Season 5!Angel doesn't do it for me... season 3!Angel was already a bit much but at least episodes like 'Couplet' did end with the Angel as we knew him before. You're right that the Wes and Cordy episodes in the early seasons were extremely light hearted (although I wouldn't call each of them comedy episodes). But I think the key is 'balance'. They balanced out Angel back in the days when he was so quiet. Also in the first two seasons the focus was on Angel alone thus on the more serious character. Season 5 just lacked that balance IMO. So did season 4 btw and perhaps that is the reason why so many fans are devided about those last two seasons.

Skippcomet
15-03-14, 09:51 PM
It's been my impression over his time here that MikeB has very little interest in BtVS's feminist themes and that he thinks every season finale should have been concluded in the most practical terms possible, save for that time he expressed disappointment that Xander talked Willow out of destroying the world instead of Buffy because he thought it was somehow insulting to her position as "star" of the show. Or the times he has insisted that Spike cast a spell offscreen to trap Acathla inside the mansion and thus was actually the one to save the world instead of Buffy. If MikeB thinks I'm in error and that he actually does respect the feminist themes of the show, I would appreciate it if he made that clear and I would apologize to him.

Jack Shaftoe
16-03-14, 02:47 PM
To be fair, I am a bit confused as to how ex-boyfriend number one and ex-boyfriend number two saving the day is any more feminist than ex-boyfriend number three saving the day. At least Riley presumably wouldn't have needed the help of the Big Bad from another TV show...

KingofCretins
16-03-14, 04:48 PM
Joss says Parker is her true love, that's enough for me.

My complaint about Angel in "Chosen" was that maybe they should have contrived a better reason for him to be there. They could have done a lot more with his appearance, maybe broadened the scope on the premise that they want to pay homage to his importance to the whole show, not just to Buffy the character. Have him actually meet Dawn, maybe reconcile with Xander, bond with Giles (how about an epic Season 1 callback to their exchange about vampire in love with a Slayer being maudlin, maybe them looking askance at Spike and Buffy?) etc -- things of a series finale nature. Have him in the battle but up in the corridor so he isn't around for the Spuffy moment of glory.

Reddygirl
16-03-14, 07:50 PM
When I first watched Chosen, I really was unhappy with it, the Angel appearance did seem out of place, especially given what had just happened to Angel. I know Joss expressed how hard it was to write the B/A scene and it was Marti who gave him some suggestions.

After seeing Chosen many more times the way Angel is portrayed makes more sense. Angel is the King of Compartmentalization, he is able to shut down emotionally to deal with another situation cropping up. So it's not as jarring to see him make with the funny and pettiness on subsequent viewings.

Imo the B/A scene doesn't undercut the Spuffy stuff at tne end at all because the Buffy and Angel scene did have an air of jokiness about it, Joss made the decision not to play the theme music, which would have made the scene more romantic and he chose to put Angel in at the beginning rather an the much more emotional end.

I've been sort of MIA in the last couple of months but with the new comic coming out on Wednesday I have to get back in the habit of checking this site everyday.

vampmogs
17-03-14, 08:00 AM
To be fair, I am a bit confused as to how ex-boyfriend number one and ex-boyfriend number two saving the day is any more feminist than ex-boyfriend number three saving the day.

Because Buffy, Willow and the Potentials weren't rendered unnecessary by Spike/the amulet. In Chosen it was a combined effort ("You beat them back, now it's time for me to do the cleanup") whereas Riley and his mates launching a nuke down into the Hellmouth doesn't require the Scoobies at all. Spike wouldn't have lasted long enough for the amulet to kick in had it not been for Buffy and the Potentials beating the Ubervamps back. Besides, it'd just be awful storytelling to end S7 with Riley randomly showing up to save the day whereas Buffy sharing her power, Willow overcoming her darkness, and Spike sacrificing himself, all of which were necessary to defeat The First, wrapped up the 3 main character arcs the season had been building towards. The conclusion of their stories actually had relevance to what the season had been about, Riley showing up out of nowhere does not. Not to mention it'd pretty damn lame to watch Buffy twiddling her thumbs in the final episode whilst Riley took care of the slaying. The show is called "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", after all.


Joss says Parker is her true love, that's enough for me.

My complaint about Angel in "Chosen" was that maybe they should have contrived a better reason for him to be there. They could have done a lot more with his appearance, maybe broadened the scope on the premise that they want to pay homage to his importance to the whole show, not just to Buffy the character. Have him actually meet Dawn, maybe reconcile with Xander, bond with Giles (how about an epic Season 1 callback to their exchange about vampire in love with a Slayer being maudlin, maybe them looking askance at Spike and Buffy?) etc -- things of a series finale nature. Have him in the battle but up in the corridor so he isn't around for the Spuffy moment of glory.

Part of the WB/UPN negotiations were that they only had DB for a limited period of time. In the DVD commentary Joss says that they only had him for "7 hours." So unfortunately it really wasn't possible for Angel to stick around for the battle or have lengthy conversations with anybody else as well as Buffy. Whedon said it was incredibly difficult just to get through the ten pages he had written in such a short period of time. They basically had to resort to "radio with faces" and very standard lighting under the time constraints so I can't imagine them finding the time to have Angel interact individually with Xander, Giles, Dawn etc.

MikeB
01-04-14, 02:08 AM
vampmogs

* I remember Joss Whedon also saying that it was his idea to end BtVS in BtVS S7 and yet I consider all the actual evidence is that SMG is the only reason why BtVS ended in BtVS S7.

I remember that David Boreanaz was very local in the media about wanting to be in BtVS’s series finale. I remember that SMG was saying that she wanted BtVS to end with Buffy and Angel going off in the sunset together. I remember that James Marsters wanted Buffy and Angel to end up together because he was still upset about how the Buffy/Spike stuff in BtVS S6 was done.


* Calling the Buffy/Angel stuff in “End of Days” (B 7.21) and “Chosen” (B 7.22) “fan service” implies that one believes that’s what the general audience member wanted and/or most of the audience wanted.


* I remember that Buffy/Angel fans were a minority of the BtVS viewers. I remember that the Buffyverse audience was only 50/50 when including the AtS viewers. I remember most of BtVS S7 viewers supported Buffy/Spike above Buffy/Angel.


* I refer to the viewers. I wasn’t on Boards until 2005.


* From my memory, ALL of the BtVS writers in BtVS S7 were B/Sers. Including Joss Whedon.


* The Internet fandom is not a representation of the viewers.


* The ratings went down after BtVS S3. Obviously, a lot of this was due to Buffy/Angel fans, Angel fans, and Cordelia fans who stopped watching BtVS. Ratings went up in BtVS S5 largely because Buffy/Spike was being ramped up and most thought it was going to happen in BtVS S5. BtVS S6 was put on a new network and the viewers knew Buffy/Spike was happening. The UPN got a lot new viewers. Obviously about all of these were Buffy/Spike fans and Spike fans. Many of the Willow/Tara and/or Tara fans boycotted the show after BtVS S6 and that is part of the reason the ratings went down in BtVS S7.

The last time before “End of Days” (B 7.21) Buffy and Angel were on screen together was in “Forever” (B 5.17). Around 4.9M people in the United States watched the series finale of BtVS. The series finale was promoted as “Buffy and Angel are going to get back together!” Unless about no Buffy/Angel ‘shippers – meaning anyone who preferred Buffy/Angel to Buffy/Spike or Buffy/Riley – who stopped watching BtVS watched “Chosen” (B 7.22), the relatively low ratings are obviously because many viewers who were watching BtVS S6 and BtVS S7 didn’t watch “Chosen”.

Essentially, the only two possibilities is that Buffy/Angel is not much of a draw and that Buffy/Spike ‘shippers watched “Chosen” even though it was assumed Buffy/Angel was going to end the series and that Buffy/Spike and Spike was going to be brushed to the side or those millions of Buffy/Angel ‘shippers – including most of the AtS viewers – who stopped watching BtVS after BtVS S3 or after or hadn’t watched BtVS before did watch “Chosen” and millions of Buffy/Spike ‘shippers didn’t watch “Chosen” because they didn’t want to see BtVS ending with Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike and Spike being brushed to the side.


* Angel brought the amulet and Spike wore it. There isn’t much difference between that and Riley saving the day in terms of the feminism. “Not Fade Away” (A 5.22) is a separate subject, but Buffy and Willow being in that episode makes more sense than Angel being in “Chosen”.


* By the way, you seem to think it was perfectly fine for Angel to be in “Chosen” (B 7.22) and then attack the argument that Buffy and Willow would make sense being in “Not Fade Away” (A 5.22) and gloss over that I said Riley being in “Chosen” would make more sense in-verse than Angel being in “Chosen”.

________________________________________________

* Anya did have a point that Spike has a “Get out of jail free card” from Buffy.

________________________________________________

* There simply isn’t much difference from Angel bringing the amulet and Riley bringing a nuke other than how it would affect Buffy/Spike.


* It seems you wouldn’t have minded Angel being in “End of Days” (B 7.21) and “Chosen” (B 7.22) even more than he was.



dorotea

* Spike’s been treated “better” than Angel since BtVS S3.



Stoney

* Spike fought to save the bugs’ lives. Angel signed the Fang Gang up to Wolfram and Hart. And with his current “girlfriend” in a coma, he goes to Sunnydale to try to get with Buffy again. How is Angel not a “douc_e”?



Nina

* The WB didn’t require “more comedy” for AtS s5 [or for it to be “lighter”]. AtS s5 is probably funnier than previous AtS seasons simply because Mercedes McNab can do comedy, they did a Lorne episode, Angel and Spike have always had a great dynamic and chemistry, etc.



KingofCretins

* Angel’s appearance in “Chosen” (B 7.22) wasted enough time as it is. His talking to Dawn, Giles, Xander, etc. would have wasted even more time. And it would have meant confrontations between Spike and Angel and between Buffy and Spike. Angel’s important in BtVS was to be a love interest to Buffy and to help her in her slaying. He simply wasn’t needed after “Forever” (B 5.17).



Reddygirl

* The Buffy/Angel stuff in “Chosen” (B 7.22) did undercut Buffy/Spike as it’s mostly used as why Spike decides to die instead of be with Buffy, why Spike ends up in Los Angeles, why Angel doesn’t help Spike become corporeal and instead wants to rid of Spike, and why Spike stays in Los Angeles instead of go be with Buffy.

sybil
11-05-14, 04:16 PM
I am a B/A shipper. Period. Why? Because I never “bought it” that Spike ever loved Buffy until the very end in “not being/being” as shown in “Chosen.” His own needs *to me * always were about his own “hunger” to love and to be loved. “I am not that man” is wisdom, but it doesn’t mean he is “entitled” to a romantic life with Buffy—his story is really about “freedom,” if you buy Angel’s is about “free will..” And I obviously see it is “family, ” and the agenda of existential isolation and shaping meaning—aka “helping the helpless” is not a “numbers game” that shapes meaning by “stillness” in “sanctuary,” while “active principle” in “joyful engagement” is “keep loading the truck.”

I think NFA failed his mythic journey and was successfully done in “After the Fall”—and Joss hated that ending—no surprise, as I hate Joss’s finales, pretty much all of them, ever. He writes the “never ending story” and I actually prefer “the implied promises” to be completed. Beginning, middle, end. Even if “a happy ending” is not promised, but in the story of Buffy and Angel, the implied promise of “becoming” (an adult aka “normal/mortal”) promises” happily ever * after *” So I will continue to cheer “the end of the world” or the “correct * 3rd death—almost made it in season 8! Thank you.

Yes, Buffy, to me, was a Ulysses figure, who had come “home” and “shared her knowledge” and succeeded in her “joyful engaging” as is the warrior’s way, and in preserving life, through killing “death”: the vampires. Spike got his transfiguring “shanshu” correctly (except the “evil” necklace).

However, ultimately, Buffy is the tragic hero, for her story is “becoming”—it may be told as beginning/ending or the “middle way,” but “eventually she must “become” an adult, while ever becoming “herself,” which requires “enlightenment.” That means, in using death for change, as does life, itself, she must destroy the world of childhood or die the 3rd death.

Angel is actually not tragic—the noir genre keeps him “stuck” as a vampire, but his mythic underpinnings are in the seeds that were laid in *his * calling and actual “killing of his father/mother” Darla. Why the whole story of ATS is so (eye rolling) Oedipal to me, despite all the other myths, of Osiris/Buffy and Isis/Angel or even in the Norse myths that included Spike. (Recall Loki ended up “top dog”—ha!) and so began the Age of Man.

My hopes for Buffy are simply that she destroy the world or die her third death and in the union of opposites to do it. My reasoning is based on why “myths” last through the ages, and why B/A is actually mythic. Buffy/Spike are “same” and it wasn’t until “Chosen” did the “correct” union of opposites occur. Spike took the role of “Shiva.” Buffy destroyed “home” Buffy was shown dancing on skulls, yet a “destroyer” of death (the vampires), and joined her “children”/slayers. (Kali the Mother/Destroyer).

Death is the means for change. I believe that is adulthood—why those who “die” or adults are simply not shown is because of “entering” that world in the great story of “becoming.”

I was thrilled that the worstt/best of Angel was the episode “Home” (one of the most hated) The spiritual understanding to return “home” isn’t going to “Sunnydale,” but to the balance “shoulder to shoulder” of male and female principles within the self. I loved that. But we have to see that Buffy herself “sent away humanity” and that is the big failure of “Chosen” to the successful conclusion of “Graduation” in season 3. So what are we actually waiting for thereafter? Actually, it is Buffy who labors under “a curse” that is called the “human condition.”

It is not secret I hate the word “champion,” because a. free will issues are displaced; b. the champion is a mercany aka can be “bought” for cause and is * not * the “warrior’s way.” (Even ronin. It is again, the union of opposites, to physically and spiritually “joyfully engage.” Which is why “passive principle/still/zen Angel was shown “let’s go to work.” And yet failed me utterly because his “heart” was *not * present—but sent away, not to mention “female principle” of dumping rain on him as if “heaven’s baptism” is soulless.

As for “Chosen” being a low-rated finale, I can only say, I watched BTVS on WB, (CW) and didn’t’ have access to UPN. I never saw seasons 6-7 until I got the DVDs. Spike is “still” (the laughter at the edge of death, the forever moment) and Angel’s finale is “active principle”—a reversal of roles, actually. Further, technically speaking, Angel’s shanshu seems to be in Connor, while Spike (mythically) accomplished the same union of opposites (spiritually/mythically) to accomplish Shanshu in “Chosen” (but for the ‘soul trapper’—and the journey to gain a body: “what he was before.” A vampire with a soul, to show his journey wasn’t finished, just as Buffy’s “I was done” in season 5, was not the end of “the hero’s journey.”

As for the finale of Chosen or of NFA, the “last showing” of our titular heroes utterly failed me. I already said that Graduation was inclusive of humans, and Angel’s story of “family” started with humans and left him with monsters.just.like.him. Just “ugn.”

HUGS!
sybil

- - - Updated - - -

Edited because it "double posted."

MikeB
21-09-18, 07:03 PM
All caught up.

All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.




* Given BtVS S8, Season 9, and even Season 10, Season 11, and Season 12, has your regard for Angel’s showing up in “Chosen” (B 7.22) and how that ‘played out’ changed?


I consider Buffy simply grossly underestimated Spike’s reaction to hers still having feelings for Angel.

By getting his soul back, Spike was informing Buffy in no uncertain terms that he was permanently choosing her over Drusilla. He’d never casually mention the idea of essentially having Drusilla and Buffy literally sexily fighting over her while he watches and enjoys.

Buffy in “Becoming Part II” (B 2.22) already knows how Spike feels about his lady love still being attracted to Angel.

Even if one wants post-Season 9 to always be canon, it’s still several years after “Chosen” (B 7.22) before Buffy/Spike have sex again and then they break up after Season 11 and don’t even end up together by the end of Season 12. And if the IDW stuff is canon, Spike including in AtS S5 has had perhaps dozens or more lovers after “Chosen”.

bespangled
05-10-18, 05:13 AM
I never liked the collision of stories between the 2 shows. Angel stood with his son's blood pouring down his hands in the afternoon. He was all healed and flirting with Buffy a few hours later. Yes, even if Connor was all better that kinda seems cold to the point of psychopathy. Let's see - mortgage my soul, kill my son, wipe everyone's memories - oh, and run down to bask with my former honey.

And I love Angel that's why this bothers me.

This also bothers me:
ANGEL
Someone ensouled, but stronger than human. A champion. As in me.

BUFFY
Or me.

ANGEL
No. I don't know nearly enough about this to risk you wearing it. Besides, you got that real cool axe-thing going for you.

***

BUFFY
No. You're not gonna be in this fight. (walks away)

ANGEL
(cuts her off) Why the hell not?

BUFFY
'Cause I can't risk you.

It has been presented to me as Buffy and Angel love each other too much to risk each other, so they gave it it to Spike. I can see how someone would see that - in fact that's what I saw the first time through. Now it doesn't matter to me even if this was part of their subconscious choices. Spike had a chance to choose redemption, and that's what really matters to me.

Priceless
05-10-18, 05:24 AM
It has been presented to me as Buffy and Angel love each other too much to risk each other, so they gave it it to Spike. I can see how someone would see that - in fact that's what I saw the first time through. Now it doesn't matter to me even if this was part of their subconscious choices. Spike had a chance to choose redemption, and that's what really matters to me.


I think a lot of fans read it like that - Buffy can't risk Angel, but she's happy to risk Spike. But I like read this along with the Buffy and Spike conversation in First Date, when he offers to leave and she can't bear to see him go. She's happy to send Angel away during her greatest battle, but she needs Spike by her side. It's Spike that gives her the strength to carry on, not Angel.

GoSpuffy
05-10-18, 03:57 PM
And Buffy's a woman. Women sometimes say what is easy to get men in their lives to listen rather than what is necessarily true. She couldn't really say I'm choosing Spike, I need him there and adding you to the mix will make things awkward. But Angel knew Buffy well enough to ask " is it Spike"? Even he could tell there was more to it than a second front.

TriBel
05-10-18, 04:26 PM
Spike. The decision to send Angel away is a strategic one - he's the second front. The decision to keep Spike with her is instinctual - she doesn't know why she wants him to stay but she does. The decision to send Angel away comes from the head - to keep Spike with her comes from the heart. Sending Angel away is the General's choice - keeping Spike with her is the lover's choice. From her heart and in her heart - done...and unfortunately dusted.

flow
05-10-18, 08:08 PM
I am not very familiar with AtS. What I would like to know, is, if we have any clues as to how much time has passed between Angel cutting the throat of his son with a knife and arriving in Sunnydale. Do we know that those events happened on one and the same day?

I could completely understand him wanting to wear the amulet himself in a "Heck, I`ll dust and be done with it" state of mind. I don`t really see him in a "Oh my god I am whining because I get the curveball for Captain Peroxide" state of mind.

Another thought: In the conversation between him and Buffy they were only talking two options. Either Angel or Buffy gets to wear the amulet. It was never implied, that Buffy could give it to Spike, was it? This bothers me because I could see Angel walking away thinking "Let Spike wear it and be damned" but I don`t see him walking away thinking "Let Buffy wear it and be damned".

How likely was it from Angel`s POV that Buffy would give the amulet to Spike? What do you think?

flow

bespangled
05-10-18, 10:50 PM
I am not very familiar with AtS. What I would like to know, is, if we have any clues as to how much time has passed between Angel cutting the throat of his son with a knife and arriving in Sunnydale. Do we know that those events happened on one and the same day?

I could completely understand him wanting to wear the amulet himself in a "Heck, I`ll dust and be done with it" state of mind. I don`t really see him in a "Oh my god I am whining because I get the curveball for Captain Peroxide" state of mind.

Another thought: In the conversation between him and Buffy they were only talking two options. Either Angel or Buffy gets to wear the amulet. It was never implied, that Buffy could give it to Spike, was it? This bothers me because I could see Angel walking away thinking "Let Spike wear it and be damned" but I don`t see him walking away thinking "Let Buffy wear it and be damned".

How likely was it from Angel`s POV that Buffy would give the amulet to Spike? What do you think?

flow

Exact same day - probably about 4 -6 hours after he held his son and slit his throat.

There are 4 people who could wear the amulet - Buffy, Angel, Faith, and Spike. By the time Angel leaves, I think he knows Buffy won't wear it.

TriBel
05-10-18, 11:42 PM
Exact same day - probably about 4 -6 hours after he held his son and slit his throat.

There are 4 people who could wear the amulet - Buffy, Angel, Faith, and Spike. By the time Angel leaves, I think he knows Buffy won't wear it.

Sorry but "killing" two "sons" in one day - and hoping to keep all the women sounds a bit "primal father" to me. I'm guessing someone's read Totem and Taboo. Kinda legitimates his attraction to God-like entities.

bespangled
06-10-18, 04:56 AM
IMO, it sounds a lot lie souled Angelus. In fact the entire W&H decision has a ruthlessness that I find very Angelus.